>> From the Library of Congress in Washington D.C. ^E00:00:05 ^B00:00:24 >> Good afternoon, my name is Betsy Peterson. I'm the director of the American Folklife Center here at the Library of Congress and on behalf of the Librarian of Congress, Dr. James Billington and Veterans History Project Director, Bob Patrick. I want to welcome you all here today. I also want to welcome the veterans that are here in the audience and if you are here, please stand or wave and -- and let us recognize and show our appreciation to you all. Any veterans here? Thank you. Thank you very much for your service. I would also like to thank our moderator and the panelists for accepting the invitation to share their experiences and expertise with us today on -- in observation of National Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Awareness Day. But first a little bit of background information before we turn everything over to our esteemed panelists, about the American Folklife Center and the Veterans History Project. The American Folklife Center was founded in 1976 by Congress to preserve and present the rich folklife of the United States and in the countries and the world beyond. Since that time with an incredible archive, we have amassed interviews, photographs, movies, memorabilia, manuscripts that now contain and comprise the largest ethnographic archive in the world. There are millions of items in our archive and I welcome you all to come -- come sometime and discover all of the wonderful things that we have. Much of folklife, which sort of expresses our cultural beliefs, attitudes, values through cultural expression, artistic expression is transferred through oral history and oral history is certainly one of the primary mainstays or backbones of the Veterans History Project, as you can imagine. And the Veterans History Project is contained within the American Folklife Center and I think that's extremely appropriate. VHP's mission is to capture, preserve and make accessible for future generations the oral and written accounts of the unique life experiences of our war veterans so we can better understand the realities of war. Since its establishment in 2000, VHP has archived over 90,000 collections of personal remembrances of wartime service from the brave men and women who have served the U.S. Military during any American war beginning from World War I to the more recent conflicts in Afghanistan and Iraq. As our veterans come home and transition back into civilian life, they can be faced with many challenges from physical and emotional health to employment, and those challenges can be amplified if they are experiencing symptoms of PTSD. According to the National Center for PTSD at the Department of Veteran Affairs, PTSD occurs in 11 to 20% of the veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq wars, in 10% of veterans of the Gulf War and 30% of veterans of the Vietnam War. In 2010, Congress designated June 27th National PTSD Awareness Day to aid in educating the public about the disease and alleviating the stigmas and misconceptions commonly associated with it, so we as a nation can support our veterans in transitioning back into civilian life upon returning from war. I want to commend the Veterans History Project staff for recognizing the importance of this day and taking the initiative to involve the Library of Congress in the national campaign to bring about PTSD awareness. And also, I want to especially offer thanks to Lisa Taylor and Kinesha [assumed spelling] Harrison, two VHP staff members, for spearheading this effort. So thank you and thank you to all VHP staff. Today the panelists will define what PTSD is, [inaudible] about the disease and discuss the various treatment options. And we hope and certainly are looking forward to learning more about the benefits of folklore and about the benefits of telling your story during the recovery process. The panel discussion will be moderated by Jason Cain, director of Intergovernmental Affairs in the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. And Mr. Cain is also himself, a U.S. Army veteran of the Afghanistan and Iraq wars. After leaving the military to focus on veteran's advocacy, he worked closely with the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund to build and maintain the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall here in Washington D.C. He holds a bachelor's degree in U.S. Government from Campbell University and is currently pursuing his Master's degree in Legislative Affairs at George Washington University. So without further ado, ladies and gentlemen, please stand with me or sit with me in welcoming Mr. Jason Cain. ^M00:06:01 [ Applause ] ^M00:06:08 >> Jason Cain: Good afternoon. Thank you so much for having us here. Thank you, Betsy, for the warm welcome and the background on the American Folklife Center and the Veterans History Project. Thanks also to the staff, Lisa Taylor, [inaudible] and -- and everyone here for putting this together. This is really important work that -- that we all are involved in and we all know that -- that raising awareness of PTSD is the greatest thing that we can do to help our fellow veterans and -- and the folks that we're all looking to help out. I also thank you for our four panelists that -- that are here to join us to bring their personal experience and their expertise to this conversation. I was honored to be asked to be the moderator today. I've worked with the Veterans History Project for a number of years, both personally and -- and professionally. So it was great to come back and -- and see these folks again. PTSD has really touched so many of -- of my friends, myself, the people that I work with, people that I care about. So this is -- is a very important day and -- and we're glad that you're all here to join us. This is really -- too many veterans have -- have been affected by -- by PTSD and now that we've identified it, we've realized the effect it can have on people. It's time to -- to really hone down and find out how we can do our best to help everyone that's out there that's suffering. It's time for veterans, their loved ones, families, colleagues, even employers to feel comfortable about engaging with veterans about PTSD. It's not -- it's a stigma that we want to get rid of and -- and something that -- that shouldn't be talked about in hush tones and in cubicles and the like. It -- it should be something that we should all be able to talk openly about as we do any other wartime injuries. Just a few housekeeping issues. This will -- is being recorded and is going to be live or going to be webcast at the Veterans History Project webpage, so if you enjoy this discussion, please tell your friends and family and colleagues that they can go check it out at www.loc.gov, it's the Library of Congress website. And go check it out. Secondly, before you leave today, if you haven't already done so, there's a resource table and a Veterans History Project table back in the back. We have a -- if touch do tell petition for one of our panel members here and that's going to be -- if you -- you'll hear about it and -- and hopefully be compelled to join that effort. And as well as Veteran History Project has their materials back and we'll also have -- you can learn about how to conduct interviews and -- and how to be a part of that mission. Third, each of today's panelists are experts in their own fields and they -- they have lots of information to -- to share, so we're going to have questions afterwards, but they've also provided their emails on the brochure, so feel free to ask any of us follow on questions in case we don't get to your question or you think about it later. And then, they'll be brochures afterwards and so, stick around, there's also going to be some light refreshments here, so hope you enjoy the question or enjoy the conversation. Lastly, we're going to give two minutes to each panel member to give a brief overview of themselves and what they do. And -- and then we'll continue on into the discussion. We're going to have enough time for responses -- if we don't have enough time for responses, we want to make sure to get to the Q and A portion at the end, so we'll try to, if you can keep your questions to one question so we can get everyone around and that'll be it. ^M00:10:04 I may give a wrap it up sign. Everyone has their own, this is mine. Could just -- if we have -- if we're going over two minutes or close to two minutes, we want to keep it open, but want everyone to have a chance to talk. Now that we have all that out of the way, I'd like to welcome you and allow me to present the National Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Awareness panelists. First we have -- we'll go in order -- first we have Dr. Jennifer Gala True, next we have Dr. Richard Tedeschi, Staff Sergeant Karen Fears and David Kelly Williams. And we'll go ahead and start with Dr. True. >> Gala True: Yes. >> Jason Cain: Thank you. >> Gala True: My name is Gala True and thank you so much for being here today. I'm really pleased to have been invited to be a part of this panel and with such people up here today. So I am a research assistant professor of medicine at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine and a folklorist and a VA researcher at the Philadelphia VA in the Center for Health Equity Research and Promotion. And I come at my work from very much a folklore perspective, so I'm very interested in how veterans identity, military identity, veteran identity, holding different identities at different times impacts on how veterans think about health, healing, illness, seeking treatment, engaging in care, what kind of care they want, what their treatment preferences are. I'm also really interested in the use of narrative and storytelling to help people make, I guess sort of order out of chaos, so try to help