>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. ^M00:00:04 [ Silence ] ^M00:00:24 >> Good evening. I'm Anne McLean from the Library's Music Division. We're delighted to have as our guest tonight Matthias Maute. He's widely admired as a virtuoso recorder and traversal flutist, conductor and composer. And he's the co-artistic director with Sophie Lariviere of Ensemble Caprice which is performing tonight. This ensemble is known for programming that critics have called thoughtful, imaginative and progressive. And the ensemble as you can read in your program has appeared worldwide at many, many prestigious festivals like the Boston Early Music Festival, Utrecht and so on. This fall they're in the U.S. on a tour that gives them stops at the Metropolitan Museum and the famous Shubert Club in Minnesota which you probably know. Very top flight venues for a top flight group. Tonight we hear them in a fascinating concert, new world baroque or as Matthias has titled the recording of this work, of this program, Salsa Baroque. It's a complex and colorful cultural dialogue programmed to tracing the vibrant musical encounters between the old and new worlds in the 17th and 18th centuries. These compositions show European harmonies and melodies influenced by Latin, African and Amerindian [inaudible]. A wonderful melange of musics and also a melange of texts as you'll hear tonight, Spanish, French, Italian, [inaudible] and Quechua indigenous languages of New Spain. I like the New York Times quote about Ensemble Caprice that says this is a group that encourages listeners to rehear the world. So with this as a takeoff point, I think it's certainly a quote that talks very directly to the heart of what these musicians are about. So maybe we can start talking Matthias about how you choose programs and how you begin to think of them, develop them, research and prepare them? >> Thank you very much for this nice welcome. Very pleased to be here. It's I think the third time with Ensemble Caprice. I've also performed it with Rebel [phonetic]. And it's always a great pleasure. And well it's actually a fascinating question why? Because it's the question behind it is what is music? And why do we enjoy music? Why is music so important to us? And it turns out recently after like two weeks ago in Seattle I conducted this [inaudible] program at what's called the American Dream dealing with music that was played in Boston in the 18th century. And it turns out that like when people can move from one continent to the other, they had a huge interest in bringing music and enjoying the music they knew. And since I myself have lived that situation, I moved from Europe to Canada in 1999. It really boils down to the question what matters in your own life. And back then I arrived basically with two suitcases, a little more, and a harpsicord came a little later. But what, what can you fit in two suitcases? And I, it turned out in my case a lot of that space was used by my instruments and music. And when you look through music history this is something that goes through the centuries. And right here we are taking a very important point because music is something that is an essential part of our lives. And it, the question, every single time when I put together a program I ask myself a question, how can a program actually express that essential need for music? Because it should be more than just lining up a couple of nice pieces. And also I think it should be more than lining up a historically correct situation which I think is very often the case that we put together a piece of one country or a piece of one period. And so we have the illusion of some kind of straightforward happening event. But you all do know that life is not like that and it can be like a meander of all different events and ups and downs. And to my feeling, music should express and reflect our own lives which has a very particular twist when you think in terms of performing [inaudible] music or music from the past. Which basically 99% of the music you hear in classical music concerts is music of the past. Schoenberg shows [inaudible] people from the past. But what can, yeah well, what can they say about our lives today? And that's a fascinating question because now as you see the first step as a performer and I think also as a listener is that we sort of we look back to what might have been. And obviously when we look at a program like Salsa Baroque, salsa being by the way one of the definitions of the word being different musical genres and styles mixed together. If we look back we get a already a quite colorful picture. And if you think about pieces like [inaudible] we get a sort of a much, it sounds a little dry compared to Salsa Baroque. And we all know it will be a huge intellectual effort. But we just, just by looking back we already realize how many different [inaudible] we have. And meaning, by doing so we realize how different the impact of music can be. Now, so a step in the development of performance practice was to look into well how will they back then perform the music? And like in the '60s, '70s they found out well it doesn't exactly sound like when you hear a modern symphony playing with [inaudible] and steel strings and you, the whole music springs to life if you do it in a way that is closer to what it might have been back then. Now 40, 50 years later according to my feeling we have to carry, bring it a step further. It's not enough to just look back. It's been a very inspiring point of departure. And it still is a very inspiring point of departure. But the real point and matter of fact is does that music actually say anything about ourselves? Do we find ourselves being part of that music? So for me programming is actually it's like an art in itself to try to find a way that enables us, the musicians on stage, to become part of something that is bigger. It's, music is something bigger than we are and it can express something bigger than we are. And this is the quest to every single time on stage to find a way to get there. And the same of course applies and also for the artist. Is it possible for the artist to do, get on the same kind of train and