>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. ^M00:00:03 ^M00:00:23 >> Grant Harris: Welcome to the Library of Congress. I'm Grant Harris, I'm head of the European Reading Room in this European division. And we're very pleased to have today Igor Fedyukin speaking to us about the Schools that Peter the Great Built, Projectors and the State in Early Modern Russia. And Professor Fedyukin works at the National Research University, the Higher School of Economics in Moscow. He's an associate professor of history there. But he's been here since September in Washington, DC as a Woodrow Wilson scholar and he only has about two more weeks left and then he goes back to Moscow. So this is for us kind of a high point. We get to hear from him some of what he's been researching while he's been here. And part of that topic is the Schools that Peter the Great Built, that's just part of a larger book that he's working on. There is this conception that Peter the Great pretty much he was so great he did everything. He created schools, he created all these institutions. But in fact, he did not do this single-handedly and what Professor Fedyukin will be talking about today is the greater role played by the administrative entrepreneurs or they use this word projecteur [phonetic] also. So I assume they take that from the French. >> Right. >> Very much. And it was they who pursued their own career goals and pet ideas and competed for status and resources that when they were heading or administrating these various institutions. So Professor Fedyukin, thank you for being here today and I'll turn it over to you and please help me welcome Mr. Fedyukin for being here. >> Igor Fedyukin: Thank you so much. It's great to be here and it is certainly a high point of my stay here in order to be able to talk here. I'm really grateful to a number of wonderful institutions which made this talk possible. First and foremost of course, the Library of Congress and the European Division that was [inaudible]. I'm very, I mean it's a huge honor. Also of course, the Woodward Wilson Center for Scholars, which enabled me to spend a wonderful year here working at the library. As you might know or might not the Woodward Wilson Center actually has a program where they let you do sort of inter library loan, actually sort of requesting books from the library to be brought to your office. And I just sort of didn't do that preferring instead to come here. Well because I'm very sort of conscientious whatever. >> Conscientious. >> Conscientious yeah and care about the books a lot and just kind of really bothered me a lot to make book trail kind of all the way from here or like over here, you know, like to the Wilson Center and back. But also because it's just nice to be here, it's such a wonderful library, it's such a wonderful reading room and just great to be here. And it's my particular pleasure to present here my book project, which is finished by now. It's under review at one of the major publishers, hopefully it will be showing up in your catalogue, you know, at some point. Maybe next year or year after. And indeed it's about schools. Now when we talk about schools in Russia, education in Russia -- modern education in Russia of course we think that, I mean the first thing that comes to our mind is that well it's the state run schools right. It's a state whatever it means that administers them, creates the, staffs them, funds them, determines, you know, the direction of their development. But what does the state mean? I mean today it's easy right, I mean there's the Ministry of Education signs for bad to worse right which that's what it does right. Appoints directors, creates institutions, merges them, closes them down, funds them. Well in the 18th century [inaudible] 18th century in Russia and elsewhere those normally there was no Ministry of Education signs. So how did it work and indeed it's very easy because of course, we have Peter the Great who single handedly was creating everything, you know, designing all the institutions, all the wonderful new ideas, projects, innovations. All of them are traceable to his insights, his energy, and his just vision. And of course, he did all of that because he was creating a new regular army and so it was natural in the Navy, in engineering and fortresses whatever right. So it was natural for him to establish schools. Modern secular technical schools. Now Peter the Great was a great ruler no question about that. So my purpose today is not to undermine, you know, his claims for greatness and, you know, for vision. And he certainly was a very active ruler no question about that. I mean if we go into archives we'll find piles upon piles of documents which he personally edited. You know, he would really spend like days or weeks personally in his own hand, kind of edit and successive drafts of whatever regulations or documents or for, you know, his navy. I mean whatever documents he considered important. Can write entire sections sort of from scratch in his own hand. So no question about that. The problem is that the schools were not one of those sort of topics that he really wrote much about. I mean we know Peter as this great sort of educator of Russia right of course and create new