them put into coherent narrative very fragmented events that occurred maybe even during their deployments -- traumatic events, but it can also be the whole story of why they enlist, what they get out of military service, both positive and negative, what their experiences of deployment are, positive and negative and how they see themselves moving forward. And I think that stories are -- telling your story and sharing your story with someone is a really important way for you to be able to create that kind of coherent narrative, but it's also important for our society to hear the stories of veterans, especially those who have served to -- in combat, but also those who have served our country in times of peace as well. They have a lot to teach us about mission and purpose and service, and I think that, especially today where less than 1% of our population has served in the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and very few of us are affected day-to-day by these wars. It's so important for us to welcome these veterans home and listen to their stories and share in both their burdens and their triumphs. They have lots of strengths and resilience and a lot to offer society that we need to learn about from them. So, I don't know how close I am to two minutes, but to that end, I have been working on a project with veterans who served in Iraq and Afghanistan that's called "From War to Home," through the veterans lens and I have information about it on the table out there, but the basic jist is that I gave veterans cameras and asked them to take pictures and tell their stories of military service and deployment and homecoming. And we've created a traveling exhibit of their photo narratives, their stories and pictures that's been traveling around the country. And they continue to give talks with me about their experiences and about the barriers they face to getting the care they need and about where they see themselves fitting into society going forward. So hopefully you can learn a little bit more about that from -- I'll talk about it today and also there's information on the table. >> Jason Cain: Okay, thank you so much. Dr. Tedeschi? >> Richard Tedeschi: Rich Tedeschi, I'm a professor of psychology at University of North Carolina at Charlotte. And I've been involved with working with veterans in various ways. First in my clinical practice, I -- part of that practice I see veterans with PTSD. I've been involved with training at different military installations and the development of the Comprehensive Soldier Fitness Program for the US Army. And then I'm a researcher as well, and been involved in some research projects that include looking at prisoners of war from Vietnam and veterans of more recent conflicts. So, in this research I'm particularly interested in the idea that not only do we see in the aftermath of these traumatic experiences post-traumatic stress disorder, but we also see another kind of outcome, post-traumatic growth. And these things can coexist, but we would do well to recognize that even people who are very traumatized can come out of these experiences having developed a sense of purpose and mission and value, not -- not necessarily to talk about what has happened as a traumatic event is valuable in itself, but as something that has taught them how to live differently or how to live more fully or how to create some sort of mission and purpose for themselves in the aftermath of all this. And I -- and I know that the other panelists that you'll hear from, I think are probably examples of this, and so, that's another outcome that I hope we recognize today as we talk about PTSD. >> Karen Lynn Fears: Okay. Thank you. Good afternoon, my name is Karen Fears and I'm a retired staff sergeant in the Army and I currently serve under the Administration for Children and Families. And I am here as a representation of victims and victors of sexual assault and intimidation and harassment. I am trying to push my initiative if touched, do tell, which incorporates training and training for the leaders -- for our military leaders in the [inaudible] of basic training. So, and I'm very humble to be here. Thank you. >> David Williams: Good morning. Before I introduce myself, I want to read a poem to you. "I am the flag of the United States of America. My name is Old Glory. I fly atop of America's tallest buildings. I stand watch in America's halls of justice. I fly majestically over institutions of learning. I stand guard with power in the world. Look up and see me. I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice. I stand for freedom. I am confident, I am arrogant, I am proud. When I'm flown by other fellow banners, my head is a little higher, my colors a little truer. I bow to no one. I am recognized all over the world. I am worshipped. I am saluted. I am loved. I am revered. I am respected and I am feared. I have fought in every battle of every war for more than 200 years. I was flown at Valley Forge, Gettysburg, Shiloh, Appomattox, I was there at San Juan Hill, the trenches of France, the Argonne Forest, [inaudible], Rome, the beaches of Normandy, Guam, Okinawa, Korea and Khe Sanh, Saigon, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Know me, I was there. I led my troops. I was dirty, worn and tired, but my soldiers cheered me and I was proud. I have been [inaudible], torn and trampled on streets of countries I helped set free. But doesn't hurt because I am invincible. I have ensouled upon, burned, torn and trampled on the streets of my country and when it's done by those I have -- I was in battle with, it hurts. But I shall overcome, for I am strong. I have slipped the bounds of earth to stand watch over the unchartered frontiers of space for my advantage point on the moon. I was silent witness to all America's finest hours, but my finest hours are yet to come. When I am in torn into strips to be used as bandages for my comrades on the battlefield or when I'm flown at half-mast to honor my soldiers or when I lie in the trembling arms of a grieving parent at the grave of the fallen son or daughter, I am proud." My name is Kelly Williams, I'm the Veterans Employment Program Manager at the US Department of Health and Human Services. I come here today on my own to talk to you about something that's very important to me and that is what post-traumatic stress is and what it does to all veterans. And as you hear the panel -- as we go forward, we'll talk more about that. >> Jason Cain: Thank you so much. That was a really [inaudible]. Thank you for doing that [inaudible]. I'd like to thank all of our panel members and look forward to this great discussion. ^M00:20:02 As Kelly noted, veterans get a little crazy or intense maybe about the flag, and that's -- that's exactly why, that's why we fight, that's what we do and that was really cool. Thank you for doing that. This is a great -- you can see that we have a very wide spectrum of -- of inputs and -- and kind of experiences to -- to lead this. So let's go ahead and get started. We'll start with Dr. Tedeschi, could you give a clinical definition of -- of PTSD and how it manifests itself in -- particularly in veterans. >> Richard Tedeschi: Well, I think one of the things to remember about PTSD is that it's a series of emotions and thoughts and behaviors, they're all aimed at trying to reestablish a sense of safety. And in the aftermath of traumatic events, like combat, there is a readjustment that the body and mind goes through in order to try to determine what's dangerous and what's safe in the environment. And all the symptoms of PTSD arise out of that need to reestablish safety and in the disturbance in the ability to figure out what's safe and what's not. So, you get symptoms that include things like avoidance. People avoid things because they mistakenly believe that these circumstances are dangerous when they are in -- in fact safe. They may avoid thinking about things, doing things, avoid things that are triggers to memories of traumatic events. So, avoidance is part of it. They have -- they have to struggle with intrusive thoughts and images about what they went through. So, the things that had disturbed them that were traumatic, come back to them in dreams or what we often call flashbacks of memory from these events during the day. And so, they're struggling with trying to make sure that those things don't happen to them. They try to avoid sleep sometimes, dreaming certain things, the triggers that will initiate the flashbacks. They have negative mood and thoughts about things. Going through trauma effects the way you view the world, what you believe about the kind of place you live in, who's around you, who you can trust. So there's a lot of negativity about life that can happen in the aftermath of traumatic events of this kind. And people's bodies and minds are -- are ready to be reactive, they're easily aroused by anything that may seem to be a threatening event or dangerous in some way. So people are easily startled, they're kind of on a hair trigger ready to defend themselves, seek safety, do something which would allow them to be protective. And so, this is -- this PTSD is a self-protective mechanism that occurs in the aftermath of trauma. So, one of the things that you want to think about here is that in traumatic circumstances, all these kinds of things that we call disorder are actually very adaptive. They're natural responses of the mind and body to protect oneself. But in circumstances where they're no longer needed, they look like disorder. They look -- they look like something that's just inappropriate to the circumstance. And so, it's important to remember that even though as inappropriate of the circumstance, we still have people's minds and bodies doing the things that they're designed to do. To help us survive. So PTSD is like a false alarm. People's alarm