^B00:00:12 >> Eve Ferguson: Welcome to Conversations with African Poets and Writers, from the African Section, African Middle Eastern Division, of the Library of Congress. Today we're going to talk with Kadija George Sesay. Her writer's name is Kadija Sesay and we here at the library know her as Kadija George. Let me give you a light background about Kadija Sesay. Kadija Sesay is a fellow of the Royal Society of Arts in the United Kingdom. She is a literary activist of Sierra Leonean descent. In 2001, she founded SABLE LitMag magazine which was published for 15 years and for internationally renowned writes featured on the covers, including Nawal El Saadawi, Sonia Sanchez, [inaudible], and Walter Mosely. Kadija has edited several important anthologies by writers of African and Asian descent, including; Burning Words, Flaming Images in 1996, IC3: The Penguin Book of New Black Writing in Britain in 2000. She co-edited with Courttia Newland, and Write Black, Write British, in 2005. She's also the manager of Inscribe Publications for Inscribe, a writer development program housed by Peepal Tree Press, and will be editing a collection of short stories set in Africa for Comma Press. In spring 2013, Peepal Tree Press published her debut poetry collection, Irki, under her writing name, Kadija Sesay. She received a research and development award from Arts Council England for her second forthcoming poetry collection, Modern PanAfricanist's Journey, which includes an educational app on poetry and PanAfricanism. She's judged several writing competitions, including Saga, New Black British Novelist, Young Black Achievers Award, Cambridge University Creative Writing, Kasa-Kasa Ghana Nottingham Link, John La Rose Short Story Competition, Non-Fiction competition for the Pan African Literary Forum, Kwani Prize 2013, from Kenya, and the 2014 SI Prize. She was the chair of judges for the 2016 SI Leeds Literary Prize. Kadija graduated from the inaugural class of the Kennedy Center for Performance Arts Management, in 2002. She's created and coordinated several literary events over the years, from the British Museum to local community centers and has received several awards for her work in the creative arts. Kadija created the first Sable Literary Festival in the Gambia in 2007, and is now cofounder of the Mboka Festival for Arts, Culture and Sports in the Gambia. Her motto is; art is the heart of the nation. And it's her long-term objective to nurture this as a PanAfrican ideology that starts in the Gambia. She's currently AHRC/TECHNE Scholarship student researching black, British publishers and PanAfricanism at Brighton University and is a 2019 Kluge fellow here at the Library of Congress. So let me welcome Kadija Sesay, who will read from her poetry collection. >> Kadija Sesay: Thank you. I would like to read you a selection of poems from my collection called, Irki, which means homeland in the Nubian language, which is a language that is dying out and like on the cover, I have the father of the Nubian culture and as superstitions go, he wouldn't let me take a picture of him with his face so I had to wait and stand behind, wait until he walked forward and then snap a photo of him from behind, because that really was, for me, the essence, one of the essences of the book. So it's split into four sections; Letting Go, Rituals, This is an African House, and Homeland. It's a migration story of my parents, migrating from Sierra Leone to England, growing up in England, and also includes this slightly strange phenomenon that would happen in England, especially with African parents, of private fostering. So, I relate some of the stories to deal with private fostering. ^M00:05:01 So there may be some mention in my poems of Mom and Dad, and real Mom and Dad. Because I had two of each. Real Mom and Dad, they're obviously my Sierra Leone parents, and then Mom and Dad are my white, working class parents who raised me from when I was a baby until about 7 years old. So it was a very important part of my life and my brother's life and my sister's life. So, I'm going to start the poem with the very first poem which is Ode to [foreign language spoken], migrating parents going to England and migration is a very difficult thing. It takes a lot of consideration and a lot of thought to say, we're going to uproot ourselves and go somewhere else. And my parents left behind their family, and they were going to somewhere new where they had no family so, you know, it's something that people need to think about when they talk about people having to go home when they've really considered uprooting themselves, it's never an easy decision. Ode to [foreign language spoken] and her sisters. I saw three ships come sailing in [foreign language spoken], vessels built for Liverpool, a fleet of [inaudible] to ships, signatures of West African trips. Passenger [inaudible] packed with dreams began to unravel, slowly in reams. Hopes filtered through fingers like sand, blown away with memories of homeland. Minds change with the English weather but return tickets were never an option. Headlines, walks, here to stay, maybe they would return home one day. So the next two poems, Letting Go 1, Letting Go 2, one of them is representing my maternal grandmother, who is Muslim, and then my paternal grandmother, who's Christian. Letting Go 1; this man is the one you say will take care of you, feed you, clothe you, shelter you, respect you. Will not damage you and be a good father to your children [inaudible]. Okay, then, if you say so, I will let you go. Letting Go 2; he's on the plane going, I can't stop him. Let him go. Maybe he will be better off, maybe make some money, send me some pounds sterling. But I don't know, you know, about this girl he is marrying from up country, she's not Methodist, her family not even Christian, but she did go to missionary school. How does he know her? I tried hard to meet the family, I know nothing of her history. Why does my son want to marry her? She's not so pretty, typical [inaudible] face. [inaudible] I know say, he go pray to the same god. Muslim [inaudible] I'm not so sure, then say [inaudible] not the same so-- ^M00:08:16 [ Inaudible ] ^M00:08:22 The next poem I'm going to read is [inaudible] same section is Grandmothers 1. One choose to lie flat on her narrow wooden bed, declared, "I won't be getting up anymore." One tried to lie quietly in her castle through the terror of a civil war. Grandmother church, grandmother mosque, gave up their children to the empire. One to lie flat on a wooden park bench in London's Turnham Green. One to lie on a mattress to yield babies in exchange for love and dreams. The next poem I'm going to read is from the next section, called Rituals. It could have been called tradition but I think rituals is better because I think families adopt rituals as they go through the family and they take on things that then become fixed. So this is with my English working class family and its family rituals. Bart's ritual; three little dark-skinned bodies scrubbed down once a week in shared water, to remove the scum of ignorance. Ironing ritual; sheets, shirts, high on starch and fabric conditioner, towels and hankies folded, but can never get the corners to meet like Mom can. Roast rituals; lamb goes with mint sauce, pork with applesauce, beef with horseradish sauce, bread goes with dripping, and chips go with custard. ^M00:10:12 [ Ambient Noise ] ^M00:10:18 Of the many uses of Vaseline. His head stuck between metal railings, it's splayed broad like handles, neighbor's kids shouted and spat