. ■ Book _ . I .. ' ' V . • . ' ■ ' ■ LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS HEARINGS " 7 /;• r BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIRS vot t, UNITED STATES SENATE SIXTY-FIFTH CONGRESS THIRD SESSION ON ACQUIRING LAND FOR ESTABLISHMENT OF MOBILIZATION AND TRAINING FIELDS FOR ARTILLERY AND SMALL ARMS WASHINGTON GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE COMMITTEE ON MILITARY AFFAIRS. GEORGE E. CHAMBERLAIN, of Oregon, Chairman. GILBERT M. HITCHCOCK, of Nebraska. DUNCAN U. FLETCHER, of Florida. HENRY L. MYERS, of Montana. CHARLES S. THOMAS, of Colorado. MORRIS SHEPPARD, of Texas. J. C. W. BECKHAM, of Kentucky. WILLIAM F. KIRBY, of Arkansas. JAMES A. REED, of Missouri. KENNETH D. McKELLAR, of Tennessee. HOKE SMITH, of Georgia. Caralyn B. Shelton, Clerk. S. W. McIntosh, Assistant Clerk. 0 FRANCIS E. WARREN, of Wyoming. JOHN W. WEEKS, of Massachusetts. JAMES W. WADSWORTH, Jr., of New York. HOWARD SUTHERLAND, of West Virginia. HARRY S. NEW, of Indiana. JOSEPH S. FRELINGHUYSEN,of New Jersey. HIRAM W. JOHNSON, of California. PHILANDER C. KNOX, of Pennsylvania. 0. of J, m to 1919 CONTENTS. Statement of: Hon. Newton D. Baker, Secretary of War_ Hon. Benedict Crowell, Assistant Secretary of War Mr. Joseph H. Defrees___ Mr. R. L. Stancill_ Col. H E. Eames_ Mr. E. J. Wynn_ Mr. (1. H. Howell_ Col. Townsend Whelen_ Col. K. E. Wyllie_ Mr. Frank Hugh Garrard_ Mr. C. C. Minter__ Mr. Joe S. Bergen_ Mr. W; O. Berry_ Mr. B. S. Miller_ Mr. J. G. Dunham_ Mr. W. C Schley_ Col. Morton C. Mumma_ Lieut. Col. Smith W. Brookhart_ Page. 6 12 43 02 70, 206 85 - 8 1 99, 192 101 . 201 105 109, 181 _ 127 _ 135 138 152 156 160 219 3 •» LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS TUESDAY, JANUARY 7, 1919. United States Senate, Committee on Military Affairs, W ashing ton, D. C. The committee met at 10 o’clock a. m., pursuant to call of the chair¬ man, in the committee room, Capitol, Senator George E. Chamber- lain presiding. Present: Senators Chamberlain (chairman), Hitchcock, Fletcher, Thomas, Beckham, Kirby, McKellar, Weeks, Sutherland, New, Knox, and Frelinghuysen; also Hon. Newton D. Baker, Secretary of War, and Hon. Benedict Crowell, Assistant Secretary of War. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. I will state generally to the committee that the Secretary of War wrote me a letter under date of December 29,1918, which I will read to the com¬ mittee so that it may be advised of the purpose of this meeting. The letter is as follows: War Department, Washington, December 29, 1918. My Dear Senator Chamberlain : At the time of the intervention of the armistice the War Department was in process of acquiring land and construct¬ ing buildings at Fayetteville, N. C.; Columbus, Ga.; and West Point, Ky., as permanent sites for the establishment of mobilization and training fields for artillery and small arms. Other camps were in process of construction for training in other arms, but at once upon the signing of the armistice an attempt \yas made to diminish the construction undertakings and to limit the training fields to the three in question. The purchases were proposed to be made out of appropriations already made, but the intervention of the armistice raises, of course, the question as to the policy which ought to be pursued with regard to these projects, and, of course, any policy pursued ought to have the concurrence and approval of the Congress. Mr. Crowell and I would, therefore, like to have an opportunity to lay before the Senate Committee on Military Affairs the details of these three projects in order that we may secure the counsel and advice of the committee for our further guidance. It seems to us very important to have the advice of the committee at the earliest possible moment, and I would be grateful if you would let me know the first convenience of the committee at which he and I can appear with appro¬ priate maps and data so that the whole case may be laid before you. Cordially, yours, Newton D. Baker, Secretary of War. Hon. George E. Chamberlain, Chairman Senate Committee on Military Affairs. I submitted this situation to the committee a few days ago, and they authorized me to arrange a hearing for to-day, if it was satis¬ factory to the Secretary, which I did, and the Secretary and Mr. Crowell are present. Mr. Secretary, the committee will be glad to hear you. 5 6 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. STATEMENT OF HON. NEWTON D. BAKER, SECRETARY OF WAR. Secretary Baker. Mr. Chairman, I shall make only a very brief statement, I hope in a few sentences, and then I shall ask Mr. Crowell to deal with the details for the information of the committee. Of course, it is unnecessary for me to say that modern warfare, as we have discovered its character in France, has shown the need of a very different kind of training for any Army organization that we will have, no matter what that Army may be, and without undertak¬ ing to discuss what sort of Army the United States ultimately ought to have, it is safe to assume that it will have a Regular Arm^ of some size, and, that that Regular Army, in order to be an efficient Army, will have to be trained in the kinds of warfare which have been demonstrated as the modern modes. They involve the use of heavy artillery and of rifles and machine guns under conditions and in modes which we never have had any sort of adequate opportunity for acquiring familiarity with. When the war was still on it became necessary for us to develop training camps for maneuvering and training in artillery and small arms on a very large scale. Among others, there were three projects— there were others, but only three that need to be presented here, be¬ cause the others are so little advanced that they can be abandoned without serious loss to the Government and without involving it in any sort of misunderstanding on the part of the people in the neigh¬ borhoods at which they were proposed to be located. But there were three that had been quite far advanced in the matter of plan and en¬ gagement with the persons who owned the land. Those three were, first, one at West Point, Ky., or near West Point, Ky., known as Stithton, which was intended to be a maneuver and practice ground for artillery of sufficient size to enable it to use bar¬ rage and to train men in large units in the use of artillery. The second was at Fayetteville, N. C., of like character with the one at Stithton, at least of like character of use, and the third wa^ a small arms training ground near Columbus, Ga. All three of these projects involve the acquisition of a very large acreage, tens of thousands of acres. When the armistice came we were in this situation with regard to all three of these grounds, although in different states of advance-, ment; we had entered upon and were occupying the grounds. Most, if not all of the farmers and residents—there were scattered farmers and residents here and there over these tracts, though they were rela¬ tively few T —but most of them had moved out and abandoned their cultivation and abandoned their homes. We had begun the erection of buildings and had progressed pretty far with the erection of bar¬ rack buildings, storehouses, and other ancillary buildings, and places of that sort, and had spent a good deal of money on each One of the three. The amount of rent which was agreed to be paid had been stipulated, and there was also an option at which the Government could acquire the land. It is all land of relatively low-acreage value. Tn addition to the rent the Government, of course, was obliged to pay whatever damages accrued to the land by reason of its temporary occupancy. When the armistice came, of course it became apparent that the immediate need of these grounds and buildings was not so LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 7 great, and the question which then arose was twofold: First, should we go on in the interest of having these training places for whatever Regular Army we have and complete these training grounds and acquire title permanently, or should we abandon them and leave the whole question an open one for Congress to determine later. In trying to come to some kind of conclusion about that, a study was made of the relative amounts which would be needed to stop pay¬ ing damages and the rent and the losses which would be involved in such permanent structures as we have, building roads, and putting in sewer systems, and the relative loss of treating the problem in that way and of going forward with the acquisition of the title, cutting down, however, the proposed amount of building so as not to have these grounds provided with buildings which would be adequate for training the Army on a war basis, but for the present at least con¬ structing only such buildings as would be necessary to conduct the training during any peace-time establishment in the modern uses of this Army. Mr. Crowell has all the facts and figures with regard to these three grounds. The Stithton ground and the Fayetteville ground are needed for artillery training. The Columbus (Ga.) camp, Camp Benning, was intended for small arms, and it was originally in¬ tended that there should be a tank field near Raleigh, N. C. That had gotten so little advanced when the armistice came that it was at once abandoned and the use of a portion of the ground at Co¬ lumbus, Ga., was proposed for the tank corps. That would make, at Columbus, Ga., the training in machine guns and rifles and also in tanks; it would make at Fayetteville the mass training in ar¬ tillery, and also at West Point. There is only one word that I want to say about it before you are introduced to the details. Some question was raised as to whether we had the right to buy these properties in view of the fact that the moneys placed at the disposal of the War Department were placed at our disposal for the emergencies of the war. The war having substantially come to an end, I feel that we ought not. without the knowledge and approval of the committees as repre¬ senting the nearest thing we could get and representing the ap¬ proval of Congress, to go forward with permanent betterments of the war establishment out of funds which were specially appro¬ priated for emergencv uses, and it was for that reason that we wanted to lay all the facts before the committee and get their judg¬ ment as business men and the policy-making body on the wisdom of either of the two courses suggested—either closing these projects and writing off the loss or going forward with them in their modi¬ fied form and having* it a part of the permanent Military Estab¬ lishment. ' . Now, with regard to the three projects. I am quite sure 1 speak advisedly when I say that the military men all feel that the three projects are necessary. Gen. Snow, who is Chief of Artillery, feels that it is absolutely essential, whatever sized Regular Army we have, to be able to*have artillery practice on the large scale that is involved in the laying down of barrages and the maneuver of field artillery; that is not possible at Fort Sill. They do individual target firing* there and that sort of thing, but for the maneuvering 8 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. of brigades of artillery at Fort Sill, the grounds are not large enough for it, or at least the situation is not suitable. It is not large enough for it on a large enough scale. Gen. Snow is quite sure that both of these grounds are large enough for any peace establishment that we have, and I think the entire opinion of the staff is that some such ground as that proposed at Columbus, Ga., is necessary for training in small arms. Of course, ordinary target range at which men learn to shoot at a target with target rifles or machine gunds, requires no such wide-reaching areas as are proposed there, but the drill and practice in attacking ma¬ chine-gun nests and in circumventing machine-gun emplacements and making flank and rear attacks on machine-gun fortifications, and the use of rifles in mass, are all parts of the things we have learned about modern war that the Army feel they ought to know about as part of their regular peace-time training. Senator Weeks. Before the Secretary leaves- Secretary Baker. I do not intend to leave, Senator. Senator Weeks. I want 1 6 ask you how it is going to be possible to determine what would be required in the way of fields and camps until we learn what the peace establishment of the Army should be? Secretary Baker. I do not intend to deal with that exactly in that form, but I do say that the staff feels that, no matter what the peace-time establishment ought to be, we are sure to have a Regular Army, and we have been proceeding on the theory in the War De¬ partment that Congress would feel justified in authorizing a peace¬ time establishment for the present of an Army of 500,000 men. These grounds are deemed necessary by the War Department—by the staff—no matter what the size of the Regular Army, on the as¬ sumption that we have any Regular Army, that ought to be trained in the use of modern weapons under modern methods. Senator Weeks. What is it contemplated to do with the grounds at Tobyhanna, Pa.? Is that project to be abandoned? Secretary Baker. It will be retained. Senator New. Those grounds were acquired long before the war, were they not ? Secretary Baker. Yes, sir; long before. Senator New. What is to be done with the grounds at Sparta, Wis.? Secretary Baker. I do not know about that; I can not answer as to that. Senator Thomas. What is the extent of the money value or money expenditures for the improvement already made at Columbus? Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell has those figures and will give them to you in acreage and dollars and all. I have not the details. Senator Thomas. All right; I will reserve my questions until he comes before the committee. Secretary Baker. There is one other matter that I should mention, merely out of courtesy, but it ought to be referred to. There was put into one of the House appropriation bills during the war a specific appropriation for the acquisition of one of these grounds—I think it was the one at Columbus, Ga. Senator Hitchcock. Fayetteville. Senator Thomas. Is that for artillery training? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 9 Secretary Baker. That is one of the artillery fields; yes, sir. When the bill came up to the Senate that item was omitted, and Gen. Snow, who w T as in conference with some of the members of the committee, and some of the members, as I understand it of the conference, learned the reason the specific item was omitted was that it was felt that the general appropriation for barracks and quarters and training grounds contained enough money to acquire these sites and no specific appropriation was necessary. The conference omitted the item. After that particular bill passed the War Department went on just as it had been going on with plans to acquire this property, and some suggestion was made that the War Department was going ahead on its own hook, buying land when Congress had withheld its approval for this specific purchase. The War Depart¬ ment did go ahead with the plan and acquire this land, but not at all on any understanding that Congress had disapproved the specific purchase, but merely that Congress felt that the money already appropriated was sufficient to cover the purpose. Senator McKellar. I am sure that Senator Martin had that view. Secretary Baker. Yes; I am sure that Senator Martin had that view. That is the reason I am explaining it now—the fact that the Senate knew the War Department had this money at its disposal, and Gen. Snow had been in conference with some Representatives and Senators and had gotten the belief from them that the only reason for leaving the item out was that we were supposed already to have the money, and that made us believe that Congress would not disapprove the item, and it did not need a further appropriation. The Chairman. I rather inferred from what the chairman of the Appropriations Committee said that they had turned it down because they did not think it advisable. I may have misunderstood him. Secretary Baker. That may be true. Senator Thomas. As a matter of fact, there was very little discus¬ sion of the project in the Senate. The bill was an emergency bill and the representations made were that we should pass it as expe¬ ditiously as possible, but that was about all. When that item was reached Senator Overman took the floor and submitted a few re¬ marks concerning it. I think his endeavor to answer the proposi¬ tion that it had not been estimated for had reference to part of the deficiency items. I do not think there was that discussion which w T ould have taken place regarding that and two or three other items of considerable amount if it had not been for the fact that time was regarded as essential to the enactment of the measure. But the general impression was that the Senate was averse to the acquisition of that’or any other ground which had not been fully acquired. Senator Hitchcock. You were speaking of the discussion in the Senate. Did not Senator Martin say that it had been extensively dis¬ cussed in the Committee on Appropriations? Senator Thomas. Yes. Senator Hitchcock. And that they were strongly opposed to it? Secretary Baker. I never knew that. I did know that the item had gone out; it had passed the House, as I understood it, but had gone out in the Senate, but I did know that in the discussion that took place while the conferees were discussing the bill, the statement was made to me that “ Congress has already appropriated plenty of 10 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. money for you to go ahead and do that so that we did not need a specific appropriation for this item.” The Chairman. Were all the expenditures incurred down there after the Senate committee cut it out? Secretary Baker. I can not answer that. Senator McKellar. What was the purpose of two artillery fields, one at Fayetteville, which is a camp, and the other a proving ground? Secretary Baker. No; neither is a proving ground; both are train¬ ing grounds. Aberdeen is the proving ground. Senator McKellar. Is it necessary to have in the Regular Estab¬ lishment two training grounds? Secretary Baker. Gen. Snow thinks so. May I be permitted to read this memorandum which was prepared by Gen. Snow as to the purchase of land at Fayetteville, N. C. ? This is signed by Gen. Snow, Chief of Artillery. Senator Thomas. What is the acreage of that North Carolina project? Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell has that information. It is 130,000 acres, I think. Senator McKellar. Is the Kentucky ground for the same purpose ? Secretary Baker. It is for the same purpose. Senator McKellar. Are you recommending three of these addi¬ tional camps? Secretan^ Baker. The Military Committee recommends all three. I am frank to say—and Mr. Crowell and I have talked it over—that we are inclined to believe that if we were going into it as a new project, with all the advantages at the start of recommending the acquisition of ground for this purpose, we would feel that two would be enough. Senator Thomas. Where is the third? Secretary Baker. At Columbus, Ga. Senator Thomas. Is that for artillery also,? Senator Baker. It is for small arms and tanks. Senator Thomas. The three, then, are approximately not very far apart? Secretary Baker. They are not very far apart. Senator Thomas. They are approximately in one section of the country ? Secretary Baker. They are approximately in one section of the country. We would feel if we were going into it originally, that two would be enough. I say if we were going into it originally and had not anything to consider except the needs of the Army, we would probably recommend only two—one for artillery and one for small arms. The question, however, is not quite as simple as that, because while the war was going on all three and more were plainly neces¬ sary. Now that the war is over we have come down to these three as being the three in which we have made already the largest invest¬ ment, and in which our relations with the persons who have been dispossessed create the largest number of equities to be considered in determining whether we were to go on with the three or limit it to two. Now, if the committee will hear Mr. Crowell on the facts, that is as much of a general statement as I care to make. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 11 Senator Johnson. Before you leave the committee, Mr. Secre¬ tary— Secretary Baker. I am not going to leave the committee, Senator. Senator Johnson. I desire to suggest two other matters. One is in connection with the bill that is to be brought up immediately, and the other was the demobilization. At our last meeting we reported unanimously the bill presented by Senator Hitchcock concerning the validation of contracts and the organization of various boards for determining the amount which might be awarded the deserving contractors. Since that time Mr. Max Thelan, in whom I have unbounded confidence, and whose ability we very well know in our territory, and who has been connected with the contract department of the War Department—has called upon me and has rather con¬ vinced me that the mode of determining the amounts that may be due to contractors under the bill as presented by Senator Hitchcock, and which we reported, ought to be modified so that the organization which now exists in the War Department be permitted to determine that particular fact. Now, I thought while the Secretary was here—unless it is matter that all of you are wholly familiar with—I was not—we might hear from him concerning the matter. I understand it is the intention of Senator Hitchcock to bring up the bill at the earliest moment, is it not? Senator Hitchcock. Yes; I think it ought to be passed very soon. Senator Fletcher. I think w r e ought to inquire into it fully be¬ cause I do not think there was any hearing before the bill was reported. Senator New. In that connection, I desire to say that there is present in Washington to-day a committee of manufacturers repre¬ senting a considerable number of those who met over in New York yesterday, I believe, to consider this bill. They are very anxious to have a brief hearing by this committee to enable them to present some facts which they think are essential to the proper considera¬ tion of this subject. One of their representatives, whom I very well know, is waiting in the Marble Room now to see if that hearing can be arranged. They say they will be very brief; that they just want a very short time. Senator McKellar. I think they ought to be heard. The Chairman. If there is no objection, we will hear them. Senator Johnson of California. The reason I brought the matter up was upon the understanding that it was Senator Hitchcock’s in¬ tention to bring his bill up immediately. Senator Hitchcock. I will postpone it under the circumstances. Senator New. I think that the bill ought to. be'acted upon without the delay of an unnecessary hour. It is a very important matter—im¬ portant more to the manufacturers than it is to the Government, be¬ cause it is the manufacturers who are on the short end of the string. I think it would be politic to hear what these gentlemen have to say, inasmuch as there was no hearing before the bill was considered. The Chairman. If there is no objection, they.will be given a hear¬ ing. Senator Kirby. I suggest that as we have this" particular matter up and these people have come to make statements about it, we ought 12 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. to finish this and then we can take the other matter up. I am for taking the other proposition up. Senator Johnson of California. I do not care whether you take it up or not. I simply wanted to call it to the attention of the com¬ mittee, because I did not want to be in the attitude when it comes up of being in opposition to the proposition without full information and without due notice to the committee. The Chairman. If there is no objection, we will hear these gentle¬ men a little later. We will fix a time for that purpose, but in the meantime Senator Johnson has very properly asked a question, and I think he is entitled to have an answer thereto. Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell and I are, of course, profoundly interested in the matter that is covered by the Hitchcock bill. We re¬ gard that as the most urgent matter before Congress and the depart¬ ment, and we would be very glad to yield the time and listen with interest to what these gentlemen have to say. The Chairman. Can we not close up this one proposition that we have in mind now, and we will call Secretary Baker back on the bill in question? We are now discussing, first, the acquirement of these training grounds. Let us finish that and then take up the other mat¬ ter. Now, Mr. Crowell, you may proceed with reference to the state¬ ment of facts about those three several grounds that have been men¬ tioned here. STATEMENT OF HON. BENEDICT CROWELL, ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF WAR. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Mr. Chairman,’ the facts as regards Camp Knox at West Point, Ky., are briefly these: The original proj¬ ect called for cantonments for six brigades of field artillery, officers training school for 10,000 men, base hospital for 2,500 beds, auxiliary remount depot for 5,000 animals, veterinary hospital for 1,000 horses, cantonments for one aero squadron, and one balloon school. This was cut down when the armistice was signed, and the present project provides for cantonments for four brigades of field artillery, one aero squadron, and one balloon school, with proportionate reduc¬ tion in auxiliary accommodations and omitting entirely officers’ train¬ ing school. The acreage involved is 40,000. There "can be no cut¬ ting down of the acreage, because the range of the guns is, of course, just the same. The estimated cost of the land for this project is $2,500,000. That is $62.50 per acre. Senator Hitchcock. Which one is that? Assistant Secretary Crowell. This is in Kentucky. The total amount involved for construction is $21,141,708.67. Senator Thomas. Of that amount will you state what has been ex¬ pended, or can you do that? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. That has been cut down to approximately $15,000,000 by this change, and of that amount $13,000,000 had.been expended at the time we made the change; in other words, this had gone forward so far that we cut it off just as short as we could. Senator McKellar. Had you bought the land? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 13 Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; this is the construction only that I am speaking of. Senator McKellar. You had put up $13,000,000 for construction, then ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; in other words, it was almost finished. Senator Beckham. You are only considering construction work here and not the land. Senator McKellar. On what kind of arrangement did you con¬ struct this work on the land? Did you do it by lease, or what? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; we went on the land as quickly as possible and told the owners that we were going to take it and they would have to get away. Senator Thomas. In that connection, lest I forget it, I would like to ask whether these improvements are still continuing, or have they been suspended? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The work is going on. As I have said, about $13,000,000 worth has been completed and we merely squared up and finished the buildings which were practically under roof. Senator Thomas. Is that true of the other two camps? Is the work still going on ? Secretary Crowell. Yes. I will explain the other two in detail in a moment. Senator Hitchcock. Before you get to that, may I ask when was this camp in Kentucky fixed upon ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. In the first place ? Senator Hitchcock. Yes. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Last spring. Senator Hitchcock. In the spring of 1918 ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. In the spring of 1918. Senator Kirby. Why was the land bought at $62 an acre there? Is there any special advantage in having that sort of land on a loca¬ tion in a country with railroad transportation, to have land there? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, of course, we had- Senator McKellar. Is there any mountainous land there? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; it is quite mountainous there, and that was the reason this particular land was selected. The mountains give a back stop for the artillery. Senator Kirby. You did not give $62.50 for mountain land? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; but we had to include fertile land in between. That is high. Senator Hitchcock. What did you pay, Mr. Secretary ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. We put a body of real estate men on the land. It is very much cut up in small holdings, and the ap¬ praisal is made up of each holding and the owner is offered a fair amount depending upon the appraisal. Then he usually accepts it, and if he does not, we condemn it. The land is all obtained at a fair and reasonable cost. Senator Fletcher. What sort of contract did you have—was it a lease or an option or a guarantee to buy ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. We told them we were going to buy it and asked them to get off. We, of course, could not wait dur- 14 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FI f!! 1>S. ing the war for the land to be appropriated, and si am going to show you now, a very small amount has already been appropriated. Senator Beckham. As to the matter of renting that land at West Point, the Government, through its representatives, has rented quite a good deal of it, and then set aside the contracts without notice. Has anything been done with regard to that as yet? Assistant Secretary Crowell. We rented no land at West Point. We notified them that we were going to purchase the land and we dispossessed them. Senator Beckham. But last spring there was quite a good deal of that land that was rented at a certain rent, and then by some order from the War Department it w T as annulled, set aside, and those people down there have not been able to get the rent you promised them. Secretary Baker. That is not in connection with this; I think that is in connection with the camp at Louisville. Senator Beckham. No; at West Point. Secretary Baker. At West Point? Senator Beckham. The case was brought before you recently. Secretary Baker. Yes; I remember your coming to see me about it. Senator Hitchcock. Mr. Secretary, does your record show to what extent this land has been paid for? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I will give you that. Senator Beckham. I would like to ask, before you take that up, whether anything has been done with regard to that matter. It has been brought to my attention quite a number of times. You will recall that I called you attention to it? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; but I can not give it to you offhand. Senator McKellar. Can you give us the number of acres in it that had formerly been rented by the Government? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not think any of this rented land that Senator Beckham speaks of is included in this -contract. Senator McKellar. What is the rented land? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not know what it is. The con¬ dition of this at the time of the armistice was this: The camp was to be 40,000 acres. One hundred and fifty-four thousand dollars has actually been paid to the owners in scattered tracts and as settle¬ ments could be made, formal acceptances have been made, aggre¬ gating $581,597.33. The construction quartermaster has taken pos¬ session of numerous properties for which settlement has not been made, or price agreed on, involving a total of between $400,000 and $500,000. It is estimated that about one-third of the entire area is cultivatable land, the average holdings being those of small farmers with tracts of 50 to 75 acres each. It is estimated that 60 to 75 per cent of the holdings have already been vacated by the owners. Every family.within the area involved had been consulted and informed that they would not be allowed to raise crops on the land this coming year. It is believed that practically every family that had not already vacated had already committed themselves to other plans based on the representation that the Government would take over their lands. That gives you the exact condition. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 15 Senator Thomas. Right there, in my State, the Government has reserved about one-third—between one-third and one-fourth of the entire area for the alleged benefit of remote posterity. I would like to know why the Government instead of paying this enormous sum for agricultural land, needed to raise food upon, has not devoted some part of this land reserved for the benefit of posterity for just such purposes as this in times of war? They could get not only 40,000 acres, but 100,000 acres of land in my State without paying one nickel for it. Those lands are both mountainous, and at the same time composed of area that is not particularly good for agri¬ culture. Now, it would seem to me, as a matter of economy, that in¬ stead of locating these camps in thickly settled agricultural com¬ munities, that good policy would have suggested their location somewhere on the public domain and upon land owned by the United States. Assistant Secretary Crowell. These camps are all located by carefully selected boards and as a result of long study. Senator Thomas. I know they are, but these carefully selected boards—I won’t say purposely, but certainly they avoided making any investigation in the premises out in my section of the country where the railroad facilities and other accommodations are good and where the cost to the Government would only consist of the structures to be erected on it. That does not seem to be good business. Senator Fletcher. 1 presume they had some idea with reference to convenience to the Atlantic seaboard. Assistant Secretary Crowell. There were a great many con¬ siderations, of course; the first one was that during the war the flow of everything was to be eastward. We wanted no cases of bringing materials or men to the East and sending them West again. Senator Thomas. And yet a good many soldiers were sent as far West as California. With respect to the people of my State, for instance, nearly all the men who had at first enlisted were sent West. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Nearly all the flow was to the eastward, and then, of course, the question of concentration of men in these camps was largely considered . Without going into detail, it was very carefully worked out. Senator McKellar. Has that camp been used up to date? • Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. How many men have you there now ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I could not give the number, but a good many. Senator McKellar. Is it used as a camp now ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator Kirby. How many cantonments and camps are adjacent to this land; how many of the regular cantonments and camps are within striking distance of these grounds? Do you remember that? Assistant Secretary Crowell. It depends on what you call “ strik¬ ing distance.” Senator McKellar. I mean a reasonable distance, as estimated bv the Military Department. Is the camp at Camp Polk close 16 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. enough to train these men there, and are the camps down in Georgia, Kentucky, and North Carolina close enough to train our men in artillery there? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; of course, this is a special training camp and has very little to do with the location of can¬ tonments or camps in which Infantry divisions are concentrated. Senator Kirby. I thought that was probably the excuse for locat¬ ing it there, because it was central and near the cantonments and camps ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is believed by this board that these two camps—Camp Knox, in Kentucky, and Camp Bragg, at Fayetteville, N. C.—were advantageously located in every way, all these things being considered. Shall I take up Camp Bragg next, at Fayetteville? Senator Weeks. Mr. Secretary, will you put in the record the names of the board that recommended the location of these camps? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. The location of Camps Bragg and Knox was determined upon recommendation of Maj. Gen. William J. Snow, Chief of Field Artillery; Col. Mclntire, Field Ar¬ tillery; Lieut. Col. C. S. Blakely, Field Artillery; and Maj. E. P. King, Field Artillery. With respect to Camp Bragg, at Fayetteville, N. C., the original project embraced accommodations for approximately 46,000 men, and related to the establishment of a Field Artillery cantonment and training center for six Field Artillery brigades. The accommoda¬ tions were to be as follows: One camp headquarters and firing center'; 6 Artillery brigade headquarters; 6 Artillery brigades; 6 trench mor¬ tar batteries; 6 ammunition trains; 2 labor battalions; 1 corps Ar¬ tillery park; Quartermaster and utilities personnel, of 2,120; 1,000 animal veterinary hospital; 2 balloon companies; 1 aero squadron; 1 remount depot for 7,500 animals. From 46,000 men this was cut down to 16,000 men, including 2 brigades of Field Artillery, 1 aero squadron, and 1 balloon company, after the armistice. The acreage of the camp is approximately 135,000 acres. The estimated cost of the land is approximately $1,500,000, or about $11 per acre. The amount of money involved is $17,000,000, roughly, in the old project. It will be cut down to approximately $10,000,000 in the new project. The Chairman. How much of that has been expended? Senator Thomas. How much has been expended, about? Assistant Secretary Crowell. About $8,000,000—over $8,000,000.. Senator Knox. Have you any figures showing the relation between what it will cost to go on and acquire the title to this land and what it will cost to adjust the damages already sustained by the land- owners ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, Senator. Secretary Baker. I think you have that. Did you not show me a sheet showing the estimated damages? Assistant Secretary Crowell. That was for the other camps. We have felt committed to the purchase of these lands and have not made that estimate. Senator Knox. I think that would be instructive. Assistant Secretary Crowell. We can readily make it. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 17 Comparison of costs: To complete construction_!_$2, 000,000 To complete purchase of land_,_ 1, 400, 000 Total__,_ 3, 400, 000 Estimated cost of damages_ 500, 000 Senator Fletcher. How much of the $8,000,000 has gone toward the purchase of the land? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The condition of the land purchased is this: Of approximately 135,000 acres- Senator Kirby. Is that not more than in the other camps ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Oh, yes; the others are 40,000 and 130,000, respectively. At Camp Bragg $33,607 have actually been paid to owners, and formal acceptances yet unsettled have been made amounting to $48,360.80. Petition for condemnation had been filed covering 8,000 acres. About 10 per cent of the entire reservation is cultivated land. All owners and tenants had been notified that their lands would be taken over by the Government, and in many instances they have arranged to go elsewhere, and in many instances have actually moved. All were notified they could not raise a crop this coming year on these lands. In some instances the tenants had pur¬ chased elsewhere, making a small payment and giving notes for the balance, relying on the receipt of their money from the Government for their present holdings to pay for the new lands acquired. Senator Thomas. What proportion of that 140,000 acres was agri¬ cultural land? Assistant Secretary Crowell. About 10 per cent. I will say that this land is a belt of sand, that extends across North Carolina, and is very close to Pinehurst, and is similar to Pinehurst. It is land in which the rains immediately sink, and they figure that they can work there under all conditions of rainfall. Senator Weeks. What is the advantage of the Kentucky location over the North Carolina location? They are for the same general purpose, are they not? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; they are for the same purpose. It is the configuration of the land. In Kentucky the land is hilly and mountainous, and it gives them a training that they will not get at Fayetteville, where there is a gentle rolling surface. Senator McKellar. How many can be trained in Kentucky, and how many at Fayetteville? Assistant Secretary Crowell. We are not reducing the acreage in any of these, but we have reduced to the lowest possible amount the cantonments, the structures, so that we can train the original num¬ ber that we have provided for; and, in the case of this camp, it was 46,000 men. Senator McKellar. And the two other camps about the same number ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; about the same. Both were intended for six brigade camps. Senator Hitchco.ck. It is substantially the same acreage? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; this involves 130,000 acres, and there are 40,000 acres in the other camp. Senator Hitchcock. What is the price of this land in North Carolina ? 99137—19-2 18 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is $11 per acre as against $62 per acre. The reason that the acreage is large is that it is perfectly evident that we have no mountains to shoot against, and have to allow for the full range of the guns. Senator McKellar. Then, we will have three camps in which ap¬ proximately 150,000 troops, Field Artillery troops, can be trained after the war—a machine-gun camp? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; I might take up the ma¬ chine-gun camp. Senator McKellar. There are two. That would be 100,000. That is a large proportion, is it not? Does not that portend a pretty big Army that we have got to care for? Senator Thomas. We have to back up the league of nations. Senator Hitchcock. Before you come to that matter, you have down there at Aberdeen a proving ground of a very large number of acres. What is the acreage there? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Between 30,000 and 35,000 acres. Senator Hitchcock. Is it not possible to combine the two uses? You will not be proving very much, and we already own that ground, I understand, and it has been used for artillery practice. Assistant Secretary Crowell. We would have to give it up en¬ tirely as a proving ground if we used it for training purposes. Senator Hitchcock. You would not want to train while you were proving. There is not going to be an incessant firing there.. Is there not any way of economizing, as individuals do? Has the Govern¬ ment always to go on the most expensive way? If there are 30,000 acres there it would seem that they would not always be used for proving operations. Could you not use it part of the time for one purpose and part of the time for the other? Assistant Secretary Crowell. They tell me they can not. I have discussed that with the military division officers and they tell me that it can not be done. Senator McKellar. What is the reason for it ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The fact that in proving the land that lies between the muzzle of the gun and the range of those guns can not be used by troops because they are shooting live shells and you have got targets everywhere, and we have to keep everybody off those areas. Secondly, I want to say that the land at Aberdeen is very largely marsh land, which is not at all adaptable for training. I think we could get very little training in that area. Secretary Baker. Aberdeen is over there at one of the indentations of the bay, here and there, and scattered all around through the marsh. It would not do for training at all. Senator Thomas. Another reason, I remember, and as you know, is that delegations from every State are insisting that the State shall have one of these appropriations, and one of these donations, so, necessarily, the department is obliged to some degree to recognize that situation. Senator Weeks. I went over the Aberdeen proving ground very carefully, and it seemed’ to me there was ample space there for drill purposes, and, of course, even if you are testing guns or ammuni¬ tion, you might well break joints in drilling operations. I am not advocating particularly that that should be used for that purpose, but it does not seem to me that the reasons for not doing it are sound. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 19 You could prove two or three hours a day and do the drilling at the hours that you usually would. While there are indentations in the bays, and while there is some marsh, there is a very large amount of high, dry land there—I should say ample for the purpose of drilling two brigades at one time in one location. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Our people have all reported just the opposite. I am not an expert, of course. Senator Hitchcock. Congress is very much impressed, of course, with the fact that there ought to be a much more definite purpose of economy in the administrative branch of the Government, and we are a little afraid that the General Staff never considers that, which is being borne in on us all the time by the demands to reduce taxes. Senator McKellar. The war is over, and we have got to cut ex¬ penses in some way. Assistant Secretary Crowell. If it is true that the General Staff does not consider expense, I can assure you that the Secretary and I do. We watch this matter very closely. Senator Fletcher. As I understand the situation here, provision was made and you spent most of the money that was required? Senator Hitchcock. In the case of this item, it came up before the Committee on Appropriations of the House. I think it involved $17,000,000. Of course, that is a mere trifle, but it seems they want Congress to appropriate that additional amount of money- Assistant Secretary Crowell. For the two. Senator Hitchcock. For the Fayetteville project alone, as I re¬ call it. Assistant Secretary Crowell. There is no question of any appro-* priation here. I think the money is already in hand. Secretary Baker. The Senator is referring to a previous appropri¬ ation by the Appropriations Committee, that Senator Martin has in hand. Senator Hitchcock. It does seem to involve additional money, and I know that this committee, and every other committee in the House and Senate, is impressed with the fact that there has to be much more attention paid to reducing expenses. Secretary Baker. The assistant secretary has not brought out the point that has controlled his judgment and mine to a very large extent, and that is the question of economy to which you refer. Here is this enormous expenditure for this land, involving tens of millions of dollars. The abandonment of these projects means, of course, no salvage of that investment. As in the case to which he is referring, of the land value at Fayetteville, the entire estimated expense of the land is only a million and a half dollars, while the money already actually expended there in roads, sewers, water sys¬ tems, structures, warehouses, sidetracks of railroads, and all that sort of thing, runs up to $8,000,000 or $9,000,000. how, simply to cut off and abandon that, quite apart from the equitable expectation of the people we dispossessed, means no salvage of that enormous invest¬ ment, If, on the other hand, the Government buys this land and pays a million and a half of residue, and owns it, quite apart from the use we get out of it, we have a very much better opportunity of salvaging some of the investment. It is that business aspect of it that I was particularly anxious to have the committee address its thought to. 20 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Hitchcock. Has the department taken any thought as to the effect on the State or county of taking such a very large body of land out of its tax valuations for the county? Secretary Baker. Yes; take the Fayetteville situation, for in¬ stance. Mr. Crowell referred to the fact that 10 per cent of this land is cultivatable land. As a matter of fact, it is almost the un¬ cultivated section of North Carolina; it is a great sand belt and only within the last two or three years has anybody been induced to go into it for farming purposes. In some conventions and gatherings they had in North Carolina, an effort was made to divert some of the people from the mountain section over to this sand belt with a view to raising tobacco, and perhaps cotton. Few farmers have gone in, and they put in every modern improvement, so we are not dispossessing an ancient agricultural section. The section has not been one that has produced any extensive revenue to the State of North Carolina or to the counties of which it is a part. It is a very sparsely settled section of the State. Senator Hitchcock. Is anything done in cases of this sort to secure from the legislature of the State a cession of sovereignty over property before the Government invests this large sum of money? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; nothing of that sort was done in this case because of the emergency of the war. Senator Hitchcock. Heretofore that has been the practice that the Government has made that reservation. Secretary Baker. I think that has been the uniform practice with regard to the permanent posts, but in the war we did not stop. The legislatures were not in session and we simply took the land in order to train the people. Senator Sutherland. I think that has already been done in training in the Appalachian forests. Secretary Baker. The purchases in the Appalachian forests have been embarrassed somewhat by the hostile legislation of some of the States. One of the States recently passed a law relieving some embarrassments. Perhaps Senator McKellar will remember that we had a controversy with the State of Tennessee about that. They passed some legislation discouraging purchases in the Appalachian forests, and the forest commission discontinued the purchases in Tennessee until the readjustment had been brought about by their legislature. Senator McKellar. I do not recall how that was. Secretary Baker. The controversy is entirely disposed of now. It was rather restrictive legislation on the part of the State as to purchases already made. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Answering Senator Hitchcock’s questions specifically—that portion of the area of Camp Bragg, lying within the bounds of Hoke County, embraces 90,523 acres, and the total area of Hoke County is 314,242 acres, therefore, the camp area within the county represents approximately 29 per cent of the total acreage within the county. The total assessed valuation of the taxable property in Hoke County is $3,992,009. The total assessed valuation of the area embraced within the limits of Camp Bragg, within Hoke County, is $434,780, which represents approximately only 11 per cent of the taxable resources of the county. The total number of poll taxes appearing upon the tax records of Hoke County LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 21 is 1,602. The total number of poll taxes appearing upon the records as assessed against the area of Camp Bragg, within the limits of Hoke County, is 178, or approximately 11 per cent. Assuming one poll tax per family, which is a very low estimate, there are no more than 178 families within the area of Camp Bragg, in Hoke County. Senator Thomas. Is this still the North Carolina project? Assistant Secretary Crowell. This is still answering the question as to the effect on the county. So that we are taking up about 11 per cent of the taxable amount of the county and of the whole poll tax. Senator Hitchcock. What is the attitude of the county officials under those circumstances? Assistant Secretary Crowell. We have heard nothing from the county officials. They were very anxious to have us go down and locate there. Secretary Baker. I have heard, not so much from the officials but business men of the communities, and they all feel that there would grow up around any of these camp places business that would min¬ ister to the soldier population, and that there would be appreciation of adjacent land value that would be enough to compensate for the loss of the tax land. Senator Thomas. It would be a strange community that would object to it. Assistant Secretary Crowell. We have had violent opposition from some of the men that we were dispossessing because we have not paid them their money. That is the great difficulty, the great hardship, of dispossessing these people and taking away their farms and not paying them for them. Senator Hitchcock. What is the reason the money has not been paid? Assistant Secretary Crowell. We simply held it up since the armistice until we could consult with Congress. Senator McKellar. What percentage has not been paid for? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I gave those figures. In this par¬ ticular case it was very small. Senator Knox. I think you had the right to take it under the cir¬ cumstances, as you did. The Government thereby incurred a lia¬ bility to these people that they are entitled to enforce. I do not know that you have any option in the matter. If you take their land and dispossess them, and that was a lawful taking, the Government is a debtor to those people for the value of that land. Senator Fletcher. You were proceeding to condemn? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; but we could not get it at a reasonable figure. The Chairman. But the great part of the expense has been in im¬ provements, and not in the land value? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. Secretary Baker. The land values are relatively small in each case. Senator McKellar. Have we enough improvements to do training in peace times? Assistant Secretary Crowell. We spent over $8,000,000 in con¬ struction. Senator McKellar. Would that not be sufficient for any peace¬ time training? Why should we spend more money? 22 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Merely because it is not balanced. It is just the way the construction happened to be. Senator McKellar. Are we using it now, or in war time? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; we have men in all of those camps that I am speaking of. Senator McKellar. If you had men there and were training them there during the war when they were very necessary, why should we add to the construction now that the war is over. It seems to me that any construction at any of these camps, unless it is some repairing or something like that, is absolutely a waste of the people’s money. I think every bit of the construction at all of these camps should be stopped and stopped instantly. Senator Beckham. What I understand is, Mr. Secretary, that you are not proposing to expend money on construction now as much as the purchase of the land itself? Senator McKellar. I think you are mistaken. Secretary Crowell has just stated that it is contemplated to put— how many millions in construction at this place since peace has been declared ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I stated that, but I do not recall it at the moment. I will have to look it up. Senator McKellar. I understood you to say $16,000,000, but I am not sure. Assistant Secretary Crowell. About $10,000,000 is the total esti¬ mate. We have spent over $8,000,000 already. Senator McKellar. So you will have about $2,000,000 more? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. What possible service could that do? Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is merely rounding up of con¬ struction. A building may be under roof, but it will cost consider¬ able to make it serviceable. Senator McKellar. You certainly would not need in peace time any additional construction. You have all the construction there now that you possibly need. Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is not completed. These build¬ ings are not completed. Senator McKellar. I know, but suppose they are not. Suppose you just take them and tear them down or throw them away or sell them to anybody who comes along, those incomplete ones—you have enough completed ones to train all the soldiers that you can possibly train at that place; is that not correct? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; it is not correct at all. The chief of Field Artillery has stated definitely that this is the least we can get along with, no matter what the size of the Army is. We have cut this down from six brigades to two brigades. Senator McKellar. You have not enough construction there to cover two brigades ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. These buildings were not completed. The buildings might be under roof and yet require considerable ex¬ penditure to make them livable. If we start a water system we must finish it. We can not cut it off. If we start sewers we have to com¬ plete them. Senator Thomas. Your original plan contemplated six brigades; your present plan contemplates two. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 23 Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. Senator Thomas. Why could not the construction be contracted to two brigades, and the material on the ground or in the unfinished structures, be used for the completion of such structures as are neces¬ sary for only two brigades? Assistant Secretary Crowell. That is exactly what has been done. Senator McKellar. Have you got more than two brigades at this camp now ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir. Senator McKellar. It is reduced to two now ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. I mean how many brigades have you there now—how many troops have you been training there? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not know. Senator McKellar. We ought to know these facts. How can we possibly pass upon it unless we have the facts. According to your figures the War Department—or this board or committee—is vir¬ tually contemplating the completion of these various camps for a peace-time organization of the Army which is going to be larger than what we have actually been using in war times. Now, to my mind that ought not to be done. It seems to me w 7 e ought to have the facts here before us and there ought not to be any further construction unless it is absolutely necessary for two brigades. If you have enough buildings there and enough sewerage there to look after the two brigades that you expect to have there in peace times, surely any other construction ought not to be made regardless of whether it is started or not. Assistant Secretary Crowell. That is exactly what we did; we looked the situation over very carefully and found that the two- brigade camp was so far along that it was economical to complete it. and we immediately reduced the camp to a two-brigade camp. Senator McKellar. As I understand it- Senator Kirby. Senator McKellar, it seems to me that the Secre¬ tary had stated, in a way, heretofore, that the construction was not balanced; in other words, they might have finished the buildings without completing the sewers, or without completing the railroad tracks, or without completing the waterworks system, and it took this much expenditure to complete the camp. Senator McKellar. That is just what I am trying to get at. He does not seem to know how it was himself, and I would like to know. I do not want to vote for a cat in a bag. I want to know what we have down there at Camp Bragg before we authorize the completion of it, because I do not think we ought to authorize the completion of these big camps in peace times, because we are not going to have a very large Army. If this Congress does not keep down the Army the American people will put representatives here who will cut it down. . . Assistant Secretary Crowell. Of course a building 80 per cent completed is of no use to anybody. Senator McKellar. If you go on and complete it you lose that 20 per cent of good money and the building will be still of no use to anybody; in other words, suppose it is 80 per cent completed, and vou are not going to use it at all after completion, what is the use of completing it? 24 LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Assistant Secretary Crowell. But the Chief of Artillery tells us it is absolutely necessary. In other words, we have cut this down to the bone already. Senator McKellar. I would like to have the facts in the matter. I wish you would report how many you can take care of now— whether you can take care of two brigades—and what the exact physical facts are before we authorize the expenditure of more money. Assistant Secretary Crowell. I have given you the exact number of men. I think it is in the record here somewhere, but I will be very glad, if anything is not in there, to give it to you later. Senator McKellar. All right. Note. —Accommodations at present (Jan. 7, 1919) are as follows: Camp Knox—One brigade is being accommodated by doing considerable work on its own buildings; a second brigade can be accommodated shortly, but will have to do a great deal of work on the buildings to make them habitable. Camp Bragg— There are no accommodations at present; one brigade can be accommodated in about six weeks and another brigade still later. Assistant Secretary Crowell. May I proceed with Camp Benning ? The Chairman. Yes. Senator Beckham. There is one matter that I have not very clearly in mind in the case of Camp Bragg. I understand that the estimate of the total cost is approximately $10,000,000? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. Senator Beckham. And of that $10,000,000 you have expended so far something over $8,000,000? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes.. Senator Beckham. That leaves a balance of less than $2,000,000. What is proposed to be done with that balance, to finish the work already done, or does it include also the purchase of the land ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; merely to finish the work underway. Senator Beckham. And then the purchase of the land would be in addition to that? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; a million and a half. Senator Beckham. A million and a half, making the total cost, then, something like $11,500,000. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator New. I have been twice called out of the room, and you may have testified to these points in my absence. How many acres of land is it contemplated to purchase at Camp Bragg ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. One hundred and thirty thousand acres. Senator Thomas. I thought you said 140,000 acres? Senator McKellar. No; it is 40,000 acres in Kentucky. It is 130,000 at this camp. Assistant. Secretary Crowell. I said 135,000, and some of my records show 140,000. It is indeterminate, within a few thousand acres. Senator New. I have here a memorandum that says 130,000, so it is approximately 135,000 acres of land. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator New. Is any portion of that land owned by any one set of people ? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 25 Assistant Secretary Crowell. I have gone into that in a brief way. About 10 per cent is cultivated land. Senator Thomas. Owned by a considerable number of people, I imagine? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; the greater part of it is holdings of small families. Senator New. I have been told that something like 44,000 acres of it in one tract belongs to two or three gentlemen, or at least a very few gentlemen, who have been using it as a game preserve. Do you know anything about that? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir; I do not. Senator New. I have the names of two or three that have been furnished me as part owners of that tract. I know nothing what¬ ever about it, but the name of ex-Congressman Kent, of California, is given as one of the owners of it, and one of the members of one of the Federal boards is given as another owner of it. Do you know anything as to the correctness of the facts in that case? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not. I have no* knowledge of the name of any owner or owners of that piece of property. It is all in our records. Senator McKellar. We can call on Mr. Kent and that can be ascertained. Will you do us the kindness to state whether Mr. Kent is connected with it and who his associates are? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. I think it is as well to clear the matter up and get all the facts. Senator New. Can the Secretary submit a list of the tract owners? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I shall be very glad to. The Chairman. Limited to tracts over 1,000 acres. Senator New. Yes; we do not care about these little fellows. Senator Weeks. I was suggesting in addition, Mr. Secretary, that if the large tracts were owned by an association or corporation, if it is not too voluminous, the names and addresses of the members of the association be included. Senator McKellar. And let that apply to all three camps. OWNERS OF TRACTS LARGER THAN 1,000 ACRES AT CAMPS BENNING, BRAGG, AND KNOX.. These lists are incomplete, and wefe furnished by the Real Estate Section, Purchase, Storage, and Traffic Division, General Staff. The records are not yet all in from the field. Camp Benning: Acres. Adams, I. F., estate-.- T - 1,190 Bullock, O. C__ 2, 000 Bussey, Arthur_ 1, 782 Bradley, W. C., Co_1_ 2,338 Black, Mrs. L. R_ 1,413 Pou, John Dozier, et al_- 1, 200 Psalmonds, J. S- 1,620 Rich, Mrs. Sarah A_ 1, 622 Smith, Mrs. Lula K- 2,168 Schley, Mrs. F. V___ 1,106 Wynn, E. J_ 1, 994 Camp Bragg: W. M. Blue--- 2,990 N. S. Blue_12,000 W. A. Blue_ 3, 500 26 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Camp Bragg—Continued. Mary S. Blue___ 2,500 A. D. McGill_ 2, 405 John H. Rogers___ 2, 780 Maggia Sikes___ 2, 780 Overhill’s Club_ 8, 000 Real Estate Section (Mr. Woods) states he knows nothing of any holdings by Mr. Kent. If such existed and were large, he says he would surely know. As to Camp Knox, no figures are available at the Office of the Real Estate Section, but it is stated definitely by Mr. Woods and Maj. Holden that practi¬ cally no large tracts exist. The area comprises many small farms. Of the large owners at Camp Bragg, Mr. Woods states that the Overhill’s Club and Mr. N. S. Blue, who are the largest holders, are actively opposed to having their tracts included in the camp site. Senator Weeks. There is one more question that I would like to ask. Has the War Department made any estimate of the annual cost of maintenance of one of these camps? Take Camp Bragg, for example, which has cost $10,000,000. What would the annual cost of maintenance be after the war? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; I will furnish that. ANNUAL MAINTENANCE COST OF A CAMP AFTER THE WAR. It is estimated that it would require a battalion of Infantry (approximately 1,000 men) for necessary guard, police, and fire protection. The cost of main¬ taining this force would be the same whether on this duty or some other. They would be.part of the Military Establishment. Cost of repairs to buildings and utilities would be negligible. Senator Sutherland. What effect will this have on the Toby- hanna. Pa., artillery proving camp, where the Government owns something like 20,000 acres of ground, bought for the purpose of an artillery proving ground? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The ranges are not long enough at Tobyhanna to be used for this purpose, and the climate is very much against it. In the winter it can not be used at Tobyhanna. Senator Sutherland. Do you propose then to just abandon that place up there, if it is not used for artillery purposes? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can not state. Senator Sutherland. Is that not a very large waste of money? ‘It seems to me to have been a very serious blunder to have pur¬ chased so large a tract up there without having in view the length of the range. Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can not say what the purpose was when that was purchased. I do not know anything about it. Senator McKellar. When was it purchased, this year ? The Chairman. Oh, no; a number of years ago. Assistant Secretary Crowell. I will say that a good many of these tracts were carefully looked over before they were determined upon. Senator Weeks. Was not Tobyhanna intended very largely as a training camp for the Federal Government in the summer months! Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can not answer that. Senator Sutherland. Tobyhanna, as I recall, was selected by one of the best artillery officers in the Army. He is now a major gen¬ eral in France. He examined all the sites all over the country and LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 27 finally selected Tobyhanna, Pa., as affording the best advantages for the artillery proving ground. It was so stated to me, and I was wondering whether it would entail the absolute abandonment of that expensive site. Assistant Secretary Crowell. I know nothing about Tobyhanna, Senator. Senator Sutherland. The climate there a good part of the year must be very fine. There would probably be three or four months in the year when it would not be good. The mountain climate there is most desirable in the summer. It is a very healthful climate and the troops up there I know in the summer of 1916 were all well cared for and in a very high degree of health. Senator Knox. Tobyhanna is on the summit of the Kittatinny Mountains; it is a very delightful climate. The whole place is built up with resorts. Of course it is a very bad climate in the winter¬ time; there is no question about that. Senator Kirby. I suggest that that matter is not under investiga¬ tion at this time. We have under consideration this last camp there. I would like to hear the Assistant Secretary on the Georgia camp before we get through. Senator New'. I would like to ask one other question. I understand that there is a post at Sparta, Wis. Tasked the Secretary of War about that when he w as on the stand, and he said he did not know 7 about it. Have you any information about that—what is it proposed to do with it ? Assistant Secretary Crow ell. No, sir. I think it would be best to get Gen. Snow' before you to answer such questions, because mv in¬ formation comes from him. Senator New. Very good. Senator Weeks. Mr. Secretary, of course he could not decide these questions of policy at all. Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; but he would be familiar with the use of a camp such as Tobyhanna. Senator Weeks. The Senator from Indiana asked what disposi¬ tion it was intended to make of that camp. That would be a matter of policy. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Well, he would be familiar with it. I can not recall it now. We have a good many such cases. Senator Tiiomas. I suppose you came here, Mr. Secretary, upon these three matters particularly? Assistant Secretary Crow t ell. Yes, sir. Camp Benning is located at Columbus, Ga. This camp originally provided cantonments for approximately 26,000 officers and men; it was contemplated to estab¬ lish an Infantry school of arms to train 4,000 graduates of central officers’ training school for Infantry each month. The course w*as to be for three months, making a total of 12,000 students in attendance. After the armistice this project was changed very materially. The size of this school w 7 as reduced and other schools w 7 ere added to it. The present project provides a main Infantry technical training school, including school of arms for Infantry and Cavalry, machine- gun school for all arms, tank school, semipermanent cantonment con¬ struction for approximately 10,000 officers and men, being reduced from 26,000. 28 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator McKellar. Could you not use some of the various canton¬ ments that are obliged to go out of use after this war is over rather than build a new one or buy a new one at this time ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The committees that have investi¬ gated say that we can not. Senator McKellar. Regardless of committees—let us dispose of them for a minute and talk about it as men, with our own views as men, without regard to committee recommendations. Here we have camps, nearly a half dozen camps—in Georgia I think there are five; no doubt splendid places for them—several in North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, Indiana, New York, Massachusetts, and elsewhere. Now, you have constructed these camps with waterworks and houses, and you have every advantage and every comfort that can be obtained for the young men preparing in any military branch. With all these camps already built and paid for, is it not possible that we could use some of them for schools rather than spend twenty-odd millions of dollars, or whatever the amount is, in building a new one at Columbus ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Of course, none of them have the acreage that is involved here for this school of fire. Senator McKellar. Can we not use one of them in North Caro¬ lina, or one of the Kentucky camps, as a school of fire ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Not if we are going to use them for artillery purposes. Senator Sutherland. What is the acreage in this land? Assistant Secretary Crowell. One hundred and thirty thousand acres at Columbus. Senator Thomas. You say that can not be done. Is it contemplated that Camp Bragg, for instance, is to be used continuously for artil¬ lery practice? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; Camp Benning I am speak¬ ing of. Senator Thomas. But I am talking about this North Carolina project. It seems to me that with two brigades there they will not be practicing training for artillery all the time. Now, why could not a certain number of months be set apart for artillery training and a certain number for rifle shooting? Assistant Secretary Crowell. By cutting out some of the artil¬ lery training you could undoubtedly put in some rifle training. Senator Thomas. Is it really contemplated in time of peace to keep two brigades there in artillery training every day of the year? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator Thomas. Constantly? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir—some brigades, of course. Senator McKellar. How many brigades are we going to have of Artillery ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not know. Senator Thomas. Do you not think before we spend twenty-odd millions on that camp that we ought to know pretty well what we are going to have, when we have so many camps and so much in all parts of the country and in all kinds o*f land? Would it not be the part of wisdom to let us find out what our program is going to be before we acquire these large tracts of land and put sewers in LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 29 and put buildings on them that will cost so many millions of dollars? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Unfortunately this was largely done before the armistice. If we were treating with it anew to-day, we might take very different action. Senator Fletcher. Let us hear what has been done on it. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Compared to the others, very little has been done at Camp Benning. Senator Sutherland. I was told by an officer who returned from that camp that his judgment was that we did not need anything like the number of acres contemplated. He asked the officers who were promoting the larger scheme what they wanted with so much land, and they said it would be very nice for a game preserve for the officers who came to that camp; they would want to go out be¬ tween times and hunt, and it would be very useful to them to have it there as a game preserve for officers. Senator McKellar. If you have this game preserve in North Caro¬ lina, why have another one down in that locality? Could we not confine the officers to the game preserve in North Carolina, and not give them another one in Georgia? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I have, and will present, maps of Benning and Bragg showing how it is intended to use the acreage. I will say that these estimates are somewhat tentative and will be reduced, of course, if possible. In my opinion, though, a very large acreage is involved in each of these camps. Senator Sutherland. It would not be necessary to have such a range for a small-arms range for artillery? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir. Senator Sutherland. The range for small arms would not be so great ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No. Of course, we are having here a combination of rifles and machine guns. Senator Sutherland. You can do a great deal of shooting over five or six thousand acres with small arms. Assistant Secretary Crowell. We have had to be perfectly safe and have enough. It is economy to do it. Senator Kirby. You use about 10,000 acres at Camp Pike for a maneuvering ground, with 60,000 men in training there. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; but not for a school of fire. Senator Kirby. But they train the Infantry there—of 60,000 men. Assistant Secretary Crowell. They drill them and train them to shoot at a target, but no maneuvering. Senator Thomas. What is the acreage at Camp Benning? Assistant Secretary Crowell. 130,000 acres. Senator Kirby. And the number of people there—10,000 ? Assistant Secretarv Crowell. 10,000 officers and men to be trained; yes, sir. The estimated cost of the land is $3,600,000, which is be¬ tween $25 and $30 an acre. Senator McKellar. How much has been spent? Assistant Secretary Crowell. About a million dollars; and the project calls for a total of $14,124,900. Senator McKellar. How much has been spent for construction ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. About a million dollars. 30 LAND FOE ART1LIJERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator McIvellar. And the purchase of the land? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The purchase of the land is very small. I will go into that matter. Senator McKellar. How much is proposed to be spent? Assistant Secretary Crowell. About $14,000,000 to complete the project on construction. Prior to the signing of the armistice-- Senator Thomas. Let me ask you a question there. I dislike to interrupt you so much; but is the work of improvement going on there also? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; on this new project. Senator Thomas. I think that ought to be stopped until it is de¬ termined what is to be done in the matter, for the reason that your initial expenditures there are very slight. Assistant Secretary Crowell. It has been slowed down as far as we thought practicable. In all of these projects the number of men had been tremendously reduced, but the buildings in the other two camps were in such state that it was impossible to stop. Senator Thomas. I am talking about this one. I think that the expenditure is so small, comparatively' speaking, that it would be well to suspend it altogether until some legislation be enacted. That is my judgment about it. Assistant Secretary Crowell. That can readily be done. No land had actually been acquired prior to the armistice. Since that time 25 or 30 families have actually been moved from the tract in and near the temporary rifle range. All other families have been notified that they must vacate, some by February 1, others March 1, and still others April 1. It is estimated that the entire tract embraces ap¬ proximately 30,000 acres of cultivatable land. All tenants or hold¬ ers have been notified that they would not be able to produce a crop this coming year on these lands and should make arrangements ac¬ cordingly. In consequence some have bought elsewhere, or obligated themselves to buy elsewhere, and, in general, it may be said that all tenants of cultivated land within the reservation have made arrange¬ ments for vacation. In some instances a few dairies owning blooded stock have disposed of their dairy stock upon the representation to them that they would be required to vacate their present holdings. Land has been actually purchased at Camp Benning in the sum of $29,818.75. My statement that no land had been purchased was wrong; $29,818.75 has been spent. Senator McKellar. $29,000 worth of land has been purchased? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. sir; additional commitments have been made for the purchase of land amounting to $118,975.75. The Chairman. Were these commitments all before the armistice was signed? Assistant Secretary Crowell. It was all before the 1st of Decem¬ ber. It took a few days after the armistice to marshall these facts and get them together. Senator Sutherland. Are these in the shape of options rather than absolute contracts to purchase that land down there ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Do you mean the commitments? Senator Sutherland. Yes; for that land. Is it all in the shape of options, which need not be exercised, rather than contracts for pur¬ chase and sale? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 31 Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think not. The commitments to purchase are, I think, very definite. Senator Sutherland. 1 understood it was largely in the form of options, that real, estate men there were trying to get in as mu h area as possible for the purpose of gain. Assistant Secretary Crowell. They, of course, often take options, but we would not regard an option as a commitment in any way. An option we can refuse to exercise. Senator McKellar. How many men are there now being trained? Are there any? Assistant Secretary Crowell* Yes, sir; there are men in the grad¬ uating class at West Point there. I think that is all—some few hun¬ dred. Senator McKellar. In a case like that where you have spent all told a million dollars, and it will probably cost you another million dollars—I am just assuming; I do not know how much it may cost you; it may cost you a hundred thousand dollars, and you may get out of it by paying that much to these owners of this land for their temporary dispossession—but assuming it is another million dollars, would it not be the wise plan with all of the camps that you have in this country where these schools can be put, where you have no present use for them, where you do not know what the policy is going to be in the future, and you can not tell until legislation is passed—would it not be a wise business policy to send some one down there and to pay those people whom you had damaged what is right and fair and take your loss and abandon that project rather than to spend $13,000,000 more to carry it out, when you do not know Avhether you are going to use it after you get through except for temporary purposes? It is impossible to tell at this time whether you will do it. Now, after we have spent all the immense sums that we have spent in this Avar A\ T ould it not be the part of wisdom to cut off $13,000,000 or $12,000,000 doAvn there, because I know it would not cost over a million dollars to pay all the damages in full measure, and they ought to be paid in full measure. That is the Avay it strikes me. I do not want to do anything to hurt Senator Smith’s State in any way or his people in any way, but it does look to me as if it were just simply throAving away $13,000,000. I can not see it in any other light. You have these various other camps—dozens of them and scores of them, and they ought to be used. If there is any neces¬ sity for it, let us do it; use them someAvhere else. We have camps amply large in Senator Knox’s State. Senator Smith of Georgia. Since the Senator has referred to me in connection with this matter, I Avant to say that the officers in charge insist that th y are obliged to lnn'e oA T er a hundred thousand acres of land. The selection of this place was entirely without any suggestion from me. It Avas the result of several commissions of officers who studied what they wanted. Senator McKellar. That Avas for Avar-time purposes and not peace-time purposes. • Senator Smith of Georgia. As a permanent camp it Avas selected. It Avas a permanent training school for this special thing that I do not exactly understand. Senator McKellar. If that is the case, Senator, I doubt very much Avhether the War Department has authority to spend that money 32 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. under a lump-sum appropriation for a permanent camp. The money we appropriated was for war purposes and not for permanent pur¬ poses. Senator Smith of Georgia. What I was saying was this, that in connection with the selection of the location for war purposes they also expressed the view that they ought to select for war purposes a place that would be useful for permanent use as a matter of economy and saving. It is something entirely new to me; it is a matter of revelation. I was with the general commanding there a few days ago at Camp Gordon, and he stated that it was utterly impossible to train to-day for short-arms work and machine-gun work and make them proficient without a very large tract of land. Senator McKellar. If we keep up this kind of thing we had better all get busy with bond issues. Senator Smith of Georgia. I simply wanted to make that reply, as you referred to me in connection with the matter. This selection was purely a military selection, and so far as its continuation is concerned I am in favor of treating it solely as a matter of public policy. Senator Beckham. I may say that as to the West Point selection, I knew nothing about it. Senator Smith of Georgia. They simply astounded me. I said, “ What do you want all this land for; why don’t you cut it ? These people are kicking about your taking their land and making all sorts of a row; why don’t you cut it down ? ” Experts in the Army just astounded me with their discussion and claim of the size and revolution in military affairs from what we had all thought was required in times past. The Chairman. Do you gentlemen want to ask any further ques¬ tions about this particular camp ? Senator Fletcher. Do I understand that the department recom¬ mends carrying out the plans as the}” have already modified it? Secretary Baker. The military men all do. Mr. Crowell and I have discussed it quite apart from our military associates, and while we want to present a united view, as far as possible, both he and I are more doubtful about the Georgia camp than either of the others, purely on the ground that the involvement there is very much less than at the other places, and, as Senator McKellar has pointed out, it would be possible to compensate and settle with these people on the terms they justly ask, and they would have been compensated if the Government had not intervened—at a relatively small outlay. The Chairman. How much money will it take to complete all these projects, and how much will it take to complete the two Ken¬ tucky projects, leaving out the Georgia project? Secretary Baker. You mean the Kentucky and North Carolina projects? The Chairman. Yes; Kentucky and North Carolina. Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell has those figures. The Chairman. I would like to have the amount. First, the total amount to complete all of them, and, secondly, the amount that would be necessary to complete the North Carolina and Kentucky projects alone. Assistant Secretary Crowell. I will furnish you with that. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 33 The Chairman. Will you add that to your testimony? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. Amount to complete (exclusive of land) : Benning_$12, 500, 000 Bragg- 2, 000, 000 Knox- 3, 733, 000 Total_ 17, 233, 000 Camps Bragg and Knox only_ 5, 733, 000 Senator Sutherland. I have some data regarding a certain project and would like to have this left open. I have it in my office. I did not know that there was to be a hearing or I should have brought it here. Senator New. What is Camp Polk? Secretary Baker. Camp Polk was proposed to be at Raleigh, N. C.. and was abandoned. That was my impression. That was intended to be a tank camp at Raleigh and* was abandoned immediately on the signing of the armistice. Senator New. Now, a man who claims to have seen Camp Polk writes to me and speaks of waste there, and disregard of the value of the Government property that there is there. He says: A quartermaster told me that he knew absolutely nothing about any au¬ thority to sell or dispose of any of the lumber on the ground, that there were 5,500,000 feet of lumber there unloaded, and thrown out about the grounds, “just as you would handle cordwood, not even piled and not covered; flooring, ceiling, siding, dressed lumber, and some of it under water, damaged and going to waste.” That bespeaks a condition there, of course, that is expensive to the Government, if it is proved, and it is reported to me by a man who says he vouches for the correctness of it. Secretary Baker. Obviously that ought to be looked into. I am not sure that Camp Polk is the proposed Raleigh camp, but Mr. Crowell will make a note of that. Senator New. He simply speaks of it here as Camp Polk. Secretary Baker. I am not sure that that is the place but we will find out about it. Of course the whole subject of salvaging unused lumber in these abandoned projects is being attempted to be brought together and doubtless it is in process, but this may have been over¬ looked. Senator Fletcher. Mr. Chairman, when do we expect to have a hearing on this Hitchcock bill ? I think that ought to be gone into. Senator New. Why can we not have it right away? The Chairman. Are you ready to proceed with the discussion of the bill for reimbursing the contractors? Secretary Baker. Mr. Chairman, I can stay only until 1 o'clock. This is Cabinet meeting day, but Mr. Crowell knows more about that than I. He has been conferring with the comptroller and the lawyers, and he really has had charge of it. Senator Fletcher. We might have the Secretary’s statement now. Secretary Baker. I shall be glad to do that. Senator Fletcher. Mr. Secretary, will you state your objections to the Hitchcock bill, Senate bill 5261? Secretary Baker. I have this view of it: The important thing is to get »as speedily as possible an adjustment which will be fair to the 99137—19-3 34 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Government in the matter of the amount to be paid, in order that the manufacturers and business men may know exactly how much money they are going to get from the Government and turn their industries and enterprises back into the ordinary peace-time channels. Senator McKellar. Have you examined the Hitchcock bill; and, if so, will you tell us your objections to it? Secretary Baker. Yes. Let me precede that, if you will, by this statement: Immediately upon the signing of the armistice the War Department took the machinery which it already had and enlarged it and changed its purpose so as to make it a demobilizing rather than a mobilizing machinery. The present proposition is this: We have an adjustment commission consisting of three men called from civil life because of their experience in this sort of thing, their eminence and character, and commissioned in the- Army only because it gives an opportunity to pay them. Senator McKellar. Who are they ? Secretary Baker. Mr. Crowell has the list. One is a man named Lehman, from New York, who is a banker—Mr. Crowell will give you the list—one is a former member of the Public Utilities Com¬ mission of Virginia, Mr. Garnett; and Mr. Malone, of New York. It was a commission appointed for the purpose of hearing and, as far as possible, finally determining disagreements between manufac¬ turers and the bureaus of the War Department with which they have contractual relations. The Ordnance Department has scattered around over the United States some 30 district boards. The Quar¬ termaster General’s Department has 8 district boards. They are very carefully selected. They were selected during the progess of the war, and the present working of the business is to have a contract which needs adjustment referred to the district board and have the district board take it up with the contractor as to the amount which they respectively think the Government ought to pay and the terms on which the adjustment ought to be made. That is referred here to Washington for final approval in order that the same principle and theory may run through all these adjustments. If thev can not agree, it is referred to the Board of Adjustment, which will then take up all the facts in the case and try to reach a fair arrangement. That is the organization that is working now all over the LTnited States. Now, the objection I feel to the Hitchcock bill has been that it undertakes to create entirely new machinery, one which has had no familiarity with this and no contact with it at all; a commission to be appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate, which will have to start in and familiarize itself with all this business, and then it is to appoint district commissions, and each in turn will have to familiarize itself with it; and I am afraid by the time the hear¬ ings have been had and cases adjusted by this newly devised ma¬ chinery, which is wholly unfamiliar with the business, that so long a time will have elapsed as to seriously embarrass the business of the country. Senator Sutherland. He could appoint these same men, could be not? Secretary Baker. Yes. Senator Kirby. Not all of them. Senator Johnson of California. But they would constitute just one-third of the commission. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 35 Senator McKellar. But he could appoint civilians, too, if he saw fit. Senator Fletcher. Would there not be unavoidable delay? A board appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate would require two or three months to get organized and after they are appointed and confirmed they still have another month or two to get their machinery in operation. Secretary Baker. I think the business interests of the country would be literally paralyzed by any attempt to set up new machinery. Senator McKellar. A number of business men appeared before the subcommittee on the hearing of this bill, and they thought it was fairer than the other bill, because it allowed them 75 per cent in the event of a difference of opinion, and gave them the privilege of going to the courts for the other. That is one of the things they argued, and this provision about the local boards to take it up was put in at their request and suggestion, and those that appeared be¬ fore us were not dissatisfied with it at all. Secretary Baker. Of course, I was not present and I do not know how far their minds were addressed to the fact that there is already at work a complete and comprehensive machinery against the fair¬ ness of which nobody, as far as I know, has ever made a suggestion. Senator McKellar. I will make a suggestion right now; I shall be very glad to call your attention to it. Take the vehicle division of your Army. It is practically in the hands of the Vehicle Trust, to be perfectly frank about it. The officers are all connected, or a majority of them are connected, directly or indirectly, and I am going to call to your attention—I am sorry I have not got it here now—a circular letter that was sent out to the contractors by Col. Lee, the head of that division, which indicates the kind of settlement that is proposed to be made and how the settlement could be made,, apparently, to the best advantage of the contractors. It is something that you ought to have seen. Secretary Baker. Clearly if the letter implies any sort of disre¬ gard of public interest I ought to see that at once. Senator McKellar. I will send it to you. Secretary Baker. But the remedy- Senator McKellar. Is not to let these people settle with them¬ selves. Secretary Baker. Of course, that is obvious. But the remedy is not to disturb a system which now covers the United States and which knows the business which it has to deal with, by the creation of a new agency which has to begin with the A, B, and C’s of education. Senator McKellar. This same arrangement was carried out in 1898, after the Spanish AVar, with a great deal of success. The Chairman. But the agencies which you have in the War De¬ partment taking charge of these adjustments, have not they been the very agencies which have entered into the contracts and would they not be passing, in a measure, on their own acts? Secretary Baker. They would be passing on their own acts, ex¬ cept they are, of course, all public officers charged with the responsi¬ bility of dealing fairly with the Government, and I know of no basbc for suggesting that they would be unfair 36 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. The Chairman. I do not mean to say that there would be anything unfair, but it is human nature for a man to sustain his own act. Secretary Baker. I think, so far as their own acts are concerned that pertain to the Government, they ought to be sustained. The Chairman. Do you think that is also true where they are illegally committed to the Government? Secretary Baker. I think where it is equitable. The Chairman. Where there was no authority of law for their action ? Secretary Baker. A mere defect of legality, I think, ought not to stand in the way of dealing justly with contractors. Senator McKellar. The Hitchcock bill provides for that very thing- Secretary Baker. Exactly. Senator McKellar. Where there has been any illegality of that kind, to cure it, and where .there has been anything real- Secretary Baker. Oh, if there has been any fraud or misconduct, or anything of that kind. I have no kind of opinion. Senator, about the method. You and I have exactly the same object. What we want to do is to have the Government of the United States deal speedily and justly with the people that it has called into its service. Senator McKellar. I think we will deal a great deal more speedily by this other method, because it will mean a delay- Secretary Baker. I differ from you just as fundamentally as pos¬ sible on the question of speed. I think the machinery as proposed in the Hitchock bill will set up an entirely unfamiliar tribunal, and it will be hearing cases when you and I have retired from public life. Senator McKellar. That was not the case in the Spanish War. Secretary Baker. I do not know what happened then, but I sus¬ pect they are still litigating in the Court of Claims about it. Senator Frelinghuysen. Have you any idea, Mr. Secretary, as to the amount of verbal contracts that have been made ? Secretary Baker. I have not. Senator Frelinghuysen. Have you any idea of the contracts that have been refused by the comptroller and declared invalid by him ? Secretary Baker. I have not; Mr. Crowell has. Senator Johnson of California. Do you mean the number? Senator Frelinghuysen. No; the amount. Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think it was $1,600,000,000 in amount. In number- Senator Frelinghuysen. I do not want the number; I want the amount. Does that include verbal contracts and contracts that have been made by subordinate officers and that have been declared in¬ valid ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not think there are any verbal contracts involved in it. Senator Frelinghuysen. I understand you have from time to time, as necessity demanded, given orders to industries for supplies with¬ out a formal contract, and by letter- Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator Thomas. And by telegram? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And by telephone. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir, and by telephone. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 37 Senator Frelinghuysen. I should like to know the amount of con¬ tracts that have to be validated. Is it a billion and a half or three billions ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. It is one billion six hundred millions and. odd dollars. Senator Frelinghuysen. Then we have to deal with practically $1,600,000,000 of contracts that you need legislation to validate? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator Frelinghuysen. Now, how many contracts are there in the War Department? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Something over 6,000 of those were invalid contracts. There are between twenty and twenty-five thou¬ sand contracts of all kinds. Senator New. And only about 6,000 of them are included in this lot that were invalidated by the ruling of the comptroller? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator Fletcher. So you would have to have a court which would have to inquire into 25,000 contracts? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator Fletcher. It would take two or three years to do it, I suppose ? Senator New. That is just the point I want to make. Are the whole 25,000 contracts involved? Secretary Baker. Senator Hitchcocks bill commits to this board all formal and informal contracts. Senator Frelinghuysen. As to your informal contracts that have been declared invalid, you have been making an effort to settle those through your officers and various agencies of the War Department, have you not? Assistant Secretary Crowell. We have concentrated on the valid contracts, provided we were able to do so. Senator Frelinghuysen. That is, you have settled no valid con¬ tracts as yet ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir. The Chairman. What is that agency in the War Department? Secretary Baker. It is a distributing agency, consisting of district boards scattered throughout the United States, who report their find¬ ings here to Washington for survey, and in the event of disputes or disagreements between the business men and the district board rep¬ resenting the Government, or if the board surveying it here finds it ought to be revised, it goes to the final board of adjustments here, which has been created, consisting of three men. Senator Frelinghuysen. Are they Army officers ? Secretary Baker. They were civilians until they were made Army officers a few months ago. The Chairman. Commissioned for this purpose? Secretary Baker. Selected for this purpose. Senator Weeks. Assuming that there is some validity in the sug¬ gestion made by the chairman that these men are passing on their own acts, and you have machinery now in operation throughout the country doing this work, as far as you know satisfactorily, would it be practicable to continue that machinery and have a reviewing board here in Washington, men not connected with the military service, who have nothing to do with the making of those contracts ? 38 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Secretary Baker. That is exactly what we have, Senator; that is to say, a final board of adjustment which lays down the rule and surveys the whole business is one which has no relation to the mak¬ ing of any contract. They were civilians and called in for this particular purpose. Senator Knox. To what extent are they passing on the contracts? Secretary Baker. What the chairman suggested a moment ago, Senator, is that those in the Ordnance Department w T ho make the contracts would be those w T ho would negotiate the settlement for the dissolution of the contracts. Senator Knox. They were not interested in the contracts; they were the mere instruments of the Government in making the con¬ tracts. Secretary Baker. Exactly. Senator Knox. I do not see anything in that. Secretary Baker. The report that Senator McKellar made was somewhat broader than that. If the condition exists such as he describes, clearly it is one that ought to be corrected no matter what the machinery is. Senator Frelinghuysen. As to these formal contracts, you are in agreement on practically all of them, are you not, with the con¬ tractors? You are proceeding to settle them? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; we are. Senator Frelinghuysen. Then all the problem we have is 6,000 informal contracts? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; the Hitchcock bill covers the formal contracts as well. Senator Frelinghuysen. A method is already provided in the contracts for their settlement. Aassistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. Secretary Baker. But a new agency would be created for apply¬ ing the method. Senator Sutherland. You are comprising, however, the formal contract just as you are the informal contract. You are reducing the amount to be paid? Secretary Baker. Yes, sir. Senator Knox. They will be put on exactly the same footing; the same machinery w T ould apply to all. Secretary Baker. I think so, Senator. Senator Sutherland. With respect to a board composed or mili¬ tary officers, would it not be the idea on the part of business men of the country with whom you had to deal in settlement of these contracts that those men were absolutely under the direction of the war machinery and might possibly not be as fair to them? Secretary Baker. I raised that question, Senator, when the board of adjustments was appointed. We had those three men all chosen from civil life—none of them has any tradition of the military establishment—I raised the question whether it would not be better to let them remain as civilians, so that the business men would not have the feeling, whatever the facts might be, that they were military men and arbitrary. Senator Sutherland. Or under control. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 39 Secretary Baker. I was rather thinking of the fact that they might be arbitrary rather than controlled. I took the matter up with Mr. Max Thelan, of California, upon whose judgment I relied more than anything else—one of the most eminently qualified men in the country for this kind of proposition—and he finally convinced me that it would be better to make military men of them, because they could control all the sources of information through the department. But they are all civilians. Senator Sutherland. They have been until they were commis¬ sioned. Senator Fletcher. What is the condition in regard to the Dent bill? It was reported out of the committee with some amendments and was in the House. I do not know whether it has been acted upon or not. Secretary Baker. It has not been acted upon, but under the rule of the House it is ready for immediate action. Senator Sutherland. You spoke of not having any complaint of any unfairness in the method employed. I sent you yesterday a letter from a large concern in my State that operates in West Virginia and Ohio, to the effect that in making these settlements they have evidently some large outstanding contracts; they were directed to en¬ large their plant and went to a very large expense to do that, and it seems this claims commission was requiring them to first Settle with their subcontractors before they would undertake to make a settle¬ ment with them, and, of course, that settlement is entirely in the air— that is, the settlement which the department will make with these principal contractors, leaving it, of course, largely to the judgment of those men as to what they will get. But precedent to their final settlement they are required to make settlement and incur large additional expense to their subcontractors. Secretary Baker. I assume that what they must mean by that is that they are required to liquidate their relations—not actually them, but liquidate them—so that in dealing with them we will know what the contract relations are, what the principal contractor’s obligations are with his subordinates. Senator Sutherland. They seem to have the idea that these sub¬ contractors would be dealt with by the Government through this claims commission rather than by themselves. Secretary Baker. Doubtless if they prefer that we would under¬ take to help them with the subcontractors. Senator Frelingiiuysen. I have been in conference with a great many men, and took this matter up with the War Department. The New T York Chamber of Commerce, I believe, is very much interested in the bill to provide for the validating of these contracts and their proper settlement. Now, as one of them expressed himself to me the other day: “If Crowell was going to settle all these contracts, I would be perfectly willing to accept his decision, because he is a busi¬ ness man, and I feel I would get justice, but I am afraid that some subordinate officer of the War Department, some young fellow with a captain’s or a lieutenant’s commission, will be empowered to settle this contract, and he will be arbitrary and unjust, and there will be no proper board of review, and I will be compelled to take his find¬ ings, and find myself practically in bankruptcy by the time I get through.” 40 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Secretary Baker. Well, any fear of that kind is very easy to be allayed, because nothing authorizes the department to compel an individual to take any settlement. What we can do is to negotiate a settlement, and if it is not satisfactory to the man he has the final right, of course, to appeal to the Secretary of War and ask that the matter be passed upon by him, as he has control of the matter and can adjust it. Senator Frelinghuysen. And your finding is final? Secretary Baker. No; my finding is not final. Senator Frelinghuysen. Your original bill provides that your finding should be final and conclusive. Secretary Baker. Only final in the matter of settlement, but for the solace of the particular person, whose opinion I entirely share, who spoke to you. Senator Frelinghuysen. I think it is the general impression. Secretary Baker. The entire supervision of this matter is in Mr. Crowell’s hands, and he is proceeding every day, so your friend will have the court of appeal that he elects. Senator New. Of course, the element of time in this matter is as essential as anything else. Secretary Baker. It is most important. I am not at all sure that by great deliberation and long delay we might set up a thoroughly ideal piece of machinery to deal with this situation, but the business interests of this country must have speed, in order to get back to their respective industries. Senator Frelinghuysen. In the meantime, while you are perfect¬ ing that machinery these men would be broke. Secretary Baker. Exactly; that is my fear about it. Senator Frelinghuysen. Would it not be well to let the War De¬ partment go on and settle these contracts, and then if we find there is a great amount of contracts unsettled of in dispute Congress can create a commission to settle those? Secretary Baker. I think that would be entirely feasible. Senator Sutherland. Have you the names of those who constitute this principal commission? Secretary Baker. I gave the names a few moments ago. They are all lieutenant colonels—Lieut. Col. Christopher B. Garnett, formerly chairman of the State commission of public utilities or corporations of the State of Virginia; Lieut. Col. Herbert B. Lehman, a member of the firm of Lehman Bros., bankers, New York; Lieut. Col. Ed¬ ward S. Malone, formerly assistant corporation counsel for the Borough of Queens, N. Y. Senator New. When was that board created ? Secretary Baker. It was shortly before the armistice was signed. Senator New. How had the claims been adjusted prior to that time? Secretary Baker. By the bureaus directly, and this was provided as a supervising machinery. Senator Knox. And the bureaus, while they had charge of this board after it was created, settled all claims with the contractors against the Government? Secretary Baker. Yes, sir. Senator Knox. And as to the millions of dollars of material that you bought, where there was settlement necessary or any of these LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 41 differences of opinion which had to be adjusted, they were adjusted by this machinery? Secretary Baker. Yes, sir. Senator Johnson of California. Including the regional board? Secretary Baker. Yes; as a subordinate agency; and this board grew out of a board that I appointed, I think, way back in the middle of last summer. I wanted to have perfect certainty that the contracts of the department were being formally made and that the same policy was running through them, and I sent to California and got Mr. Max Thelan to come. He was an expert on that subject. He had been a member of the public utilities commission of the State of California. Senator Knox. That is to say, everybody who had a contract with the Government made it with the knowledge that if there was a dif¬ ference of opinion between them and the Government it was to be adjusted by this machinery? Secretary Baker. That is true. Senator McKellar. How did so many of the informal contracts arise? You say that possibly there were twenty-five or thirty thousand ? Secretary Baker. Oh, no; there are 6,000 of them. Senator McKellar. How was it possible that 6,000 of them arose ? Secretary Baker. Many of them are contracts that they waited to make definite by ascertaining the cost figures, and some of them are signed by the wrong person. A large number are signed by the wrong person. There are many informalities of many kinds. Of course, it was a very speedy proposition, Senator; everybody was just as busy as a bee and the writing out of the formal elaborate language of the contract and to get the bonds took time. Senator Sutherland. This does not take into account the con¬ tracts overseas? Secretary Baker. No; it does not take in the contracts overseas. They are numerous also. Senator New. A method has been provided for their adjustment, has it not? Secretary Baker. I understand that Senator Hitchcock had a sepa¬ rate measure covering that; am I right about that? Senator New. I think so. Senator Sutherland. It has not been put into effect as yet ? Secretary Baker. It has not been, but Mr. Stettinius, who returned from abroad a few days ago, was deeply concerned about it. He thought that for a million dollars we could settle all of the informal contracts abroad; but if we delayed it it would be very costly. Senator Sutherland. Is it not very essential that we should take steps with regard to those contracts immediately ? Secretary Baker. I think that has been done. Senator Kirby. We passed a bill upon that subject. Secretary Baker. If a bill—I hardly know what to call it—if the bill now pending in the House, which is the derivative of the bill originally drawn by the Comptroller of the Treasury, modified by various conferences—if that bill were accepted by this committee and passed, it would cover both sides of the question both abroad and here. 42 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Frelinghuysen. Is it not absolutely necessary to settle this billion six hundred million dollars of contracts that have to be validated still? Secretary Baker. Oh, absolutely. Senator Frelinghuysen. You can not go on and settle those con¬ tracts until they are? Secretary Baker. No, sir. Senator Frelinghuysen. And it is consequently necessary that proper legislation be enacted to provide for the immediate settlement either by the War Department or by a commission? Secretary Baker. Well, I would suggest that if Congress is willing to validate these, that is, to cure their informalities, that is a proper way to deal with it. If Congress is willing to cure their informali¬ ties, we will have plenty of time to see whether the machinery of the War Department is working justly in the matter because instantly the process will be started and then if there comes complaint or doubt as to the equity or the speed of the thing, Congress could pro¬ vide new machinery. Senator Beckham. You recommend, then, the bill that has been in¬ troduced in the House as the one that embodies the ideas of the de¬ partment ? Secretary Baker. That embodies the idea of the comptroller and myself and Mr. Stettinius, and all of us who have been conferring about it. Senator Sutherland. Have you a copy of that bill? Secretary Baker. I have not a copy of it. Senator Fletcher. There is nothing unusual in giving the War Department authority to adjust differences. They have such au¬ thority to make the contract, and authority to modify and cancel. Why should they not have the authority to adjust them? There is nothing unusual in that? Secretary Baker. Oh no; that is a power we have with regard to all formal contracts. Senator Fletcher. The same as is given to the Navy in the naval bill? The Chairman. Do you desire to ask Mr. Crowell any further questions, or do you desire to make a further statement, Mr. Crowell ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Only that the process is now under way. I believe by the present means we can settle or substantially settle these outstanding contracts before the commission could get started on them. We propose to settle those by June. Senator Knox. I agree with the Secretary of War that if you cure the informalities that is about all that is necessary for us to do now, and then if you find difficulty either as to the attitude of this board toward the contractor, or for any other reason it calls for the crea¬ tion of a separate body to adjust them, or new authority be conferred upon the War Department, we can take it up when that contingency arises. The Chairman. Are there any further questions to be asked Mr. Crowell ? If not, there are some gentlemen here and I presume they have been invited to make statements. (Secretary Baker and Assistant Secretary Crowell thereupon withdrew.) LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 43 STATEMENT OF MR. JOSEPH H. DEFREES, OF CHICAGO. The Chairman. You may state your occupation. Mr. Defrees. My function here is member of the War Service Executive Committee of American Industries. A section of the committee is here and also a special committee appointed a few days ago in New York at the meeting of some 300 of the war-service chairmen of the various industries nationally organized for service in connection with the war. That meeting in New York was the result of a prior meeting of all the war-service committees of the American industries that have been organized at Atlantic City early in December, some four or five thousand individuals involved in this committee, but it should not be understood that they represent merely themselves. Each com¬ mittee represented that industry nationally organized, and the chair¬ men of the committee met in New York on last Friday and Satur¬ day, representing some 300 persons, representing the industry na¬ tionally organized, and they appointed a special committee here of gentlemen with regard to this matter of informal contracts. * The committee was appointed without knowledge as to how the gentlemen who were appointed were interested personally in the subject, but appointed more especially with regard to the repre¬ sentative character. I have learned by talking with them since that only one or two of them are especially affected. Their interest is as members of the American industry in the broad general ques¬ tion. The committee was only able to get here this morning, and perhaps it is not as well qualified to discuss the matter as it might be had it had a longer time to determine the composite of their ideas. The Chairman. Have you seen Senate bill 5261 ? Mr. Defrees. Oh, yes, sir. The Chairman. And the Dent bill ? Mr. Defrees. Oh, yes, sir. The Chairman. Those are the particular matters that we are con¬ sidering. Mr. Defrees. Yes; I quite understand that; but there are certain features—in fact, all the features that have been involved in the discussion that I have heard Secretary Barker discuss here—they have quite fixed opinions about. They feel sure it would be most un¬ fortunate if the matter of adjustment of these informal contracts were taken out of the War Department. They feel that it would resu lt—by reason of the unfamiliarity of the people who made the figures upon which the adjustment had to be recommended—in long delays and where speed is of the utmost consequence. They are informed that there is $1,600,000,000 involved in these informal con¬ tracts. A very large part of the liquid working capital of the industries of the country is involved in these contracts, and it is, in that sense, in the possession of the Government and not being used in industry. Bankers are becoming more or less nervous; there is pressure there. They feel that if there is much delay, that there may be, and certainly would, a great stoppage of revival of indus¬ try on the part of these various units in peace work, because they 44 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. would not have the capital or they would not have the courage to proceed. They feel also that they would not be able to afford work to the laboring men and the soldiers who are returning as they would be if thej' made earlier adjustment. Concerning the cost which is involved—which I would judge from your questions you are all equally alive to—they are convinced it is important. They feel that neither the Dent bill nor the Hitchcock bill affords a completely satisfactory solution. They have had an opportunity to examine the bill which has been forwarded to the chairman of this committee and a similar committee of the House, and a formal bill by the War Industries Board—perhaps not acting officially, but it was transmitted by Mr. Baruch. It is broader in its provisions and practically effects what Senator Knox spoke of a few minutes ago, the validating of existing informal contracts and leaves with the War Department their adjustment. The Hitchcock bill, if you are to go into details, I think you would find is not sufficiently broad in its provisions to care for a numerous class of these contracts. It seems to me tremendously important that the language of any legislation validating the informal contract should be broad enough to give discretion to some board in the War* Department to do equity, because now they have these regional or¬ ganizations scattered all over the country. These contracts can not be settled by this top body which Secretary Baker spoke of, but there will be expedition accomplished, because in each region there is prac¬ tically a civilian board—it was a civilian board of gentlemen who were familiar with conditions—and they would be able at once to take up and make a report to the central body here, which would result in an adjustment. Senator McKellar. That is precisely what is required in the Hitchcock bill. What objection have you to the method provided for there ? Mr. Defrees. The objection is this: The Hitchcock bill gives the commission authority to divide the country into zones, one or more, and to create a commission in each district, but it is not related to the existing agencies which have familiarity or acquaintance with the work or acquaintance with the conditions which would bring about early adjustment. You must remember that the Government has kept in most of these plants that have had large Government con¬ tracts its own officers and kept track of costs. They know just what the situation is, and they know what it costs to contract to do this and that and the other thing. It has a vast quantity of material and capacity to make adjustments which no new agency could by any possibility have. Senator Sutherland. Would not that information be also avail¬ able to any other commission ? Mr. Defrees. It would be available to the other commission, but you can readily understand that the new commission has got to reeducate itself. With respect to this situation these new agencies have not an acquaintance with the individual contractors; they have not the vision and they do not know. Senator Sutherland. That would depend upon the personnel of the commission somewhat, would it not? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 45 Senator McKellar. The present commission, as I understood the Secretary, was appointed about 60 days ago, and its work has been stopped by reason of not having valid contracts to operate on. Mr. Defrees. I do not know that it has been stopped. Is that •correct, that it has been stopped? Senator McKellar. Are they proceeding with these invalid con¬ tracts now ? Mr. Defrees. Oh, no; the valid contracts. Assistant Secretary Crowell. They are working on the valid con¬ tracts now. Mr. Defrees. Here is another element that it seems to me you gen¬ tlemen would want to take into account: A contractor who, by rea¬ son of the exigencies of the war, has been induced through the direct order of some official of the War Department, or even of the War Industries Board, to go ahead and do things in the execution of his contract without waiting for a formal contract, and who has not yet got his formal contract, is, of course, entitled to the same sort of adjustment that he would have had if his formal contract had been executed. There is no reason why the man who happened to get his formal contract signed on the 10th of November should be in any better situation than the man who failed to get his contract— if the other man went ahead in good faith. Now, the War Department has worked out very carefully con¬ sidered provisions of settlement and adjustment which have been in¬ troduced into the formal contracts that have been made in the last several months. They are supposed to be just, both to the depart¬ ment and to the contractor, and they were made when the people were at arm’s length in so far as industry was at arm’s length during this war period; in other words, they were not forced into the con¬ tract. Now, it seems to me that every man who accepted one of those moral contracts is entitled to have it canceled upon the same basis and upon the same terms that he had a right to expect would be employed in the formal contract which would eventually come to him. Senator McKellar. There is no difference among the committee at all with respect to that. Mr. Defrees. I know there is not; or at least I understand there is not. How are you going to accomplish that? If you have one body, namely, the" body now in the War Department, settling the formal contracts and another body adjusting the informal contracts, what will be the result? Senator McKellar. That is just what the Hitchcock bill does not do. It provides that both of them- Mr. Defrees. I quite understand that, too; but I did not suppose that was intended. I knew it was broad enough to cover that. Senator McKellar. That was intended; yes, sir. Mr. Defrees. Then, it seems to me that the intention goes further than the business interests of the country see any real purpose in. It seems to me the adjustment ought to be made by the men who are familar with the contract with this top body, or supervising body, which has already been created. Senator McKellar. Do you understand that these are men who are not familiar with it at all, as Secretary Baker has just pointed out 46 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. awhile ago; that they were selected about 60 days ago for the purpose of having an outside body that was wholly unfamiliary with it ? Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir. I did not make myself clear. It is true that this supervisory body, I understand from Mr. Baker, and I have always understood, is a comparatively new body; it is judicial in a large sense, but there are agencies through the zones. I know the agency appointed in Chicago is splendidly representative of business and finance and of the government. For instance, Mr. John Mitchell, who is president of the Illinois Trust & Savings Bank there, and whose name stands for as much as anybody’s, has been introduced into the committee there to operate with Mr. Bussell, who has been regional director in times gone by of the Ordnance Department, and another gentleman whose name escapes me for the moment. There are two others, I think, there. Those men are busying themselves and are having the benefit of Mr. Mitchell’s judgment, who has not had the benefit of this detail, in bringing about an adjustment of the formal contracts—is not that true? Assistant Secretary Croavell. Yes, sir. Mr. Defrees. Now there is a vast deal of experience and knowledge which not only the Government is entitled to but the industries of the country are entitled to in accomplishing these adjustments. It is fair enough that the supervising body should not be influenced one way or another, but should be a judicial body. That is accomplished by the War Department’s plan and it is also accomplished by the Hitchcock bill, but under the War Department’s plan these zone boards make investigation and make tentative adjustments and send on their reports to this central body, and it is all subject to their approval. That is all fair enough, but it means speedy action. Now, the Hitchcock bill, it seems to me, if we go into that, is not broad enough to cover very many cases that exist. I could ask some of the gentlement here on this committee to speak of cases of which they are advised, that would show that that is true. For instance, in the first section of the Hitchcock bill it only attempts to validate, and it is a left-handed validation, Senator, is it not? The orders and contracts made would be sanctioned by an officer legally qualified and authorized to give a formal contract. It only validates such contracts. as have not yet proceeded to actual execution, but they must have been brought about through the order or direction of an officer whose legal authority was such that if his name had been signed to a con¬ tract it would have been a valid contract. For instance, you will remember the language—I can read it to you if you desire me- Senator Kirby. It is not necessary; the committee understands that. Mr. Defrees. I suppose so. Then, again, you provide that in such instances, instead of adjusting the contract with regard to the prices which were agreed upon you adjust them with regard to fair value; in other words, you put upon this board the whole burden which has already been accomplished by various agencies of the War Depart¬ ment, which included the War Industries Board in a sense—the remaking of contracts. You do not fix as a measure, wherever it is applicable, the prices which the contract contemplated; but, now that this gentleman has gone ahead upon the faith of the prices, you have provided legislation which will require that to be subject to review. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 47 You have given your committee, if you allow it to pass in that shape, a job that they will be at when their grandchildren will be old men, if they should live that long, because they have to qualify themselves to ascertain a fair price in each instance. It is not fair that a man who got his contract on the 11th day of November, signed, should have one basis of adjustment and a man who didn’t happen to get it signed should have another basis of adjustment and have the question of the fairness of the price subject to review in that fashion. It seems to me you could protect the Government, if any contract had been fraudulently made, by inserting a provision to apply to contracts where there was fraud. But where a contract has been made without fraud and the price is agreed upon it fails to be efficient merely because the proper officer may not have signed it. For instance, there is one contract which we are advised of now where the contract should have been signed by Gen. MacRoberts. The contract was entirely formal in language, it is all covered, but Col. Watson, who was operating with Gen. McRoberts, I understand, signed Gen. McRoberts’s name to that contract, and under the ruling of the comptroller that is held to be an invalid contract. Now, under the Hitchcock bill, if I understand it correctly, that contract would be validated, possibly; but even if it is, then the duty of your board is to ascertain whether or not the prices agreed upon in that contract are the prices which the Government should pay. Senator McKellar. It is only in case of cancellation ? Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. The language of the first section is as follows: The fact that any such contract or order or agreement has not been made in the form or signed in the manner required by law shall not invalidate, the same if it was entered into in good faith and lacked only the sanction of a contract in legal form. Now, the McRoberts case, which you cite, would be absolutely validated, and if there was an agreement as to price it would be absolutely carried out. It is only in cases of cancellation that the committee would take into consideration the rights and equities of the parties, just as any committee would do, no matter what com¬ mittee it is. Mr. Defrees. But we are presupposing that all these contracts either have been or should be canceled, are we not? That is all we are talking about, as I understand it ? They are all going to be can¬ celed; none of them is going to be carried to completion except as they are already completed, as I understand. Therefore, section 1 and section 2 apply, and in section 2 you say— That in all cases as above included it shall be lawful to make payments under the terms of the agreements or orders so made or given to the extent that performance thereof has been made or supplies thereunder have heretofore been received and accepted by the United States, provided that payment in such cases shall not exceed the fair value of the supplies or materials delivered to and accepted by the United States. You say in section 1— Nothing herein provided, however, shall be held to validate any contract, order, or agreement given or made by an officer or agent of the War Depart¬ ment not legally authorized or qualified to give a formal legal contract, nor to permit an officer to make such contract with any company, corporation, or firm in which he has, or had, at the time, directly or indirectly any interest. 48 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. I do not see how the instance where Col. Watson signed the contract would be valid under that, but let us suppose it was. Then we come to section 2, and section 2 says— Sec. 2. That in all cases as above included it shall be lawful to make pay¬ ments under the terms of the agreements or orders so made or given to the extent that performance thereof has been made or supplies thereunder have heretofore been received and accepted by the United States, provided that pay¬ ment in such cases shall not exceed the fair value of the supplies or materials delivered to and accepted by the United States. Now, I submit that the contract price would have nothing to do with it under those circumstances, but again there would be the question of the ascertainment of fair value, and you have given your committee more to do than it will get through with while we are alive, if it exercises the function given to it by that provision. Then again, it only covers orders or contracts. Now, there are agreements, many of them depending upon requests; many times there are letters where they have gone ahead and done things and spent thousands of dollars. Then again great plants have been con¬ structed based upon the understanding that there should be adjust¬ ment made in respect to it. The War Industries Board has brought about many things, acting as sympathetic agencies with the War Department, where it has made the statement that the contractors would be protected. I have been present at a great many. I have been down here a great deal during the last two or three years, and I have been present a great many times at interviews with section heads of the War Industries Board, and there has not been a time when the committee representing the industry—the war service com¬ mittees—have not acceded always to whatever the section head deter¬ mined after conference, should be done by the industry in respect to changing classes of operations in respect to broadening that class of operation in respect to restrictions, and taking on obligations with the expenditure of money without waiting for the formal contract, and they are not provided for here. This bill should also cover agreements and requests connected with the prosecution of the war, including the acquisition of real estate, the acquisition or use of facilities, furnishing supplies, materials, or equipments. Nothing is covered in that respect except as to a direct contract for supplies of materials. There are a great many instances which are not covered. It seems to me the Government’s obligation is just as broad as its requests upon these people, and while there ought to be the greatest pains taken not to permit advantage to be taken of the Government, and that, of course, is to be expected, there should be a power some place broad enough to settle equities, and the legislation should not be so rigid as to leave no such discretion in the body that has the duty or responsibility of making the adjustment. Senator McKellar. What would you suggest in section 2 to make it right? What is your view as to that? Mr. Defrees. I am not in favor of the bill at all, but I can suggest things which I think would make it do possibly. I would add this: Such price as may be provided by the order, contract, or agreement shall be deemed to be the fair value in all cases where its application may be practicable and equitable. Senator McKellar. That is in addition to section 2 ? Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 49 t j ena ^. 0r k- NOX * Are y° u in favor of the proposed bill of the War Industries Board; does that cover your ideas ? Mr. Defrees. I think it does absolutely, with the addition of one or two words, and I can give you those words. Senator Knox. Has the committee ever been furnished with copies of that bill ? Mr. Defrees. I have them here; I can furnish them to you. Senator Knox. It seems to me a very simple and direct act. Mr. Defrees. It is absolutely efficient, Senator, and nothing else that has been offered, in my judgment, covers the situation. Senator Beckham. You do not mean the House bill, do you? Mr. Defrees. No, sir; I do not, and I am not prepared to discuss it in detail. Here is a copy of the War Industries bill. There are certain small amendments in it which I think ought to be made, and to which I can call your attention. Senator Kirby. Was the War Industries Board’s bill that is sug¬ gested here drafted after consultation with the same agencies that drafted the bill that has been furnished to Mr. Dent in the House, and that was originally furnished here, or do you know ? Mr. Defrees. Well, I do not know; I expect it was. Senator Kirby. The department has had this matter under con¬ sideration ; they have asked us for relief. They have asked it in the particular form of the bill presented to Mr. Dent’s committee in the House and the one brought here. The Senate committee has intro¬ duced another bill that has been recommended. Now, has this board that proposed this bill been in consultation with the same agencies that drafted the other bill? Mr. Defrees. I think those agencies are entirely familiar with the War Industries bill, and I believe—they are here to speak for them¬ selves—that I am justified in saying that they regard the bill as suffi- > ciently broad to cover the principles that they think should obtain. Senator I£irby. Then, do they further regard the bill as sufficiently limited to reasonably protect the Government, as the other might have been ? Mr. Defrees. I think they do; but the gentlemen are here and can speak for themselves. Senator Kirby. That is what I was driving at. It seems to me there ought to have been some sort of concerted action between these two agencies of the Government in their recommendations here. Mr. Defrees. I can tell you very well what little I know about it. I know that the Chamber of Commerce of the United States was very much concerned about this situation and was not satisfied with the bill which came doAvn here and which is known as the Dent bill. Representatives of the chamber talked with various gentlemen of the War Industries Board and men in the War Department about what they regarded should be covered. Those gentlemen talked back and the principles governing this War Industries Board bill are the same as that; and then it came down through transmittal by Mr. Baruch, and We got copies of it and studied it and conferred with the gentlemen who are responsible for it. We are advised— not technically, not officially—that those in the War Department who had to do with this thing feel that the bill is a proper bill and will cover the situation, and the War Industries Board people feel that is what ought to be done. 99137—19-4 50 LAND FOE ABTTLLERY TRAINING FIELDS. The Chairman. Let me ask you a question. There are a number of people in the West who have been interested in the development of chrome potash and other minerals. Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And based on the invitations of the Government at least, and possibly on representations of authorized agents of the Government, they have gone ahead and at considerable expense have developed chrome fields and potash fields and other places of production. Now, all of those commodities have gone down prac¬ tically to nothing and they have them on hand. Is this bill of yours broad enough to protect that kind of people ? Mr. Defrees. I would not want to answer that question without having it definitely in mind. I should think it would depend upon the form in which the request or engagement was made from the Government. If they were merely stimulated as to the importance of the industry, that would be one thing; if they were requested directly by proper Government agency to go ahead and make the expenditure to produce these materials, then it would come within the provisions of the bill. The Chairman. It was for the stimulation of the production of the minerals—to stimulate them to go out into those fields and de¬ velop them. Mr. Defrees. There are a good many cases of that kind, I suppose, but I imagine they would not be covered by this bill. Senator Hitchcock. I would like to ask you a question. You seem to say in the first place that the language of section 1 is not broad enough to cover the case in which a manufacturer had proceeded upon an informal order from the Government. Now, the language not only includes contracts, but it includes orders- Mr. Defrees. Yes. Senator Hitchcock. What could be more general in its terms than that word “ orders ” ? Mr. Defrees. I did not make myself clear, Senator; section 1 in a left-handed way—I want to still say that, because if the bill is to be considered probably I would like to talk further about it—it says that it shall not invalidate certain classes of contracts; that is, orders or agreements which are invalid merely because they have not been properly executed, but it says— Nothing herein provided, however, shall be held to validate any contract, order, or agreement given or made by an officer or agent of the War Depart¬ ment not legally qualified or authorized ta give a formal legal contract. Now, a great many of these engagements, for instance, I under¬ stand that under the ruling of the comptroller in the instance of Col. Watson, who signed the contract, he was not authorized tech¬ nically to make that contract but he was the officer of the Govern¬ ment who was actually functioning in bringing about such contracts. Senator Hitchcock. Now, that is not the point I am making. I understood you to say that this phraseology here was not sufficient to cover the case where a manufacturer had proceeded simply upon verbal request or order from the Government. Mr. Defrees. No; I think it would. Senator Hitchcock. You think it would? Mr. Defrees. Let me finish my sentence, please—if it refers to materials or supplies. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 51 Senator Hitchcock. Yes. Mr. Defrees. It is limited to that. Senator Hitchcock. That is what w T e want to limit it to. Mr. Defrees. Well, do you? , Senator Hitchcock. Yes. We do not want to bring real estate into this; there is no emergency with regard to real estate. Now, there is an emergency with regard to contractors who have gone on and had to manufacture and acquire materials and have changed their plants. That we want to cure. This is emergency legislation to cure the matter of supplies. The matter of real estate is an entirely separate matter which we want to take up in a totally separate way, and it should not be mixed up with supplies, in our opinion. Mr. Defrees. I had the idea that it was putting the War Depart¬ ment and tliereb}^ the Government of the United States in a moral position with respect to its responsibilities. A man who has spent millions of dollars based upon contracts, and a large part of the sum being borrowed on informal contracts by the Government, may be broke long before you get this long-term legislation that we are discussing. Senator Hitchcock. We feel that the acquisition of real estate, which the department has undertaken through condemnation pro¬ ceedings and in various other ways, can be treated separately. We want this legislation to protect manufacturers who have been manufacturing supplies for the Government, and I still am of the opinion that the language of section 1 is broad enough to cover all cases in which, whether there has been a formal contract or a verbal contract, we would like to have you point out wherein the deficiency is that you seem to adhere to. Mr. Defrees. In the first place it only covers orders or contracts, if it is to be construed literally. Now, there are a great many instances of requests—a letter requesting a man to do this or that, and action being taken on it, it makes an implied contract. The language “ orders or contracts ” ought to be broadened even to cover your idea, in my judgment. It ought to be orders, contracts, or agreements, ex¬ press or implied, and those that have been for supplies. Senator Hitchcock. If I should call up on the telephone my grocer and ask him to send up a pound of sugar, is not that an order for the sugar? Mr. Defrees. It is an order for the sugar if he accepts it; yes. Senator Hitchcock. We cover that by the use of the word “ order.” Mr. Defrees. Yes; it may be; but to follow up the answer to your question, if you look at the last end of the section you will see it only validates contracts. It says “nothing herein provided, how¬ ever, shall be held to validate any contract, order, or agreement given or made by an officer or agent of the War Department not legally qualified or authorized to give a formal legal contract.” Senator Hitchcock. I will say that the criticism is justified, and with the representative of the National Chamber of Commerce yes¬ terday I agreed, as far as I was concerned, to accept the language providing that where a superior officer had directed an inferior officer to sign a contract in his name, that that should be an accept¬ ance. and that amendment will be offered on the floor of the Senate. Mr. Defrees. Of course, that phrase ought to go out, if it is to cover what you are talking about. 52 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Hitci-icock. No; we think it ought to stay in. Senator Knox. Ought not the test of that to be whether the Gov¬ ernment got the benefit of it? That would be the test of liability. Senator Hitchcock. In many cases the Government has received no benefit at all from these things.’ Expenses have been incurred, and the Government has received nothing. You can not make that the test. The Chairman. You were speaking of land. There is nothing in the proposal of this gentleman with reference to land. It provides, In the first section, third paragraph: And whenever, prior said November 12, 1918, the War Department, through its officers or agents, has taken possession of any land, or whenever the owner or holder of any land has made preparations at the request of the War Department, its officers, or agents, to turn over the same to the War Department, and no valid contract has been made with respect thereto, then the Secretary of War, if he finds that the public interest does not require the possession or occupancy of such land by the Government, is authorized to make compensation. Not for the land itself, but for the use. Do you see any objection to that? Senator Hitchcock. I think something of that sort ought to be done, but not in this bill, because that would cover the case of these camps, these rifle ranges. I do not think we ought to mix the two propositions. I think we should confine it here to an emergency bill to pay these men their money within a year, or 75 per cent of it, and not involve it in a mixture with real estate considerations. The Chairman. Take the Georgia case, for instance, where the Government may conclude to turn back that Benning project. In that event they would want power to compensate these men for the use of the land. That is all this does. Senator Hitchcock. I think the committee ought to investigate these cases and pass on them. This is an emergency matter. We have a couple of billions of dollars of contracts that are an emergency, and the sooner we get rid of them and compromise them the better. We ought to create this one tribunal for that purpose. The Chairman. The committee will now take a recess until 2 o’clock. (Accordingly the committee took a recess until 2 o’clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. The committee reassembled at the expiration of the recess, at 2.15 o’clock p. m., Senator George E. Chamberlain (chairman), presiding. The Chairman. Gentlemen, we will proceed. Judge Defrees, you were still testifying when we took the recess. STATEMENT OE MR. JOSEPH H. DEFREES—Resumed. Mr. Defrees. I was discussing this bill. The Chairman. Now, you had in your hand, at the time you were making your statement here, a printed form of bill, but I understand that these gentlemen who made contracts with the Government are just as well satisfied, or possibly better satisfied with the bill which w r as prepared by the War Industries Board. 'LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 53 Mr. Defrees. Both were prepared by the War Industries Board, and the difference is that this typewritten one here, of which I have copies, has additional words in it which make it more certain that it will cover the various classes of informal contracts. I had expected to call attention to that, and that if it met with the approval of the committee we would send it to them with those changes in. The Chairman. We do not want any confusion about the two bills. Senator Beckham. The typewritten bill is not exactly similar to this small one which I have in my hand. Mr. Defrees. The second one is an improved and amended form of the printed bill. I have several copies with me. The Chairman. We will have it printed. Mr. Defrees. The differences are not many. The Chairman. Do you know how many contracts are involved under this bill—how much money ? Mr. Defrees. I only know from statements made to us by re¬ sponsible people in the War Industries Board. We have not under¬ taken to find from the industries a list of all of the contracts. The Chairman. Do you know the organizations- Mr. Defrees. I understand the amount is $1,600,000,000. The Chairman. Do you know the form of the organization which it is contemplated by the War Department shall adjust these matters? Mr. Defrees. Yes. The Chairman. Could you describe it to the committee ? Mr. Defrees. I could describe it broadly and generally; yes. The Chairman. Please do so. Mr. Defrees. The War Department already had the United States divided into zones in which it had officers functioning for the execu¬ tion of contracts. They had in the plants of most of the large con¬ tractors their own cost accounting officers and supervisors, and rela¬ tions to them, and in each of these zones there was a production officer that was assigned to them. As I understand the War Depart¬ ment’s plan, they have this overhead body which they have created, which is not related to the Contract Board, which Secretary Baker described, but under them they are using in each of these zones these production officers and a civilian of high character who has not been connected with the matter at all, like John J. Mitchell, of Chicago, who is president of one of the banks there. He had nothing to do with it until the settlements commenced to be made, and a representa¬ tive of the public otherwise, whose name, in this particular instance, I have forgotten, and another officer of the Government who had to do with production. The Chairman. That is four in each zone? Mr. Defrees. Yes, sir; four and sometimes five. Those men have 1 a familiarity with respect to the conditions of each contract, formal and informal. Those gentlemen have no authority to make con¬ tracts. They were production people. It is the procurement divi¬ sion of the War Department that made the contracts, and after a contract was made, either informal or formal, advices with respect to it went to each zone, which had to do with seeing that the contract was accomplished in accordance with the terms of the contract and’ that the production was made in time. They put representatives in, each of the plants of the large contractors. 54 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Now, those people are settling and adjusting all formal contracts, most of which have in them cancellation clauses—I have copies of them here—which had provisions providing for the terms of cancel¬ lation, and they are settling those contracts consistently with those terms. Now, my understanding is that in the informal contracts, where they are validated or ought to be validated, that these same f unctions will be used, but that it is all subject to the approval of this super¬ visory board or body. That is my understanding. The Chairman. That is, in Washington? Mr. Defrees. That is in Washington. The Chairman. And they are men who have not been connected either with the procurement of the goods or the execution of the con¬ tracts? Mr. Defrees. Neither one. The Chairman. They are civilians, I think the Secretary of War has stated, who have been commissioned in the Army. Mr. Defrees. I do not know any of them. I did not know any of them until to-day. The Chairman. Could you tell who they are? Mr. Defrees. I think Mr. Crowell could. The Chairman. Could you tell us, Mr. Crowell ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. You mean the personnel of the ad¬ justment board? The Chairman. The adjustment board here. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Lieut. Col. Garnett, Lieut. Col. Leh¬ mann, and Lieut. Col. Malone. The Chairman. These gentlemen were just recently commissioned in the Army? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think just recently. The Chairman. Why was it necessary to commission them? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I do not know. The Secretary went into that. The Chairman. He did not say why? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir; he stated to some extent. Senator Fletcher. What is the difference between the bill you are now advocating and the Dent bill as it is reported to the House ? Mr. Defrees. I have not read the Dent bill for some time, and I would hesitate to speak of it offhand. All that remains in my mind is that it was not broad enough to accomplish the proper results. Senator Fletcher. It was amended after it was introduced— amended in the committee—and I suppose in accordance with the recommendation of the department, and perhaps of your organiza¬ tion. I do not know, of course, about that. The Chairman. The Dent bill, Mr. Crowell, was prepared by the War Industries Board, was it not? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, Mr. Chairman; the Dent bill was prepared by the members of the House Committee on Military Affairs, and it differs from, the bill now under discussion in a number of ways. The Dent bill as it stands to-day is not ample and does not cover all the cases. Another large difference is that it provides that all of these contracts after settlement, but before payment, shall be posted in Congress for 10 days before payment is made. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 55 Senator Beckham. Do you prefer, Mr. Crowell, this bill that has been prepared by Mr. Baruch over the so-called Dent bill ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. This bill as it now stands is not ac¬ ceptable to the War Department, because it does not include foreign Governments, but if the words “and foreign Governments” are added after the word “corporation” this bill would be acceptable. Senator Beckham. What do you mean by “ this bill ”? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The War Industries Board bill. The Chairman. The one we are now discussing? Senator Beckham. That is your objection to it—that it does not cover foreign Governments? Assistant Secretary Crowell. It does not cover the case of our contracts with foreign Governments. The Chairman. That is, the Dent bill or this bill does not cover foreign Governments ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; the Dent bill does cover for¬ eign Governments. Senator Beckham. With that provision in you would prefer it to the Dent bill? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The War Department thinks either bill would be acceptable. Senator Fletcher. You mean the Dent bill as amended? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The Dent bill as amended and this bill as amended so as to cover foreign Governments. The Chairman. Could you insert in there, Judge Defrees, the language which would make it broad enough to cover these foreign Governments ? Mr. Defrees. I could in a little time. I would not want to do it at the moment. I could step outside and return it to you in a moment. The Chairman. I should like to have that amendment made. Mr. Defrees. I would suggest, if it is not inconsistent with the emergency, that we ask the cooperation of Mr. Stettinius and Mr. Cutcheon in respect to just what that language should be, because they have both been abroad and have just come back here and have given this thing intense study. I should like to telephone to Mr. Cutcheon and have him here. The Chairman. If you will take that up this afternoon and let us have it to-morrow or the next day, that will be satisfactory. Assistant Secretary Crowell. I would state what they would sug¬ gest. I know T what they have in mind. With the three words added the bill is acceptable to them. The Chairman. What three words? Assistant Secretary Crowell. In the third line, where the word “ corporation ” occurs, we should like to add the words “ and foreign Governments.” Mr. Defrees. If I might be excused just a moment, some of my as¬ sociates on the committee thought that perhaps I had not made it clear to your committee how broadly representative our committee is in indorsing this so-called War Industries Board bill, and also in impressing upon you our representation does not include merely contractors who are affected, but it includes practically the entire industry of the United States, in that at Atlantic City there were over 400 industries represented by war-service committees who had 56 LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. been authorized to represent those industries, nationally organized. The resolutions they passed there on this subject are covered by the War Industries Board bill. In New York last Friday and Saturday over 300 of the chairmen of those war-service committees were there. The whole 400 did not get there, but the matter was discussed by those chairmen as to what action should be taken, and a formal mo¬ tion was passed after discussion indorsing this bill by those gentle¬ men, and this committee was appointed for the purpose of urging upon you the passage of this bill, in order to enable the Govern¬ ment to carry out fully and broadly its moral obligations, thus enabling the people who were educated with respect to the Govern¬ ment’s obligations to function in respect to that. Our committee was much impressed by a statement of one of the Senators here a while ago, that the thing to do is to validate these contracts. You can later, if you see fit, change the existing ma¬ chinery in the War Department. There is to-day existing machinery in the War Department which can go ahead immediately, and it is the same machinery which must go ahead unless you stop it with respect to the contracts formally made. It is highly important that these contracts should be validated and that the Government should not use narrow language, because the financial interests involved are so great that serious results may occur unless the power of the board which is to deal with these matters is sufficiently broad to enable them to carry out these matters as they should be carried out. Those are the principles which are involved in this War Industries Board bill. The Chairman. Take an industry, for instance, that has made one of these contracts without authority of law, and it has gone ahead and produced the commodity just as though they had a valid con¬ tract. That may have taken all of their money and exhausted their credit. Would the validation of these contracts strengthen their credit with the banking institutions? Mr. Defrees. It would, indeed. It would settle the question. The banking institutions would wait then. The Chairman. That is, if they knew these contracts were vali¬ dated ? Mr. Defrees. Even if they were validated and they had a chance for adjustment. Of course you can not adjust the contracts by your bill, because still the board or body that had power must operate, but at the same time the banks would wait. The Chairman. In other words, it would strengthen these indus¬ trial firms? Mr. Defrees. Yes; they would go ahead with confidence, because they would know that there is a place where their rights can be settled and ascertained speedily. That is the great question that confronts us. Senator Beckham. Is that all the War Industries Board bill undertakes to do—to validate these informal contracts? Mr. Defrees. That is practically all that it does. The Chairman. It provides a method of adjustment. Mr. Defrees. No; it provides that the Secretary of War shall ad¬ just them; that is what it does. Senator McKellar. It does not add to his authority with refer¬ ence to them. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 57 Mr. Defrees. I does not give him any greater authority than he would have if they had proceeded to formal contracts. If this board acts, it will consider these contracts just as though they were formal contracts. The Chairman. We had a conference with the Secretary, and he said that the functionaries that are going to adjust these matters are the same ones he had established already. Senator McKellar. What is your attitude on the War Industries Board plan, the little pamphlet bill- The Chairman. That is not the one we are talking about. The one we are discussing—the War Industries Board bill—is the type¬ written one. Senator McKellar. Yes; but what is your attitude on that? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I have seen only the printed bill. I have not seen the typewritten bill. Mr. Defrees. I can call your attention, in two minutes, to the differences. There is the printed bill [handing bill to Assistant Secretary Crowell], and if you will look at the lead pencil marks on it, you will see just what changes there are. The Chairman. They are very few? Mr. Defrees. They are very few. They do not change the purport of the bill. They were used—these words that make the changes— because some thought they were necessary to make more certain the spirit of the bill. Lawyers, I notice, like to use the same word two or three times. The Chairman. I have noticed that. Senator Fletcher. Yes; sometimes there are 12 men on a jury, and they have to say a thing 12 times in order to get it before the full jury. Mr. Defrees. For instance, they have added the words “order” and “ request.” Some gentlemen wanted “ order ” in there. I do not see that it makes any difference, myself. I consider a request the same as an order. The Chairman. Are there any others of your committee that de¬ sire to discuss the matter ? Mr. Defrees. No, sir; and we are very much obliged to you. The Chairman. Mr. Secretary, do you desire to make any further statement ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I am able to answer the question Senator McKellar just asked. Of the two bills, this bill is accept¬ able to the War Department, provided the same change is made, which will include foreign governments. The Chairman. That has been inserted in the copy which I have. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. The Chairman. Could you not, if it has not already been done— it may have been done in my absence—further enlighten the com¬ mittee as to the functionaries" that are to adjust these differences in the different zones, as well as the board created here? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Senator, we have 32 boards now functioning on this thing. Our idea was to decentralize it, so as to f et speedy action and so as to get the men best in touch and who have een closest in touch with the production under these contracts. The Ordnance Department has 12 boards, and those are headed in each 58 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. case by the district ordnance officer, who is in every case a man of large experience, a civilian who has been expediting and watching production in his center for a considerable period of time past. He has made up boards, which have been approved in Washington, of four or five members each. They are largely officers of the Ordnance Department, but each board has an average of one civilian from the outside. In some cases he is a prominent attorney, and in some cases he is a member of the War Industries Board, in some cases repre¬ senting the War Industries Board in that particular district. The orders relating to the quartermaster supplies are being handled in the same way by 12 boards, which are functioning now in the 12 zones into which the Quartermaster Department has divided the country. There are, then, eight boards functioning in Washington, each on some specialty, such as chemical warfare service or aircraft, so that we have 32 of these boards now functioning. The Chairman. As these several boards in these zones make their ascertainment, no payment is made until the adjustment board here has passed on the matter? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; if they come to an agreement with the contractor, it is then forwarded to Washington for final action. If they do not come to an agreement, the whole matter goes to the adjustment board, of three members, which we have described. The Chairman. Does this adjustment board have any supervisory power over the zone boards? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; we hold that ourselves. This adjustment board acts only when there has been a disagreement. The Chairman. So that the ascertainment of the local boards is final where they agree? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No; it is referred to Washington. We then approve or disapprove their findings. The Chairman. Whom do you mean by “ we ”? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I mean the Division of Purchase; Storage and Traffic. Senator Fletcher. Does it finally come to the Secretary of War? Assistant Secretary Crowell. The adjustment board "acts for the Secretary. Senator Fletcher. I mean where there is an agreement between the contractor and the board. Is that sent up here, then, to the Secretary of War? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No ; I act finally on it. Senator Beckham. Suppose there is a case of collusion between the contractor and the local board, what protection is there to the Government? Assistant Secretary Crowell. There is the protection that the whole matter, before it is carried out, must be approved by the Divi¬ sion of Purchase, Storage and Traffic here in Washington. Senator McKellar. Who would do that approving here? You say it is a division. Of course, a division could not approve ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Gen. Goethals is the head of it. Senator McKellar. Gen. Goethals is the head of it, I know; but he would not do it personally, would he? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes; in some cases. The Chairman. Mr. Crowell, you have read the Hitchcock bill, have you not? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 59 The Chairman. Relatively under which one could these adjust¬ ments be made the more quickly? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Under the War Industries Board bill. The Chairman. You do not approve of the Hitchcock bill? Assistant Secretary Crowell. No, sir. The Chairman. You think the process would be too slow? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How long would it take to create an organization under the Hitchcock bill, such as you have, or perform the same functions you are now having performed under the boards you have created ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can best answer that by giving my opinion, which is under our present organization we will com¬ plete this by the 1st of July. I doubt if the Hitchcock board could be functioning by the 1st of July. The Chairman. You think it is quite essential that these matters should be adjusted as soon as possible? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think it is one of the most vital matters before the country to-day. I think the entire labor ques¬ tion depends on it—the absorption of labor. The demobilization of the Army and the absorption of labor hang on this matter, in my opinion. The Chairman. You think unless adjustment is quickly made it will result in tying up some of the industries ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I certainly do. The Chairman. Why? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Because their capital is tied up, and I do not think they will be able to go ahead and change over from our war-production basis to commercial business unless they can unlock that capital. The capital is largely borrowed. I know the banks are looking askance to-day at these contracts, and I think there will be many bankrupt firms unless something is done. The Chairman. The capital is tied up in war contracts? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. Senator Thomas. I want to ask a question which is perhaps foreign to this particular matter. It relates to the matter which was discussed here this morning. I am doing this at the request of Senator Hardwick. It is in regard to Camp Benning. The Senator wants to know whether operations are continuing there now or have been suspended. Assistant Secretary Crowell. They have not been suspended in any one of the three camps referred to. We have reduced the force. Senator McKellar. Do you not think it is wise to suspend them for the present at Camp Benning? Assistant Secretary Crowell. If we are going to complete the camp it would not be wise. That is the reason we simply slowed it down. If the feeling is that the camp—Camp Benning—should be abandoned, then we should shut down. Senator Thomas. I think Camp Benning should be abandoned. Senator McKellar. I speak only for myself, but I think that it should never have been started. 60 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Thomas. Well, I would not want to go that far. Senator McKellar. I mean after the signing of the armistice. Assistant Secretary Crowell. This was not started after the sign¬ ing of the armistice. Senator McKellar. I thought you said it was started after the signing of the armistice. I still stand by my statement, though, that this* should never have been started after the action taken by Congress in refusing to appropriate. Assistant Secretary Crowell. Camp Benning is not one of those two camps about which there was that difference of opinion. The two camps involved in that difference of opinion are Camp Bragg and Camp Knox. Senator McKellar. It was on precisely the same line and it was precisely the same thing, in my opinion. The department had ap¬ plied for specific appropriations for the other two and the ap¬ propriations had been refused, and the department went on in ap¬ parent disregard of the attitude of Congress and had them built, and I think this other camp is of a similar nature. Assistant Secretary Crowell. As I stated to you this morning, our understanding was that the appropriation had been refused be¬ cause it was a duplication. We already had an appropriation, and Gen. Snow’s testimony, which was read into the record this morn¬ ing, gives that very plainly. Senator McKellar. I had a talk with the chairman of the Ap¬ propriations Committee, Senator Martin, and he is verj^ positively of the opinion that it was brought up before his committee, and that his committee struck it out on the ground that it ought not to have been built; that we had ample camps at the time and after¬ wards, as I understood him, the department went on and disregarded the congressional action in that regard and built it anyway. Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think Gen. Snow’s testimony is very clear on that point. The Chairman. Do you not think that Camp Benning might very well be abandoned ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes, sir. The Chairman. While I understand the citizens of Columbus would like to see it go on, still the holders of the land would like to have it canceled. Now, with reference to this matter, where the Government has taken hold of land and utilized it, you would have a board to adjust the matter and make settlement for the use of the land—settle with the owners of the land? Assistant Secretary Crowell. Yes. Senator McKellar. I do not want anything I said to be con¬ strued as opposing the rights of people who have been injured, in their claims for reparation. I think people who have been injured should have reparation, but I think we should not throw away $13,000,000 in building a camp we have no use for, when we have so many. We have only spent a million dollars already on that camp, and I think it should be abandoned. Senator Fletcher. I think, in view of the large expenditure con¬ templated, and the small amount invested to date, that it would be well to discontinue that enterprise at Camp Benning. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 61 Senator Johnson. Mr. Chairman, in the matter we have been dis¬ cussing all day I want to call attention to the fact that the Hitchcock bill has been reported by the committee; that it is now before the Senate, and that some substantive action should be taken in refer¬ ence to it as soon as convenient, in accordance with the views ex¬ pressed here, which were apparently the consensus of opinion. The Chairman. I am frank to say, Senator, that my view has been changed since hearing these gentlemen. Senator Johnson. I was not very well acquainted with the terms of the bill when it was recorded, but after my chat with Mr. Thelan, I suggested that the subject was one of such great importance, of such overwhelming insistence, that we ought to take the matter up again, and that is the reason I brought it up again. Senator McKellar. I suggest that we fix to-morrow morning at half past 10. The Chairman. May I suggest that we meet day after to-morrow at half past 10 ? Senator Fletcher. And, in the meantime, have this printed. The Chairman. Yes. Senator Weeks. I want to say just a word to the Secretary about this matter of camps, which I think the department ought to bear in mind, and that is in regard to the maintenance of camps after they have been constructed. That is going to involve a very large annual expenditure. Now, Congress, as represented in this committee— and, I suppose, by all committees—is very much disturbed about the condition of the finances of the Government. We have got to cut everywhere we possibly can, or else we will have a serious time of it in the next few years, from a governmental standpoint. Now, I think the department ought to bear in mind that it is really not the business of military men to pay any attention to expenditures. If you refer any question to a military board, they will never make a report which will mean a reduction of expenditures; they are looking for efficiency; it is their business to do it, and it is the business of somebody else to look out for expenditures; but I think the officers of the department ought to cut wherever it can be done, without re¬ gard to the recommendations of the military boards that have con¬ sidered the subject. Senator McKellar. Mr. Secretary, I am a great believer in hav¬ ing something concrete. We think your work at Benning ought to be stopped. Now, w T ould you care to have a resolution by this com¬ mittee asking you to stop it at once? Or would you prefer to go ahead and stop it without a resolution ? If you want a resolution, I think we can pass it instantly. Assistant Secretary Crowell. If you will pass the resolution, I will stop the work to-night. Senator McKellar. Then, Mr. Chairman, I move that the Secre¬ tary of War be requested not to proceed further with the work at Camp Benning, Ga. (The motion was duly seconded, put, and unanimously prevailed.) Senator McKellar. Now, just one moment, Mr. Chairman. Mr. JR. L. Stancill, of the Department of Commerce, representing Secre¬ tary Redfield, wishes to be heard for just a moment on this matter. 62 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. STATEMENT OF MR. R. L. STANCILL, OF THE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE. Mr. Stancill. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, the secretary merely wishes me to say that he considers it most important that the com¬ mittee take some action just as soon as possible in the matter of these contracts with manufacturers, a number of whom have come to him, and who find themselves in a helpless position, for which they are in no way to blame, with their capital tied up; and in a number of cases they are in this position because they answered a patriotic call from the Government to help meet a military emergency; and we should also consider it a patriotic duty of the- Government to handle this matter as quickly as possible, so that the condition of uncertainty in business circles, as a whole, may be relieved with the least delay. Senator Thomas. I do not think there is any question in this com¬ mittee—and I hope that there is not any question anywhere—re¬ garding the tremendously important nature of this matter. Senator Johnson. We are all in accord with that. Senator McKellar. Yes; it is merely a question of getting the best way to deal with it. Senator Thomas. I am willing to hold night sessions, if neces¬ sary. The Chairman. If there is nothing further before the committee,, we will adjourn now and meet again Thursday morning, at half past 10 o’clock, and then we will dispose of this situation. (Whereupon, at 3.05 o’clock p. m., the committee adjourned to meet at 10.30 o’clock a. m. Thursday, January 9, 1919.) LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. FRIDAY, JANUARY 10, 1919. United States Senate, Committee on Military Affairs, Washington , D. G. The committee met at 10.30 o’clock a. m., in the committee room, Capitol, Senator George E. Chamberlain presiding. Present: Senators Chamberlain (chairman), Hitchcock, Fletcher, Thomas, Beckham, Kirby, McKellar, Weeks, Wadsworth, Suther¬ land, New, Frelinghuysen, and Knox. FORT BENNING, GA. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. The committee yesterday made an order to reconsider its action with reference to the Fort Benning proposition. It is open now for hearing at the request of Senator Smith of Georgia. I believe that some citizens of Columbus are here. Senator Smith, whom do you desire to be heard? Senator Smith of Georgia. Mr. Chairman, I would like to be heard for a short time upon the proposition. I first thought that probably you would want to hear from the military end with refer¬ ence to the matter. The Chairman. Well, we have already heard from the Secretary of War. Senator Smith of Georgia. But in addition to that I want, at the request of the Chief of Staff, to give you a little more fully the military technical position. The citizens of Columbus who desire to be heard wish to present to you the fact that the action of the Government amounts really to a transfer of title and simply the ruin of these people now unless the Government goes on in good faith with its purchase. There are many instances that they can cite to you in which farmers went off and bought other farmers at $10,000, $15,000 and $25,000, borrowed the money to pay it off, and had the notes in bank, moving the ten¬ ants as well as their horses, and moved their supplies. The Govern¬ ment has got it and has had it for two months. They do not allow the citizens to go upon the land except upon a Government permit, and the former owner of the land could not cut a branch of holly for Christmas off of his former possessions. As I have said, the Govern¬ ment has taken possession of the property and put them off. Senator Johnson of California. Has there been a complete ouster on all these 100,000 acres? 63 64 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes, sir; there has been a complete ouster. The Government is in possession, and the parties have gone off and bought other land, and agreements have been made of over $750,000 as an exact price, and in the others the procedure is in such shape that it is practically the same thing. Senator Johnson of California. The Secretary of War told us, Senator, that there had been thirty odd thousand dollars—I may be in error about that- Senator Smith of Georgia. Actually paid. Senator Johnson of California. Actually paid and commitments of about $100,000; is that correct ? The Chairman. It is something like that. Senator Smith of Georgia. I am going to give you a great deal more accurate information even than the Secretary. I have had ex¬ perience as Secretary of a Department, and I know that the man representing the department in charge of the work gets the details of a particular job, as no member of the Cabinet can retain a knowl¬ edge of all of the work in his immediate department. The Chairman. Will you please indicate the order in which you desire to call these gentlemen? Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes, sir. In the first place, I wish to lay before the committee the condemnation procedure by the Govern¬ ment filed November 2, claiming title to all this land under the act, and taking possession of it. The Chairman. In one proceeding ? Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Against all the defendants? Senator Smith of Georgia. Against all of the defendants, partly known and partly unknown, and subsequently those who were un¬ known were found. The Government mapped out the entire land that they wanted, platted it, and proceeded against that land and those known as owners, and those who were unknown, and went into possession of the entire land. Senator Frelinghuysen. Have they any troops there now ? Senator Smith of Georgia. Oh, yes; the troops are entirely in possession of it. There are two or three schools running there now. Mr. Chairman. I believe I will put Col. Ames on the stand first to let you know the actual physical conditions there. The Chairman. We will have those proceedings incorporated in the record. Senator Smith. I should like to have that done, Mr. Chairman. (The paper referred to is here printed in full, as follows:) PROCEEDINGS TO CONDEMN LAW. In the District Court of the United States for the Northern District of Georgia, and the western division thereof. The United States of America v. One hun¬ dred and fifteen thousand acres of land (more or less) in counties of Chatta¬ hoochee and Muscogee, Ga., M. A. Anthony and others. No. 42 at law. Original petition to condemn filed in clerk’s office November 2, 1918. Hooper Alex¬ ander, Esq., United States attorney. Copy for service on W. C. Bradley. To the district court of said division and district: The petition of the United States brought by Hooper Alexander, United States attorney for said division and district, acting under the instructions of the Attorney General and at the request of the Secretary of War, respect¬ fully represents to the court as follows: LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 65 1. That by an act of Congress approved July 2, 15)17, it was provided that hereafter the Secretary of War may cause proceedings to he instituted in the name of the United States in any court having jurisdiction of such proceed¬ ings for the acquirement by condemnation of any land needed for the site, location, construction, or prosecution of works for military training camps, such proceedings to be prosecuted in accordance with the laws relating to suits for the condemnation of property of the States wherein the proceedings may he instituted; with a proviso that when the owner of such land shall fix a price for the same which, in the opinion of the Secretary of War, shall be reasonable, he may purchase or enter into a contract therefor at such price without further delay ; and with a further proviso that when such property is acquired in time of war or the imminence thereof upon the filing of the petition for condemnation of any land for any of the purposes aforesaid, immediate posses¬ sion thereof may be taken and the lands may be occupied and used for military purposes, and the provision of section 355 of the Revised Statutes, providing that no public money shall be expended upon such land until the written opinion of the Attorney General shall he had in favor of the validity of the title, shall he suspended during the period of the existing emergency. 2. That on the 24th of October, 1918, a state of war existed between the United States and the Imperial German Government, and between the United States and the Government of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which state of war still continues. 3. That on the 24th of October, 1918, the Secretary of War elected to cause proceedings to he instituted in the name of the United States, in a court having jurisdiction of such proceedings, for the acquirement by condemnation of the fee simple title to a large body of land lying in the counties of Muscogee and Chattahoochee, in the State of Georgia, and needed for the site, location, con¬ struction, and prosecution of works for a military training camp and camps, and for the purpose of carrying said election into effect did request the Attorney General of the United States to cause condemnation proceedings to be insti¬ tuted for the acquisition thereof, the need for immediate possession of the same being at that time and now continuing to be urgent. 4. That thereupon, under date of October 25, 1918, the Attorney General directed the United States attorney for the northern district of Georgia, in which district said counties lie, to institute proceedings in accordance with the wishes of the Secretary of War as expressed in the request of October 24, 1918, made as aforesaid by the Secretary of War. 5. Said lands are needed by the United States for the purposes indicated and alleged in the third paragraph of this petition. 6. Included within the body of land which the Secretary of War so desires condemned and acquired, and constituting a part thereof, are certain lands lying in the counties of Muscogee and Chattahoochee, in the State of Georgia, in said Western Division of the northern district of Georgia, included within a boundary described as follows: Commencing at a point in land lot 79 of the seventh land district of Muscogee County where the' northern margin of Upatoi Creek intersects with the Chattahoochee River; running thence in a direction generally eastwardly along the northern margin of said Upatoi Creek, upstream and with the meaiylerings thereof, through lots 79 and 78 of said land district, to the point where the northern margin of said Upatoi Creek inter¬ sects the land lot line that divides lots 78 and 83 on the west, from lots 77 and 84 on the east; thence northwardly along said land lot line between lots 59 and 78 on the west, and lots 00 and 77 on the east, to the point at the north¬ east corner of lot 59, where the Lumpkin Road leaves the land lot line; thence along the Lumpkin Road and with the meanderings thereof, in a direction generally north, through lots 54, 37, 30, 13, and 9, to and across the waters of Bull Creek and to the northern or western margin of said creek; thence in a northeasterly direction along the said northern or western margin of said Bull Creek, to the district line separating lot 9 of said seventh district from frac¬ tional lot 85 of the Coweta Reserve; thence easterly along said district line until it reaches the southeastern corner of fractional lot 104 in said Coweta Reserve; thence north along the land-lot line separating fractional lot 104 from fractional lot 105 in said Coweta Reserve, and along the eastern boundary of lots 103, 102, 101, 100, 99, and 98 to the northeastern corner of lot 98; thence west along the northern boundary of lot 98, lot 91, and part of lot 78 to its intersection with Lawyers Lane; thence north and northwest along Lawyers Lane to the Macon Road in land-lot 77; thence northeast along the 99137—19-5 66 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Macon lload through lots 77, 76, and 93 until it intersects the land-lot line which is the northern boundary of land lot 93 aforesaid ; thence eastwardly along said land-lot line, and along the northern boundary of lots 93, 96, 113, 116, 133, 136, and fractional lot 153, to the district line, which is the eastern boundary of the Coweta Reserve; thence north along said district line a short distance to the southwest corner of lot 10, and the northwest corner of lot 11 in the ninth land district; thence eastwardly along said land-lot line, along the northern boundary of lots 11, 22, 43, 54, and 75 of said ninth district, to the northeastern corner of said lot 75; thence northwardly along the land-lot line, which is the western boundary of lots 87, 88, 89, and 90 of said ninth district, to the northwestern corner of lot 90; thence eastwardly along the land-lot line which is the northern boundary of lots 90.103, 122,135,154,167,186, 199, 218, 231, and 250 of said ninth district, to the western boundary of lot 296 in the tenth land district; thence southward along said land-lot line and the eastern boundary of lots 250, 249, 248, 247, 246, 245, and 244, to the waters of Upatoi Creek; thence continuing in said line, across the water of Upatoi Creek and into the county of Chattahoochee, and along the eastern boundary line of lots 243, 242, and 241 of the ninth land district of Chattahoochee County, to the district line which separates the ninth land district from the sixth land district of Chattahoochee County; thence along said district line a short distance eastward to the northeast corner of land lot 33 in said sixth district; thence southward along the land-lot line and eastern boundary of land lots 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, and 42 of said sixth land district of Chattahoochee County and to the southeastern corner of land lot 52; thence west along the land-lot line and the southern boundary of lots 42, 55. 74, and 87 of said sixth land district, to the southwest corner of said land lot 87 and the northeast corner of land lot 107 in said sixth land district; thence south along the land- lot line and along the eastern boundary of lots 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, and 112 of said sixth land district of Chattahoochee County, and continuing along the same line southerly along the eastern boundary of fractional lot 7. and lots 112, 111, 110, 109, and 108 of the thirty-third land district of Chattahoochee County, and to the southeastern corner of lot 108 aforesaid, thence westerly along the land-lot line and the southern boundary of lots 108, 117, 140, 149, 172, 181, 204, 213, 236, and 245 of said thirty-third land district, and con¬ tinuing the same direction westerly along the southern boundary of fractional lot 30 in the twenty-second land district of Chattahoochee County, to the Chat¬ tahoochee River; thence up the eastern margin of said Chattahoochee River northwesterly through said district and the seventh land district of said Chattahoochee County to the apex of the big bend in the river, and continuing up the river northwardly and northeastwardly along the eastern margin of said river, to and across the waters of Upatoi ('reek to the point of beginning; together with all the rights, members, appurtenances, and easements, includ¬ ing riparian rights, thereunto belonging or in anywise appertaining, the whole containing by estimation 115,000 acres of land, more or less, and constituting and being, as already alleged, a part of said tract of land so desired by the Secretary of War for the purposes aforesaid. 7. The owners of said lands are unknown to ihe United States, but it is thought and believed that the persons hereinafter named own or claim to own. or hold . L.; Dimon, Julius; Davis, Webster; Evans, Henry, the administrator, and heirs of; Felton, Flora; Farley. Abram; Foster, W. M.; Foster, P. G.; Farr, J. A.; Fuller, Earne t C.; George] Mrs. Minnie L.; Garrett, G. ,J.; Garrett, J. B.; Guerry, Ben; Garrett, J. S.. the administrators and heirs of; Ginn, T. I).; Ginn, S. A.; Ginn, J. W.: Ginn, H. E.; Ginn, L. V.; Ginn, L. D.; Green, Mrs. N. F.; Gibson, Mrs. Mattie; Gammell. J. F.: Grisson, J. A.: Hughes, James F.; .Tones, Morgan : Jones. Mur- LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 67 ray; Jones, Robert; Jennings, B. G.; Jordan, Annie; .lone', Wiley; Jefferson, Mrs. Marietta V.; King, G. W.; Kilpatrick, Frank; King, G. I).; Iviiulricks, W. W.; King, E. L.; King, Mrs. C. N.; King, (Jims. N.; Leonard, A. L.; Levy, Mrs. L. (\ ; Lew, Mrs. Isabel A.: Lewis, Robena H.; Massev, W. Y.; Massey, W. G.; Mas ey, Joseph W.; Molder. Mrs. M. L.; Moore, E. H.; McMurrain, S. IX; McBride, W. .).. the administrators and heirs of; MeGirt, W. I).: McGinty, Mrs. Robert; McGarrah, Mrs. B. G.; McGlung, John L.; McOutcheon, H. (1; McBride, S. J.; Newsom, John T„ and sister, whose name is unknown to plaintiff; Pierce, B. M.; Phelps, H. H.; Parker, Mrs. S. G.; Parker, W. A.; Pharris, Chas. E.; Pawley, H. F„ the adminbtrators and heirs of; Pou Bros., whose individual mimes are unknown to plaintiff; Pou, J. F.; Pou, John Dozier; Rankin, J. A.; Rothschild, B.; Hitch, Mrs. S. A.; Robinson, T. F.; Robinson, H. D.; Rogers, C. IX; Roberts, Mrs. M. L.; Revell, R. W.; Springer, H. A.; Smith, Mrs. Lula lv.; Stewart, John; Simmons, S. B.; Swift, Mrs. J. V., the administrators and heirs of; Scott, W. A.; Snelling, J. A.; Snelling, R. R.; Shorter, Delia; Schley, F. IX; Schley, F. V.; Schley, Mrs. F. V.; Schley, Wil¬ liam K.; Scroggins, A. G.; S almonds, J. A.; Sapp, Mrs. Annie F.; Thomas, ,T. L.; Thomas, J. IX; Taff, Mrs. A. B.; Taff, Chas. M.; Taff, W. M.; Taff. Mrs. Mary; Taff, Sarah; Tenney, Hiram; Tomhlin, Ed T.; Thomason, _ 50 Rogers, A. N_ 170 Rogers, Edith_ 45 Stewart, James M_ 50 Stanton, Wilkes_: 56 Stevens, C. V_ 395} Smith, Mrs. Lula K_ 2,168} Simons, S. B_ 170 Simons, C. F_ 101} Sapp, Mrs. Annie E_ 607} Springer, H. A_ 644 Acres. Skinner, L. W_ 105 Schley, Mrs. F. V_ 1,106} Scott, W. A_ 231} Spellers, Neil, heirs_ 202} Thornton, A. L_:_ 149 Terry, W. R_ 60 Tinney, K. H_ 20 Thomas, Walter_ 357 Taylor, William_ 127 Tomblin, Joseph M_ 109 Tate, T. L____ _1 10 Thomason, George J_ 101} Thornton, J. H_ 254 Tomlin, G. W_ 152 Tomlin, F. B., jr_ 100 Thomas, J. L_ 405 Underwood, W. H_ 150 Whatley, J. T., Co_ 202} Wynn, E. J_ 1,994 Warner, Mrs. Susie S., and Miss Annie Swift_ 361} Wilson, C. F_ 125 Williams, H. H_ 30 Whyte, Marie L_ 325 Total_56,131.81 Camp Rragfi, N. C.. landoinirrs. HOKE COUNTY. Acres. W. P. Barker___ 846 W. M. Blue_ 2,990 N. S. Blue_12,000 W. A. Blue_ 3.500 O. D. Bonds (colored)_ 146.5 Broadfoot & Broadfoot_ 100 Malcolm Brown (colored)- 146.5 Annie E. Cameron_ 373 Annie E. Cameron and Mary S. Blue_ 521.5 I >o_ 2, 500 Will Cotton_ 50 M. Covington and Amelia McLendon_ 425 J. W. Crossland_ 33} J. W. Currie and II. B. Whitley_ 469 Sam Dupree_ 118. 5 Sy Dupree (colored)- 150 Henry Ellison_ 50 Til lie'Faulk_ 25 E. W. Gillespie_ 100 Welcome Handon_ 230 Rev. Josh Handon_ 169 Lucy Ellen Hatcher- 205 W. H. Holiday_ 50 Lavinia Hollingsworth- 100 Sandy Jones- 34. 5 J. E. Latham_ 703 Do_ 812 J. B. D. Lindsey_ 93 Alex McDougald (Home)— 240 Alex McDougald (Lutterloh) 200 Alex. McDuffie estate_ 120 Acres. John F. McFayden_ 639.1 Do_ 600 Do_ 800 A. D. McGill_ 2,405 John F. McNair_ 400 Sarah McGougan_ 321 Ellen U. McKeithan_ 365 J. W. McLaughlin_ 800 Do_ 200 Do_ 930. 8 A. E. McLean_ 666 D. A. McPhail—_ 265 W. A. Malachi_ 49} Missionary Baptist Church, Fractional acre E. M. Monroe_ 155 C. A. Monroe_ 155 Wiley Oliver (colored)_ 150 Dr. Geo. B. Patterson_ 283. 5 Charles Raleigh_ 125 Duncan J. Ray estate_ 320 D. H. Ray estate, Isabella Ray _ 575 W. H. Ray_ 50 York Rogers_ 150 John H. Rogers_ 2, 780 Maggie Sikes_ 1, 000 E. S. Smith_ 268 John Townsend_ 250 S. B. Townsend_ 221 Anna Townsend_ 415 Edgar R. Townsend_ 425 Ida T. Turner_ 296 96 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS, 1 . 3. 4. 5. 6 . 7. 8 . 9. 10 . 11 . 12 . 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. 20 . 21 . 22 . 23. 24. 25. 26. 27. 28. 29. 30. 31. 32. 33. 34. 35. 36. 37. 38. 39. 40. 41. 42. 43. 44. 45. 46. 47. 48. 49. 50. 51. List of owners and acreage. O. A. Waddell_- Carolina Light & Power Co__ O. A. Waddell_ D. A. Monroe_ O. A. Waddell_ O. A. Waddell_ O. A. Waddell_ D. M. Fairley_ Issac Murchison_ Fannie R. and Charles H. Clark___ D. M. Fairley_ D. M. Fairley_ Fred Monroe_ Amos Carter_ N. W. Ray_ Fannie R. and Charles H. Clark_ Fannie R. and Charles H. Clark_ Harry Johnson__ Amos Carter_ S. E. Hart_ Sam Murchison._i_ D. M. Fairley_ Fred and James Mon¬ roe_ J. C. Lee_ A. D. McKenzie_ John F. Clark and wife, Emma D. Clark_ Flora Ray___ W. L. King_ J. R. Murchison_ Kent Jordan & Co_ Martin Williams, J. A. McLean, Cupid Mc¬ Lean, Daniel McLean, Alfred Jackson_ W. H. Marsh_ W. H. Marsh and T. J. Purdy_ W. H. Marsh and T. J. Purdy_ Annie V. Graham_ W. H. Marsh and T. J. Purdy_ John A. and Ollie Vick Livingston_ Joshua W. Cannon_ Millie Clark Bowles_ Mary Kivett_1 Mary Kivett_J S. W. Cooper_ J. J. Powers_ J. E. Raynor_ J. E. Raynor_ Mary Carver_ J. E. Raynor___ J. E. Raynor_ S. W. Cooper___ S. W. Cooper_ J. W. and R. S. Moore_ Acres. 2. 5 25 5 28 55 1.4 3.6 50 750 45 150 80 50 50 70 90 50 20 80 27 50 100 65 75 100 175 5 10 140 1,706 50 272 30 19 107 58. 8 50 210 320 294 15 54 75 50 10 48 4 66.7 270 303 52. Malanthon Lee_ 53. W. G. Davis and wil E. C. Davis_ 54. Alfred McKethan_ 55. S. W. Cooper_ 56. H. McN. Ray_ 57. Joshua W. Cannon_ 58. W. E. Raynor_ 59. S. W.. Cooper_ 60. S. W. Cooper_ 61. K. R. Raynor_ 62. S. W. Cooper_ 63. S. W. Cooper_ 64. S. W. Cooper_ 65. S. W. Cooper_ 66. Lacey McArthur_ 67. Lacey McArthur_ 68. Walter L. Holt_ 69. S. W. Cooper_ 70. Ellen Manuel_ 71. Z. D. Jackson_ 72. J. W. and R. S. Moor 73. T. J. Purdy and R. ' Evans_ 74. Vance Blanton_ 75. Walter L. Holt_ 76. Walter L. Holt_ 77. Walter L. Holt_ 1. R. T. Ozment_ 2. T. J. Purdy and R. B. Evans_*_ 90v 6 3. James McPherson_ 22 4. M. N. Pearson_ 80. 5 5. J. W. and R. S. Moore_ 548 6. Z. D. Jackson_ 39.5 7. Mary G. McKay_ 18.4 8. Heffor McKay_ 19.3 9. W. H. Powell_ 99 10. I. G. McDonald_ 8 11. L. McNeill Cornish_ 14 12. W. M. Miller_ 25 13. Charles Thomas_ 16 14. R. Kelley_ 3 15. Alexander McLaughlin_ 12. 4 16. Friendship Church_ 5. 3 17. E. F. Wrasbury_ 23 18. George McKay_ 23 19. J. M. Hester_ 6 20. J. M. Hester_ 10 21. J. T. Ray_ 21 22. James McGardner_ 10 23. E. F. Wrasbury_ 47 24. Mary C. McKay_ 5.3 25. Ellen Manuel_ 6.5 26. Nora Hollingsworth_ 15 27. Leslie McKay_ 15 28. Virgil Monroe_ 16. 5 29. David Johnson_ 29 30. Peter King_ 27. 6 31. Kent Jordan_ 21 32. W. C. Dicks_ 217 33. Connelia Dicks_ 77. 3 34. Catherine Harrington_ 9. 2 35. Stepney Monroe_ 6 Acres. 100 e_ B. 11 5 6 8 8 15. 2 25 3. 4 6. 4 15. 7 29. 5 70 70 21 96. 5 27 32 45 100 160 72 70 72 13 8 97 LAND LOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Acres. 36. Henry Monroe_ 12 37. Whit Monroe_ 22. 3 38. Henry Hollingsworth_ 73 39. Kent Jordan_ 36. 5 40. James McDonald._ 39. 5 41. Virgil Monroe_ 28 42. Aron McDonald_ 33 43. Isaac G. McDonald_ 37. 3 44. S. D. McKay_ 9.2 45. John A. Austin_ 16 46. William H. McDonald ___ 22 47. Barbarv or Hiram Ray_ 33 48. R. Brooks_ 4 49. Mary McKay_ 51 Acres 50. Eugene Watson_ 47. 8 51. John McDougold_ 2. 7 52. R. C. Rogers_ 129.7 53. L. A. Fillyaw_ 121.2 54. New Hope School lot_ 2 55. H. Flu slim an_ 1. 8 56. Jarvis Harris_ 45 57. H. Flushman_ 70 58. Mclllwinen_ 59. .T. S„ and E. J., and J. F. Ellis_ 23 60. McDuffie_ 8 61. John W. Ellis_ 6 Property on river. No. Owner. Acreage. Deed. Camp. 1 Vance Blanton. 99.6 2 R. Ozment. 13.8 12.8 3 Me Pherson. 21.5 4 Purdy and Evans. 123.4 5 M. N. Pearson . 81.0 6 J. W. and R. S. Moore. 468.0 7 Wm. Miller. 25 29.3 8 S. McNeill Cornish. 15 14.0 9 Isaac McDonald. 10 8.0 10 Clifton McKav. 10 13.0 11 Alex Buie . 12.6 12 Friendship Presbyterian Church . 4.8 13 M. E. Wrasburv. 25 27.0 14 Estate of Geo. McKay. 25 23.1 15 Chas. Thomas. 21? 18.3 16 Beulah Missionary Baptist Church. 1 . 7 17 M. E. Wrasburv. 50 48.5 18 J. T. Ray. 21 20.2 19 J AT He«ter 135 117.8 20 James Me Gardiner. 10 10.1 21 Wm. H. McDonald. 23.5 21.2 22 Janie McKay. 17.25 16 3 23 Nora Hollingsworth et al.... 15.2 24 Alary J. Ale Kay. 17.1 ?*> Hector McKav. 18.8 26 Alary .T. AToKav_ 18.8 27 Z D. Jackson . 36.1 28 F.llen Abvnvel 7.8 29 Virgil Alonroe . 17.5 30 Emiline Williams. 32 30.1 31 Estate of James McDonald.. 39.25 38.0 32 S. D. AIcKav. 10 8.3 33 Aaron McDonald. 30. 25 33.5 34 Isaac G. AIcDonald. 41 37.3 35 Jno. A. Alston. 13-yV 16.8 36 Sophia AlcDougald. 2 2.8 37 Barbarv Rav. 44 32. 7 38 R. Brooks. 6 3.2 39 New Hope School. 1.6 40 Cumberland Seventh Dav Baptist Church. 2.86 2.53 41 Eugene Watson. 44 42.1 42 Alary A. Ale Kay. 50 52. 4 43 T. J. Harris. 5U 42.1 44 H Fleishman. . 2.0 45 R. C. Rogers. 138 131.6 46 H. Fleishman. ! 7R 68.5 47 Simon AlcKay. 6.1 8.0 48 R. H. Fillyaw. 5 5.0 49 U AT Fillyaw 32.9 50 R. Kelley.'. 5 3.7 T, \ Fillyaw. 447.4 52 AToTllwinen . 447.4 53 .1. S.,E. .T., and J. E. Ellis... 23.1 23.5 54 .1. H. Ray. 7. 25 7.4 55 J. W. Ellis. ] 5.1 No. Owner. Acreage. Deed. Camp. 56 Sheppard and McOougan... 759 696.0 57 Dora AA r hitehead Goins. 96.6 58 FmiL P. Newton. 124 116.0 59 Henrv Whitehead. 117 85.0 Honr- Whitehead. 118 93.0 60 P. C. Newton. 76 98.0 61 D. N. Newton. 72 72.6 62 D. N. Newton. 76.5 78.0 ] 63 D. K. Mints. 107 110.0 D. K. Mints. 255 249.0 64 Jesse cillis. 10 10.1 65 Jane Gillis. 10 8.7 t 66 Henrv Alonroe. 10 11.0 67 Stepney Alonroe. 5 4.4 ! 68 \\ r hit Monroe. 13. 5 6.7 69 AVhit Alonroe. 19.5 26.5 70 Henrv Hollingsworth. 74 75. 9 71 | Kent Jordan. Kent Jordan. 35.5 34.7 18.6 1 72 D. W. Johnson. 27.6 73 Katherine Harrington. 10 9.7 : 74 St°adman. 25.5 i 75 76 Cornelia Dicks... AY.C.Dicks, Henrietta Dicks 64 75.2 (plat, will not fit). 142 208.8 77 D. II. Rav. 157 113.0 78 Kent Jordan. 214 196. 0 79 Arch. McDougald. 39 39.7 80 Mary McDougald. 5 5.0 81 Alice AfcGill. 50 42.1 82 ,T. W. Chavis estate. 50 35.5 83 Alex I insap. 66.6 84 Henrv AIcNeill. 37.5 48.3 .85 Christian McPhail. 158.0 86 Nelia Ritter. 30 i 49.5 Nelia Ritter. 100 102.4 87 Afacrgie Hadlev. 20 18.9 88 Odom and Spears (1 tract).. 140.8 89 Gentrv and Rozier. 309.8 90 J. W. Adams et al. 342. 35 295.8 91 Charles Thomas. 220 225.2 92 Charles Thomas. 60 50.8 93 Archie AlcKay. 35 34.5 94 Alack Shaw. 82 83.3 95 AYilliam James Ritter. 50 49.5 96 J. AV. Fllis (2 tracts). 112.7 120.0 97 Daniel Me" can estate. 10 9.4 98 Ceorge Knight. 20 16. 3 99 100 101 Sheppard and McGougan... Neill Buie 118 108.0 Sarah .T. Alclntvre. 131.5 125. 4 102 H. C. McNeill. 144.5 148.5 103 T. A . Clark. 105. S6 114.0 104 N. D. Al. Clark. 238 247.7 105 Tom Cameron. 8 6.2 106 Fannie McAIillan. 5 4.6 107 1 108 Aloses Whitehead. 25 26. 0 S. J. AA r eathers. 61 72.2 99137—19-7 98 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Property on river —Continued. No. Owner. Acreage. Deed. Camp. 109 Pelphia A. and Francis G. Chavis. 73 85.2 110 Edmund Chavis estate. 140 120.5 111 J. O. D. Kin?. 85.0 112 113 J. F. and I. S. McFadyon... Kent Jordan. 168 190.9 , 114 J. F. McArthur estate. 50 49.5 115 B. L. and C. F. Anders. 77.0 86.3 116 John K. Rav estate. 526 533. 0 117 Kent Jordan. 785.7 118 D. K. Howard. 134.6 119 R. Y. Howard. 43 41.6 120 J. A. Howard. 293.1 No. Owner. Acreage. Deed. Camp. 121 R. P. Howard. 120.0 122 D. M. Fairlev. 70 62.8 123 Kent Jordan. 79.11 83.3 124 T. H. Monroe. 79 70.6 125 J. H. Monroe. 79 83.7 126 Katherine Thompson. 129 102.8 127 128 Amos Carter. Amos Carter. 50 1.2 11.0 129 Fairley. 100 98.4 130 Fred and James Monroe. 65 .9 131 J. C. 1 ec. 75 43.0 132 J. R. Overton. 60 61.6 (The data referred to by Senator Sutherland was subsequently submitted and is here printed in full as follows: Personal estimate made by Maj. J. Paul Jones, Construction Quartermaster. Cash expenditure_ $458, 000 Amount obligated_ 1,107, 000 Total spent on the job_-_ 1, 565, 000 Cost of salvage_ 200, 000 Value of the salvage___ 200, 000 Total loss on construction_ 1, 565. 000 If the land is not owned by the Government and damages will have to be paid, the estimated damage will be___ $1, 400, 000 Considering the Government material now on hand within the radius of two hundred fifty miles which would be used in the construction of this camp and charged at $7,000,000, if sold at auction the loss would be_ 3, 500, 000 Total loss to the Government if the project is abandoned_^ 6, 465, 000 An estimated cost, that is new cash outlay, to continue the construc¬ tion of the school as originally outlined, that is for 10,000 men, and that Governmfent-owned material now at these other camps is not charged against the job, the cash outlay to complete would be— Labor and other expenses_»_ $4, 500, 000 New material---- 1, 500, 000 Total- 6, 000, 000 And considering that 17,000 acres can be released from the original 115.000 acre project, 98,000 acres of land can be acquired for $2,500,000, making a grand total of___ $8, 500,000 to complete the Infantry School of Arms for 10,000 men. Senator New. This statement that I wish inserted in the record was prepared from the county records of Chattahoochee and Musco¬ gee Counties, t by the Chamber of Commerce of Columbus, Ga., and presented by the officers to the War Department. Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman, the total number of respondents to this condemnation proceeding who have accepted the view that the Government took the title, I want to put into the record. I understand it is practically all of them; that with a very small exception, they have accepted the procedure. The Chairman. Have you witnesses on that? LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 99 Senator Smith. I will get the official record and furnish that. * I wanted to ask Col. Whelen, from the training committee of the War College, a question or two about the opinion of the War De¬ partment as to the necessity for conducting these schools. STATEMENT OF LIEUT. COL. TOWNSEND WHELEN. The Chairman. Please give your name, address, and tour of duty to the stenographer. Lieut. Col. Whelen. Lieut. Col. Townsend Whelen, with the Division of Training and Instruction Branch, General Staff. Senator Tiiomas. The Secretary of War stated the other day that the military authorities were all of an opinion that actuated them in going ahead. The Chairman. I do not think there is any question among the military men, that they all want it. Senator Smith. I want you, Colonel, to give the opinion of the War College as to the necessity of these four schools, there at Co¬ lumbus, or somewhere. Lieut. Col. Whelen. The training and instruction branch is of the opinion that these schools are a necessary part of the training scheme for the entire Army. If you decide that your Army shall be well trained* they are absolutely a necessary part. They take up the technical training of the use, by the whole Army, with the exception of military aeronautics, of small arms. The trend of modern war¬ fare, not only in this war, but in all wars, for the past 20 years, has made that training more and more technical, and it has reached that point now, where, if that training throughout our Army is to be efficient, and is to be uniform, we must have schools which will teach them training in correct gunnery, and we must have our young offi¬ cers go through those schools, so that in every company of infantry, troop of cavalry, in every machine gun company, and in every artil¬ lery regiment, we will have instructors, capable of imparting a uni¬ form and efficient method of using small arms in warfare. From our studies that we have made on this subject, it will take for the size army which the War Department contemplates will be neces¬ sary in peace time, approximately two thousand students under in¬ struction at all times. That will enable us to eventually have the great majority of the company officers instructed and to instruct the younger officers shortly after entering into the service. Senator Thomas. Personally, I think that that view is the correct one, but I do not understand why it is necessary to have so many of these camps, or why the war, having ended, it is necessary to con¬ tinue all the camps, both those which were in full operation at the time of the armistice and those which were in contemplation at the time. Lieut. Col. Whelen. This camp is a consolidation of four camps, that we had during the war. Senator Thomas. Yet the Government retains the four camps, of which this is a consolidation, and continues to operate them as well, although perhaps in some other parts of the service. Lieut. Col. Whelen. Fort Sill has been given over to the field artillery, as one of the schools for technical training in field artillery firing. 100 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Thomas. Where was the field artillery training school before that? Lieut. Col. Whelen. A. part at Fort Sill and part of it was in Kentucky, and part in Tobyhanna. Senator Thomas. The Kentucky camp continues; what are you going to do with Tobyhanna? Lieut. CoJ. Whelen. I believe it continues, too. I am not pre¬ pared to say whether it is going to be retained for field artillery, but their studies show they need more than one; in fact we really need four or five training centers to efficiently cover the training of the artillery the new Army contemplates having. Senator Thomas. Is it not a fact that the training increases while the standing army decreases ? Is not that the practical result of the present program—the expanding of the training camps, both as to the number of men and number of camps, and a decrease of the number of men in the line ? Lieut, Col. Whelen. That is not so with reference to these camps. Senator McKellar. Are there any camps designated for abandon¬ ment ? Lieut. Col. Whelen. We have designed practically eVery tent camp. Senator McKellar. That is, for soldiers? Lieut. Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. I mean for officers. Lieut.- Col. Whelen. Practically every tent camp for every pur¬ pose. Senator Johnson. What do you mean by “tent camp? ” Senator Thomas. I understand the War Department has asked us to arrange for the purchase of these tent camps. Lieut. Col. Whelen. As I understand it, the camps recommended for purchase are those national army cantonments where large number of buildings have been placed on the ground, and canton¬ ments which would furnish a most perfect site for the training of our peace-time divisions, and also where it is more expensive to get out of the project than it is to purchase it. We have spent a great deal of money on these cantonments, and many of them will furnish perfect training centers. Senator McKellar. How large an army are we to maintain in peace time? Lieut. Col. Whelen. I think that is up to this committee. Senator McKellar. That is what we think of it. Senator Thomas. I think what the Senator means is what army you are going to recommend. Senator McKellar. It looks, from the recommendations in respect to the training camps, etc., that we are starting in to maintain a very large army. I do not think we want to keep an immense Germanized army in this country, and we will not do it with my consent. Lieut. Col. Whelen. We have to train as many men as Congress decides it is necessary to train for the safety of the country. ‘ Senator McKellar. I do not think we had better buy the camps first before we make up our minds what size army we want. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 101 Senator Sutherland. Do you think these temporary shacks built on the cantonment sites should be treated as permanent improve¬ ments ? Lieut. Col. Whblen. They are improvements which will enable us to house our Army for some years to come, at a minimum expense. Senator T\ adsworth. \ ou have already large investments in sewer systems, etc., on theses cantonment sites? Lieut. Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. Senator Sutherland. Is it contemplated to replace these shacks, etc. ? Lieut. Col. Whelen. Yes, sir; if you are going to maintain a suitable army in the future, it will be necessary to replace them in time. Senator Smith. Has not the machine-gun camp at Hancock been abandoned ? Lieut. Col. Whelen. Yes, sir; as soon as we can move the men down to Camp Benning. Senator Smith. And have not these other two schools, or camps, been given up or transferred to some other camps? Lieut. Col. Whelen. The small-arms training school has been transferred from Camp Curry; the infantry school has been taken away from Fort Sill, and that has been turned over to the field ar¬ tillery. Senator Smith. Col. Wyllie, of the General Staff, has some figures, I think should be put in the record. The Chairman. Very well. STATEMENT OF COL. R. E. WYLLIE. The Chairman. Please give your name, rank, and present tour of duty to the stenographer. Col. Wyllie. I am chief of the equipment branch of the General Staff. Senator Smith. I want you to explain to the committee the con¬ ditions with reference to expense at Columbus, especially with ref¬ erence to the cost of constructing the plant, and what further out¬ lay, in your opinion, in money will be necessary, and what material is in reach that could be economized by utilizing it there and why? Col. Wyllie. The estimates—this has been mentioned to-day—for the construction of this camp, were $14,000,000. Those estimates, in the first place, were based on war-time conditions, and we are now’—and all of our construction work as a matter of fact is based on economical work and not on rush v T ork such as we had to do during the war. That will cut down that $14,000,000 quite a lot. In the next place, the construction division- Senator Sutherland. How much will it cut it to ? Col. Wyllie. I would not want to say definitely. For example, I might sav that the railroad which is being constructed now dow’n there if this camp is retained, will cost about 75 per cent of the estimated cost. So, taking that as a basis, we cut off 25 per cent from the $14,000,000. Senator McKellar. Do you know of any camp that has been built for less than the estimate, either in war or peace time? 102 I.AND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Wyllie. No; I do not know that I do. Senator Smith. You do not know of any built in peace that were estimated in war? Col. Wyllie. No, sir. Senator McKellar. We will soon know about those. Col. Wyllie. The second point is, the Government now has on hand about $26,000,000 worth of material which had been purchased prior to the signing of the armistice, for construction work, which was then ordered, but which has been since canceled. Senator McKellar. Do you think we ought to construct it any¬ how, because we have it? If we start on that policy it will cost just as much to run the Army in peace time as during war times, if we must take care of these things. For instance, we have three million and a half men- Col. Wyllie. The salvage value of that will be nowhere near what would pay for it. Senator McKellar. If we put it into construction work and it cost us $14,000,000 in one place, and we have to pay that $14,000,000 out, and make big appropriations to keep it going for time im¬ memorial, it would seem better to burn the $26,000,000 worth of lumber or get what we can for it now. Senator Smith. Of course, unless you need it. Senator McKellar. Oh ! of course. Senator New. You spoke of this $26,000,000 worth of material that the Government had purchased, and now has on hand, without any particular use for it, unless you go ahead with the Columbus or some other camp. Has the Government canceled its orders for ma¬ terials which were placed prior to the 11th day of November? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator New. Those orders have been canceled? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator New. About what date were they canceled? Col. Wyllie. That differs on the different projects. Immediately on the 11th of November, that very day, the question was taken up, and we went through all the projects, one by one, determining such as should be canceled and such as should be continued. Of course, it could not all be done in a day, but it went along for the next two or three weeks to a month, and we canceled practically as much as we could. Senator McKellar. Are the lumber mills anywhere delivering lumber to the Government? Col. Wyllie. I could not say. Senator McKellar. Could you furnish the committee any informa¬ tion it could put in the record on this subject? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator Sutherland. As you have this lumber that you can not use except to put in some unfinished project, would not the materials you use for this project still further reduce your estimate or would you expect to absorb this in your estimate ? Col. Wyllie. That would be a part of the money we estimated to spend on the project. Senator Sutherland. It was in the amount? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; part of it. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 103 Senator Smith. He was interrupted before he finished his other statement. What savings can you make by utilizing this material at points contiguous to this point, in Montgomery, Atlanta, Au¬ gusta, and Greenville, S. C., and points around there? Col. Wyllie. The only material which would have to be purchased, which the Government does not now possess, would be metal lathing, which would be a few hundred thousand dollars. All of the remain¬ ing material is on hand. Senator McKellar. Are you building anywhere else? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir: at some places. Senator McKellar. Where? Col. Wyllie. Fayetteville, N. C., West Point, Ky.—well, there are some few small things going up elsewhere. Those are the only two things of importance. Senator Sutherland. To what extent would that reduce the ac¬ tual expenditures to on this project? Col. Wyllie. It keeps it down to the question of labor only. We estimate the labor would cost $4,000,000. Senator Sutherland. That would be the total amount involved, then, of new money on this project, if you completed it according to your present plans? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator Sutherland. Including freight, etc., on this material? Col. AYyllie. From five to five and a half million dollars, possibly six million. The lumber is in camps, within 200 or 250 miles of Columbus, at Camp McClelland, at Anniston, and Greenville, Au¬ gusta, and Atlanta. Senator McKellar. Why was this large amount of lumber pur¬ chased at this period? Col. Wyllie. We were extending those camps. Senator Thomas. Due to the second draft? Col. Wyllie. Due to the draft which was coming in this winter. Senator Smith. If you erected a school of arms, or a school cover¬ ing what it is said we need—a school of arms, small firing arms, ma¬ chine-gun training, and tanks—and handled them all at one place, would it be economical to handle them all at one place? Col. Wyllie. It would be much more economical to handle them at one place because of the overhead required for maintenance. It simply mieans the overhead for one school instead of four. Senator McKellar. How could that be, if you are to continue the other four schools. I can understand how there might be some sav¬ ing in this particular department, but if you are going to main¬ tain those ^schools elsewhere and build this additional school at $ 14 , 000 , 000 . I do not understand how you can save. Col. Wyllie. We are not going to run the other schools. Senator McKellar. You still have overhead at the others. Col. AYyllie. No, sir; we are abandoning two schools, one of them the machine-gun school at Augusta, the other the tank school at Raleigh. Senator McKellar. There will not be any cantonment at those places ? Col. Wyllie. No, sir. Senator New. How long ago was the machine gun school estab¬ lished at Augusta? 104 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Wyllie. At the beginning of the war—it was one of the National Guard camps. Senator Johnson. May I express one thought that occurs to me? As I listen to this testimony, it appears to me we are putting the cart before the horse in determining as to specific individual camps. Is it not wiser for us to decide what our military establishment is going to be, whether we are going to proceed with universal train¬ ing and the like, and learn exactly and scientifically what will be required for the military establishment we expect to have in time of peace in this country? Otherwise, we are going to be in the situation of having all of these various camps, and all of these vari¬ ous schools in one form or another maintained, because the argument for each is quite persuasive, but, if we went at the matter as if we were going at some business concern, or the building of some par¬ ticular constructive plan, would not we at once determine on our military establishment, what army in peace we are going to have,, and how we are going to train it, what we are going to do, and then decide upon what expenditures are to be made in its behalf and determine those expenditures with accuracy and decision? The Chairman. I have been hoping that the War Department would send us some plan, worked out by the General Staff or War Department itself, that will do just what you suggest, but nothing" has come from them, and if the Military Affairs Committee- Senator New. I will say in that connection that I was informed by what I consider absolutely correct authority, the first of De¬ cember, that a plan coming from the War Department authorita¬ tively would be in the hands of this committee before the end of the month of December. The Chairman. It has worked out that it has not been submitted to the Chairman. If it has been submitted to any member of the Committee, the Chairman has not been advised of it. Senator McKellar. I endorse everything that Senator Johnson has said. It seems to me it is exceedingly extravagant and futile to decide these matters in advance of the expected plans from the War Department. I think the War Department should be asked to submit such a plan. Senator Sutherland. Let us know whether such a plan has been prepared by the General Staff. Col. Wyllie. I do not know, sir. Senator Thomas. I agree with Senator Johnson also, but for the purpose of this hearing, I think we should hear these witnesses. Senator Johnson. I do not want to interrupt the hearing, but in connection with the nebulous ideas concerning the demobiliza¬ tion of the troops, and the maintenance of these cantonments in this country, I wished to make that observation. It is impossible for us to know what is to be done with men in service, who went in service for the war on Germany, and are in service in this coun¬ try. We should know that with absolute accuracjL Senator Smith. Now, Colonel, if you locate a small-arms firing school, a machine-gun training school, and tanks anywhere in the country, would not this $10,000,000 cost be upon you for the erec¬ tion of suitable buildings? Col. Wyllie. Unless you disposed of something else that is as nec¬ essary as this. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 105 Senator Smith. Is there any other place where you could with greater economy use this material you have on hand? Col. Wyllie. No, sir. Senator Smith. Is it not, to a considerable extent, centrally lo¬ cated with reference to it ? Col. Wyllie. It is central to most of these places at which we have this material. Senator Smith. The use of that material will bring d°wn your expense in round numbers practically one-half of the estimated cost of construction? Col. Wyllie. That is, approximately. Senator Smith. If that material were allowed to go out and be scrapped, and junked, and disposed of, and salvaged, and you wanted to buy material again for such a construction, you w T ould have that loss? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. You were designated by Gen. March as one of the officers of the staff to come here? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. And these other officers were ? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; all of them. STATEMENT OE MR. FRANK HUGH GARRARD. The Chairman. Please give the stenographer your name, residence, and occupation ? Mr. G arrard. Frank Hugh Garrard, Columbus, Ga. I am the at¬ torney for 40,262 acres of land which are in this military reservation out of the 155,000 acres involved. I should say there are 33,741 acres of that land where the property owmers have answered in the con¬ demnation proceedings, admitting the allegations for the bill and admitting that the Government has alreadj 7 acquired title and gone into the possession of their land. There are 6.521 acres where the answer has not been filed and the parties have not been served. The Chairman. These have appeared in tne condemnation pro¬ ceedings ? Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And have alleged the value of their particular holdings ? Mr. Garrard. Yes. sir. The Chairman. Has the Government joined issue with them on the value ? Mr. Garrard. There has been no appraiser appointed for that raluation. I will say that the bill which was filed on November 2, that it was to appear on January 4. They filed their answers at that time. The Government land agents have been going along and making trades with these peoples for the property. I have the information that there is over 28,000 acres of ground whereby they have actually agreed on the valuation at a cost in round numbers, of something like $750,000. That part is w T here the Government authorities and the land owners have agreed as to the price and there is a contract be¬ tween them. They have agreed on those values. In the condemnation proceedings, where these answers were filed, the valuations have not been agreed upon. These parties would probably have agreed with 106 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. the Government agents from the land department but under the terms of this bill they had to file answers to keep from being in de¬ fault, on January 4. Senator Smith. There has been no failure to agree ? Mr. Garrard. No, sir; it is not a question of agreeing on the values, but on account of the large number of acres, it has been slow in handling those valuations and getting the appraisals all made. Senator Smith. The Government agents have not themselves ar¬ rived at an estimate of what they are willing to give ? Mr. Garrard. That is exactly true. Senator Smith. Now, Mr. Garrard, these answers concede title in the Government, and simply take steps to proceed with fixing the values. That is the situation ? Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir; that is true. Now, I want to say that of these people who are in the reservation, they were ordered to move from that reservation by printed notice and by individual service. A great many of those people have moved away. A great many of them are very small holders, and they have made other purchases, and they can not go back and take charge of these farms which they have abandoned, on account of the labor situation, and be able to get them back in the same position that they were in, in a great many years. Their labor was their greatest asset. That has been abso¬ lutely overthrown, and they have gone into other places. My clients contend that when the condemnation proceedings were filed and the Government went in control of this land, they acquired title by filing the condemnation proceedings, and the question of payment was a mere detail either through agreement with the arbitrators or agree¬ ment with this committee. I will say, when the answers are filed, an appraiser is suggested by the landowner, and, under our Georgia law, the Government ap¬ points an agent, and in the event there can not be any agreement be¬ tween them, then the question would be brought before a jury for determination. The proceedings would be filed in the United States court but the Georgia statutes would prevail as to the manner of the condemnation under the act. Senator Thomas. When does the Georgia court hold the title to pass—at the time it is taken or with the award? Mr. Garrard. I will state, that on this particular matter, there has never been a Georgia case. There is no decision on that. Senator Thomas. But you have Georgia cases under the State law that have gone to the Supreme Court? Senator McKellar. When does it ordinarily pass? Mr. Garrard. Ordinarily, the title would pass with the award. In the case of a corporation exercising the power of eminent domain, it would pass with the award, but in this case, with the specific act passed, that they are operating under now, the contention is—I will state what is my opinion—that it would be from the filing of the condemnation bill, but the courts have not passed upon it. Senator Thomas. As attorney for these people, you have examined that matter? Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir. Senator Thomas. And that is your opinion? Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 107 Senator Smith. What proportion of these people have gone out and created liabilities under contracts which they can only meet by the Government taking their land and paying them? Mr. Garrard. In answer to that question, my answer would have to be purely a question of estimate, but I would say that 75 per cent of the people in that total area have already made arrangements as to where they would move. For instance, on December 1, when the first rifle range was established, it happened to be in a thickly settled part, and those people have had to move, and they have yielded possession of their property, and have moved off entirely. Some of the others had until February 1 to move, but the question of their moving—most of them are farmers—they had to move prior to January 1 for the reason that if they did not start their moving now they will lose next year’s crop, and for that reason they have been probably faster in moving than they would have been if given more time. Senator Smith. Having made these moves and purchased or rented and completed their other arrangements, is it possible for them to go back to this land ? Mr. Garrard. It is not. Senator McKellar. There are a great many who have not been notified to move or who would not move untii the 1st of March or February 1? Mr. Garrard. Yes, sir; some the 1st of March and some the 1st of April and some the 1st of February, according to how they would get the shooting ranges fixed. Senator McKellar. You do not know how many in Chattahoochee have moved out? Mr. Garrard. In answer to that question, one of the gentlemen that lived in the Chattahoochee section, in Chattahoochee County— in one particular section—I asked him if he could give me the names and percentage of the people who had already moved and he said 95 per cent of the people in his neighborhood had vacated and given possession of their land to the Government. Senator Smith. You were asked if this notice did not run until February or March or April 1. While that was true, as they had to leave, was it not necessary for the farmers to go at once to make their other arrangements? Mr. Garrard. Absolutely. A great many of them who probably had until April 1 did move because if they did not they would have lost their crop this year. Senator Smith. Were there not a great many small farmers on that ground—100-acre men? Mr. Garrard. There are a great many of those very small farmers in that territory who absolutely, to use a common expression, were up in the air as to what to do. They received their notice to move and have gone out and purchased in Alabama, and other portions of Muscogee and Chattahoochee Counties, and have left there for the reason that they could not remain there any longer. Those people are not able to finance themselves. They have gone to work and bought their property on a credit basis, and the hardship on them would certainly be very great in the event that they, at this time, were even given their lands back, for the reason they have 108 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. lost what labor they had, and in addition to that, in a great many instances, they have sacrificed their live stock. Senator McKellar. Assuming that to be correct, would it not be very much to the advantage of your county and to your State— the portion of your State in that county—if the Government is not going to build a cantonment there—would it not be better for the Government to pay to the people, let us say, how much you have lost? We want to make not only full but ample reparation for losses, taking into consideration all such labor losses, etc., and let them have their lands back, in addition,, and would it not be very much better than for the Government to take over the land and move everybody out of them, and then abandon it and leave it there without the power vested in the county to tax it? Mr. Garrard. In answer to that question, I will answer that as chairman of the board of county commissioners of my county— 1 happen to hold that position. I wfill state that in Muscogee County, if every one of these people who were in this area, which possibly would be an area covering about 40 per cent of the county, that the county would be very much better off for the cantonment to go on than it would be to leave these people in there, because there are other corresponding benefits which the county would derive. Senator McKellar. But suppose the cantonment is not built. I am assuming it is not going to be built. Would it not be better for your county to keep the people there than to make them go to Alabama or some other State, and make them full reparation? I think we ought not to be niggardly about it, and that we should make them whole in every way in the world, and would it not be better for the county and these people—certainly those who have not left the land—to receive the land back? Would it not be better for the county and your State and the people ? Mr. Garrard. Of course, if the Government takes the land over there would be no taxes derived by the county. Senator McKellar. In the event the Government took over the property, the Government would have an idle domain and the county would have a blot on its industrial and farming industries. Mr. Garrard. There would be some vacant land unless the Govern¬ ment should use it. Senator Thomas. In your county would the area involved in this proposed cantonment be 40 per cent of the area of the county, or is 44) per cent of the reservation in your county ? Mr. Garrard. About 40 per cent of the area of the county. Senator McKellar. Then, that would leave 60 per cenjt in Chatta¬ hoochee ? Mr. Garrard. Between 50 and 60 per cent would be in Chatta¬ hoochee County. Senator McKellar. If the Government is forced to take these lands over at a price agreed upon by a jury—that is what it means a jury litigation—nobody knows it better than you and I, because we have both had these cases many times—the Government comes along and takes it over and moves the people out; the Government has no use for the land; the families on the land have moveji out of the county and your county has lost that much, and the county has lost that much taxable land. Now, would it not be better if the Govern¬ ment, instead of taking over this land and getting the people off of LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 109 the land, would give them full reparation and let them keep the lands, and you keep the people in your counties? Mr. Garrard. I should say, if the Government was simply going to take it over and leave it vacant, it would be better for the county, but we are assuming that the school would be built and go on and be used for the purposes for which it was condemned. The Chairman. If there is nothing further we will call Mr. Minter. STATEMENT OF MR. C. 0. MINTER. The Chairman. Please state your full name, residence, and occupa¬ tion to the stenographer. Mr. Minter. C. C. Minter. I reside at Cusseta, Ga. The Chairman. What is your business? Mr. Minter. Well, I am an attorney and farmer. I have farming interests. The Chairman. Within this proposed military reservation? Mr. Minter. I have a small amount of land in this military reser¬ vation that I am not particularly interested in; I am representing my •county of 8,000 rural population. The Chairman. Are there any large towns in that county? Mr. Minter. Cusseta, the county seat, is the only large community. The Chairman. Do you represent anybody in these proceedings? Mr. Minter. I represent about 98 per cent of the population. The Chairman. You also represent, as paid counsel, some of these people ? Mr. Minter. I also represent some of these people, without fee. They are defraying my expenses only. Senator McKellar. Do they want those lands taken over? Mr. Minter. No, sir. Senator McKellar. Do you represent the county commissioners of Chattahoochee? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir: and the rural population of both counties. Senator McKellar. You mean the population within the military zone? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Ninety-eight per cent of them. Mr. Minter. Ninety-eight per cent of them are opposed to this camp. Senator Thomas. The other 2 per cent must be here. Mr. Minter. The other 2 per cent are representing the city of Columbus, and those represent the city of Columbus and the cham¬ ber of commerce. The county of Chattahoochee, from which I come, has 165,000 acres total area. They are taking 72,000 acres of the landed area. It has 5,537 population. They are taking 3,300 of the population within this camp zone. It has a taxable value on the tax digest of $2,000,000—that is, the part in Chattachoochee. I am divid¬ ing it by counties. The entire county has a taxable value of $2,000,- 000 on the tax digest. That is, of course, a very low valuation. There is $1,300,000 of that $2,000,000 within the camp zone in Chattahoo¬ chee County. Senator McKellar. That leaves you $700,000 of taxable value for the entire county? 110 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the camp zone runs within half a mile of the county seat and zigzags around on three sides. Senator Thomas. Do they leave you the county seat ? Mr. Minter. Yes, the county seat. That is about all. Now, I have made it a personal matter to find out how many of the land- owners and home-owners, and residents, living on the farms, have left their farms. Two have left. I could call those by name. Senator McKellar. White or black? Mr. Minter. There are some Negro tenants that have moved out. Now, as to how many of those who have moved I do not know—and a few white tenants have left. I am speaking only of the land- owners. Senator McKellar. Two landowners have moved out? Mr. Minter. Only two. Senator Thomas. Is the bulk of the population a tenantry, or free¬ holders ? Mr. Minter. About half and half. Those that want to sell are mostly those that do not live on the land. Many of them do not live even m the county. Those that own land in our county that want to sell, live in the city of Columbus. Our people do not want to sell at any price—it means almost the annihiliation of Chattahoochee County. That is true of the 50,000 acres they have taken from Muscogee County. There is one of the farmers from Muscogee County, rep¬ resenting that end of it, with myself. We were selected by various mass meetings held in these rural districts, largely attended. Senator McKellar. Now that the war is over, you gentlemen want to go back to work? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; we want to see things settled definitely. I happen to represent some of those that Mr. Garrard spoke of as hav¬ ing filed answers for. One, particularly, has 7,000 acres of land. He does not want to sell at any price. Senator McKellar. Who is it? Mr. Minter. Mr. Weems. Has Mr. Van Horn’s answer been filed? Mr. Garrard. It has. Mr. Minter. Mr. Van Horn has also contributed to my expenses in coming here. They will not ask the Government for any remu¬ neration. They do not want to sell it for any price. As to damages, there has been sustained a little damage on some farms. Mr. Bus¬ sey, at which the camp is immediately located, has the most beauti¬ ful country home in the State. Senator McKellar. They did not put the rifle range in his home. Mr. Minter. They have the range right at his home. If the Gov¬ ernment purchased those farms, it would cost them an average of $100 an acre. That would be cheap. There are many of them worth twice that much. Of course, there are some cheap tracts that would bring the average down. Senator McKellar. Do you have condemnation proceedings in Georgia in which you could get these matters put through in two or three weeks? • Mr. Minter. No, sir. Senator McKellar. The same rule applies there as generally ? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Ill Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Now, there is only about one-fourth or one-fifth of these property owners who have been served. I have a copy of the notice with me. Senator Sutherland. When were they served? Mr. Minter. Some time in December—possibly in the early part of December. Senator Sutherland. All since the armistice has been signed? Mr*. Minter. All since the armistice has been signed Senator Sutherland. How many were served before the armi¬ stice ? Mr. Minter. I do not think any were served. In fact, no op¬ position would have sprung up at all if the armistice had not been signed. Senator McKellar. Mr. Crowell, have actual condemnation pro¬ ceedings been filed in other cases than this? Have you had re¬ course to condemnations in other cases? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I think so. Senator McKellar. I do not mean amounts paid, but I want to know if court proceedings have been instituted at other camps generally like this. This seems, from my reading of it, a blanket bill to condemn all lands alleged to be needed by the Government. So far as anything I know of, no other proceeding like that, in other camps, has been filed, and I was wondering if there was a parallel case; and, if not, why was this proceeding started in this case ? Assistant Secretary Crowell. I can not give you the details. The Chairman. Let us confine ourselves to this case, Senator. Senator McKellar. This applies directly to it. The Chairman. You can proceed, Mr. Minter, with your testi¬ mony. Mr. Minter. As to the beginning, or the history of this camp, in the beginning of the efforts to get a camp at Columbus, they first located it entirely in the county of Muscogee, but they finally abandoned that and came to Chattahoochee, just about the middle of October, and began operations there. Now, in my opinion, from two to three hundred thousand dollars will cover the damages that have been done to everybody. Senator McKellar. In your county? Mr. Minter. In my county and in Muscogee, and would pay them liberally. There are only a few people who have been actually damaged, whose property has been torn up. Mr. Arthur Bussey is perhaps the largest one, and a few others, where they have gone through with the railroad. Senator McKellar. Do you represent a great many of them? Mr. Minter. I represent practically the entire population of the camp zone—at least 98 per cent. In my county they have agreed with only three men who own land, on values. There are about 150 property owners in my county within this camp zone, and they have succeeded in three months’ time in agreeing with about three that live on their farms. Senator Thomas. If I understand you correctly, Mr. Minter, those who advocate the location of the camp, are the urban population of the city of Columbus? 112 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator McKellar. Or nonresident landowners. Senator Thomas. And the farming section of the two counties, by an overwhelming majority, are opposed? Mr. Minter. Practically unanimously. The Chairman. Are you positive of that? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I am sure. The Chairman. Because there has been testimony so in conflict with your testimony as to the number of farmers that have moved off. Mr. Minter. I have been in closer touch, probably, than any other man who has testified, because myself and a few others are the only ones that have represented them and we have canvassed the situation in the entire territory. The Chairman. Have you met the individuals who owned the land? Mr. Minter. I have seen the individuals. The Chairman. Within what time? Mr. Minter. Within the fast two or three weeks. Senator Thomas. Do you mean owners or tenants? Mr. Minter. I mean landowners. I have seen them since the armi¬ stice w as signed, practically every resident landowner. I do not mean those in the city of Columbus who have land there and want to sell it. I mean the resident landowners, the real farmer who lives on the land and makes it his home. Senator McKellar. Your idea is that $400,000 would pay liber¬ ally for all damages that have been done? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; there has been no damage except to Mr. Bussey’s place, and where they have put in the railroad*, and maybe just ,a few T people who have lost their tenants. The only damage from that source would be remuneration, possibly, in rents. Senator Kellogg. Of course they should be remunerated liberally. Mr. Minter. There are some of those. There is no material dam¬ age, much, except to Mr. Bussey’s place. That is where they built the camp. The Chairman. Did they destroy his home? Mr. Minter. No, sir; they proposed making an officers’ quarters of that. It is a very beautiful home and they have erected an office building in the rear of it, in a beautiful oak grove. The Chairman. Have they destroyed the grove? Mr. Minter. No, sir; not entirely. I think they have destroyed a little of it, where they wanted to erect the building. Senator McKellar. I fancy the damage that has been sustained by these gentlemen is easy of ascertainment ? Mr. Minter. I think so. The Chairman. They are men, for instance, whose tenants were driven off the land? Mr. Minter. Well, the rentals of those farms for a year would be easily ascertainable. I think it could be adjusted that way. The Chairman. Even if he did not raise any crop this year ? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You might have to pay something for the monev lost in attending to getting some other home ? Mr. Minter. That is the only damage I see. and possibly a little timber that has been used—not much. In addition to this land. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 113 there are acres and acres of virgin-pine timber in this reservation that is very valuable, and one of the gentlemen with me has, I sup¬ pose, $300,000 worth of timber rights all over this county, who has ]ust started up there, Mr. Bergen, of the Bergen Timber Co., who has bought the timber rights all over the land. They have somewhere about $300,000 in this land, and there are millions and millions of feet of timber. The Chairman. Has this land been condemned ? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; it is condemned under this bill. This area produced, in agriculture yearly—I have made some figures on that— it is almost absolutely accurate .from the cotton end of it. That runs about $11,000,000 of production under the boll-weevil conditions. Before the boll weevil came it ran about twenty millions. The bal¬ ance of the agricultural production is, of course, a guess and an esti¬ mate—live stock and dairy products and grains of all kinds, but I am pretty sure it is as great as the cotton production. Even under boll-weevil conditions, the agricultural production of this 120,000- acre area, in both counties, will run easily about $25,000,000. Senator Wadsworth. Is your estimate based on 30-cent cotton? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir: prevailing prices for the State and cotton at the present time. That is based on a little less than half crops. That is under boll-weevil conditions. Crops have been considerably reduced recently. The Chairman. Will there be much damage sustained by a man like the gentleman here who has testified, Judge Wynn? Mr. Minter. No, sir; Judge Wynn, you might say, does not live on the land. He comes and stays there in the summer time. He is practically a citizen of the city of Columbus. The Chairman. Take the case of a man who has given up his holdings and gone and borrowed money from the banks. Mr. Minter. One of those men has had ample funds to live where he pleases. He says he is perfectly satisfied, and wants to return to his home, although he has bought another home. One of the men is not in such good circumstances. He has bargained for a home in Alabama, and would have to get the money from the Government for •this land, to pay for it. The Chairman. If you were representing the Government to adjust these claims, do you think you would have any difficulty in adjusting them? Mr. Minter. No sir. The Chairman. You think it could be dene for $300,000? Mr. Minter. Yes sir. Senator Thomas. Could it be done within the range of $750,000? Mr. Minter. That would be very exorbitant. As I say, the damage to Mr. Bussey’s farm, and those four or five tracts the railroad runs through—it has been practically completed and of course those people would be entitled to damages along the right of wav where they have cut the timber. Senator McKellar. Could the railroad be used for any other purpose? Mr. Minter. I rather think it will result in a permanent rail- Senator McKellar. Which would be of great value for that land ? 99137—19-8 114 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; there is a charter to build a railroad just where it runs. It runs down the beautiful, fertile Chattahoochee Valley. There is no more beautiful tract of land than this. The creek there they have just spanned with a very long trestle. That was one of the big expenses they met within the building of this road. It is practically completed. The creek there is the dividing line between my county and Muscogee County. Senator McKellar. How much of this railroad is in your county ? Mr. Minter. It is just entering the county. The railroad is just on the edge of the county. Senator McKellar. How far is your county seat from the end of the railroad? Mr. Minter. About 16 miles. Senator McKellar. Any railroad connection between your county seat and Columbus? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the Seaboard and the Central of Georgia. Senator McKellar. Then this railroad, running through another portion of the county would be valuable? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; it furnishes a connection with the Central and the Seaboard and goes down the river. These two lines run toward my county seat. It is enough to develop this section, and in years past they have relied on the river boating, and that has been very unsatisfactory on acount of the filling of the stream. The rail¬ road is very much needed. Senator McKellar. The establisment of this railroad would be of value anyhow. Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the building of this road, by just about 15 more miles of it, would connect with the main line of the Seaboard, at a little place on the river, and would save to the Seaboard on the western haul 43 miles. It would give them a cut across and save them a distance of about 43 miles, and I rather think that might have been behind that project in putting up the railroad up this river. I have two other gentlemen here with me from my county. Senator Smith. I want to ask Mr. Minter a few questions. The Chairman. Well, we will take a recess now until half past 2 o’clock. (Whereupon a recess was taken until 2.30 o’clock p. m.) AFTER RECESS. The hearing was resumed at 2.30 o’clock p. m., pursuant to the tak¬ ing of recess, Senator Thomas presiding. Senator Thomas. Had you finished, Mr. Minter ? Mr. Minter. I have a few observations to make. Senator Thomas. You may proceed. STATEMENT OF MR. C. C. MINTER—Resumed. Mr. Minter. I want to add to what I have already said that the country people of Muskogee county and my county never invited the camp at any time. We got this one without an invitation. Senator Thomas. That is a somewhat unique experience in the last few years. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 115 Mr. Minter. Our efforts here may be unique themselves. Gener¬ ally they try to get a little. We are asking not to be given so much from the Government. • Senator McKellar. You want to be let alone? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. * Senator McKellar. Do you hold an official position in the State of Georgia ? Mr. Minter. Not at all—none whatsoever. Senator McKellar. Were you ever State senator? Mr. Minter. I was State senator at one time. My term has expired. Senator McKellar. Has it expired ? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the only office, except the mayorship of my town, which was not remunerative—no salary attached to it. It was the only office I ever ran for. Senator Thomas. Just proceed with your statement. Mr. Minter. This project was begun by the chamber of commerce, and they have, I suspect, expended quite a large sum of money. They have kept representatives in Washington from the beginning of the war until this particular project was decided upon and brought to the city of Columbus. Senator Smith. What was your statement? Mr. Minter. I say the chamber of commerce and citizens of Colum¬ bus began their efforts to get a camp located at Columbus, with the inception of the war, practically, and have been working continuously since then to land a cantonment. I do not thing they were out for a military reservation like they have got, but they wanted a canton¬ ment, and at one time they did take options on a different section of the country, part of which was in Chattahoochie County, in the northern part, a very much poorer part than this, for an artillery school, I think, or an artillery ground. Senator Smith. Don’t you know that a commission from the Army came down there and asked them for it and they took those options at the request of the Army officers ? Mr. Minter. No, sir; I do not know that, Senator. Senator Smith. You do not know much about it? Mr. Minter. I know the chamber of commerce did, because I took many options myself, personally. The options were made to the chamber of commerce, with a clause in there agreeing that they would transfer the thing to the Government—something of that kind. I am sorry I did not bring the options with me. They got a great many of them, mostly in the northern part of Chattahoochie County and part of Muscogee, a different territory from that now occupied. Senator Smith. I ask you, don’t you know a committee of Army officers came down there and went over the ground and asked them to get the options for the Artillery camp, and it was done at the in¬ stance of the Army committee? Mr. Minter. That might have been. I do not know that. I do not know whether they did or not, but I rather think it occurred this way: They went ahead and got the options and invited the officers down afterwards. Senator Smith. You do not know that the Army officers were there without their invitation? Mr. Minter. I remember when the Army officers were there, look¬ ing over the ground. That was after the options were obtained. I 116 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. helped obtain the options myself. That was at the time when the war was running in the early part of 1917, or soon after the war be¬ gan. I do not know, but I think it was in September, 1917, when thpse options .were taken, and all of those options expired on the 10th day of December, 1917. I took thousands of dollars worth of them myself. The Army officers came there afterwards. Senator Smith. The Army officers went there before. Mr. Minter. I do not know that. Senator Smith. But you ought to know that. Mr. Minter. It seems to me that that project fell down, and they kept representatives here and Mr. Betcherman stayed here .month after month, besides a number of other representatives of the cham¬ ber of commerce from the city of Columbus, and I was invited to attend a dinner not very long ago, a get-together dinner, when they presented to Mr. Betcherman a loving cup and a check for $2,500 for securing the camp for the chamber of commerce of the city of Columbus. That was just early in December, that that took place, Senator McKellar. Who was Mr. Betcherman? Mr. Minter. He is a gentleman who lives in the city of Columbus, and was representing the chamber of commerce, I suppose, and others—those that were behind this project. This was entirely a project—I mean as to the local end of it—by the chamber of commerce and citizens associated with them, and within the city of Columbus, a town of about 25,000 people. There were two-thirds to three-fourths of the population of Columbus op¬ posed to this camp, but it is a subdued undercurrent of opposition. They are business people and will not come out in the open and fight the proposition. It is a large cotton manufacturing town. Every mill in that town is opposed to it. Senator Thomas. You say they are opposed to it? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I mean the business end of it. They have there a very large iron works. There is one of the largest iron works in the South in Columbus that makes all of the plow holds for six or eight States, and various other tools—the Southern Plow Works. Senator Thomas. Why are they opposed to it? . Mr. Mtnter. I rather think it is from the labor standpoint, that it might make labor higher, perhaps, and for those reasons they do not want it. Senator Knox. If those interests' are all opposed to it, how did it happen that the chamber of commerce was so active in moving for the establishment of the camp there? Mr. Minter. Those very people, perhaps, many of them, have told me they contributed to the fund to secure a cantonment at Columbus to start with, through the Chamber of Commerce, but when it took this turn, and it became a proposition to establish a permanent affair there they changed their views about. I have had numbers of those citizens tell me that. They do not want a per¬ manent camp, with the turning out of the 8,000 rural population. For patriotic reasons they were willing to do their part while the war was running, but there are quite a number of interests in Colum¬ bus who are opposed to it, a very large number of mercantile and wholesale houses. They are opposed to that. They told me that, but being business men, it is a subdued current of opposition and LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. ' 117 they Avill not come out in the open. It is practically unanimous in the rural districts with the farmers who live on their farms. There are scarcely 2,000 men that live on the farms, who want to give up their farms at any price, and want to be moved and paid by the Government, even fabulous sums. Some farms are in the third and fourth generations. They are productive farms. I have one particu¬ lar farm in mind that produces an annual income of forty to fifty thousand dollars net. Those people who own it now have held it down to the fourth and fifth generation. They do not want to give it up at any price. . That same man has bought, I suppose, $50,000 worth of Liberty bonds and war-savings stamps, and has helped every other cause during the continuance of the war very liberally. He says he has not got any price on his land at all. Senator New. A cotton planter? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and lives on his farm. All the people, or nearly all of the people, who ivant to sell are those who own the land and live somewhere else—own land in the camp zone, but- do* not live on it. They rent mostly to negroes. We have very few white tenants. The owners live elsewhere, and the farms are many of them unprofitable and run down, but of the farmers who live on their land, 98 per cent do not want to sell at any price, and I am here representing them, free of charge, without any pay except my expenses. The Chairman. Could you give the names of the men who want to sell? Mr. Minter. G. S. Sammons, with a 1,600-acre tract—he wants to sell. Senator McKellar. Do you know the price he wants? Mr. Minter. Somewhere between $30 and $35 an acre. Senator McKellar. Is that a good price? Mr. Minter. It is a pretty good price. While it is not a large tract, he has some valuable land, but a heap of very poor land— washed-out land, in the hills. Senator New. You said you represented about 98 per cent of the landowners? Mr. Minter. Not the landowners, but those who live on their places. Senator New. Those who live on their farms ? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator New. About how many people are there that constitute that 98 per cent? Mr. Minter. About 3,300 population within my county. Senator New. That is the total population? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. There are about 3,300 within the camp zone living in my country. There are about 4,700 living in Muscogee County, making about 8,000 population. You see, as you approach the city of Columbus, it is very much more densely populated. Senator New. I am asking you how many people you really repre¬ sent ? Mi*. Minter. About 60 or 70 per cent of those that are owners, I should think, while many of those tenants are just as anxious to remain and do not want to go—of course they have no real interest in the value of the land—they do not own it. 118 LAND FOE AETILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator New. Do I understand, Mr. Minter, that you actually represent here approximately 4,000 land owners? Mr. Minter. No, sir; there are not that many landowners. It will run down very small, when it comes to landowners, because a man who owns his farm might have a family of ten or fifteen. That reduces the real ownership considerably. You might say I represent that family, because they are owners, as a rule. Senator New. Can you tell us approximately how many of these people now, of the landowners—how many own land in their own name ? Mr. Minter. Well, I think there is in the neighborhood of 300 or 400 landowners in the whole country. Senator New. Y r ou represent all but two of them? Mr. Minter. No, sir; I do not represent all the landowners. I represent the landowners who live on their land. Senator New. Represent landowners? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator New. How many of those 300 are resident landowners? Mr. Minter. Well, there are about—I should say 200, or 225, or 250. Senator New. A majority of them? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; a great majority. That is a guess on my part, you understand. Senator New. Did I understand you correctly, some time ago, to say that only two had moved away? Mr. Minter. Only two in my county that I know of, and 1 have a pretty accurate knowledge of the situation. Now, there might be one or two others. Mr. Christian has moved, and Mr. Gaiford has moved. Both of them have gone to Alabama. He is able to move anywhere he wants to. Senator McKellar. I suppose you know all these gentlemen who came here and are on the other side of the question—who present the other side of the question ? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. How many of them are land dwellers—resi¬ dents on the land? Mr. Minter. I do not think there is a single representative among the Columbus delegation that is a resident on any of those lands being condemned. They are all out of the city of Columbus. Senator McKellar. You know all of these gentlemen? Mr. Minter. Personally, every one. All of them, practically, are my personal friends. Senator McKellar. And those here in the room are all men who do not live on the land? Mr. Minter. No, sir; they live in the city of Columbus or its suburbs. Senator Smith. Does not Judge Wynn spend practically all his time on the land and have his residence there and stay there practi¬ cally the year around, directing his farming there? Mr. Minter. No, sir; his citizenship is in the city of Columbus. He goes and comes. His health is bad. Senator Smith. Doesn’t he spend 10 months on the farm ? Mr. Minter. No, sir; I really do not think he does. He really lives with his mother-in-law, who bought a farm about 10 months LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 119 ago—an adjoining farm to liis place. He does not spend his time on his place, but lives with Mrs. Fox, his mother-in-law. Senator Smith. Doesn’t he live on the farm and direct the farm¬ ing work from there? Mr. Min ter. Yes; but I should say, though, that he has spent nearly half of his time in the city of Columbus. The Chairman. How far is Columbus from his home? Mr. Winter. .Sixteen miles from the place at which he stays. The Chairman. On an automobile road? Mr. Winter. Yes, sir; one of the prettiest in Georgia—the county of Chattahoochee built it. The Chairman. And it only takes an hour to run it? Mr. Winter. Hardly that long—about 40 minutes. It is a very pretty road. All the road building Chattahoochee did is in the * camp zone, and the portion left outside of the camp zone is very poor. Senator Smith. Muscogee County built the road that you are speaking of, did it? Mr. Minter. No, sir; Chattahoochee built this road with a little aid. The Muscogee citizens contributed $3,450 to the building of the Cussetta road, the one I am speaking of as being such a pretty road, and it cost $20,000, and is about 10 or 12 miles long. Muscogee County promised to pay half of the expense, but they have never con¬ tributed over $3,450. That was the agreement when we started to build the road. Senator McKellar. This road will be entirely taken up with the Government project. Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. The other road the Senator refers to is through the camp zone, too, and while Muscogee County contributed largely to that, it is 10 miles from the county seat. It is the road that leads from Buena Yista. Senator Sutherland. Is there likely to be any claim from the county that built this road for this road improvement ? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I should think so. Senator Smith. Is it not the plan of the camp to keep the road open? Mr. Minter. The Buena Yista Road and the Cusseta Road are, I understand, to remain open to travel. There is one other public highway, a much-traveled highway, that will be closed, known as the River Road, the Lumpkin Road. Senator McKellar. If the citizens have to move out it will not be much used? Mr. Minter. No, sir; of course it will let us into the southwestern section. Senator Sutherland. It will be kept up at Government expense, will it not? Mr. Minter. I do not know. I represent the county commissioners in this instance, and they would, if the camp comes, make claim for remuneration for that road-building, and there are several other lateral roads that I have not mentioned that would be closed entirely to public travel. The Chairman. Mr. Garrard was one of the county commissioners. Mr. Minter. He is in another county. He represents the county 120 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. commissioners of Muscogee. I am also representing a farming ele¬ ment of Muscogee County, living on that forty or fifty^ thousand acres they are taking. Mr. Berry, a farmer, is here. We handled this by an organization. We organized at a mass meeting and many of them appointed an executive committee to handle this thing in Chattahoochee County. They have the same thing in Muscogee County. They appointed an executive committee and myself and another gentleman were selected to come to Wash¬ ington. Of course there are other gentlemen at the other end look¬ ing out for this. This is the second trip I have made. I conferred with Senator Smith and our Congressman at first, and we have been very active. The newspapers of the city of Columbus have sup¬ pressed all news in opposition to this camp. We have submitted articles, but we could not get them published. We finally got a little publicity through the Atlanta and Macon papers. That was gratui¬ tous, and then the Columbus papers reproduced some of those articles, in the last few editions. They would not reproduce anything that another paper said about it until this committee—and maybe there had been some other action in Washington—had taken some notice of the matter, and then the Columbus papers reproduced sev¬ eral articles, and incidentally jumped on me. The Chairman. You did not mind that, did you? Mr. Minter. Not a bit in the world. Senator Smith. You have stated that this land produced $10,000,- 000 worth of cotton. Mr. Minter. I said about $11,000,000 worth. Senator Smith. How many bales of cotton did your whole county produce last }^ear? Mr. Minter. The whole county’s production last year w T as about 2,800 or 3,000 bales. Senator. Smith. The whole county’s production was not worth anything like $10,000,000. Mr. Minter. The whole county, before the boll wevil came, pro¬ duced about 9,000 bales. Senator Smith. And cotton did not sell before the boll weevil at anything like the prices now ? Mr. Minter. No, sir. The Muscogee part produced a little more than we did. Senator Smith. You said that part of your county produced $10,000,000 worth of cotton? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. It produced last year, in all, 2,870' bales of cotton ? Mr. Minter. That is what I said. Senator Smith. Now half of that—what proportion of that was in this area. Mr. Minter. About two-thirds. Senator Smith. Then the value was a little over a million dollars, at 30 cents a pound ? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and the seeds were valuable. Senator Smith. Then, you have gotten entirely outside of the figures when you said $10,000,000 ? Mr. Minter. No, sir; I said before the boll weevil came it pro¬ duced more than that. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 121 Senator Smith. But it was not worth anything like that because it did not sell at 30 cents a pound. Mr. Minter. That was an off year last year. It was the shortest crop we have had in the history of the county. Senator Smith. And the highest price. Mr. Minter. The boll weevil ate it up. They planted peanuts and velvet beans. Senator Smith. How much was it in 1915? Mr. Minter. I do not remember. Senator Smith. Was it not less in 1915 than last year? Mr. Minter. No, sir; it was not. I remember it was over 9,000 in 1914. Now, that is the last year before the boll weevil started. Senator Smith. Then it was worth 5 cents a pound, certainly not over 6, in 1914. Mr. Minter. Well, I sold my crop at about. Ilf cents. Senator Smith. Don’t you know that cotton sold in 1914 at 6 cents a pound ? Mr. Minter. A little bit. Senator Smith. That was a big drop. Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; but most people held it in our county and got more than that. They held it until the tie-up was over. Senator Smith. It was worth and only produced 6 cents a pound in 1914. It never did produce a Crop that was worth half of $10,000,000. Don’t you know that is so—or a third of it or a fourth of it? Mr. Minter, No, sir; and I want to say this, Senator, that ours is an undeveloped county. Senator Smith. That is not what I asked you. I want to say to you that you are entirely off from the facts, that you are not even approximately accurate. Don’t you know that is true, that this county never pioduced even approximately $10,000,000 worth of cotton. Senator McKellar. How many bales did it amount to? Mr. Minter. Two thousand eight hundred and seventy. As I said, they cut down the acreage of cotton on account of the boll weevil and they planted velvet beans and peanuts. Senator Smith. I want to know where it stood about cotton. What was your statement about cotton ? Mr. Minter. My statement was that before the boll weevil came we produced over 9,000 bales. Senator Smith. Your statement was you produced $11,000,000 worth of cotton—produced it in this area in Chattahoochee County that the Government is taking, and I am just asking you and show¬ ing you that you are wrong. Mr. Minter. I said in both counties. Senator Smith. You said in your county. Mr. Minter. I said in the camp area. Senator Smith. In Chattahoochee County, in the camp area. Mr. Minter. I said in the camp area; they produced more cotton in Muscogee. Senator Smith. Don’t you know in both together they never pro¬ duced approximately any such figure? 122 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Mr. Minter. I think both of them together have produced as much as 21,000 or 23,000 bales of cotton. I have not got those figures exactly. Senator Smith. When you come to figure on anything, you have got to take the value of the cotton at the time it was produced. Mr. Minter. In the most recent years it has been cut in half on account of the boll weevil, and perhaps a little less than half in the last year. Senator Smith. Do you still insist that .your statement that $11,000,000 worth of cotton was produced is approximately true? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; under normal conditions it is approximately true. Senator Smith. But you have got to take the value of the cotton at the time you have the particular production. Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. Now, take each year and figure it. Mr. Minter. You can make those figures just as well as I can. Senator Smith. Select your year and I will make the figures. Mr. Minter. I have no figures. You have got what the produc¬ tion of the cotton crop was in that county. Senator Smith. Last year your production in the whole county was 2,877 bales, and your two-thirds of that amount at 30 cents a pound was only $1,137,000 instead of $11^000,000. Senator McKellar. Two-thirds of it— I have the figures here— amounts to $2,869,000. Mr. Minter. You put the cotton seed tonnage on that and it will run up another half million or more. I also modified that state¬ ment with this. I say that last year the cotton acreage was very materially reduced in all that section on account of the boll weevil and they raised other crops. Senator Sutherland. If you had raised your average crop last year you would have probably gotten your 30 cents? Mr. Minter. We would have gotten somewhere between $10,- 000,000 and $12,000,000 on the entire cotton area. Senator Smith. If the normal crop had been raised all over the South, it would not have sold for anything like 30 cents. Senator Sutherland. But figuring in your cotton products? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the seeds are very valuable. Last year I sold quite a few seeds at $85 a ton. Senator Sutherland. You hope to get rid of the boll weevil and resume production of your maximum crops? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; the boll weevil made its appearance in 1914. Senator Thomas. What will you do for appropriations in the Agriculture appropriations bill for that county if the boll weevil disappears? Senator Smith. You stated something about the number of people who had moved out. You stated that you represented 98 per cent of the property owners that live on their land. Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. Name the men who have employed you. Mr. Minter. I said about 98 per cent. Senator Smith. Name the men who have employed you. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 123 Mr. Minter. I think I have made that clear to the committee how I was representing them, that the thing had been handled by mass meetings, and the selection of executive committees. Senator McKellar. You had mass meetings about this thing? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and those mass meetings selected an execu¬ tive committee to handle the whole thing. They were given plenary powers to handle the situation. Senator McKellar. Where have they been held? Mr. Minter. Numbers of times. We had a mass meeting last week—two or three in both counties—and maybe the first was held in the middle of December; I am not sure of that. That executive committee selected myself and Mr. Bergen, who is with me, and Mr. Berry, from Muscogee County, to come to Washington and present this matter to the committee, if we could get a hearing. That is the way we represent them. I have personal knowledge that it is prac¬ tically unanimous, because I have ridden that section from one end to another, trying to serve my county. That is the main interest I have. I own a piece of land in that camp zone. I would be glad to sell it to the Government or anybody else, but I had rather keep the land than to remove these old farmers from their homes. Senator Smith. Coming back to your cotton again, I find that the Senator from Tennessee added a nought inadvertently in his calcu¬ lation. 3,000 bales of cotton at $150 a bale, is $450,000, and not $4,500,000, at 30 cents a pound; and if the whole production of your county had been increased to 3,000 bales, it would have amounted to $450,000. Senator Thomas. If you keep on, you will figure him down to zero. Senator Smith. I am figuring him where he belongs. Mr. Minter. I may have figured like the Senator from Ten¬ nessee, but that is what I figured on, though. Senator Smith. Just multiply 3,000 by $150 and see what you get. Mr. Minter. It figures $150,000 for a thousand bales, but I was basing it on a very conservative production in normal times—at 5,000 bales of cotton. Senator Smith. 5,000 bales of cotton would be $750,000 instead of $11,000,000, at 30 cents a pound, and when you had your normal production, it sold for 6 cents a pound. Senatr Thomas. You raised $11,000,000 worth in the State, how¬ ever, did you not? Senator Smith. Yes; but I was talking about this county. Mr. Minter. After going over the figures, I find I am in error. There was 5,000 bales raised. I was in error. It was just an error of calculation, but there is in normal times, about 8,000 bales of cot¬ ton raised in that area? Senator Smith. Not since the boll weevil. Mr. Minter. I said in normal times. That is not normal. Senator McKellar. The boll weevil is a subnormal bug. Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. You have not got the names of those people you say you represent : —you represent this committee? . Mr. Minter. I represent Mr. W. A.Weems and Mrs. F. M. Adams, who own 7,000 acres of land; I represent W. I. Van Horn and his 124 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. two maiden sisters who own about 7,000 acres of land—that is about 14,000 acres. That is not exactly correct; it is approximate. I repre¬ sent Mr. Parkman and practically everybody else. Senator Smith. Do you know where Tom Parkman is now ? Mr. Minter. No, sir; I saw him last week at the mass meeting at Harmony School. He contributed to the fund to pay for this com¬ mittee. Senator Smith. Has he not moved out of the county ? Mr. Minter. I do not know that he has. Senator Smith. Do you know where Pat McBride is? Mr. Minter. That is a negro? Senator Smith. I do not know. Has he not moved out of the county ? Mr. Minter. I do not know if he has. • Senator Smith. No ; he is white. Has not Sam McBride moved out of this district? Mr. Minter. If he has it is recently. Senator Smith. Has not Mrs. Lillian Schley moved out? Mr. Minter. I do not know. Senator Smith. Has not Bob Batey moved out? Mr. Minter. There is no such person unless he is colored. Senator Smith. Bob Batey? Mr. Minter. There may have been a colored man there b} 7 that name. Senator Smith. Has not Lane Talbott moved out? Mr. Minter. No, sir; he contributed to this fund. Senator Smith. Has he not bought a farm in Muscogee County? Mr. Minter. I do not know of that directly. He contributed to this fund. I know that. Senator Smith. Has not Hath Kelley moved out? Mr. Minter. Who is that? Senator Smith. A white man? Mr. Minter. I do not know anybody by that name. Senator Smith. Has not Jack Chester, ji\, moved out? Mr. Minter. I do not know. Senator Smith. Has not Albert Farr moved out? Mr. Minter. He had not moved out up to quite recently. Senator Smith. How about Tom Dalton? Mr. Minter. If he has moved out it has been quite recently, then. Senator Smith. Has not Cliff Clark moved out? Mr. Minter. He is a tenant. He is a negro. Senator Smith. Has not Dr. Sapp moved out? Mr. Minter. No, sir; I think not. Senator Smith. Has not Count Sapp moved out? Mr. Minter. No, sir; I think Count Sapp—yes, I think he has re¬ cently bought a farm in south Georgia. Senator Smith. Has not, Dr. Sapp gone out of Georgia—gone away with him? Mr. Minter. I don’t think so. Senator Smith. Are you sure? Mr. Minter. He may have gone. He does not want to go. He wants to come back, if he has gone. Senator Smith. Has not Will Sapp gone? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 125 Mr. Minter. He had not up to recently. Will Sapp, if he has gone, wants to come back. He told me so personally. He helped raise this fund. Senator Smith. Has not Tom Jenkins moved out? Mr. Minter. 1 could not tell you. He did not want to go, if he did go. Senator Smith. I didn’t say anything about whether he wanted to go. Has not Lee Willis left? Mr. Minter. I think not. He doesn’t want to go at any price. Mr. Jenkins told me the same thing. Senator Smith. Has not Drane Bullock moved out? Mr. Minter. He is a resident of Columbus. He owns a very fine farm there. He divides his time between his farm and the city of Columbus. Senator Smith. Has not Dr. Huer moved to Ellerslie? Mr. Minter. He might have. He owns a small tract of land. Senator Smith. Has not Charles McBride left and gone to Ala¬ bama ? Mr. Minter. If he did he went because he had to. He contributed to the fund. Senator Smith. Has not Bedford Layfield gone to Lumpkin, Ga. ? Mr. Minter. Practically every man you have named contributed to this fund. Senator Smith. Has not Bartow Psalmonds and his four sons left ? Mr. Minter. I don't think he has. He said he would give me a thousand dollars to keep the camp from coming there. Senator Smith. Has not Jim Oats moved to Alabama? Mr. Minter. That is a darky. I could not tell you about all those darkies. There are very few of the persons you have named who are landowners. Senator Thomas. The darkies don’t count, do they? Mr. Minter. Yes; they count all right. Senator Smith. Has not Andrew Schley moved out? Mr. Minter. I do not know. lie didn’t want to go, if he did. Senator Smith. Has not Albert Harris left, and moved to Harris County ? Mr. Minter. He may have. He is a tenant—just a cropper. Senator Smith. Has not Louis Buford moved to north Muscogee County ? Mr. Minter. I could not tell you. He has been on Mr. Van Horn’s place quite a long time. He did not want to go, if he did. Senator Smith. He is a tenant. Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; a negro. Senator Smith. Were not a number of the men I have named landoAvners? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and they will not claim any damages if the camp will go. Senator Smith. Have you any authority to speak for them—to waive all damages? Mr. Minter. In a general way. They told me they would rather have their homes than for the" Government to take them. Those who have been actually damaged, it would be right and just to pay them. 126 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Smith. For whom have you a right to waive damages and waive right to claim damages if the Government takes their land ? Mr. Minter. None at all, except in a general way. I have heard them discuss the thing, and know the situation, being on the ground where the damages are. You can not get damages unless you have been damaged. Senator Thomas. You can in some sections. Mr. Minter. I do not think the damage end of it will run very heavy. Those people are too anxious to stay where they are. Senator McKellar. Let me ask }mu this: Are there any churches or schoolhouses on this land? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; quite a number of them. Senator McKellar. And grave yards, etc.? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. People have been living there a long time? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. This camp will take in all tlie churches and grave yards and schoolhouses, etc.? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; and there is one, a rural school building, that I reckon is about the best in Georgia, if not the best, 8 miles east of Columbus, in the Muscogee part of this ground, a modern up- to-date graded school, a magnificient building. Senator McKellar. And it is proposed to take the schoolhouses- churches, and graveyards? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Old landmarks that have been there for some time? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I think it takes the poorhouse. Senator Thomas. Do you represent them? Mr. Minter. No, sir; Mr. Garrard represents that. Senator Smith. Didn’t you advertise for a joint meeting at the courthouse in Muscogee, of those who are opposed to this project? Mr. Minter. Dr. Huer and some others did, against my advice. Senator Smith. Were there not over 400 present and you did not get over 15 votes? Mr. Minter. I was in the city of Washington, and my informa¬ tion is that Dr. Huer did call a meeting for this in the city of Co¬ lumbus, for those who were opposed to the camp. That was the notice. 1 advised against it. I told him that the chamber of com¬ merce end of it would pack the house, which they did, and it rained in torrents, I told them they would pack the house. It poured in torrents for three days, and the people opposed to this project, the rural end of it—it was just imposible for them to get there. That is my information. I was in Washington at the time it took place. Senator McKellar. You advised against it? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. You thought they might pack it? Mr. Minter. I knew just what happened would happen. I knew the opposition w r as all in the rural districts. The Chairman. How many landowners were at the meeting? Senator McKellar. How many resident land owners? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 127 Mr. Minter. Mr. Berry was present. I understand 40 or 50. They went there in torrents of rain. It was almost impossible to reach it. It had been raining for three days. Senator Thomas. I understood the testimony was that it did not rain there at all. Mr. Minter. My information was that there were about 50. Mr. Berry can tell you. But, as I said, the other side packed the house. Senator Smith. How do you know that was done? Mr. Minter. That is my information. I told them that would happen and advised against a mass meeting. Senator McKellar. About this rain: I think there is some testi¬ mony that it did not rain there? Mr. Minter. It was raining when I left. Senator McKellar. Is it not the testimony that immediately after a rain they could use the land for all practical purposes? Senator New. This testimony that Mr. Minter has given is very reminiscent of some occurrences at Terra Haute, Ind. Mr. Minter. Unless there are some questions to be asked, I have nothing further. Senator Smith. I will ask you one more question. Did you say you have no contingent fee- Mr. Minter. Not a cent. This is all gratuitous on my part. I have had people come to me and tell me that if we could stop this camp they would be willing to give a very large sum of money to me, or to make a contract with me, but I have no agreement with anybody and don’t expect a cent from anybody. They knew per¬ sonally I was opposed to this as much as anybody. Senator McKellar. You are giving your time and they are paying your expenses, without any other compensation? Mr. Minter. Yes, sir; I have given about two months of my time, I suppose, to this matter, and the balance of the time—18 months— I gave to the Government on free work for the war. I was chair¬ man of the Liberty loan organization in my county, and the Red Cross, and they went over the top in every instance. As to the value of the cotton crop, I reached that from an error in calculation, because I figured a thousand bales would be a million and a half dollars. Senator McKellar. Oh, that is immaterial. Mr. Minter. It is immaterial, but I was honest in making that statement. I want the committee to understand that. Senator Thomas. Cotton may go to that. Senator McKellar. Here is hoping it will. STATEMENT OF MR. JOE S. BERGEN. The Chairman. Please give your name, address, and business to the stenographer. Mr. Bergen. Joe S. Bergen, secretary and treasury of the Bergen Lumber Co., a corporation, organized under the laws of Georgia, in Chattahoochee County. I live at Cuesta. We are manufacturers of pine lumber. The Chairman. Mr. Bergen, will you state very generally your views on the situation that has been discussed as to the propriety of 128 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. prosecuting this project or abandoning it. What, in your opinion, is the best thing to be done with it ? Mr. Bergen. Of course I am not a military man nor a lawyer. I am what you might say, a business man. Our corporation went there and bought this timber and established its plant in the town— in the corporate limits of Cueseta and spent something like $25,000. We have in this timber zone—almost in this camp zone—something like 12,000 acres of land. We have the deeds to the timber on this much land, and at this mass meeting which was held at Cueseta, why I was elected secretary and treasurer of that executive com¬ mittee and was sent to Washington. It is the second time I have been here. The first time we came here, we made an appeal to the War Department, and Mr. Wright, our Congressman, helped us, and we went to see Maj. Holden and made an appeal to him to save the county. Mr. Wright agreed with our position. He said he was only endeavoring to get a camp for the people there at Columbus. We had not invited any camp, and it would be all right, with him, to so arrange the lines as to save the county. We went to Maj. Holden and he treated us very nicely, and he called in Mr. Wood and sent him to Columbus, and requested him to go over with Col. Eames, and in a manner to save the county. Col. Eames w T as the man on the ground and was familiar with the geographical conditions. Senator Wadsworth. About what time was this—about what date? Mr. Bergen. I think it was possibly a month ago. Senator McKellar. Was it after the armistice had been declared? Mr. Min ter. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. After November 11? Mr. Min ter. Yes, sir. Senator Wadsworth. Was it after the condemnation proceedings were filed? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I think they were filed on November 2. Senator Wadsworth. Do I gather from that that the boundaries of this area were somewhat indefinite even after the condemnation proceedings were started? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; we had a letter from the War Department. Col. Minter and I read it, dated November 9, stating they wanted to protect the subdivision of the State there, and were already con¬ templating releasing a portion of the territory. That letter came from the War Department. Senator Wadsworth. They intended to amend the bill that was placed on file? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; contemplated releasing these lands. That letter was dated September T or 9—I think it was the 9th. Senator Wadsworth. Whom did you say you took the matter up with before you took it up with Col. Eames? Mr. Bergen. In Maj. Holden’s office. Senator McKellar. Have you got that letter you spoke of ? Mr. Bergen. No, sir; I did not bring it with me. I presented it to Col. Eames. Mr. *Bergen. We carried the letter back* and asked them to call a meeting of the chamber of commerce to get them to go to Col. Eames to save the county. LAND FOB ARTILLEKY TRAINING FIELDS. 129 Senator Thomas. You mean by saving the county, establishing the reservation outside of the county? Mr. Bergen. Not entirely, but we thought since they had built a railroad—of course we realized the War Department, before the war ended, or before the armistice was signed, could do anything it wanted to, but afterwards we felt the emergenc}' was over and it would be up to Congress to decide whether this thing would be es¬ tablished. That is the reason why I have not moved out my mill and am still sawing ahead, although it has inconvenienced me, and caused me a lot of loss. If I could be left alone I would not present any claim for losses. We have dressed 2,000,000 feet of boards and shipped them to the Government, the first two carloads, I think, were shipped to the temporary camp that was built in Columbus— Maj. Jones gave me the order. We have run almost 100 per cent capacity for the various cantonments. We have shipped lumber to the camp at Camp Jackson, and sent them a large order, and then to the DuPont Powder Works, and to other places. The Chairman. Do you know the general sentiment of the people in that territory ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. The Chairman. In that military zone? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I do not know all the people but I am hon¬ est and sincere in saying that I know that the very people, lots of them, that have answered this condemnation proceeding, as I under¬ stand, are men that I associate with. One of them is Col. Weems, who has 8,000 acres, and I bought a lot of my timber from him. He would rather be left alone, while I am in the camp zone with a lot of my timber there. Still there is a lot of people anxious to sell the land and to dump it on the Government. Senator McKellar. Do you agree with Col. Minter in his state¬ ment that 98 per cent of the resident landowners would prefer the camp not to be built there, and that they should be left alone? What is your judgment? Mr. Bergen. I do not kno.w about that. I could not say. He may be exactly correct in his statements. Senator McKellar. What is your judgment about the sentiment of the landowners who reside on the land, who live on the land? What is their sentiment ? Mr. Bergen. I believe they would rather be left alone. There are only two parties that I know of that are in favor of this. Senator McKellar. Who are they ? Mr. Bergen. One is a man named Huer, and John Sammons. Senator McKellar. They are in favor of selling to the Govern¬ ment? Have they agreed with the Government on the price of the land? Mr. Bergen. Not to my knowledge. I have heard that one has, but I do not know\ This movement, down there, of course, has been largely, as I see it, of Columbus friends up there. They are all good folks, but they are after the camp, and we had no objection to that in our resolution. While I do not oppose the Government or Columbus in having a camp while it was necessary, still, after the emergency had passed, to make 99137—19-9 130 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. this enormous expenditure and uproot these people, we felt was un¬ necessary. The Chairman. Did you ever hear that the Committee on Military Affairs refused to indorse the proposition of the War Department to buy a part of the land on the eastern shore of Maryland and turn about 3,000 people off of their land? Senator McKellar. At Camp Allen. This committee refused to let them be dispossessed. Mr. Bergen. The people at Columbus have been so active in this matter we have had no way of bringing it to the attention of any¬ body. It is simply a matter of justice and fairness. We have no ob¬ jection to Columbus having a camp for the War Department, but we do not want to make all the sacrifice. Senator New. You do not want Columbus to camp on you? Mr. Bergen. That is it. This is the second time I have been here. When we went to Col. Eames, that much of it was hearsay, but when we came back from Washington, we had first-hand information. The chamber of commerce rather endorsed our position and agreed to send a committee to try to save the county. Senator McKellar. You mean to convince the Government to leave you enough land to be still a county ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; exactly. We would have to build roads, and the county is a poor county anyway. Chattahoochee is purely an agricultural county anyway, and, as was stated a while ago, they come within five-eighths of a mile of the county seat. It looked like they tried to leave that to us. From our standpoint it would have been better to have taken it all. The Chairman. I do not believe you finished your statement that you started a while ago. Mr. Bergen. We went out to Col. Eames, and he explained his position. I never met a nicer gentleman in my life. He went over it and said, u If I were like you people, I would take the same posi¬ tion you do.” He went over and explained it to us, and he said “ You can not understand my position like I can yours.” We said we did not know about the shooting and the rifle ranges, etc., but he said “ If you will give me 48 hours to look over some other territory, I will see if I can not make you a proposition.” When the 48 hours were up he phoned and wrote a letter and said he could not make any changes. We went back to see him and he said he would take the same position we did if he lived there; and we asked him the question, that if he lived there, and was taking the position we were, and was going before an officer on the ground, and the officer could not make any concession, what would he do? That question, he never answered. So, we came to Washington. Senator McKellar. Were you employed by anyone to come here, or are you here at your own behest ? Mr. Bergen. I was appointed by this committee along with these other gentlemen. Senator McKellar. The committee is bearing your expense? Mr. Bergen. I have contributed very largely. Senator Smith. He is the expense bearer. Mr. Bergen. I have contributed $100; W. A. Weems contributed $100 and Mr. Beese $50, and so on down—some of them a dollar. LAND FOE AETILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 131 Senator McKellar. In other words, it is a country county, the people are not wealthy, but they all want to stay there; they have their churches and homes and graveyards there and schoolhouses there, and they want to stay there—is that the idea? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. If I were taking the attitude of some of them and wanted to unload on the Government a lot of stuff on the Government* and the Government should pay the prices timber is bringing, I could realize a considerable sum. Senator McKellar. You could sell out to the Government as well . as anybody else ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; because I think the records of the Gov¬ ernment will show the deeds I have to this stuff and my holdings would bring me half a million dollars. Senator McKellar. The Government would pay more than a private individual ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. And if this thing went through your hold¬ ing would bring half a million dollars? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I have 50,000,000 feet of standing timber, and the price for roofers 1 by 4 by 12 has been fixed by the Gov¬ ernment at $24 a thousand, and I have shipped over 2,0(30,000 feet, mostly to the Government, since September 1. All they would have to do is to count it up. The timber is there. Senator Thomas. In other words, if the reservation is taken over, it would be a source of profit instead of loss to you ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. Senator Sutherland. You would have a claim for prospective profits ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. We have been bothered a great deal by the disorganization of labor. The newspapers have been telling the people they would have to get out. So, as a loyal citizen, hav¬ ing my family there and living there and owning property outside of the reservation land and town property, and having gotten this plant there, I have had this trust conferred on me by the citizens at a mass meeting and I have tried to do what I could. Senator Smith. You speak of a mass meeting. How many peo¬ ple were at the meeting? Mr. Bergen. In Cusseta in Chattahoochee County? Senator Smith. Yes. Mr. Bergen. There were quite a number at the school house; the seats were pretty well filled; it is a small school house in a small town. Senator Smith. You can not. be mere definite—were there 50 people there? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I would say two or three hundred. The Chairman. Were they people of the town or resident land- owners ? Mr. Bergen. Why, there were some people of the town who were affected, because this site is just five-eights of a mile from the line of the town. Senator Sutherland. It affects the taxing power? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; the whole town is affected. The county commissioners themselves, or the chairman, appointed this com¬ mittee. 132 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Smith. You spoke of having a conversation with Con¬ gressman Wright and he said to you that if the land was adjusted in a satisfactory location and exempted some of these bottom lands, he would be glad to see it done ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. But Col. Eames studied the land there and studied the plat and he said he would be glad to do it if he could, but that the interests of the Government required the land he had mapped out. Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; and if I have misquoted any gentleman here- Senator Smith. That is what I understood you to say. He put it upon the ground that he could not modify these lines to any extent without yielding some of the desirability of the land for the governmental purposes intended ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; he said the Government had sent him there for that purpose, and while he was conscientious about it, lie believed our position was right from our standpoint, but there 1 would not- Senator Smith. From the Government’s standpoint and the needs of the Army, it required the territory he had mapped out? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. You own the timber rights on a considerable part of this land, or your company does? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. What per cent of the people who live out on that land have you talked to? Mr. Bergen. Well, now, that is pretty hard for me to answer. Senator Smith. Don’t you know that a great many of them have moved off or have made arrangements to move? Mr. Bergen. I know that a great many of the tenants—I go out through that territory and I think I know it—it is principally ten¬ ants, as far as my knowledge goes. Senator Smith. Have not a good deal more than half the people who lived there moved out? Mr. Bergen. I do not think so. Senator Smith. When were you there last? Have you been all over it ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, in both Chattahoochee and Muscogee Counties. Senator Smith. I am talking about Chattahoochee County. Mr. Bergen. Well, I pass through in the car on the roads, and, of course, these people come in and confer with us and I see them often. They have to advise with us about coming to Washington and things like that. Senator Smith. Quite a few have’moved off, have they not? Mr. Bergen. Not the landowners, to my knowledge. Senator Smith. Well, the people who live out there? Mr. Bergen. Negroes and tenants only. Senator Smith. A large part of them have all left, anyhow. Mr. Bergen. I do not know what proportion, from my own knowl- elsre. I know of 8,000 acres owned by W. A. Weems, that I talked with him recently about, and he said lie still has his land. Mr. Van Horn is another large landowner, and I understand from him, in talking with him, that he is holding his labor and does not want to sell, if the Government will let them alone. LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 133 Senator Sutherland. You own timber on a great many acres of this tract ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. Senator New. You have contracts with the owners themselves? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; I have my mills out in that town. Senator Sutherland. In this territory? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; my mill superintendent is among them going and coming, and we have discussed this situation because we get a great deal of the labor from there—common labor. Most of our help comes from North Carolina—the experienced labor. Senator Smith. What number of the men you have seen, who lived there within the last 10 days, who did not claim that the effect of the Government’s action is to take their land from them and have arranged to move ? Mr. Bergen. Will you please ask that question once more? Senator Smith. What men have you seen within the last 15 days, since the 15th of December, who did not claim that the action of the Government has taken their lands and who are not preparing to move out or have not moVed out? Mr. Bergen. Well, the people simply have never been—they do not know what to do. They are just like myself. I do not know what to do. I can tell you what I think about it. Senator Smith. I did not ask you what you thought. I asked whom you had seen since the 15th of December living in that town who had not either arranged to move or who were not preparing to move and who did not claim the action of the Government changed the title to the land, and who did not expect the Government to pay? Mr. Bergen. I have not talked to anybody that really knew any¬ thing about it, when it came to the farmers. They did not know what they would do. Senator McKellar. They are all up in the air and hope that they will remain there ? Mr. Bergen. Of course, I do not know. I do not know what the Government will do. I am a law abiding citizen and have been as patriotic as anybody. I know that I have the deeds to the timber paid for and have never been notified by letter to move. Senator Smith. Could not the Government allow you to cut your timber still ? Mr. Bergen. I do not know about that. Senator McKellar. Are you a party to the suit? Mr. Bergen. I do not know. Senator McKellar. And you do not know whether or not you are required to answer—is that it? Is your deed on record? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. You are interested in the real estate as much as anybody else ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir; it is a part of the realty as long as the tim¬ ber stays in the ground. Senator Smith. When did you buy that timber? Mr. Bergen. I went there the 1st day of October—last October a vear ago. Senator Smith. What did you give for your entire stumpage that you bought there? 134 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Mr. Bergen. I could not tell you without looking at my books. 1 have bought a great many tracts. Senator Smith. Substantially what did you give for the entire stumpage you bought ? Senator Thomas. Perhaps that is a business matter that he does not care to disclose. Mr. Bergen. I did not think I was going to be- Senator Smith. I think in connection with the value of his land, and the investigation he would have to undergo on the part of the Government, in arriving at a fair value for his land, that he would have to give that information. Senator McKellar. Not unless the Government takes it and unless he is made a party. He has not been made a party yet, and until he is made a party, any statement he made off hand might be against his interest. He is not claimihg any damages. Mr. Bergen. It is all on the record. Senator Sutherland. There is a consideration named in your deeds ? Mr. Bergen. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. Tell us what you paid. Mr. Bergen. I could not tell that. Senator Smith. Tell us within a few thousand dollars. Senator Sutherland. About what did you base your stumpage on—per thousand feet? Mr. Bergen. It is just like the price of cotton. Of course, it may be worth more now. Senator Smith. Do you claim $50,000 for your stumpage there? Mr. Bergen. Why, more than that. Senator Smith. Seventy-five thousand ? Mr. Bergen. That and other investments; yes, sir. Senator Smith. I mean for the timber. Mr. Bergen. Something like fifty or sixty thousand dollars. Senator McKellar. How long ago ? Mr. Bergen. Last year. Senator Smith. If it would suit the committee just as well to hear these other witnesses I am going to make a suggestion to the com¬ mittee about procuring certain accurate information that I think the committee ought to have about the real number of people who have moved off, where the Government is liable for the land. I think that is a very important factor in this matter, as to whom the Government would have to pay for the land, and if this hearing could be ad¬ journed to some time in the near future more accurate information could be had upon which this committee could act. Senator McKellar. I do not think there is any question in the world about the obligation on the part of the Government to pay every man what he has been damaged. Senator Smith. I do not think that is questioned at all. I think the title was passed to the Government, and the Government should take the land. We say that nine-tenths of them will ask for their money. We say that the Government has taken the entire tract of land, and Mr. Minter is about as accurate as to who is going to claim damages as he is about the cotton raised on the land. LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 135 STATEMENT OF ME. W. 0. BERRY. The Chairman. Mr. Berry, please give your full name, residence, and occupation to the stenographer. Mr. Berry. W. O. Berry, Columbus, Ga. The Chairman. You live at Columbus? Mr. Berry. Four miles from Columbus. The Chairman. Do you live in this military zone? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You own land in that territory? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Are you acquainted with the people generally in Muskogee County? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Within this zone? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. The Chairman. You may speak to the committee as to what you know about the feeling of those men within the military zone, as to the landowners, as to the propriety of the Government going ahead with the releasing of the land or retaining it. Mr. Berry. I have heard practically all of them express their opin¬ ion, and nearly all of them do not want to give up their homes. On the road I live on, we have got, from the fourth to the ninth mile¬ post, something like 1,600 families who live directly on the road. We have got at least that many who use the road who live back off a piece. There is not one of those people in there that I know of who has made any arrangements to move. Senator McKellar. This is in Muscogee County? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; I have made no arrangements. I have taken into consideration the fact that we have a fair and just Government, and that so long as the Government did not take it and until the Government did take it, I had time to hunt another home, and when I was dispossessed, and could not use my home, that the Government would pay all I was damaged. The Chairman. You are still living within that zone? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. How many in Muscogee County who live on the land in controversy have moved out ? Mr. Berry. We have only a few farmers there who have moved out. I do not know how many. Senator McKellar. How many would you say ? Mr. Berry. Something like 10 families of landowners. I think more renters than families have left. Practically everybody has lost their hands because they have had no way to hold them. My hand left me. Senator Sutherland. Was that due to the Government’s projected improvement in this zone, or due to other causes? Mr. Berry. I do not know whether mine was due to that or not, exactly. He took a notion to leave and I did not ask him why he left, but many of them were due to that, because the landowners could not tell them exactly what to expect. Senator McKellar. From your knowledge of the labor tenants and tenant conditions there, if it should be decided that the Govern- 136 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. ment was not going to build a camp there and not take your land, would you be able to get your labor in another year ? Mr. Berry. My viewpoint is—and I think the majority of them are looking at it in the same way—that a man is better off with his home and no hands than to have no home and no hands either. If I have a home I can get the hands. Another thing, that makes it hard on us, is that nearly all our lands in the Muscogee Valley have in¬ creased in value since this matter started. In other words, we would be obliged to make it higher on the Government now than some time ago. Senator Thomas. Why? Mr. Berry. Because the price of land has gone up in value. Senator Thomas. Because of the increased demand on the part of the dispossessed people ? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; and I have taken this view, that the Govern¬ ment would give me a square deal when the Government dispossessed me and the value of my land ought to be—for it is about the same class as the others—something like what I would have to pay to get a new home. Senator McKellar. Do you represent anybodj^ who sent you as a representative ? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; I was selected at a meeting. Senator McKellar. What sort of a meeting was it? Mr. Berry. We had a mass meeting. Senator McKellar. That is not the same meeting these other gen¬ tlemen were talking about ? Mr. Berry. No, sir; we had two or three meetings at Chattahoo¬ chee, and they appointed me on this committee. Senator McKellar. Was there much dissent in view or did all want to retain their homes? Mr. Berry. There was one man who wanted to give up his home, and that was Mr. Thomas. He lives on his home and has a nice home, as good as anybody in the county, but unfortunately he is not any farmer and would rather have the money. Senator Thomas. What did you say his name was? Mr. Berry. Thomas. Senator Thomas. Then he is no farmer. Mr. Berry. This man Thomas priced me his land. I tried to buy it from him and he priced the land about a year ago. I think it was, as near as I can recollect, $20 an acre. Senator Thomas. What is he charging the Government? Mr. Berry. I think I heard him say that he put it in at $30 an acre. Senator Thomas. And his name is Thomas? The Chairman. Those families that went out—moved away— that you spoke of, is it not true that they went out because they came within the rifle range ? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. The Chairman. They had to get out? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; I heard two of these men talking and they said they heard a little something that made them believe the camp would not come, and they said they would be glad to get their homes back. So far as damages or anything of that kind was con¬ cerned, I did not hear of that. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 137 Senator McKellar. Do you think they were damaged? Mr. Berry. No, sir; not damaged a bit. I he Chairman. The loss of your hand does not bother you? Mr. Berry. No, sir. Senator McKellar. Are you a party to this suit? Mr. Berry. No, sir; I have never been notified. Ihe Chairman. A long paper like that [indicating bill filed by the United States district attorney] would scare the ordinary man to death. Senator McKellar. They would give them the land. Senator Smith. I)o you know Mr. Wheat, of Columbus? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. A druggist ? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. Didn’t you tell him your main object in this matter was to increase the price of your land? Mr. Berry. No, sir. Senator Smith. That is not vour object—vou really want to stay on the land ? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. You spoke of a mass meeting. Where was that? Mr. Berry. At Midway. Senator Smith. How many people did you have there? Mr. Berry. Between 40 and 50, or 60. I do not know exactly how many were there. Senator McKellar. They were all land owners? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Resident land owners? Mr. Berry. Practically every one of them. The Chairman. Were you at the meeting at Columbus? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. The Chairman. How many resident landowners took part in that meeting ? Mr. Berry. Somewhere between 40 and 100. Senator Thomas. Was it raining on that occasion? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; a pretty bad day and night. The Chairman. Did the resident land owners have anything to say on that occasion ? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; two or three talked. The Chairman. Were they favoring it? Mr. Berry. No, sir; they were opposed to it. The Chairman. How many were there in all? Mr. Berry. Two or three hundred. Senator McKellar. Was it a packed meeting? Mr. Berry. I do not know about that. There were a great deal more town people than ours. What their intention was I do not know. Senator McKellar. They carried the meeting? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir. Another thing I would like to say is I use the school on the Buena Vista Road. We have a graded school there, and I think it would be hard—I have got no comeback on the Gov¬ ernment as to the camps they have and where they have them, or anything like that—but I take it for granted that when peace is 138 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. signed the first patriotic duty I owed was to do all T could for my family. That is the reason I tried to save my home. I figure the school is worth $1,000 each to my children. Senator Thomas. How far are you from the school ? Mr. Berry. Eight miles. Senator Thomas. You send your children 8 miles to school?. Mr. Berry. No, sir; it is 8 miles from town. Senator McKellar. How far is your place, that you bought, from the schoolhouse? Mr. Berry. Close to the schoolhouse. Senator McKellar. Since the war is over, you think it is your patriotic duty to get back to work and do as much work as you can? Mr. Berry. Yes, sir; we did not have any objection to the camp when the war was on, but since the war has ended everybody wants to retain his home. Senator Smith. I should like to call Mr. Miller. STATEMENT OF MR. B. S. MILLER. The Chairman. Please give your name, residence, and business, Mr. Miller, to the stenographer. Mr. Miller. B. S. Miller, Columbus, Ga., attorney at law. Gen¬ tlemen, I represent, in Chattahoochee County, 6,638J acres in the camp zone. The names of the owners of that land I have before me, which represents about 12 per cent of the land in Chattahoochee County, instead of 2 per cent. Senator McKellar. Will you call them out? Mr. Miller. J. S. Psalnumds, 1,620 acres. Senator McKellar. Bead them slowly so I can check them off. The Chairman. That will take some time. Mr. Miller. I can read them to the stenographer. W. A. Sapp, 308f acres; W. C. Sapp, 281J acres; Mrs. C. A. Wright, 52 acres; F. E. Farr, 283^ acres; Dr. W. C. Hewell, 9 acres; Alice j. Johnson, 202J acres; Gus Gaines, 202J acres; J. H. James et al.—the et al. are his mother and aunt—196J acres; B. M. Pierce, 485 acres; David Gardner, 160 acres; Eugene L. McBride, 1,505 acres: D. F. and R. I. Lizemore, 462 acres; and Arthur Bussey, 1,868 acres, all with but one exception resident owners on the land. Senator McKellar. All but a part of them parties to the bill ? Senator Smith. They have made two amendments to the bill and have added other parties. They name those they knew at first—the district attorney did. Mr. Miller. With the exception of one man, answers have been filed by all these landow T ners in the United States court by name. With one single exception, every one of them desires for the Govern¬ ment to take over their lands, and that one exception desires for the Government to take over his land at a certain price. Senator McKellar. How many of them are resident landowners? Mr. Miller. All except one. Senator McKellar. How many all together? Mr. Miller. I have not counted the number. The acreage is 6,638£ acres. Senator McKellar. About 10 or 12 landowners ? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 139 Mr. Miller. About 15. Now, the total acreage in this camp in Chattahoochee County, if I have not been misinformed, is about 60,000 acres, so that the acreage in Chattahoochee that I represent is a litle more than 10 per cent, which is 8 per cent more than two. J. S: Psalmonds, whose name has been referred to, owns 1,620 acres. He has already agreed with the Government on a price of $36,000 for his land. Senator McIvellar. How many acres? Mr. Miller. 1,620. There is a mortgage on Mr. Psalmond’s land of $9,800. Mr. Psalmonds has already bought a place elsewhere and has mortgaged these 1,620 acres to pay for it, and Mr. Psalmonds has moved or is moving at the present time, so that if the Government should fail to take his 1,620 acres it would mean absolute and irre¬ trievable bankruptcy for Mr. Psalmonds. Senator Thomas. Unless the Government compensated him. Mr. Miller. The Government could pay for his land; in that event Mr. Psalmonds would not have been damaged. The Chairman. Where did he buy and from whom? Mr. Miller. I happen to have personal knowledge of that, because he bought from your humble servant. The Chairman. He bought 1,620 acres from you? Mr. Miller. The 1,620 acres is in the camp zone. He owes a mortgage on that of $9,800. The Chairman. On that? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And he is to get $36,000 for it? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. He bought a place from you for how much? Mr. Miller. $26,100. I have the mortgage deed, sir, in my pocket, if you want to see it. The Chairman. If the Government bought the land for $36,000, it would just about give him a place without a mortgage on it near by? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And pay up your mortgage? Mr. Miller. I have no mortgage. The Chairman. I mean the mortgage you hold of his. Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; $9,800. The Chairman. Did you sell it to him on the theory that he would get this land of his taken over by the Government ? Mr. Miller. Well, I certainly expected he would sell. The Chairman. When is the indebtedness due? Mr. Miller. Payable on demand. The Chairman. He paid no cash on it at all? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. These men whose names you have read— do you represent them in the litigation? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Did you know that some of them, or do you know that some of them put'up money to send delegates here to oppose this thing? . _ _ ^ . Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; I will give the names and the amounts they contributed. The Chairman. I would like to have the names ol those who con¬ tributed. 140 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Mr. Miller. Mr. Pierce, whose name my friend Minter called, was present at the mass meeting referred to by him at the Harmony schoolhouse. The meeting’ was held there on Monday afternoon, at 2 o’clock, December 30, 1918. Mr. Pierce is my client. Mr. Pierce contributed $10. Mr. Pierce has authorized me to say that if the Government will pay $30 an acre lie will move. Senator Sutherland. What is the land worth? Mr. Miller. I think it is worth that. Mr. Christian was referred to also by Mr. Minter. They paid Mr. Christian $20.40 an acre. He has bought land elsewhere and moved elsewhere, and it would bankrupt him if he did not get his money from the Government. Senator Thomas. That is, at first he stated he would take $30 an acre, after he had contributed to the expenses of the other men who came on here? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. Senator Thomas. He changed his mind afterwards? Mr. Miller. No, sir; he wanted more than that before. The Gov¬ ernment agents had an arrangement to come there a few days before we came here. Senator McIvellar. How many of your clients have agreed on prices for their land? Mr. Miller. J. Robert Duncan has agreed on a price with the Government for his land of $9,500. Senator McKellar. How much is that an acre? Mr. Miller. He has 130 acres. It is right near the city. Dr. W. C. Hewell, who lived in the camp zone, has moved and has agreed with the Government as to the price to be paid him, and he is expect¬ ing to get the money from the Government. These purchases are not contingent purchases. Senator McKellar. We are not arguing about the question of contract, but here is what is striking me with a great deal of force: If no camp is established, would you not prefer that these gentlemen retain their lands and let the Government pay what damages have been sustained—whatever they may be, and the}^ ought to be ample and complete damages—and would it not be better for your county to retain those gentlemen there if we do not have the camp ? Mr. Miller. My personal view is not. Senator McKellar. You think the Government should own the land and let it go to waste? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; and I will give you my reasons. Senator McKellar. I should be glad to have them. Mr. Miller. In the first place, I am thoroughly familiar with the conditions there—as much so as my friend, Minter. I suspect I know every man and woman in this camp ground. It has been conservatively calculated by opponents of this camp and myself that there are about a thousand plows in the camp zone—that is, both Muscogee and Chattahoochee Counties. Now, we cultivate in that county, it will be a liberal estimate to say, about 35 acres to the plow. Some say 30 and some say 40—35 is the average. That means there are about 35,000 acres. It means that there is not in excess of 35,000 acres of land under cultivation .out of the 115,000. That is the maximum; that is a liberal estimate. I do not believe, sir, that if you destroy the crops growing upon those 35,000 acres that it means LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 141 you will lose that many bales of cotton or that many bushels of corn or grain or anything else. That is so from the fact that these farmers would seek other idle lands adjoining the camp reservation and produce the same crops under intensive agriculture, and they too would receive a benefit from this camp that they do not get now. The Chairman. Would they not be obliged to pay a higher price for the land, because of increased prices? Mr. Miller. In some instances that is true. Senator McKellar. I am not asking about comparing it with the camp there, and the Government owning the land and keeping the camp, but I am asking you to assume that the Government is not going to put a camp there but that the project is going to be aban¬ doned. Assume that. Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Would you rather not have all these people paid their full damages and remain in your county and on the land rather than have the Government own these various tracts of land here and there, where they would be compelled to take them under this contract ? Mr. Miller. Of course, if the Government is going to abandon the land absolutely and not use it for camp purposes- Senator McKellar. I think you can assume that safely in your / argument before the committee. Mr. Miller. I have not finished my reply. I believe a camp at that place would inure to the benefit of every farmer that would have to leave the camp ground; that there would be at least 90 per cent of the farmers living in the camp zone who would buy adjoin¬ ing lands. That is a very sparsely settled country outside of the camp zone and in the camp zone. You have already heard the state¬ ments made here about the number of people living on these 115,000 acres, which shows how sparsely settled it is. Now, much has been said about the river land. You can count the river plantations on the Chattahoochee River on one hand—on one hand and not oyer two fingers on the other hand. The first plan¬ tation is the plantation of Mr. Bussey containing 1,860 acres. Mr. Bussey is in favor of this camp. There might have been a time when Mr. Bussey would not have preferred to have the camp, but that time has passed and he now states he wr.nts this camp to be realized. The next plantation belongs to W. C. Bradley, a river plantation. I do not know how Mr. Bradley feels. I know that Mr. Bussey, who owns the most valuable part of the land, ffe in favor of the camp. He was not in favor of it as an original proposition, but is now. Why ? 206 tenants and croppers, white and black, have left his place and he has bought a place elsewhere and paid $85,000 for it. Now, gentle¬ men, the main value, the main asset, of a plantation in that com¬ munity or that section of Georgia, consists in labor. With the labor gone—206 people from one plantation it is absolutely ine- trievable. I do not know how the Government could reach a fair and just and equitable compensation for these damages. The Chairman. There are a lot of plantations in the South With¬ out labor. They have had that trouble every year. In the delta region of the Mississippi whole plantations are denuded of their negroes. They have had to go get them. 142 LAND FOE AETILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Mr. Miller. Where this land is already vacant, that does not apply, but here is a man in this plight —206 people have moved from his plantation alone. Senator Thomas. I understood the statement to be that the owners have not left, but that the laborers have. Mr. Miller. Out of the owners that I represent, Mr. Psalmonds has moved and Dr. Hewell. Mr. Minter. He had not left when I was there. Mr. Miller. He started to move sometime ago. Mr. Duncan has moved and has been off his place for some time. I have mentioned Mr. Psalmonds. Mr. W. A. Sapp, my friend Minter said, was against the camp. I saw him a few hours before I caught the train to come to Atlanta and he told me to say, if I had an opportunity to say it to the committee, that he was absolutely in favor of this camp and wanted it to come. Senator McKellar. What is his age? Mr. Miller. I suppose about 50. Senator McKellar. How old? Mr. Miller. I could not say. I suppose about 50. T am guessing. Now, his father, Dr. W. E. Sapp, one of the old landmarks, one of the old pioneers, and really one of the great men of the county, has authorized me to say that, as an original proposition, he was not in favor of the camp, that he did not care to give up his home with the associations that he had, but- Senator McKellar. Do you think that this committee or that Con¬ gress, of which this committee is a part, should establish or not estab¬ lish a camp down there simply because some gentlemen want it or do not want it? Do you think we ought to be influenced in the slightest by that? We are here as the paid representatives of the United States Government. What difference does it make whether Mr. Sapp, or Mr. Smith, or Mr. Jones, or Robinson, or their cousins or their sisters, are in favor of or against this proposition, provided the Government treats them fairly and justly and honestly—and that is what the Government proposes to do? The question about whether we have this camp here is a national question that has no more to do with that local situation than the man in the moon. Senator Thomas. Still, T think his statement is pertinent, in view of what has been said by other witnesses. Mr. Miller. I think you are absolutely right about it, but the com¬ mittee, in its kindness, has indulged witnesses who have gone into these details. I think you should have all the light you can get on this matter. I think it is a national question myself. Regardless of what the policy of this Government might be with reference to the standing Army, I think every member of this committee will agree that the soldiers of the standing Army should be trained men. Now, then, if that be true, if you are to have a post-graduate course after these officers leave West Point, the question arises where it should be. That is a national question, and you will seek out a country or section of this country that is the best place, regardless of where that place is. If you have had heretofore—I do not know it myself; I am not familiar with these things at all—but if you had an infantry school of arms and other kinds of schools that are proposed to be contem¬ plated at this point, and which were proposed even before this war. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 143 it is a question for you to determine whether those schools should be continued. There can not be any question with this committee or with this Congress that this Government should have a standing Army. There never was a question raised as to the wisdom of Washington when he recommended West Point, and he recommended it in time of peace. It is a significant fact that it was recommended immediately following the Revolutionary War. Now, this great country has grown, and it has grown to the point where we require soldiers that have graduated from West Point, and as to whether or not we should have some school where these men can engage in warfare and learn how to actually handle a gun and go into the rifle ranges, etc., and can be made real soldiers, I think that is something Congress will wisely determine. It is a matter of detail. It is a matter for the investigation of skilled authorities—- perhaps the military authorities of the Government—to find the proper place for this camp, and then to recommend it to your body, and then your body will approve or disapprove as it sees fit. All these incidental questions about Mr. Jones or Mr. Smith are abso¬ lutely immaterial. You could not find any tract of 115,000 acres in any spot in this Union where you will not find objections coming from some source or another. Senator Thomas. Except on the public domain. Mr. Miller. You have no public domain in this Union where the climatic conditions would apply so as to enable -the men to get train¬ ing all the year around. I believe the w T isdom of this committee would suggest that you seek a southern section where the Govern¬ ment can have the use of the field all the year around, or can have this practice or this experience there during the entire year. Of course I do not know whether this is true or not, but it has been my impression that Fort Sill was abandoned for that reason. It may have been that they did not have land enough and perhaps Fort Curry was abandoned for the same reason. My information is from experts—I do not know whether it be true or not—that this is the most ideal section for a school of this kind that exists in the country. The Chairman. I do not think there is any question about that among the military men. Senator Smith. The one thing I had in view in calling. Mr. Miller was to show first that Mr. Minter was mistaken when he said that there were no property holders who had moved off the property. I want to show that for two reasons: First, to meet what I agree with Mr. Miller is immaterial, because if the Government wants the prop¬ erty then the Government should have it- Senator Thomas. I think that testimony is relevant. Senator Smith. It tends to remove the impression that I thought might otherwise have been incorrectly made, that these property holders, in this proceedure for condemnation by the Government, having been one that divested title, leaving to them simply the right to determine the value of the property Senator McKellar. I think there is no question but that the Gov¬ ernment will be obliged to be bound by that; in other words, if the holding of your courts is that this divests title and invests it in the Government, that settles it. 144 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Smith. But what I wanted to show is that that indefinite statement about a great many disagreeing to this project is inaccurate and not entirely responsible. Mr. Miller. Gentlemen, if the views of the distinguished Senator from Tennessee and of the senior Senator from Georgia are correct, that the Government has got to take over this land or that the Gov¬ ernment did take over this land, you have got to pay for them any¬ way, and is it not a very serious question as to what you should decide to do in this matter? Senator McKellar. But the paying of these damages amounts to only about one-tenth of the cost of this camp. However, I do not want to be misunderstood. I am assuming from the testimony con¬ cerning the Georgia laws, that that was the case. In Tennessee we have a different rule. There must be the action of the court before title is actually vested in the condemnor. Senator New. I submit that we are getting away from the question at issue. Senator Smith. I think Mr. Miller has given you really the facts we wanted you to have. Mr. Miller. It comes back at last to this small question that I do not care to thrash out only for one reason, and that is in reply to these other gentlemen. My friend spoke of a mass meeting at Chatta¬ hoochee. I mention this merely to throw light on the subject, and the sentiment of the people who reside in the hotbed of this so-called opposition in Chattahoochee County. This Harmony School is prac¬ tically in the center of it. On this occasion that my friend has re¬ ferred to—and the only mass meeting of which I have any knowledge that has been held in Chattahoochee County, with one exception on this subject—there were 19 men present, and I can give the names of all of them. I have the names of all of them here. There were 19 there, several of whom did not own land. This came to me from Mr. Pierce, who was present. I do not know whether he told me the truth or not, but he is an honorable man. He said there were just 19 men there, and the only other mass meeting that was held was in the courthouse at Cueseta. Now, how was it held ? The Government had sent out orders through the military department, to have the soldiers appear there; the local board had issued orders for the soldiers to appear at a certain time to hear lectures on venereal diseases. The courthouse was packed. At that meeting my friend over here on my left (Mr. Minter) got up and announced that on the following Friday there was to be a meeting to be held in that courthouse of those who opposed the camp, and on that following Friday there was a handful of people there, and the dynamic force behind that meeting was my friend with his princely estate of 8,000 acres. He contributed, I understand, $100, and my friend Bergen, who is not really a citizen of Chatta¬ hoochee County—an itinerant resident—who had come there to cut timber and then move away down further when he had exhausted the timber—now, he made a contribution, and by friend Mr. Hewell, who occupies the same attitude, and Mr. Weems contributed, and that is how the money was raised, with the exception of the Harmony schoolhouse meeting, which was held a Monday or two ago, when $195 was raised. That is the extent of the opposition. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 145 I give it to you as my honest opinion that the great majority— and it may be strange to you that Mr. Minter could have an opinion so widely divergent from my own—I give it to you as my unqaulified opinion, there are at least 90 per cent of the landowners of Chatta¬ hoochee County who desire to have this camp come, and want it to come. By the Chairman. What is the great interest of the city of Colum¬ bus in this proposition ? They are not property owners ? Mr. Miller. Why, it will turn loose in that community about three- quarters of a million dollars a month. The Chairman. You know that the Government does not neces¬ sarily, by any means, buj^ supplies from the nearest town? Mr. Miller. But the soldiers spend their salaries in the nearest town, and the farmer who lives in this zone would have a greater de¬ mand for everything he raises. He would get his part of that mil¬ lion dollars, or three-quarters of a million, and everybody would be benefited by it. The Chairman. Are the citizens of Columbus figuring at all upon the benefits to be derived by the* Government, or from the stand¬ point you are speaking of? Mr. Miller. I think, very naturally, that the people of Colum¬ bus think that they have a great site and think it would be a great acquisition for the Government to own it, and to have this great Gibraltar to be built on the Chattahoochee, just as we have that great Gilbraltar on the Hudson, and they have spent time and money and labor in a patriotic way to acquire ownership and title to this land. Senator McKellar. Everybody believes in President Wilson, practically, don’t they? Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; practically. Senator McKellar. Suppose he gets the proper treaty of peace over there, which I devoutedly hope he will, that will obviate the necessity of having camps or a great Military Establishment, don’t you think we ought to stand by him? Mr. Miller. If you had a camp like this for the purpose of train¬ ing your soldiers, 1 think it would be to your benefit. Senator Thomas. I understand President Wilson wants the greatest Navy, notwithstanding his league. Senator McKellar. But you can not put it in the Chattahoochee River. Mr. Miller. I was going to refer to the labor conditions. Senator Smith. I do not think that is necessary. The Chairman. Are there any other witnesses? Senator Smith. Not this afternoon. We would like to give you some more information to-morrow—just a few supplementary facts. The Chairman. Very well, then we will take a recess until to¬ morrow morning at 10:30 o’clock. (Whereupon, at 5 o’clock p. m., an adjournment was taken until to-morrow, Saturday, January 11, 1919, at 10.30 o’clock a. m.) 99137—19-10 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. TUESDAY, JANUARY 14, 1919. United States Senate, Committee on Military Affairs, W asking ton, D. C. The committee met at T2 o'clock m. in the committee room, Capitol, Senator George E. Chamberlain presiding. Present: Senators Chamberlain (chairman), Fletcher, Thomas, Beckham, Kirby, McKellar, Weeks, Sutherland, New, and Knox. Senator Fletcher. I lay before the committee certain telegrams to the chairman of the committee protesting against the establish¬ ment of Fort Kenning, at Columbus, Ga., which I shall read. (The telegrams referred to are here printed in full as follows:) Columbus, Ga., January J_l h 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: As home owner enter protest against construction of Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. Jno. B. Davis. Columbus, Ga., January Ilf , 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: Protest against erection Fort Benning, Columbus, Ga. J. A. Gains. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: Enter protest against establishment Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. Daniel R. Huff. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, 1). C.: I enter protest establishment Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. Robt. H. Taft. Cusseta, Ga., January 13, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Military Affairs Committee, Washington, D. C.: The women of Chattahoochee County are opposed to Fort Benning. The loss of our homes will bring much suffering to us and our children. We appeal to your committee for protection. Mrs. C. N. Howard, Jr., President Cusseta Women's Club. Mrs. W. I. Vanhorne, President Harmony Women's Club. 147 148 LAND FOE ARTTLLEEY TRAINING FIELDS. Columbus, Ga., January 14 , 1919. Senator Chambeklain, Washington, D. C.: I protest against establishing Fort Benning, at Columbus, Ga. Home owner in reservation. George A. Ford. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: Enter protest against Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga., Columbus, Ga. January 13, 1919. B. F. Cleveland. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, , Washington, D. C.: I wish to protest against the establishment of Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. H. E. Millen. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: Am opposed to camp here. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. S. H. Odom. Columbus, Ga., January 11. 1919. Chairman Military Affairs Committee, Senate, Washington, D. C.: C. C. Minter and J. S. Burgin are the accredited representatives of Chatta¬ hoochee County. Any claims to the contrary are untrue. Chattahoochee County is opposed to the establishment of Fort Benning. Besides valuable agri¬ cultural lands and the camp, it means the abolishment of the county as a sub¬ division of the State. We appeal to you to protect us. Please read this to committee. C. B. Howard, Jr.. Chairman Executive Committee. W. B. Osteen, Clerk of Court. It. I. Barbaree, Sheriff. Columbus, Ga., January 11, 1919. Chairman* Military Affairs Committee, Washington, D. C.: Mass meeting held Midway School House, Muscogee County, tonight. Reso¬ lution adopted expressing unanimous opposition to Fort Benning. It is unneces¬ sary expense and waste of money. Lee Massey, Chairman. Cusseta, Ga., January 11,, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Chairman Military Affairs Committee, Washington, D. C.: Nearly all resident landowners of Chattahoochee County are opposed to Fort Benning. All except a tew are still in possession of their homes. Any infor¬ mation to the contrary is untrue. Columbus newspapers misrepresent the con¬ ditions here. We appeal to the Congress and the Senate for protection of Mrs. L. W. Adams and W. A. Weems. George M. Adams. LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 149 Cusseta, Ga., January 13, 1919. Senator C h a m bek l a i n , Chairman Military Affairs Committee , Washington, /). C.: Chattahoochee County opposed to Fort Benning. A limited number not resi¬ dents of camp area might desire to unload on Government at high prices. We have no chamber of commerce nor any paid lobbyist in Washington. This is already a small county. A loss of half its area means its abolishment. C. N. Howard, .Tr., Cashier Bank of Cusseta. .T. J. Gordy, Clerk County Commissioners. B. B. Miller, Member Committee, Chattahoochee County. W. A. Gaylor. Senator Ciiam berlain, Washington, 1). C.: Columbus, Ga., January Ilf, 1919. As home owner ('liter protest against construction of Fort Benning at Colum¬ bus, Ga. Webster Davis. Columbus, Ga., January 14, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: i As home owner, enter protest against construction of Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. J. L. Berry. Columbus, Ga., January 14, 1919. Senator C it a m ber lain, Washington, D. C.: As a home owner on the reservation, I protest against the establishment of Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. Vesta King. Columbus, Ga., January 14, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: As home owner on reservation, I protest against Fort Benning at Colum- bus, Ga. W. S. Snipes. Columbus, Ga., January Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: Enter protest against Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. E. B. 14 , 1919 . Sturkie. Columbus, Ga., January 14, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: Enter my protest against Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. Mrs. L. W. Sturkie. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. wasrunyion, ju. l . Dear Sir : I am opposed to the erection of the camp, Columbus, Ga. Respectfully, anator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C. 150 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, I). C.: I am opposed to the erection of Fort Benning, Columbus, Ga. J. W. Lavender. Senator Chamberlain, Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Washington, D. C.: I am opposed to the erection of Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. O. E. Sturkie. Cusseta, Ga., January 19, 1919. Sena tor Chamberlain, Washington, 1). C.: Only one landowner in camp area within 7 miles of Cusseta has moved from his home. I am familiar with this part of area. It. L. Harp, Mayor of Cusseta. Senator Cham berlain, Chairman Military Committee, Columbus, Ga., January 19, 1919. Washington, D. C.: We, the committee, after investigating, find that not more than 25 landowners have moved out of this reservation known as Fort Benning. Sworn to this 18th day of January, 1919. R. L. Massey, Chairman. S. D. Snelling, Justice of the Peace, Muscogee County, Ga. Sena tor C h a m berlain , Washington. D. C.: Cusseta, Ga., January 19, 1919. Mr. Garrard represented ns. If camp is established we oppose the camp, and Messrs. Minter & Burgin represented us before your committee. We own a large tract of land in the camp area in Chattahoochee County. W. A. Weems. Mrs. L. W. Adams. Sena tor Chamberlain, Washington, 1). C.: Cusseta, Ga., January 19, 1919. My route as rural mail carrier lies in camp area in Chattahoochee County except 1 mile. Only three resident landowners have moved within my knowl¬ edge; all balance are opposed to camp. M. W. Weems, Rural Carrier. Columbus, Ga., January 20, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Chairman Military Committee, Washington, D. C. We the undersigned ladies protest against Fort Benning, and ask you to save our homes, churches, and schools: Mrs. W. S. Snipes, Mrs. S. E. Miller, Miss Vesta King, Miss Willie L. Snipes, Mrs. .Tno. B. David, Mrs S. D. Snelling, Miss Hassie Haden, Mrs. A. B. Rentz, Mrs. T. J. Harden, Mrs. Jennie King, Mrs. G. A. Dimon, Mrs. W. H. Moore, Mrs. A. M. Munro, Miss Luella Massey, Mrs. T. W. Jones. Mrs. Susie Martin, Miss Lois Jones, Mrs. E. B. Sturkey, Miss Mary E. Sturkey, Mrs. Willie Pollard, Mrs. J. W. Lavender, Mrs. L. M. Lavender, Miss Louise LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 151 Moon, Mrs. G. W. Ford, Miss Annie Massey, Mozelle Severs, Mrs. Jeff Thomason, Mildred Cook, Millie Severs, Miss Elmer Thoma¬ son, Climmie Massey, Jane Standbaco, Fannie Harden, Mrs. Minnie Taft*, Lizzie Brown, Mrs. Mattie Boland, Miss Lilia McGuyst, Mittie Brown, Mrs. A. Pawley, Rosa Briant, Sadie I win, Miss Vine Pawley, Mary Bryant, Adie Davis, Mrs. Henry Oliver, Daisy Bryant, Della Hall, Mrs. Elias King. Sweet Spencer, Mollie Hall, Mrs. Chas. McCord, Adelle Spencer, Mrs. Wm, Taft, Mrs. Oscar McGunty, Mrs. Pearce liioth, Miss Mamie King, Mrs. Jim Houlet, Mrs. Drane Hunter, Miss Mozelle King, Miss Mamie Simons, Magnolia Simons, Mrs. Butler Simons, Miss Anna Hunley, Mrs. Joe Massey, Charlton Johnson, Miss Fannie Massey, Mrs. Lee Massey, Miss Jettie Tomblin, Mrs. Mattie Jones, John McBride, Travis McBride, Boyd Tomblin, Mollie Parker, Lee Castello, Ed. Tomlinson, Walter McBride, Lee McBride, Monrow Grier. W. T. McBride, Geo. Tomlinson, Miss Jessie Tomlinson, Essie Toblin. Senator Chamberlain, Washington, I). C. Cusseta, Ga., January 20, 1919. We own about 16,000 acres in camp area Chattahoochee County. We are opposed to camp. Mr. Gerrard represents us in condemnation proceedings if camp somes to secure good prices, but Messrs. Minter & Bur gin represented us before your committee. Less than a dozen landowners have moved. Balance oppose camp. W. I. Van Horn, Miss Lucy Van Horn, Mrs. Mary Lester, G. W. King. Columbus, Ga., January 20, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Chairman Military Affairs Committee, . Washington, D. C. As home owners in mass meeting assembled and still living within proposed boundaries of Fort Benning, in Muscogee County, we protest against establish¬ ment of Fort Benning at Columbus, Ga. We further release the Government of any obligation to purchase our lands. H. E. Miller, S. D. Snelling, Mrs. R. R. Snellin, A. M. Munro, T. J. Hayden. G. A. Dimon, Frank Jones, E. B. Starkey, J. L. Micord, Mrs. M. E. Nix, J. W. Lavender, L. M. Lavender, R. D. Edwards, W. H. Lloon, G. W. Ford, John Tonblin, Ed. Tomolin, Wiley Jones, John McBride, Dennick Rodgers, William Parker, Lee Castilla, Walter McBryde, Boyd Tomblin, Will McBryde, Mrs. Matilda Speerling, Geo. Tomblin, Joseph Massey, Jeff Thomason, J. L. Berry, Charlie McBryde, Bob Chritian, B. C. Layfield, Charlton Johnson, Charlie Helton. Erquett Massey, Yancy Massey, Travis McBryde, Richard Moye. Tom Newsome, Lee Massey, Annais Edwards, F. Fuller, Geo. Ogletree, Charlie Simons, Marion Patrick, Oscar Patrick, Lee Bullard, Bob Bird, Will Massey, jr.; Charlie Massey, Will Massey, sr.; Flora Felder, Jim Felder, Geo. Bullard, Henry Bassett, Elias King, Robt. Snelling, Will Ped, Gus Duke, Homer Brown, Nathan Davis, Arthur Bedell, Cliff Mahaffey, Shields Simons, Will Taff, Ike Shorter, Webb Davis, Jim Boland, Westley Pauly, Tom Pate, Charlie McCardle, Jim Hunley, Elmer McCardle, Mrs. Arena Taft. Charlie Duke, Mark Anthony, Will McGuirt, Julius Dimon, Mrs. Mary McGuirt, Monroe McGuirt, Wilbur McGuirt, Jesse Bryant, Acie Bryant, Dennis Spencer, Prince Sivers, Mandy Jones, John Ginn. Henry Ginn. Lafayette Ginn, Miss Sarah Taft. Mrs. Nancy Grier, Robt. Taft, Tom Jones, Frank Kilpatrick, Miss Vesta King, W. O. Berry, A. L. Pollard, A. J. King, W. S. Snipes. 