starting somewhere and leaving somewhere else? Which is by the way exactly what happens tonight in the program. We don't exactly take a train though because essentially we are dealing with what would be a little precautious, a little too early. We take a boat tonight and we start somewhere, we'll end up somewhere else which in some ways is a life experience that we all do have. And now what is fascinating about it is that when you hear the story and the concert, when you put the music, when I looked for the music and did research about it, I didn't actually think about it in those terms. I thought about we had that great project putting a CD together. And I was amazed about the repertoire that I was, that was unknown to me and a lot by the way, I had to arrange for the instrumentation and the vocal, the artist we had on that program. But it turned out later that music all of a sudden can become sort of intertwined with the whole story. And that was new to me. I wasn't aware of that. And it seems to be sometimes if you look at music from that angle all of a sudden you get other elements into something like a concert or into a program. And music becomes part of something bigger. So this is what I hope will happen tonight here at the Coolidge Auditorium where I play this program a lot. We have always, we, and always enjoyed a lot to do it because it's something that takes ourselves out of our routine. It's not like going on stage and playing a Beethoven string quartet. It's a lot of music handwritten, a lot of improvisation and you bring short piece mixed together in a way that you have to be very alert to just keep the record straight. And be on the right page at the right moment. >> You know, we were talking earlier about something that's very exciting that you will be able to see yourself. And that is that we have the score for a work, the first piece of polyphony printed in the New World by chance. And we'll get to that in just a moment. But it's on display. And our colleague Ray White will be able to show it to you in the intermission or before the concert. But this is a piece called Anocpacha [phonetic] which you'll, we'll talk about in just a moment. But it's part of the tradition of religious music created in the New World by Spanish missionaries. And in this piece it is a creation by a Native American musician. It's anonymous as I understand it. But to get to that, Matthias and I were talking just a moment ago about the societal structures in these areas of New Spain, Vice Royalties which is a word that I hadn't encountered before. When I began looking into the background of this New World musical culture, I realized that there was a far more layered and complex societal structure than I had at first thought about. Meaning that we think of it as a conquest with tremendous human consequences, you know, empire, invasion, we think of those words. But in fact there were 300 years or so of these territories being governed and there were citadel structures in place, there were urban centers, there were music making centers as well as more informal context. But so since this is such an unknown area for most of us I wondered if you could talk a little bit about what you've learned about in your research about these encounters, how they happened. >> What is really fascinating is the difference between North America and South America in terms of dealing with music. And it has a lot to do with religion. So in North America music had a hard time even to get hymns in the 17th century sung by the puritans and [inaudible] fathers that would be something that was forbidden in some place, in others finally was accepted. But historian Boston someone dedicated, well his, the organ that he had in his place to a church. The church refused the organ because it was not just part of their concept of religious service. Now if we look into South America the story was totally different. And that's something was, it was new to me and I indeed I take it as to just put it in the positive environment. Because we are used to, well all the [inaudible] is, comes with a lot of violence and cruelty and it's, actually it's really terrible. Now on the positive end from that side what happened is that when the [inaudible] moved in actually, comparative great numbers to South America they had an idea of the ideal state. And that was something that was new to me. And it's probably something we all know and that is when we think about something that's far away, all of a sudden the sky's the limit, everything is possible. And you dream of something that should be possible to realize even though it's far away and alien environment. People wouldn't even know how food smells, how the air looks like, everything's just totally different. And this with that idea in mind many even famous musicians parted, left Europe in order to contribute to this ideal state. It's like moving to the moon. Something totally different and starting the whole human history anew. And this kind of excited feeling of a new beginning, this is something that is reflected in the music. Now what they did, first of all they realized that well of course it was part of their mission to bring their Christian faith to other people. And they did it. And they realized a very important element of that would be music. So there's the story of Father Sepp [assumed spelling]. He was born in Germany in the 17th century. Then was recognized in Vienna at the Court as one outstanding choir boy and instrumentalist. He sang for the Emperor, the [inaudible] Emperor. At some point then he went to study. And then as a Jesuit he moved to Paraguay. Now when you move to totally different continent it's not like you can go to a shop and buy an instrument or buy the latest cord. Everything is totally difficult all of a sudden. And I, and I try to project myself into that situation. I mean, just imagine yourself, you find yourself totally disconnected from your usual comfort and usual situation and now to have to find a way. Now he had not only to simply teach people which would be sort of the easy thing to do. He first of all had to make the instruments right there. He could buy instruments