in his face, monkey, as he waited to be rescued. Hands around his waist we tried to yank his torso from behind, pushing his forehead from the front. I'm hungry, he said as I wiped his cheek. Mom, he shouted but which one I wasn't sure. Wasn't there anything we could use that wouldn't damage is brain. Vaseline, real Mom had given Mom a full jar for my dry scalp and crocodile skin legs. We used it all that day on my brother's big ears and big head and to hide the stain of phlegm. ^M00:11:14 [ Ambient Noise ] ^M00:11:18 Vicker's boy; tongue pink and hanging out, Peter picked up the scissors we used in arts and crafts class, stuck with [inaudible] bits of pink and blue sugar paper, cow gum and wallpaper paste, and put them to my head. He could only reach the back so that's where he displayed his artistry; snip, snip, snip, bald. He rolled my deep black crunchy curls around in his hand as if playing with a kitten, tired with a pet. He took the glue and stuck them back. ^M00:12:04 [ Ambient Noise ] ^M00:12:08 The next poem is called, Banister. So this is a reflection back onto the white working class family home. Over the fence, into our house, seeing our banister still brown, still scratched, still sturdy; carrying the memories of battles won using balustrades to hoist up to the landing for the bathroom race. Of battles lost when Maya Angelo was tossed over to the school of that's the last, no more cheek, get out of my house! From an angry working-class mom who fast clicked, knit, purl, knit, purl, knit, purl, into rainbow jumpers, who didn't know, didn't care where Africa was, who just wanted to love us kids. No point in tears because no matter how fast they'd flow, pain is like air; invisible yet loaded with particles you'll never see. ^M00:13:17 [ Ambient Noise ] ^M00:13:19 The next poems I'm going to read from the section three, an African House. And I'm going to read a bit of a nostalgic poem called Adoring Michael. If Michael ever gets to meet me, he'll fall madly in love with me, I know that. Born the same year, same height, same color. See me with my afro too, so we're matched perfect. In time, we'll get married, have four children, two boys, two girls. I love Michael and I know if he could just be allowed to meet me, he will fall in love with me. It's tough loving a star, they have so many girls after them. And some days I think it might just be better to love [inaudible] instead. But when Michael sings Ain't No Sunshine, I know he's singing just for me. I know everything about him; his zodiac sign, Virgo, we're compatible. His favorite colors; red, black, silver, and gold, mine too. His favorite food, Mexican, spicy, and vegetarian, sushi, pizza, chicken, fresh fruit, popcorn, vanilla ice cream with cookie pieces, sunflower seeds, glazed donuts, Frosted Flakes with milk, [inaudible], mine too. Michael and his brother's got their own cartoon show before the Osmond's. I'd get up early Saturday mornings to do my house chores so that my Mom would let me watch it. She just doesn't understand that when he sings Got to be There, it doesn't me [inaudible] and washing windows doesn't mean jack. ^M00:15:06 Michael can dance [inaudible], we feel sorry for the white girls [inaudible] at school because there's no way Donny and his brothers could be as cool as the Jackson Five. His eyes look into mine from the poster on my bedroom wall, where I can dream about him at home and at school where his cut out pictures from Jackie Magazine are stuck on my math and English exercise books. From where he shines like the star that he always will be. I just think I know too many people who were in love with Michael at the same time as me. Named for her. Sheer, black, laddered, woven tight into cornrows, ear to ear, forehead to nape, sectioned like a hot cross bun, parted to show a carameled brown surface where the sun works with hair grease to moisten the curly edges that shape her forehead, brightening her face from matte to slightly shiny. That's my Mom's face you have there. I grinned and silently thanked Granny for being beautiful. ^M00:16:26 [ Ambient Noise ] ^M00:16:29 Rice; rice is such a staple food Sierra Leone, breakfast, dinner and tea. So I had to write a poem about rice. The first time I went back home, I returned with country rice; small grains that sifted like tiny diamonds, coarse and flecked with variant browns like gravel. Not like that old brand that sheds milky white starch into water. Long grained, fluffy and soft that we eat on Sunday afternoons. But Mom said, I don't cook that unpolished rice anymore. And she threw it away, a bit like her language. Pink Shoes; pink shoes, first ones, wedge heel, silver buttons at 40, not 4 years old. My foot steps in easy like Cinderella's, except there were no fairy tale princesses black like me and my storybooks. Like there were no pink shoes when I was 4. Red dress, first one, polka dot, sleeveless, at 4 months, not 4 years old. My there walked 14 miles to work for 4 weeks in 1962; his first snow, because he spent his tuppance bus money on a red dress for his pretty devil woman. Now I'm 40 and I will wear pink shoes, pink lipstick, pink nails with stars, and a red dress too. So the last section is called, Homeland. So it's kind of bringing back round a little bit to the leaving the homeland. And I'm going to read again, so I have some grandmother's poems in here, so I'll read one of them. Small as my hand, her face holds gray and pepper lies, lips small, round and round like a lychee seed. Wrapped in blanket, earmuffs, legs warmers, knitted hat, crumply trousers with sewn in pleats. Brownie beige from Marks and Spencer, like her daughter wore. She talked much, but we didn't understand [inaudible] and her chatter was a cry to go home. She spoke little, wanting only to chew her [inaudible] and her stick to keep her teeth strong. Wrapped in overripe mangoes-- ^M00:19:01 [ Inaudible ] ^M00:19:04 Rich red brown, rich red brown palm oil but colors the meeting of teeth. The scent of a well-worn but difficult life. Narrow as my hand, her face holds eyes that dart, switch side to side, day and night, like the geckos that scratch her roof. ^M00:19:28 [ Ambient Noise ] ^M00:19:32 The Penultimate, no, I'm going to read one before the Penultimate, the Found. This is a poem called, Found. On a bed of domestic garbage; cans, bottles, rags, ring [inaudible], bottle tops, rotten fish heads, serrated [inaudible], jacket [inaudible] tops, flips without their flops, mulched thick into a mattress through months of rain and months of sun, that soaked then baked her clothes to her body, denying her the ritual of burial within 24 hours. This was how my grandmother was found. ^M00:20:14 [ Ambient Noise ] ^M00:20:18 This poem called No Plans to Return. They came with photos, he said, of an England we had never seen, sun in Hide Park. they told us they would help with a place to live, a job, if I went, I could look after my Mom and sister [inaudible] who never married. Now our children here are trapped; no jobs, no homes, no way out. We are old now, going soon. We thought we had built a foundation for them during Thatcher's rule. But they're not benefiting, told to go back home, just as we were over 50 years ago, just as we were. You lied to my Papa, she said, you told him everything will be fine. We would have a dry place to live, a kitchen for me to cook and a bed to sleep in. And true enough you provided all of those, but you didn't supply love. This country is lonely when you not get [inaudible]. Me, I'm ready to return home, where things are not perfect but