system is going off when it doesn't need to. And so, that's -- that's why it's called a disorder, but in a lot of ways, these are people who are just finding their bodies and minds doing what they're built to do, to be self-protective. Jason Cain: Great, thank you so much. Is there -- anyone else have anything to add to that? Or we could leave it with the clinician giving the clinical definition. Mr. Williams, what are some of the myths associated with PTSD? >> David Williams: One of the myths that we talk about all the time is making the assumption. And what I do as a veterans employment program manager at HHS, the thing that I tell people not to do is -- don't assume that because they're a veteran they're dangerous. PTSD -- we're not dangerous, we are -- that's -- that's not us. People with PTSD, they never get better. We get better, so don't put that label on us, you know? When we talk about some of the negative things that disassociated with, having post-traumatic stress and you see what the media has to say on this issue. That's what is -- it's the exposure of that makes it worse, but it's not true because the greater more the veterans that I see that do suffer from this, they are function. So for management to hire veterans, they shouldn't hire a veteran with the stigma behind it that he or she because they went to Iraq, Afghanistan, have post-traumatic stress and they want to hurt somebody [inaudible]. You have isolated cases that -- that has happened and it's not the norm, it's the -- it's the irregular that has occurred. And those individuals seek -- are seeking help and we have to make sure that that's out there. So making those unfair assumptions [inaudible], this is something we have to make sure that we understand in the way that we make sure that we understand [inaudible] that we aren't crazy. That we will get better -- is to educate our individuals who are in positions to hire or in positions to make the -- the unfair accusations about who we are and what we do and what we seen and we going through. >> Jason Cain: All right. Has anyone else seen other myths, you know, he's talking from a -- an employment perspective. >> Gala True: Yeah. >> Jason Cain: And there's lots out there. >> Gala True: I think one thing that has come out of my work with veterans is that often there's so -- there's such an identity with looking pull together and clean and pull, you know, dressing right and having your hair right and good neat appearance. That when they come into the VA, they may look extremely well pulled together and they still may be suffering from post-traumatic stress. And they sometimes find that people make assumptions about them like, "Oh, you can't possibly be really dealing with post-traumatic stress disorder because you look so pulled together today and you've got eye makeup on, whatever, you know? Especially the women get that a lot, I think. You look so pulled together, you couldn't possibly be, you know, having these challenges and issues. So that's one thing I hear, is that they -- they look high and tight, but they're not necessarily feeling it inside. >> That's true. >> Jason Cain: Sometimes they adjust, I'll say from my perspective, when I go to the VA, like if I go at an, you know, afternoon appointment -- >> Gala True: Yeah. >> Jason Cain: I take off my tie, I take off my jacket -- >> Gala True: Yeah. >> Jason Cain: -- just because I don't feel -- feel right walking -- >> Gala True: Yeah. >> Jason Cain: -- in to get help when I'm, you know -- >> Gala True: Right, right. >> Jason Cain: -- look like I have a job and -- and doing well. >> Gala True: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. >> David Williams: And it's interesting that you would say that that's how you dress when you go in and it's, like Dr. Tedeschi said, it's -- it's that [inaudible] fitting in. And one of the things I tell the veterans who I have the opportunity to speak with, "You are who you are." And as you project yourself, be that person. You don't have to take your tie off so that you can fit in with the other vets because I can tell you when I go to my VA appointments and there are other veterans that is in my group that are suffering from the same thing, I have a suit and tie on sometimes or I'll have my tennis shoes and my throwback jersey, and I see a lot of men and women the same way. But we have the same issue going on and we're trying to cope. And as we try to cope, the exterior portions of us is one thing that you see that makes the general population think that, "Hey, you are well put together." Yes, we are, but we'll still dealing with things. And that's the reason why we come here because we want to educate you on what's going on so that we can get better because we don't have the answers. And we reach out to you for this, and looking well put together, I'm falling apart on the inside But that's not my crutch, that's my benefit, that's my strength and when I have this strength that's coming forward to you, you got to see it that way. >> Jason Cain: You're absolutely right. >> Richard Tedeschi: I want to say one other thing about this. I think it's important to recognize that every individual PTD -- PTSD is different from the other individual's with PTSD. It's all -- it's all very individualized. So, we can't make assumptions that because you know one veteran with PTSD that's like this, that you know all of them. So it's a very individualized sort of syndrome and you have to understand why it's developed in a particular individual, what that particular individual goes through, even though I've mentioned some symptoms. They vary from person to person. What triggers things varies a lot from one person to another depending on what they went through. So you really need to know the individual to understand what's going on here and not make assumptions that -- that we can sort of generalize to everybody. ^M00:30:00 >> Jason Cain: All right, thank you very much. And certain fears, first thank you very much. What you do is -- is very brave and is very important because this is a subject that -- that is -- is becoming more and more prevalent and -- and is getting out in the public. It's something that's obviously been around for a long time, so -- so you've been diagnosed with PTSD as a result of -- as a sexual assault. So -- and -- and another side of that is that that was not in combat. So -- so what are the challenges that -- that your situation, that women and men in your situation face that's -- that may be different? >> Karen Lynn Fears: Well, for me it's -- it's trust. I have to be able to trust my leadership in any capacity where I served. The one thing for me is that I had to recognize the fact that I did suffer from PTSD or I do suffer from PTSD, as a result of being raped in basic training and also being sexually assaulted in my first duty station. For the longest, I just dealt with it. I thought that maybe it was just the way the military operated. I had no idea that -- I felt that it was wrong what was -- what happened to me was wrong, but I didn't have the resources in which to get the help that I needed or -- or after realizing that I needed to -- to seek help. These incidents happened to me when I was -- it was back in the 80s -- yeah, back in the 80s and so, I did not seek treatment until 2005. And the reason why I decided to seek treatment in 2005 was because I realized that it was affecting my relationships. It was affecting my professional relationships, it was -- it was affecting my personal relationships and I just had to come to terms that, "Okay, Karen, you have a problem. You have a situation that you really need to face head on and it's not going to get any better until you do that." And so, I enrolled in this program at the Seattle Veterans Administration called Taking Charge. And that was a very difficult program to go through because I had to relive everything. And we had scenarios where my NCO at my first duty station would call me in on the weekends and he would have his way with me. And we set up this scenario to where we did have this gentlemen come in that was masked and they did have me to put on my uniform and come in and relive this scenario. So, in situations like this, you know, it's very helpful to me because the more I talk about it, the more I put it out there, is the more it's in people's faces. It's a real -- it's a realization of what new recruits, especially in particularly females, go through when they join the military. I'm from Mississippi; that was the first time I've ever traveled outside of Mississippi and I was very green to how the military worked. And I just knew in my heart and in my spirit that I was violated, but I just didn't know how to go about handling it, so that's my experience. >> Jason Cain: Thank you so much, again. And -- and Dr. True, you really kind of bring this all together in -- VA employee working with veterans, but also a folklorist and working on personal narratives. So -- so how -- how are personal narratives used to help PTSD? >> Gala True: Well, the -- the VA -- one of the evidence-based treatments that the VA uses to treat Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder is narrative exposure therapy, which I won't talk about a lot. But basically narrative exposure therapy is based partly on something earlier called testimony therapy, where -- which was used with people who had -- civilians who had experienced war related traumas due to Civil Wars in Chile and Uganda and different countries. It's also been used with child soldiers in countries in Africa. And narrative testimony therapy is basically what it sounds like. It's that you've experienced trauma or complex traumas and you need to be able to put your story together for a number of reasons. You need to be able to put together, I think very traumatic memories or very surreal -- people feel