schools, teaching his subjects, instructing them in the new secular or technical sciences. It's one of the trademarks of his reign right. Well the problem is there's not much of a paper trail. What we really have from human schools are, you know, just sort of like one-liners, teach young guys arithmetic. Well that's very important that he sends this message right and we appreciate that. But any of us who have ever had anything to do with administering things, you know, we realize that, you know, there is a huge gap between this sort of, you know, let it be kind of you know thing. And actual institutions somebody has to actually determine teach where, teach whom, teach how, who should be doing the teaching, how those people should be funded. And I mean I don't want to sound as if, you know, I'm trying to retroactively impose our modern kind of standards of administrative kind of deficiency, administrative clarity upon, you know, like 18th century people. No, I mean if we look at his contemporaries, his officials they do firmly I mean this is problem that, you know, it's just kind of too vague. I mean one of his most famous decrees on education and school his 1714 decree on so-called cipher schools. A decree which set up a network of cipher schools all over the empire. Like two teachers was supposed to be dispatched to every province to teach young guys arithmetic. And that's what -- here's what one Andre Belikov [assumed spelling] has to say about that and Mr. Belikov he was an experienced official, I mean he spent his entire career in the sort of administrative agencies. And he was also like reactionary or conservative, you know, who is like a [inaudible]. I mean he was actually a close associate of this one person who's name is Leonty Magnitsky who was most prominent teacher of mathematics at the time, he was his patron. ^M00:10:03 He was very closely involved with managing so-called navigation school sort of a very important school period. So he was empathetic towards schooling and learning and studying. But here's what he has to say, I mean and he writes to his immediate superior at [inaudible] referring to this February 1714 decree on cipher schools. This decree is obscure [inaudible] and without many of the conditions which should be there. If you order us to implement it more specific chapters ought to be sent to us and without them this business of cipher schools can be neither extend nor even established. And so he lists, you know, specific questions which has to be answered before he could actually proceed with implementing decrees like, you know, who should be his counterparts in the provinces, how many teachers should be sent like, you know, and so on and so forth. In 1720, Peter orders that 100 apprentice pilots be thought and again, among the [inaudible] malpractice papers there is a copy of this decree and the anonymous official [inaudible] margins. And what they have to be taught and how they have to be maintained in said teaching there is no exact resolution on that. So there is this gap. Now I don't want to be too harsh on Peter in a sense that, I mean how exactly should he kind of modern secular technical school for officers, for sailors, for [inaudible]. How exactly should [inaudible] period was not immediately clear. In a sense I mean that if we go into sort of western Europe [inaudible] century those kind of schools are only beginning to emerge there as well. I mean the British Navy, the Royal Navy didn't have any school for training, you know, naval officers until well into pretty much the end of the 19th century. I mean they were training aboard ships and [inaudible] would, I mean would get some basic education, you know, like whatever schools were there on land. But then, you know, as for like actual navigation they would actually would go on board ships and like learn as apprentices, learn kind of by doing. You know, they would be involved in practical tasks. And, you know, perhaps the captain will spend, you know, a few hours a day or a week, you know, kind of instructing them and do mathematics, but that's all. And actually when Peter himself, well I mean of course, you know, all the education here he got himself was kind of personal tutorship right as all other kings, you know, of that age would right. But I mean when he famously went to Western Europe to learn ship building, you know, the Dutch or the English what could they could offer him, you know. I mean he had to learn by doing it again, you know, the work you know through this apprentice sort of non-formalized, non-institutionalized kind of apprenticeship. So those things were only being invented. And my question is how exactly they were invented. And here I want to talk about the specific school it's called the Naval Academy. It was establish in 1715 in Saint Petersburg, an important school, sort of one of the first schools of the kind in Europe actually. Trained scores of admirals and naval officers and of course, you know, lots of graduates, you know, went elsewhere, you know, sort of pursued careers in government or other technical branches. Now how exactly it was created. How exactly it was created, I mean we know that Peter created it in 1715 and we know that its founder was this guy called