and he would bring instruments that he bought in Italy, in Holland, in Spain. It's amazing what they traveled under really difficult circumstances. And would ship all of them to South America. The first [inaudible] arrived with musical instruments. The big victory with [inaudible] that they managed, [inaudible] managed in 1532, that was to big part because they had very noisy rattles and trumpets that made a lot of noise and such great anxiety and fear. Now in the case of the Jesuits they used music to inspire other feelings like joy and well eternal feeling and connections. And, so he, that Father Sepp, he realized that it's not enough to be a Monk or Jesuit, you have to be an instrument maker at the same time. And not just one instrument maker, he would cover everything. So there are reports that they and there are manufacturers today, basically they looked at one organ. How do you make an organ which is one of the most complicated instruments with like thousands of parts. They would look at one, analyze it and make one themselves and actually on a very high level. Same for string instruments, violins, guitars, violas, wind instruments, you name it. They looked at it and just did it themselves. So that was a very important stuff, a part that they, they could make those instruments and export them within the continent. And the next step was indeed to, well then you also need music. And there are a couple of European, very important European musicians like Zipoli came to South America. And in those missions many, many of their pieces are still be found in their archives that have not been performed ever since. That's sort of, because we were busy dealing with [inaudible] and all these big names. But there are lots of treasures to be found. So they had to create their own music. That was the third element after teaching, make instruments, composing music. And also to my astonishment I found that they ordered, simply ordered music in good old Europe and made it ship all the way from one continent to the other. So like composers that would be outdated in Europe and like now if you think of like the 720s in Austria, no one would ever perform pieces by Carroll [assumed spelling] or Schmeltzer or Biber, prominent composer of the 17th century. But here we know that guy, the Father Sepp, he still ordered those pieces from his glorious youth in Europe and make them perform in South America at, in the 18th century. So it's very particular and will play a certain role in our program tonight. >> I was, yeah you chose a piece by Biber, [Inaudible] the Night Watch. >> Yes. >> And we'll get back to that. I'd love for you to tell them that story. But regarding the cathedral situations and the teaching of people, the native musicians and so on, I, someone who had recorded this music said they actually used the [inaudible] hand with the native language spelling out the syllables. This is a, you can explain it better than I. But a diagram of the human hand and you would be able to teach [inaudible], you know, how to learn to read music and so on. So this was a very complicated way, a very layered way of teaching. There were a lot of musicians. I understand that there were native musicians who become so proficient that there was actually a restriction against them occupying certain cathedral positions. That they were extremely good at what they did. >> Well there's a letter of Pope Benedict on February 19, 1749 that he addressed, wrote to his Bishops. And he says, he talks about music in the [inaudible] reductions in South America. The harmonic and figurative singing spread so well that it was established in the missions in Paraguay because the believers in America have an excellent disposition and natural gifts either for the vocal or the instrumental music. And easily learn all that belongs to this art. The missionaries use music to bring the natives their faith in Christ singing prayers with devotion at mercy and reaching high level and ability that nowadays, certainly nowadays there's no difference between the masses and vespers in our countries and those performed there. So of course the Pope he never went there. So it's sort of a, he wanted to scold his Bishops I guess that they should do a little more about music. But still, I mean, it shows the incredible work that has been done. And actually if you look at the music obviously it's been music on, well the same level. Because first of all there came, they came, well many of the composers came from Europe. But also the desire to raise the level as quick as possible was quite prominent. And there's another account of the Father Sepp I just talked a little bit about. He writes that, about a special event when they performed music. And he says we played for his, the congregation a music piece using the big trumpet I brought from Augsburg in Germany, by the way where Einstein was born much later. And a small trumpet I had bought in Genoa. Those good fathers never listened to such music and were touched in their hearts by the sweet music of the [inaudible]. Then together with Father Blum [assumed spelling] I played various flutes I bought in Genoa. And then I played the violin and the trambabaline [phonetic] which is an instrument with only one string and has a similar sound to the trumpet. They built this instrument for me in Cadiz in Spain. The fathers have been extremely happy and were asking for more. During this year and we talk about the year of the Lord, 1692, I formed the following future maestros, six trumpet players, so he taught them to play instruments, three good oboe players, four organists, 30 clarinet players, 18 [inaudible] and 18 bassoon players. The eight new singing teachers are not ready yet although they are improving and learning every day. >> Amazing. >> Yeah, that shows like how music was like, it was a 24 hour occupation, 7 hours, 7 days a week. >> And to go back a moment to this piece that we were talking about earlier, the [inaudible]. Ray, our colleague who puts together the exhibits, we were talking about this piece. And in your notes for your CD, Matthias mentions it's the first piece published in the New World. And I was thinking