very disconnected from a memory that's traumatic. There are reasons for that, but being able to recall the memories and try to put them into order and put some detail into them, I think helps people ground themselves physically in their own memories and be able to own their memories and put them in -- in order in a coherent narrative, kind of imposed order onto chaos. But also testimony therapy is what it sounds like, is that there is an audience for these testimonies, which is that they're used to help prosecute war criminals. They're used to help document war crimes and so, there's a real kind of -- there's an audience in testimony therapy as well. So, narrative exposure therapy is in part, based on testimony therapy, but it's also based in part on cognitive behavioral approaches to processing traumas. So, that's a major treatment for post-traumatic stress [inaudible]. But I want to talk a little bit more about some of the other narrative based therapies that are out there because veterans don't always participate in narrative exposure therapy. There is a lot of evidence showing that -- especially with this recent cohortive OEF/OIF veterans that about 24% of them dropout of treatment altogether and a very small percentage, I think it's -- it could be less than 10% according to some studies, get what's considered a minimally adequate course of treatment through the VA, through things like narrative exposure therapy. So what are the reasons for that? And some of us are trying to look at that. And I think some of the reasons are that the VA is trying to be more patient centered, but if you think about what it's like for a veteran to get to an appointment, to get up in the morning and decide, "I'm going to drive into an urban VA, try to struggle to find parking, get to my appointment, have people along the way possibly be rude and disrespectful to me. I'm 10 minutes late and they tell me, now you can't have your appointment. And then I'm supposed to go into my therapist and talk about, you know, the most traumatic thing that happened during my deployment and relive it." That's -- that's a really hard gauntlet to run through to then get to that point where you're supposed to have trust a rapport with your therapist. I think also some veterans just aren't ready to recount those traumatic -- and I -- I really think it's incredibly brave what you did, Karen. I mean, that's -- I just can't even imagine. So many veterans find that very difficult. Lots of veterans really say that they -- that they benefit a lot from narrative exposure therapy, but there are just a lot of barriers to them getting through it. So there are a lot of other initiatives using narrative and obviously, the Veterans History Project is one of them. There also are efforts within the VA to try to use things like therapeutic writing, so that the veteran can -- can write maybe from home in the quiet and comfort of their own home. They can write about their experiences. And so that's being looked at, being pilot tested in the VA now. DARPA has a really interesting project that they're piloting looking at helping veterans make graphic novels of their experiences -- their deployment experiences as a therapeutic tool. And still, those are incredible programs, but there's still not that audience there. So then you kind of get to some of the initiatives that are out there that are about having an audience for these narratives and veterans being able to advocate for themselves and teach others, and really have that testimony aspect to using narrative So the Veterans History Project is obviously one of those. And there's also -- there are just a lot of really incredible kind of grassroots organizations out there that you can look up if you're interested. There's Warrior Writers, there's the Veterans Writing Project. At Walter Reed, they now have classes for veterans on writing through the Veterans Writing Project. There's the work that I do with veterans where they share their stories and then go out and give talks to healthcare providers and others about their healthcare needs using their stories as a way to connect with different audiences. So, those are just some of the efforts that are out there and I think if you're interested in things like that just, you know, go on the computer and look at Warrior Writers, look at Veterans Writing Project, look for different projects like that because they are really very grassroots oriented. Veterans are starting these groups on their own in different cities and -- and working together to help create poetry, books of poetry, anthologies of their poetry, there are journals now coming out of some of these projects. So, I think it's -- it's a really exciting time right now to be using narrative for healing and for connecting veterans and civilians. >> Jason Cain: I have to admit that I -- I have a connection to that as well. ^M00:39:57 My dad has gotten really into helping soldiers down in Fort Bragg -- >> Gala True: Oh, great. >> Jason Cain: -- do journaling. >> Gala True: Oh, great. >> Jason Cain: So he's kind of written a book there -- >> Gala True: That's neat. >> Jason Cain: -- there's a handful of them back there. >> Gala True: Oh, cool. >> Jason Cain: But he's very passionate about the importance of putting your story down, you don't have to show it to anybody. >> Gala True: Right. >> Jason Cain: But just putting it down on paper can -- can make a world of difference. >> Gala True: Yeah, great. >> Jason Cain: And we've seen that, so -- and then anyone else, I mean, Karen obviously her experience, you know, you talking about it, you said that that has helped you immensely. It's -- it's -- what -- how do you think that that -- that has helped you? What -- what has made it easier by talking? >> Karen Fears: I think in my mind, it's just accepting the fact that it did happen and having the ability to overcome it and not allow it to rule my life. And so the more I talk about it, the more I'm conquering it within myself and in hopes that it would help others. >> Jason Cain: That's great. Who else? Well, go -- we'll hit everyone and then we'll go for another round. Mr. Williams, interesting topic -- are there racial disparities in [inaudible] diagnosis that -- that you've seen or? >> David Williams: One of the things I -- did some research for or tried to do some research on -- were there any racial disparities? As far as I can see, PTSD has no color, really has no gender. But inside of that, the -- the biggest thing that I've seen in what we have inside of us -- what we call [inaudible] inside of HHS, there's this Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration and they're called HRSA -- Human Resources and Service Administration -- some of the data that -- that's presented there and it's -- it can be anyone. I mean, it doesn't have a real racial bias behind us. I mean, it just depends on the individual and Dr. Tedeschi is -- is -- can speak more to that because he'll -- it might be women, it might be men. I can tell you from personal experience when I was [inaudible] in Afghanistan for a year, the biggest thing that we were concerned about was what they call "Man Love Thursdays." And that to us was like really, really, really interesting and on that day, we saw assaults on our male soldiers and sailors and marines on that day. We had no clue, it's not our culture. But on that day we saw a spike [inaudible] on that day, but coming back home, [inaudible]. But that's on -- that's in the military environment. So, here again, I haven't really seen anything that suggests that it's one or the other. Dr. Tedeschi and Dr. True may be able to speak more to that. >> Jason Cain: You said maybe even wider in male, female, demographics -- >> Gala True: Yeah. >> Jason Cain: -- is there anything that -- >> Gala True: You know, so I have -- I've been involved in a study at the VA over the past few years on military sexual trauma, which are assault -- is assault or harassment in military. And one of the things that's really interesting is how many males do report having been assaulted, as well as females. And I think one of the things that comes out of the stories that they tell about those assaults and looking at the impact on -- on them. One of those most interesting things is just and this seems like it's so commonsense, but you have to really think about it and remember it -- is that it's -- it's not -- it's not -- it's a power dynamic. It's a -- there is -- there can be a culture within a certain unit or under a certain command where all kinds of harassment are tolerated -- racial harassment, religious harassment, bullying and sexual assault and harassment at the very far end of that kind of environment. But that -- I think that many people look at -- think, well, a man couldn't be assaulted in the military if there wasn't, you know -- they'll stereotype why he would've been assaulted. And it's just so clear when you look at these narratives and you look at the circumstances of what happened that it's really a power dynamic and it's really abuse of power and corruption basically of the camaraderie that is -- that really exists for most people within the military. I mean, most of what I hear about is that sense of camaraderie in watching each other's backs and looking out for each other. It's a real corruption of that and so, the aftereffects, the post-traumatic stress that comes from that is really compounded by that corruption, by that betrayal. So I think that's one of the stereotypes that you kind of have to blow away when you think about post-traumatic stress that results from military sexual trauma. >> David Williams: And this just came to me as -- when I was on active duty, we called it the initiation. And it's not -- it's one of those weird things that we have all types of initiation, but we don't see it as something that's going to traumatize