baron de Saint-Hilaire. A Frenchman not much is known about him until of course yours truly came along. But it was generally assumed that he was probably a French, you know, admiral, a naval expert who was, you know, hired by Peter to set up the school. I mean it was also known that he was fired pretty soon after a couple of years and it was known that he had like all sorts of tensions with his Russian colleagues. So it was assumed that he has this sort of very troublesome kind of personality. And now what -- how did it actually work? I mean this baron de Saint-Hilaire he was born in Southern France in Bordeaux I think in the merchant family, in the [inaudible] family and his name was Hilaire [inaudible]. He was involved in trade for a while, got imprisoned for insurance fraud, sentenced for galleys and escaped. Escaped across the border to Spain where the war was going on, the war of Spain succession between the Franco Spanish army on the one hand and the Anglo Portuguese army on the other hand. So he somehow gets in touch with this French commander and he's employed for a while as a messenger between the French camp and Lisbon trying to arrange for separate peace negotiations with the Portuguese. After a few months of doing that he goes over to the English with the papers. Thereby sabotaging, you know, the separate peace negotiations. He's taken over to London, he gets 500 pounds. The English at that point know him as Joseph Haller, a merchant. So he gets 500 pounds, he wants more, begins kind of scheming and intriguing and gets into English jail. In May 1712, he is extradited, they dump him on the Dutch coast. In September 1712, the same year in Vienna there is a decree which is signed by the emperor which appoints a Flemish nobleman, baron de Saint-Hilaire or [inaudible] de Saint-Hilaire as the Capitan del mar e Guerra. Sorry my Spanish pronunciation. Captain of war and then sea in Naples. It's the same person. He claimed later on that when he got to the Hague he got in touch with Duke of Marlborough who was kind of appalled by the shabby treatment of the distinguished, you know, kind of agent that, you know, that he got so little for his services to the English crown and Spain. So he introduces him to Prince Eugene, but of course in fact Duke Marlborough he arrived to Hague that year only in December so they couldn't have met in Netherlands. Anyhow, he starts new career as baron de Saint-Hilaire in the service of the [inaudible]. There are like also conspiracies, he attempts to burn the French navy in [inaudible]. He is imprisoned in Genoa, no in Milan I think for an affair with the general's lady, released. Then the Imperials imprison him again in Naples, he escapes again. So one way or another by January 1715 he's in Saint Petersburg. Allegedly, he has been invited to join us in service. [Inaudible] story not clear, it's neither confirmed nor denied by the Russians who allegedly invited him. Anyhow, when he gets to Saint Petersburg he does two things. First, he gets introduced to the court of Princess Charlotte who is the wife of [inaudible], the son and the heir to throne, Peter's son. And a month later he's engaged to her favorite lady in the waiting who by the time was 38 years old. So for the period of course, that was you know. >> Old. >> Igor Fedyukin: Quite yeah. ^M00:19:58 So I mean that might be the explanation why she kind of jumped from the start, you know, he was dashing or whatever. He should have been dashing, you know, Frenchman. But suddenly she provides him with a channel for access to the court, to the princess, you know, he gets like all sorts of letters of introduction from her to Russian officials. Actually to the English court again. But he also gets to meet Peter and a few weeks later he produces, you know, this number of projects and we're going to talk about projectors or projecteurs. A number of projects of very different kind. There is a project established in the commission for producing, you know, naval regulations. There's a project for building little [inaudible]. So he promised to go there because there's the cheap lumber and cheap sort of artisans and sailors there. So all he need is a letter of credit. And he also writes the proposal for setting up a naval academy in Russia and that Peter approves. Now what does it mean, what exactly does it mean that Peter approves it? How exactly does it work and what kind of project tis that? I mean first of all, the very project is a verbatim translation of a French 1689 I think regulation sort of took verbatim two sections from the French regulation and just kind of translated them. Now Peter certainly was interested in training his subjects in things naval right, I mean even before that. No question about that, I mean he was very much involved in sending the young Russian nobles to train with the European navies. He was very much interested in just sort of overall pushing the Russian nobles to study, you know, in couple of years before that he kind of begins to sort of [inaudible] systematically kind of force like young nobles to kind of to come to Saint Petersburg to sort of where he views them personally, assigns some of them into the service and some of them to study. So this overall framework, this