American Folklife Center, Library of Congress Alan Lomax Collection (AFC 2004/004) folder 02.02.07 writings, books Rainbow Sign transcripts, Reverend Roe Reverend Roe. Reel 7. P. 1 [*His song and how he composed it*] There are signs in the sun That their Judgment have begun. Sun, moon and stars appear like never before, There is strange things [and]in the land Seem like [it didn't] men don't understand But we konw 'tis God's hand - [*chorus*] He's coming soon, Coming soon, He's coming soon, Although His coming may be morning, night or noon, Night or noon; Strange thing down here below [Til] Tell He's coming at your door So that all men may know He's coming soon. You Reads in Daniel, twelfth and four, See men running to and fro, Seeking knowledge as they pass [be]-long [away] the way But God's children who will obey, Who will [walk] watch, fight and pray, [Should all] Shall go home to live with Him. [So have faith in, have], Some happy day Coming soon, [*cho.*] They's coming soon. Although his coming it may be mroning,night or noon, Night or noon, Strange things down here below Will tell He8s coming at your door So that all men may know He's coming soon. When John picked up his Gospel pen, Wrote it, to[ld] the sons of men That the[ir] King would come in Judgment one of these days. Sinners, you may try to hide From the Lord you crucified, [You're gonna] But you must stand that day [in Hell] and hear Your awful Doom. [*cho*] He's coming soon, [?hn] He's coming soon. Although His coming may be morning, night, or noon, Night or noon, Strange things down here below Will tell He's coming at your door So that all men may know He's coming soon. A: Reverend, when did you compose that? R: Oh, that's been twenty, some twenty years ago. A: Beautiful song. How'd you come to compose it, do you remember the circumstances? R: Well, I don't just remember that, exactly, but I know generally I compose my songs at night. I'll be laying down, you know, and just thinking, you know, and my mind would get on it. The verses would just come Reverend Roe. Reel 7. P. 2 come to me, you know, that way. A: Where do the tunes come from? R: Wel, I'd make my tune (laughter). Yes sir. Just all come to me. A: What are the name of some of the other songs that you made? Do you remember any? R: I remember one of the [lyrics] late songs that I composed - "The Sinners Come and [Go, Sinners,] Come and Go Home with Me, For My home is in Galilee." Now let me see, I can't get that good now. Break It 'pends a deal upon the size of your church, you know. [AT's on about] I suppose that on this church here, [you know,] it costed me about three thousand dollars. [ * How much people in church are paid * ] A: That's on account of your own recompense? R: Yeah, yeah. A: Not just the physical expenses. R: For [Lydie, too,] literature, and [workmen] equipment and things like that. A: Well, isn't service in a church voluntary except that of a preacher? I mean, they're not paid? R: Well, the musician and the teacher, and the preacher, I mean to say, [are] is paid, and we give our secretaries, we don't [ ] pay them, but we give them a small salary, you know. A: Like, what would it be? R: Oh, we pay them by the month, four, five dollars a month. A: And the musician, the pianist, what would she get?? R: Well, we pay ours [share, that's] more, fifty dollars. A: That means she has to be pretty good. R: O, Yeah. A: And what's the normal salary for a minister? R: Well, it depends upon the church. My salary, here, [oh] is [ ], just my salary is fifty dollars a week, but I have a pastor's aid. A: What's that? R: A pastor's aid -- whatever they raise is for the pastor. Reverend Roe. Reel 7. P. 3 A: I suppose when you started out you made very much less money. R: Oh, sometime, I didn't get anything. A: Did you have to work in addition? [*minister's pay] R: Oh yeah, I had to work. Yes sir, I've, on Sunday night, maybe [get] a dollar and a half. And sometime I'd have to help pay the expense out of my pocket. A: Do most people in the community feel the minister is not [get] getting any benefit financially out of his work? R: No sir, and, you know, we have some people that feels like they owe the minister something and should do all they could for him, and then we have others that feels [that] like the minister ought to work just like they [did] do. Yes, it depends much upon, you know, his teaching, [and as] in his [you--] youth, A: Have you been able to accumulate any property during your life, Reverend, so that you're secure now, financially? R: I have some property [that I own] I have -- a home; I have some rent pro- perty, not very much. Then I have a small bank account. A: And that's a good thing for any man, I suppose. R: Oh yeah. A: Whether he's a preacher, or whether he isn't.. R: Sure every man ought to lay aside something for a rainy day. And then he don't know just when [he] we'll break down, you know, and he ought to try to put away something so [he] we wouldn't [have to] just be on charity, [I] when we can't preach [many] no longer. [*Owns his own house*] A: Is it here in Dallas that you own your home, or is that in Sherman? R: [In] It's in Sherman. A: That's where you'll go when you retire, that's where your people are. R: Yes, sir. I have one son, and he - [it's a] we will [possibility] possibily he'll live here. I'm thinking of helping him to buy him a home -- they don't Reverend Roe. Reel 7. P. 4 have a home yet. I have a home [for him up there] home up there but not here. [*His children and grandchildren*] A: How many children do you have, Reverend? R: I have three boys and one girl, and I have a good many grandchildren. Some greatgrandchildren. A: Some greatgrandchildren! R: Yes, sir. A: That must be a big satisfaction to you. R: Oh yeah, I have one grandson in the Army, and I seen in the paper here the other day where they was sending him somewhere 'cross the water to finish a course, and then he could become a teacher. A: Did you send them all through school? R: No, he's in the Army. A: How many of your children went to college? R: Three. A: Were these children all of this wife that you spoke of who was a school teacher in Oklahoma? R: Yes, sir. A: She was a better educated woman than, than-- R: Than I am. Yes sir. A: I suppose she must have been a great help to you R: Oh yeah. But I wasn't long catching up to her (laughter). Yes sir. I [can] could always learn fast. A: Would you care to tell me anything about how you met her, and-- [*His marriage*] R: Well I tell you, now I['ve] married this wife -- this is my second wife--my first wife didn't live more than a year and six months, [and] Then she [perished] past. Of course, after my first wife [perished] past, I was -- I had bought me a home, and I was a little older, you know, and [when] this woman I married, [I'd] had been a friend to my wife. And I hadn't thought about even courting, you know. I went out one night to a little [place] place to a little [of] ice-cream sociable; they was [plain tending the place] [Turning] a plate, you [know] Reverend Roe, Reel 7, P.5 A: What? R: [She was tending the plates,] They was turning a plate, you know, and they'd called one's name and if he didn't catch the plate, you know, before it stopped whirling, why then he'd have to [catch] kiss the girl, you know, (laughter), [and] or the girl would have to kiss him. This woman turned the plate and called me, and the plate fell [so] [I'd have to catch the plate.] I had to kiss her. And so we started to going together then after that, and we finally married. A: How long was that after that incident, the plate-turning? Was it months, or? R: Oh yes, I don't remember just how long, but it was a good while. We went together, [oh] O I guess, a year. A: And then she was with you during most of the rest of your life. [*Lives away from her*] R: [Goodness, yes] Ever since. She's still with me. [Well] Course, she's old; she don't get away from home, and I always have somebody there [til] and I go backwards and so forth [to] and stay with her. My oldest son is staying there with her now. And I go backwards and forth. Whenever she wants to see me, on any kind of business, [there's something] she always sends me a special, you know, or she always calls me on the phone, and I go. And very often we talk over my boy's phone, you know. A: How'd you happen to come to Dalls, Reverend? R: I was called to a church here. I was [passing] pastoring in Dennison, and I was also [busy with] tending a school over there, and this church here, [Grieg's] Grell's Chapel, they called me. So I been here ever since. A: How long ago was that? [His long stay in Dallas*] R: That was twenty-eight years ago, yes sir. A: And she stayed on to look after your property in Sherman. R: Well, of course, when I first came here, my children, you know was all at home, and I'd go backwards and forth every week. But I couldn't stay at home, you know, so long -- just a few days, [you know] in every week I'd go home, and I'd come back and tend to my work. Reverend Roe, Reel 7, P.6 And finally I built [a] the church up to where i had to give more of my time, [and] then I'd just get to go home every other week, you know. And then I finally moved the church to where it's located -- (end of reel) Reverend Roe. Reel 7. P. 1 There are signs in the sun That the Judgment have begun, Sun, moon and stars appear like never before There is strange things in the land Seem like [it didn't] men don't understand But we konw 'tis God's hand - He's coming soon, [*His song and how he composed it.