an individual. This is your right of passage and it's not -- it's -- it appears and it's the [inaudible] of a division to assault another person and you be okay with it. And it's not. >> Jason Cain: Right. Sergeant Fears, again through your experience, you know, what -- what do you think that the military can be do -- doing better? How can we kind of reform to -- to adjust to the, you know, what we now know as a serious issue and -- and military sexual assault? >> Karen Fears: I would say prevention in sexual assault or trauma in basic training. You know, as -- as I've shared before, you know, I've endured criminal assaults and violations on my civil rights and -- but my experience, it's not unique. Many of my sisters and brothers have suffered in this regard. The thing is is I have the courage to help others speak up and take back their right to be free from sexual assault in the US Military. I'm developing this program called "If Touch Do Tell," in which it helps service women and men reclaim their dignity and bring their attackers to justice. I understand the fact that there are inherent risk and dangers in serving in the military, and rapes and assaults and the culture of official indifferent shouldn't be among those inherent risks. "If Touch Do Tell" seeks to provide insight for new recruits in the red phase of basic training, to be equipped with an avenue in which to seek assistance in the event their civil rights have been violated. This is a form that I am pursuing to present to Congress. My hope is to change the culture of rape tolerance in the military by empowering women recruits with this knowledge. On May 24, 2013, the Secretary of the Army, John McHue, issued a memorandum detailing the Army's plan to implement our department wide SHARP, which is Sexual Harassment/Assault Response Prevention Stand Down. This is a great start and there are other efforts that's underway to change the military's response to sexual violence, however, we need to incorporate training for our future leaders, i.e., our [inaudible] officers, drill sergeants, et cetera. In addition, it is so important to have a resource for recruits in the beginning of their military career in which to refer to prevent being assaulted. Moreover, "If Touch Do Tell seeks to empower service members throughout their careers with the tools necessary to prevent, prosecute and recover from sexual violence. My vision for "If Touch Do Tell" is to include an international hotline that will take calls 24/7 from any member of the Armed Services who are to provide on the spot mental health counseling if needed or link the service member with full case management services, including legal aid, mental and behavioral health counseling, relocation services and other services that's needed. Empowering service members to know they -- know their rights and giving them the tools to protect those rights is the only way to once and for all end the culture of rape and sexual violence tolerance in our Armed Forces. If the Armed Forces had the courage to integrate the races, accept woman in the military and accept our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters in full open service in the military, then certainly the courage exists among our military leaders to end the tolerance of sexual violence. I believe the military should be a safe place for anyone to serve their country. I believe in the United States of America and our Armed Forces. No person, in particularly women, should have to fear that their civil rights will be violated in such a criminal, unethical [inaudible] or disrespectful way, which is why I need your help. Thank you. >> Jason Cain: Thanks so much. And Dr. Tedeschi, if you can just talk about some -- some of your -- what are -- what you've learned about PTSD. And I'm particularly interested in what you mentioned, the post-traumatic growth. I mean, that's -- that's really great how the -- the experience I think some of us have, have seen that ourselves, you know, the experience of dealing with -- with stress, you know, makes us better people. ^M00:50:00 >> Richard Tedeschi: Well, we're focusing here on stories, narrative and it is the case that most of the time when you're treating PTSD, you are involved in getting people to tell their stories, disclosing about themselves. And very often that involves talking about the trauma itself. But another part of it that's so important is talking about the aftermath, what's happened since this, where the person goes from here and integrating the story of the traumatic event into the rest of the person's live. And I think that's part of what you're doing with your work, trying to help people figure out where that traumatic event or those events fit into the -- the broader narrative. One of the things that traumas seem to do to people, is they -- they divide their lives into a before and after. If you -- if you listen to people talk about their lives and they mention something like, "Oh, before this happened, it was like this and since this has happened, it's been like that. You're -- you're talking about something significant, often a very traumatic event. So, traumas divide life into the before and after that way. And you have to help people figure out how those pieces fit back together again so they can figure out who they are, how now that they're this way, that still means a connection with the way they grew up or the way they were before and who they can become from here. Trying to achieve this integration of all these pieces that they feel like they're left -- so one of the things I've certainly learned about from people who are traumatized is fitting together all these pieces of themselves again and helping them tell the story of what's happened. And then starting to look forward to what stories can be from here. What's still possible? What possible self exists now? And -- and I have to say that in my work, all I've tried to do with some success I think, is reflect what people have told me. I'm just sort of a conduit for what other people have taught me about going through trauma and I think that by listening to people's stories this way, we can help them move onto the next phase of their lives. So, if you know of people who are traumatized, who had PTSD or combat veterans, listening is really the important thing that you can do, listen as they tell their stories. Listen with patience, with a willingness to learn, a willingness to be changed by the story that they tell about themselves. Let that effect you so they can start to see how important is that they've gone through what they've gone through, that they're willing to disclose about it and that you conceive of a future. So, that's -- that's what I have learned from working with people who are trauma survivors, is that as the listeners were -- were deeply effect and we learn a lot. And that in itself is very helpful because then this trauma and the aftermath have some kind of meaning and purpose for people. >> Jason Cain: That's great. Yeah. And [inaudible] that's also part of the, kind of the growth that you -- you're teaching other people by -- by telling your story, they can learn from you as well. That's really great. Well, I'd like to -- to thank our -- our panelists one last time [applause]. That's a very nice applause, but I got one more question for Dr. True, I'm sorry. >> Gala True: Thought you were going to let me off the hook. >> Jason Cain: I know -- no. No, this is -- again, your -- your -- you bring it all together, why we're here at the Library of Congress and the Folklife Center and the Veterans History Project. So -- so in your work, can you -- can you give some personal anecdotes of -- of veterans that -- that benefitted from participating in the Veteran History Project interviews? >> Gala True. Sure. Or -- well, first I just would like to comment on what Dr. Tedeschi said because I think it's so important and he used the word conduit and I can really identify with that. I also think of the word witness. That we're -- we can be there to witness people's stories and in a way that's accepting and nonjudgmental. One of the things that often I find at the VA is I'll be sharing someone's story from one of my projects in a -- in a clinical setting and one of -- not you -- but someone might -- a therapist might say to me, "Well, you really sure that story's true?" And I just say, "I have no idea, sounded true to me, meant something to him or her." It -- it's not -- it's not our job to sit there and listen to someone's story and be in our mind, judging them as their talking and trying to think, "Well, could this person really been in special ops or could this really have happened to this person three times or, you know, is this -- did this person really save somebody's life?" That's not what you're doing when you're listening, that's judging. You're already judging and -- and putting your own spin on the story. I think we're there to be witnesses [inaudible] conduit. So I really like that you said that. I -- I'll just share maybe one or two stories from the work that -- that I've done because I can't speak as well to the Veteran's History Project, but Dr. Tedeschi was telling me earlier that he's starting to look with them at evaluating the impact of people sharing their stories to the project. But we -- we work with veterans very much in the same way. I work with them to help them tell their stories and then share them with a wider audience. So, one story that has really stuck with me was -- is a young man who was in the Army, he was in the infantry. He went in very young, at 17 or 18, and he served two tours in Iraq and he was given a lot of medications by the -- the company medic to kind of help him keep going out on missions. So he was given -- he was prescribed some opioids for pain. He was prescribed Ambien to help him sleep. He was prescribed Xanax