overall interest right on Peter's part is sort of there. What's not there is the specific idea to have a naval academy right, to have a sort of an institutionalized school. And also certainly Peter was familiar with this regulation, with the French regulation which Saint-Hilaire used. Actually and before meeting Saint-Hilaire Peter orders a translation of this regulation right. But Saint-Hilaire actually didn't use it and he did his own translation. So it's like certainly Peter was predisposed towards like, you know, teaching his nobles, instructing them in naval regulations. But the specific idea, the specific institutional form was produced by this guy. Peter approved it in a sense that we, I mean we have no evidence of Peter actually specifically reacting to this document right. No corrections, no changes, no paper trail of him like giving sort of like any -- providing any input. So was it like, you know, okay [inaudible] here's the project. Yeah fine okay great, you know, like do it. I mean how did it work, I mean did Peter actually buy -- how much Peter actually bought into this idea, how much he actually, you know, was involved in talking about specific details, I mean we don't know. There is no, I mean we don't -- at least we neither me nor my predecessors were actually able to find a copy of the project actually signed by Peter. But we do know that so this guy comes to Saint Petersburg in January, in February he submits the proposal. In the spring he marries this girl in the presence of [inaudible], in the presence of the court so it's kind of she's the favorite late in waiting to the crown princes, so it's a kind of court event. Peter is present, his wife, his you know like his family. And as a part of the celebration, as a part of the -- well as when gift almost like, you know, it's announced publicly that, you know, the thing that the school is going to be created, this guy is going to be appointed director with a title of general and admiral both. You know, he will get a good salary and the school will get a building where of course, the newlyweds would also reside. So in summer of the same year the thing is sort of set in motion. Students come, you know, the school is actually being set up. Now how much is Peter involved with it later on? I mean there is one episode when he actually does write things regarding school. In October 1715 he approves instruction to this naval academy. This instruction is actually again written by this guy Saint-Hilaire himself. It does have sort of sections added on by Peter with his own hand. But they added again [inaudible] from this guy. So what he does, you know, he writes like rules for the school and he actually explicitly refers people to assign, you know, to establish some punishments for violating those rules right. So that's what Peter does he scribbles in, you know, like for this for violating this rule, you know, they should be beaten or whatever right. So that's his contribution. He does visit the school twice in the fall of that year, in the fall of 1715. Then he departs to Europe again for a year and a half. And the next recorded instance of him visiting the school is 1724 kind of right before his dead. And that's also interesting because, you know, there's wonderful source of so-called campaign journals, basically journals which Peter or his staff kept where they recorded, you know, like what he had been doing. I mean those journals of course are not complete right, but they are pretty detailed. I mean so for many weeks or days we know okay, where he went to eat, where he let's say [inaudible] like he went to church, you know, he stayed overnight there, he planted apple trees, he went to the hospital to inspect, you know, sick soldiers whatever. Not a single mention of him ever visiting this old modern secular school. At the same time there are like numerous records of him being personally involved with training what he called Gaza [phonetic] marine, you know, so naval guards, sort of midget men. Basically a sort of scheme to train naval offices as apprentices. So many graduates of this naval academy they will join this company of Gaza marine. And with that Peter was very much like hands-on kind of involved, you know, he would actually make sure they will get their salaries, their stipends are paid, you know, they will be like transferred assign. He would like oh, you know, like you know those guys are assigned for raining in Venice, you know, but now Venice is at peace with the [inaudible] so there is not much stuff going on. So like transfer them to Spain instead, you know, like. So that's his project right, that's his understanding of training. That's what he is kind of very much personally involved with. As for the school, this formal institution, it's just not his kind of thing. So to the extent Peter created the school right? To the extent I could say that he defined this sort of institutional outlook. I would argue that in this case as in many, many other cases yes, he set the -- or other rulers. ^M00:30:05 He set the overall framework right, he set this sort of -- he indicated the overall direction kind of. He indicated what sorts of projects would be supported or would be more likely to be supported. Sort of set the