where it is warm, people are friendly, and my skin is not a sin. We don't talk about these times, he said, they've passed. We came to better our lives, better ourselves, take care of family back home, the never ending family that swells with each monthly check. This has become a tiresome life, nothing is moving, no one is progressing so I've decided that when I'm ready, what I'm going to do is to say to my wife, I don't want to live anymore. We will lie on our bed, hold hands, and drift away. My one wish is that we go together, I brought her here and she should leave with me. Maybe it's time to let go. We have no plans to return. No plans to return home, we are old now and used to this way of life. My eyes are failing me, I can still see fine but if it gets worse, I don't trust their [inaudible] medicine. If my wife gets sick, where do I get help to take her to hospital? If her other hip goes, I can't lift her alone. Maybe when they get electric we'll reconsider. When I left everything ran perfectly. Now, neither gas nor petrol, no clean water, no rice, I hear [inaudible], it's as if colonialism was our savior, political independence [inaudible]. Economic independence, Satan. Were Africans not the first people on this earth, yet look at us now. We live as though we'll be the first to go. Have we no pride left? We gave the British PM our highest honor, Paramount Chief, but his embarrassment, our shame. He refused our [inaudible] and the world saw it all, we have not moved on, we've thrown ourselves back into captivity, never left mental slavery. We've no plans to return. ^M00:23:42 [ Ambient Noise ] ^M00:23:44 I'm going to finish on just a slightly more positive note. And this poem is called, Temporary Home. In England you can always tell where black folks lived. Houses painted baby pink, sky blue, marigold yellow, colorful, welcoming, smiling, brightening their spirits. Warming their chilled bones, the only way to get through the winter of '62. These are their homes, until they can return to their homeland. In Egypt, we approached Elephantine Isle by boat. Houses of mint green, strawberry ice cream, daffodil yellow, embossed with alligators and the yellow flowers of friendship. They sit and settled in hills and along the shore cut off before the dam. These are their homes until they can return to their homeland. And these are my people from the same continent from the same breath. >> Eve Ferguson: Thank you very much, Kadija, those poems were beautiful. >> Kadija Sesay: Thank you. >> Eve Ferguson: And they seemed so very personal and we can talk a little bit about that later. ^M00:25:01 But the first question I want to ask you is, when did you start writing and what were some of your earliest ventures, and when did you realize you wanted to be an author? >> Kadija Sesay: I think I first started writing for me as I thought it was seriously maybe when I was about 12 years old. And I was in secondary school and, you know, when they say that a good teacher always makes a difference and we had an English teacher who was, she was from America but she was our English teacher, and she was just very, very encouraging, encouraging to us so even though we didn't have creative writing classes, we had English literature and English language, so I suppose English language is the nearest we've got to that. And I just loved even writing summaries, I just really loved. And there was a competition with a national distributor, paper distributor, and book distributor you know, calling for young children, children to write poems, I think it was something like 12-16 years old, and I submitted my first poem, I didn't get anywhere with it but I was just, you know, I was just kind of glad I did it and I was just carrying on from there. Yeah. >> Eva Ferguson: Okay, what or who are some of the major influences on your work? >> Kadija Sesay: I would definitely say [foreign name] because he has just so, I'm, because I'm one of those children who their families migrated and those times at end of '50s, beginning of the '60s and the [inaudible] was like we need to make sure our children whenever they're in England, they get the best of the best and so they wouldn't allow us to speak African languages. Now they realize that that was not a good idea and so I love it when [foreign name] and as he calls himself, a language warrior, encourages people to do things in their mother tongue and things like that and that has become increasingly important for me and it's something I increasingly encourage people to do, and especially when I'm working with writers and they are multi-lingual, I encourage them even to mix the languages even in one poem. That to me is really, really important. Another thing that's important are just women of color writers, because when we were growing up, we didn't even realize that there were any. So writers like [foreign name], a Nigerian writer who then she moved to England with her husband and she had five children and you know, she had five children by the time she was like 22, and then all of a sudden at the same time she was looking after them herself and you know, she ended up writing about 20 books and then of course from there, we moved on to them finding out about African American writers like the great Toni Morrison, who unfortunately we've just lost, and Alice Walker, but with so many and then writers like [foreign name], so you kind of know the writers are like by the ones who are on the covers of Sable LitMag, because it's like that writer is amazing and these are all writers who are also activists. They didn't just write, they weren't the kind of writers who would be writing in an attic and felt that they were apart from everybody else. They fully involved themselves in the community and in whatever they felt was really important in the world so that is the way that they kind of shared their writing as well. And that was important to me, so I think in some ways it's a good way to know who had good influences on me and who I felt were not just important for me, but who I felt that other writers needed to look at to see this is what it means to be an important, effective, efficient, and giving writer. >> Eva Ferguson: Wow, it's amazing that you talk about Buchi Emecheta, because she was the first African writer that I read. My sister gave me the Joys of Motherhood when I was a teen and I went on to read the Bride Price, and so many other books by her and that she was my entree to African literature, so it's good to know that she was widely loved even though not as well-known as maybe [inaudible] is now, but very important to the foundations of African, women writers. >> Kadija Sesay: Exactly, and they all admit that she was a role model for them. They have all said that publicly, and for me as well. And I think I was fortunate, I think I was the last person who did an interview with here and took photos with her and I couldn't find these photos and when I found them, there's me sitting at her feet, literally sitting at her feet, interviewing her. So I'm really pleased and really proud that I was able to do that. >> Eva Ferguson: And she passed away about 3 years ago. >> Kadija Sesay: That's correct, yes, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was her 75th birthday just on July the 21st, and she had been as a Google Doodle of her. ^M00:30:05 >> Eva Ferguson: Oh, nice. So, let me go, some of the questions may sound kind of redundant because you're going into some of my further questions, but you know, we'll move on. Why did you choose to write poetry as your creative