^B00:00:13 >> Hello, my name is Marie Arana and I'm the literary director for the Library of Congress. Welcome to National Book Festival Presents, brought to you by the Library of Congress. Today it's my very great pleasure to introduce a new series with this program. We're calling it Hear You, Hear Me which is a line that's taken from the great African American pet Langston Hughes. Our hope always is to bring you stimulating conversations by authors on timely themes. And there could really not be anything more timely right now than the subject of race in America. So here in time to mark Juneteenth, June 19 of 2020, is this program with Carla Hayden, the Librarian of Congress, the 14th Librarian of Congress, in conversation with two enormously talented writers who have both served as youth ambassadors to the Library. You'll hear from the current national ambassador for young people's literature, Jason Reynolds, the beloved author of many books for the young, among them Ghost, Lu, and Long Way Down. His newest book is a compelling and empowering exploration of racism. It's called Stamped: Anti-Racism and You. Appearing with Jason is his predecessor in the role of our young people's ambassador, Jacqueline Woodson. And she is equally beloved, the author of many, many wonderful books including Harbor Me, and Brown Girl Dreaming. Her latest book is called Red at the Bone, a stirring tale of a daughter, a mother and a family legacy. And now here to welcome you again is Dr. Carla Hayden, Librarian of Congress. ^M00:02:05 ^M00:02:10 >> Thank you, Marie. And I couldn't think of two people who are more relevant and ready to discuss helping young people and the people who care about them during this time than Jackie and Jason. You have been in this field of describing difficult truths, celebrating young people in all of their glory and truth for a long time. ^M00:02:54 ^M00:02:57 And what conversations -- I just want to ask both of you -- have you had recently with either your parents, your children, the people you care about right now? ^M00:03:09 ^M00:03:15 Jackie, you've got some young ones right there. >> I have -- well, one of the most recent conversations I had was with Jackson who is 12 and doing Zoom classes. And as we know, New York City has the highest rate of segregated schools in the country. ^M00:03:32 ^M00:03:34 And they were talking -- he was in a Zoom group, about 13 kids. And he was the only kid of color. And one of the kids said, "You know, I don't know what all the fuss is about. They just killed one black man." And so the teacher obviously didn't know how to talk about this. Jackson was just frustrated and shouldn't have to explain this, right? He's a 12-year-old kid. He should feel safe in his classroom and everywhere. And just beginning -- the fact that people aren't having these conversations about race and about you know, putting it in a historical context. And noting that as Jason talks about in All American Boys and many of his books, you know, it's not just one person. And even if it was, which it isn't, that's one person. You know, that is a human being whose life was taken for no reason at all. And then multiply that by the multitudes of people who this has happened to and the families that have been impacted. The children, the parents who've lost their children. And all the many ways in which this country has, you know, as Kim Jones and Trevor Noah talked about, broken its contract with us and being able to talk about that. So we've been having some long and deep conversations and mainly us trying to help Jackson articulate it, you know, what is frustrations are and what it feels like to be in a brown body in this moment in time. ^M00:05:07 ^M00:05:09 Yeah. >> A brown body in this moment in time. And Jason, you've been working directly with asking, grab a mic, Write, Right, Rite. What are you hearing? Are they able to talk about it? And how do you help them, as well as listen? >> Yeah, I think a little bit of both. I think young people have been able to talk about it if their adults are asking the right questions. I think it's incumbent upon us to figure out how to ask the right questions -- first of all, we need to ask better questions. But we also, I believe, as adults, need to do a better job with actively listening to what's being said and to what's not being said. And so what Write, Right, Rite has sort of become, especially over the last month or so has been an opportunity for young people to creatively express themselves and to sort of nestle in their truths in the midst of metaphor or fun activity. But it doesn't make these truths any less true. On the flip side I will say in terms of the conversation, I've been on the radio where young black children have said to me very straightforward that I am afraid of this. I'm afraid of my skin color. I am now afraid. What does that mean for me? And what do you have to tell me? And I think in those moments -- those are moments where I have to validate that fear, but I also have to remind them sometimes that blackness isn't a burden. Like it isn't a curse. It's a gift. What a marvelous, marvelous thing attached to a tremendous history. But we need not feel small about it. You know, I listen to -- Nikky Finney once told me, the poet Nikky Finney, was talking about why it was such a big deal for black people to write. We talk about black people reading, right? But black people were also killed if they could write. And the reason why is because the powers that be understood how much power was in the writing of a thing. How you could make yourself real, or you could force your identity onto the world if you could write it. And they didn't want that. And so all of my work is about that, right? During this time, write