to myself what does it mean to be published in a context like this. And I was thinking about the Italian printers of music and mostly they were the most visible printers in song. And I was talking to Ray about this and amazingly he found that the library owns a copy of work, a book which you'll see tonight which is not a musical score collection. This work is the only piece of music in the entire book which is a fat volume. But the remainder of the book is an instruction book for priests. It's about the liturgy, the services, baptism and so on, the rights. But they included this two page work which is a procession, right. It was written for procession. >> Well the book shows you, you have to suffer a lot before you get to music making. >> And it makes you think about the universality of musical expression too. And this indigenous language, the subject or the title I think is translates to God, joy of the universe. It's very short and you'll see it out there. And I wanted to take a moment to just say how we chose this program tonight before we move on to talking about the instrumental music. And there's a lot to be said about the collections, like the [inaudible] musica and so on. But I wanted to say that we have some special guests tonight and they are directly involved with the subject of our program. The reason we invited Matthias and Ensemble Caprice here tonight and they are the family of our former Chief, James Will Pruitt. Some of you in the room might know new Dr. Pruitt when he was the Chief here from 1987 until 1994. And we'll mention this more formally at the concert. But I just wanted to say that because of him and his passion for early music, is interested in it, his interest in renaissance scholarship, that this, I was a former student of Dr. Pruitt's. And we thought that perhaps this program would have pleased him. We hope that it would have. And it was kind of remarkable to know him as a person with a deep love for this repertoire. And to know him first as a professor and a very daunting one, remarkable man and then when he came to be the Chief of the Music Division. Here he was a lovely person to work with and it was a revolution for us to call him Jim instead of Dr. Pruitt. And anyway, to add a very personal touch to this, I just wanted to explain some of the background. So again, he was a person who loved to travel. This is a program about musical travels and these are collections of experiences that involve cultures meeting. So it seemed like a very nice match. But going on with some of the things that we talked about earlier like the speed of musical exchange, you, I'm fascinated in how you can track the pieces and how, what was shipped across and what was known and so forth. Maybe talk a little bit about that. >> To my surprise I found out that music traveled a lot and very easily. And I guess a lot also disappeared because the ship's not always made the way to one side or the other. But there's that one report about a piece that had been performed in Brazil and six weeks later it was performed in Lisbon in Portugal. So the music had a very, almost with lightning speed went from one continent to the other. Now it turns out that for practical reasons a lot of music that has been, is still [inaudible] has been conserved in a short score form. So the collection by [inaudible] that was referred to, it's a collection of organ music. And of course has been used for performing on organ and organ and keyboard instruments. However, I strongly believe that many of those pieces have been performed in the, in other circumstances with all kinds of instruments because you would never publish big scores. But we know from reports from the missions they would play with violins, [inaudible], all kinds of wind instruments and many [inaudible] instruments. So you had huge, almost like symphonic bands playing which obviously must be lots of fun. Imagine on Sunday you go to a church service and there's all this like, it's almost like a big musical feast. So that's something that was very attractive. And that kind of colorful music, that was the idea, the very idea that brought that music to my attention. And a lot of music that is, we're playing tonight and that we recorded is actually organ music that has been retransformed into what might have been the case. So you play the music with all different kinds of instruments as it might have been done. And of course one instrument that you will never find any trace of something written down are the percussion instruments. Because rhythms are traditionally not notated, it's all oral tradition. You have to learn the rhythms and our percussionist Rex Benicaza [assumed spelling], he's an expert in dealing with all different kinds of instruments and rhythms. And what is fascinating about what we do tonight is that you find actually a blend of different, different continents. Again, many of the background stories are quite [inaudible]. For instance African influence is not because people from Africa fancied going to South America, it's because on slave ships you are forced to go to this, well to work in this little mines and it was from that and very difficult. Now the music that of course came with the people and some of the rhythms that we find in the printed music have definitely non-European character. And the instruments that come with it, the percussion instruments, perfectly express that side. And from the South American side they are also of course native instruments. And the flute would be particularly well suited instrument to get that color into programs. And we have one piece [inaudible] that we will perform tonight on a little tiny flute. And this is an interesting piece because it was written down by a Jesuit Priest at the end of the 18th century. It has been written down with a upper line and base line. And if you listen, I mean, it really, it's like an ear warms, is that how you say it? It catches the, but at the same time if you think about it while you listen to someone playing that and you write it down, it's actually very difficult to write that down. Either he has listened to it a lot or it, I mean, we don't know exactly how much