outlet? >> Kadija Sesay: I do write fiction as well. >> Eva Ferguson: Okay. >> Kadija Sesay: And I write them, I actually thought I was a stronger fiction writer. In some ways I still do think I'm a stronger fiction writer. But when I looked at my work, and what I was going to be publishing, oh actually, I've got more poems than I realized and they stretched over some time. So I do write, I really enjoy writing short stories and poetry. I don't think I'm a novelist. >> Eva Ferguson: Okay. >> Kadija Sesay: I think a novelist takes a certain amount of concentration that I probably don't have. Because I'm working with a lot of writers and I really enjoy working with writers I know and I probably wouldn't have even have published these collections of poetry but I was getting to a certain age and I thought, if I don't publish a book of poems soon, I'm going to burst. But I was also thinking really strangely, and you kind of do when you're an activist, you're always thinking of the other writers first and I was thinking but shouldn't I be spending my time working with other writers and helping them to get published. And then when I did publish my book, it really did motivate those who I was working with and for some strange reason, I didn't think it was going to do that. So, you know, I satisfied myself and I, you know, hopefully I satisfied the people I was working with, because that you know, kind of meant a lot to me that I was encouraging them by achieving myself. >> Eva Ferguson: Okay, and then I just kind of have to frame this question, because I thought it was so amusing and I'm sure you remember back a few months ago when you first started as a Kluge fellow at the Library of Congress, and we were both attending the conference at Georgetown. >> Kadija Sesay: Yes. >> Eva Ferguson: And I said to [inaudible]'s son, Macoma [phonetic], hey I have some good news. And he says, yes you do, Kadija Sesay is in the Library of Congress and I said, what? I said but this is Kadija George and he said no, that's Kadija Sesay. That was the first time I made the connection because your reputation had preceded you as Macoma [phonetic] and I believe some of the other writers we've had during this series, said ah, you should get Kadija Sesay. And so it was an eye opener, I said wait, she's right here. >> Kadija Sesay: Next to you, by that time I think I was standing next to you. >> Eva Ferguson: Yes, I think you were too. The news I was going to tell him of course was that we got your father! But I was like, wow, okay, so here's Kadija Sesay, sliding under the radar as Kadija George. So I was really happy to find out that you were right downstairs from us. So how has your research at the Kluge Center bridged your work as a poet with your doctoral studies? >> Kadija Sesay: Before I answer that question, I'm just going to go back to what we were discussing about the names, because some people want to know why I changed it. Now as I explained, my dad from the Christian side of the family, my mom is Muslim, and so as I was growing and being a writer and doing more broadcasts, so I would say Kadija George like that and then I'd go, Kadija Sesay, and I thought no Kadija Sesay sounds better. So I had a discussion with my dad, and my father is a businessman so I kind of said, well Dad, you know something, if I change my name to Kadija Sesay, I said it sounds so much better and that's a really, it sounds so much more of an African name, I said I'm sure I'll make more money. He says okay, then I think you should change it. He fell for it, so I wanted my name to be, I wanted it to be a completely African name and so that's why I took my mother's maiden name of Sesay actually, that's where that came from. So I'm sure I confuse them in the Kluge Center as well, because you've been calling me Kadija Sesay, they know me as Kadija George, but it's been a really great time for me, the researching my PhD around publishing and PanAfricanism, bringing those two things together and of course as it kind of went with me publishing my magazine. But really, I wanted to kind of get behind it and historicize it because my thing really is it is important to have black publishers. It's essential to have black publishers and so but there is some, it needed to be historicized I think. I needed to put the question right there of the importance of having black publishers, so that's what I've been doing but also doing, not so much comparative work with African American publishers, but making this link, making this a, you know, a PanAfrican umbilical cord as the historian John Henry Clark would say, between African American publishers, Caribbean, [inaudible] Caribbean Underground, Frank [inaudible] Publishers, and Black British Publishers. >> Eva Ferguson: Okay, and I'm sure people may be able to tell from this interview, we've spoken before, a lot. And have experienced some things which really bring all of those elements together, including just yesterday seeing a movie about [inaudible] and the tie in between Africa, the Caribbean, European Africans living in Europe, and it's very final that, that history be exposed in order for us to understand where we're going forward. >> Kadija Sesay: Well that's it, well what really excited me when I got here, I thought I was actually going to be doing a lot of my research around because the chapters I have in my thesis cover independence and apartheid [inaudible] so of course when I got here, and one of the previous fellows said oh, you need to go to the Africa Middle East, [inaudible] because you're going to find so much great stuff on Africa. And I wasn't actually, that wasn't actually my intention initially. I thought my focus was going to be looking for the links on anti-apartheid because I knew there were a lot between African Americans and with South Africa. And in fact, most of my, the research the really, really great stuff, has been around the independence issues and that whole, again, that whole language and the way the language was changing from the time of colonialism to post-colonialism, and then the way that the new governments had to grapple with that. So then of course, how that comes out in education and in writing and with the publishing, and then low and behold the links with Walter Rodney, my third chapter was on around publishing the books of Walter Rodney, again, that link with [inaudible]. Again, I didn't realize at the time that one of his most famous books, How Europe Underdeveloped Africa, was published by Howard University Press. >> Eva Ferguson: Wow. >> Kadija Sesay: And then I knew the librarian who was there before so I kind of put two and two together, oh my gosh, if [inaudible] Miller was actually the librarian there, and then Walter Rodney was there, he must have known him. And I just picked up the phone, [inaudible] do you want to talk about Walter Rodney? Sure, when? And it just all came together for me, totally amazing. And then there's been this great film called Hero, again which was linking PanAfricanism and the Caribbean, and then I was meeting people who knew people from that era that all, again, ties in with my research so I'd say to myself, I'm only going to go out whilst I'm here if it's got something to do with my research. So here [inaudible] I'm going to the movies. There were all these great films and then I've got something with now, you know, talking about our history much more in a documentary fashion but also in both feature and documentary and that's all feeding really, really, well into my, into my research so I've still got loads of