boundaries of what's possible what's not. But otherwise, you know, sort of the specific trajectories, the specific institutional shapes that was very much defined in [inaudible] by yes, administrative entrepreneurs. By people who are hoping to make career by selling expertise, by selling projects hoping to invent jobs for themselves who are hoping to invent jobs for their clients. But of course, they also needed clients to set up institutions, so that's the kind of sort of process who are hoping to impress the sovereign by being effective. So if you do a project right you also make sure that you present, you know, your achievements that are like parades or presentations of the best students so that your star pupils are sort of taken to the court and there they, you know, like recite poems or parade or, you know, perform. There were tricks to presenting the best light. So if you're an important official you try to do many projects, you might be acting as a broker right sort of kind of all sorts of experts. They're real experts and of course, not [inaudible] you know between the real expertise and imposter. What's really kind of tricky I mean this guy I mean if he -- well I mean the thing he wasn't really kicked out because, you know, sort of somebody was unhappy with it. Oh that's a [inaudible] model school, you know, it's poorly run whatever. I mean he was kicked out because he got into this ego sort of thing with the Russian aristocrats sort of assigned to supervise him. The Frenchman thought that, you know, like he should have no supervision. And if he managed to get along with the Russian government he might have well, you know, like be listed in the history books as this, you know, wonderful, you know, expert who we know Peter so wisely invited, you know, to join the Russian service. So basically what with I do in my book I look at the key episodes of institutional [inaudible] like that beginning from sort of kind of late 17th century and up to Catherine the Second. And I stop on the eve of Catherine's reign for a variety of reasons. One of them being that because Catherine is such a big topic since, you know, should be kind of so much stuff going on that, you know, like that could be a book, you know, sort of a separate book. And basically I look at the key episodes of institutional innovations in that period in education kind of new schools being created or reformed. And try to look at them not from the point of view of this kind of progressive [inaudible] kind of sort of oh, you know, things were developing, you know, like becoming more sort of secular, formal, institutionalized because they had to right. But rather show how this sort of institutionalized and the creation of new schools, new institutions their evolution how it reflects the [inaudible] of different types of entrepreneurs. Thank you. ^M00:34:11 [ Applause ] ^M00:34:16 >> Grant Harris: Thank you, very entertaining [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Thank you. >> Grant Harris: Are there questions? ^M00:34:26 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:34:28 >> Igor Fedyukin: Well it's a very good question. ^M00:34:34 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:34:35 Well I mean for that period of course, most of those guys they didn't know German French, so it had to be Russian. Sometimes they would involve translators, but what they would do of course -- well I mean most teachers were actually Russians right. So there were few foreigners who kind of would take a few Russians who already knew kind of the math for example. I mean math, I mean for those technical schools of course, math was a key thing right because you needed math for engineering, you needed math for navigation. So those teachers would arrive and they would really kind of work with a few kind of advanced pupils right, kind of elder people who already know the math, you know, who learns the math in [inaudible] and who also knows all four languages. So they will be instructing those Russians in sort of advanced math while those, you know, kind of apprentices right would in turn be instructing, you know, sort of the beginners right. So yeah, so that was mostly Russian. >> I have kind of a similar situation. I understand [inaudible] that Peter everywhere he went they knew him. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> In which ever area he [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. ^M00:36:14 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:36:15 >> He took up so many different things [inaudible]. He would pick experts. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> In that particular field and he would send them or take them to Russia. So he also had this huge [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right, absolutely yeah. ^M00:36:32 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:36:34 >> And so what he would do -- so these people [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> And I would have assumed that they would have instructors [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> Whereas there was a whole group of foreigners [inaudible] in Saint Petersburgh [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> And there I would have assumed that some of these people would training the. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> The people from the [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. ^M00:37:01 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:37:04 >> So I [inaudible] and then you have the other side. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> Where Peter was very much against all the [inaudible] of tradition and. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right yeah. >> And he wanted people in general to kind of shed that. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> And kind of move into the modern world. So I was kind of looking to hearing a little bit not just about the [inaudible] I was kind of hoping to hear a little bit more if there were any way that education [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right, right, right. ^M00:37:46 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:37:48 >> But I knew he had certain interests and those he focused on. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> But was there [inaudible] by the rest of the [inaudible]. Do you see what I'm getting? >> Igor Fedyukin: No. >> Okay, the Russians in general. >> Igor Fedyukin: Well, I mean -- well I mean movement you mean like, you know, kind of sort from below kind of right. >> No, not just from below from him to say to his people I have been abroad. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> I have seen how this function, let's see what we can do here and [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right, yeah but I mean I guess that's you're absolutely right and I guess that's exactly what I'm saying right. In a sense that, you know, that he sets his direction and then there are people who want to exploit this sort of all kind of, you know, message to make careers or to. >> Any results from any efforts? How far did he move Russia from before he was there in general terms of education? Educating the Russians in particular areas or? >> Igor Fedyukin: Right. >> In general [inaudible]? >> Igor Fedyukin: Well, I mean I'm afraid it's impossible to say, you know, sort of like how far kind of move or didn't move. I mean that's, I mean what does really kind of movement. What do you mean like [inaudible] of literacy or? ^M00:39:20 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:39:22 Well that's impossible to say, that's impossible to say. But certainly [inaudible] there were both sort of Russians who went abroad and who came back and who tried to make careers by kind of selling their, I mean whatever skills they have acquired. But also foreigners can be invited. But I mean here again, I mean there is [inaudible] most important called the [inaudible], a Scotsman. ^M00:40:02 So I mean Peter personally hires him while in London at the end of the 17th century. He personally hires him, invites him to come to Russia. He does that with two sort of assistants. But what happens then is that he sort of he [inaudible] in Moscow like for two years, you know, there are like no evidence of Peter actually sort of, you know, kind have been involved and kind of setting up a school whatever. And I mean I get it, you know, Peter was pretty busy, you know, doing like all those wars and diplomacy and rebellions. But sort of when the thing actually kind of moved ahead is when this guy projector sort of profiteer whatever you call him, sort of inventor of new things comes along. This guy sort of who promotes himself by sort of submitting all sorts of projects to Peter, by advising Peter on all sort of things. And one of the things, you know, he takes over those teachers. Requests Peter to appoint him to be in charge of the school sort of. Finds a way to actually redirect funding from a different source because he's also official elsewhere. So he's official at the armory, so he requested those teachers be transferred to the armory so then now he could use, you know, the armory funding to actually to fund the thing. He also uses, you know, this new school. He gets Peter to sign decree like setting up a school, but then he uses to school to employ his kind of own friends. Which I mean it doesn't mean that, you know, that it's like terrible, I mean his friends are actually educated and, you know, turn out to be pretty good teachers and sort of important cultural initiative. He uses the school to promote himself later on. I mean immediately when they do this sort of when they start the school they write a textbook of their own and they prepare this, you know, very sort of luxurious edition, you know, sort of very nicely kind of done on expensive paper and sort of present it to Peter saying like look at us we've done that. I mean we're your faithful servants, we need to be rewarded by the way. So and just to finish up and actually what happens is that yes, I mean Peter sends an overall message, but then, you know, they're all like really lots of kind of well private teachers or private initiatives to instruct, you know, [inaudible]. Foreign teachers coming to kind of practice, you know, either trying to get support from Peter or just like privately kind of practicing teachers. Peter is at war trying to earn money by, you know, by teaching the Swedes