for his anxiety. I think he was also -- got a hold of some Ritalin from another person in the unit, to get him up when he needed to go outside the wire. And he became addicted and dependent on many of these medications. He also had a traumatic brain injury and he had pretty severe -- he has pretty severe PTSD. He came back -- he also is highly, highly decorated. I mean, highly, highly decorated combat veteran. So he came back and he was in Hawaii and as he transitioned out of being deployed overseas, he's still active duty, but the doctors that he was seeing as an active duty, you know, back in Hawaii were like, "I'm not giving you these meds. This is -- we got to -- we're going to take you off a bunch of these meds. You're not -- I'm not prescribing these things." And he really was craving these medications, he'd become very dependent on them. He really wanted them and so, some friends said, "Well, if you go to this other side of the island, there's a place where you can buy these pills, you know, and they're widely available on the street." So he went with his friends and he started buying what he needed to buy and then it got kind of expensive and he figured out that heroin was actually cheaper than OxyContin or Oxycodone and so he became addicted to heroin. He ended up getting medically retired from the military because of his traumatic brain injury and his post-traumatic stress disorder. He came to the VA, he was addicted to heroin, he got into trouble with the law. He ended up through court ordered treatment coming to the VA to -- for methadone maintenance. So here he is, he's walking through the halls every day to go where everybody knows, there's this specific building where you go get your methadone every morning and it's clear that he's there to get his methadone and he's in the methadone maintenance clinic with all the other guys and, you know, most of the guys anyway. And he just has this terrible feeling of like, nobody knows who I really am. Everyone sees me as an addict. Everyone sees me as broken. Everyone sees me as damaged. And meanwhile, I served my country, I have all these commendations, you know, I saved lives. I did what I was asked to do and I did it -- I think he went on -- on over 300 combat missions, so I did it 300 times, you know? But he just didn't feel like he was being seen for who he was. He felt like he was being seen at a certain very low point in his life, what people saw him stuck -- I don't know if that's me. But he through participating in this project, he contributed his photos, he contributed his stories and they were up on the walls of the VA for three months. And people would come in and go through and they would recognize him and they would say, you know, "Oh, my gosh, I never knew he did all that or I never knew he went through all that or I never knew that he first got, you know, exposed to" -- I don't -- I'm going to try to just talk loudly. ^M00:59:58 And he first got exposed to, you know, these drugs through his military service and it really opened up a lot of doors for him in terms of being able to communicate with people, being seen for -- for who he is, for the fullness of his story, for the fullness of his experience. But I remember when he finished telling me all these different stories and going through all his different photos of me and he looked at me and he said, "Wow, that was really cathartic. I never told anybody all this stuff before." And he had been in therapy and he had been in methadone maintenance and so I was kind of surprised that he hadn't told anyone all these stories. And I looked at him and I said, "Well, why did you tell me now?" And he said, "Well, to be honest with you, I kind of forgot you were there. I just got caught up in telling the story." And that to me really captures how important it is to listen to these stories and to help veterans share their stories. I could tell other stories like that, but I think I'll just kind of end with Jamie, because he, you know, is the reason I -- people like Jamie are the reason that we're all here and that we all do this work. >> David Williams: And if I could say one thing -- >> Gala True: Yeah. >> David Williams: -- inside of these stories. Miss Taylor, whether you know it or not, you saved a lot of lives over HHS. There was a lot of our veterans who came through the Veterans History Project to tell their stories. And if it wasn't for Miss Taylor coming over and giving a presentation to us veterans on our Veterans Day a couple years back, a lot of our veterans would not have gotten the treatment that they deserved to have. And I want to applaud Miss Taylor for that. Thank you [applause]. >> Jason Cain: Thank you very much. Well -- well, with that, we'd like to open it up for questions from the audience. And did we -- see if we can -- >> Testing, can you hear that? >> Jason Cain: I don't -- >> Richard Tedeschi: Right there. >> Jason Cain: I can't tell. If not, I can just repeat the question. >> Okay. >> Jason Cain: Ma'am, go ahead. In the corner. [ Inaudible Speaker ] Just go ahead, I'll repeat it. >> I have two questions. [Inaudible] how frequent would you say [inaudible] percentages of veterans do end up with a severe enough case of PTSD that they feel like they'd like to get treatment [inaudible]? And then also my second question would be that I have to believe there's a lot of people who perhaps need treatment [inaudible] and for whatever reason just simply never do. And in my experience [inaudible] coming to libraries, whatever kind of libraries [inaudible] into. Is there some kind of centralized resource that [inaudible] can look at and say, "Okay, according to this book, [inaudible] military and PTSD experience, so how can [inaudible]? Is there a main resource that could [inaudible] the very best resources for those people who are never going to go and get [inaudible]. They can at least [inaudible]. >> Jason Cain: All right, let me just repeat the questions real quick. One -- first question was, what the -- what is the frequency of occurrence of PTSD among veterans and secondly, are there any resources for librarians, the library being a central location where many people congregate? Is there anything that they can be doing? Does anyone have -- [inaudible] want to take? >> Richard Tedeschi: Well, one resource that would really be good, you just get on the web to the National Center for PTSD and that would be a good resource. They provide a whole lot of information about treatment options and -- and how to recognize PTSD. So, that would be a good starting place, I would think. And then -- then this question about, you know, how many veterans have PTSD? Well, you're right, that many people don't come for treatment, many people do not talk about it. Sometimes -- sometimes it's hard to get good data on what those percentages really are. And of course, it varies by combat exposure and trauma exposure and that sort of things as well. So the -- the -- the kind of figures that Betsy was talking about at the very beginning, you know, maybe about 10 to 20% that's generally accepted. But again, we're talking about individual people, those things don't really mean that much. When you have an individual coming to you in the library and they're asking for material about PTSD or war trauma or something of that sort, you know, then you're dealing with one person. And I think if you want to engage them in a sort of discussion of their interest in this and see if they're -- they're wanting to say something about it. And if so, then you have an opportunity to direct them to Veterans History Project, other kinds of resources and -- and you can serve a very good function that way in getting them to the next step in discussing their experience. >> Gala True: I just wanted to add that we have -- I have a resource list out on the table out there that was actually developed for clinicians, for healthcare providers, but it has a number of online resources for everything from military sexual trauma to post-traumatic stress disorder and you could bookmark maybe some of those or maybe take that resource list and be able to refer people to websites if they're looking for something. There are so many different great resources out there online and I think that the important thing is -- is maybe, as Dr. Tedeschi was saying, is try to figure out exactly what the person's looking for and help tailor it to them because one of the things that -- that I hear a lot from veterans is the difficulty of maybe reaching out and kind of looking for help and finding something very cold and unnavigable, you know, getting to a website and just finding that there's too much information there and they can't absorb it all. So what I do often is sit down with a veteran, try to help them just for 10 minutes go online -- if they want to connect with wounded warrior project, I'll actually sit with them while they make the first call, make sure they get connected to a person. It's a much more warm way to help someone, if they're willing to have you sit with them to help them get access to resources because so many times people try to reach out and it -- it's just very overwhelming. So having a person there with them just to say, "Well, why don't you try clicking on this or why don't we try these Boolean search terms so that you don't get overwhelmed by the results," is a great thing that you could do. >> David Williams: One of the things that we see inside of my department and other agencies is we got -- we have veteran groups and when we have the veteran groups that are there together, you start to hear different stories. And after the stories come out, after the -- we take the opportunity to say, "Hey, have you thought about this [inaudible]?" And a lot of times the education is something that's -- you'll always hear me harp on, is the education for the individual to