invention came into the process of writing it down. It certainly, what's particular about it, it's written in three. But a lot of that music is actually in meter of two. So and that's again something that you would rarely find in that way in European music. There's a continuous problem of conflict between three and two going all the way through the music. And that, what we add in this case is percussion which then blends together the base and the upper line in a very particular way. So that's a piece that has definitely has not been composed by a European composer. It's something that came out of the tradition of native American Indians and their way of music making. Again based on what they had learned through generations from a Jesuit Priest. So it's indeed a unique blend of something that could not have happened without history as it occurred. >> You know, your colleague David Jock [assumed spelling] has said that to play these different repertoires which you have very well, you have the know the instrument, the history and its music, all of them. And have a base in arranging and making transcriptions as well. So to do serious research in this way you have to become a very intrepid scholar by necessity as well as interest. >> It's something, it's fascinating. For instance an instrument like the recorder that has the reputation of being a very simple instrument which actually physically speaking is not true because the inside, the bore, which is the soul of the sound is actually physically speaking very complex. Now if, as a recorder player you have many, many different instruments. One reason being that the instrument changes in appearance through history. So this would be like an early 17th century type. It's just one piece of music, music, one piece of wood. And it has a slightly different bore. And you see that when you look at the instrument from the other end. So the more you advance in music history, the more it becomes inverted cornicle and more narrow at this end which makes it easier to hit the higher notes. But these instruments were all, were much more built to make great a very strong lower register. And so for instance I can just demonstrate the sound without mic obviously. ^M00:31:29 [ playing recorder ] ^M00:31:39 And like the later sound would be. ^M00:31:44 [ playing recorder ] ^M00:31:51 It's lighter, also more elegant and has a very different feel to it. Now this type of instrument was called the flute ta Italiano [phonetic] because in 1680s a guy named, recorder player like [inaudible] he published a treatise and presented an instrument [inaudible] in G, not like F like in our days as a G, as a standard instrument. And for the first time we see an instrument cut into three different pieces. And the wonderful ornaments here that are by the way, are not from ivory but from plastic. You know, these days if you travel with ivory you can still hunt elephants in Africa and bring in four tusks a year as American citizen. But you can't travel with any kind of ancient ivory. Anyway, this is plastic, I swear. So they would have to reinforce the wood where they cut, they recorded to different pieces. That's why the very nice ornaments actually have a very practical reason. And so all these gorgeous rings that create likely did in Baroque churches when you look at all these ornaments. Everything became free reign and a straight line was [inaudible] to something different. You see the same phenomenon even on recorders when you compare the artwork impression of those different types. Now my friend and colleague Rex Benicaza, he just showed up with all kinds of instruments that very often don't see in classical music concerts. And he will show a little bit about well the background of those instruments. >> Thank you. Yes, my name is Rex and I'm a drummer and percussionist. And I have a large selection and large collection of instruments that I had, that I've been using in various projects for years. And this is one of the handiest instruments that I won. This is just generally known as a tabor. You've all seen probably a drum that looks very similar to this. This is modeled after the rope tension drums that you see in paintings and illustrations that you might even see being used live for Revolutionary style war drums or Civil War drums. And this is a rope tension skin headed drum. And by rope tension, that means that this is, is being tuned by the amount of pressure you apply with these sliding [inaudible]. And that's what makes the rope pull on the hoop and the hoop pulls down on the counter hoop. And that's what has the head on it. Now this head is a goatskin head. And it's just a tom tom sounding thing. And when I pull these even tighter that it would make the pitch raise. And if I pull tighter. So that's what rope tension is. A modern drum of course has, you know, metal rings on it and it has mechanical screws. And you use a little tuning wrench, a little T shaped thing and you screw the screw into a set piece that's on the shelf. And that's what tunes the top head and the bottom head to various pitches. So this drum is modeled after perhaps you've seen, you know, Rembrandt's Night Watch. Have you seen that painting? It's a big huge thing. And in the lower right hand corner there's a military soldier there and he's got these big drums. And I've looked that thing and said that thing must be in our measurements 20 inches, 22 inches, it looks big. It's a very large diameter drum. That is not this. This is a 15 inch diameter drum. And I made this out of component parts. I bought them online from various drum suppliers. >> Just like Father Sepp in Paraguay in the 17th century, make your own instruments. >> Making your own instruments. And so this is the kind of instrument that was used in Spain and it came over with military, you know, in a military context. And this is [inaudible] this is all of the materials that you would find that would be, could be found anywhere where you have some wood and you had some rope and you had some leather and you had some goats or cows or calf skin. So I made this instrument. And I made it this size because I wanted it to fit in a certain case that I