or also the Russians kind of trying to earn extra money, you know, like by just teaching basic literacy. So I mean you really kind of find this movement. As I say, [inaudible] interaction to Peter's kind of sort of vague push, you know, kind of [inaudible] so. ^M00:43:32 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:43:52 >> Igor Fedyukin: Well, I mean disorganized is a tricky thing because, you know, well I mean in the sense that you know like when you want to kind of to do reform. When you only want to sell yourself [inaudible], I mean that's what you say oh they're so disorganized, you know, I must appoint a [inaudible] straighten them up. So it's kind of tricky, but you're right yeah. ^M00:44:14 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:44:15 Yeah. ^M00:44:16 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:44:22 Of course, of course sure yeah. I mean that's [inaudible] help and, you know, there are all those and of course, there are articles and now that so many books are, especially older books are available, you know, sort of digitized, you know. ^M00:44:40 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:44:42 The resource? ^M00:44:44 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:44:45 Well, I mean of course I using [inaudible] of course right, I mean that's for like [inaudible] magazine articles. I use [inaudible] here it's really great to be able to use how is it pronounced ha, hati? ^M00:44:58 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:44:59 [Inaudible] yeah, absolutely it's a really great resource for like older books where you could, you know, sort of download things. Yeah, I mean going beyond the Library of Congress of course the one sort of real amazing thing which the French have is this thing called Gallica where you could actually do -- I know with those old books, you know, sort of scanned copies could actually do kind of, you know, like a keyword search. You know, they have sort of like, you know, word recognition software which allows you to search, you know, through like 17th century books kind of. That's like really amazing and helpful kind of. ^M00:45:43 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:45:45 Yeah, national [inaudible]. ^M00:45:48 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:45:53 >> Grant Harris: I'd ask you to speak up [inaudible] so we can. ^M00:45:57 >> Well you focused on the naval academy I'm interested about other schools and how popular they were and what the [inaudible]. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right okay. Yeah. >> Grant Harris: If you could repeat the question. >> Igor Fedyukin: Right yeah. So the overall -- sort of other schools and like, you know, how the population react. Well I think it actually reacted pretty positively. In the sense that I know there was this myth that oh they're all like against learning. I don't think we actually have, you know, direct evidence for that. What they were against actually they were against, you know, like being forced to do things which did not correspond to their, you know, life and career strategies. And that was really important and that changes, you know, kind of throughout the period. Because I mean what happened initially, you know, say around the year 1700, say this navigation school is created, everybody's invited, they pay this small stipend. So they actually have like, you know, lots of people coming to study there. Of course, that's [inaudible] right, it's like usually [inaudible] ability, some of the soldiers or for instance, you know, all those kind of like poor boys who really kind of want to get, you know, the small stipend of whom it's important. You know, they come making hundreds you know. So they hire [inaudible], lots of them, you know, like go ahead and, you know, enroll in schools too. But of course, they prefer to enroll into other schools. You know, for example there is this like private school around by this German pastor who provides -- well he presents as a gymnasium right. So he presents it as sort of more like, you know, kind of more refined education kind of, which more fits, you know, their self-perception as a part of European [inaudible] right. So there you would have like fencing and, you know, sort of horse riding in terms of more of sort of [inaudible] academy kind of type of education. And they go there too on their own. When it does change is when around 1715 he actually tries to push them all into schools where he wants them to be not where they want to be right. For example, he bans all the sort of like no nobles from entering this navigation school and naval academy and instead forces, you know, [inaudible] to be able to go into naval academy. Which doesn't fit their, you know, life strategies which is really expensive. And actually one of the reasons why they want to force the [inaudible] in the naval academy because it's in Saint Petersburg. It's real expensive to live there because it's far away from the major kind of population center, so it's like really all the supplies are really expensive there. And by that time the war has been going on for like 20 years they really don't have the money. So they basically want them to kind of to live on their own, to use