know what those resources are. Yeah, you can Google everything and yes, it is overwhelming, but when you're sitting there with a man or woman who's gone through this type of trauma, the best thing is like Dr. Tedeschi said, is you got to be able to listen and not be able to judge. And when you don't -- when you do listen and you don't judge, now you can start to [inaudible] this person to a resource that is advantageous to them and getting the help that they need. And that's what I see where I am and that's what I would suggest to anyone else who sees a vet that's trying to find a resource, is to listen first, not to judge and offer these [inaudible] to them. Because for myself, one of the places I went to to [inaudible] good council was my church. And I -- it was hard for me to believe that I'm getting this in my church when I had the VA as a real mechanism that had your trained individuals [inaudible] for those individual [inaudible]. So that [inaudible] for me, it might be a different mechanism for someone else, but that was a resource and having those resources is the education that we have to have, personnel tools [inaudible]. >> Jason Cain: And of course, I'd be remiss if I didn't say, [inaudible] -- suggest going to the VA, we know that -- that veterans are -- are going to be much better off if they get a chance to see that counselor at the VA. Absolutely. >> Richard Tedeschi: And of course, some of that could be -- >> Jason Cain: Absolutely, yeah [inaudible] program there's much information so that you can take with you. And of course, I always have the veterans crisis line, you know, there is slight connection or -- I don't know about slight, I shouldn't say that, but there's some connection between PTSD and suicide rates. The veteran's crisis line is a great place to direct people. We'll go right here. >> There's been a lot of talk about military civilian [inaudible] and I'm curious about [inaudible] where in the [inaudible] culture, two things are of a -- of a civilian community, as well as a military community. I know there's overlap, but [inaudible] in terms of sexual assault [inaudible]. ^M01:09:59 And also, [inaudible]. And I wonder if there are lessons that can be shared [inaudible] those communities [inaudible] people affected and in maybe similar or maybe different ways. >> David Williams: I didn't hear some things -- >> Jason Cain: [Inaudible] let me repeat the question [inaudible]. >> David Williams: Okay. >> Jason Cain: The question is about the -- there is a connection between the military and things happening in the military and things happening in the civilian world -- we call this the military/civilian divide. And examples being sexual assault taking place both in the military and on college campuses [inaudible] TBI becoming a major issue in sports, as well as in the military. >> David Williams: What I was going to say is there was research that's [inaudible] all places [inaudible] and individual veterans that were in Humvee explosions, how similar those injuries were. And they were looking after the correlations for those individuals that who were in these type of impacts and how they chronicled with those NFL players that are doing the same type of thing. And one of the things that we're looking at is something that's always been around, is improving the helmets. So if they improve the helmets, that could minimize some of the other impact that's obtained when they actually have these [inaudible] brain injuries from either the explosion or from helmet to [inaudible] contact. >> Richard Tedeschi: I just want to -- I want to say that, of course, virtually every veteran who survives their military experience becomes a civilian again. And so they're -- we have to recognize, you know, that there's really not such a divide and that the veterans have so much to offer us as they come back from their military service. And so many veterans are looking forward to continuing to be of service to their country and to their fellow citizens. So they do have a lot to tell us about these kinds of situations that you're describing and a lot of different things that civilians experience that are -- are not dissimilar from what veterans go through -- have gone through. There's trauma all over the place in civilian life as well. So there's a lot that we can learn from our veterans about these things. [ Inaudible Speaker ] >> Jason Cain: Okay. ^M01:12:30 [ Inaudible Speaker ] ^M01:13:29 To repeat that, she's asking about the -- if there is a divide between the Vietnam generation and the Gulf War OIF/OEF generation when it comes to the -- the -- kind of the manifestation of their PTSD symptoms. >> Gala True: I mean, I think it's an -- I think it's almost an and, you know, there are differences and similarities. So, for example, when we have this -- this photo exhibit up at the VA for three months and its traveled around, we had lots of veterans from different service areas and especially Vietnam area veterans come through. And I would stand there and talk with them and listen to them and -- and was struck by how much they found commonality in what was -- in the stories that were being told in these pictures and words. They could really identify and they would say things like, "I'm so sorry that these guys are coming back and still having these problems." So there was lots of commonality and then at the same time, whenever you -- I think people tend to differentiate themselves and look at the differences even when there are those commonalities. I've heard many, many veterans who served in OEF/OIF, say that they don't want to be in group therapy with veterans of other service eras because they just can't identify with their stories. Sometimes OEF/OIF veterans get a little freaked out at the VA when they see older veterans there because they think, "Oh, my," you know, they're dealing with something that happened 40 years ago, whatever and how -- "What does this mean for me?" So there can be some distancing that goes on between people of different service eras. So I think it's kind of both, you know, I think it's -- there's tons of commonality and when you -- you get around, you know, people who have served in the military, they know they have so much in common. They have so much common ground, common language and common culture in a lot ways, but then obviously everyone's experiences are so different. I mean, even within veterans who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, they'll do the same thing. They'll say, "Well, when were you in Iraq?" And if it was 2004 to 2005 and I was there 2008 and 2009, I know you had a different deployment than I did, you know, so they'll kind of test each other out like that to see, "Did we have the same kind of experience or did we have a different experience?" >> David Williams: And with that, you know, and it's kind of interesting because two -- two groups of people exist in both places. In Vietnam, you have those individuals that were not [inaudible] Vietnam and then Iraq and Afghanistan, you got those individuals that [inaudible] and never went outside the wires, so they saw things that was in support for those individuals who actually went outside the wire, they took the fire, they came back a little bit different. So when you listen to the stories, those individuals who stayed in the wire has similar stories and those individuals that went outside the wire, has similar stories. And my dad is a Vietnam vet and we talk about different things that -- that happened to him that was really similar, however, when they were in the bush shooting at the Vietnamese, I was in a Humvee. It was 103rd degrees in a Humvee and I'm trying to stay cool when the -- when they were firing at us. We had -- we had some different situations there. All guns were [inaudible], I mean, there was different things that was going on in this -- yeah, the similarities are there, however, we had to look at, you know, what's made the stories important for us [inaudible] fight some of the traumas that we had. Because as I grew up, I saw my dad go through every gamut of what's happened to him in Vietnam. And when I came -- when I came back from Afghanistan from my whole year there as a medic, as a [inaudible], it was different for me because I saw those individuals that my dad just -- when he saw them, they bagged them up and took them to Walter Reed and he was patched up and came back on, but for me it wasn't like that. When I had patched everybody up and sent them to what they had to go through, I had to stay back there. I had to continue to go through this day after day after day, but it didn't affect me until I came home. And I start smelling things that reminded me of these traumas that I had when I was there or the things that if I had of had the equipment that I needed to make sure that a little Afghani girl would most likely be saved had she been here in America [inaudible], but over there we had to watch this. And that was more traumatic because coming home we had to do that. And those stories that we told between the two of us, I went, "Daddy, ya'll did some stuff, but we did more stuff in my opinion." We bantered back and forth between, which was more or less, but then when I talk to other veterans that were in Iraq and like Dr. True was saying, those stories were different, but they were also similar. I talked to a fellow Corp man who witnessed one of his marines getting -- getting shot and he was like, "You know, my primary job was, of course, to help my marine, but we were what we call dental technicians, and when we merge with the Corp men as a whole, our roles change, so we wasn't doing teeth anymore, we were doing the entire body." And when you go from just doing teeth to an entire body, that's a whole different dynamic going on and we had -- when he was there and he was a doc on the footsteps for the soldiers, it's