books to go through and but as well I've also been able to document the different covers also, the covers themselves tell stories. So I've been able to get from the Library of Congress, some of the books, the covers from all of the different editions so I can have them there and tell that story as well because then you have the links between the publishers from the different countries, like Drummond Speer that were based in Washington DC, but then starting up in Tanzania, and Walter Rodney also was then teaching in Tanzania so all of these links, it was just amazing. So I'm not really ready to go yet. >> Eva Ferguson: Well, we're not ready for you to go. But speaking of links, I am a double Howard grad, Howard grad and undergrad, Ethelbert Miller was my librarian, I would not have graduated without him and when you talked about sitting at the feet of [inaudible], I used to sit at the feet of Sterling Brown in Founders Library and listen to him read poetry to me. So all of these connections, it's so great to have somebody who's actually drawing the lines between the dots as there're dots all over the world. >> Kadija Sesay: There are. >> Eva Ferguson: All over the African Diaspora, and we need researchers really, to draw the lines. >> Kadija Sesay: They're there and people have been so great. I've just sometimes I just [inaudible] people, I really need to interview you, like this week. You know, people have been really gracious about that because I thought I'd done, finished all my interviews but then like you said, we're just finding all these other connections so, and I don't want to let them go, we can't let it go, it's our history. So even if it's not even going to feature in my thesis, I want to have that recorded so that it is there for posterity so that we've caught voices. And when I was interviewing people, they were all saying, but nobody has actually asked me these questions before because I really wanted to get behind the publishing, why publish? People are not always asking about the history of our black publishers, they're documenting our history, but they also got a very important history that we need to know about. ^M00:40:21 That seems to be skipped over. So that's why it was really important for me to find out and speak to the publishers and just trace how important they have been in you know, in black history. >> Eva Ferguson: Because if you're a writer, that's fine but if nobody publishes you-- >> Kadija Sesay: That's right. >> Eva Ferguson: -- What are you doing? >> Kadija Sesay: And they often publish our stories without any kind of negotiation. You know, I speak to too many writers, I work with writers that will, you know, send their, they might be sending off their work to a mainstream publisher that has a big name, but if the editor comes back and says you need to change those names because our readers won't be able to pronounce them, we do get that. Or you need to change that situation, you know, Muslims marrying Christians? No. That doesn't work. We think you need to change that. You know, and things like that do happen to black writers when they send their work off. When you're sending it to a black publisher, all they will maybe want you to do is investigate it more and give the richer background rather than telling you-- >> Eva Ferguson: That doesn't exist. Perfect. Okay, so, I know noticed in one of your poems you were reading in Creole. Is that? >> Kadija Sesay: That's right. >> Eva Ferguson: One of the major issues in African literature continues to be writing in the mother tongue or indigenous languages of African ethnicities. Can you comment on how that impacts writers coming out of Africa today? And those in the diaspora as well. I remember that this series really started as a result of having Chinua Achebe here for the 50th anniversary of "Things Fall Apart." >> Kadija Sesay: I came to that! >> Eva Ferguson: That's funny. So we have met before, then. And he was putting Igbo words into "Things Fall Apart" which I believe he said it first, they said oh, nobody can relate to that, but of course, history speaks for itself. So can you tell me a little bit about writing in those African languages and what is your perspective of writing in African languages and how do writers coming out of the diaspora then incorporate that into their work? >> Kadija Sesay: It's a real challenge for writers coming out of the diaspora. Since I'm one of those writers who have those challenges. So like for example, I do have bits of Creole in some of my poems, and one of the poems I have between the grandmothers, I have it, one version in English and one in Creole. And I made sure I put the Creole first. I'm just going to make sure you put the African language first so you're starting again, I'm a student of [inaudible], I'm reading all of his books now. Again, you put the African language first. And then you put the other languages afterwards. Because then you build on your strength. As you build on your strength and you become stronger, if you develop in your own, in your own mother tongue first. Because it's like how can you build a strength on somebody else's language, you can't, you know? You have to start from there. So I encourage, I was going to say, I encourage writers who I think have more than one language, I will try and encourage them to say there's nothing wrong with putting more than one language in your work. And in fact, it enriches it. And so when you have to even think that when we're talking about African literature, what are we talking about? Are we talking about African literature in African languages or are we talking about African literature in English? Because that's two different things. That's two different things. But I feel that writers know more, African writers are taking that into consideration. I really do. Some of them may not be because, you know, it will still come back to well, if I want the world to understand me, I have to write in a language that they can all understand. No, they can be translated into English afterwards, you know? I've been involved in a project with Gelata [phonetic] in Kenya in which, and [inaudible] Chongo, he'd a short story in Kikuyu. And then it was translated into different languages. And I remember him saying he's achieved what he wants with this one short story in all the years that he's achieved with all of his other work. And that one short story has now been translated into about 60 African languages. And it's-- a lot of it is online and it's all in, you know, it's all in, it's all spoken in African languages so I was involved with that and we did it in one of in Mandinka for Gambian languages. And we also published a book with four Gambian languages in it. Not in English at all. I don't understand it, of course, but at least it is there so that children can see oh, we have this great African writer and he is writing in my mother tongue. It really makes them realize that their mother tongue is important and that is something to enrich them and something to build upon. And then they don't have to think oh well, I can only read him in English or it's only going to be important if I do it in English first to see that a writer's been doing this. So now what we're doing with the festival in Gambia, every time we have our lead writer come, we are having one of their major works translated into a couple of African languages and they are so amazed and they really enjoy that. So I'm enjoying the fact that we've hit something that's right and it's going to take some work to keep on doing that, but it's