own. And the case had to be able to fit on an airplane that the TSA likes, you know, that size. So that's what, that's what made me choose this size. >> So much for historic performance practice. >> Most the time a tabor is the kind of small instrument that was being used by, you know, pipe and tabor, sort of a very small instrument. And it dangles on your arm and you play the pipe like this and the arm, and the drum then under here. And you have one hand and you play and you accompany yourself rhythmically with that. That's a tabor also but that was too small of an instrument to play some of the ensembles that I use. And I didn't, then I wanted ones that would get a deeper pitch and one that was tunable. So I made this. And if you go onto YouTube you can see video about all, how I put this together called Rex Makes a Drum. And it's 9-1/2 minutes long. And it's, it's pretty informative. If you ever decide you want to do this it will tell you all about where to get the parts and how to put it together and what to watch for. >> Well if it takes 10 minutes to make a drum it should be very easy. >> Yes, 9-1/2, 9-1/2, [inaudible] a little speedy stuff there. So this is, also has a single gut snare on the bottom which was the traditional tabor type of snare. And when you tighten it up and I use, I use a little, little violin peg here and when I, and I have the gut snare wrapped against, on that peg. When I tighten it up it lays up against the head. So now it's supposed to make a buzzing sound like that. It's not supposed to be any tighter than that. It's because vibration is making this little string buzz. In, in the description is that it's supposed to sound like insects. That's the sound you're going for. And then later it became for military use it would tighten up, they would tighten them up and they'd put more than one snare on the bottom, more than one vibrating string. And that's where, a little bit more high pitched sound. And a little bit of a tighter sound to it that was more penetrating to send battle signals, you know, in a higher register. And it was a large drum so that it had low frequencies to carry far distances. So that's the tabor. And I'm going to be hitting this. You'll hear it. Can't be missed. Sometimes I play with my hands, sometimes I use mallets and sometimes I use sticks on this instrument. Do you have any questions about the tabor or about this instrument in particular? Yes ma'am. >> Yeah, goat skin versus calf skin, what are the differences? >> Goats, very good question, goat skin is thinner and to get a large piece of goat skin. This is calf actually, this one's calf. My darbuka, my dumbec that I'm playing is goat skin. And you use what you have available. If you have cows then cow skin's good. If you don't have cows then goats are plentiful. That's and that's what you usually use. But it's hard to get a good piece of large goat skin. And this is, this in here is tucked by a company called Earth Tone. And they actually mount these on the rims that are very similar to modern drum head rims. And they make a great, it's great. Calf skin... >> Should talk about improvisation and open it to them [inaudible] questions. >> It's influenced less by the other conditions meaning humidity levels in temperature. And so it's a little thicker usually, it's a little bit more durable. Yeah, but I like this drum a lot. [Inaudible]. >> So that, because really quick to go on with a little and talk about improvisation and being part of the program which will be interesting. And Anne has actually a question for either you or me. >> Well, you know, for both of you it's interesting to see how your ingenuity has allowed you to literally create your own instruments just like the people we were talking about in South America. But moving from the instruments to improvisation, it takes not only tremendous technique but just tremendous improvisational skills to pull off a concert like this across different styles. So for either or both of you, what kinds of threads for improvisation do you learn, do you teach and do you employ? >> As a melody player it's I think slightly different than for a percussionist because you have harmonies to follow, you have to fit in melody patterns. And rhythm is sort of different story. We make always is chosen the ensemble that of course a percussionist he can't read music so he has to [inaudible] which is not true, certainly not in Rex's case. But it's something, I'm also a composer and it's something we often forget. And I think it applies for all the great composers. Even people like Mozart, Beethoven, even for the greatest composers it's impossible to really define a sound, a precise sound by means, by virtue of writing a score. A score defines a pitch and you try to put in as much information as possible. But there's so little we know about how things even, like I think about Beethoven. The same week he was asked to put on temple indications for an orchestra in Germany and for [inaudible]. And he had such a mess at his base you couldn't find what he just had done a couple days ago. [Inaudible] and the same composer, same piece his temple indications are different. And this is how little, music is, we can't really put it in its 100% form. So it's something that is sort of second, has become a second nature or music we know that music needs to brought by, back to life by the interpret and [inaudible] he writes in his famous method that the player's the soul of the music. It takes a lot of responsibility. And part of the responsibility is to take part in the creation of the music. So you add your own ideas, you add your own ornaments, flourishes, variations, improvisations. So that's something that is sort of composed into the music meaning the composer stops halfway through and leaves the rest up to the player. And in Rex's case I think since a composer didn't write anything down, he leaves it 100% up to the player just hoping that they won't mess too much with his piece. >> Yes, as long as you don't break it, I guess it's okay. I, when I make up parts to play for ensembles like Caprice, I try to think of, I try to listen to what is being played, what is being used and