like, that's more blood than I've ever seen in my life. And I'm like, "Yeah, man, it was the same thing for me," because my very first time out, yes I had the training, went through all the things that training provide. The first thing I did was I asked my Lieutenant, "What was I supposed to do?" He said, "Well, you were the doc. You supposed to know this," and it kicked in. But then inside of that, I couldn't think anymore. I mean, it just went away. But for that story to hear different other Corp men, different medics that had the same experience and they listened to the medics in one of Veterans History Project, have the same issue. I was like, "Wow!" But we've learned a lot from each other and it did help, but it was more beneficial for me to stay with my group because we could -- [ Inaudible Speaker ] >> David Williams: I'm sorry. >> Jason Cain: One more -- one more question in [inaudible]. ^M01:19:59 >> Thank you. I -- actually I have two questions [inaudible]. >> Jason Cain: Okay, quickly. >> [Inaudible] this is our second year doing the Veterans History Project and this year we're focusing on women that are [inaudible] difficult for us to gather up enough women. [Inaudible] Sergeant Fear, if she has any recommendations or [inaudible] may or may not have post-traumatic stress disorders to just -- to get them to share their experiences [inaudible]. I know it took you a long time to come forward [inaudible] didn't come forward until 2005. And also, I wanted to know if they if there were any challenges that you all hear about as far as being diagnosed with PTSD because [inaudible] come to our office has to prove that they have PTSD [inaudible], it's very difficult getting the VA doctors to agree this is what they have and I wanted to know what your response to that was. >> Jason Cain: And just to repeat the question again. Just asking, how to -- how to reach women veterans, how to get them -- how to find them to get them to come out and seek treatment and also what are some of the challenges with being diagnosed with PTSD? >> Karen Fears: Okay. In the program that I was -- that I was in in Seattle, Washington [inaudible]. I was truly, truly amazed at how many women -- I'm going to say come to -- came to terms that they were sexually assaulted. For me, like I said, it took me years to -- to come to that point, to come to that realization that I needed help in that regard. And what I've also found in that -- participated in that program is just actually listening to other women. Because -- I mean, that's -- on one side it's like, it's just dirty, don't nobody want to talk about it and things. And it's like, on the other hand, it's like but, we need to talk about it because we need to heal from it. And so, I would say that the biggest thing is just, you know, don't judge us, you know, don't judge us, just listen to us and you'll just be amazed at how similar, you know, how similar stories that they may have, so. >> Gala True: So are you trying to reach women to participate in VHP type interviews through -- >> Yeah. >> Gala True: -- okay. I would think -- I mean, I would -- have you already tried places like SWAN, the Service Women's Action Network? I mean, I think getting -- so SWAN, the Service Women's Action Network is on the -- they're a great organization. You know, I would reach out to organizations like SWAN and explain what you're doing. I think actually Facebook, I mean, when people who served in the current wars are really into social media and every -- every veteran I know tries to friend me on Facebook and I go to my boss and say, "I need a Facebook page for my project," because everybody's on Facebook. I need a Twitter handle. And then they say, "Oh, no, no we don't do that at the VA for individual projects, but I mean, anything through social media, through SWAN, through other organizations like that, you could try Warrior Writers. I can -- I'll give you my card after this and see if I can connect you with some organizations, but I think, you know, just getting -- getting in contact, basically, we were sort of talking about how word of mouth is such an important -- if one woman has a good experience with you, she'll tell other women. You got to go -- you got to go do this because they're try -- you know, whatever you're trying to do, they'll try to help you. >> What about [inaudible] having someone diagnosed with PTSD, but sometimes [inaudible] -- >> Gala True: Yeah. >> -- they're frustrated about that. >> Gala True: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think one of the problems is about documentation in their -- in their military record of incidences that happen and that's the worst for military sexual trauma because that gets swept under the rug. And even if you go report it, it doesn't get into your record, right. So then you have to go and try to get service connected for it and you don't have any backup. And that happens with -- I mean, I've had many veterans tell me that they experienced certain traumas that then weren't in the official report. And so, that they're -- you know, they said to them, "Well, we can't -- we can't document this." I don't know what to say except to just keep trying and to use advocates. I mean, Wounded Warrior Project is a great organization and if they reach out to Wounded Warrior Project and ask to have -- I think Wounded Warrior Project -- I can't remember the name, but there's a program where they're basically peer advocates who will help veterans navigate the process at the VA. I think that's a very important resource. I'm sure there are others besides Wounded Warrior Project, that's just the one that comes to mind right now. But -- >> David Williams: There's also a [inaudible] report that's always generated when there's assaults that occurs. So that -- but that would be big DOD that would have that report and have that information. Yes it -- you could possibly get it, but that would be something to have the [inaudible] the office or the secretary [inaudible] information [inaudible]. >> Karen Fears: And what I personally did, because it was not documented in my medical records, I have one of those mothers who keep everything. And so, my violator in -- at my first duty station -- we were at this Christmas party together and they took a picture of me and he was in the background. And what I had to do after I filed my [inaudible] complaint and went through all of that, they shipped him out and they -- they tried to prosecute me. So to make a long story short, I hunted my company commander down, I located him on -- what is it, what is that website? [ Inaudible Speaker ] AKL -- AKL -- I hunted him down on AKL and he had a somewhat recollection of what happened and he had written it in a statement saying, "Well, this is what I recall. I'm not absolutely positive that this is what happened." And so what I did is I took a picture of myself in my military uniform, I took the picture of my company -- of the gentlemen who assaulted me and myself and I wrote this long statement to him and I asked him, "What would you do if this was your daughter or your sister or your aunt?" And he wrote me back a three page sworn statement of exactly -- of every single thing that happened. What I experienced, what they did or did not do to the person who violated me and how they just -- the chain of command just swept this whole incident under the rug and I got -- I got my PTSD disability awarded. >> Jason Cain: And then -- [ Inaudible Speaker ] Just one final question [inaudible]. >> Yeah. I had a question [inaudible]. Veterans have a bad habit of not tolerating a lot [inaudible] when they move into the work environment. [Inaudible] so are you [inaudible] veterans with PTSD [inaudible] a higher level of intolerance for that or is [inaudible]? >> David Williams: Let me answer it this way. We have what we call check sessions in my -- my agency. And the BS level for bureaucracy and what goes on politically is one of the -- the main stays of what we have to get through. Because what we see, this would not happen in the military, but here in the federal government, as a federal employee, you've got [inaudible] things and we -- we can't tolerate, but we try not to tolerate, but it's a part of the culture that [inaudible] we have to adapt. And having to adapt, we are veterans that had to adapt to the situations that was less than favorable and we overcame. When we look at these high levels of BS that occur and I apologize for using that -- when we look at it that way, we have to remember, there's someone out there that is a resource to us, that we can get through and we can get our story told or we can figure out the right avenues and the right resources to make things correct. And a lot of this is a paradigm shift between the older individuals in the federal government [inaudible] the younger individuals or the persons [inaudible] military starting up their second and third career that they have this issue with. So we're -- we're trying our best to figure out the common ground between us and not tolerating it and then the other side that was [inaudible]. But you know, you're here, so we're trying to find that middle ground, we've been trying to find the middle ground for quite some time. ^M01:29:58 We'll get there, but it'll take some time and it'll take a paradigm shift. Did I answer your question? >> Uh-huh. >> Jason Cain: Thank you so much. Just want to say, I would like to -- make sure to stick around, we have some refreshments here and then also, the resource tables and Veteran History Project tables in the back. Make sure to stop by and grab some of that information. I'd like to thank our panelists again, thank you very much for taking the time to come down here and thank you all for attending ^M01:30:27 [ Applause ] ^M01:30:31 >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov. ^E01:30:37