*] [*Chor*] Coming soon, He's coming soon, Although His coming may be morning, night or noon, Night or noon; Strange thing down here below [Til] Tell He's coming at your door So that all men may know He's coming soon. You reads in Daniel, twelve and four, See men running to and fro, Seeking knowledge as they pass a-long [away] the way But God's children who will obey, Who will [walk] watch, fight and pray, [Should all] Shall go home to live with Him. [So have faith in, have] Some happy day, Coming soon, [*Cho*] They's coming soon Although His coming it may be morning, night or noon, Strange things down here below Will tell He's coming at your door So that all men may know He's coming soon. When John picked up his Gospel pen, Wrote it, to[ld] the sons of men That their King would come in Judgment one of these days. Sinners, you may try to hide From the Lord you crucified. [You're gonna] But you must sta[y]nd that day [in Hell] & hear Your awful Doom [*Cho*] He's coming soon, [unh-uhn], He's coming soon. Although His coming may be morning, night, or noon, Night or noon, Strange things down here below Will tell He's coming at your door So that all men may know He's coming soon. A: Reverend, when did you compose that? R: Oh, that's been twenty, some twenty years ago. A: Beautiful song. How'd you come to compose it, do you remember the circumstances? R: Well I don't just remember that, exactly, but I know generally I compose my songs at night. I'[d]ll be laying down, you know, and just thinking, you know, and my mind would get on it. The verses would just come Reverend Roe. Reel 7. P. 2 come to me, you know, that way. A: Where do the tunes come from? R: Well, I'd make my tune (laughter). Yes sir. Just all come to me. A: What are the name of some of the other songs that you made? Do you remember any? R: I remember one of the [lyrics] late songs that I composed - "The Sinners Come and [Go, Sinners] Come and Go Home with Me, For My Home is Galilee." Now let me see, I can't get that good now. [*Breaks*] It 'pends a deal upon the size of your church, you know. [? on about] I suppose that on this church here, [you know] it costs me about three thousand dollars. [*How would people in church are paid*] A: That's [on account] independent of your own recompense? R: Yeah, yeah. A: Not just the physical expenses. R: For [Lydia?] literature [?] and [workmen] equipment and things like that. A: Well, isn't service in a church voluntary except that of a preacher. I mean, they're not paid? R: Well, the musician and the teacher, and the preacher, I mean to say, [are] is paid, and we give our secretaries, we don't, say, pay them, but we give them a small salary, you know. A: Like, what would it be? R: Oh, we pay them by the month, four, five dollars a month, you know. A: And the musician, the pianist, what would she get? R: Well, we pay ours [share that's] here fifty dollars. A: That means she has to be pretty good. R: O yeah. A: And what's the normal salary for a minister? R: Well, it depends upon the church. My salary, here, [oh] is, oh, just my salary is fifty dollars a week, but I have a pastor's aid. A: What's that? R: A pastor's aid -- whatever they raise is for the pastor. Reverend Roe. Reel 7. P. 3 A: I suppose when you started out you made very much less money. R: Oh, sometime, I didn't get anything. [*Minister's pay*] A: Did you have to work in addition? R: Oh yeah, I had to work. Yes sir, I've, on Sunday night, maybe [got] a dollar and a half. And sometime I'd have to help pay the expense out of my pocket. A: Do most people in the community feel the minister is not [to get] getting any benefit financially out of his work? R: No sir, and, you know, we have some people that feels like they owe the minister something and should do all they could for him, and then we have others that feels like the minister out to work just like they [did] do. Yes, it depends much upon, you know, his teaching [and as] in his [you] youth. A: Have you been able to accumulate any property during your life, Reverend, so that you're secure [now] financially? R: I have some property [that I own] I have -- a home; I have some rent pro- perty, not very much. Then I have a small bank account. A: And that's a good thing for any man, I suppose. R: Oh yeah. A: Whether he's a preacher, or whether he isn't.. R: Sure, every man ought to lay aside something for a rainy day. And then [he] we don't know just when [h]we'll break down, you know, and he out to try to put away something so [h]we wouldn't [have to] just be on charity. [I] When we can't preach [many] no longer. [*Owns his own home*] A: is it here in Dallas that you own your home, or is that in Sherman? R: [In] It's in Sherman. A: That's where you'll go when you retire, that's where your people are. R: Yes, sir, I have one sone, and he [it's a] we will [possibility] possibly he'll live here. I'm thinking of helping him to buy him a home -- they don't Reverend Roe. Reel 7. P. 4 have a home yet. I have a home [for him up there] have up there but not here. [*His children and grandchildren*] A: How many children do you have, Reverend? R: I have three boys and one girl, and I have a goo many grandchildren. Some greatgrandchildren. A: Some greatgrandchildren! R: Yes, sir. A: That must be a big satisfaction to you. R: Oh yeah I have one grandson in the Army, and I seen in the paper here the other day where they was sending him somewhere across the water to finish a course, and then he [a] would become a teacher. A: Did you send them all through school? R: No, he's in the Army. A: How many of your children went to college? R: Three. A: Were these children all of this wife that you spoke of who was a school teacher in Oklahoma? R: Yes sir. A: She was a better educated woman than, than-- R: Than I am, yes sir. A: I suppose she must have been a great help to you R: Oh yeah. But I wasn't long catching up to her (laughter). Yes sir. I [can] could always learn fast. [*His marriage*] A: Would you care to tell me anything about how you met her, and-- R: Well I tell you, now I['ve] married this wife -- this is my second wife--my first wife didn't live more than a year and six months. [and] Then she [perished.] past. Of course, after my first wife [perished] past, I was -- I had bought me a home, and I was a little older, you know, and [when I] this woman married, [I'd] had been a friend to my wife. And I hadn't thought about even courting, you know. I went out one night to a little [place] play [to] [of] a little ice-cream, sociable; they was [plain tending the place.] turning a plate you [know]. Reverend Roe. Reel 7. P.5 A: What? R: [She was tending the plates] They was turning a plate, you know, and they'd called one's name and if he didn't catch the plate, you know, before it stopped whirling, why then he'd have to [catch] kiss the girl, you know, (laughter), [and] or the girl would have to kiss him. This woman turned the plate and called me, and the plate fell [so] [I'd have to catch the plate] and I had to kiss her. And so we started to going together then after that, and we finally married. A: How long was that after that incident, the plate-turning? Was it months, or? R: Oh yes, I don't remember just how long, but it was a good while. We went together, [ah] O I guess, a year. A: And then she was with you during mostof the rest of your life. [*Lives away from her*] R: [Goodness, yes], Ever since, She's still with me. {Well] Course she's old; she don't get away from home, and I always have somebody there [til] and I go backward and so forth [to] and stay with her. My oldest son is staying there with her now. And I go backwards andforth. Whenever she wants to see me, on any kind of a business, [there's something] she always sends me a, you know, or she always calls me on the phone, and I go. And very often we talk over my boy's phone, you know. A: How'd you happen to come to Dalls, Reverend? R: I was called to a church here. I was [passing] pasturing in Dennison, and I was also busy with] tending a school over there, and this church here, [Grieg's] Gregg's Chapel, they called me. So I been here ever since. [*His long stay in Dallas*] A: How long ago was that? R: That was twenty-eight years ago, yes sir. A: And she stayed on to look after your property in Sherman. R: Well, of course, when I first came here, my children you know, was all at home, and I'd go backwards and forth every week. But I couldn't stay at home, you know, so long -- just a few days [you know] in every week I'd go home, and I'd come back and tend to my work. Reverend Roe . Reel 7. P.6 And finally I built [a] the church up to where I had to give more of my time, [and] then I8d just get to go home every otherweek, you know. And then I finally moved the church to where it's located -- ( end of reel) Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P. 1 A: You under stand the problem, of course. R: Yes, I was just saying a preacher never gets to stay at home with his family. Therefore, loss of preacher's children, you know, they [*Preacher never gets to stay with his family.*] called bad because they don't have a father there regularly to correct them, and a mother never can [leave] raise boys alone. Now in my family I have three boys and two of my boys was with my wife; the other one was with me, And there's just so much difference in them. The preacher stayed with me all his life, after he come out of school, you know; he just stayed with me down here, and the other boys stayed with their mother. And I had a uncle you know, [down] there, and he kinda [ruin] ruint the baby boy. He never did finish in school. A: He was sort of a rebellious boy. [*Preacher's sons are rebellious*] R: Yes sir. He never mind[ed] nobody but me. He's always been afraid of me. And as long as he in my present, he just all right. But when he's out, why, he's just different. Yes, that's been a fact pretty well all of his life because I was never with him in his early childhood A: Well, that's a very tragic thing, isn't it? R: Oh yeah! Oh yeah! A: Is it like that with most preacher's families? R: Oh yeah, you hear lots of people say that a preacher's boys are bad. That's the reason: he's never with them. Yes sir. And a boy is not going to listen at [a] mother like he will [a] father. A: Why is that? R: Well, you know, a boy is not afraid of a woman, you know, like he'd be of a man, actually, so that his father, when he speaks to him, why, he reco- gnizes his father's authority and he will obey, but it's not so with a mother. [*Boys not afraid of their mother*] He can kind talk and get off, you know. And then mothers is not as strict on children as fathers. A: Was that true in your own family? With your own father and mother? R: Wel, no, not with my own father and mother. See we were farmers and they Reverend Roe. Reel8. P.2 were all at home pretty well all the time. And every day we'd be work- ing in the field, father would be looking over us. And when we was at [*Father ruled in his home.*] home, why, mother would be there. So it wasn't so with us[, we]. We had to obey[, and]. And if we disobeyed Mother, why, it [jat] just was too bad when Father found it out. We just had to do what Mother and Father said, and we didn't think of anything else. We didn't attempt to rebel against them. I never 'sputed my father's word; I never 'sputed my mother's word in my life. I was laways obedient. [and] I worked on til the day I was 21 years old. I worked for my father, and I generally would work [at] out at night by the moonshine. Sometimes [reading] split rails, [soeties] sometimes, [in cotton picking] time picking cotton, pick cotton and make money to get my clothes and things. A: And three was a big family of you there. [*12 in family*] R: Twelve in the family. A: Was it a happy time for you? Did you all have good times as well as work [well] hard? R: Well, we [wrked] worked most all the time. We'd have a big time on Saturday [*Saturday night was a big time*] evenings -- t]. They'd give us Saturday evenings. And sometime when we had laid by our crop, why, we'd have a spell there, you know, there between laying by and gathering time, we'd go fishing and swimming, and just have a big time. We'd enjoy that very much. A: What kind of parties did they have in our younger days? R: We just had [both] mostly the old-time dances, you know, square dance, and then we had we call ring plays, you know, They'd ring up and be singing, you know. A: Do you remember any of the[t] names of the games that you played in those ring plays? [*Games*] R: O Well, we played some of the same games that you play now, such as baseball [but] only it was different. A: No, I mean in ring plays. R: Oh, well, I've forgotten most [of them] of um--different kind of little old plays they'd ring up, you know. Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P. 3 and they'd sing, you know, and go round and around (laughter). Yes sir. [*Ring plays*] Then we had some little plays, you know, where a boy and a girl, you know, would carry it out, patting one another's hands, you know, [and all] and ring all. Yes, and different plays. Quite in different to the plays they have now. But they'd always have somebody, you know, could sing good, and they'd be skipping, you know, and going round and around, something like you see children now do on the school-ground. And I used to, [while] well I was [raiding] reared in the white settlement, and I'd [been] be a deal with the white folks, white boys and girls. And I could sing those plays so well until they'd always come after me when they's having a ring play, you know. They'd always come for me to sing for em. I'd just go and have a big time. A: Did they have the ones that the colored people did? R: [oh yes, yes sir] The same ones. A: Skip to My Lou? R: Yeah (laughter). Yes sir. So many different--I've forgotten lots of them, you know, but I remember that all right. A: Did your folks think those things were sinful, or were they all right? R: Oh no, they just innocent plays. A: They weren't considered the same as square dances. R: Oh no. A: Was it felt that dancing was wrong? [*Churched for dancing*] R: Well, yes sir. You see when I was a boy, if you belonged to church and danced, they'd turn you out. Yes sir, they'd turn you out of church for dancing. But they didn't, bother us about ring play. A: What do you think about that, Reverend? Do you think it's right that the church members shouldn't dance? R: Well, no, they shouldn't dance. I don't say it's really a sin just [to] the dancing, but there is so many temptations, you know. Now, you know, Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P. 4 [*Dancing is sinful because it tempts a man*] if a man don't kinda lock up with a woman, he don't enjoy his dancing much, and over there in the Corinthians, [( ?)] 1st Corin. 7th chapter, [end of] the first verse says it's good for a man not to touch a woman, and you know what that do. Yeah. [And] When you get to fooling around with a woman, [why] that [makes you] [ ? ] begin to rise, and it's not only in you but it's in her, too, and something wrong would take place. So dancing is not the best thing. Oh, if the men set out there and want to dance with one another, whythat and the women with one another might be (laughter), but you mix [the] those sex up together, it's not good. A: A person wouldn't be turned out of your church if they went to a dance now, would they, not today? R: Well, we call them and question them about it. If they went to a dance and we knew it, they would have to come acknowledge, beg pardon. [*Sinful pleasures*] A: And what other things would you call them [and] in question about, Reverend? R: Drinking, visiting beer taverns, and things like that, you know. We think it's wrong for our members to indulge in sinful pleasure. And yet we would advise them, you know, to go to anything tht was up- lifting, you know, helpful. A: Movies? R: Well, some movies is all right, and some is bad. A: That's up to the judgement of the individual, though, more. R: Yes sir. And there's some movies, why, I advise my folks not to go to, and they generally hear me pretty well. A: For instance, like what movies, Reverend? R: Oh well, now such as [D]esperadoes, you know, where [there] they shooting and fighting and -- you see, that stuff gets in your boy and in the girl too, now, and they come out, they want to try some of those things. Robbing, you know, things like that. That's not [god] good; in fact, chil- dren should never go to a thing like that. And [us] they's lots of us old folks ought to stay away from it (a Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P. 5 [* There's bad influence.*] stay away from it (laughter). You see, we learned a lot of bad things [while] by looking at things. When you begin to watch a thing, some of that get in you. Pastoring a church I've always had peace and harmony generally. Some friction, of course, comes up in a church, but yet I've always used God's words to settle the differences. A: What friction? Give me an example of what you mean by that. R: Oh well, there is someone that will oppose the things the pastor wants to do. They don't see no need of it. And they begin to talk it around amongst the members, and they get others to see like they see, you know, and bring about trouble. A: Can you remember an incident of that kind? [*Friction in the church*] R: I remember right here. When we began here, of course, the church was very small, and we had to use fuel here - we didn't have gas - we had to use fuel. And when we began, we wasn't able to prepare a place to keep it, and I used one of the little rooms back there to put our fuel in. Well, as the church began to grow, I said we needed a house out there for the fuel. And they said we didn't need it. They said, "No, we didn't need it. That place was good enough." But we had, you know, a little [preaching over when] friction on it but I had the house built. A: Did the other person get mad and leave the church? R: No, no, he's here now. That's one in there, one of them (laughter). And I had the house built and the stuff put in, and it pleased every- body so well after it was done until he [ordered] wanted some[one to] of the praise for it [(dead?)] doing it. (laughter) There are so many things, you know. Some men just wants to rule, wants everybody to sit down, as the head of everything, you know. A: But the preacher has got to be the -- R: Has got to be the head. Yes sir, he [has] have to be or there'll be no success. A layman can't lead a church. You've never seed one do it. Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P. 6 When you get without a preacher, the next thing is you must get a preacher. [Maybe, you know] You may be able to have ministers come in and do the preaching and get along for a while, but not long. You've got to [*Preacher must rule the church.*] have a preacher. The Lord so fixed it. He put the preacher here before the church was fully organized. He prepared the preacher, and then He turned the church over into the hands of the minister. [That he did] Where he left for us to carry on. and that's God's plan, and no other plan will ever work well in God's [choice] church saving his's. Therefore, no man will ever be able to lead the Church of God but a God-called minister. They might knock along for a while, and [?] preachers come [now] in and out and preach, and in a way, he is kinda leading [them] it there because without a preacher you [wouldn't] won't have [no] any congregation. It takes a minister, matter not whether he can preach well or not. They just can't do without one. Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P.1 A: You understand the problem, of course. R: Yes, I was just saying a preacher never gets to stay at home with his family. Therefore, lots of preacher's children, you know, they [Preacher never gets to stay with his family.] [go] called bad because they don't have a father there regularly to correct them, and a mother can never [leave] raise boys alone. Now in my family I have three boys and two of my boys was with my wife; the other one was with me. And there's just so much difference in them. The preacher stayed with me all his life, after he come out of school, you know, he just stayed with me down here, and the other boys stayed with their mother. And I had a uncle, you know, [down] there, and he kinda [run] ruint the baby boy. He never did finish in school. A: He was sort of a rebllious boy. [*Preacher's sons are rebellious*] R: Yes sir. He never mind[ed[ nobody but me. He's always been afraid of me. And as long as he in my present, he just all right. But when he's out, why, he's just different. Yes, that's been a fact pretty well all of his life because I was never with him in his early childhood. A: Well, that's a very tragic thing, isn't it? R: Oh yeah! Oh yeah! A: Is it like that with most preachers' families? R: Oh yeah, you hear lots of people say that a preachers' boys are bad. That's the reason: he's never with them. Yes sir. And a boy is not going to listen at [a] mother like he will [a] father. A: Why is that? R: Well, you know, a boy is not afraid of a woman, you know, like he'd [Boys not afraid of their mother*] be of a man, naturally, so that his father, when he speaks to him, why, he recog- nizes his father's authority and he will obey[s], but it's not so with mother. He can kinda talk and get off, you know. And then mothers is not as strict on children as fathers. A: Was that true in your own family? With your own father and mother? R: Wel, no, not with my father and mother. See, were farmers and they Reverend Roe. Reel8. P.2 were all at home pretty well all the time. And every day we'd be work- ing in the field, father would be looking over us. And when we was at [*Father ruled in his home*] home, why, mother would be there. So it wasn't so with us. We had to obey, And if we disobeyed Mother, why, it just was too bad when Father found it out. We just had to do what Mother and Father said, and we didn't think of anything else. We didn't attempt to rebel against them. I never 'sputed my father's word. I never 'sputed my mouther's word in my life. I was always obedient. [and] I worked on til the day I was 21 years old. I worked for my father, and I generally would work [at] out at night by the moonshine. Sometimes [reading] split rails, some[times] in [cotton picking] time picking cotton, pick cotton and make money to get my clothes and things. [*12 in Family*] A: And there was a big family of you there. R: Twelve in the family. A: Was it a happy time for you? Did you all have good times as well as work [well] hard? [*Saturday night was a big time*] R: Well, we worked most all the time. We'd have a big time on Saturday evenings. They'd give us Saturday evenings. And sometime when we had laid by our crop, why, we'd have a spell there, you know, there between laying by and gathering time, we'd go fishing and swimming, and just have a big time. We'd enjoy that very much. A: What kind of parties did they have in our younger days? R: We just had [both] mostly the old-time dances, you know, square dance, and then we had we call ring plays, you know they'd ring up and be singing, you know. A: Do you remember any other names of the games that you played in those ring plays? [*Games*] R: O well, we played some of the same games that you play now, such as baseball [but] only it was different. A: No, I mean in ring plays. R: Oh, well, I've forgotten most [of them] of um -- different kind of little old plays they'd ring up, you know. Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P.3 and they'd sing, you know, and go round and around (laughter). Yes sir. [*Ring plays*] Then we had some little plays, you know, where a boy and a girl, you know, would carry it out, patting one another's hands, you know, and [all] going on. Yes, and different plays. Quite in different to the plays they have now. But they'd always have some body, you know, could sing good, and they'd be skipping, you know, and going round and around, something like you see children now do on the school-ground. And I used to, [while] well I was (raiding?) reared in the white settlement, and I'd [been] be a deal with the white folks, white boys and girls. And I could sing those plays so well until they'd always come after me when they's having a ring play, you know. They'd always come for me to sing for em. I'd just go and have a big time. A: Did they have the ones that the colored people did? R: [Oh yes, yes sir.] The same ones. A: Skip to My Lou? R: Yeah (laughter), Yes sir. So many different -- I've forgotten lots of them, you know, but I remember that all right. A: Did your folks think those things were sinful, or were they all right? R: Oh no, they just innocent plays. A: They weren't considered the same as square dances. R: Oh no. A: Was it felt that dancing was wrong? [*Churched for dancing*] R: Well, yes sir. You see when I was a boy, if you belonged to church and danced, they'd turn you out. Yes sir, they'd turn you out of church for dancing. But they didn't bother us about ring play. A: What do you think about that, Reverend? Do you think it's right that the church member shouldn't dance? R: Well, no, they shouldn't dance. I don't say it's really a sin just the [to] dancing, but there is so many temptations, you know. Now, you know, Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P. 4 [*Dancing is sinful because it tempts a man.*] if a man don't kinda lock up with a woman, he don't enjoy his dancing much, and over there in the Corinthians, 1st Corin. 7th [( ?)] chapter, [end of] the first verse says it's good for a man not to touch a woman, and you know what that do. Yeah, when you get to fooling around with a woman, why that [makes you] nature begin to rise, and it's not only in you but it's in her, too, and something wrong would take place. So dancing is not the best thing. Oh, if the men get out there and want to dance with one another, why that and the women with one another might be (laughter), but you mix [the] those sex up together, it's not good. A: A person wouldn't be turned out of your church if they went to a dance now, would they, not today? R: Well, we call them and question them about it. If they went to a [*Sinful pleasures*] dance and we knew it, they would have to come acknowledge, beg pardon. A: And what other things would you call them [and] in question about, Rev- erend? R: Drinking. Visiting beer taverns, and things like that, you know. We think it's wrong for our members to indulge in sinful pleasures. And yet we would advise them, you know, to go to anything that was up- lifting, you know, helpful. A: Movies? R: Well, some movies is all night, and some is bad. A: That's up to the judgement of the individual, though, more. R: Yes sir. And there's some movies, why, I advise my folks not to go to, and they generally hear me pretty well. A: For instance, like what movies, Reverend? R: Oh well, such as Desperados, you know, where they shooting and fighting and--you see, that stuff gets in your boy and in the girl too, now, and they come out, they want to try some of those things. Robbing, you know, things like that. That's not good. In fact chil- dren should never go to a thing like that. And [us] they's lot of old folks ought to [stay away from it] Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P. 5 stay away from it (laughter). You see, we learned a lot of bad things [while] by looking at things. When you begin to watch a thing, some of that get in you. [*Movies bad influence.*] Pastoring a church I've always had peace and harmony, generally. Some friction, of course, comes up in a church, but yet I've always used God's word to settle the differences. A: What friction? Give me an example of what you mean by that. R: Oh well, there is someone that will oppose the things the pastor wants to do. They don't see no need of it. And they begin to talk it around amongst the members, and they get others to see like they see, you know, and bring about trouble. A: Can you remember an incident of that kind? [*Friction in the church*] R: I remember right here. When we began here, of course, the church was very small, and we had to use fuel here - we didn't have gas - we had to use fuel. And when we began, we wasn't able to prepare a place to keep it, and I used one of the little rooms back there to put our fuel in. Well, as the church began to grow, I said we needed a house out there for the fuel. And they said we didn't need it. They said, "No, we didn't need it. That place was good enough." But we had, you know, a little [preaching over when] friction on it but I had the house built. A: Did the other person get made and leave the church? R: No, no, he's here now. That's one in there, one of them (laughter). And I had the house built and the stuff put in and it pleased every- boyd so well after it was done until he [ordered] wanted some [one to] of the praise [(dead?) (laughter)] for doing it. There are so many things, you know. Some men just wants to rule. Wants everybody to sit down, as the head of everything, you know. A: But the preacher has got to be the -- R: Has got to be the head. Yes sir, he have to be or there'll be no success. A layman can't lead a church. You've never seed one do it. Reverend Roe. Reel 8. P. 6 When you get without a preacher, the next thing is you must get a preacher. [Maybe you know] You may be able to have ministers come in and do the [*Preacher must rule the church*] preaching and get along for a while, but not long. You've got to have a preacher. The Lord so fixed it. He put the preacher here before the church was fully organized. He prepared the preacher, and then He turned the church over into the hands of the minister. [That He did] When he left for us to carry on. And that's God's plan, and no other plan will ever work well in God's [choice] church saving his['s]. Therefore, no man will ever be able to lead the Church of God but a God-called minister. They might know along for a while, and get preachers come [now] in and out and preach, and in a way, he is kinda leading [them] it then because without a preacher you [wouldn't] wont have any congregation. It takes a minister, matter not whether he can preach well or not. They just can't do without one. Reverend Roe. Reel 9. P. 1 Others just lives a sinful life. [*Different types of preachers*] You know, [he] it's said that we have some college called preachers, some church-called preachers, and some God-called preachers. [Therefore] Say for an instance, a man goes to college, and he thinks that preaching is a fine occupation, and he just goes a-preaching. Another fellow can singand pray well in the church and folks begin to tell him, you know, "Man, you ought to preach. [They's all] I believe the Lord call you to preach," and finally he decides [to preach and] to do so he goes a-preaching, but they never succeed. But when God calls a preacher, generally it's a man that don't really want to go. Now when I began preaching -- I had felt before, you know, that I was called to preach, but I just didn't want to preach. And I was in Aida, Oklahoma, and I don't know why, but it just come down on me, [*Evidence that God had worked him for the ministry.*] all at once, and I just couldn't rest. I left Aida and went to Oklahoma City, and when I went to the train, the station, to buy my ticket the fellow said to me, "Preacher, where are you going?" I said, "Oh, I'm just going over to Oklahoma City." When I got on, the porter spoke to me, said, "Preacher, ya going on?" And finally the conductor come along, and he called me Preacher. I went on to Oklahoma City, and I was a stranger there. When I got on off the train, I seen a colored man and a white man talking, and I meant to ask him about a place where I could find me a room, and when I got to them, they was talking on the Scriptures and [lets me in] They ask me in. And I began talking and [then] I seems to have interested them so until they both just hushed and let me have it. And when I had finished, the white fellow said to me, "I want you to go out with me Sunday." He says, "I have a lot of colored people out there where I'm preaching, and they told me when I found a man that was preaching the truth for me to bring him out there." And I says, "Well, I'm not a preacher." He says, "Well, you're a Jonah, then." Reverend Roe. Reel 9. P. 2 A: What? R: Jonah. A: What does that mean? R: You know that Jonah was the one that God sent to Nineveh, and he tried to run away, keep from going. You read the story, haven't you? Well he said I was a Jonah. Well I, I -- it worried me so til I left there and went in the country out near Paul's Valley, out to a little country town. And I promised the Lord just if He'd just let me get settled out somewhere that I'd go to preaching. And I stopped in there, and that was the time I made a crop and my wife taught school. Well, so I began preaching, but the lord called me to preach because there was something outside of myself and it wasn't mean and it wasn't school that just pushed me on, that just whilred me, and I justhad it to do. I began preaching there and there on, I had a success; in itself helped more than what I could say. There's a whole lot in your daily life, and if you a Christian, there'll be some things you can't do. If you [tried] try it, something will check you. A: But even a preacher can have, can sin like other men, can't he? [*Preachers are tempted*] R: Oh yeah, he fall sometime, but he's not gonna lay [down all] there [lay?] if he's a god-sent man, brother, he'll get up. Yes sir, and then another thing he'll acknowledge it and quit it. A: What are the temptations that a preacher is most liable to? R: Well, I'll tell you the truth: the greatest temptation to any male in the world is women - that's our greatest temptation because that's [on the] out