what frequencies in the ensemble are there and where it might be good for me to add something that would be helpful, not to get in the way. But, you know, if you add low frequencies it makes the band sound better this way. And if you use high pitch sounds like [inaudible] and I can play with my hands in the instrument. ^M00:43:47 [ playing drum ] ^M00:43:57 So if you have a couple different sounds, get some wood sounds, wood on wood. I have some metal instruments. I have some skin head instruments. And you try to orchestrate as you go along to make the band sound larger than what it is. And it doesn't take a lot of notes to do that. It just takes hopefully well placed notes that are supporters of where the lead line is and what the singer is singing and the other accompanying instruments so that you don't just bulldoze over everything. The point is to like leave holes and be helpful. So that when your part comes in that it, you know, it elevates the entire sound. Just doesn't clutter things up, no clutter. And I just try to make things up as I go along. And some of sticks and say well that works [inaudible] okay we'll do that every time [inaudible]. But a lot of times [inaudible] follow along. >> Say if you come back next time you'll get a really great concert. >> So does anybody have any questions for the musicians before we let them go back to get ready? No? Oh good. >> Was any of this music hard back in Europe? And did it and what effect did it have? >> The thing is that since like Zipoli, he was maybe one of the, well he was the [inaudible] of South America but he came from Europe after he had a fallout with Carlotti. He was so frustrated he left Naples and went to South America. Actually I don't think that the music, that a large number of pieces found the way back from South America to Europe. First of all there are all these European guys in full production. There was no need of importing all that music and everything was being taken care of. And if a composer was not present at a specific place, the likelihood of anyone's music being performed somewhere else was very small. First of all music was not published. Secondly you needed a person presents to create that interest. So Handel's music would be performed in, whatever was published would go, could go a long way like [inaudible] publications. But that was an exception. Maybe 1% of the music maximum was published. Everything else stayed at a [inaudible] when he wrote in his, his last Will, that all his music should be burned. And he had like piles and piles of music. But his boss, the Duke said actually no, it's my property and I don't allow this music to be burned. So but that would be performed right there and it would not go somewhere else because it was someone else's property so to speak. So I would say the traffic went a long way but mostly from Europe to the South America. And actually mostly [inaudible] because composers would move so they would carry their music within theirselves. They had to [inaudible] composers over there. So that's what I think how things went. Oh yes. >> Oh, thank you for this wonderful opening perspective on how you put your programs together. I really appreciate that. You mentioned that you're a composer. And when you were talking about how the composer is handing off to the performer in a way. I was just wondering when you compose do you have that same, do you have same perspective, sort of leaving your music open for... >> That's very funny because I get like emails, someone writing, what should I do there with this part? What do you mean there and basically I mean, I try to be as professional as possible. But my feelings always well, I mean, figure out something. There's something when you create a piece what is always amazing to myself that at some point you're sort of, you're not, don't disassociate yourself from the music but it seems to be almost like distant. Because when you, when you write something you're so close and it's very intense. And it's almost like being in a different state of mind at times. But then it becomes something that's out there like anything else like an object. And it doesn't really belong to yourself anymore. So I'm totally fine with people or even like arrangement music or something else. It's certainly part of it. But it's because I'm coming from that mindset where adding your own personality actually makes the music, goes without saying. Oh, I'm sorry. >> What are the kinds of sources you actually use to be able to trace the movement of either the music or the instruments to come up with the conclusions about what influenced what and how? >> Well, I mean, there's a lot of information out there with books and scores that already are published. For instance there's a huge book of Christmas music from Mexico. And it's all vocal music and it's all about Christmas. And I was pretty sort of surprised. I mean, I guess so much music about, that is dedicated to Christmas, it almost feels like they knew everything about 21st century and [inaudible] set up of about this celebration. And the other thing is that music like the [inaudible] by [inaudible], it's a huge collection with a couple hundred pieces. Or there's a lot of material you can choose from and try to create connections because many of those pieces could be traced back to a particular composer like by Corelli or Scarlatti or other composers where we, it was obvious that he, [inaudible] he had arranged it himself for organ. So it would be like to try to compare with the original that he had used and then transcribe it into a language that would fit the ensemble you are on stage with. >> I just wanted to follow up on your comment that you like to say to composers that you ask you, you want to tell them well come up with something. Just this afternoon I was at a recital of songs and piano music from turn of the century Vienna. And [inaudible] studied composition with. >> Schoenberg. >> Schoenberg, thanks. And he came up with a movement for a piano sonata. And went to Schoenberg and he said I'm satisfied with this but I can't come up with the other movements, what should I do? And Schoenberg said well maybe it's complete