really, really important that we keep on doing that. >> Eva Ferguson: Excellent, I remember that the Malian filmmaker and writer Manthia Diawara said that oh boy, I don't know my mother tongue. And so I would assume that it also was encouragement to revive those languages and education. >> Kadija Sesay: Yes, it is. I, you know, like in South Africa they have all of their-- all of the languages there, I think they have 11 official languages so English and-- is not the only official language. And you know, so all of them are. And that's really good. Yes, of course, it makes some things more challenging. But that is really important because you will still have too many, and I don't know them all, but I know at least some of the African countries will say well, the curriculum will only be accepted and the school will only be supported if the curriculum is in English. What is that telling children? It is telling them that their language is second rate. And that's what we need to kind of change around so that their mindset is strengthened in the fact that they are African children with their African languages and we know that from when you're young, if you are multilingual, it's so much easier to learn other languages anyway as you get older. It's easier to learn other languages anyway. So having more than one is great from the outset. >> Eva Ferguson: And of course, we know in Africa most people are multilingual. Out of necessity. >> Kadija Sesay: Exactly. And when we invited [inaudible] for our festival in 2017 and it came at a strange time because the government was just changing, the first one in about 28 years. And people say to us we feel so sorry for you, you've done all of this work and you're going to stop the festival. And we said no we're not. We said it's important. It comes back to our motto, art is the heart of the nation. It's important that the art's carried on. So even if some people leave, we had to stay and show them that it was important to be there. And for somehow or other, he's not a very, you know, he's a very humble person. If we couldn't find him, we'd send people to go and bring our guest in. We lost him. We found him outside talking to these young men. And then they said to us, do you know they speak five languages? And we're like, we've been looking for you. All over the place. And he's just, so, you know, he danced with them at the airport. He can see this and everything. And that kind of thing is really important. Because a lot of these young people, well not just the young people, the older Africans, they had been reading his work at school. It's like he has come to our country, our small country, and yes, and we try and make sure we take our major African writers there every year so that people can see that people want to be in the Gambia and that they are important enough for these major writers to go there. So we've also had [inaudible] Johnson, who's a dub poet, amazing dub poet. So you can imagine. And then after I'd kind of said that oh yes, we're going to translate everything into Gambain languages. I then had to translate Jamaican Patois into African languages. And I was very careful in explaining to the translators, we're not going from Jamaican Patois to English to Wolof. We are going from Jamaican Patois to Wolof. >> Eva Ferguson: Which opens up a whole new world. >> Kadija Sesay: It does. >> Eva Ferguson: Of translation. >> Kadija Sesay: It does, it does. And they did it. And they did it. But also I had a Jamaican-British person there. And so if there were kind of phrases that they didn't get, she would explain what it meant in Wolof. So again, we were going for that Jamaican Patois into Wolof. Yeah. >> Eva Ferguson: And that kind of recalls one of our other writers we had here, Vera Nitojol [phonetic]. >> Kadija Sesay: Yes. >> Eva Ferguson: Who deals with translation a lot. >> Kadija Sesay: She does. >> Eva Ferguson: And said that translation is one of the most difficult aspects of writing. >> Kadija Sesay: Yeah. ^M00:50:17 >> Eva Ferguson: Because you're going from a lot of vernacular, colloquialisms in one language and trying to put it into a language that it never belonged to. So that is a new world I'm quite sure it's going to keep African writers and translators, because they're not necessarily the same thing, very busy in the future. So why don't we talk about the future? What in your opinion is the state of contemporary literature in Africa now? Are writers still trying to write in English or French? Have they fully embraced mother tongue writing? What's going on with contemporary writers now? Because I know that you have your fingers on the pulse? >> Kadija Sesay: Keep trying to keep them on the pulse. Oh, I have my fingers on people as well who have them on the pulse. >> Eva Ferguson: Okay! >> Kadija Sesay: I do both. I think literature, literature in Africa at the moment is so exciting. It really is. Because we've got all these festivals sprouting up. And the festivals will do things in English and it will do things in mother tongue. It will do things in various languages. I think though, I mean there's always been books published in mother tongue languages. But a lot of the times, they've just been for schools and they haven't necessarily had a widespread audience. So from what I'm getting the feeling of is that, you know, they're more discussions, there are more discussions A, about with African writers who are in the diaspora publishing their work with African publishers. I'm very excited about that. And encouraging them to do that in Africa. A lot of the time, that is in English. But there are also writers and writers who aren't even necessarily African who want their works now translated now into African languages. A very good friend of mine, I'm not allowed to talk about the book yet. He has signed the contract, but he hasn't got the press release, so he said I can't talk about it. He has never been to Africa. And he said to me, Kadija, you know, my book's going to be coming out 2020. I want it in African. And I'm like okay, which African language? He says you deal with that, but it has to be in at least one African language. And I'm going to give it to you to take care of that. For me, that is really exciting that somebody who is not, you know, who has never traveled yet to Africa, his parents are African American, is willing to look at that, embrace it and realize why it's important that his fantastic work, because his work is absolutely beautiful, is important for young people to see it in their mother tongue. We might just start with one, I'm not sure how many we can get to. But it's a beginning and it's a start and that's the way I think some of writers are thinking and it will be great to see more of them go and moving in that direction. >> Eva Ferguson: Okay, and of course we know that among African Americans, it was probably [inaudible] Torango who really first started trying to introduce Swahili into regular African American life. So of course we have Kwanzaa, nobody knows the meanings of the words except as part of the ritual of Kwanzaa for you to say the Swahili word and then say the meaning in English. >> Kadija Sesay: Yeah. Well it's like Drum and Spear, the publishers here, they went to Tanzania to set up in Tanzania and publish work in Swahili. Not in English. See, so it's, people have been working at it for a long time. It's not a new thing. But there can be some particular difficulties, you know, and these are kind of the issues that we need to try and get around. Maybe Drum and Spear went there as a pan-African