of habit, it's nature. And there's so many of us that won't abide by the laws of nature. [--when] We see something, that we just went to break over anyway, and most of [em] um will sometime. That's the truth. Of course, there is men that just don't want [anything of it] to acknowledge it, Reverend Roe. Reel 9. P. 3 but if it's truth, you just better said so. [Of course, with them, you] Because whatever is done, [know, it's done] you know [it's] it just coming to [life] light. A: Of course, ministers are particularly sorry afterwards about women, for spiritual reasons, and so the temptation is-- R: Yes, we hates it; we don't want to yield to those temptations, but being in contact all the time, and there is some women that you'll meet in your life, that you can't hardly stand,[that] you have to keep away from em; just have to avoid them some way or other. It's hard, and I think, as a man, you know that yourself. Well, it's natural with the preacher just like it is with you. And now the only difference might be, he wouldn't yield [like] maybe as quick as you would. But most every man that's living has a [preaching] breaking point. Therefore, we got to be very careful. A: Would you say that women are more interested in preachers than [they are in other] ordinary men? [*Women interested in preachers*] R: [I would say so;] Mostly so, yes, sir, they are. And I've noticed this: you can go to a place and run a successful [about] a revival [in which]. You preach well and satisfy the people well, there'll be some women, more than one, generally [that'll] will try to tempt you, and you have to be pretty strong. Generally you may be away from home for weeks conducting revival, and at a time like that, if you ain't mighty careful, you may fall. It's a temptation, and hard [for a man] to bear sometime. A: That would be may be some of the women of the church. R: Generally so, yes sir, generally so. And they offer you some temptation at times and it's hard to say for instance for a woman will go to work and put on some kind of a project and raise you some money, maybe buy you a nice [set] suit of clothes, dress you up, and everything like that, and then after she did so much for you, why then, she kinda in a way offers herself to you, and she's been so good to you, you got to be mighty strong now to hold. If you don't mind things will snap. Reverend Roe. Reel 9. P. 4 A: And of course you also have to be worried that she's gonna turn against you. R: That's right. A: Turn some of the people against you -- tell [wives] lies on you. R: That's right. A: Women will do that, they sorta get so insulted at you when you turn them down, they're liable to do almost anything. [*Women will work against you if you turn them down.*] R: Oh yeah. I had them to do me that way. Yes sir. They [said] say that I tried to rape them [al l] all most and things like that. But you've got to stand up; there's some danger in it. To do right, brother, you must [put] bear on some hard[ness]ship; you've got it to do. Sometimes you'll have to run away and leave a place, yeah, just because you won't do wrong. Some ofmy worst prosecutions come that way. Say, for an instance, you're in a church and there's a woman there that wants you to lay around with her, and you refuse to do it, and finally she'll turn against you and accuse you of every woman she sees you talking with and just talk about you. And generally it's a woman that has some influence in the church, and she'll turn lots of people same time against you. It's kinda hard; [it] and it makes some [men] ministers to fall, and make up with her and [get along] go to [? ]with her to [make] for her to hush, yes sir. A: Has any of those women actually prevailed against you and helped to drive you out of a congregation? R: They did it right here, oh yeah. The worst fight I've ever had here was just along that line. A: Tell me about it. R: Well, there's a woman that she wanted me to lay up there with her, [*A woman accuses him to the church*] and I refused to do it, and because I wouldn't, you know, she [was] began [gonna] to get mad with me, you know, and she would watch my huse and every woman she'd see go in there, she'd accuse me of em, you know. And there's a girl that live right here close to this church -- she have two children now. Reverend Roe. Reel 9. P. 5. And they said the first child were mine, and the just carried it around, [you know.] here until lots of people just believed it; my deacons all believed it. They went to her, and asked and she said, "Why, he never had anything to do with me." And they had no proof [or nothing] and, of course, and they couldn't do anything about it and finally the child was born, and when the child was born, why, it was so unlike myself un-til they just couldn't say any more, and it all just died. And now she's one of the best workers in the church. A: Did you have to come up and discuss it in public in meetings? [In other words] You never were accused in public actually in the church. [*another accusation*] R: Well, yes, yes, I was. it got so here one time til I had to have a meeting, and I had the meeting and I just had [the] a deacon[s] to set as the moderator. And I told the church, "Now I want every one of you in here to be honest, [and] if you ever knowed anything wrong about me [any more] and any woman I want you to come up and tell it." They just sit there; didn't nobody said a word because [it wasn't anything] they didn't know anything, and finally it was a man - he's here now - he stood up. "Yeah?" I asked him what. And he said, "Well, I just wanted to say that this woman that the pastor been accused of," he says, "I've been going with her myself, and at the times when they said the pastor was with this woman, I was with her myself, and I know that the thing they [said] say is not true." A: Well, did that cause this woman to be driven out of the church? R: No sir, she stayed right here and worked, and she's here now, one of the best workers. A: But wouldn't she be accused in the church of having sinned, if she had the child without being married? R: Shemarried the man after she'd gotten that way, you know, she married the man [done] and the another child by her. She got two children now by the man and then he left and went to California, and he didn't provide for her and didn't care for her [the way ] as he should have and so she divorced him not more Reverend Roe, Reel 9. P. 6 than two months ago. And the other day as I was coming down the strret I seen him, he['d] had come back here. And I met her this morning,she said he spoke to her, but they're divorced now. A: Looks like they re gonna get back together. R: No, she says never any more because she tried him and he just won't do right. You see, when she got in [the] family way, why he just went around with other women, just stayed away from home . She was down there sick and he wouldn't even get a doc-tor for her, and even didn't stay or pay her bill at all. And so she just quit him and got a divorce. Revereend Roe. Reel 9. P. 1 Other's just lives a sinful life. Yo know, [He] its said that we have some college called preachers, some [*Different types of preachers*] church-called preachers, and some God-called preachers. Say for instance, a man goes to college, and he thinks that preaching is a fine occupation, and he just goes a-preaching. Another fellow can sing and pray well in the church and folks begin to tell him, you know, "Man, you ought to preach. [They's all] I believe the lord call you to preach," and finally he decides [to preach and] to do so he goes a-preaching, but they never succeed. But when God calls a preacher, generally, it's a man that don't really want to go. Now when I began preaching -- I had felt before, you know, that I was called to preach, but I just didn't want to preach. And I was [*Evidence that God had marked him for the Ministry*] in Aida, Oklahoma, and I don't know why, but it just come down on me, all at once, and I just couldn't rest. I left Aida and went to Okla- homa City, and when I went to the train, the station, to buy my ticket the fellow said to me, "Preacher, where are you going?" I said, "Oh, I'm just going over to Oklahoma City." When I got on, the porter spoke to me, said, "Preacher, you going [on] off?" And finally the conductor come along, and he called me Preacher. I went to Oklahoma City, and I was a stranger there. When I got on off the train, I seen a colored man and a white man talking, and I went to ask him about a place where I could find me a room, and when I got to them, they was talking on the Scriptures and [lets me in] they ask me in. And I began talking and [then] it seems to have interested them so until they both just hushed and let me have it And when I had finished, the white fellow said to me, "I want you to go out with me Sunday." He says, "I have a lot of colored people out there where I'm preaching, and they told me when I found a man that was preaching the truth for me to bring him out there" And I says, "Well, I'm not a preacher," He says, "Wel you're a Jonah, then." Reverend Roe. Reel 9 P. 2 A: What? R: Jonah. A: What does that mean? R: You know that Jonah was the one tht God send to Ninevah, and he tried to run away, keep from going. You read the story, haven't you? Well he said I was a Jonah. Wel l, I -- it worried me so til I left there and went in the country out near Paul's Valley, out to a little country town. And I promised the Lord just if He'd just let me get settled somewhere that I'd go to preaching. And i stopped in there, and that was the time I made a crop and my wife taught school. Well, so I began preaching, bu the Lord called me to preach because there was something outside of myself and it wasn't me and it wasn't school that just pushed me on, that just whilred me, and I just had it to do. I began preaching there and [?] there on, I had a success; I wasn't no great preacher, but I tried to live a Christian, and that in itself helped more than what I could say. There's a whole lot in you daily life, and if you a Christian, there'll be some things you can't do. if you try, something will check you. A: But even a preacher can have, can sin like other men, can't he? R: Oh yeah [*preachers are tempted], he fall sometime, but he's not gonna lay [down all] there [?] if he's a god-sent man, brother, he'll get up. yes sir, and then another thing, he'll acknowledge it and quit it. A: What are the temptations that a preacher is most liable to? R: Well, I'll tell you the truth: the greatest temptation to any male in the world is women. that's our greates temptation-because that's [on who] what a habit it's nature. And there's so many of us that won't abide by the laws of nature, [when we] see something, that we just want to break over anyway, and most of us will sometime. That's the truth. Of course, there is men that just don't want [anything of it] to acknowledge it Reverebd Roe. "eel 9. P.3 but if it's truth, you just better say so. [Of course, with them, you know] Because whatever is done,[know, it's done] you know it['s] just coming to [life] light. A: Of course, ministers are particularly sorry afterwards about women, for spiritual reasons, and so the temptation is -- R: Yes, we hates it; we don't want to yeild to those temptations, but being in contact all the time, and there is some women that you'll meet in your life, that you can't hardly stand, [that] you have to keep away from em; [you] just have to avoid them some way or other. It's hard, and I think, as a man, you know that yourself. Well, it's natural with the preacher just like it is with you. And now the only difference might be, he wouldn't yield [like] maybe as quick as you would. But most every man that's living has a [preaching] breaking point. Therefore, we got to be very careful. A: Would you say that women are more interested in preachers than [*Women interested in preachers?