as it is. And it was published as Opus I, a one movement piano sonata. So this completely different... >> Sometimes less is more. >> Yeah. But this completely different [inaudible], the same principle of composing applies. >> Right. >> Given the three centuries, the span of time that you've been looking into. I don't want to help wide the span is for tonight's program. But obviously the beginning with the Jesuits there's the Ecclesiastical context for the music. But does there a time when you find pieces are commissioned either by government officials or by wealthy patrons, where the Portuguese or Spanish? >> In, for our program it's either has indeed Christian religious background or for the other side and that's interesting because we talked about the social and political structure. A lot of music in Spain and then also [inaudible] in South America was actually performed in the streets. And so a lot of that music is based on the principle of variation. So when you, most of the time when you hear Shannon Mercer [assumed spelling] our wonderful soprano singing, it's about, it's about religious celebration. But when the instruments play it's a lot about that music in the streets. And it has like eight [inaudible] pattern or harmonic pattern that is repeated over and over again. And then you to ornament it and extemporize on that. And that's what happened all the time. Most of the Spanish guitar music is based on that principle. And that means basically it's literally like jazz music where we have found a little jam, a pearl, eight bars that really make sense. It's so much fun. And then, you know, we just take off and have all the fun of the world. So that's the other side. It's again, a blend of styles and genres. Yes, because on the one hand it's sort of serious music even though and that's the amazing fact. If you looked, listened to that [inaudible] that was performed right before intermission, it's again a Christmas tune but comes with rhythms that we would not necessarily associate with Christmas or like a celebration because for us it's solemn and slow. But [inaudible] dancing and, you know, it's, you tip your toes. If you dance in the hall [inaudible] it would be exactly according to historical performance practice. ^M00:53:27 [ pause ] ^M00:53:36 >> Would you just tell us one more time what the snare is made of? >> Yeah, this is a, this is just a gut string from a lute that happened to be [inaudible] string. So this is just basically a gut string you'd find on [inaudible]. It's just yeah, just a single gut snare on it. That's pretty standard. >> The lute being other animal. We had the goat, the cow and now it's the lute, yes. >> But having a snare resonating on the bottom head is very popular in North Africa. In Morocco there are these big frame drums that have strands across the, snare strands, similar to modern snare drums. And it's usually three gut snares laying right across the head. This is [inaudible] Morocco and this one does not have the strands on it. This is [inaudible] also but this one has, from the [inaudible] mountains and it has [inaudible] on it, jingles on it and giant tambourine. But this [inaudible] would have three gut snares across it. And the idea was to make it [inaudible] have a pleasant sound. And that's the whole style of the family of instruments that you find throughout North Africa which of course those instruments faded away with the wars in Southern Spain [inaudible] 700, 800 years. And the idea never left and there's plenty of information we have about Jewish Christians and [inaudible] people combining their cultures and their [inaudible] music and poetry. And these instruments, these kind of instruments are seen in the sketches and drawings [inaudible]. So this instrument is from the Atlas Mountains. This is [inaudible] instrument. And this is sheep skin. This one is sheep, it's large. And it's just a wood frame drum and it has, that's what. And this one is played with very, sort of very full hand technique. I don't always play it like that. Sometimes I need to do a lot of small notes which is not as folky but it's good for [inaudible]. >> So we hope we'll see you dancing tonight a little bit. Maybe any last, one last question. >> Just a quick one. >> Yeah, one. >> I'm just wondering if you have any tidbits for the insiders in this room. That maybe some cool or subtle thing in the concert that we should be particularly looking out for? >> That's a very interesting question. Well let me just go, for instance in the second part we start with a trilogy of a battle piece. The second movement of the battle it's a slow movement which in the original it comes just with open cords in the organ. But we have arranged it in a very different way. I think that's interesting because it shows how far away you can go from the original. But in some ways actually stay very close to the spirit. I, one of the pieces I just love is, and the end of the first set [inaudible] that is to be found in the collection [inaudible]. Just a wonderful [inaudible] by an anonymous composer, we don't know who it is. And a lot of music has that kind of anonymous background. It feels someone came up with an idea, maybe someone else wrote it down. And it brought the idea to my mind that there's so much music that is not necessarily associated, we're so prone to, you know, Bach and Beethoven, they're the great musicians and everything else is sort of nothing. And it turns out that certainly like tonight's you will hear all these [inaudible] you've never heard of and they're just the most incredible musicians. And it's so easy for ourselves, we have to [inaudible] to find ourselves in music, to identify, to be part of it. It's a wonderful, it seems to be like a wonderful expression of ourselves. And I'm so pleased that there are so many people who are actually there exposing themselves to music that is not written by those acknowledge big geniuses but by unknown musicians who have just wonderful things praying on their mind. >> Thank you. >> Well thank you so much Matthius, Rex. >> Thank you. ^M00:58:07 [ Audience Applause ] ^M00:58:12 >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.