publisher, but they're in a Tanzania that is just becoming independent and even though their leader was very much a pan-Africanist, first of all, you've got to deal with the national side as well. So you're trying to incorporate both of them at the same time so I'm sure that was a bit challenging for them. But people aren't giving up. They kept on pushing and they kept trying because they know that's important. >> Eva Ferguson: Okay. And you talked about the upsurge in literary festivals in Africa. Why this increased activity now and then of course, you have your own literary festival that you cofounded, the Mboka festival. So can you talk a little bit about both of those points? >> Kadija Sesay: Yeah. Well there have been, there are a couple of literary festivals that have been going for many, many years in South Africa. One of them is a poetry festival, just regular poetry, I think it's called, I can't actually remember what that one is called. But there's also one called Time of the Writer. And you know, we all wanted to go into those festivals because it's a festival in Africa, we want to be there, you know. And so those festivals have been going on for many, many years. But I think more recently, it's kind of a building of elements. You have more prizes. Number one. Both locally and internationally. You'll have more prizes. More writers in the diaspora will be taking their work and because as well they know best they as well have to market it. And then you will look for me, I would look at poetry festivals like Calabash in Jamaica, which is run by Kwame Dawes and it was like this fantastic weekend of all things literary in this wonderful place in Jamaica. And it, this is like making, and sometimes you will get these faces like poetry is the next big rock and roll. Poetry has always been rock and roll. Poetry's always been rock and roll. But sometimes it has a little upsurge. And I think the way that Calabash made this festival just so much fun, and people thinking literature, having fun, a bit like it would be a jazz festival. Yes. So sometimes there'll be music within the festival as well but not all the time. But it's almost like okay, wherever there is word and however that word is represented, can be part of a literature festival. So it's quite natural then as well that if music and drama all isn't part of a festival as part of a literature festival. So it's taking the narrowness [inaudible] literature is, because you know, of course a lot of the times when people are in school, they're taught that literature is Shakespeare and that's it. You know, and so now we're saying, we've gone way past that. We've gone way past that. And look at the different and innovative ways we are producing literature. And of course, in a lot of African countries, when you're putting on drama, and a lot of times to say what you wanted to say in a challenging way and to say what you wanted to say to challenge maybe, without putting it on paper, to challenge what is going on with the governments, for example, you'd put on a play. You know? And so a lot of the work, a lot of the literary work has come on stage as well. So we shouldn't forget that. And a lot of these writers are playwrights first. They were playwrights first. Because that is how they could get their word out. Because they didn't have the publishers at the time. So it's on stage, in newspapers, a lot of those newspapers publish poetry as well. If it was short, it could fit inside a newspaper. So for all of these things that are all coming together, all merging to one. And I think people found that this was all possible, technology as well has definitely helped. In different ways. And so you know, someday you'll be having part of the festival even online. And they're so adept using smartphones in Africa. Much more adept than they are in other places. >> Eva Ferguson: Well in Kenya no money exists practically. >> Kadija Sesay: So you have to have your phone there to do not just the communication but for your everyday, so they're much more adept. So all of those things have helped I think with the literary festival. And it's going to continue to help it build. This is something that's really-- it's a really exciting time to be in Africa at the moment. Arts and culture wise. >> Eva Ferguson: And I think we really have to reference at this point somebody we never got a chance to get on camera before he made his transition, [inaudible]. >> Kadija Sesay: Yes. >> Eva Ferguson: Yes. And can you talk a little bit about him as far as literary festivals? >> Kadija Sesay: Yeah well the first time-- when was the first time? Oh, [inaudible] was just, he was just-- he was just so big on the scene. And he moved so many of us to get things done. He was incredible. So, I went to Kenya. He invited me to Kenya and some other writers who we felt would move us in shakers, including [inaudible]. And some other writers. Because we wanted to kind of get together a network of literary magazines. Because sometimes that's how you get first publishers [inaudible] magazine. That whole project never necessarily came off but we all met together and he really, really did something with Kwame. I think Kwame as well, it really was a kernel to pick up some of these, the literary scene as well. And so when I did my first festival in 2007, I invited [inaudible] to come. Because they were also having the first PEN conference in [inaudible], the first one that they'd had in Africa for 40 years. So we just made a big thing of it. We were going to PEN, I was going to have my festival, I had a writer's retreat in the Gambia. In an absolutely beautiful space. I was having a festival. And so I was having people come from [inaudible] to the festival and somewhere in the middle of that I started in getting married as well. [inaudible] festival, it was just an exciting time. ^M01:00:13 And so [inaudible] was there. And encouraging people. And we had a-- I published a book with Helon [inaudible]. So Helon [inaudible] on Dreams, Miracles, and Jazz. New Adventures in African Fiction. [inaudible] was in that. A lot of the people who ever came [inaudible] were in there, all of the writers who were in there, hadn't published a novel yet. Most of them now. Which was really excited. And we actually met, Helon and I, to talk about this book. At TGI Friday's in Washington DC. We literally sat down and planned the book, you know, and sometimes with writers, you, and we were at the time then where we knew we were in a space where we could help get African writers published because Helon had kind of made a name for himself. I was at the Kennedy Center at that time, yes this is it, we're going to do this. And everything. But [inaudible] has always been there at the center and at the time, people didn't know he was gay, he was such a gay activist. And so even at one stage and I said well, [inaudible], I want to do, I'm thinking of doing the next festival. I would really love you to come. And especially because I know that you should really support a lot of young people. And he said, oh just invite me, I'm coming. Don't worry about it. And I'm going to be there. And I really appreciated him for saying that I'm being there. We never got him there that next time, but he was there the first time. When we first did that festival. So having people like [inaudible], which [inaudible] because that's when she was at that time Doreen, [inaudible], she used to live in DC, but I think she's now gone back home to Uganda, came to festival. And it was great, yeah. So I was really excited. And we really