152 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Gussetta, Ga., January 21, 191!). Senator Chamberlain, Washington, D. C. We own 1,500 acres in camp area, Chattahoochee County. Garrard was employed to represent us in receiving good prices if we were forced to move. We oppose the camp, and Mr. Minter represented us before your committee. Columbus reports that landowners have moved are hot true. All except four farmers can run their farms. Half million dollars would cover all damages. J. G. Wilson, .T. C. Wilson. C. F. Wilson. W. D. Cooksey. W. T. Cooksey. Senator George Chamberlain. Washington, D. C. Cussetta, Ga., January 21, 1919. We own over 6,000 acres land in camp zone. Don’t want to sell at any price. Mr. Garrard only representing us in condemnation court. Mr. Minter represents us before your committee. Only four landowners have left farms in Chattahoochee County. Any other report is untrue. Mrs. T. M. Adams. W. A. Weems. George Adams. Luther Wilder. Columbus, Ga., January 20, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Chairman Military Affairs Committee, Washington, D. C. Bring before your committee the 14th instant and hearing a telegram read that 90 per cent had vacated. Now on my return home after investigating I find not more than 25 landowners have moved from Fort Benning Reservation. Please advise when I may begin planting grain, as Senator Smith could not. My motto after the war, “ More to eat and less guns. 1 ’ Wm. K. Schley. Senator Fletcher. Judge, will you proceed with your statement? STATEMENT OF MR. J. G. DUNHAM. Mr. Dunham. Mr. Chairman and gentleman of the committee, I do not know much about this matter, and I feel like the committee is entitled to know how much Ido know about it, that it may be able to give such weight to what I may say as it deserves, and no more. I was born and reared and have lived all my life until the last few years in an adjoining county to this proposed camp, in Marion County, and within 6 or 8 miles of the east line of Chattahoochee Count} 7 . I know, and have known, nearly all my life, nearly every human being in Chattahoochee County, and I know that if this camp is maintained, it means there will not be territory enough left within this county to maintain a county organization. It means that county will have to be abolished. Now, I Avish to emphasize that with this statement: As a lawyer, I recall that that county and a few others in Georgia some years ago was small and it became necessary for one man to fill the office of auditor as well as the position of clerk of the court. The matter was called to the attention of the supreme court of our State a few LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 153 years ago, and they held there was no legal authority for one man to hold those two offices, and since that time the clerk of the court and auditor of Chattahoochee County have been different men. I know I am entirely familiar with the location of the county, the fertility of the various sections, and if this camp is maintained, as the lines are now drawn, if the property within the camp zone was returned— and I presume it is—at its fair valuation, it would relieve the county or take from the county fully half of its taxable value. Mr. Miller, who was born and reared in the same community with me—and I wish to say we have always been strong friends and are now—gave some testimony on Friday afternoon before this commit¬ tee that I think is calculated to mislead those who wish to have the exact truth. I do not mean to say he intended to do it; I think he is away above that. But he stated there was a man named Psalmonds, who owned quite a tract of land within the camp zone, and that he had arranged to leave it and had bought a tract of land in the same county, but in a part of the county that was not within the zone of the camp. Senator Sutherland. Bought it from him. Mr. Dunham. Bought it from him. That I happen to know. Now, I feel like the committee ought to know all about that. As a lawyer, I recognize that a jury or an investigating committee like yours have a right to see the witness, inquire of his qualifications, and inquire about his opportunity to know about the things about which he testifies: his interest or want of interest in the matter, that you may give to his testimony such weight as it justly deserves and no moi-p and no’less. Now, I happen to be familiar with the piece of property that Mr. Psalmonds owned within the zone and the piece of property that he now has contracted for and bought from Mr. Miller. I know its location and I know its reasonable valuation. Now, if you gentle¬ men recall, Mr. Miller stated that if this camp were not completed and maintained it meant that Mr. Psalmonds was unquestionably a bankrupt. Now, if that is so, it comes about by the Government buying his previous holdings too cheaply, or it means that he has paid Mr. Miller too much. One or the other of those must be true. Now, I happen to know in a way, and have been advised upon in¬ formation that I think is absolutely reliable, that the piece of prop¬ erty that Mr. Miller says he sold Mr. Psalmonds, that is in the same county but in a portion that is not included within this camp, con¬ sists of two pieces of property that have been owned by other people for a good long time. Within a remarkably few years Mr. Miller, as the representative of the British American Mortgage Co. loaned those two parties some money. The aggregate amount was about $5,000. One tract of land was something like a thousand acres, and the other trai t has 400 acres, and adjoins it. He, as the representa¬ tive of the British American Mortgage Co., took advantage of a phrase in that contract that, without forclosure proceedings, they could advertise and sell that property at public outcry, and he did. Mr. Miller was the purchaser at that sale, of both tracts, and he gave about $3,500 for the tract of land known as Ida Vesper, located on the Central of Georgia Railroad line; at a public sale he bought that 1,000 acres of land for $3,500. The 400-acre tract, right north of it, 154 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. and adjoining it—it consists of two lots—he bought for $1,500, or within a few dollars of that, making about $5,000. Now, he testified last Friday afternoon that he had sold, and held a demand note on Psalmonds, for $26,000 for that property. Senator Fletcher. Both pieces. Mr. Dunham. Both pieces. The two combined cost him $5,000, and according to his proof, which I did not know- Senator Weeks. How long ago did this purchase take place? Mr. Dunham. He being the purchaser? Senator Weeks. Yes. Mr. Dunham. Within five or six years. Senator Weeks. What has happened in that neighborhood to increase the value of property there—anything? Mr. Dunham. I should say, sir, that the establishment of this camp had a material influence upon the values, particularly on the property right near it, but on the outside. Senator Sutherland. By creating a demand for land in the neigh¬ borhood ? Mr. Dunham. Yes; you see, those people within the zone had to get out. They were farmers—that is purely an agricultural coun¬ try—and they had to have some more land to farm on, and so he bought this piece of land- Senator Fletcher. You mean he bought those two pieces now out¬ side of the zone? Mr. Dunham. Yes, sir; but only a little way out. I take it that that property is within 5 miles of the east line of the camp zone in the same county—Chattahoochee County. Of course, I do not want to make any statement I do not know, and the other gentlemen from Columbus, including Mr. Miller, were entirely reputable- Senator Smith. Before you pass from this tract of Mr. Miller’s, do you know how much Mr. Miller had done for that property; do y ou know that he put a gin on it within the last six month ? Mr. Dunham. Did you intend to ask me that question? Senator Smith. Yes. Mr. Dunham. I have it from Mr. Miller that he put a gin on it and made other improvements. Senator Smith. Do you know he spent $5,000 in the past six months for a gin and over $5,000 for other improvements, and that this sale covered personal property also of a very large amount, and that the suggestion of $5,000 as the cost of the property would be entirely misleading? Mr. Dunham. Senator, do you want me to answer that from my personal knowledge ? Senator Smith. Yes. Mr. Dunham. I do not. I wish to state to you that you may have the benefit of all I know and that my testimony may not receive more weight than it deserves, I am advised that he has put a gin outfit on it. He told me he did so, and I am advised from other people that the gin outfit was a second-handed one and that it cost a few hundred dollars, other than the building. Is there anythinir further, Senator? Senator Smith. That is all I want to ask you. Mr. Dunham. I wish to say further, gentlemen, that I feel that Senator Smith made a very unfortunate statement last Friday after- LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 155 noon, and, Senator, I am sure if you had as intimate an acquaintance with Mr. Minter as I have and if you had known him as long as I have known him, you would not have made it. You stated last Fri¬ day, at the conclusion of the hearing, that Minter’s other statements were as erroneous as the statement he made about the amount that the number of bales of cotton produced in this area had brought. I wish to say that Mr. Minter and myself were reared in the same community in Marion County, and I wish to say, inasmuch as that statement was made by the Senator, who seemed to be entirely par¬ tial in this matter, that Mr. Minter is as scrupulously honest as any man in the world, and I do not think I pay him a compliment that he does not deserve when I say that he would swear to his own hurt, and I am sure that every gentleman who appears here from Colum¬ bus will be just as complimentary to him as I have been. From his general reputation and my personal knowledge, I think he is in¬ capable of making a dishonest statement. The Chairman. I think he explained his figures. He made the same mistake that one of the members of the committee made. Senator Smith. I meant no reflection upon the integrity of Mr. Minter at all. I showed he was mistaken about his cotton figures, and I also criticized his estimate of the size of his meetings, and the attitude of the people upon the reservation. Mr. Dunham. Senator, I am glad you said that. Now, if Mr. Min¬ ter is as good a man as I think he is—and I am sure that every gen¬ tleman from Columbus has the same high estimate of him as I have— if it is, he told you that he represented practically every interest in Chattahoochee County included in the camp zone. He said 98 per cent of the people opposed this camp. That is the truth, or it is not true—one or the other. He said he made the statement on his own personal information. If it is the truth*, it means that the people in that county are practically a unit against this proposition. If it is not the truth, of course it should not have any influence at all with you gentlemen. I do not know that there is anything else, gentlemen, that I could say to the committee. Senator McKellar. What is your own v\ew of that statement of 98 per cent ? Mr. Dunham. Whether they want it or not? Senator McKellar. Yes. Mr. Dunham. It so happens that I am temporarily in Washington, in the employ of the Federal Trade Commission, but I made a trip through Georgia and through that immediate section. I was at my home county, and in Chattahoochee County on the 15th day of last month, and my information was that the whole community was op¬ posed to it—every human being I saw was opposed to it. Now, they say that those who are not opposed to it are those who have, by being notified that they must vacate, and that the thing has been established and the Government would want possession of the property before they could begin the preparation of a crop, had bought elsewhere and moved to some other community or made arrangements to that end. I think this, gentlemen, being familiar with the season at which you have to begin the preparation of your crop—and that is all that that section is engaged in, an agricultural community—that if they do not 156 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. start now they can not make a crop this year, and I think it is highly important that these people should know just as quickly as your com¬ mittee can reach a conclusion, whether they must move or whether they will be permitted to stay there, else their damage will be very much increased by any delay. I think if you delay it 30 or 60 days, they will not be able to make a crop on their farms. If they stay there now, they can do it. These gentlemen say if the camp zone is to be abandoned, and the}- are to retain possession of their property, they do not want damages, and they can go ahead and make a crop and they will not sustain any substantial damages. Senator Smith. Have you any authority to renounce claims for damages for any of those people ? Mr. Dunham. None in the .world. I say they stated that to me. I have no authority. Senator Smith. That is all. Mr. Minter. Mr. Chairman, we have one other witness. He paid his own way up here—Mr. W. C. Schley. STATEMENT OF MR. W. C. SCHLEY. Mr. Schley. Mr. Chairman, what I would like to get is some ii> formation. The Chairman. You may make any statement you desire, Mr. Schley. Mr. Schley. Well, I am placed in a position now where I find that I never was before—I do not know what I can do. I have stated that I did not want to claim any damages, but I do want to know when I can go to work. I am an old man, and never at any time up to this day in my life has it ever happened that I did not know what I could do. I telegraphed our Senator, asking him when I could plant my corn or plant my grain—I should have said grain; I get them mixed every now and then—and here is his telegram in reply. I offer that in evidence. Senator Smith. I will read it. Mr. Schley. Oh, Senator, you will not recollect what it is about. Senator Smith (reading). “ I am unable to advise you.” Mr. Schley. I made this trip up here, gentlemen, to find if the gentlemen of this committee can tell me whether I can go to work or not. I am not here to give you any advice. I live right in that condemned zone. Senator McKellar. Do you want the Government to take your land or not ? Mr. Schley. No, sir; for God’s sake, don’t do that. Senator McKellar. Hoav do your neighbors feel about it? Mr. Schley. A majority of them are with me. I have not got any home and they have not got any. Here, I will show you a picture [exhibiting photograph]. That [indicating] is where I moved to and here is where I used to reside. You can see the beautiful lands. I do not think the Government needs it. I have barns and houses and personal property there that I do not think the Government wants. Of course, if the Government needs anything I have, it can have it. I would not raise my boys to be slackers; but I do not be¬ lieve the Government wants my property. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 157 Senator McKellar. Do you own this home [exhibiting photo¬ graph] ? Mr. Schlef . Yes, sir; that is my home, and all I have is right down there. I own something over 2,000 acres. Senator McKellar. You want to keep those pictures, I imagine? Mr: Schley. Yes, sir. You will notice there is my wife sitting down, and you see me standing up holding a horse [indicating on photograph]. Senator McKellar. But you want to remain there? Mr. Schley. Yes, sir; but if it is necessary I will work for the Government and feed myself and clothe myself. I raise sheep and wool and everything—cattle and horses. But I hope to God they are not all gone. If you can tell me, Mr. Chairman, when I can go home and go to work, then I will be satisfied. The Chairman. 1 think this committee will be able to determine this matter within the next two days, if we get all the evidence in here. Mr. Schley. I have been offered a fabulous price for a portion of my property. You see that rock [exhibiting]. I call that an oyster— a petrified oyster. That came off my property. I don’t want anything at all from the Government; all I want to know is when I can go to work. It is this suspense that is hurting us. This cane that I hold in my hand was gotten right off of my land. It is an oddity, don’t you think? It might be that I am an oddity, but I am at least honest. Senator McKellar. Suppose you could sell your home to the Gov¬ ernment for a big price? Mr. Schley. I would rather keep it. I don’t want a high price from the Government. I tr}' to do what is right. The Chairman. I suppose if it were necessary you would give it to the Government? Mr. Schley. Yes, sir; I can live on my own personal property, my war-savings stamps, etc. I have made a price on my property to the Government. Here is my letter. Senator McKellar. I will read it for you. [Beading] : Columbus, Ga., December 10, 1918. Replying to your request, I desire to offer my lands in Muskogee and Chat¬ tahoochee Counties, containing something over 2,000 acres, for the sum of $100 per acre. My land is improved, containing dwellings, barns, bridges, etc. I also have valuable water rights or power rights on Upatoi Creek. I would prefer not to sell at all. W. C. Schley. A Voice. We have a petition containing 150 names, about 125 of whom are landowners within the reservation, which we would like to have go into the record. The Chairman. Very well. (The petition mentioned is here printed as follows:) MUSCOGEE AND CHATTAHOOCHEE COUNTIES, GA. To the Secretary of War, Washington, D. C. Dear Sir: We, the undersigned citizen of Muscogee and Chattahoochee Counties, do earnestly express and enter our protest against the condemnation by the United States Government of 115,000 acres of very valuable agricultural 158 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. lands within the two counties known as Fort Kenning for a military reserva¬ tion, and hereby most respectfully petition the War Department to protect the 8,000 people living within the camp zone in their property rights, now that the war has ended and the emergency does not exist: O. E. Patrick, F. M. Patrick, R. L. Massey, E. L. Massey, C. J. Taft', E. C. Nix, F. E. Taft, W. M. Taft, W. D. Anderson, .Take Janson, Tom Brooks, Oliver Brown, N. F. Williams, H. L. Lockhart, Bimes William, J. M. Culverhouse, J. D. Amerson, L. B. Bell, L. L. Lockhart, Frank Phillips, G. L. McCardel, W. N. Peed, TV. G. Corter, J. W. Massey, W. H. Massey, W. L. Dovis, Wyley Jones, T. W. Jones, Aline Thomesson, J. W. Ginn, Bob Kimbers, Julius Dimon, M. E. McGuyrt, P. S. Siners, L. Bullard, IT. Bos- sett, Robert Bullard, Will Bullard, S. B. Simons, .T. B. Briant, S. B. Simons., jr., M. It. Comer, Eugene Brown, Robert Eelbeck, John Thomas, J. E. Massey, W. Y. Massey, B. W. Parker, Win. K. Schley, C. E. McBride, E. L. King, S. W. McGuyrt, Isham Porter, M. A. Anthony, A. B. Taft, Thomas C. Rutland, J. E. Hurley, Sam D. Snellings, Mrs. R. It. Snellings, T. D. Hunter, G. J. Thomason, J. H. Oliver, Daniel P. Darington, M. T. Pate, H. P. Ritch, Clias. W. Duke, J. It. Snellings, T. H. Talbot. G. B. Anglin, W. L. McFarlin, J. M. Tallet, H. .1. Davis, T. D. Davis, C. F. Simons, Z. W. Garrett, W. H. Bickley, C. G. Lee, A. M. Munro, E. T. Tomblin, H. C. Peck, J. G. Tomblin, M. M. Greer, B. T. Talbot, J. W. Livingston, F. W Johnson, J. E. McBride, E. C. McBride, H. E. Lockhart, H. F. Hughes, G. H. Ellis, K. H. Ellis, H. H. Ellis, Aubrey Ellis, N. Oliver, J. It. McClung, B. A. Willis, J. W. Murray, jr., W. T. McBride, A. G. Gomell, F. B. Tomblin, jr., J. T. McBride, J. L. Willis, J. W. Martin, F. Andrews, jr., D. A. Andrews, J. O. Taller, W. S. Russ, It. H. Taft, L. Lewin, S. C. Massey, J. M. Thornton, A. J. Floyd, M. B. Goble, J. W. Patrick, F. J. Kinard, W. H. Moon, W. D. McGuirt, W. S. Snipes, Tester King, T. J. Haden, Jno. B. David, E. B. Sturkie, Mrs. D. B. Sturkie, E. M. Howell, G. A. Ogletree, Wm. Massey, sr., It. A. Moye, J. T. Newsome and sisters, G. W. Tomblin, Matilda Spurlin, Homer Jones, Bartow Tomblin, J. J. McBride, E. W. Tomblin, it. L. Tomblin, J. W. Driboe, Lee Castor, Mille Castor, ,T. D. Dukes, Arthur Bedell, Leea Mays, W. A. Parker, T. .T. Driver, Eddie Bedell, W. H. Justus, C. D. Rodgers, T. C. Rodgers, Walter McBride. Mrs S. C. Parker, J. L. Ivey, S. H. Elliott, W. E. Colwell. Senator Smith. Mr. Miller would like to make a few remarks. The Chairman. Be as brief as you can, please, Mr. Miller. Mr. Miller. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen—— Senator Smith. What did yon pay for your ground? Mr. Miller. I bought this place—it is 100 acres less than Mr. Dunham told you about. It contains 1,305 acres. It cost me $3,500 for one tract and $1,500 for the other, as Judge Dunham stated. Since that time I have cleared it up and built on it; I have cleared up and ditched 200 acres of alluvial bottom land, as fine as there is in the Chattahoochee River Valley. It must have cost me not less— I want to be as conservative about it as possible—not less than $25 or $30 an acre to clear it and ditch it. Since that time I have built II new houses on it, with tongue-and-groove flooring in the houses, with brick foundations, with cypress shingles on the houses. These houses run from three to six rooms, and they are all occupied. This gin mill I bought—there are three gins instead of one. Senator Warren. Are those houses occupied by officers of the Army ? Mr. Miller. Occupied by tenants. Senator Smith. This is the piece of ground he sold to this man about whom we have been talking, who owned land inside of the reservation. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 159 Senator McKellar. If your property is worth that, how will you be hurt even if Mr. Psalmonds does give it up ? Mr. Miller. My integrity has been questioned, and that is all I care about clearing up. Senator McKellar. It has not been questioned by anybody here. Senator Smith. But the statement which has been made here that he sold this piece of property for $26,000 and that he bought it for $5,000 is an unjust one. Mr. Miller. My friend Dunham suggested that I put in a gin that cost me about $300. I bought the gin from the Bank of Shipley and paid $800, and after I bought it I shipped it to the Lumpus gin factory in Georgia, and I paid them between $2,300 and $2,400 to make the new gins. I built a gin house and seed house, which was a necessary adjunct, on the side of the railroad track, and my combined cost, as my itemized bills will show, is between $4,500 and $5,000. Since the sale. Mr. Psalmonds got all this equipment, in¬ cluding a cotton picker costing $538, a new gasoline engine that cost $500, with freight; he got all the gin equipment and all the material I had on the ground to construct a building 20 by 40. All of the material was there, a carload of brick, all the roofing, and every solitary article was there. He got all of that. Tne Chairman. Do you think this is material? Senator Smith. Just give us the total. Mr. Miller. It has cost me right around what I sold it for. I have offered, since there was some question about the camp coming there, to take it back from Mr. Psalmonds, and I should be glad to do it. In addition to that I had sold it a year ago for $15,000 to Mr. Ira Debois, without any personal property or buildings constructed on it, and when I sold it for that price, I considered I was selling it for less than its real value. Senator New. You say you have offered to take this back if this deal did not go through. Mr. Miller. Yes, sir. Senator New. Mr. Psalmonds would not be bankrupt. Mr. Miller. He would not accept my proposition. He considered that he had a bargain, and would not sell it back. Senator New. Would you still stand by your proposition to take it back if this deal does not go through? Mr. Miller. Certainly. Senator New. In that case Mr. Psalmonds would not be bankrupt as a result of anything that happened here. Mr. Miller. He would not. He could not pay for it unless he got the money from the Government. Senator New. But he could dispose of it. Mr. Miller. Yes, sir; and probably at a profit. But the point I made was if he was called on for this money and he could not get the money, it would bankrupt him. The Chairman. How many of the officers here are here to testify ? Senator Smith. Just Col. Mumma, to-day. The Chairman. Are both of you officers stationed at Camp Ben- ning? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then there are three to testify ? 160 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Sutherland. Have we not taken sufficient testimony on the military necessity for this project? Senator Warren. We have not taken any. . Senator McKellar. How long will it take? Senator Smith. It will only take Col. Mumma a few minutes. Senator McKellar. Let us go ahead then. I wish we could finish this matter. Senator Fletcher. We have heard the Assistant Secretary of War on the question of the military necessity. STATEMENT OF COL. MORTON C. MUMMA. Senator Fletcher. Will you please give your name and address to the stenographer? Col. Mumma. Col. Morton C. Mumma, United States Cavalry, as¬ sistant commandant, director of instruction at Camp Benning. Senator Smith. If the Senators will permit him to say w T hat he has to say and then ask questions, I think we will get along faster than if you break in. Col. Mumma. I am directed to appear before this committee by the Chief of Staff, to present to you our military reasons for desir¬ ing the retention of Camp Benning. I come here not with any brief for any locality, except in so far as that particular locality meets our military requirements, and I assure you that a careful, complete, and thorough investigation of all available and proposed sites leads us to the conclusion that Camp Benning is more nearly adapted to our military needs than any other site. I can assure you also that the Government does not now own, nor does it occupy by lease, any site which even approximates the military necessities for this camp. The military necessities are illustrated, if I may be permitted to read from the official cables of Gen. Pershing on the subject, begin¬ ning almost with his first cable to this side, No. 85, of August 8, 1917. Paragraph 3. Study here shows value and desirability of retaining our exist¬ ing small arms target practice courses. In view of great difficulty in securing ranges in France due to density of the population and cultivation recommend as far as practicable the complete courses be given in United States before troops embark. Special emphasis should be placed on rapid fire. Again, on September 25, 1917, cable No. 178: Paragraph 1. Referring paragraph 3 my number 85, longer experience condi¬ tions in France confirms my opinion highly important Infantry soldiers should be excellent shots. Thorough instruction and range practice prescribed our small arms firing manual very necessary. Our allies now fully realize their deficiency in rifle training. Difficult secure areas for target ranges in France even now when crops off ground. Much greater difficulty soon when plowing begins. After ground secured in France considerable time required for troops to construct ranges and improvise target material. In theater active opera¬ tions this time should be available for intensive training new weapons and formations. Therefore strongly renew my previous recommendations that all troops be given complete course rifle practice prescribed our firing manual be¬ fore leaving United States. Specialty of trench warfare instruction at home should not be allowed to interfere with rifle practice nor with intensive pre¬ liminary training in .our schools of soldiers, companies, and battalions. Again, on October 21,1917, liis cable No. 228: Paragraph 16. * * * Recommend that instruction of divisions in United States be conducted with a view to developing the soldiers physically and in LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 161 knowledge of sanitation, inculcating high standards of discipline, producing superior marksmanship both on the range and in field firing exercises in large bodies, ('lose adherence is urged to the central idea that the essential princi¬ ples ot war have not changed, that the rifle and bayonet are still ihe supreme weapons of the infantry soldier and that the ultimate success of the Army de¬ pends upon tlieir proper use in open warfare. * * Again on November 23, 1917, No. 298— Paragraph 3. * * * Except for conspicuous efficiency in action commis¬ sions will be given after December 1 only to candidate who satisfactorily completes the course at the small arms candidate school. Exception will be made in some unusual cases. Pershing. These cablegrams are all signed by Gen. Pershing. The next is dated December 22, 1917, his No. 108— Paragraph 1. Reference training of troops in United States, deficiencies noted here indicated, first, great laxity on the part of division and brigade commanders in requiring officers to learn their duties or to perform them efficiently; second, almost total failure to give any instructions in principles of minor tactics and their practical application to war conditions. Officers, from colonels down and including some general officers, are found ignorant of the handling of units in¬ open warfare, including principles of reconnaissance, outpost, advance guard, solution of practical problems, and formation of attack; third, no training whatever has been given in musketry efficiency as distinguished from individual target practice on the range. Many officers of high rank are hopelessly ignorant of what this training consists of. Subparagraph A. Division and brigade commanders must be brought to realize that their duties include something beside routine administration, and they must be required to conduct the training of their units in the above particulars. All the higher officers must be held directly and personally responsible for the instruction of their commands, and should be compelled by study and application to become competent to conduct and supervise personally the instruction of their officers in theoretical and practical work, and should conduct exercises themselves until subordinates are competent to do it. It is not enough for division commanders merely to issue orders on these subjects, but they must themselves be required to teach them in every detail. Necessary supervision by inspectors or by officers of the War Department in charge of training should be ordered to prevent ignorant and incompetent officers in high places from retaining command. Subparagraph B. Suggest that important work in practical application of tactics and thorough training in musketry for all units be taken by Maj. Gen. John F. Morrison and that these subjects be presented to our troops in great detail by his office; also that all officers of whatever rank, including those in Regular Army, be held up to a high standard of accomplishment. Many of our high regular officers do not know how to instruct men practically and they should either be compelled to learn or be removed. Subparagraph C. I would recommend Maj. Gen. Richard M. Blatchford, National Army, as assistant to Maj. Gen. John F. Morrison as Gen. Blatchford’s experience in musketry should be invaluable. Too much importance can not be placed upon this sort of training as exemplified in our school of musketry at Fort Sill, Okla., the elements of which should be thoroughly pounded into our Infantry. Pershing. I might say, by way of diversion, that those duties which were recommended to be placed upon Gen. Morrison and Gen. Blatchford were placed upon Col. Eames and myself, and we ‘were directed to carry out the instructions in the recommendations in this cable¬ gram. Senator McKellar. Why was it delayed as long as a year from the date of the cablegram from Gen. Pershing? Col. Mumma. That is something I do not understand. I fought for it for a year. Senator McKellar. Don’t you think it would have been very much better to have done this before the war than afterwards? 99137—19-11 162 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. When was this camp site first selected ? Col. Mumma. In June of last year. The two schools, the one at Fort Sill and my school at Camp Perry, were consolidated. We ar¬ rived in October and began functioning as soon as we could get ready. Senator New. Did Gen. Blatchford visit this site? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator New. Did Gen. Blatchford approve of it? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator New. At what time was this visit that he made ? Col. Mumma. I think, if I am not mistaken, sir, about November of 1917. Senator New. Were the lines of the camp as they were then con¬ stituted the same as they are now ? Col. Mumma. They were not, sir. . Senator New. They have been changed? Col. Mumma. Very materially. Senator New. I was going to ask how much they had been re¬ duced, if they have been reduced. Col. Mumma. To less than half. Senator New. You mean that at that time there were 270,000 acres ? ♦ Col. Mumma. As I understand it, 250,000 acres. Senator New. That was then contemplated? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator New. There are now about 135,000 acres? Col. Mumma. 115,000 acres are within the present boundaries. Senator New. No two witnesses have yet testified anywhere near alike as to the area. Col. Mumma. Those figures are almost exact—115,000 acres. Senator Warren. That is what is at present contemplated? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator Sutherland. Does the same necessity, now that the war is over, exist as existed before the war ended? Col. Mumma. I will answer, in my judgment and in the judgment of those who are charged with training men properly and the officer material, that the smaller the Army we have in peace times the greater the necessity for training to a high degree of efficiency those whom we have, ready for proper expansion. Senator McKellar. What camp were you from ? Col. Mumma. Camp Perry. Senator McKellar. How large is that? Col. Mumma. That is a Class A target range, where we teach only individual marksmanship. Senator Sutherland. Where is that located? Col. Mumma. At Lake Erie. Senator McKellar. Did you have any musketry practice at all? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; at Fort Sill. Senator McKellar. How large a place is that ? Col. Mumma. Fixty-six thousand acres. Senator McKellar. Did they get along pretty well with that? Col. Mumma. We got along up to the time of the war, when w-e had to expand for our proposed greatly increased new^ Army and up to LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 163 the time the reservation had to be taken over for the Field Artillery as a field of fire. There was not room enough for both, and, in fact, there was not room enough for the Infantry school alone. Senator Sutherland. With the reduced Army, will there not be room for both the Artillery and the small-arms firing school ? Col. Mumma. No, sir. Senator McKellar. Why not? Col. Mumma. Because the Field Artillery in school problems and school projects needs at least as much as we do, and those problems are going on constantly. The program of instruction calls for an eight-hour day, and because of the fact you can not spread over all outdoors, you have to have a succession of problems coming along from time to time. For instance, from 8 to 9 o’clock there will be one group covering an entire area, and then they will move from one area to another and take up the program of problems arranged for the particular day, and that is why we need what is apparently such a large area. Senator McKellar. What is to be done with Camp Eustis, which was designed for a similar purpose, except it was for the Artillery ? We have already bought that. Why could not Camp Eustis be used? Col. Mumma. I do not know where that is. Senator McKellar. That is about 15 miles from Norfolk. It is now being used for the Artillery. It seems to be admirably adapted for such a purpose as this. The Government has already bought it and paid for it, and why we should buy another new one when we have not only that but many others at which this project < ould be placed, is rather unusual to me. I do not see the necessity for it. Senator New. Camp Eustis is a Coast Artillery school, is it not? Col. Mumma. That is the reason I am not familiar with it. Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman and gentlemen, may I suggest that you let the Colonel finish what he has to say ? I admit that I broke the rule first by asking him a question. Col. Mumma. Here is a very significant cablegram: No. 952. April 19, 1918. Subparagraph IF. Great battle now raging makes certain that too much trench warfare militates against successful conduct great operations. Morale troops long accustomed duty in trenches lowered thereby. When driven into open men have feeling nakedness and helplessness. Current great battle also emphasizes extraordinary value highly trained riflemen and machine gunners. Subparagraph 1G. Recommend therefore following outline for training in United States: Thorough instruction in marksmanship to include known dis¬ tance firing for all men to 600 yards and in battle practice after method school musketry. Production excellent close-order drill gain of high discipline. Thorough instruction both officers and men in open warfare. Small units should be thoroughly grounded in patrolling in all forms of - and in attack and defense of minor warfare. Problems for such should customarily be prepared by next higher commander. Pershing. April 19, 1918, was the date that I finally succeeded in having approved the establishment of a small-arms firing school at Camp Perry. No. 990. . April 25 > 1918 - Paragraph 2. Reference target practice have been informed that none of our troops have had practice above 300 yards. Consider this very grave oversight that should be corrected as soon as possible. Target practice should embrace instruction in skirmish firing and practical application of the principles of fire 164' LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. direction, control, and discipline, with especial emphasis upon instruction of your officers in musketry as applied to tactical problem in open warfare. Request advice as to action taken upon above recommendations, and also information regarding what instruction has been carried out in divisions to come over within the next three months. And May 7, 1918, The Adjutant General replied as follows: Subparagraph 1A. With reference to paragraph 2 your 990, your information that target practice for troops has not been had above 300 yards incorrect. Course provides instruction to include 600 yards as well as combat firing and practical application of principles of fire control and discipline. School of musketry established Camp Perry, Ohio, for instruction of officers and noncom¬ missioned officers as instructors in divisions. And from that day to this Gen. Pershing has never sent another cablegram. Senator Sutherland. On that subject. Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Yet the plans for this school were not finally completed until October or November? Col. Mumma. No, sir. Well, the rush of the whole thing was what we had to meet. Senator Smith. Will you state your connection with the selection of this school and the present consolidation of schools in it, and the necessity for this combined work, and the advantages of the com¬ bined work ? Col. Mumma. Before the war our efforts were confined to the school of musketry at Fort Sill, Okla., where we sent specially selected officers and noncommissioned officers for a course of instruction in musketry. We depended upon our. system within the units them¬ selves to train officers and noncommissioned officers in individual marksmanship. The beginning of the war found the few men that we had well trained absorbed at once. The expansion was greater than we expected, and greater than we were able to provide for. The machine guns were also at Fort Sill—what little we knew about machine guns—and as we got further along in the war we came to the realization that we must have a far greater number of officers trained and ready than we were then providing for. Accordingly this small-arms firing school was established at Camp Perry, where I was placed in command, and a machine-gun training center was established at Camp Hancock. The school of musketry, as it was then called, embracing a few other branches, still continued to func¬ tion at Fort Sill. Senator Fletcher. You had had some target ranges at other places besides those ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; we had a few small target ranges at other places. Senator Fletcher. Such as at Camp Johnson? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; that was not in use, because the quarter¬ masters’ school was established there and had built over the range. Senator Fletcher. There was one up the coast here, was there not? Col. Mumma. One at Sea Girt, N. J. This school was established at Camp Perry, and one at Camp Hancock, and one continued to function at Fort Sill. It was decided by those in authortv that the one at Fort Sill should be turned over to the Field Artillery as their school of fire. They had had it at that place, but the expansion made LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 165 it necessary for one or the other to get out. The Infantry school of arms was directed to seek a new location. We did; and we pro¬ ceeded to the point the expansion had provided by establishing a special training camp at Camp Fremont, Cal., from which were to graduate in February 12,577 officers. These 12,577 officers were to come to us in the newly established school at Columbus, Ga., Camp Benning, and from that number and by a process of gradually break¬ ing into and sending out from the school we were to graduate 4,000 officers per month to provide for the great expansion then contem¬ plated. At Camp Perry I turned out in the five and a half months that I functioned there about 6,000 commissioned officers who had been sent to me from the divisions and training schools as thoroughly competent instructors on the use of the rifle and use of the pistol. Senator Sutherland. How long was your course of instruction? Col. MummA. One month. In addition to that I had sent to me 400 specially selected college boys from the training camp at Plattsburg and the Presidio of San Francisco and Camp Sheridan, for a special course with a view to sending them back to the colleges and institu¬ tions which they represented as instructors in rifle practice in those institutions. As their course was nearing completion I received in¬ structions from the War Department to examine and give commis¬ sions as second lieutenants to those I considered proper prospects. I went over the list carefully and finally did commission, with the authority of the War Department and under their direction, 339. I sent these 339 men to 339 colleges and universities throughout the country as instructors in marksmanship in those institutions. Early in September the governors of several States and Terri¬ tories— Senator Sutherland. That was in connection with the Student Army Training Corps? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; in connection with the Student Army Training Corps. Early in September the governors of these States and Territories were instructed to send, from their States, civilians to be trained in marksmanship. The governors of 13 States sent me 14 men from each of these States, including a team from Alaska, and we put those men through a special three-weeks course at Gov¬ ernment expense of transportation and subsistence, and sent them back to their several localities. So much impressed were these civilians with the necessity for a thorough knowledge of these mat¬ ters that 116 of them remained over for an additional two weeks entirely at their own expense. These men went back to their several localities as members of their local draft boards—a surprisingly large number were members of their local draft boards—and they went back and immediately set in motion the training of men who were in the next draft "to be called, and they had that in process of operation when the armistice came upon us. Those men took the men in the next draft to be called and took them in automobiles and got the patriotic citizens to furnish necessary transportation and took them on Saturdays or half holidays or Sundays and put them through what they had learned at this school, and so when the armistice came upon us the question of what was to be our policy for the future presented itself. After a considerable conference on the matter and a thorough sifting of the whole matter by the training branch of the 166 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. General Staff, it was decided that a school which would accommodate 2,000 students was about the proper size, regardless of the size of the Army, assuming that the new Army would at least be not less than what we had when we entered the war. This student body is to be made up of officers and noncommissioned officers, the propor¬ tion to be determined as our needs are indicated from time to time, and I may say that those needs would be largely indicated by the size of our Army. For the first two or three years this student body will be composed almost wholly of lieutenants. After that time the proportion of noncommissioned officers will be very much larger and I want to emphasize the fact that the noncommissioned officer was the first reservoir to which we turned for officer material when it became necessary to expand in order to get additional officers. Not only that, but we have made provision for the training, in this school, of National Guard officers, of selected men from colleges and universities which have military training in their curriculum, and for training of civilians at various periods of the year. That, gentlemen, is the pro¬ vision that we have made for the future. I want to s&y for those of us who are interested in this thing in a military way—interested in the continuance of this project—that we will, whatever you provide for, pledge you as we always have in the past, that we will produce the most that can be produced with the means at hand, and. if it is determined by this committee that the size of this project must be cut down, we are ready to cooperate in every way, but it is our judgment that the size of this project ought not to be cut down except perhaps in lopping off a few pieces of high- priced land around the outside, which would reduce it somewhat in size, though not affect the efficiency of the school. Gentlemen, to me the test is this—and this is the test I always applied when I examined a prospect for a commission, and I exam¬ ined more than a thousand of them individually myself—I apply this test to him: Was I willing, considering him as a prospect, provided he demonstrated his efficiency, to place the life of my son under his command, and would you be willing to have your sons under the command of men, responsible for their lives, without the necessary knowledge in the use of the arms that they fight with, or would you allow your sons to be under the command of an officer—and many of your -sons were under the command of such officers—who did not know these things, and who did not know these things because we had not the foresight to properly prepare for such an expansion. Senator New. You spoke there of the possibility of this committee taking the view that there was too much land included in this project and moving to reduce it somewhat. Now, I do not know that that would be true at all, but in case we happened to reach that point, what part of this land—I have not a map before me and it might be well to have it before us in order to talk intelligently about this—— Col. Mumma. I am familiar with the lines, and I can indicate them here. Senator New. What part of it do you think could be dispensed with to the least disadvantage? Col. Mumma. That portion which lies north of Buena Vista Road, and which lies along the tract known as the Coywood( ?) Reserve and LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 167 lies along the road known as the Lumkin Road and Escaline Hill, comprising about 17,000 acres, the value of which I take, by a reason¬ able estimate, to be about $1,000,000. With the exception of the por¬ tion of pine lands in the northeast corner of the reservation they are all very valuable lands. Many of them are home sites. It is sub¬ urban property, as it were. Senator New. That is near the city of Columbus? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator New. How close does the camp site lie to the city of Colum¬ bus at the nearest point? Col. Mumma. Approximately 2 miles—nearer than that to the cor¬ poration limits. Senator New. Is the land included in that section that you have de¬ scribed, lying nearest to the city of Columbus, higher priced per acre than the land lying farther away? Col. Mumma. Very much, sir. Senator New. That would be natural, of course. But you say very much. Now, tell us approximately what that is—how do those values run? Col. Mumma. I am informed that some of that suburban property would run approximately $1,000 an acre. There is some of it in the reservation and some along a place called Lawyers Lane that is very high priced. There is a small tract in there that the M. & M. Bank paid $6,000 for. It is a very small tract; not a large acreage. Senator New. It runs from a thousand dollars an acre down to $20 an acre in value? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Is it proposed to build the same sort of can¬ tonment that was built, say, at Camp Meade and Camp Upton and other places? Col. Mumma. No, sir; of course, in the interest of durability, to take care of the future, the buildings it has been proposed to con¬ struct are to be of frame with concrete foundations, covered with stucco, with a permanent roof. Senator New. What you wmuld call semipermanent? Col. Mumma. Semipermanent; yes, sir. Senator McKellar. With all the temporary buildings we have at various cantonments which could be used, and in view of our just having spent $25,000,000,000 of our money for this war, would it not be better to use these other camps that may be used, where the canton¬ ments are already built, rather than to make this expenditure of $14,000,000? I am not speaking of the land, but of the improvements. Col. Mumma. Senator, I do not think- Senator McKellar. Are we not to have some curtailment of ex¬ penses by the Army now that the war is over? Unless we do, we can not keep up this immense drain upon the resources of the country. If you gentlemen of the Army do not help us out, we will bankrupt our country. Col. Mumma. I appreciate that situation, and if it were possible and I honestly believed there was a single location adapted as a can¬ tonment and occupied as a cantonment, that has the terrain and other requirements, even approximately for our needs—— Senator McKellar. How many have you examined personally? 168 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Mumma. I have been to Camp Greene and Camp Sevier and the camp at Charlotte and Camp Dodge, Iowa. Of course, now we are getting to places where the climatic conditions made it impossible. I have been over the reservation at Camp Travers, I have been over the reservation at American Lake, and I have been over the reserva¬ tion at Camp Johnston, that the Senator referred to, and I was down at Camp Lee. Senator Sutherland. Have you been to Chickamaugua, Tenn. ? Col. Mumma. No, sir. Senator Fletcher. We have spent about $15,000,000 at West Point, Camp Knox. That is an artillery camp. Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; West Point, Ky. Senator Fletcher. And another one at Fayetteville, known as Camp Bragg, on which the Government has already spent $8,000,000, a tract comprising 130,000 acres. The question is, Could either of these be used for your purpose ? Col. Mumma. Well. I have not been—I have been through the reservation at West Point, Ky. I have never been to the one at Fayetteville, but I am advised they are both suitable. Senator McKellar. Were not those two camps in rivalry among the officers who selected this camp and was it not, at one time, thought of putting it all at one of these places? Now, that being the case, where there were three in rivalry and they selected two others first and then later on selected this one, can you say, without having made a careful examination, that one of these other camps that has been already selected and built, and the Government has already paid for it in large measure, can not be used instead of Camp Benning? Col. Mumma. I do not know that what the Senator has stated—I am not advised on that matter as to the consideration of West Point, Ky., and Fayetteville. I knew that Fayetteville had been under con¬ sideration. But if the camp at Fayetteville was under consideration it was only with reference to the location of the musketry part of it and had no reference to the portion which had to do with individual rifle training. Senator McKellar. You could have individual training—indi¬ vidual rifle training—on a tract of 1,000 acres, could you not? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; if it was properly located. Senator New. You spoke about Fort Dodge. You say now that “ we are getting up into the country where climatic conditions made it impossible.” I want to ask, as a matter of fact, out of curiosity, why the climatic conditions make it impossible ? Col. Mumma. There are so many months of the winter season in proportion to the summer months where outdoor work of this kind is impracticable. Senator New. Let us see how impracticable it is. I know the theory is that we have got to locate these camps in the South, where there are no extremes of cold during certain months of the year. Now, considering the fact that there are extremes of rain, perhaps, in some of those sections, climatic conditions which are true with re¬ spect to the South and not of the North, admitting it is colder in the North at this season of the year, for instance, than in the South, do you still regard it as impracticable to locate any of these camps in the Northern States? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 169 Col. Mumma. Assuming that the conditions of rain in the South equal the conditions of cold weather and snow, etc., in the North? Senator New. Yes. Col. Mumma. Well, I would consider, then, that they were almost equally impracticable. Senator New. I should think so, too. Now, I do not know that one possesses any great advantage over the other. For instance, stop and think. We have now troops who are up in Archangel, where it is colder—very considerably colder—for a very much greater period than at Fort Dodge or Fort Snelling or Missoula or any post that we have or at any place we might locate the training school. Do von think it better, or more conducive to the health of those troops up there, or the preparation of troops for such service as they are under¬ going now and other troops are undergoing at Vladivostok, that they be trained in southern Georgia than that they be trained at Camp Dodge, Iowa, or these other States? Col. Mumma. I think the important consideration of this particu¬ lar question of musketry and rifle training is that they learn it as quickly as they can learn it, and that the question of whether or not the health conditions at the particular places—I do not think that enters into it except for the time being. These troops you speak of in Archangel, their efficiency suffers by reason of those climatic con¬ ditions, and it would be absolutely impossible—I use that word ad¬ visedly—to do that work that we have in contemplation in any such location. Senator New. You are speaking of the Fort Benning site strictly as a training school and not as a camp for training or development of men for service ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; as a training school for instructors who go to it and leave it again in a short period. Senator Sutherland. Don’t you think the necessity for this camp zone is really late in getting into effect ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; and I so expressed myself. Senator Sutherland. We had observers with the armies in Europe during the war, did w T e not ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator Sutherland. Did we have any suggestions from them for the two or three years that the war was going on before we went into the war? Col. Mumma. We had such reports. Senator Sutherland. But no attention was paid to them ? Col. Mumma. I would say, in all justice, Senator, that attention was paid to them, but- Senator Sutherland. You did not even increase your rifle range up to 600 yards. Col. Mumma. We sent men over there that had not even loaded a rifle. Senator Sutherland. Didn’t we have observers there in the armies, with the European armies, before we want into the war? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; and they made their reports. Senator Sutherland. We then had an army which was supposed to be trained and should have been trained in modern warfare? 170 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Mumma. The French and British themselves were not giving attention to the rifle practice and rifle training that their later experi¬ ences made them believe was absolutely necessary. Senator Sutherland. We did not have to follow the French and British ? Col. Mumma. No, sir; but we were following the guide of the British and taking their experience as indicative of our needs. Senator Fletcher. You did not finish the answer you started to make with reference to the idea of the General Staff. Col. Mumma. The idea was, here we were confronted with some¬ thing that required great and sudden expansion, and we had to gather in large numbers of officers, as you gentlemen all know, from every possible source—that is, officer material—and we put them through a course of training, to say the least, that was improvised. It was very rapid and gave them only an insight, and when these gentlemen graduated from the training camps they were not by any means officers. They were only beginning to realize what the respon¬ sibilities of an officer were. They had to have all the technical train¬ ing they got after they came out of the training camps, and they came to us for that purpose, and I have had literally hundreds of officers come over to me, when I have met them in various places—■ a day does not go by when I am here in Washington when a gradu¬ ate of the rifle school does not come up to me in his civilian clothes or in uniform and say that one of the great things he got out of his training was that he was made a man who could teach some one how to shoot his rifle. That is the one great thing that every man who is armed with a rifle should know. Senator Sutherland. It seems very strange to me why that was not started before it was. Senator McKellar. It seems to me that if the war was going on it might be necessary that we have such a large school; but now that the war is over and you do not need that large school, necessarily, it must be made smaller, because we are not going to have the large standing army we have now—no one is figuring on that—and now that the war is over and you have those camps built and which can be used for this purpose, why should you build a $15,000,000 camp? That is something that it is impossible for me to understand. Col. Mumma. The point of difference between us is that we have no other camps that are suitable. Senator McKellar. You testified to 8 camps you had seen. My recollection is that, counting large and small, there are between 80 and 100 camps in this country. There was one at Fayetteville, N. C., that was considered for this very purpose and was started to be taken for this purpose. Surely the Government has acquired it and has already spent $8,000,000 there to build barracks. Surely, if it is suitable for this purpose—and certainly some of the Army officers thought so; maybe you did not examine it—but if it can be used for that purpose, it seems to me it is the duty of the Army to take that place rather than put the American people to the expense of $15,000,000 to build this new place. Col. Mumma. When Fayetteville was considered only one branch was considered. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 171 Senator McKellar. We already own Camp Perry, and you can use that for the individual rifle range. We have got to cut down these expenses. Col. Mumma. I agree w T ith you, Senator. That I must say to the committee. Then, give us $6,000,000 and tell us to build what we can. Senator Smith. I wish you would give to the committee your ex¬ planation of why Fayetteville is not suited for this purpose. Col. Mumma. Well, one of the essential elements in the establish¬ ment of a school of this kind is the necessity for saving time in going back and forth from your living quarters to your workbench, and at Columbus we have that in the most ideal state. We have our target range and our firing line just 150 yards from the living quarters. Senator McKellar. Can you say that you do not have those same conditions, or virtually the same conditions, in Fayetteville, N. C. ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Although you have not been there? Col. Mumma. I have a report on it. Senator Smith. Is it not true that the land at Fayetteville is heavily wooded and it would cost $100 an acre to clear it out? Col. Mumma. I have no knowledge of the cost of clearing the timber, but I have the report of an officer I sent there to examine Fayetteville when it seemed certain this committee was going to take us away from Columbus, and that officer reported to me that the Fayetteville site was not at all suitable; that the visibility was bad; that there were isolated places where artillerists could observe, but in our case, where the infantryman has to get down on his belly to shoot, it is not satisfactory; that the range we would have to have for a class A range is 3 miles from the living quarters. Senator New. You said something a while ago that seemed highly significant—“ Give us $6,000,000 and tell us to do the best we can.” That implies a very great reduction of the expense of the original proposition put before this committee for its consideration. Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator New. Now, just tell us practically what prompts that sug¬ gestion from you. Col. Mumma. Gentlemen, I was prompted in making that sugges¬ tion by my great desire to save to the service this very important school, the"one in which the bulk of the service is vitally interested. Senator New. And it is your belief, I take it, that we can get what we really need there for very much less than is contemplated here ? Col. Mumma. I do not think we can get what we need, but we can get something with which we can function and put forth our very greatest efforts, and I think we can give you something for your money. Senator New. Speaking for myself, I am a great believer in get¬ ting what we need. I am not trying to get away from that or to reduce our actual needs at all, but I am for eliminating every possi¬ ble dollar of expense that can be eliminated. I agree with Senator McKellar that the situation here calls for an economy of the most rigid kind, but I do not mean by that that I think we ought to economize to the detriment of our real needs. Now, what I want to get at is an expression of just what our real and actual needs are, our minimum needs. Now, I asked a question a little while ago 172 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. about a possible reduction in this site, and you said in answer to those questions you thought it might be materially reduced in area and told where; that you thought part of it might be lopped off. and that that would save a million dollars. Col. Mttmma. In land. Senator New. Well, that is all right. That is a million dollars, just the same. What I want to get at is just where another mil¬ lion dollars may be lopped off here, if it may be lopped off without too great damage to this enterprise or to this conception we have here for a training camp. Are there any other suggestions that you can make? Col. Mumma. Well, Col. Eames and myself went over our layout, as they call it in the construction division, for building- Senator New. Let me interpose one thing right here. It would be hardly fair—and I do not want to put you in the position of ask¬ ing you to pare down your estimates that have been made here by the General Staff—I do not want to embarrass you by asking you to suggest something that maybe you feel you should not. Col. Mumma. Senator, I assure you that it is no embarrassment to me to suggest that there can be some reduction in the expense at¬ tached to this, because I have always believed so. Senator New. That is what I am trying to get at, what your real conception is of the minimum needs of this camp. Col. Mumma. In the first place, I have believed that the estimates of the construction division were in excess of what the actual cost would be, but they were, perhaps, in a better position to estimate than I, though I had with me an engineer who was certainly well up on- Senator Warren. I should like to ask you right there a question. You speak of estimates. When were those estimates made? Col. Mumma. There were various estimates made, Senator Warren. Senator Warren. What is the condition now ? What have you expended, if anything, on this project? Col. Mumma. About $1,700,000. Senator Warren. From what fund did you expend that? Col. Mumma. From the lump sum. Senator New. Is that for construction or for land? Col. Mumma. Some for construction and some for land. Senator New. How much for construction? Col. Mumma. All except $130,000 for land. Senator New. There has been more than a million dollars expended for construction? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator Warren. So far you have had no appropriation for this project direct? Col. Mumma. Not as a project as of itself. Senator Warren. You have, notwithstanding the law in peace times, which requires land to be bought by direct legislation with an appropriation for it, taken advantage of the liberty under the war conditions to take from the lump fund without any designation on the part of Congress as to what should be done with it, and have gone into this project? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 173 Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; the money was allotted to this project from the lump-sum appropriation and there is to the credit of the disburs¬ ing officer noAv some $6,000,000, or very close to that figure. Senator McKellar. You are a West Pointer? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator Warren. You now want an appropriation for the balance, or is it your intention to take it from the same source ? Col. Mumma. We want this committee to authorize us to use that which has been allotted and which is to the credit of that project. Senator Warren. How much is that? Col. Mumma. $6,000,000. Senator McKellar. Allotted by whom ? Col. Mumma. The Secretary of War. Senator New. Are you a member of the board that first located that project? Col. Mumma. I was not a member of the board that first went there. I was a member of the board that went from the War Department when the matter was under consideration as a place to which we could transfer my school. At first this was considered as a school of mus¬ ketry, but then it became apparent from the standpoint of overhead economy and coordination of training that the two should be merged in one, and as a peace-time project it has become still further apparent that we should make still further mergers and should arrange to merge the tank, machine gun, small arms and infantry school of arms all in one project. Senator Fletcher. How many men do you expect to have there at one time ? Col. Mumma. About 10,000, of which 2,000 would be students. Senator Fletc her. How would you divide them? Col. Mumma. Tanks, machine guns, musketry, and markmanship, and automatic rifles, and 37-millimeter cannon, etc. Senator Fletcher. This is for the training of officers ? Col. Mumma. Officers and noncommissioned officers. Senator Fletcher. How many men have you there? Col. Mumma. I have not seen the returns for some days, but ap¬ proximately 1,800. Senator McKellar. Then you would train more officers there in a year than existed in our Army prior to the war ? Col. Mumma. If they were available. Senator McKellar. You would not expend this immense sum of money unless you did do it. That must contemplate a very large estab¬ lishment, if you are going to train 10,000 officers in a year. Col. Mumma. It would be 4,000 a year. The course is designated on a six-month basis. Senator McKellar. That would be 20,000 men ? Col. Mumma. No, sir; two classes of 2,000 each would be 4,000. Senator McKellar. I thought you said 8,000 officers and noncom¬ missioned officers from the Army and 2,000 students, and, according to my mathematics—although 1 will admit that I am a very poor mathematician, and some of my mathematics got one of the gentle¬ men in trouble yesterday—make 10,000. Col. Mumma. I think that is approximately correct. 174 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator McKellar. Then there would be 20,000 officers trained there a year, which would indicate a very large army. Col. Mumma. That 8,000 does not constitute students. The 8,000 are permanent personnel—officers and enlisted men, instructional staff, utilities, and various individuals necessary for the operation of the school. Senator Warren. What is that based on as an entire army? Are you at liberty, or have the staff arrived at any point where they can state what they propose as a standing army ? Col. Mumma. I have no knowledge of what the staff have arrived at. I have, in my own mind, figures upon which I have based this estimate, and that is an army of 200,000 rifles. Senator Warren. Which would be an army of probably half a million men altogether ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator Warren. As a matter of fact, from what I have observed— perhaps you can inform us—it is undoubtedly the intention to bring in a recommendation of that kind from the General Staff calling for an army of 500,000 men ? Col. Mumma. I have no knowledge of that. Senator Warren. All these things point that way. The amount of your force that you are going to have there is a sufficient number to make up the integral part of an army of 500,000. Col. Mumma. I think if each officer of the Army who is in a posi¬ tion to make a recommendation is called upon to make a recommenda¬ tion to this committee that you would find a rather unanimous rec¬ ommendation of about that figure. Senator Warren. In that case we have a right to expect a recom¬ mendation of that sort from the War College ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. ♦ Senator Warren. Don’t you think we should get that recommenda¬ tion before we start on with these projects? Col. Mumma. I tried to make it clear that at this particular school the size of it is only very indirectly dependent on the size of the Army. That might not be clear, but we worked it out in a military way that even though we went back to our prewar status that we ought to train that many officers and noncommissioned officers, the proportion of officers in this student body of 2,000 being determined by the needs at the time, which would be largely indicated by thei size of our Army. Senator Warren. Here is what you would be establishing, Colonel, without one single syllable of permanent law therefor. You would be establishing a school that apparently was far more important and far more far-reaching in its activities, in its intent and purposes, than West Point ever was; you would be establishing, under a lump-sum appropriation, made for the war, after the war is over, and probably without legal right, with a chance of the Comptroller of the Treasury holding up your appropriation at any moment. You would be doing that all of your own accord without any legal right from Congress at all, and it seems to me that if the department desires to take any such step as this, to establish so important a school as this, that it should prepare a bill and come before Congress and let Congress appropriate the money for it, and not to undertake to buy this great LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 175 project and dispossess people of properties, who have owned them for generations, and have their homes and their churches and their schools and their graveyards established there—dispossessing those people without a shred of law. I say, if you have any such scheme as that you gentlemen in the Army should come before us with a bill and let us know about it and not handle it as a war-time emergency. That is my judgment about the matter. Col. Mumma. I think, Senator, the reason we have not taken that course is that the War Department, during the time of the emergency and prior to the armistice, had already contracted, if not a legal, at least a moral obligation, to purchase this land. Senator McKellar. But we will take care of that. Senator Smith. I think he should be allowed to answer. He is on the stand. Let him give the standpoint of the staff, for which he speaks. Col. Mumma. I was just explaining, Senator, that that is the reason why we have not taken the other course. Senator McKellar. As far as I am concerned, as a member of the committee, there is no man to whom you have morally obligated your¬ self that I will not vote to reimburse to the very limit, but I say you can never get a great project through this Congress with my support on terms like this, namely, under the supposition that we are in a state of war and under a lump-sum appropriation th^t was given to carry on the war, to establish a great permanent institution anywhere in our country- Senator Smith. Now, I ask the colonel to go ahead and answer this question as to why they went ahead in this matter as they did. Col. Mumma. It was only because we had already committed our¬ selves and initiated construction—started construction—and begun the instruction of the students, and are still doing it, and there was already an expenditure from this sum; and whether or not this project is completed under a special bill or under an authorization by this committee or otherwise, the same amount of money will have to be expended, and the money comes from the same place. Senator Fletcher. Is there any part of this training that you are giving down there furnished at West Point? Col. Mumma. No, sir. Senator Sutherland. This is a post-graduate school to West Point? Col. Mumma. West Point could not possibly take the time, Senator, in its curriculum to do this thing, even if it had the terrain. Senator Sutherland. Is this not rather in the way of a post¬ graduate school to West Point? Col. Mumma. Entirely; yes, sir. Senator Sutherland. Carrying the work along in a professional way? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; just as the various service schools are doing, like the Engineering School at Washington Barracks, and all tl>e other essential schools that we have established. Senator Sutherland. With the West Point work as a basis? Col. Mumma. As the educational basis, Senator McKellar. As I understand you, under requests from Gen. Pershing, beginning in 1917 and ending in June, 1918, this school of fire, or whatever it is called, at Fort Sill was conducted, and was 176 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. conducted, according to your testimony, as I understand the facts, with great success. Col. Mumma. It had existed away back in 1905. Senator McKellar. At all events, you conducted it and conducted it with success, and our soldiers went abroad after having been in¬ structed there ? Col. Mumma. Those who had had an opportunity of taking the course at that school derived great benefit and were very valuable men. Senator McKellar. In like manner as those who were schooled at Camp Perry, where you were. As you say, they had received im¬ mense benefits, and they had thanked you for the service you had rendered them in fitting them for their duties-- Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. That was done at Camp Perry ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Was some other postgraduate branch of the service carried on at Camp Hancock? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Why change all this, that being very fine ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; fine but not adequate. Senator Smith. Why not let him answer ? Tell him why this other is necessary. He says, “ Why change it ?” Senator McKellar. I mean, after the war is ended. Senator New. The Senator is speaking about the last war, and the colonel is speaking about the next war. Col. Mumma. I have an idea that there is not very much use of the fire department until we have a fire. I am looking for the next war, all right. I do not know when it is going to come, nor does anybody else, but an examination of the front pages of the newspapers from day to day would not indicate that we were going to live forever in peace and harmony. Senator Smith. Colonel, you had Camp Perry and Fort Sill and had these artillery camps. M(hy was there a necessity for this com¬ bination of these four camps at Camp Benning? Col. Mumma. Essentially it is a necessity from an economical and from an administrative and coordinating standpoint. If we con¬ tinued Camp Hancock, Camp Perry, and in conjunction with Camp Perry, Jacksonville, for the winter, or continued Fort Sill, or wher¬ ever else you sent the musketry branch of this school, you would have four separate schools in operation. Regardless of where this school is located, or where these schools are located, we must have suitable terrain and suitable buildings for the purpose. We did not have, at the beginning of the war, enough military posts and enough building construction to house the troops we had at that time. Senator Warren. Are you disposing of any of those you propose to discontinue the use of, or do you propose that the Government will continue in ownership and occupation of them ? Col. Mumma. Fort Sill has been turned over to the school of fire of the Field Artillery. Senator Warren. You remember back when the Staff brought to the attention of this Congress the fact that they had too many posts ? Col. Mumma. Too many little ones. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 177 Senator Warren. Except a few on the Atlantic border and the Mexican border, they proposed to dispose of them, and, in fact, did discontinue the use of a number of them. Of course, it transpired they could not be sold to any advantage, and the Government still owns them and buys new post’s, neglecting to fill the old ones. I want to get from you the attitude the Staff entertains with respect to these other camps, in connection with the situation that you are describing. Now. you have the old schools and want this one. Do you want to abandon the other ones? Col. Mumma. I am not authorized to speak for anyone, but I un¬ derstand that Camp Hancock, the machine-gun school, is scheduled for abandonment. I do not think it is contemplated to retain that location. The school at Camp Polk, at Raleigh, N. C.- Senator Warren. I am speaking about those you spent immense sums in buying. Those that are rented, of course, will take care of themselves. Col. Mumma. If the Senator is asking for an expression of per¬ sonal opinion- Senator Warren. I only ask you to speak from your own knowl¬ edge. Col. Mumma. Speaking for myself, I think, if we should have a peace-time Army commensurate with our needs, as determined upon by Congress, of any size, I think it would be false economy to aban¬ don, certainly for their period of durability, these various canton¬ ments—not tent camps, but cantonments—in the United States, and I think they ought to be retained and occupied. Senator Warren. How about the permanent posts? Col. Mumma. I do not think there is any intention except to oc¬ cupy the permanent posts. Senator Warren. They are very much unoccupied now. Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; and until the regular organizations get back from the other side they will be, although they have taken steps to occupy some of these posts by sending a regiment here and a com¬ pany there- Senator Warren. They are generally companies; but the idea is that they will ultimately be battalions ? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; when the bulk of the Army, ifrhich is on the other side, is returned. Senator Warren. Excuse me for asking, but I like to get the opinion of a prominent officer, like yourself, but to me it iii not pleas¬ ant, that a camp, when started, is to be abandoned. Senator New. That is one of the difficulties that this committee has to face. We hear that this, that, and the other place is to be aban¬ doned in order that some other place may be established. Take, for instance, the report that has been made here about the post at Toby- hanna, Pa. That, I understand, is not one that corresponds in char¬ acter to the school you expect to establish at Benning, but still it is an established Artillery school, as I understand. Col. Mumma. It had for its original purpose the instruction of National Guard Artillery. _ _ Senator McKellar. . Well, the National Guard has beer abolished. Col. Mumma. Not all. Nine States have National Guar Is. 99137—19-12 178 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator New. You have that ground at that place, and it was pur¬ chased by the Government, and after due inspection by an officially appointed board composed of high officers, and all that. Now, it is proposed to abandon that. I do not know whether that is absolutely authentic or not, but it is one of the things that this committee has put up to it and which bothers us. Col. Mumma. Were you asking me a question, sir? Senator New. A question in the form of an observation. Senator Sutherland. It was stated the other day distinctly by the Secretary of War and the Assistant Secretary, Mr. Crowell, that if they were to abandon any of these projects that this project could be abandoned with least discomfort to the Army than any of them, because there had been less work done on it and less money spent on it. Col. Mumma. I think that was the sole basis of the recommenda¬ tion, and not from the standpoint of military necessity. Senator Sutherland. That was the recommendation. Col. Mumma. That was the newest one and the one upon which the least money had been expended. Senator Warren. How much money had been expended? Col. Mumma. About $1,700,000. Senator Sutherland. They were apparently not as impressed with the military necessity as you are. Senator New. I think the impression we have of the fact they were not particularly impressed with the military necessity of it is due to what they said. Senator Smitk. You have abandoned your school at Raleigh? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. You have moved it to Camp Benning? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. You are in process of abandoning the machine-gun school at Augusta? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. And are arranging to transfer that to Benning? Col. Mumma. Yes, sir. That is in process now. Senator Smith. Those rented lands need not be any longer rented? Col. Mumma. No, sir. Senator Smith. You have transferred your Fort Perry school? Col. Mumma. That was the first one, following Fort Sill. Senator Smith. And you have transferred Fort Sill? Col. Mumma. The transfer of. the school from Camp Perry and the consolidation with the Fort Sill school is also a war-time measure. Senator Smith. The procedure for the condemnation of the land started before the armistice was signed? Col. Mumma. November 2. Senator Fletcher. Have you ample accommodations for the people you have now ? Col. Mumma. We are in an emergency camp now—a tent camp. Senator Smith. And you estimate that the entire project could be completed for $6,000,000 ? Col. Mumma. If the committee will authorize us to expend the amount in the hands of the Treasury to the credit of the disbursing officer, we will do the best we can and give you your money’s worth. Senator Sutherland. You have some material on hand? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 179 Col. Mumma. Yes, sir; we would rely on the construction depart¬ ment supplying us with a great deal of material which is there and which will go to waste unless used. Senator New. There are certain other witnesses I would like to hear before we are through with this. I do not think we can pro¬ ceed now. I was not suggesting that we should continue now. I meant there was still other testimony that we ought to have. Senator Smith. I think that is true. I want to say to the com¬ mittee that I expect to show you figures—first, show you law, which I think will be convincing, that the Government is the owner of this land and is obliged to pay for it wherever the parties require it; that the institution of this suit for the property and the actual taking of possession, with the notice to the parties to leave, changes the title and vests it in the Government and leaves only the question of fixing the value wherever the property holder sees fit to claim it. I ex¬ pect to show you, also, additional statements from officers as to the necessity for a camp of this kind. I think I can show you that it can be completed with the elimination of this very valuable land right near Columbus, as suggested by the colonel, and put in under a practical working plan at very much less than $14,000,000, or at about between $5,000,000 and $6,000,000. Senator New. Now, Senator- Senator Smith. I am going to present that from officers who have worked it out in detail. Senator Fletcher. What time do you want the hearing continued to? Senator Smith. Thursday, at half past 10. Senator Fletcher. Very well, the hearing is adjourned to Thurs¬ day morning, at half past 10. (Whereupon, at 1.50 o’clock p. m., the hearing was adjourned until Thursday, January 16, 1919, at 10.30 a. m.) ■ LAND FOE ARTILLEEY TRAINING FIELDS. THURSDAY, JANUARY 16, 1919. United States Senate, Committee on Military Affairs, Washington , D. 0. The committee met pursuant to adjournment in the committee room, Capitol, at 10.30 o’clock a. m., Senator George E. Chamberlain presiding. Present: Senators Chamberlain (chairman), Beckham, Kirby, Mc- Kellar, Warren, Weeks, Sutherland, and New. The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Is there any¬ thing further in the nature of protest, or anyone to be heard in that behalf ? STATEMENT OF MR. C. C. MINTER, OF CUSSETA, GA. Mr. Minter. Mr. Chairman, I notice here a telegram purporting to be a resolution from the Textile Association of Columbus, and signed by only two manufacturers. There are some 16 or 18 cotton mills in Columbus, the Hamburger Cotton Mills, the Swift Mills, and Mr. J. D. Massey and others. I think Mr. Massey is connected with a little knitting mill there. There are quite a number of mills there, and the bigger mills do not seem to be represented. I would like, Mr. Chairman, to have these telegrams go into the record. The Chairman. They will be incorporated in the record. Senator Smith. One telegram shows a resolution passed by the entire textile mills in that association. I have it here and will offer it now. The Chairman. They will all go into the record. (The telegrams referred to are here printed in full, as follows:) Cusseta, Ga., January 16, 1919. Senator Chamberlain, Chairman Military Affairs Committee, Washington, D. C. Impossible for farmers to secure houses elsewhere in time for this year’s crop. All improved farms are occupied in the cotton belt. Good prices for cotton has made this condition. High prices of lumber and scarcity of car¬ penters makes building of houses impossible. Whether your decision may be as to necessity for Fort Benning, those farmers who so desire should be al¬ lowed to make this year’s crop. Columbus people are misrepresenting local conditions. Columbus newspapers are suppressing facts. Only five landowners have moved from camp territory; they couldn’t move; had no money to buy new farms. Soldiers with guns and target practice moved our county before any effort was made to secure titles. The emergency could not be so pressing. Such speedy confiscation of property and abandonment of farms will cause great suffering and loss of property. This is not the territory for which op¬ tions were taken last year. Farmers in this territory had no notice. Chas. N. Howard, Jr., Chairman Executive Camp Committee, Chattahoochee County. 1S1 182 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Cusseta, Ga., January 15, 191$. Senator Chamberlain, Chairman Military Affairs Committee, Washington, D. C.: My husband died two days ago. Worry over loss of home helped to kill him. If Fort Benning is established I and nine fatherless children will lose a home which would support us. We will have to leave relatives and friends and schools and the country where he is buried. Help us save our home. Mrs. Eula P. Salmonds. Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1919. George E. Chamberlain, Washington, D. C.: We beg to submit herewith copy of resolution this day passed by the Columbus Textile Association, to wit: “Resolved, That we are advised that there is a disposition upon the part of the United States Government to abandon the building of Fort Benning in Muscogee and establishment of this fort as a permanent institution would be of great military value and also of material assistance to the respective com¬ munities involved, and whereas we are further advised that a large number of the people living in the zone marked out for the establishment of said fort have abandoned their homes and purchased and contracted for the purchase of homes elsewhere in order to comply with the order of the commanding officer of said fort, and whereas we realize that the direct and consequential damages which will flow from an abandonment of said project by the United States Government to the owners and others living in said zone will be almost irreparable and difficult to estimate in dollars and cents, therefore we earnestly petition that you use your best efforts to have Fort Benning carried on to com¬ pletion and that work be resumed at the earliest possible moment.” J. D. Massey. Muscogee Manufacturing Co., Hamburger Cotton Mills, Edward W. Swift, President. R, K, Webb, Secretary and Treasurer. Swift Spinning Mills, Swift Manufacturing Co., Edward W. Swift, President. H. L. Williams, President. W. O, Berry, Varnum Hotel, Washington, D. C.: Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1919. I want to say 90 per cent of Muscogee farmers have not moved and don’t want to move and don’t want to sell land. E. T. Tomblin. Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1919. F. LT. Garrard, New Willard Hotel, Washington, D. C.: As a property owner in Chattahoochee County camp area, want to be re¬ corded as favoring completion of Camp Benning. Did not favor project at its inception, but since condemnation proceedings have caused loss of all our labor and property owners have traded elsewhere, now desire project completed and quick settlement for lands. W. R. Martin. Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, Washington, D. C.: Tenants all left under orders of the United States Government. Under cir¬ cumstances feel justified in insisting on Government paying for land as agreed. Majority landowners will make same contentions if agreement not complied with. W. E. Cody. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 183 F. U. Garrard, New Willard Hotel, Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Washington, D. C.: « made tho i' ough canvass of camp area located in Muscogee County and nnd Jo per cent of labor moved out of area. Large per cent of property owners S. A. Ginn. F. U. Garrard, New Willard Hotel, Columbus, Ga., January l) t , 1919. Washington, D. C.: At least 90 per cent of farm labor and tenants have moved from Chattahoochee County camp area, and others are moving daily. Ninety-five per cent of propertv owners, including myself, in this area favor completion of camp project. Lands from Cusseta Road to river practically depopulated S. B. Ivissick. Columbus, Ga., January 10, 1919. Hon. IIoke Smith, United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: McElvey plantation, 700 acres in Fort Benning area totally unfit now for farming. Every tenant moved. Some been on place 30 years. Have camp retained. Frank P. McElvey. Senator Hoke Smith, Washington: Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Columbus people heartily appreciate your efforts in behalf of the Fort Benning project, an establishment entirely essential to a standing army, even small though it should be, and a large majority of our people are in favor of it as a permanent institution. We are merely sending you this in order to assure you in your advocacy of the project you are supporting the view of a large majority of the people in this section. Information which I am sure is authentic leads me to believe that most of the people residing in the reservation are now in favor of its completion and permanency. W. H. Tucker, Editor Enquirer-Sun. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Hon. W. C. Wright, House of Representatives, Washington, D. C.: Our best information is a large majority of the farmers have moved out of the camp area; the majority of the remaining have sold their farm provender, and 95 per cent of the farm labor has gone, and it will be impossible for them to organize their farm for this year. They are anxious for Fort Benning to be built. • Rural Department Columbus Chamber of Commerce, Columbus Roberts, Chairman. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, United States Senator, Washington, 1). C.: Your fight for permanent “ Infantry School of Arms ” for Georgia appre¬ ciated. I have utmost confidence of your success if you continue the fight. Thorough investigation shows entire camp area depopulated, except in few isolated cases. Whole district 99 per cent in favor of project. What you do will make everlasting friends in this district for you always. With best wishes, I am, R. W. Page. i 184 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: Do all you possibly can to have Fort Benning completed. If project killed this community will never recover from loss and damages. W. T. Harvey Lumber Co. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: Trust you will use all possible effort toward continued development and permanent establishment Fort Benning. We are sure great majority all classes our citizens favorable to this request. Required labor can not interfere with established industries, as we are daily coming in contact with increased number laborers seeking employment. Cherocola Co. Columbus, Ga., January Uf, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: Whole State would suffer if Infantry School of Arms were lost. Your fight for it made worlds of friends for you. Keep it up; we are back of you to the limit. J. J. Yarbrough. Columbus. Ga., January 13, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: All business enterprises interested and anxious for the completion of Fort Benning. If abandoned this community will never recover from the bad effect, and it were a thousand times better never to have been undertaken. We know that you will do all you can to have this school completed. National Show Case Co., J. H. Dimon, Secretary and Treasurer. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, Washington, D. C. We appreciate the efforts you are using in behalf of Fort Benning. Our salesmen inform us that majority of people in Chattahoochee County in favor of Fort Benning. Hecht Bros. Co. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Senator Hoke Smith, Washington, D. C. Abandonment of construction Fort Benning would inflict great injustice to the people within zone. Under Government orders they have moved out and made other arrangements. Labor and material are plentiful. Confirmation the project seems essential. F. J. Dudley. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, United States Senate, Washington, D. C.: At first we were opposed to location of military camp near Columbus, believ¬ ing it would disastrously affect labor conditions. Now find we were mistaken. Labor situation at this time as good or better than before. Believe abandon¬ ment of Camp Benning at this stage would be disastrous to business interests of our community. Lummus Cotton Gin Co. LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 185 Senator Hoke Smith, Washington, D. C.: Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. A few men in this section who put their own interests above those of their country opposed the building of Fort Benning as a United States military train¬ ing school. These have dwindled until their number are infinitesimal. We employ a minimum of 40 men and women. We now have all the help we want and have had all the while. Columbus Coca Cola Bottling Co. Macon, Ga., January Ilf, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, Washington, D. C.: Hope you will do all you can to have the Infantry School of Arms at Colum¬ bus completed as it means much for our Army and to our State. R. L. McIvenney. Savannah, Ga., January 13, 1919. Hon. Hoke Smith, Washington, D. C.: Please do all you can to aid Columbus in keeping its Infantry camp. Savan¬ nah makes appeal for its sister city on the Chattahoochee. The Savannah Press. Columbus, Ga., January 10, 1919. A. L. Kunze, President Columbus Chamber Commerce, Washington, D. C.: At annual meeting of Rosehill Improvement Association, with largest attend¬ ance in history our organization, I was instructed by motion unanimously carried to wire the Columbus delegation offer of our assistance in every way possible to retain Fort Benning. We are back of you solidly, and are yours to command. Rosehill Improvement Association, A. E. Page, President. Columbus, Ga., January 12, 1919. A. L. Kunze, Raleigh Hotel, Washington, D. C.: Columbus is unanimously behind you in your efforts to retain Fort Benning. Sol. Loeb Co. Columbus, Ga., January 12, 1919. Hon. A. L. Kunze, Washington, D. C.: Members of Harmony Club, in annual session, pledge you their unlimited support on the camp project. Sam Kaufman, President. Columbus, Ga., January 13, 1919. Senator Hoke Smith, Washington, D. C.: Understand much misrepresentation regarding labor supply here being used against Fort Benning proposition. Labor supply here ample and growing in¬ creasingly more plentiful. Believe discontinuance of Fort Benning will bring serious loss to this entire section and city, and to the Government. Enw. W. Swift, President Muscogee Manufacturing Company and Sicift Spinning Mills. 186 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1019. Hon. Hoke Smith. Washington, D. C.: At a meeting of the Rotary Club of this city held to-day a resolution was adopted indorsing Fort Benning as a national necessity for permanent military training. Your support is greatly appreciated, and you are urged to do all within your power to see that this project is successfully completed. Rotary Club of Columbus. Thomas W. Peters, Secretary. Columbus, Ga., January 15, 1019. Senator Hoke Smith, Washington , 1). (\: Have just returned from a trip in the camp area, and for over 3 miles on the road I traveled every farmer had vacated and, in most cases, bought elsewhere. I have been forced to vacate my several farms on a few days’ notice, bought elsewhere, erected buildings, and made improvements. Sold stock at a great sacrifice. Lost a number of thorough-bred Jerseys and other stock due to exposure on account of lack of shelter. My former home has been irreparably damaged. If camp is abandoned it will mean great loss to thousands that have been forced to do as I have. Trust that you will he successful in securing the camp for Columbus. A. O. Blackmar. Hon. Hoke Smith, Washington, D. C. Columbus, Ga., January 8, 1919. Dear Sir : I note with very great regret the fact that the Senate committee has decided to abandon the camp at Columbus. This will be a great disappoint¬ ment to our citizens and farmers, a great many of whom have moved away and bought homes elsewhere and a majority of those who have not moved have lost practically all their labor. It will not only he a great loss to the Government both in money and mate¬ rial used here but will lose the opportunity of developing one of the finest fort reservations, which will most likely be badly needed in after years. I trust that you will use every effort possible to have the great project car¬ ried out as planned and will certainly appreciate your efforts on behalf of Camp Benning, which will be of great benefit to this whole southwestern section and to Georgia. Again thanking you, I am, Yours, very truly, W. E. Cody. The Chairman. Now, what other testimony have you, Senator Smith ? Senator Smith of Georgia. I have tried, Mr. Chairman, to put this matter in a shape where I can give it to you very rapidly and very briefly this morning. I have had some of it put into writing. First I want to call your attention to just a few of a number of telegrams I have received from Columbus of this character: As a property owner in Chattahoochee County, camp area, want to be re¬ corded as favoring completion of Camp Benning. Did not favor project at its inception, but since condemnation proceedings have caused loss of all our labor and property owners have traded elsewhere, now desire project completed and quick settlement for lands. W. R. Martin. Here is another telegram: Tenants all left under orders United States Government under circum¬ stances feel justified in insisting on Government paying for land as agreed. Majority land owners will make same contentions if agreement not complied with. W. E. Cody. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 187 Here is another telegram: Have made thorough canvass of camp area located Muskogee County, and find 95 per cent of labor moved out area. Large per cent of property owners moved off. S. A. Ginn. Senator Kirby. Do you know whether they moved off because the land was unfit for farming? Senator Smith of Georgia. No: they have just moved off on ac¬ count of the notices. Senator, it is beautiful land. It is unfit for farming now, on account of the use already made of it by the Gov¬ ernment. Senator Kirby. I was simply facetious. Senator Smith of Georgia. Well, it is such a serious matter that I did not recognize the joke. Here is another very important telegram. Have just returned from a trip in the camp area and for over 3 miles on the road I traveled every farmer had vacated and in most cases bought elsewhere. I have been forced to vacate my several farms on a few days’ notice; bought elsewhere, and erected buildings, made improvements, sold stock at a large sac¬ rifice, lost a number of thoroughbred Jerseys and other stock through exposure on account of lack of shelter. My former home has been irreparably damaged. If camp is abandoned it will mean great loss to thousands that have been forced to do as I have. Trust that you will be successful in securing the camp. And there are a number of others that I will not stop to read along the same line. The Chairman. They have been ordered to be inserted in the record. Mr. Minter. I should like to know whom that last telegram is from. Most of these parties live in Columbus that the Senator has read so far. Senator Smith of Georgia. But Columbus really runs Muskogee County. The bulk of Muskogee County is owned in Columbus— the bulk of the farm land. The name of the party signing this tele¬ gram is A. O. Blackmar. Senator New. They are what we call telephone farmers. Senator Smith of Georgia. No, sir; they have their automobiles, and go out and look after their farms. Senator New. That is what I mean—automobile farmers. Senator Smith of Georgia. Their whole property, in a number of instances, is in this area. They depend on the product of these farms for a living, and while they have their homes in Columbus and edu¬ cate their children there, they go out every day in their little auto¬ mobiles, 12 miles; they can run out in half an hour. Mr. Chairman, I only present this to go far enough to show to the committee not what they want at Columbus, because I do not ask for action on the basis of what they want there, but the status of the Government with reference to this matter. The procedure having been instituted for the property, and the property having been taken over by the Government, my view of the law is that title vests in the Government and that the only remaining question is the decree and the fixing of the value, and at the proper time I shall submit to the committee authorities to that effect. I think that is the recognized rule of the text writers and the decisions that where the procedure of 188 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. condemnation is for the title and authorizes the immediate taking, leaving only the question of value, then the privilege does not exist for dismissing the condemnation procedure but you must pay for the land. The Chairman. In my State title does not pass until an award has been made and the money paid into the court. Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes; but we contend under this pro¬ cedure and this act that the Government had the right to take title, and at once, under this special war act. Senator Kirby. You are just objecting, as I understand, to any protest against proceeding with the building by any of these home people. You are explaining that, and you are also insisting that this has gone so far that it would be to the Government’s best interest to complete it rather than to turn it loose and pay whatever damages may have resulted? Senator Smith of Georgia. That is my view. I have looked into it in large part on account of my interest in Columbus. I shall finally vote, not in the interest of Columbus, further than as a mat¬ ter of justice to them, but in view of what I conceive to be the inter¬ est of the Government, and my contention is that, so far as acquir¬ ing this land is concerned, you have gone so far that you have taken it unless you compromise with the property holders and they agree to take it back; that you have proceeded under the act that author¬ ized you to take title at once, under this war statute that we passed through the Senate, and that the legal effect of what you have done has left simply the question of assessing the value of the land, unless the parties voluntarily recede. Senator Kirby. We can discuss that later. I was simply asking the question for information. Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes. Mr. Chairman, I want to put in evidence a statement showing that land, containing 28,000 acres, or more than one-fourth of what is necessary, has passed to the stage of agreement between the landowners and the Government upon the price, and I shall furnish you, without stopping to read it, a list of those lands and the prices agreed upon. Senator New. Twenty-eight thousand, or more than one-fourth of what is necessary? Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes; of what is necessary. Senator Kirby. I understood this was a tract of 150,000 acres. Senator New. Oh, no. Senator Smith of Georgia. It is 115,000 acres. But I am going to submit to the committee that, of the 28,0,00 acres, 17,000 acres of it lies right up close to Columbus, and is not essential. Senator New. Is that 17,000 acres of the 115,000 acres? Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes; of the 115,000 acres; and it is very much the most expensive land. Senator New. So, with the elimination of that- Senator Smith of Georgia. It eliminates about $1,000,000. Senator New. And reduces the area to 98,000 acres? Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes; and eliminated about a million dollars from the cost of the land. (The paper referred to is here printed in full, as follows:) LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS 189 Land on ivhich prices have been agreed and signed options given. Acres. Price. Acres. Price. Acres. Price. Acres. Price. 2 $400.00 42 $3,750.00 110 $1,650.00 192* $2,887.50 1,413 17,662.50 176 7.700.00 101* 3,000.00 170 2,125.00 2021 3,037.50 202* 12.150.00 ion 2,025.00 50 1,000.00 218 3,052.00 lOl* 1,600.00 25 4,500.00 50 750.00 50 3,250.00 40 700.00 116* 6,190.25 105 1,575.00 158* 3.165.00 80 6,400.00 1 350.00 1,064 32.148.25 185 3,237.50 462 14,000.00 101* 2,025.00 2 20.00 1011 1,518.75 100 7,000.00 101* 2,025.00 229* 2,292.50 405 9,000.00 70 4,900.00 94 2,500.00 101* 5,000.00 100 2,000.00 597* 14.937.50 50 1,000.00 307* 6.150.00 708 15,000.00 810 16,200.00 202* 2,531.25 50 500.00 1,216* 37,710.00 202* 4,050.00 231 6.930.00 12* 400.00 3035 12,220.00 202* 4,050.00 1,822* 25,818.75 405 5,062.50 50 1,800.00 177* 11,070.00 1 350.00 109 3,700.00 98f 1,637.62 14 7,500.00 305 4,000.00 100 6,000.00 48 3,000.00 777* 15,500.00 5 1,500.00 20 1,500.00 4 2,000.00 1.148| 30,000.00 1 450.00 148.87 2,500.00 4 2.500.00 456* 15,968.75 55 1,100.00 127 2,540.00 151i 8,062.50 121* 3,637.50 1,620 36,000.00 60 3,000.00 106 2.340.00 33 825.00 1,622* 16,225.00 325 24,375.00 50 1,250.00 174 8,700.00 105* 2,110.00 202* 2,531.25 100 5,000.00 lOl* 1.015.00 395* 13,842.50 455 3,640.00 127* 19,625.00 6 650.00 56 1,275.00 103* 4,140.00 1011 1,500.00 100 1,200.00 202* 6,000.00 30 1,000.00 1011 2,750.00 32 1,600.00 20 250.00 1,900 40,000.00 310 31,000.00 202* 8.100.00 7 750.00 1225 7,365.00 3 400.00 297 21,000.00 28,566.94 767,392.87 127.5 9,500.00 768 10,742.00 73 5,475.00 101* 2,025.00 47* 803.25 52 4,000.00 Date. Name. Number Lot No. District. Price. Price acies. per acre. Nov. 27,1918 Do . B. Rothschild. 405 104, 153. 9 $4,000.00 2,531.25 7,593.75 $9.90 Wm. Becker. 202* 607* 149'.. 9 12.50 Do . B. W. Bussey.«.. 181, 204, half of 205, half of 180. 33 12.50 Do . . .. .do. 1,822* 207,210,211,238, 239 , 240. 33 18,225.00 15.00 Do. J. S. Psalmonds. 1,620 106,117,141,108, 107, 139, 140, halfofll6,118. 6 36,000.00 22.22 2 Do Mrs. Sarah Ritch. 1,622* Part 64. 65, 223, 249, 208, 209, 232, 240, 250. 6 16,225.00 10.00 20.00 Do E. C. Rogers. 105* 50 53. 9 2,110.00 3,250.00 5,475.00 700.00 Do E. S. Bray. Half of 12. 9 65.00 Do T. W. Jones. 73 Part 110. C. R. 75.00 Do J. Flint. 7 17.50 Do George Evans. 101* 47* 7 1,600.00 15.76 Do Betty Lewis. 7 803.25 17.00 Do Harrison Kitchen. 3 7 400.00 133.33 Do Wm. H. Becker . 405 115, 136. 9 5,062.50 15,000.00 12.50 Do. J. R. Christian and Mrs. 447* 49, 36, 214, 202,' 7,6 21.20 Christian. 160* 203, 67, part 47. 43. 75 Dec. 11,1918 T)n 0. D. Edge. 176 Parts 12, 13. C. R. 7,700.00 1,650.00 Mrs. E. C. McCord. 110 1, 49..... 7,9 15.00 Do A. J. Matthews estate. 101* 55 15. 9 2,025.00 1,100.00 20.00 Do Henry Pierce. 14. 9 20.00 Do C J. Edge. 42 139. C. R. 3,750.00 6,000.00 2,616.00 2,292.50 89.28 Do J. M. Talbot. 100 129, 130. C. R. 60.00 Do T. E Berry. 218 114 ,111 . 9 12.00 Do Dr. W A. Scott. 229:* 768 170, 151, 171 . 9 10.00 Do C. C Layfield . 51/ 52/ 53, 62, part 63. 7 10,742.00 14.00 12.00 Do Tom .Tones. 100 Half of 110 . 9 1,200.00 Do Wilkes Stanton . 56 153 . 7 1,275.00 22.80 Do . Jos. M. Tomblin . 109 16,17,48, part 3. . 167,168,185,186, 9,7 3,300.00 30.28 Dec. 12,1918 Mrs. L. R. Black, now Mrs. 1,413 9 17,677. 75 12.50 J. F. Adams. 199, 200, 217. Do . A P Phelts . 94 140, 14, 19 . C. R.,9 / 1,250.00 \ 1,250.00 25.00 28.40 Dec. 19,1918 Dr> \Trs T)ivie Fuller 100 123, 124 . C. R. 7,000.00 70.00 E C Fuller 70 106'. . C. R. 4,900.00 70.00 Do John Blackmar . 231 142,143, 144, 143, 9 6,930.00 30.00 140, 147. Do . A. 0. Blackmar . 20 147 . 9 250.00 12.50 190 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Land on which prices have been agreed and signed options given— Continued. Pate. Name. Number acres. Lot No. District. Price. Price per acre. Pec. 19,1918 A. 0. Blackmar. 200 6, 123, 125, 126... 7 ,16,000. 00 130.00 Po . .do. 7 149. 9 750.00 107.00 Po.. _do. 297 147, 15, 16, 17.... C. R., 9 21,000.00 70.70 Po H H Williams. 30 168. • 7 1,000.00 33.33 Po Julia T,ove 1 168. 7 450.00 450.00 Po James Chaney. 1 168. 7 350.00 350.00 Po John Clark . 50 154. 7 1,800.00 30. 60 Po Pelia Jones. 5 106. C. R. 1,500.00 300. Oil Po Hattie Jones. 0 16. C. R. 850.00 141.67 Po S P Wynn estate. 50 108. 9 500.00 10.00 Po ... J Robert Duncan. 127* 121, 122, 127, 128. C. R. 9, 500.00 74.50 Po W E Colwell. 106 16, 17. 9 2,385.00 22.50 Po Jennie Bryant. m 87. 9 400.00 32.00 46 pa.rnels 12,558J 248,369.00 Senator Smith of Georgia. Now, Mr. Chairman, I will ask Col. Wyllie and Col. Whelen, who were designated by Gen. Marsh to present the view of the General Staff and War College, to put in writing a statement as to the necessity for this kind of school. Senator Kirby. Are they present? Senator Smith of Georgia. They are present; yes, sir. Senator Kirby. Why not let them do it? Senator Smith of Georgia. I just thought it would be so much briefer. I am simply trying to save the time of the committee. They are present and I shall be glad to have you ask them anything that you desire in addition to the statement. The statement is as follows: NECESSITY FOR A SMALL-ARMS SCHOOL. The education and training of an Army officer may be divided into three parts—basic, tactical, and technical. The basic training is obtained at the United States Military Academy, various colleges, and at garrison schools during the first few years of an officer’s service. The tactical training is obtained in garrison schools and in experience with troops. Formerly the technical training was also so obtained, but in recent years this has not been possible. The tendency of modern war is to become more and more technical, making necessary a much higher order of technical training for officers to fit them to instruct their troops. Every arm and branch of the Army now recognizes the necessity for a technical training school. Thus we have an Engineer School, a Signal School, a Medical School, a School of Fire for Field Artillery, various flying fields, and a Small-Arms School. The Small-Arms School is necessary for the technical training of officers of Infantry (including machine-gun officers) and Cavalry, and for certain officers of Artillery and Engineers. The Small-Arms School is the only technical training school for two-thirds of the Army—the Infantry and Cavalry. The necessity for uniform and thorough training of this nature was demonstrated by the lessons of the War with Spain, and the Britisli-Boer War, and still further by the Russo-Japanese War. As a result there was organized in the United States Army in 1906 a School of Musketry at Monterey, Cal. This school later developed into the School of Fire, comprising the School of Fire for Field Artillery, the Infantry School of Arms, and the Machine-Gun School. This school was functioning at Fort Sill at the beginning of the war of 1917. These schools were very limited in their scope. They were small and taught only a few selected officers. Thus, while they served to keep the science and technique alive and to a certain extent progressive, yet they had a rather small influence on the efficiency of the troops. At the start of the war of 1917 we were obliged to rely for subaltern officers' almost entirely upon the product of officers’ training camps, the officers grad¬ uating therefrom after only three months’ instruction, and this basic instruc¬ tion with practically no technical instruction. It very shortly became apparent LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 191 that the graduates of these three-month schools were not able to train their men* to a state of efficiency. The proportion of senior Regular Army officers with organizations (3 per 100 officers) was not enough to carry on officer train¬ ing while engaged also in organization training. As a consequence the first National Guard and National Army divisions sent to France) required from three to five months’ training, mostly technical, after arriving there, before they could be placed in the line. The lack of technical training of these troops, par¬ ticularly in marksmanship and musketry, was the subject of many cablegrams from Gen. Pershing. As a result, there was organized a Small Arms Firing School at Camp Perry, Ohio, a Machine Gun Training Center at Camp Hancock, and the scope of the Infantry School of Arms at Fort Sill was enlarged. During the early part of 1918 about one-fifth of the graduates of officers’ train¬ ing schools were sent to one or another of these schools for one month’s training in addition to their three months at the various officers’ training schools. Even these schools proved inadequate for the efficient training of subaltern officers, and when, in July, 1918, it was determined to raise a large number of additional divisions it was felt that it was absolutely necessary to give the officers of these new divisions at least six months’ training before joining their organizations, three months of this to be basic and three months technical. Accordingly steps were taken to combine the Infantry School of Arms, the Small Arms Firing School, and the Machine Gun Training Center into one central school to be located at Columbus, Ga. The product of this school was to be 4,000 officers per month. This school would have started to function about December 15, 1918, had not the armistice been signed. The lessons of the war of 1917 show the greatly increased importance of technical training of troops. As has been stated, the tendency of modern war is to become more and more technical. In order that this technical training shall be efficient and uniform enough to function correctly in any organization of the Army, it must be conducted for instructors (officers) at one central school. Moreover, as it necessitates a large amount of firing of a character simulating battle firing, it requires a special locality selected for its safety factor. Thus in training officers to use with effect the fire power of their troops it is neces¬ sary to give them facilities for using this power in at least five fire problems in which the officer shall command a fire unit (platoon). If we have 500 officers to train, this means 2,500 problems. To complete these problems in a reason¬ able time, it is necessary to hold a large number at once; hence a very large tract of land is necessary. It has been demonstrated beyond doubt that it requires at least four weeks to train an officer to efficiency as an instructor in marksmanship, four weeks as an instructor in musketry, and four more weeks for trench mortar, 37-millimeter gun, and grenades, making three months at least necessary for the technical training of the Infantry officer. The machine-gun officer requires at least this much time for his technical training. While we were stiil at war, our needs for the technical training of officers of units armed with the rifle were provided for by the establishment of the In¬ fantry School of Arms at Columbus, Ga., based on a student body of 12,750 offi¬ cers. This large reservoir of officers from which there was to be a steady flow of 4,000 per month, was provided for by the establishment of a special officers’ training camp at Camp Fremont, Cal. Immediately upon acceptance of the armistice this training camp was abolished along with all the others, and the student body of the Infantry School of Arms was reduced to a peace-time basis of 2,000 officers, noncommissioned officers, and selected privates. At the snme time, steps were taken to further consolidate the training of officers and pros¬ pective officers by combining with the two schools already at Columbus the Tank School from Camp Polk and the Machine Gun School from Camp Hancock. This consolidation made it necessary to retain the total land area as planned, or nearly all of it. The cost of construction was not materially reduced because the character of the buildings was changed from temporary war-time construc¬ tion to a type more suited to peace-time conditions and more durable in char¬ acter. It is axiomatic that every officer and noncommissioned officer in whom is vested the proper training of the other members of his command must, himself, be properlv trained, and especially is this true of the weapons with which he fights The student body at the school at Columbus has been fixed at 2,000 as being a number adapted to peace-time needs, regardless of the size of our Army, and capable of rapid expansion to meet any emergency. Our late ex¬ perience taught us to turn to the well trained noncommissioned officer as our 192 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. first reliance for officer material. The smaller onr peace-time Army the greater the importance of training such material. The proportion of officers and noncommissioned officers in this student body of 2,000 would be determined by the particular needs of the Army at the time, and these needs would be largely indicated by the size of the Army. For the present, and for two or three years, these students would be largely lieutenants, after which the larger portion would be noncommissioned officers and selected privates. Provision has also been made, at certain periods of the year, for instructing in marksmanship the offi¬ cers of the National Guard of the several States, groups of civilians who are identified with the rifle clubs of the country and specially selected men from the colleges and universities which have military training as a part of their curriculum. The necessity for these schools in the technical training of the various arms of the service has been recognized for many years, by the establishment of the School of Fire for Field Artillery at Fort Sill, the Coast Artillery School at Fortress Monroe, and the Engineer School at Washington Barracks. This school at Columbus is the one and only school of arms for the Infantry and Cav¬ alry arms of the service, which in any army must form the larger part of the whole. The War Department considers a small arms school of the size and scope set forth above was absolutely necessary for the efficiency of the Army. Robt. E. Wyllie, Colonel, General Staff. Townsend Whelen, Lieutenant Colonel, General Staff. Senator Kirby. The only thing I would like to ask these gentle¬ men is, Where are you going to get your selection of the men; who selects the men for entering the school ? Senator Smith of Georgia. I will ask Col. Whelen to take the stand. STATEMENT OF LIEUT. COL. TOWNSEND WHELEN, GENERAL STAFF, WASHINGTON, D. C. Senator Kirby. Colonel, how is it contemplated in your scheme that these students who are to enter this camp, if it is established, will be selected ? Is it done by the Army or some other agency ? Col. Whelen. It will be done by the Army. We think it highly desirable that there shall be in every company of Infantry and in every troop of Cavalry at least one officer always present who shall be a graduate of this school. Senator Kirby. How many officers did we train in this last war? Col. Whelen. Technically, do you mean? Senator Kirby. Commissioned officers belonging to the fighting line? Senator New. The line officers. Senator Kirby. Yes; line officers. Col. Whelen. They gave all of the line officers who had not been in the Regular Army previous to the war a three months’ basic training at the officers’ camp of instruction. Senator Kirby. I understapd that, but how many altogether were trained and commissioned as officers of the fighting force ? Col. Whelen. I have no idea. Senator Kirby. You do not know about that? Col. Whelen. No; but I can get those figures for you. Senator Kirby. It is immaterial. There were enough, however, for officering an Army of 5,000,000 men, were there not? Col. Whelen. No, sir; enough for officering an Army of about 3,000,000 men. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 193 Senator Kirby. You had officers for the others, had you not, who either had trained or were in course of training ? Col. Whelen. There was a real shortage of officers in November of last year. Senator Kirby. Of last year ? Col. W Helen. We had in training by December enough officers to make up that shortage. Senator Kirby. Now, if the war is ended, the General Staff would not contemplate keeping more than a standing Army of 500,000, would it ? Col. Whelen. The General Staff contemplates only keeping those officers that are necessary. Senator Kirby. I am not talking about officers; I am talking about Army. Senator New. An Army of 500,000 men. Col. Whelen. I have not heard anybody make an estimate of an Army of over 500,000. Senator Kirby. If those you have already trained are sufficient to take care of 3,000,000 men, it would seem that we might get along with the old system, might we not, and leave off some of these camps! Col. Whelen. A great many of these young officers- Senator Kirby. Excuse me. Let it be understood that I think the people of Georgia ought to be paid for their land and paid for dam¬ ages, and for the trouble they have been put to by the Government; there is no question about that. The only thing I am interested in is whether the Government ought to be required, at this time of enormous expenditure, to establish an ideal school that would be necessary probably under other conditions when the expenses have already been so great and when the war is ended and the Army is reduced from 5,000,000 men to at most 500,000 men. That is the only point I am trying to get at. Col. Whelen. Answering your question, while we have now plenty of officers that we can bring into the Regular Army and fill the Reg¬ ular Army up to whatever size Congress decides on, yet it is a fact that the great majority of these officers have not been trained to a point where we think it is desirable that officers of the Regular Army shall be trained. Their training has not been completed, and it will be necessary to complete that training. In addition to that, we will have to train those officers who come in from time to time to keep us up to the highest standard. Senator New. When you talk about training officers enough to handle an army of 3,000,000 men or more, you are speaking now of officers who were trained for temporary use ? Col. Whelen. Exactly. Senator New. For emergency use, and not officers who would con¬ stitute the Regular Army of the United States in time to come? Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. Senator New. Now, this school, as I understand it, is for perma¬ nent use to train the officers and give a post graduate course to offi¬ cers who are intended to be permanently in the Army of the United States ? Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. 99137—19-13 194 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Kirby. Colonel, do you think it is necessary to train a man to a finer edge for a permanent officer in peace time than a man who has actually gone into the fighting and done the fighting in war? Now, what is the necessity for that? What I am trying to get at—and I do not want to seem contentious about it—is this: We have spent all this money and the war is over. Now, here is a great big problem to build a $10,000,000 school with West Point proceed¬ ing regularly, and with Annapolis going ahead, and with officers already enough trained to fight with an army of 5,000,000. Now, why can not we dispense with this school right now ? In other words, what is the necessity for training officers for the Eegular Army in peace time so much better than those who have been fighting and have been trained? What is the necessity that would require that expenditure of money? Col. Whelen. Those officers have not been trained well in war time. They have been trained under what we call in the Army the “ get-rich-quick ” method. They have not been trained to fight. The Army is not satisfied with their training. Their lack of training has cost many, many lives in this war. It is not right that we should send our sons into war led by §uch men at all—not that the men are not all right themselves, but they lack training. If it had not been for this emergency we should never have thought of doing it. If we had given the matter clear thought and had seen this thing coming on we would have trained our officers up to the very highest degree of efficiency. Senator Kirby. Your insistence, then, is, as a professional soldier and as an officer, that every man who commands men should be trained to the very highest possible degree of efficiency ? Col. Whelen. Yes, sir. Senator Kirby. When the circumstances permit? Col. Whelen. Absolutely. I do not think this committee ought to stand for anything else but that our Eegular Army has got to be trained up to the very highest point possible. Senator Smith of Georgia. In other words, you feel that we have suffered from neglect as to this kind of training in the past, during this present war? Col. Whelen. We have; decidedly. We could not perceive these things. We could not possibly perceive a war of this size, or that the war would be carried on as technically as it has been. Senator Kirby. It is a new system of modern warfare ? Col. Whelen. Yes, sir; it is a new system of modern warfare. Senator Smith of Georgia. And you want your commissioned offi¬ cers and noncommissioned officers in the Army, of whatever size, to be trained to the highest degree of efficiency ? Col. Whelen. They must be modern officers; yes, sir. Senator Smith of Georgia. And you are obliged to have a camp of this kind to do it in ? Col. Whelen. Yes, sir; from the standpoint of this particular camp. The strength of our Army has always laid in the fact that we could make more hits for the ammunition expended than any other army. . That is the reason it has been successful. It requires technical training to do that—more technical than ever before/ We used to give this technical training, but it is necessary that this technical training be of a much higher character now and to have it LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 195 uniform in order than all our men can be trained by the same system. It is much cheaper to have this technical training given at one school than to make a plant and provide instructors and material for it at all of our Army posts. It will be decided, undoubtedly—because it is the actual fact—that this school is necessary; that we will have to have this school at one place or another. The training and instruc¬ tion branch of the General Staff, which I represent, does not wish to enter into a discussion at all as to the necessity for putting this school at Columbus. Senator Kirby. I understand that. Col. Whelen. They are simply entering into a discussion upon the necessity of the school itself. As a matter of fact, the whole sys¬ tem of training schools for all branches of the Army has been worked out and everything that we have asked for is necessary. If we were to put this school at any other location, then we would be throwing out something else which is just as necessary. For instance, it has been suggested to put this camp at a number of places which are already taken by the Artillery. The Artillery needs those places be¬ cause the technique of their arm of the service has also increased, and they have to have certain places where the Artillery can fire ad libitum and where that fire can be determined by aerial observation, and those places are few and far between. Senator Sutherland. Have England, France, and Germany, as far as you know, camp schools as large as this, comprising 115,000 acres, devoted to such purpose? Col. Whelen. They must have tracts that they can use for this purpose. I do not think they would have entered into this war with¬ out such places. Senator Sutherland. Have they, as an actual fact, and did they before this war, maintain a large standing army with any such school as this? Col. Whelen. I do not believe England has had in England itself. I do not believe it is possible to get such a tract of ground in Eng¬ land to-day. Senator Sutherland. And how about France, that maintained a much larger army than England? Col. Whelen. France, so skilled in artillery during this war, as it has shown itself to have been, must have had such a place. Senator Sutherland. This is for small arms. Did they have as large a tract as this, or anything approximating it, devoted to such purpose ? Col. Whelen. I do not think she could have had, because France’s small-arm training is woefully weak. Senator Sutherland. Do you know what Germany did in that particular ? Col. Whelen. Germany has undoubtedly done so- Senator Sutherland. But do you know that she has a school ap¬ proximating this school and requiring as large an area as this de¬ voted to this purpose? Col. Whelen. No, sir; I do not know that, but the state of her training shows that she undoubtedly must have had. Senator Sutherland. But why make a deduction when the facts are obtainable? We do not want to guess at it, as to whether she has or not. 196 LAND LOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Whelen. It is merely a deduction based upon the results that they have obtained with their army. Senator Sutherland. They may have gotten the results in another way. Sometimes results are obtained in different ways. (Col. Whelen was thereupon excused.) The Chairman. Is that all that you have to present, Senator Smith ? Senator Smith of Georgia. No, Mr. Chairman. I desire to submit some more written matter. I desire to present to you from Col. Eames a statement with reference to the selection of this place. It is as follows: The Chairman. I think Col. Eames covered that in his oral tes¬ timony. Senator Smith of Georgia. Part of it he did and part of it he did not. He continues as follows: REQUIREMENTS OF A SITE FOR THE INFANTRY SCHOOL OF ARMS. Climate .—The climate must be such as to permit open-air training the year around. This is necessary on account of the length of the course and the suc¬ cession of courses necessary for an economical use of the plant. To lose a course during the winter months means the idleness of an expensive plant for at least one-fourth of the time. There should be an absence of blizzards, hot winds, dust storms, glare, high winds, excessive heat, and excessive cold. The rainfall should not be excessive, the admissible amount depending largely upon the soil. Rains do not stop work unless the ground becomes miry or water-soaked. The nights must be reasonably cool in summer because of the classroom work and study periods that are scheduled after dark. Health .—The locality should be free from endemic diseases, mosquitoes, and other conditions injuriously affecting the health of the troops or difficult or expensive of correction. Soil .—The soil should be light and porous, sandy enough to avoid mud and mire in rainy weather, but firm enough to stand well in trenches to avoid the expense of revetting. Cost .—The cost of the land should not exceed an average of about $20 per acre, including improvements except at the cantonment site proper where the *cost may be higher. Urba.n requirements .—The post should be near enough to a city of at least 25,000 to afford the necessary amusements and relaxation to men and officers as well as to afford a mart in which may be bought those necessaries for per¬ sonal and community existence. The larger the city the better from a psycho¬ logical points of view, but from a material point of view it is necessary only that it be large enough for the purposes outlined. The post should not be more than about 8 miles from the city in order to avoid expense in transportation of persons and materials and to avoid loss of time in transit. Transportation. —There should be railroads upon the boundaries and through the reservation in order that the expense of truck transportation may be lessened by the use of shuttle trains in distributing students through the area. There should also be enough good roads suitably disposed to facilitate distribution of students by truck and these roads should be firm enough to resist ordinary trucking and inexpensive of repair and reconstruction. Topography. —The topography of the post site proper should be such as to avoid expensive grading of building sites and roads, but diversified enough to avoid a monotonous aspect. It should be well drained and be adjacent to a suitable site for a target range. (About 5 square miles.) The requirements of the target range are that it should be level and about 2 miles long at the firing line by | of a mile in depth in the direction of fire. The direction of fire should not be within 60° of east nor 90° of west, this direction of fire being a very particular point. It should be toward the LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 197 north if that direction does not result in making unfavorable the constant winds. Winds should blow from one side rather than in the plane of tire. The soil here is important if the climate is rainy, as the firing lines should be usable immediately after the heaviest rains. Ground water should not exist at less than 5 feet in order that the necessary pits may be dug without excessive ex¬ pense for draining. The field firing range should be similar to any good maneuver ground. Diversified with hills, valleys, meadows, villages, streams, roads, etc. Water .—There should be available on or very near to the building site a supply of not less than 1,000,000 gallons of clear, potable water that may be piped to the site without any unusual cost for piping, treatment or pumping. Throughout the firing area there should be a number of streams of potable water for use during the day. Farm lands .—Near the post there should be available an area suitable for truck farms on which the fresh vegetables used by the troops may be grown and pasturage sufficient for the milk herds attached to the post should be available near water and shade. Geographic location .—In order to avoid expense of transportation of students and of supplies, the school should not be located in the extreme East or West. In order not to lose valuable time in the winter months, it should not be located in the far north. Located in the center of the United States as nearly as may be in view of the other requirements, it should be on at least two railroads with adequate service and schedules, with railroad yards for storing equipment pending a movement of troops, and so located as to avoid the use of Pullman equipment as far as possible. There should be good markets, refrigeration plants, and like necessities from the viewpoint of subsistence and the general location should be fixed with due regard to the distance from the arsenals and munition factories from which come the bulk of the supplies for the school. The post proper should not be near, but at the target range, and should be central with relation to the area used for field firing order to minimize the amount of transportation necessary to distribute the classes of their work. Of all the places examined in the “center of the United States,” none ap¬ proached Columbus in the number of requirements met by the site. Xow, here is a statement from Col. Eames giving the various other camps, their acreage, and the cost at each of those camps. He refers to the other camps and the other cantonments, with an ex¬ planation of their size and what it would cost the Government to acquire the necessary land put up buildings at any one of these other places: Statistics regarding cantonments. Cantonment. Capacity (persons). Area of camp (acres). Total area (acres). Cost to buy. Camp Custer, Battle Creek, Mich.'.. 35.458 5,996 9,139 S7,935,000 3,105,000 Camp Devens, Aver, Mass . 36.832 10,607 6,848 5,209 Camp Dix, Wrightstown N. J. 42. 806 4,502 3,354 10; 270;000 20,930,000 (') 10,925,000 28,7.50,000 6,210,000 5,175,000 Camp Dodge, Des Moines, Iowa. 42,227 Camp Fnnst.nn, Fnrt Rilpv } Kans . 42,806 19,447 11,303 Camp Gordon, Atlanta, Ga. 4L 162 4, 672 Camp Grant., Rook ford, Til . 42,619 L 600 5,665 Camp .Taokson, Columbia, R. C . 44^ 009 49. 721 2.737 12,804 Camp Dee, Petersburg, Va. . 5,542 9,240 Camp Tyfiwis, American T.a.kp, Wash . 46.232 70,000 0) 4,140,00 4.600,000 li; 500,000 11, 500,000 2,300,000 12,075,000 Camp Meadp Admiral Md . 42.830 9; 349 14,946 11,802 Camp Pike, kittle Rook, Ark . 43, 843 2.796 Camp Sherman, Chillionthe Ohio . 39.904 2 , 002 2,660 Camp Taylor, Unnisville, KV . 45.424 23, 621 Camp Travis, San Antonio Tex 42', 809 43, 567 5,730 18.290 Camp Upton, Yaphailk L T . 4,000 15; 198 1 Owned. 198 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Statistics regarding camps. Persons. Acres. Beauregard, Alexandria, La. 29,121 21,600 Bowie, Fort Worth, Tex. 41, S79 2,186 Cody, Deming, N Mex. 44,959 46,183 30,000 48,305 45,099 32,066 44,899 45,074 57, 748 41,693 13,757 67,713 7,203 6,000 13,811 12,721 9,560 Doniphan, Fort Sill, Okla. Fremont, Palo Alto, Cal. Greene, Charlotte, N. C . Hancock, Augusta, Ga. Kearney, Linda Vista, Cal. Logan, Houston, Tex. McArthur, Waco, Tex. 10,669 McClellan, Anniston, Ala. i$;000 13,659 Sevier, Greenville, S! C. Shelby, Hattiesburg, Miss. 36,010 12; 960 10,600 Sheridan. Montgomery, Ala . 41,593 Wadsworth, Spartanburg, S. C. 56; 249 43,011 16,553 21,480 Wheeler, Macon, Ga. Note.— Of the 16 cantonments but 2 are owned by the Government, the remaining 14 being rented. The estimated cost of buying these 14 sites (100,000 acres) is based on the cost for the relatively small sites now rented. The buildings on these sites must be painted to make them last at all and must be altered in many cases to make them fit the needs of the school. It is roughly estimated that $1,000,000 will be needed for these purposes. Another $1,000,000 will be needed to build the target range and about $2,000,000 will be needed for building the officers’ quarters and other buildings that can not be obtained by alteration. If no quarters are built there will be an annual charge of about $400,000 for commutation of quarters and the work of the school will be seriously affected. Four million dollars must therefore be spent on any can¬ tonment used in addition to the cost of the land. Senator Sutherland. Which two are owned, Senator? Senator Kirby. Camp Pike is one that the Little Rock people gave them, containing 3,000 acres of land, and built houses on it which cost over $350,000 of good money for their erection, and 10,000 acres of new ground was given them free during the war. Senator Smith of Georgia. Camp Lewis is another. I do not know which the other is; I suppose it is Camp Pike. Senator Kirby. There is another camp. Senator Smith, of Georgia. Yes; Camp Funston; that is three. Senator Sutherland. Have you any record showing the cost of this improvement there right down to bedrock at Columbus, count¬ ing the salvage and everything? Senator Smith of Georgia. They have already spent a million and a half dollars on the plant. Senator Kirby. The Assistant Secretary of War, Mr. Crowell, gave all those figures, I understand. Senator Smith of Georgia. To be exact, it was $1,570,000. I had gotten the impression that it was $1,500,000. Now, in my opinion, you can reduce the cost of the land a million dollars by taking off this land just by Columbus, and I believe the citizens of Columbus would appoint a committee to get you relieved from any liability to those people for their land by reason of your procedure to take it, and that they will undertake to get that off your hands without any cost whatever. Senator Kirby. That will leave about $9,000,000. Senator Smith of Georgia. It will be about $2,000,000 for the land. I have no question myself that with $4,000,000—by using the material that there is in the camps in the area around Columbus, and the mate¬ rial you have bought that you are not going to use at Camp Gordon, at Camp Hancock, and at the camp at Montgomery—you can take that material that is lying there unused and with $4,0004)00 complete this enterprise. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 199 Senator Sutherland. They must have made a survey of these facts, and they possibly have the actual figures and estimates made by their engineers. Senator Smith of Georgia. These estimates were made last Sep¬ tember and October, when labor was at the top notch; when there was the heaviest strain, and the highest pay going out for labor; when labor was over 100 per cent above the normal price. That situa¬ tion has largely changed and is changing rapidly, and the labor dis¬ charged from the Army in that section can be found that would be glad to do this work at 50 per cent less than it would have cost last September. I am giving you, of course, the figures from my own study of conditions. Of course, I am only throwing out a suggestion; I do not mean this as conclusive. Senator Sutherland. I would like to ask you whether some of the officers here have not tabulated a statement of estimates as to the cost of this project based upon their survey of the conditions down there, as well as the material available? Senator Smith of Georgia. There has been no accurate survey as to the probable cost of labor since the war has been over, under a changed condition. The survey of the cost of labor was made last summer. What the labor will cost now has not been figured out by the department. Senator New. I feel very much as does Senator Sutherland. I want to get this matter with respect to cost entirely straight in my mind. In the earlier hearings here I think it was Col. Eames, and if not some of the other witnesses, who spoke of $14,000,000. Somehow or other I got that in my mind. Senator Smith of Georgia. Those were the original figures esti¬ mated last summer. That included all the land and included the construction and the purchase of new material. Senator New. Yes. Now, yesterday or day before yesterday, in testifying here Col. Mumma said, “ Give us $6,000,000 and we will complete this whole business.” Now, what I want to do is to get in my mind the basis for this change from the $14,000,000 to the $6,000,000 total as the expense of the enterprise? Senator Smith of Georgia. I would like to make a suggestion from my own observations as to how it can be done. Senator Sutherland. Your observation may be just as accurate as theirs, but the committee should not be bound by observations. Senator Smith of Georgia. I am only giving you a suggestion that you can think about when you hear from somebody who knows more about it than I do. I would not vote to spend $14,000,000 at Columbus. If it were proposed to spend $14,000,000, as a member of this committee I would not vote for it. because I am opposed to spending that amount of money down there. I do not think it is necessary. It would be a waste of Government money. In the first place, as I say, they can reduce that amount of money by taking up the land just outside of Columbus which is very high-priced land, and getting rid of one-third of the land. They were not pledged to it, and ought not to have taken it at firsthand i can get citizens there to release the Government from that part of the transaction. Senator New. I think it would be a perfectly safe thing for you to say to the citizens of Columbus that any such high-priced deal as this would be impossible. 200 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Smith of Georgia. I am perfectly willing to say that there are responsible men in Columbus who will go to those people and see that the Government is relieved from its obligation. As a matter of fact, the owners of the high-priced land would like to keep it, anyhow. The Chairman. According to your theory the title has passed. Senator Smith of Georgia. It has, but they can return it. It takes their consent to not claim pay for the land. That is my view of it, and my statement is that these citizens of Columbus say they will go to the original owners of that land right by Columbus, and get them to agree to relieve the Government from taking that land. Senator New. I have no doubt that these gentlemen here will go just as far in their guaranties in getting the people down there in Chattahoochee County, who are insisting on this, to agree to with¬ draw from the sale. Senator Smith of Georgia. They can not do that because the bulk of the land is owned at Columbus, and I presented letters and tele¬ grams from men who own the bulk of that land to-day in Chatta¬ hoochee County. Senator Sutherland. Mr. Chairman, I think we ought to have more accurate testimony based on the survey made by the Engineer officers- Senator Smith of Georgia. So do I. Senator Sutherland (continuing). As to what this project is going to cost, based on new conditions and material on the ground, and taking in all the factors so that we can have accurate informa¬ tion. Senator Smith of Georgia. Let me say just one word as a sug¬ gestion, and not as evidence—because I am only giving it as a sug¬ gestion—that will reduce the land one-third. Now, then, you have got at Camp Gordon and Camp Hancock, and at Montgomery, and at camps around this place, material that you bought that you have no use for-- The Chairman. Do you know how much? Senator Smith of Georgia. There is fully enough- The Chairman. But how do you know it? Senator Smith of Georgia. I am told by these citizens. I am told by the quartermaster down there and by Col. Eames, and what I am going to do is to ask you to investigate it and see if it is not so. The Chairman. The officers who told you ought to know. Which one of them was it? Senator Smith of Georgia. Col. Wyllie knows it. The Chairman. Colonel, you have the figures as to the cost of this whole plant, have you? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. The Chairman. Then we will call you when Senator Smith gets through. Senator Smith of Georgia. Yes. Whether they have made esti¬ mates as to the present cost of labor I do not know. I am told by Col. Wyllie and others that they have this material already bought at these camps so that it can be used. I know from my own knowl¬ edge of the labor cost in Georgia and the situation generally, that you can get your labor at certainly 33^ per cent less than "it was estimated last summer. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 201 V>w, with those changes I would believe, in the interest of the (government, and forgetting Columbus, that this project is a neces¬ sity here or somewhere else and that we ought to go on with it; but we ought to limit the cost to between $6,000,000 and $7,000,000, somewhere along there; I do not think it would cost over $7,000,000 at the outside. I would not vote for $14,000,000 to be expended there. Senator Sutherland. This is the reason I think it is very im¬ portant to know the exact facts. I think it is important that we should have some testimony with respect to the military necessity. Senator Smith of Georgia. I want to interest you in the possibili¬ ties that I see sufficiently to make you at least desire to have a study of these facts and see if we can not do it. Senator Sutherland. It resolves itself, as I see it, into a question of the military necessity and whether we can afford to put it in if it is necessary. Senator Smith of Georgia. Here is an additional statement that has been furnished by Col. Eames. He was asked by Senator Weeks what it would cost yearly to rim this school. He says: Inquiry has been made as to the cost of the ammunition that will be expended at the Infantry School of Arms in each year. I find that there is on hand accumulated for use in the present war a supply of ammunition that will last almost exactly 20 years if consumed by an army of 250.000, including this school, at the present authorized allowances. The cost of this ammunition in any year will vary so much with the annual allow¬ ances that I am unable to give any figure that will be at all reliable or valuable in connection with this inquiry. The Chairman. That is the roughest kind of a guess. Senator Smith of Georgia. But those are things that can be stud¬ ied out in detail. They are things that we can consider as probable and as reasons for a detailed study. The Chairman. It would not be worth anything in 50 years. Senator Smith of Georgia. Well, as long as it was of any account they would supply it. The Chairman. Yes; but that is not a statement of fact. STATEMENT OF COL. R. E. WYLLIE, GENERAL STAFF, EQUIP¬ MENT BRANCH, DIVISION OF OPERATIONS. The Chairman. Colonel, you heard Senator Smith’s statement? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. The Chairman. And the questions put by some members of the committee as to the probable cost, and the estimates of cost, of this Fort Benning proposition; that is, including the cost of land and all? Col. Wyllie. I think I can explain that. The original estimates for the construction work alone were $14,000,000. Senator New. Construction work alone? Col. Wyllie. Construction work alone. The Chairman. That estimate was made by your department, was it? Col. Wyllie. It was under our direction, by the construction di¬ vision. That was made in war times, and we expect in constructing it in peace times to have some reduction. Senator Sutherland. Have you the details of that estimate show¬ ing what makes it that, Colonel ? 202 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Wyllie. No, sir; I have not. The Construction Division makes up these estimates on the basis of their previous knowledge of what it has cost per building during the Avar. In a building where you use so many men it costs so much per man, and they make up their estimates along that line; and from their experience during the war. Senator Sutherland. I think it would be well to put the details of that estimate into the record and then see what better they can do. Col. Wyllie. I will try to get that. Senator New. I think something in the Avay of detail of that kind is absolutely essential. Col. Wyllie. Then, we ha\ T e on hand material at other camps that can be used in this project, already purchased, of about $6,000,000 as an estimate. The Chairman. Where is that ? Col. Wyllie. That is in the camps around Atlanta, Augusta, and Montgomery, Anniston, Sevier, and Greenville, S. C. The Chairman. Could you not get $6,000,000 for that if you were to sell it ? Col. Wyllie. No, sir. The Chairman. What would you get? Col. Wyllie. The estimate is about 50 per cent. Senator Sutherland. Have you estimated of that, showing what the material is and what its cost is, and what its possible worth is now ? How could you make any basis for that unless you had such a statement ? Col. Wyllie. Well, I get that statement from the Construction Division; that is, the field detail that purchases the material. Senator Sutherland. They have that, and I suggest that a state¬ ment of available material around in that vicinity be obtained and submitted for the information of the committee and put into the record. Col. Wyllie. A detailed list? Senator Sutherland. Yes. Senator New. As to the detail list you mean, Senator Sutherland, a pretty general detail ? Senator Sutherland. Yes; a general detail as to the quantity. Senator New. And character? Senator Sutherland. The amount for the lumber, and things ol that kind. Senator Neav. Let me ask you a question there. You say the original cost was $14,000,000, estimated ? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator Neav. Now, you say you have about $6,000,000 worth of material close at hand in those other camps ? Col. Wyllie. We really have more than that, but we would need about $6,000,000 to finish this project. But we have as much as that. Senator Neav. All right. Now, you reduce your estimate from $14,000,000 to $8,000,000 by reason of that fact; is that so ? Col. Wyllie. Of new money; yes, sir. Senator New. Of new money ? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 203 Senator New. Exactly. Then if you are going to require $8,000,000 new money and $6,000,000 worth ci material, as a matter of fact, you have not reduced your cost from $14,000,000 to $8,000,000 at all, have you ? Col. Wyllie. No, sir. Senator New. So that it is not a reduction at all? Col. Wyllie. No, sir; there is a little bit more. There is a reduc¬ tion, though. We have already done about between a million and a million and a half of dollars worth of work on the place. Senator New. Yes; I understand, but I want to get straight in my mind just what real substance there is in this reduction of cost from $14,000,000 to $6,000,000. Now, if you are counting as a reduction the $6,000,000, or more, worth of materials that you have on hand, that means that you are taking no estimate of the value of that, and as a matter of fact it becomes no reduction at all from your $14,000,000 estimate. Col. Wyllie. There is a reduction, though, because we do not ex¬ pect it to cost much if any over $13,000,000, due to its construction in peace time instead of in war time. The Chairman. $13,000,000 instead of $14,000,000? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is a liberal estimate. Senator New. That, I apprehend, would be accounted for by the difference in the price of labor? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator New. You would save a million dollars in labor over what it would have cost last September, say, and this spring? Col. Wyllie. That is right; yes, sir. The Chairman. May I ask what, according to your sul’vev, would be the cost of the land altogether? Col. Wyllie. The estimate we made was $3,600,000. Senater New. For the land? Col. Wyllie. For the land. The Chairman. Senator Smith stated a while ago that—how many thousand acres did you say would be released? Senator Smith of Georgia. Seventeen thousand acres. The Chairman. Seventeen thousand acres would be released. Do you know how much the land would cost, eliminating 17,000 acres? Col. Wyllie. About $2,500,000. The Chairman. Do you know how much has been paid on the land : acquired ? Col. Wyllie. $30,000. The Chairman. Then that is the total? Senator New. $30,000 ? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; actually paid. The Chairman. Now, that is the total expenditure? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is the total expenditure. The Chairman. Not taking into consideration now the land in¬ volved in the suit, but taking into consideration only the land for which contracts have been made, how much have you yet to pay where you have options ? Col. Wyllie. I do not think we have any options. We have made agreements—that is, we have agreed with the parties for other amounts. 204 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. The Chairman. How much? Col. Wyllie. That I am not sure of because I have not received no¬ tice, and I do not know just how much they would answer to in court. The Chairman. Now having paid out $30,000, and assuming that you may be obligated for more- Col. Wyllie. We are, we know. The Chairman. Would it not be very much cheaper for the Gov¬ ernment as a business proposition to take those lands that you have paid for and take those you have contracted for, unless the parties are willing to release you, and release them all, than for the Gov¬ ernment to buy the land and take title? Col. Wyllie. I do not know whether it would or not, because there would be damages on some of the other land. The Chairman. But it is bound to be normal, is it not? Col. Wyllie. I do not know, sir; the testimony has brought out be¬ fore the committee as to the moving of these people away, Senator; I really do not know what it is. I have been trying to get some sort of an estimate and I can not get one. Senator New. How much of this $30,000 has been paid and how much of the additional sum for which you are obligated, is on that 17,000 acres contiguous to Columbus? Col. Wyllie. None of the $30,000 is on that. I do not know how much of that for which we .have agreements is on that, and how much is not. The Chairman. Was any reservation made by you people at any time in negotiating these deals, that Congress had really not vested you with the power to take title ? Col. Wyllie. We always assumed that we had the power under the statute. The Chairman. But you evidently did not assume that you had the money? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; we had the money too. The Chairman. Then you came down before the Appropriation Committee and wanted to get the money for this very project, and the committee turned it down? Col. Wyllie. I was not aware of that. The Chairman. I think the chairman of the Appropriations Com¬ mittee so stated, but I understand the explanation was made that some members of the committee said you determined that you al¬ ready had the money under another appropriation. I think that is true. Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator Smith of Georgia. Colonel, have you studied the labor conditions now to ascertain what the relative cost of the original estimate was—$4,000,000 for labor was it not, or $5,000,000? Col. Wyllie. The original estimate, as it came to us, did not di¬ vide it into labor and material. As I explained a moment ago, they make their estimates as a lump sum, putting material and labor to¬ gether, based on previous experience as to how much money it takes for the two combined to put up a certain type of' building. Senator Smith of Georgia. And what part was for labor, you da not know? J LAND FOB ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 205 Col. Wyllie. No, sir; simply that we know that the labor is ap¬ proximately 50 per cent of the total cost, perhaps a little bit less than 50 per cent. Senator Smith of Georgia. And what reduction you can make now from the price then of labor, you do not know ? Col. Wyllie. No, sir. We know that it is going down. Senator Smith of Georgia. There has been no survey by the War Department to determine that proposition, has there? Col. Wyllie. I do not think that an accurate survey could be made at the present time. Senator Sutherland. Mr. Chairman, is the colonel going to put in a statement as to the cost now, a complete statement as to what it is going to cost, getting down to the bare facts and the lowest possi¬ ble cost? Col. Wyllie. The estimate we make now is that it will cost about $13,000,000. The Chairman. When you revise your statement, Colonel, will you not kindly put the statement in in detail, as far as you can, of what will go to make up your present estimate? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; I will do that. Senator Sutherland. They say here if they had $6,000,000 the}' could get along with it, and I would like to know just what would be done providing you could not get any such sum as $13,000,000, which, of course, you can not in all probability. Col. Wyllie. I think I can explain that on this line. That means $6,000,000 additional to what has already been spent. Senator Sutherland. But it, of course, takes into account some material, no doubt? Col. Wyllie. That means that added to that $6,000,000 will be the material already on hand and work which has already been done. Senator Sutherland. Then, it would be absolutely necesary to a proper understanding of this matter, in order to get the facts be¬ fore the committee and before the Senate, to have a definite and complete statement of what this is going to cost, and then a state¬ ment as to how you expect to save on housing material on hand. Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator Sutherland. So we will know what is going to be the net new cash outlay, and then we can make up our minds intelligently whether the Government can afford to spend that amount of money, and whether it is neccessary or not. Col. Wyllie. I have a statement of that that I think will cover the matter. Shall I read it? The Chairman. Yes. Col. Wyllie (reading) : The original estimates for the construction were $14,000,000. This was made in war time and a reduction can be expected, due to construction in peace times. The amount already expended and due on the construction already ac¬ complished, is nearly $1,000,000; add to this contractors’ fees, which would have to be paid on the abandonment of the contract and the cost to the Govern¬ ment if the contract is abandoned, will amount to about $1,500,000. Senator Weeks. Let me understand you. Do you mean you would have to pay the entire contractors’ fee^ Col. Wyllie. No, sir; we would have to pay 5£ per cent of every¬ thing he has paid out. 206 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Weeks. For everything that has been done? Col. Wyllie. Yes % sir; $30,000 has been expended'for the purchase of the land, and, on abandonment, damages must be paid on the land now in the possession of the Government. There seems to be no way at the present time of getting any kind of an estimate which would be of any value on this question of land damages. To finish the project, the land must be purchased at an estimated value of $3,600,000. Senator Sutherland. Does that include the $1,000,000 of property rights close to Columbus? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; this means the project as laid out originally. Material now purchased and on hand at other camps, amounting to about $6,000,000, w T ould be utilized at Camp Benmng. This mate¬ rial, if not used, would be sold, and the estimate is that it would bring about 50 per cent of the money expended for it. In addition, further material will be needed to the extent of about $1,500,000, and the labor required will be about $4,500,000. Senator Weeks. What does that material consist of ? Senator Sutherland. I will say, Senator Weeks, that he is going* to submit a statement in detail. The Chairman. Does that meet your request for information, Senator ? Senator Sutherland. Yes, it does. The Chairman. Have you anything further to offer, Senator Smith ? Senator Smith of Georgia. No, sir; I have nothing further to offer, except that I would like to have the committee hear Col. Eames, who had charge of the plans. ADDITIONAL STATEMENT OF COL. H. E. EAMES, COMMANDANT INFANTRY SCHOOL OF ARMS. Senator Smith. Colonel, you are right on the spot in Columbus, are you not, in charge of this school? Col. Fames. Yes, sif. Senator Smith. Have you made any estimate of any reduction which could be made in this plant to bring the total down to an additional expenditure of-something like $6,000,000 outside of this surplus of material that is around there ? Col. Eames. I have, of course, thought a great deal and figured a great deal on the subject of cost. I might say before I came into the Army I was an architect, trained as such, and have some knowledge of construction costs as a consequence. I believe that while it would not be practicable to construct the enterprise at Columbus exactly as determined by the Secretary of War and the War Department, with the money which the Senator has indicated, I think it is entirely practicable to construct for an additional and new expenditure of $6,000,000, a total new expenditure of $6,000,000, a school which would be satisfactory to me as commandant of the school and as an officer having had many years’ experience in commanding a school of this nature. When I say $6,000,000 of new money, I take that to mean $6,000,000 that must be expended for the total, purchase of land and the erection of buildings and the paying of all costs involved in LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 207 it. But I take it that the Government, owning, I am told, some $28,000,000 worth of materials at other camps, for which it has paid, and which must now be salvaged, can, without charging to this en¬ terprise, turn over to the constructing quartermaster such of that ma¬ terial as may be necessary. Senator Weeks. That would not be a businesslike thing to do, Colo¬ nel. Every enterprise ought to show just what it costs, and it material is turned over to this enterprise it should be charged against this enterprise, so we would know the real cost. Col. Eames. Then I should say if it is charged against it, and as a matter of bookkeeping it must be charged against it- Senator Weeks. It would be simply a matter of bookkeeping? Col. Eames. As a matter of bookkeeping it would be charged against it, but the cost of that material, whatever it might be, prob¬ ably it would amount to $5,000,000,1 should say—that is an estimate of mine. When you fix a price on that it depends on what the Gov¬ ernment paid as war prices, or what it is now valued at, if they bought it new, or what its salvage value is. This salvage value would amount to three and a half million dollars; new value of it would amount to perhaps $5,000,000, and this war-time cost would perhaps be $7,000,000. Senator New. That must be added to the cost, to your $6,000,000. Col. Eames. Yes; with such an expenditure we would be able to build a very satisfactory school. It would be, of course, foolish to say that if the Government owns a piece of ground of 100,000 acres, and was given $4,000,000 or $5,000,000 with which to house a school, we know a school could be housed for that money. That would be absurd. Of course, it can be housed; some school can be housed for that amount of money. Senator New. The point I was trying to reach in my own mind is what the real actual cost of this thing is to be, and, as Senator Weeks has said, as a matter of bookkeeping, of course, that material must be charged to this particular account, and it is properly chargeable there, not merely as a matter of bookkeeping, but as a matter of actual cost. You can not ignore the fact that that value goes into that particular enterprise and that the cost of it is not to be regarded as a total of $6,000,000 at all, but a total of $12,000,000 or $13,000,000. It does not purport to prove that the Government has that material. I quite agree, however, that, of course, having it it should put it to good use. That is all right enough, but at the same time, for my own satisfaction and the proper consideration of the real facts, I Tvant it understood that it is a $13,000,000 proposition and not a $6,000,000 proposition. Col. Eames. Yes, sir; it should be understood, however, that a school can be housed in temporary or expensive quarters—expensive because of their temporary nature—for less money than that con¬ templated by the construction division. Senator Smith. Now, Colonel, the problem with reference to the value of this material which you would get from these other camps depends in a large part in estimating it as a matter of cost upon what that material owned by the Government could be disposed of for. Col. Eames. Yes, sir; of course. 208 LAND FOE ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Senator Smith. And that is a question that at present is a matter of doubt? Col. Eames. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. Your own estimate, I believe, was that it could not be disposed of at more than 50 per cent of its cost. Col. Eames. I think that is a conservative estimate. The Chairman. I think it would be equally as conservative to put it below that, because as a rule these properties that are sold bring practically nothing. Col. Eames. The best examples I have knowledge of averaged 30 per cent. The Chairman. I think that is a large estimate. That is my ex¬ perience and observation. Col. Eames. But it seems to me—if I may say so I take a great and very personal interest in this school, because for so many years I have devoted myself to education in the Army, and for the last four or five years exclusively to education along this particular line, and I feel very strongly the importance and the absolute necessity of such a school as this. I have examined so many sites throughout the United States that I know that this is a very unique proposition at Columbus topographically and from every other point of view, so that I feel it would be a great mistake, having gone as far as the Government has gone in the matter of procuring this site, not to consummate it my continuing the purchase of the ground and the building thereon of as much of a school as Congress in its wisdom sees fit to give to the War Department. The War Department has shown what, in their judgment, should be built, but if Congress is unwilling to permit that expenditure, then they should build what- even can be built with as much money as Congress will give. I think it would be a great mistake to let this opportunity pass because of the inability of Congress to give to the War Department the money they feel they need to build the project as designed by them. Senator Smith. Have you made a study of the other camps and other properties which the Government has to s6e what it would cost relatively to put this school on any one of them instead of here? You have already furnished a statement with reference to that? Col. Eames. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. What is your conclusion with reference to the relative cost? Col. Eames. I believe it would be cheaper to build this school at Columbus and go on with this project, with such modification as has been suggested here this morning, than it would be to move it to any cantonment site. In that connection it should be noted that we have some 16 cantonment sites; that is to say, they are wooden houses; we have 16 division camps where soldiers are quartered in canvas tents that last only a few months and have to be renewed from time to time. These are excluded. Senator New. So far as the cantonments are concerned, the build¬ ings at the cantonments, I suppose, could be used for temporary purposes, but you have no grounds in connection with them. Col. Eames. No grounds at all. There are only 2 out of the 16 that the Government owns; one of them is Camp' Funston and the other one is Camp Lewis. LAND FOE AKTILLEEY TRAINING FIELDS. 209 Senator Smith. That is in the State of Washington? Col. Eames. That is in the State of Washington; and even there you could not use it for that purpose, because it was ceded to the Government with the understanding it would be used for maneuver¬ ing purposes only. Senator Sutherland. That is Camp Lewis ? Col. Eames. Yes, sir. Senator Sutherland. How about Camp Funston? Col. Eames. Camp Funston already has a school of equitation, cooks and bakers’ schools, a medical school, a firing school, artillery firing school at that point, and has, I think, if I am not mistaken, 19,000 acres. Senator Sutherland. Haven’t you a school of equitation at Fort Riley ? Col. Eames. That is at Fort Riley. The Fort Riley Reservation has 19,000 acres in it, and on one part of it Camp Funston has been erected. Senator Smith. Have you studied the area at each one of these different places, the land owned by the Government and the cost, of additional land, to see whether it is practical and more economical to take this school to some other point? Col. Eames. Yes, sir; there are several of these sites that are not suitable for the school because of their climatic conditions. There are certain geographical and climatic conditions which are governing in a matter of this sort which are not met at a great many of these places. The amount of land that is rented—none of it is owned. When I say none of it is owned, I mean with the exception of these two it is rented, and in every case it is a small tract of land. The largest tract of land is that at Camp Taylor, where they have 23,000 acres. The smallest- Senator New. Camp Taylor is at Louisville, Ky. ? Col. Eames. Yes, sir; at Louisville, Ky. Senator Weeks. Does the Government own the land at Camp Taylor? Col. Eames. No, sir; it owns some land near there. Camp Dodge is the smallest, with 5,000 acres. Yet, at the prices that are fixed by the owners on these rented pieces of ground, it would cost, for instance, if we went to Camp Dodge, in Iowa, it would cost $21,000,- 000 to buy the land necessary, and so on at the different other places. At Camp Custer, in Michigan—that may be excluded because of climatic conditions existing there—but it would cost about $8,000,000 to buy the land. At Camp Devens, which is far in the East and also in the North, it would cost over $3,000,000 to buy the land; at Camp Dix, which is at Wrightstown, N. J., and Camp Dodge and Camp Gordon it would, in every case, cost four or five times what it would cost to buy this land at Columbus. The highest priced land probably is at Camp Grant, at Rockford, Ill., which would cost $28,750,000 to buy the land. Senator New. To buy how much land? Col. Eames. The 100,000 acres which we feel is necessary. The Chairman. Did you ever look over any public lands in Arizona or New Mexico or along the border, where they have eternal summer? 99137—19-14 210 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Eames. Yes, sir; I have been on some of them, passed through them, and served on some of them; but where they have this very pleasant climate, and where you can work all the year around, you strike other conditions, such as cost of maintenance, the transporta¬ tion necessary to bring troops from the far East; you have in many of these places sand storms and glare and high winds in some of them that make it impracticable to conduct a school with any degree of satisfaction. Senator McKellar. What is the trouble with Fort Sill? Col. Eames. Fort Sill has many troubles. I lived there several years. In the first place, it is too small. Senator McKellar. What is the matter with the camp in Senator Beckham’s State—Camp Knox? Col. Eames. That is a camp that is built for artillery. Senator McKellar. What is the matter with the camp in North Carolina—F ayetteville ? Col. Eames. Fayetteville has a very good climate and very good soil; it is a little bit East. Still, it is practicable in that way, but the area at that point is nearly all wooded. I made a very careful examination of Fayetteville, i have gone over it twice. Senator McKellar. Was it recommended for this purpose? Col. Eames. Yes; but not the camp site that was finally bought for the Artillery. When I went out there I was looking for a tract of 250,000 acres for an Infantry school of arms under war conditions. The school at Camp Perry had not yet joined me, nor was it in contemplation. I went to Fayetteville and found a very excellent site at that point, but it was not chosen by the Artillery, and it in¬ cluded a great deal of open ground. It was excluded from the Artil¬ lery project, so that the camp at Fayetteville, so called, is not the camp at Fayetteville to which I referred in my report, stating that it was an excellent one. As it stands now, with the acquired land for Camp Bragg, it is not suitable, because it is too heavily wooded and because there is no suitable place for an A range within a reasonable distance of the existing buildings- Senator McKellar. Does it include open land ? Col. Eames. There is some open land. There is open land in the aviation field, which is a mile or two from the buildings. Senator McKellar. Why should all of these—— Col. Eames. At every one of these schools it is necessary to main¬ tain, for example, a printing plant, a photograph plant, a machine shop, a drafting room, an experimental department, and a great many institutions—a great many things of that character. There is no reason or sense in duplicating them. Senator McKellar. Did you have anything to do with the selec¬ tion of the camp at Camp Knox—I believe that is the name of it— Camp Knox, in Kentucky, and Camp Bragg, in North Carolina? Col. Eames. Nothing with Camp Knox. I did go to Camp Bragg. I made two trips there. Senator McKellar. You understood that Congress had declined to grant appropriations for the purchase of these camps, did you not? Col. Eames. No, sir. Senator McKellar. Did you know that recommendations had been made by the department and taken before the Committee on LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 211 Appropriations of the House am 1 Senate, and the Appropriations Committee of the Senate declined to permit it, and then you went ahead, went right straight along and purchased these camps, and now you are undertaking to purchase a permanent camp down there at Columbus, Ga., without complying with the directions of Congress and the expression of the will of Congress? Col. Eames. No, sir; I know nothing of that. The Chairman. That w r as all gone into, and I think it was claimed here and shown by a preponderance of the testimony that the Ap¬ propriations Committee turned it down on the theory that they had the money already. Senator McKellar. I want, at the proper time, to introduce Sen¬ ator Martin, the chairman of the Appropriations Committee of the Senate, who, I understand, will testify that it was turned down be¬ cause the committee declined to appropriate for this purpose, and that they thought the project was defeated. The Senator told me that a day or two ago. Senator Warren. That is correct; the Appropriations Committee disallowed the appropriation because they did not approve of the building, nor of the buying of the land. Senator McKellar. And thereupon the department went ahead and bought it anyway, and when it came to Camp Benning, requiring the expenditure of $14,000,000 there, they took the precaution not to come before Congress, but to use this lump-sum appropriation, with¬ out reference to the wishes of Congress about it. Senator Smith. That is a subject that you have nothing to do with. You simply execute your orders as issued to you from the War Department ? Col. Eames. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. From whom did you get your orders to go ahead and select the camp after Congress had turned it down ? Senator Smith. I think it is hardly fair to say “ after Congress had turned it down.” I do not think Congress did turn it down. Senator McKellar. Well, here is the ranking member, I think, of the Appropriations Committee, who has said so. Senator Smith. The question is whether the Military Committee, which reported the general military bill, furnished an appropriation to justify this expenditure. The Appropriations Committee might not have appropriated an additional one. Col. Eames. I had a perfectly competent order to me. Senator McKellar. From whom did you get that order? Col. Fames. From The Adjutant General. Senator McKellar. Signed by him and approved by the Secretary of War? Col. Eames. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Will you put that order into the record? Col. Eames. I will get a copy of the order; yes, sir. Senator Weeks. Col. Eames, I would like to ask a question there. Do you know what area the German Empire had in camps designed for a similar purpose to that for which this is designed, before the war? Col. Eames. Not in acreage, Senator; but I know it was approxi¬ mately what we are contemplating at Camp Benning, both in acreage 212 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. and number and character of students to be graduated. Their school is hardly to be compared with ours, except in the matter of area, because of the character of their construction. They have a small country compared to ours, and they can bring the same officers to the school three or four times. We expect to bring him once to the school for his education and get through with him. Senator Weeks. Do you know how much area, or approximately how much, the German Empire had in all camps for military pur¬ poses? Col. Eames. No, sir. Senator Weeks. Isn’t that in the War Department—that informa¬ tion, in your opinion? Col. Eames. It perhaps could be found. I spent a half a day in an effort to find that very information, but in that time was unable to find it. I found nearly everything else about the German Empire but that. Senator Weeks. Mr. Chairman, I think that would be useful in¬ formation for this committee to have. We may require an incom¬ parable Navy, but we certainly will not require greater facilities for instructing an Army than the Germans had at the beginning of the war. Senator McKellar. I do not think we will require as great. We are not going to substitute American militarism for German mili¬ tarism. Senator New. Who were the members of the board in the selection of this site? Col. Eames. Col. Reese, now at Camp Grant, commanding the cadet school at Camp Grant; Lieut. Pope, w T ho is now at West Point, an instructor in bayonet combat; and Maj. Lowe, medical officer. Senator New. They went with you to all of these other sites ? Col. Eames. Yes, sir; they went with me to all of these other sites. Senator New. And to Columbus? Col Eames. And to Columbus. Senator New. And the decision of that board was unanimous, was it, in favor of the Columbus site ? Col. Eames. Of Columbus, yes. We had two sites, either one of which was satisfactory'to the board, one at Fayetteville, N. C., and one at Columbus, Ga. The Chairman. Did you go to any point on the west coast— California ? Col. Eames. We did not go to the west coast, because the sites there were rejected on account of their distance. At that time, it should be understood, we were to get our students from certain officers’ training camps that were located from Texas through the East, and as a matter of economy in transportation they wanted to choose a place which was centrally located, so that the transportation cost would be minimized and be placed as near to these camps as possible, in order that the Pullman equipment should be minimized. Senator McKellar. How many did you examine? How many sites ? Col. Eames. We physically examined about five. Senator McKellar. Where were they ? LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 213 Col. Eames. Columbus, Ga.; Fayetteville, N. C.; Raleigh, N. C.; Knoxville, Tenn.; Muskogee, Okla.; Oklahoma City, Okla.; and Wichita, Forest Reservation. Of course, we were at Fort Sill. Senator New. Colonel, what was the original recommendation by the board for the area of this Columbus site? How much land did that recommendation comprehend? Col. Eames. We made no recommendation on that, Senator. My instructions came to me from Washington as to the area, which was 250,000 acres, that was deemed necessary for the very large school that was then contemplated. Senator New. Was the construction for 250,000 acres? Col. Eames. Yes, sir; the school at that time was a 70,000-men school. Senator New. Of course that has been greatly modified since? Col. Eames. Yes, sir. Senator New. My attention has been attracted here, as we have gone along, listening to this testimony, to the various sizes that have been suggested from time to time for this camp and school as you contemplate, that there was at one time, I believe, something like 140,000 acres recommended; that was reduced, and again reduced until you now have, according to what Senator Smith said here a little while ago, reached the conclusion that 98,000 acres will suffice. Is that correct? Col. Eames. Yes, sir; in my judgment, 115,000 acres, as outlined in the condemnation proceedings, is correct. I have myself outlined the area needed, and that was included in the condemnation proceed¬ ings, and I still think that is the correct area and properly located geographically with relation to the camp site. Senator New. That is, that the 115,000 acres is the correct area? Col. Eames. One hundred and fifteen thousand acres. I can get along with 98,000 acres; the reduction of 17,000 was made after a consultation with my assistant commandant and myself and a study of the ground. t Senator New. Who is your assistant? Col. Eames. Col. Mumma; and we agreed that we could eliminate the 17,000 acres, which would cost approximately $1,000,000, and still function there satisfactorily. It gives up some of the future of the school and it will cause a little trouble in the future for the commanding officer, because of the 5-mile zone and police purposes. It put us so far out of Columbus that Columbus could be wide open to both liquor and vice so far as we are concerned, because it put us outside of the limit. Senator New. Of what board was Maj. Malone a member? Col. Eames. I don’t recall that Maj. Malone was a member of any of these boards. Senator New. I thought that Maj. Malone- Col. Eames. Oh, you mean Maloney? Senator New. Maloney; I beg your pardon. Col. Eames. There is a Maj. Maloney who was not a member of any board, except he was ordered to report to me and assist me in the selection of a target range. That is, an A range, and he did, and did very well. Senator New. Maj. Crutchfield is in the same position as Maj. Maloney ? 214 LAND LOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Eames. Yes; in the same position as Maj. Maloney. Senator Weeks. Did you suggest in your reply that there was liquor in Columbus, Ga. ? Col. Eames. No; I said there could be liquor in Columbus, Ga., so far as the 5-mile limit was concerned. The Chairman. If there is nothing else, Senator New, we have an¬ other witness. Senator Weeks. There is just one question I would like to ask. Have you made any estimate of the cost of maintaining a plant of this kind in operation as compared with the cost if it were not being operated—the annual cost? Col. Eames. No, sir; I have not made such a one; it would be rather difficult to make. Senator Weeks. Could you do it? Col. Eames. I could make it. One of the great difficulties would be, first, in any big enterprise, the question of holding our organiza¬ tion together; we have 400 highly skilled men who are familiar with certain detail work in this that would gradually drift away, and a very great damage would be done if they were out. Senator Weeks. I do not think you quite catch my meaning. After this camp is complete, suppose it were completed as you con¬ template, then the Government would have to maintain it. Col. Eames. Yes, sir. Senator Weeks. Our experience in the past has been that the maintenance of many camps or forts has been very considerable an¬ nually, even if they were not being used. Now, what I am inquiring about is what would be the probable cost of maintenance of this es¬ tablishment, if you can call it that, if it were not being used, and what would be the cost if it were being used, so we may know 7 what we are getting into in addition to the original cost ? Col. Eames. It provides a home for a certain portion of the Army that I presume w 7 e must have—a garrison. Eight thousand of the whole force of 10,000 would have to be provided with a home some¬ where. The Chairman. We have places for that. We have lots of garri¬ sons that we have been for years talking about abandoning —some of them. Senator McKellar. What Senator Weeks wishes to know is what it is going to cost after we establish it, after you have spent the amounts how T much is it going to cost? Col. Eames. I w T ould have to get the figures on that. Senator Weeks. Do you think you can make an approximate estimate ? Col. Eames. Yes, sir: I could make an approximate estimate. Senator Weeks. I w T ish you would do that and put it into the record, including the interest on the cost of the investment. Col. Eames. Very well, sir. Senator Smith. I understand you to say, Colonel, while it would not measure up to as big a school as you had contemplated, that for $6,000,000, wdth the privilege of using the lumber that is around, and the material which has been bought and which the Government does not need and which is now located at adjoining camps, you could build the enterprise—complete the enterprise—and that it LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 215 would be extremely satisfactory to you in the years to come as com¬ mandant of such a school. Col. Eames. Of course, Senator, that goes into a matter of policy. I am speaking purely for myself and as the commandant. Senator McKellar. Practically speaking, that means this, that while you reduce the amount to be immediately expended to $6,000,000, of course the school would have to come back to Congress and get an additional amount to make it such a school as you intend to make it. Col. Eames. Ultimately that would probably result. Senator McKellar. We understand that would ultimately be true, because we have to do that all the time, and about the estimates of the camps, all you have to do is to go and look at the figures on the cantonments and you will find that they have always been doubled, or about doubled, before they are completed. Senator Smith. You do not mean to come back to Congress for the school you are talking about ? Col. Eames. Oh, no. Senator Smith. They may in future years enlarge it if they see fit? Col. Eames. Yes, sir. Senator Smith. And you mean you can make a practical school for this purpose with that money ? Col. Eames. I certainly can. Senator Smith. Did Col. Brookhart have any connection with the selection of this camp of the National Guard? Col. Eames. No, sir. Senator Smith. Or Maj. Crutchfield? Col. Eames. Maj. Crutchfield assisted me in selecting the Class A target range. Senator Smith. How many Class A target ranges have you in this country? Col. Eames. At nearly half of the military posts—the original military posts—there are target ranges. In some cases they are owned and in other cases they are rented. At the cantonments, prac¬ tically all of the cantonments have small target ranges. They are not, however, suitable for this work. Our work is different from the ordinary work of teaching the soldier how to shoot; we are teaching instructors how to instruct in shooting. It is a slightly different problem. Senator Wadsworth. Colonel, could you tell us what disposition has been made by the Government of the target range which is situ¬ ated about 30 miles from Spartanburg? Col. Eames. I think that is still in existence, as far as I know. Senator Wadsworth. That covers territory 7 miles long? Col. Eames. Yes, sir; it is a very large range. Senator Wadsworth. Do you know what the purpose of the de¬ partment is as to its future use? Col. Eames. I do not. Senator Wadsworth. Is it owned by the Government ? Col. Eames. That I am not prepared to say. Col. Wyllie could perhaps tell you that. . . , , A Senator Wadsworth. Do you know whether it is owned or rented, Col. Wyllie? 216 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Wyllie. I think it is rented. Senator Smith. Would that be large enough for your school of arms and the enterprise you had in view ? Col. Eames. At Spartanburg? Senator Smith. Yes. Col. Eames. Its geographical situation Vould preclude its efficient use. Senator McKellar. Why? Col. Eames. Because it is so far from the center of population— from the center of military population. Senator McKellar. Spartanburg is? Col. Eames. Perhaps you are speaking of Wisconsin. Senator Wadsworth. I am speaking of South Carolina. Col. Eames. I do not know about that. That is a different place. Senator Wadsworth. I visited the range myself and it is a large range and it is used by the troops of the Spartanburg encampment. Col. Eames. I was thinking of Sparta, Wis. Senator Smith. Is there anything else you think of that you think would be of value to the committee ? Col. Eames. Nothing at all, sir. Senator New. I would like to ask a question here. Independent of that question raised about Sparta, Wis., what disposition, Colonel, as a matter of general information, is to be made of the reserve at Sparta, Wis., do you know ? Col. Eames. I do not know. Col. Wyllie. I can answer that question. Senator New. I wish you would, Colonel. Col. Wyllie. We expect to use it as a depot for ordnance. Senator New. For ordnance? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; for explosives and tractors. Senator New. How much land does the Government own there? Senator Wyllie. I do not recall. Senator New. A considerable area, isn’t it? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; a considerable area, but nothing like 100,000 acres; it is a considerable area, however. The Chairman. Speaking of depots and ordnance, I was down at South Carolina a short while ago where they had built immense docks and buildings on a reserve for storage of ordnance and quar¬ termaster supplies as well. What are you going to do with that? Col. Wyllie. Do you mean near the port—near Charleston? The Chairman. Yes, sir. Col. Wyllie. That is a port of embarkation for overseas. The Chairman. I know you have an immense tract of ground there, and buildings built especially for storing ordnance. Col. Wyllie. The principle thing we were to store there is T. N. T., high explosives. The Chairman, f thought you dropped a good deal of that into the sea. Col. Wyllie. No, sir. The Chairman. None of it? Col. Wyllie. None of it. The Chairman. What became of the explosives in New Jersey? Col. Wyllie. They were taken to another place. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 217 The Chairman. I understood from Senator Frelinghuysen that they dumped a lot of that into the sea. Col. Wyllie. I believe they dumped some belonging to the French Government into the sea, which was at Wilmington, N. C. Senator McKellar. Does it deteriorate with age? Col. Wyllie. No, sir; not as far as I know. Senator New. I saw a newspaper account a very short time ago which told of two or three shiploads of some high explosive, I don’t think it was T. N. T.; I don’t remember just what it was, that was towed out to sea from one of the New Jersey ports and dumped into the sea. Senator McKellar. That was the T. N. T. or other high explosive that belonged to the French Government. Senator New. I think it was stated that that belonged to the French Government. It w T ent out from the New Jersey coast. Senator McKellar. That is your understanding ? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is my understanding. Senator Wadsworth. I would like to get further information about the Spartanburg range, if the Colonel can tell us what the plan of the Government is for its use and disposition? Col. Wyllie. I do not think we expect to keep that; we expect to turn that back; that was rented land and it was used in connection with the plan down there at Spartanburg. We have no expectation of keeping it. Senator McKellar. How many cantonments do you expect to retain ? Col. Wyllie. We have asked for authority to take over these 14 cantonments. There are 16 contonments, two of which are on Government-owned ground, and the others are on leased ground. Senator McKellar. Which two does the Government own? Col. Wyllie. Camp Funston and Camp Lewis, and the amount of money which we have to put into these will be such that it is con¬ sidered to be a good business proposition to purchase the land with a view to using them in peace times for maneuvering purposes. Senator McKellar. That is, when you have the buildings already built? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is where we have the buildings already built. Senator McKellar. Wooden buildings already built? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Now, if we can create a large enough estab¬ lishment to fill these 16 cantonments we will be doing pretty well; and couldn’t we take care of our war activities in those 16 canton¬ ments ? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; we have more than enough to take care of anything we might have. Senator McKellar. Why is it necessary to buy and build these large camps we are now discussing? Col. Wyllie. Because these places are on ground—there is not enough land there for this purpose, and it would cost too much to acquire the land. Senator McKellar. The one at Fort Sill, is that a permanent camp ? 218 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is a permanent camp. Senator McKellar. You have used Fort Sill for a school of mus¬ ketry all during this war, and if you managed to get along with it during the war, why can’t you manage to get along with it in peace times without this immense cost to build another camp, if we haven’t any use for it ? Col. Wyllie. The Infantry school was crowded out of Fort Sill. Senator McKellar. But you can readjust that, can you not ? You have got other cantonments that you can remove other bodies of troops to; for instance* if Fort Sill is already fitted for a school of musketry. Surely you can move the school that is there to some of these other camps that you have. Col. Wyllie. It is really fitted for a school of artillery; a school of musketry merely went in there. Senator McKellar. You have other camps fitted for artillery. Col. Wyllie. No, sir; only those we have especially built for that purpose at Bragg and Knox. Senator McKellar. Bragg and Knox. You do not want three, do you? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. Will it take three cantonments to provide for artillery schools? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; the Chief of Field Artillery wants more than that. Senator McKellar. If you give them all they want you will have an Army twice as big as Germany ever had. Col. Wyllie. That is the expectation. The school of Artillery at Fort Sill is not quite the same as the schools at Bragg and Knox. Senator McKellar. Not quite the same, but for all practical pur¬ poses it would do. We are going to have three great cantonments for training officers of Artillery, as I understand it. Is that correct? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. How many officers are going to be taught in these three schools ? What is contemplated ? Col. Wyllie. I do not know the details of that, sir. Senator McKellar. Ought not we to have the details before we spend this large sum of money for other schools, when we have these cantonments already built? Col. Wyllie. These schools at Bragg and Knox are not for teach¬ ing officers; they are for teaching units entirely—complete units. Senator McKellar. How many will they take care of? Col. Wyllie. Knox will accommodate four brigades and Bragg will accommodate two brigades. Senator Wadsworth. May I ask, Colonel, wliat disposition is to be made of Mulberry Island? Col. Wyllie. That is to be retained. Senator Wadsworth. For heavy artillery? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; for heavy artillery. Senator Wadsworth. That makes another school. Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir. Senator Wadsworth. Do you remember what the Government paid for that? Col. Wyllie. I do not. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 219 Senator McKellar. What about Camp Huestis? Senator Wadsworth. That is Mulberry Island. Do you remem¬ ber its acreage? Col. Wyllie. No: I don’t remember the acreage. Senator Wadsworth. It is about 20 miles long. Col. Wyllie. Yes; it is about 20 miles long, but it is narrow. Senator Wadsworth. That is to accommodate two brigades? Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; that is to accomodate two brigades. Senator Wadsworth. Is that finished now ? Col. Wyllie. Yes; it is finished up for two brigades. We were going to make it for three brigades when the armistice came, and we cut off the additional brigade. Senator Wadsworth. What artillery is to be trained there in time of peace? Col. Wyllie. The heavy artillery, railroads, and 9.2 howitzers, and things of that kind. Senator Wadsworth. Everything above G inches. Col. Wyllie. Yes, sir; everything above 6 inches. STATEMENT OF LIEUT. COL. SMITH W. BROOKHART. Senator Smith of Georgia. What is your residence? What State are you from? Col. Brookhart. I reside in Iowa—Washington, Iowa. Senator Smith of Georgia. You are a member of the National Guard ? Col. Brookhart. I have been a member of the National Guard for almost 20 years. I served in the Spanish War and now, for about • 14 months, in this war. Senator Smith of Georgia. Will you just state to the committee what this Columbus project is and what your views are of its im¬ portance, and I will not ask you questions, but just let you make a brief statement in your own language, and then we will ask you questions afterwards. Col. Brookhart. Gentlemen, my duties during the past 10 or 12 years have been as a trainer of riflemen. I train officers and men to shoot the rifle and the pistol, and I want to suggest this to you that this school, the department of which I am director now, is the out¬ growth of what I regard as one of the big lessons of this war. We had two schools in the armies of the world before the war in refer¬ ence to straight shooting, and the Germans and French adopted the view that a poor rifleman would get more hits in war than a good one, and that was taught in these armies, except that the Germans quietly did train a very large corps of snipers—sharpshooters. In our Army we were divided, some believing the German theory and some followed the other. I for years have been on the National Board for Promotion of Rifle Practice, a board created by Congress, and had stood for the straight shooting. During my experience be¬ fore the war I trained 10,000 men to shoot the rifle and the pistol. In that number there were 16 who won medals in world champion¬ ship contests. So I had had experience in training every grade of rifleman when the war began. The authorities in charge of our Army perhaps at that time leaned more to the theory that we did 220 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. not need straight shooting, but that is not true now. That argu¬ ment has been ended. There is no officer anywhere now that stands for that theory. When in the border service I trained the Iowa troops—there were 4,600 of them—and in five weeks on their own range they fired an average of 300 rounds per man and every shot was fired under the direction of a competent rifleman. No more were fired in the border service; after they left their own home State range they fired not another shot. Eighteen men were trained as a rifle team. When this war broke out the Iowa regiments were again mobilized and the one that went in the Rainbow Division was camped within 12 miles of a rifle range for two months and went across without firing a shot. Fifty per cent of those men had re¬ ceived this training which I gave them in 1916, about 300 rounds per man, which is about five days of training; 10 per cent of those were highly trained riflemen that had been with me for years and had been in the National Guard training year after year. The other 50* per cent had never fired a rifle and did not. It was things like that which caused Gen. Pershing’s cablegrams which were read here the other day, and you must remember those cablegrams began in August and they ran over a period up to the following April, when the firing school was established at Camp Perry. Col. Mumma was made commandant of that and he made me the chief instructor in that school. We there trained 6,000 offi¬ cers, or a little over 5,000 officers and about 800 civilians. Among those civilians was one National Guard—I will not call them civilians either—and the National Guard rifle team from the State of Ar¬ kansas was the only one that reported in those matches. It has been stated by some one that two or three days were sufficient to train a rifleman. That is a very grave error, gentlemen; it is not. There are a large number of things involved in rifle training if you are going to hit anything that requires instruction and work and prac¬ tice and ammunition and all of that. The National Guard team from the State of Arkansas was with us three weeks; two weeks in training and one week in matches, and when that was over three officers of that team stayed with us two weeks longer at their own expense to get further instruction in this school. When this school was closed on the 6th of October I went on special duty as an instructor and had the Nineteenth Division, Camp Dodge, Iowa. I there found and got a detail of 46 of the graduates of my school at Perry, and I reproduced the Camp Perry school in that division, and in three weeks we trained officers and noncommissioned officers, 1,100 of them, over the same course, substantially as we did at Perry, and had started a second school of the same size when I left the division. That was the only division in the United States Army that had enough instructors trained to take care of the rifle training as it came to the ranges. Now, this Iowa regiment that went across in the Rainbow Division, in the first eight days of the fighting, driving the Germans back from the Marne, had 1,400 casualties. One-half of its effective strength was hit in that fight, and I have letters and information about the character of fighting, and I will say to you that only a small per¬ centage of that regiment was trained as it ought to have been trained, LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 221 and the penalty was death. That is what it meant in that. Now, we have overcome all of this proposition and our Army is now united and fully determined that we should train every man in the Ameri¬ can Army to shoot to hit, and our school at Perry has been trans¬ ferred to this Columbus school and made the department of marks¬ manship and I have been the director and am now the director of that department, and we have trained the graduating West Point class in marksmanship. It was our first class in that school. The continuation of this school means that the proper training of our Army will be given in the future. Now t , I am not interested in Columbus. Any other location would suit me just as well providing we could do the work. Columbus is suitable. It has the rifle range close to the camp, 150 yards away, where no time will be lost; where we will get the benefit of training every moment we are at it. All of these other cantonments were built without reference to that. Nobody paid any particular attention to it. The rifle ranges are 15 or 18 miles away in some instances. The best one is perhaps Camp Dodge, Iowa, in my own State, and I will say to you I will be very glad to have this school go to Camp Dodge, Iowa. It is available; it has a rifle range, already built, and it has a cantonment. The Chairman. Is that Government owned? Col. Brookhart. No, sir; it is a rented range. It is on poor land, and as has been shown you, it will cost $21,000,000 to get the land in our State; that is, provided you are going to buy it. Senator New. What is the size of it? Col. Brookhart. Of which ? Senator New. Of Fort Dodge. Col. Brookhart. The Government and State together own about 1,000 acres there now. The rifle range is on that and outside of the cantonment, but all the rest would have to be bought. Senator McKellar. What about Camp Perry ? Col. Brookhart. Camp Perry has about 400 acres and is very fine for an A range, but gives no opportunity at all for the other train¬ ing that goes with that in the school. Senator McKellar. What other training? Col. Brookhart. Training in scouting and patrolling, training in field combat fire, collective firing, and all of that, which requires a big territory of ground. That follows this training in accurate shooting. After a man has learned to shoot straight and hit and learned to manage these conditions, then we send him out in the different units as they are going to be organized for the firing, and have these open field firing targets. That is what they call the musketry school. Ours is called the marksmanship school. At Camp Dodge there is plenty of ground there suitable for this mus¬ ketry, but it would have to be acquired at a much higher price. Senator Beckham. Do you think Columbus is more available and cheaper than Camp Dodge? Col. Brookhart. The land alone would cost $20,000,000 at Camp Dodge, and the rifle range would be a mile away from the canton¬ ment, and nothing like as convenient as it is at Columbus. That is one trouble about taking any of these cantonments, as I have already suggested, as far as I know, and I have seen several of them; they are not built with reference to this idea that I am telling you about. 222 LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. We are now all convinced that the best part of military training is this training that we expect to give. It is training in the things they are actually going to clo in war more than anything else. Senator McKellar. That is the same kind of training that has been given during the war? Col. Brookhart. Yes. Senator McKellar. Why do you want to improve your facilities after the war is over, if this gave you the kind of training that you have just spoken of, and I have no doubt it was all right? Senator Smith of Georgia. He said it was not all right. Col. Brookhart. I have just said to you, Senator, that not to ex¬ ceed 10 per cent of the Third Iowa Begiment with the Rainbow Divi¬ sion was properly trained, or were properly trained at that time, and they have suffered the penalty from their lack of training, and I know it. Senator Smith of Georgia. You believe many of those deaths would have been avoided? Col. Brookhart. I am very certain that is true, and there is no officer in the Army now that claims otherwise. Senator McKellar. Were you with any of those troops? Col. Brookhart. I was not; I was not ever permitted to train them, although it was my duty, sir. Senator Smith of Georgia. You are not a Regular Army officer? Col. Brookhart. No, sir. Senator Smith of Georgia. You are a National Guard officer? Col. Brookhart. Yes, sir; I am a National Guard officer. Senator Smith of Georgia. And you expect to retire to civil life ? Col. Brookhart. Yes; I have applied for a discharge, and will be released, I have been informed, after this course in this school is worked out. I am preparing the marksmanship course of instruction for this school. Senator Wadsworth. The engagement referred to in which the One Hundred and Sixty-eight Infantry took part was the crossing of the Ourc River? Col. Brookhart. Yes, sir. Senator McKellar. If no other question is to be asked on that, I want to ask you: You say you are a member of the National Guard. Is there any such organization now ? Col. Brookhart. I think so. Senator. I think there is some talk in the newspapers about the National Guard being wiped out of existence, but the law has not been changed, and the law itself pro¬ vided that after the National Guard was drafted into the Federal service it would be discharged to civil life, and I think that is cor¬ rect, and it will be discharged; they will be civilians; but the law provides for its reorganization, and nine States, I believe, have the National Guard organization now. The Chairman. We made an appropriation for that. Col. Brookhart. Yes, sir; that is our understanding. Senator McKellar. You are not in favor of its being disbanded and disorganized? Col. Brookhart. No; not unless a system of universal training is adopted to replace both the Regular Army and the National Guard, and if we continue under the old plan I am very emphatically in favor of the National Guard. LAND FOR ARTILLERY TRAINING FIELDS. 223 Senator Smith of Georgia. Did you have anything to do with sending these national guardsmen to this school for training? Col. Brookiiart. Yes; it is the plan that the National Guard offi¬ cers should be trained in this school also. I certainly think all of them ought to have the instruction in this school. Senator McKellar. Do you know whether or not the plan of the General Staff or the War College is to have a National Guard? Col. Brookhart. I do not know anything about that. Senator McKellar. I saw a notice to that effect in the newspapers. Col. Brookiiart. I know absolutely nothing of that, Senator. I presume in due time their plans will be presented to Congress. Senator Smith of Georgia. If there is a National Guard, you think the officers ought to have this instruction? Col. Brookiiart. I do; and I think there ought to be a National Guard. Senator McKellar. I agree with you. The Chairman. Have you anything further you want to ask Col. Brookhart, Senator Smith? Senator Smith of Georgia. I have not. Maj. Crutchfield, who is adjutant general of Ohio, is here, but his statement would be very much along the same line as that of Col. Brookhart. Maj. Crutchfield. T certainly O. K. everything Col. Brookhart has said. Senator Smith of Georgia. His views just corroborate those of Col. Brookhart. The Chairman. If that concludes the hearing on this Georgia proposition- Senator Smith of Georgia. I am going to ask the committee later ’ on to have some revised estimates from the War Department. The Chairman. That is your own statement? Senator Smith of Georgia. No; as action for the committee, I am going to ask for some revised estimates from the War Department to bring it down to the figures I discussed. Senator Thomas. I would like to inquire what the status of affairs at the camp is pending this investigation. Is the work going on? Col. Wyllie. It is not going on. Senator McKellar. Nothing is being done at all? Col. Wyllie. Nothing is being done at all. The Chairman. There are two propositions which I think ought to be disposed of in some way. One is the matter of these contracts, and there is one witness here that Senator Brandegee would like for the Committee to hear. Senator Brandegee. Mr. Bobbins is here representing the Marlin Arms Co., of Connecticut. X 7s % I * - s * \ I t % l t \ « t i, .