their own kind of money. And people kind of like are really unhappy about that. And there is like no clear sort of argument for promoting them. ^M00:49:59 So like earlier in this navigation school like lower in ability, sons of soldiers, I mean they were happy just to get their salary and to get, you know, like entry-level job [inaudible] scribes or technicians or money counters. And now you have those princes, you know, who spend like, you know, like whatever number of years at this naval academy have to pay for that and [inaudible] prospects, you know, because I mean after graduation they get to them sort of Gaza marine. The great northern war ends, so there's like, you know, demand for naval offices, you know, like is lower. You know, like promotion is much lower because people not being killed, you know, like every year right. So like no openings and they're like stuck there like for 10 years without any promotions. Yeah of course, they resist that, of course they tried to evade that. So what happens in 1730 is that they actually -- all the nobles still have to serve and still have to study, but what they do they actually give them freedom of choice. They let them themselves choose, you know, between sort of going to school or going straight into regiments as private soldiers and making their career there. And they give them a choice of -- give them a sort of right to choose between different schools. Actually when young nobles come to this place called the [inaudible], the special office which registers young nobles for service and then kind of supervises their careers sort of kind of human resources kind of office, you know, the imperial scale. And they actually ask them, you know, where they want to serve and, you know, they record their preferences. And I've actually looked into that and sort of an article came out in the Journal of Social History just [inaudible]. But in about two thirds of cases they actually appoint them according to their preferences right. And that works much, much better in the sense that, you know, they're actually people for who -- for whatever reasons because of family connections, family preferences, you know, who opt for schools. And then there are other people who opt for, you know, just joining the service as private soldiers and it works. So freedom is important, freedom of choice yeah. >> I have a question. What happened to this fellow Hilaire after? >> Igor Fedyukin: Yeah. ^M00:52:46 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:52:47 He is kicked out. I mean the last, so the latest we hear from him is -- I mean he hangs out in Saint Petersburg for like about a year and a half kind of tries to sort of -- tries to get his salary kind of due to him plus gets new appointment. And then in 1720 he goes over to the Swedes and the last kind of thing I was able to find about him is his letter to the Swedish admiral kind of advising him of how to attack the Russian held [inaudible]. So it's a long and winding road yeah. ^M00:53:43 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:53:47 Well, you know, I mean it's. ^M00:53:54 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:53:58 Right well, I mean of course education is always [inaudible]. Yeah, no well that's a good question. Certainly, I wouldn't say that right now that Peter is the most popular of the rulers, I mean in sort of, you know, official discourse. In the sense that this idea of kind of learning from Europeans kind of sounds a little bit kind of questionable. Also there is a large difference in the sense that -- there is a huge difference in the sense that yes, I mean there are like all sorts of reform initiatives in the Russian education kind of that's been going on for the past like 10 years or whatever. But at the same time certainly I'll say that for President Putin, you know, education sense it's not his thing right. I mean he doesn't have this -- I mean there are like areas where he sort of once again, he's kind of passionate about right. And sort of and education is not one of them. So it's much more again, you know, about project, about you know important dignitaries, important ministers, you know, battling various visions, various projects. President Putin kind of like saying yeah like whatever. And then, you know, it's like, you know, it's like kind of driven by career, by ambitions, by grant seeking, by sort of individual administrative entrepreneurs. ^M00:55:39 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:55:40 But I mean, I think there is some -- that's how. ^M00:55:46 [ Inaudible Comment ] ^M00:55:58 Well actually I'm trying to make an argument that states actually from the [inaudible]. That's what I've been trying to say again yeah. Well, I mean yeah it's much kind of -- much less kind of top down, much less kind of directed from the very top, much more sort of, you know, growing up from below, from you know, okay maybe not from below, but from the middle [inaudible] kind of yeah. >> That's interesting. >> Grant Harris: Listen, we'll have to stop there. Thank you all for coming. Professor Fedyukin, really thank you that was really. >> Igor Fedyukin: Thank you. >> This has been a presenting of the Library of Congress. Visit us at LOC.gov. ^E00:56:41