miss [inaudible]. >> Eva Ferguson: So tell me about your next festival. >> Kadija Sesay: Wow, our next festival is going to be in 2021. Because we're going to have a pan-African conference in May 2020. So we're going to do the festival in 2021 in January. And what is so nice about it is I don't have a lot of money to do the festival and I'm really trying to break away from always having it funded. Because funding is not always going to be there. And how do we build that? So I wait until people get excited when I tell them about the festival. One of the things I learned from the Kennedy Center from Michael Kaiser, who was there at the time was passion. Passion about the art is what sells it. So I'm passionate about the festival. And I keep talking about how passionate I am about the festival. And then [inaudible] saying so when are you going to invite me? So they invite themselves. I say we'd love to have you, but you know we've got no money but we'd love to have-- oh, don't worry. Just get me there. And they just want to get there. So I know Helon Habila is coming. [Inaudible] is coming. And so many writers like, I just want to be there you know. Which is great. And that helps them to get there. It helps me to have the net. And so that it really helps the writers in Gambia where a lot of people sometimes think there's no literature in Gambia. But there is. It helps them to realize that their work is important and that people are, other writers are recognizing them and once those writers are there, it helps enrich the writers and it helps enrich the literature. And it would help them to have that transition into a larger international platform. One of Gambia's most well-known writers is in DC, Dr. Tijan Sallah. He's a poet. And he's a short story writer. We want more Dr. Tijan Salah. We want a lot more. Not only male [inaudible] but young woman writers as well. So I'm really there encouraging there's a few young writers there who are really doing well. And we have to kind of recognize because there are no publishers of such, in the end they self-publish. And so you have to think if somebody, and especially young person, is going to make a decision with the very little money that they have, or the very little money that they have to borrow, to publish a book before feeding themselves with food, that tells you how important literature is to them. And it's no joke and it's a serious thing. So they need to be taken seriously and supported. >> Eva Ferguson: I'm glad you mentioned Tijan Sallah. He was I believe the third or the fourth writer in this series, which is now some 30, I think you might be number 33? >> Kadija Sesay: Alright, oh, kind of like my age. >> Eva Ferguson: Which is a great number. But also talking about numbers, we've come to my last question. Which is number 11. How do you see the future for African and African diaspora writers and what steps need to be taken to broaden the readership of African literature to the international community? And I want to just expand on that and just say and to Africa? How do these writers need to really develop that African readership? Because I think a lot of African writers now have international readership, we know that-- >> Kadija Sesay: Oh, absolutely. >> Eva Ferguson: --so, as you mentioned, [inaudible] works being translated, Chinua Achebe, so many African writers have been translated into other languages. Including now African languages. But who's the real target audience for African writers? Should it be the international community? Or should it be the African community first? >> Kadija Sesay: International. And putting African writers right there in the middle of that international. And I mean, as I said, I mean I'm encouraged by the fact that a lot of the African writers I know now, they all publish with an African publisher on the continent. That's important to support the publishing industry. But it's important as well, not only for the people to see in Africa that the work of their established writers is coming in with an African publisher, that's really important. It's, it's a little bit more work, I'm saying it's a little bit more work, it's probably a lot more work. But it should only be a little bit more work, to then, to start looking at translating some of those works into African languages. Because now we do have, I know there is like a team in the Gambia, even though I'm Sierra Leonean, I spent a lot of time, you can tell, in the Gambia. And there is a team now of translators who are working on different projects. And when I first met them, it was kind of like well okay, we're doing all of this work for you for bringing this. And they almost felt it was like almost like a job. And when I actually went to have a meeting, because sometimes, you know, technology is not great for everything. And sometimes you have to have a face-to-face. I said brother, please, let's sit down and talk and let me tell you what the objective is. And when I finished talking to him he said, we're doing the same work. It's for the same boat. What we want is all of this work here so that it can be and there are around seven languages, seven main languages anyway in Gambia, so at least, if we can get the main four, most people, nearly everybody will speak at least one of those four languages. He says we're doing the same work. He said whatever small, small cache you have, just give to us. At the end of the day, we have to get this work translated. We have to get it in the hands of the children, and it has to be in their hands in their own languages. So there's still a lot, there's a long way to go. And there's a lot of work to do but I believe it will get done. And I think sometimes people look at what professor [inaudible] says and thinks, is he dreaming? You know, how can this all be achieved? But that's the start. That's the start. If we're not going to dream to achieve, then we're not going to get anywhere. We can't keep saying that it has to be in English or it has to be in French. Yes, it's great for it to be in those languages, too. But even if it's in select African languages, that is somewhere. Because as we said, people speak more than one African languages. And these languages are grouped into language types. So for one of the, we're kind of doing a showcase of Mboka festival in the UK in August. And we were able to get with the Igbo conference, link it together with the Igbo conference. And we said okay, there must be a link with Igbo and a Gambian language, let's find it. And we'll do a workshop of that. And that's what we're doing. You know, so these are all the things you have to be innovative and try. So nobody's saying it's easy, but I think that we must try. >> Eva Ferguson: And as a Liberian friend of mine, who was a culinary griot, she says we have to palaver. >> Kadija Sesay: Yes. >> Eva Ferguson: We have to palaver. >> Kadija Sesay: We have to palaver. >> Eva Ferguson: And so on that note, I want to thank you so much for being a part of Conversations with African Poets and Writers. And we wish you all the luck in your future endeavors. And we'll be looking to you as a name in the African literature field who will be moving it forward. So thank you so much, Kadija Sesay. >> Kadija Sesay: Thank you. >> Eva Ferguson: Sometimes known as Kadija George. I didn't introduce myself, I'm Eva Ferguson. Reference librarian for now a lot of African countries at the Library of Congress. So thank you so much. >> Kadija Sesay: Thanks, it's been great speaking to you. >> Eva Ferguson: Thank you. >> Kadija Sesay: Thanks. ^E01:10:02