yourself into this conversation. Write yourself into the world, because they cannot deny that which is on the -- write it down and make it plain, right? It can't be denied once it is sort of etched into stone and etched into the psyches of our country. >> And see, I have to hold up. I am a librarian. Brown Girl Dreaming, and making it real. Because when I -- you know, I'm a little bit older. There weren't books like Brown Girl Dreaming. And Jackie, making it -- just to be able to hold it and know just the title. Did you realize -- and you know. You've been intentional. ^M00:08:13 ^M00:08:16 >> Yeah. ^M00:08:17 ^M00:08:19 You know, Brown Girl and others was a party they were invited to and could celebrate and celebrate themselves within the context of -- and that journey has been so interesting in seeing that brown girls who see themselves in that book are Latinx, are Indian. You know, are biracial, are African American, Caribbean American or Asian. And of course, as I said, southeast Asian. And just being able to look at -- it's so surreal to me still that looking into the context of my life from 50 years ago almost, and seeing themselves in the narrative. And to piggyback off of what Jason said, it is so true that when you see -- you know, you must write yourself into the narrative and read yourself into the narrative. In Red at the Bone I say if history is to be remembered, someone has to live to tell the story. And I think that -- >> I have it. Because I'm reading it, yes. ^M00:09:29 ^M00:09:30 >> And I remember [inaudible] and people you know, coming for me saying, "Well, this never happened." You know, using the quotes as part of the Underground Railroad. And they're like, "If it happened, if it truly happened, why didn't anyone write about it?" And you know, forgetting the history of what Jason is saying, that we weren't allowed to read. We weren't allowed to write. And if we were allowed to write, no one's going to tell you this story. You know, it's none of your business if you're not inside of it, because you will give us away and the escape route will be over. And so in thinking about that idea of a country wanting us to not have been smart enough, right? A country wanting us to not have been human enough to know how to escape enslavement, right? A country that wanted us to -- wanted the history of us to be one of people who were illiterate, of people who not only didn't write their stories but didn't have their stories. And us realizing, well, what we have is the oral tradition. What we have is conversation. What we have is transparency, this way of talking to each other. And as Jason says, asking the questions and having the hard conversations. Because historically, we have not had a choice. And so for us coming to young people and having these conversations, this is -- I mean, it's not easy but it's familiar. We know how to do this. We know how to have these conversations and get young people to tell their stories and see themselves inside of narratives. ^M00:11:03 ^M00:11:04 >> I have to talk about All American Boys. ^M00:11:08 ^M00:11:10 We get to the last page, Jason, where you -- the character calls the names. >> Yeah. >> It's one of the most -- it's the last page, or basically. ^M00:11:27 ^M00:11:29 And the names are called. How did you feel about the fact that now this book, people are reaching out to it, even the cover with the hands up and all that. And it was what, 2016, 2015? >> 2016 or 2015. I can't remember. ^M00:11:54 ^M00:11:56 I think it's -- ^M00:11:58 ^M00:11:59 I wish I could tell you that I'm surprised, but the truth of the matter is that book could have been written in 1994. It could have been written in 1964, right? So I think that's the point, right? We're talking about a perennial issue, an issue that is evergreen, unfortunately, because we have yet to address some of the lifeblood of America, which by the way happens to also be the lifeblood of me and my mother and you and Jackie, right? We don't want to talk about it that way, but we need to and we have to. And when I say we, I'm actually generally talking about people who are adults. I actually think that young people do want to talk about it. >> That's true. >> They're just not given the framework or the space to do so. And so when I think about All American Boys, there are a few things that come to mind. Number one, obviously the list of names. But number two, to be quite honest with you, my partner in crime who wrote it with me. White people can't be excluded from the conversation. White children can't be excluded from the conversation, because I believe that in order for these issues to sort of be wrestled with, we have to wrestle with racial identity. It isn't just about black people on the receiving end of the hatred. It's also about understanding the role of privileged and of whiteness in our society. And with All American Boys, it tackles it head on and all the adults were so afraid and, "Oh no, we don't want to talk about this. This is a little heavy. We don't want to be indicting. We don't want to be accusatory." But then we show up to the school and all the kids including white students, young white kids, would be like, "I want to know more about what my role is in these moments. I want to know more about how to be an ally or a friend or a better human in these moments. I want to know more about how to fight my family when I hear them say racist things." So we're running away from something that they're desperately running toward, because we're afraid that they can't handle it. And it's our insecurity that keeps them from moving on. And that's the harsh truth, but I've talked to I think upwards of a million young people over the course of five years with All American Boys running around this country. And 90% of the time, the young people show up ready to talk. ^M00:14:27 ^M00:14:30 >> And Jackie, you gave an example of some of the difficulties of creating a space for them to talk when you were youth ambassador. You went with a group and you said -- I really want people to hear this. >> So I was actually in Alabama at a juvenile detention center for boys. And the population there was predominantly white. ^M00:14:58 ^M00:15:00 And they had a beautiful library, an astute librarian. And we were talking -- I was talking about my body of work. So a lot of the books touched places in them that were hard. I had written I Hadn't Meant to Tell You This, and there was a young boy who was in there for sexual assault. And you know, someone else -- the myriad of issues were vast. And as I was leaving -- and they were engaged and talking, but as I was leaving, most of the white boys, I would say about 90% threw up the white power sign and said, "White power, Ms. Woodson. White power." And for me it was this moment of like, "But I thought we had connected." You know, I thought there was an understanding. And as I walked away, I realized there was an understanding. And their white power was all they had, you know. This was all they had and they wanted to show me what they had. And I understood it, I understood that feeling of deep powerlessness when this is all -- you know, your whiteness is all that you have to hold onto. And it made me sad. It didn't make me like them less. It didn't make them come across as evil or unintelligent. It was like, "I see you. I understand you." I understand that this is not an attack on me. It's asking me to see you and see what I have too. >> Wow. >> But I think that is a thing, when we're thinking about people, it's so easy for us to box people in and say, "This person is evil. That person is this, that person is that." But when you look closely, you see it so much more complicated than that. And it was hard. You know, I wanted to smack them a little bit. But I was also -- yeah. I was like, "Oh, oh, you got me." But I was also like, "Okay, I see you. I understand this." >> The fact that they called you Ms. Woodson. >> Yeah. >> It shows the complication, right, and the nuance of it. White power, Ms. Woodson. >> Exactly. >> And you have to handle it and you have to let them be those adolescents too. They're going through all kinds of things. I certainly can remember it wasn't the best time as you're trying to figure out things and then peer pressure and all of this. And so to try to help -- what are you hearing, both of you, from the young people now in this moment? Because I know they're reaching out to you and asking. ^M00:17:54 ^M00:17:56 >> I mean, I'm hearing -- more than anything I think it depends on the age, right? So young people, it's a wide swathe, right? When we say young people, it just depends. If we're talking to a 17-year-old, they're going to tell you, "I need you to be a lighthouse and not a captain of this boat," right? "I need you to show me the way, but I need you to allow us to man this boat," right? Which by the way, makes me feel wonderful. Right? That doesn't sort of shake my ego at all, right? It says that if we live in a world where young people are still irreverent, then we're living in a world that is growing. That's wonderful, right? And so I'm going to try to play my position and point the direction and stand beside you and not in front of you and let you lead this. And when I see you head down a path that feels counterproductive, I'll tug your coattail. But that's it, right? If you're talking to someone who's 13, they're saying, you know, "Jason, I'm wrestling with the ideas and I'm trying to understand something that feels very big and at the same time feels very absurd in its simplicity." Right? For them it's like, "Racism is silly. What exactly is going on?" But yet it feels so convoluted and I need you to help me sort of parse it out. And then if you're talking to little kids, it's more like, "I'm afraid and I need to figure out how to be less afraid. And can you help me with that?" But the one thing I want to add as I stop talking here, I don't necessarily believe that there's ever a moment where we grow up, right? We're all just kind of growing. My mother is 75. You know, I spoke to her recently on the phone and she was with Dr. King. She's in DC at the March on Washington. She went through all the things that happened in the '60's. She watched her neighborhood burn down in '68 in DC. And talking to my mother and hearing my mother say, "Jason, I've been watching this and I've been thinking about these young people on the front lines and I just wanted to call you, my 36-year-old son, to tell you how proud I am of the young people. No matter what the news is saying, no matter how complicated it can get sometimes in the streets at the protests, I want you to know that your 75-year-old mother is so proud to know that there are young people fighting even for my freedom as a senior. And that I have told all of my friends to be very careful how they speak about these young people to not denigrate or be discouraging, but to choose which narrative they're going to proliferate." And there's something about that as a 75-year-old woman who has lived and lived and lived again, that helps me continue to push forth hope to the young people who are a little bit younger than me, right? Like there's something about it has to be a top-down thing, so all the older people that are watching this, I urge you, be supportive. It's important that they know that you are supportive, even if it's complicated for you. Wrestle in private. In public be supportive of what they're doing in the street. ^M00:21:01 ^M00:21:03 >> Oh my goodness. >> And Jackie, you mentioned the post-traumatic syndrome that goes through generations. >> Yeah. First and foremost, you know, I want Jason's mom to write a book. Because so much out of her mouth is golden. Yeah, I think that we -- not only the PTSD but the backstory, right? And again, echoing Jason, as grownups I realize we can't bring our negative backstories to our young people. And they're different. It's a different time and they're different, and I'm hearing a lot of the same things Jason is hearing. And I think about, you know, looking back at the history of the Civil Rights Movement and people getting beaten, you know, the history of lynching and all that stuff. And how much of that history in so many ways is repeating itself, and using that as a way to talk to young people about it. But also I am hearing the fear of the kids. And also the absolute fight in them, right? They have a lot of integrity. We were watching with our kids Bohemian Rhapsody, the Freddie Mercury story, Queen, and my kids could not for the life of them understand why Freddie Mercury couldn't be out. They're like, "Wait a second, so he's gay but he can't tell anybody? Like why? What kind of stupidness is that?" Even though they're not supposed to say stupid in the house. And then looking at something like Black Lives Matter and how just a short time ago it was considered a terrorist organization, right? So stuff is changing so fast and young people -- I feel like I'm in a Vitamix, right? And all of this stuff is churning and changing and chopping up and becoming something that is going to smooth out into something delicious and powerful and new. ^M00:23:07 ^M00:23:08 And I see young people, when they're at the marches and in these Zoom meetings, and they're like, "Okay, you grownups have messed some stuff up, but we've got this." >> Yeah. >> "We're not messing with you anymore. We're going to do this a different way." Now Jackson -- sorry. >> Oh, Jackson, good. And you get the turbo power. Jackson might need to come on in. He's 12. This is who we need to talk to, because they are digital natives. You know, I am definitely a different generation. You all are more into it, but they are just -- the way that they can communicate, the way that they can organize or share ideas it seems -- have you noticed a difference with how they connect more? Well, it works too. >> Just in terms of organizing, right? They had the student walkout against school segregation. Within a day, thousands of New York City kids were leaving their classroom. You know, the same with climate change. That was a global movement of young people. And then with these rallies, like they're all up on IG and Twitter -- not so much Twitter. But the organization is amazing. I didn't mean to cut you off, Jason. >> No. >> No, that's it right there. Look, I stumbled into Instagram. I don't know if I told you this, Jackie. I stumbled into this Instagram thing and it was Ilhan Omar's daughter. I can't remember her name. But Ilhan Omar's daughter was on -- she's like, what? 19 I think maybe now. >> Yeah. >> And she was on Instagram Live and I sort of like was swiping as one does at my age. I'm like, "Let's see what's happening." And I stumble into this Instagram Live with here and there are thousands -- I'm talking like thousands of teenagers all talking about voting, right? And all I can think about is, where is the news? Where's everyone to see? I mean, thousands. And they're all commenting and she's responding and she's bringing people into the room and they're all talking, having dialogue. And it got to the point that I felt inappropriate for being there, just based on my age. I felt like they were having a secret meeting that I wasn't supposed to be at. And so I left, but it was an incredible thing to see that no one sees, but that's happening more often than we know. They're using technology to organize. Now of course, as someone who is right in the middle of the -- like I was grown before social media became a thing. I was an adult, right? I was an adult before I got a cell phone, so I'm in that weird in between space that has like a grasp of one but also remembers life without it. I had to be responsible and continue to push and challenge them by saying, "Swiping will never be enough. Hashtags will never be enough." Right, we have to say that just to remind them that like social media when used properly changes the world. Social media when used lazily will convince you that half-love is whole love. And you've got to be careful of that, right? That's the tricky part of it. But if you can lean into actively using it, to make actual tangible things, I don't think we've ever seen a technology so powerful. ^M00:26:26 ^M00:26:29 >> And they know how to use it, and that's worth something. So being authors and writers during this time with that power of technology, how does that affect -- does it affect what you write? And Jackie, I'd really like you to talk about that. >> You know, it's funny because I feel like I stay just a little bit behind technology. Because I made the mistake of in my first book putting a record in it, right? They put the record on the record player. Every time I looked at that, I was like, "Oh no. This is dated young." You know, CD players, iPods, any of that, it changed -- eight-track, right? It changed so quickly that I have to kind of brush stroke it and fix it so that it doesn't date the narrative to keep the narrative more timely. Like I can say someone, you know, pulled out their phone. But if I had said, "And flipped it open," people would have been like, "What universe is she from?" So I am kind of conscious of how I put technology on the page. In terms of how I use technology or how young people are using it to engage with me in the literature, that's a whole different thing. I had a Zoom call with ten kids in a literature class today and it was just amazing seeing them in their bedrooms, in their pajamas and you know, in their kitchens. But just still deeply engaged, right? So I love the barrierlessness of technology in that way, that we can look into a room and see someone without having to leave our dining room. ^M00:28:23 ^M00:28:24 Yeah, I feel like that's new. But I think Jason uses it and engages in it in a whole other way that's amazing. >> Yeah, the Grab the Mic. And Jason, I have to mention Stamped as the one now that's another timely book that you didn't maybe -- it was taken from a book for adults. >> Right. >> And put into -- and you as a person who writes more for younger people, you partnered, about racism. >> About the history of it. You know, I've been thinking a lot about the role of the writer. I've been doing a lot of -- you know, this time has afforded us so much time to kind of excavate our thoughts, mine our thoughts. And I've been thinking about what exactly is the role of the writer? What exactly is my role as a writer? And I think -- and I'm starting to believe that perhaps my role is translation, right? How do you translate a big, big idea? And how do you make it this big and then give that to the world? How do you translate something that feels -- something that we all think about as sort of an abstraction, right? Racism feels so ephemeral, even though it has tangible effects on our lives. How do you take that and make it something that is like solid, right? And so I think about Stamped and what I was after, and it was all just translation work. It felt like, how do I take all of this information, the history -- a 600-year history of racism starting in Portugal -- and make it feel like a rap song? How do I make it feel like a YouTube video? How do I make it feel like something that is relevant to their lives as they're living it today, so that they can actually want and desire to engage with the conversation in a topic? And in that engagement, build a lexicon to actually grapple with the concepts at hand. >> Well, you do engage. I have to read this. "Time for a breath break. Everyone inhale. Hold it, exhale and breathe it out. Privilege." And you go on and you speak to them in that. And Jackie, I just want to -- as I said, the two people I've been thinking about quite a bit and know that everyone needs to hear from, I see as we end you've got James Baldwin behind you. And one of the books -- this is really going to date me. 1972, I have an autographed copy of If Beale Street Could Talk. >> Wow, one of my favorites. >> Yes. One of my favorites. I was a young adult librarian at that time and getting into that kind of thing. And so if you had something for teens now to discover, what would add? I would say If Beale Street, that definitely. >> Oh man, that's such a great question. >> Who would you add? Ralph Ellison? ^M00:31:43 ^M00:31:46 >> You know, Ralph Ellison wouldn't be the person for me because I always felt like The Invisible Man wasn't talking to me, because no black man has ever been invisible to me. You know, it was talking to a white audience. I think that I would probably go with early Toni Morrison, The Bluest Eye, or even Sula. Sula might be a little too complicated, but I remember reading The Bluest Eye as a sixth-, seventh-grader. And you know, my experience with that book was that in the end, Pecola Brela got blue eyes and lived happily ever after. Because that's how I knew how to read that story, and so it had a completely different ending which wasn't true but which my young brain could understand. And I love that even a book like Beale Street, over the years, each time you revisit it, you get something new out of it. It's something more and something more. And I feel that way about Toni Morrison's The Bluest Eye. I could pick that up and some revelation every time. ^M00:32:50 ^M00:32:52 >> That's a good time. Jason, do you have one? Because that was your book that you picked up at what? 17? >> 17, yeah. But I mean, I loved Black Boy, Richard Wright. That's what I picked up at 17. But I don't think that's what I would suggest now. I think maybe I would -- I mean, Black Boy and Native Son are for me really brilliant pieces of work. But I think I would probably suggest something like the poetry of Jim Jordan or I would suggest the poetry of Lucille Clifton. >> Lucille Clifton. >> With all the power and brevity, right? Or maybe I would even suggest like -- I don't know. I love Ann Petry. I mean, there are all these writers that I've never talked about. Yeah, like read The Street. You know, I mean, what a brilliant, brilliant story. I mean, here's the thing. There's so many black writers of that time. John A. Williams, right, of that time. I mean, Dumas, right, all these people sort of who are swept under the rug. And so I could do this forever, but those would be some of my picks, I think. >> Well, good. Because we're going to have a reading list as part of the National Book Festival. Because they're reading both of you now. And I think that they would benefit really to know what you would suggest and get them into it and to also get a sense as you know of this is a journey. My 88-year-old mother is watching these things like your mother, Jason, and recalling things and coming back to difficult things and thinking of it. So it's encouraging that young people today have people like you both to give them things to hold onto. Because we need them to keep going. >> Yes, we do. >> So thank you both. Thank you, and we'll get our reading list up there. >> Thank you. >> Thank you, Dr. Hayden. Thanks for being there. So good talking to y'all. ^M00:35:01