*] they are in [other] ordinary men? R: [I would say so] Mostly so; yes, sir, they are. And I've noticed this: you can go to a place and run a [succession] successful [about] a revival [in which] You preach well and satisfy the people well, there'll be some women more than one, generally [that'll] will try to tempt you, and you have to be pretty strong. Generally you may be away from home for weeks conducting revival, and at a time like that, if you ain't mighty careful, you [may]'ll fall. It's a temptation, and hard [for a man] to bear sometime. A: That would be may be some of [them?] leading women of the church. R: Generally so, yes sir, generally so. And they offer you some temptation, at times and it's hard say for instance for a women will go to work and put on some kind of a project and raise you some money, maybe buy you a nice [set] suit of clothes, dress you up, and everything like that, and when after she did some much for you, why then, she kinda in a way offers herself to you, and she's been so good to you, you got to be mighty strong now to hold. If you don't mind things will snap. Reverend Roe. Ree l 9. P.4 A: And of course you also have to be worried that she's gonna turn against you. R: That's right. A: Turn some of the people against you -- tell [wives] lies on you. R: That's right. A: Women wil do that, they sorta get so insulted at you when you turn them down, they're liable to do almost anything. R: Oh yeah, I had them to do me that way. Yes sir, They [said] say that I tried to rape them [al l] all most, and things like that. But you've got to [*Women will work against you if you turn them down.*] stand up; there's some danger in it. To do right, brother, you must [put] bear on so me hard[ness]ship; you've got it to do. Someties you'll have to run away and leave a place, yeah, just because you won't do wrong. Some of my worst prosecutions come that way. Say, for an instance, you're in a church and there's a woman there that wants you to lay around with her, and you refuse to do it, and finally she'll turn against you and 'll ac- cuse you of every woman she see you talking with and just talk about you. And generally it's a woman that has some influence in the church; and she'll turn lots of people sometime against you. It's kinda hard; [it] and it makes some [men] ministers to fall, and make up with her and [get along]go to [going?] with her to [make] get her to hush, yes sir. A: Has any of those women actually prevailed against you [and] actually helped to drive you out of a congregation. R: They did it right here, oh yeah. The worst fight [I ever] I've had here was just along that line. A: Tell me about it. [*A woman accuses him to the church*] R: Well, there's a women that she wanted me to lay up there with her, and I refused to do it, and because I wouldn't, you know, she [was] began [gonna] to get mad with me, you know, and she would watch my huse and every woman she'd see go in there, she'd accuse me of em, you know. And there's a girl that live right here close to this church -- she have two chil- dren now R everend Roe. Reel 9. P. 5. and they said the first child were mine, and they just carried it around, [you know] here until lots of people just believed it; my deacons all believed it. They went to her, and asked and said, "Why, he never had any- thing to do with me." And they had no proof [or nothing] and, of course, and they couldn't do anything about it and finally the chil d was born, and when the child was born, why, it was so unlike myself un- til they just couldn't say any more, and it all just died. And now she's one of the best workers in this in this church. A: Did you have to come up and discuss it in public in meetings? [In other words,] You never were accused in public actually in the church. R: Well, yes, yes, I was. It got so here one time til I had to have [*Another accusation*] a meeting, and I had the meeting and I just had [the] a deacon to set as the moderator and I told the church, "Now I want every one of you in here to be honest, [and] if you ever knowed anything wrong about me [any more] and any woman I want you to come up and tell it." They just sit there; didn't nobody said a word because [it wasn't anything,] they didn't know anything and finally it was a man- he's here now- he stood up. "Yeah?" I asked him what. And he said, "Well, I just wanted to say that this woman that the pastor been accused of," [he] says,"I've been going with her myself, and at the times when they said the pastor was with this woman, I was with her myself, and I know that the thing they [said] saying is not true." A: Well, did that cause this woman to be driven out of the church? R: No sir she stayed right here and worked, and she's here now, one of the best workers. A: But wouldn't she be accused in the church of having sinned if she had the child with- out being married? R: Shemarried the man after she'd gotten that way, you know, she married the man [done] and the man got another child by her. She got two children now by the man and then he left and went to California, and he didn't provide for her and didn't care for her, [the way] as he should [so] have and she divorced him not more Reverend Roe. Reel 9. P. 6 than two months ago. And the other day as I was coming down the strret I seen him, he['d] had come back here. And I met her this morning,she said he spoke to her, but they're divorced now. A: Looks like they're gonna get back together. R: No, she says never any more because she tried him and he just won't do right. You see, when she got in [the] family way, why he just went [around] on with other women, just stayed away from home . She was down down sick here and he wouldn't even get a doc- tor for her, and even didn't stay or pay her bill at all. And so she just quit him and got a divorced. Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 1 A: You say you can't use a wh at? R: [A unkyer-see] An anxious seat, a mourner's bench like you used to . If ypu call a sinner, if he come to your service, and you call him up there tonight why he won't be back; he say you bothering him. You've just got to preach to him on that bench, and if you can't win him that way, why, you just lost him. And if you try to bring [*Don't use mourner's bench*] him up there, why, he just goes off and don't come back. So we decided it would be best for us to let him kinda 'tend the church, and we preach to him [when] let him he sit back there in the back, just so's we can get the message over to him and we find that we've been more successful that way than we have in using the mourner's bench, [the reason is] in recent years. And then anotherway that we're [hampered] hindered in our environment when sinners comes to or revival, you know, from the home of members [that] who belong to other denominations, why, they're afraid that we might convert them to our denominations so they fight us and try to keep them from coming [in] teach them not to come, teach them that we are wrong [in] and teaching the wrong doctrine and things like that. So we find that in that way the denomination is harm--, very harmful [with] when people lose sight of Christ and just see his denomination. A: Do you think it would be better if there weren't any denominations, Reverend? [*Diffs. between denominations are foolish.*] R: I'm sure it would. Yessir. A: Do you think that the points that they difference on are not very important? R: Not very imporant for the most of them. They's some of them is just out- right ridiculous but some of them, they're so near together till there ain't anything that would make them differ[ent] but prejdice . One wants the crowd and [is] he's afraid the other [will] 'll get it. A: Do you believe in preaching Hell-fire these days as much as you used to? R: I do. I believe the Gospel is the same and 'll always be. As long as we find in the Bible a Hell and a Heaven, it ought to be preached [according] because Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 2 [as] There is a Hell and a Heaven. [*Hell should be preached.*] A: Do you believe in scaring the sinner and making him -- R: Well, I believe this : that the fear of punishment and the hope of reward have more effect on human conduct than anything else, and when you offer him the reward [from] through Christ and show him the punishement unless he accepts Christ, why, I think that constrains him. A: Do you look on the Devil as a real person that walks the world? R: I do, [Iswear it] a spirit. I look on the Devil as a person and I believe he gets in people just like the Holy Spirit, the weaker spirits gets in people just like they did when Christ was here, and they must be casted out before He can ever be a good man or good woman. A: Do you believe in, that people have actually seen the Devil with their own two eyes? [*Devil*] R: Well, I don't think that he's a visible - [in] he's spirit, [still] the devil the spirit. There's no man, I don't believe, has ever just seen the Devil with their own two eye, [nor] they never have they seen God. But God have been a [view] revealed to us through Jesus Christ, and the Devil have never been because he'd have scared us all to death in the world if he ever hada been. A: I guess you've realy seen people that were possessed of the Devil and you couldn't reach them in revivals. R: Oh yes. Make em mad, they's get mad, you talk to them about reli- gion. [You] It's just a Devil gets in you when the Devil possesses you, why, you just as bad as you can be. Yeah. It's nothing but the Devil that makes men do evil, and men can get possessed with devils and become robbers, just become anything that's bad. And the only way that that man will ever be converted, the Devil have to be casted out of him. A: Well, Reverend, the way that your people have to live right here in Dallas, right here inthis town now know you were talking about how things were in Louisiana, how about the way they['d] have to live right here in Dallas? Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 3 And the conditions they have to live in? Doesn't that make them susceptible to the Devil's -- [*Trust in God and your difficulties will disappear.*] R: Well, it's some [of them,] they do. There is some people that bad treat- ments drive them nearer to God, and some it drives them the other way. Because we [as] who are good Christians believe that the best thing we can do is to hold our peace and let God fight our battle. And then we believe that if all of the people of our race would turn to God and trust him and cease to fight, I believe that God would bring things to pass. And I think [that] the greatest failing [?] in humanity is the very fact that he will just not trust in God; he get him a gun; he wants to fight; he wants to destroy his enemy. A: Well, what [is] about the old saying that God helps him who helps himself? R: Well, that's so too, in a spiritual way, that's so. You want to help yourself, and I believe whatever we do we ought to try to do it law- fully. A: Even if the other side uses unlwful methods. R: [Sure, sure.] Sho, sho. And, of course, we as colored folks know that the white [*White folks justice*] folks have the law. If we go to the courthouse, we look on a white jury, a white judge and a white attorney, and we are to be tried by another race, and not our own. Naturally, we don't believe that they would give us justice if it was against his race. We might get jus- tice if it was against our own race; one would have as good a oppor- tunity as every one, you know, to get justice. But we know we can't get justice in a court where there's nothing but white folks. [*unequal opportunities*] A: What do you think about the condition of the colored folks here in this town now -- about sanitation, and housing, and all these things? R: Wel, it's not good; we don't get justice along that line. This segregation law, I think, works hardships on us. I would have no objection to the segregation law if it was something like equal, you know, equal opportunities, you know. I wouldn't object so much; I Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 4 wouldn't just want to socialize, you know, with the other races. I wouldn't want to intermarry, I wouldn't want to sit down; care about eating and drinking and like that; I wouldn't care anything about that. The only thing I want is a equal opportunity. I think when it comes to my labor, my labor is worth as much as any man's labor, I should get as much for it. [*Negroes should have good ?*] I think then too that if we are gong to zone the city and have a place for each group to live, I think we ought to have some choice places as well as these -- according to our number, you know we shuld have equal opportunities. A: Do you think the unions are gonna help this thing? R: In the wages I think It will help some, yessir. But the union won't do us much good, you know, in finding a place to live. A: What about the thing that I'm struck by when I come back here is that as soon as I go up inot a Negro neighborhood, I go up into mud. R: Well, that's true now; they don't give the same amount of attention in our settlements to us as they do the white folks. They fix the streets, and their [islands?] and things, and then they tell me that it don't cost them like it do us. [*Bad gravel in the street*] Now I had this street fixed, and I had to pay at that time -- it was cheaper than it is now-- I paid 25ยข a [?] foot to have this street gravelled from Bank to Carol, and I had to get the money for every foot of it before the city would put the gravel down, and when I collected all of the money and carried it up there and give it to em, why, in a bout a month or two afterwards, they gravelled the street, but they didn't put the gravel on there that hey promised to. They made it somewhat better, but there was more sand & clay than there was gravel and a deal of it washed away, and out street is not what we thought it would be. But it's better than it was. A: Does the preacher have to function as the leader of the group in more ways than ministrial? Does he have to front for the group in white matters most of the time? Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 5 R: Sure he do. Yessir. Had it not been for myself, why, we wouldn't-a [have] had this streets gravelled not only this street but some of the other streets around here. And I just had to go uptown and go before the white folks and get them to just fix me out a [cl?ock)] and give me the price of everything, and then I would have to come back here and collect the money and carry it up there and have it done. And they don't do just what they promise us they'll do; they promised to keep this street up, keep gravel on it, you know, but they don't do it. A: Have you been up to protest about this? [S--l?] What did they say? R: [Sure] And I mean to go back to them as soon as this spell is over. A: What did they tell you? R: [They] Tell me they'll see to it. You know, they'll talk nice to you, but they don'tdo nothing about it much. A: Do you think they're more likely to treat a [minister] preacher nice than just a common Negro citizen? R: Well, now they pay a deal of attention now more than they have been because all of the colored people now are paying their poll tax, and they know when we come up there, we have a pretty good group behind us and they pay a little more attention to us. A: Do you think the e's ever gonna be some colored officers elected from [Gail's] Dallas County? R: Well, there may be. We may have some colored policemans since they find that they do a deal of good. I think we will. A: Do they go after the colored vote here now? Do they go out and make appeals for the vote? R: [Well] Oh, they voting now, yessir. A: [No,] I say do the politicians make an appeal forit? R: Oh yeah, they come over here to my church here sometimes and speak. Yessir, they do. A: What do the people think about them? Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 6 R: Well, they generally, -- you know, we have men here who examines [us to tell]; I mean the candidates whom they think, you know, is more favorable to [our] all races [and] they advise us then to vote for em. [And] They generally when they [have to go] interview, they tell us about what they say, and then according to that we make up our minds as to just who. A: You all are now voting in the Democratic Primary? R: Yessir. A: Good thing. R: Yessir. [Of course] Because, you know, whoever is elected in the Democratic Primary is the officer; tha6's all there is to that. A: What was the reaction here to Wallace's statement? R: I haven't heard much about Wallace. The people thinks a deal about Wallace, the colored people do. But I haven't heard any one much say any hing about voting for him yet I guess it'll come out after a while what they think. Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 1 A: You say you can't use a what? R: [A unkyer--see] An anxious seat, a mourner's bench, like you used to. If ypu call a sinner, if he come to your service and you call him up there tonight, why he won't be back; he say you bothering him. You've just got to preach to him on that bench, and if you can't win him that way, why, you just lost him. And if you try to bring [*Don't use Mourner's bench*] him up there, why, he just goes off and don't come back. So we deci- ded it would be best for us to let him kinda 'tend the church, and we preach to him. [when] Let him sit back there in the back, just so's we can get the message over to him, and we find that we've been more successful that way than we have in using the mourner's bench, [the reason is] in recent years. And then anotherway that we're [hampered] hindered in our environment - when sinners comes to our revivals, you know, from the home of members [that] who belong to other denominations, why, they're afraid that we might convert them to our denomination[s]. So they fight us and try to keep them from coming, teach them not to come, teach them that we are wrong [in] and teaching the wrong doctrine and things like that. So we find that in that way the denomination is harm--, very harmful [with] when people lose sight of Christ and just see his denomination. [*Diff Between denominations are foolish*] A: Do you think it would be better if there weren't any denominations, Reverend? R: I'm sure it would, Yessir. A: Do you think that the points that they difference on are not very im- portant? R: Not very important, for most of them. They's Some of them is just out- right ridiculous but some of them, they're so near together till there ain't anything that would make them differ[ent] but prejudice. One wants the crowd and [is] he's afraid the other will get it. A: Do you believe in preaching Hell-fire these days as much as you used to? R: I do. I believe the Gospel is the same and 'll always be. As long as we find in the Bible a Hell and a Heaven, it ought to be preached [according] because Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 2 [as] there is a Hell and a Heaven. [*Hell should be preached*] A: Do you believe in scaring the sinner and making him -- R: Well, I believe this: that the fear of punishment and the hope of reward have more effect on human conduct than anything else, and when you offer him the reward [from] through Christ and show him the punishement unless he accepts Christ, why, I think that constrains him. A: Do you look on the Devil as a real person that walks the world? R: I do, [I swear it] a spirit. I look on the Devil as a person and I believe he gets in people just like the Holy Spirit, the weaker spirits get in people just like they did when Christ was here, and they must be casted out before [he] we can ever be a good m[a]en or good wom[a]en. A: Do you believe in, that people have actually seen the Devil with their own two eyes? [*Devil*] R: Well, I don't think that he['s] is a visible - [in] he's spirit, [still] the devil the spirit. There's no man, I don't believe, has ever just seen the Devil with their own two eye, [nor] they never have they seen God. But God have been a [view] revealed to us through Jesus Christ, and the Devil have never been because he'd have scared us all to death in the world if he ever hada been. A: I guess you've realy seen people that were possessed of the Devil and you couldn't reach them in revivals. R: Oh, yes. Make em mad, they'd get mad, you talk to the about religion. [You] It's just a Devil gets in you when the Devil possesses you, why, you just as bad as you can be. Yeah, It's nothing but the Devil that makes men do evil, and men can get possessed with devils and become robbers, just become anything that's bad. And the only way that that man will ever be converted, the Devil have to be casted out of him. A: Well, Reverend, the way that your poeple have to live right here in Dallas, right here in this town now you know were talking about how things were in Louisiana, how about the way they have to live right here in Dallas? Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 3 And the conditions they have to live in? Doesn't that make them susceptible to the Devil's -- R: Well, its some [of them], they do. There is some people that bad treat- ments drives them nearer to God, and some it drives [them] um the other way. [*Trust in God and your difficulties will disappear.*] Because we [as good] who are Christians believe that the best thing we can do is to hold our peace and let God fight our battle. And then we believe that if all of the people of our race would turn to God and trust him and cease to fight, I believe that God would bring things to pass. And I think the [that] greatest failing now in humanity is the very fact that he just will not trust in God; he get him a gun; he wants to fight; he wants to destroy his enemy. A: Well, what about [is] the old saying that God helps him who helps himself? R: Well, that's so, too, in a spiritual way, that's so. [He] You want to help yourself, and I believe whatever we do ought to try to do it law- fully. A: Even if the other side uses unlawful methods. R: [Sure, sure.] Sho, sho. And, of course, we as colored folks know that the white folks have the law. If we go to the courthouse, we look at a white [*White folks justice*] jury, a white judge and a white attorney, and we are to be tried by another race, and not our own. Naturally, we don't believe that they would give us justice if it was against his race. We might get jus- tice if it was against our own race; one would have as good a oppor- tunity as every one, you know, to get justice. But we know we can't get justice in a court where there's noting but white folks. [*unequal opportunities*] A: What do you think about the condition of the colored folks here in this town now -- about sanitation, and housing, and all these things? R: Wel,, it's not good. We don't get justice along that line. This segregation law, I think, works hardships on us. I would have no objection to the segregation law if it was something like equal, you know, equal opportunities, you know. I wouldn't object so much; I Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 4 wouldn't just want to socialize, you know, with the other races. I wouldn't want to intermarry, I wouldn't want to go sit down, care about eating and drinking and like that; I wouldn't care anything about that. The only thing I want is a equal opportunity. I think when it comes to [Mahleva Mahleva] my labor is worth as much as any man's [neighbor] labor, I should getas much for [her] it. I think then too that if we are going to zone the city and have a place [*Negroes should have good zones.*] for each group to live, I think we ought to have some choice places as well as they - according to our number, you know, we should have equal opportunities. [*Negroes should have good zones.*] A: Do you think the unions are gonna help this thing? R: In the wages I think. It will help [sure] some, yessir. But the union won't do us much good, [for a finer] you know, in finding a place to live. A: What about the thing that I'm struck by when I come back here is that as soon as I go up into a Negro neighborhood, I go up into mud. R: Well, that's true now; they don't give the same amount of attention to our settlements as they do the white folks. They fix the streets, and their islands and [*Bad gravel in the street*] things, and then they tell me that it don't cost them like it do us. Now I had this street fixed, and I had to pay at that time -- it was cheaper than it is now -- I paid 25 cents a [front?] foot to have this street graveled from Bank to Carol, and I had to get the money for every foot of it before the city would put the gravel down, and when I collected all of the money and [get] carried it up there and give it to em, why, in about a month or two afterwards, they graveled the street, but they didn't put the gravel on there that hey promised [me] to. They made it somewhat better, but there was more sand and clay than there was gravel and a deal of it washed away, and our street is n ot what we thought it would be. But it's better than it was. A: Does the preacher have to [act] function as the leader of the group in more ways than ministerial? [and] Does he have to front for the group in white matters most of the time? Reverend Roe. Reel 10. P. 5 R: Sure he do. Yessir. Had it not been for myself, why, we wouldn't - a [have] had these streets graveled - not only this street but some of the other streets around here. And I just had to go uptown and go before the white folks and get them to just fix me out a (clock?) and give me the price of everything, and then I would have to come back here and collect the money and carry it up there and have it done. And they don't do just what they promise us they'll do; they promised to keep this street up, keep gravel on it, you know, but they don't do it. A: Have you been up to protest about this? Some. What did they say? R: [Sure] And I mean to go back to them as soon as this spell is over. A: What did they tell you? R: [They] Tell me that they'll see to it. You know, they'll talk nice to you, but they don'tdo nothing about it much. A: Do you think they're more likely to treat a [minster] preacher nice than just a common Negro citizen? R: Well, now they pay a deal of attention now more than they have been, because all of the colored people now are paying their poll tax, and they know when we come up there, we have a pretty good group behind us and they pay a little more attention to us. A: Do you think there's ever gonna be some colored officers elected from [Gails] Dallas County? R: Well, there may be. We may have some colored policemans, since they find that they do a deal of good. I think we will. A: Do they go after the colored vote here now? Do they go out and make appeals for the vote? R: [Well] Oh, they voting now, yessir. A: [No] I say do the politicians make an appeal for it? R: Oh yeah, they come over here to my church here sometimes and speak. Yessir, they do. A: What do the people think about them? Reverend Roe . Reel 10. P. 6 R: Well, they generally, -- you know, we have men here who examines [us to tell], I mean the candidates whom they think, you know, is more favorable to [our] all races [and] they advise us then to vote for em. [And] They generally when they [have to go] interviewed, they tell us about what they say, and then according to that we make up our minds as to just who.. A: You all are now voting in the Democratic Primary? R: Yessir. A: Good thing. R: Yessir. [Of course] Because, you know, whoever is elected in the Democratic Primary is the officer; tha6's all there is to that. A: What was the reaction here to Wallace's statement? R: I haven't heard much about Wallace. The people thinks a deal about Wallace, the colored people do. But I haven't heard any one much say any hing about voting for him yet. I guess it'll come out after a while - what they think. Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P. 1 [*Mother part Indian was a granny*] [I understand] Just saying my mother, you know, she was part Indian, and she learnt a lot of remedies from her, from the Indian folks, you know, and she cured the women of all female troubles. And she was a granny, you know, too. Yeah, [and] she [did all those little things] 'tended to all those things when I was just a boy. And she used to have me go out , [you know,] and dig different herbs for her you know. She used witch hazel [in]root a lot of [she] it [brewings], grew in Louisiana, you know. Down there you can get most any kind of herb, you know. She would send me and show me what kind [of herb] to dig, and I would dig em and she would make the medicine and cure the women and some of those things I larned and when I left home and came to Texas here, of course a lot of the remedies that she used [came] I kept um in my mind. From the Indians, you know; her mother you know was part Indain, you know, and then her grandmother was a full blood and of course she associated a deal, you know, in her younger days with those Indians. A: What about the African side of the family, didn't anything come down from them? [*Her father from Africa- story of her family in slavery*] R: Well [no,] not that I know of. Of course, her father, you know, was brung from Africa over here and was made a slave. Yessir. [And] I don't know whether she learned anything from the Africans or not; I think she got most of the remedies from the Indians because she [was left] reared up with the Indians, and her father - she was taken from her father, and he was sold when she was quite young, and she didn't get to associate, you know, with her father, you know, very much. And there were [some] several [of em] of the children, and they was sold and scattered . Her youngest brother and her oldest brother is the only two that she could give much account of. [Even] They hung her older brother because the white man bought him and wanted to give him 50 lashes before he started in to work and he hadn't did anything, and he attempted to do it and he killed him; he kil[ed]t his boss and they hung him. And then my younger brother, I mean her younger brother they sold here, and they carried him Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P. 2 off, she said, she didn't know where. But she said one day she was on the white folks's porch, and she seen him coming down the lane, and she said she just walked out to the fence, and she talked to him through the rail fence there, you know, and he told her that his boss - [that] his mas- ter's horses had got out and he was looking for [him] um. And [he] told her that he was [frightened of him if he] tracking em - that they went that way [since]and say, "If I find [him] um and I can so that I come back by this lane." He told her to be watching for him, but she never did see him; that was the last she ever did see of him any more. So she didn't know much about her people because [she] they was sold when she was just a girl, you know, and she didn't have the care of a mother and father but she associated mostly with the Indians around. A: Where was that? R: Well, she was in South Carolina and Virginia, I believe it was [*His mother's remedies*] Virginia, yeah. And she learnt[ed] these remedies, of course, from them. And then she practiced on the people around; she didn't get anything much, only just presents, you know, for it. But the women, both white and colored, would have her come, you know, and use her remedies; they always helped [them] um. And I learned some of those things from her and I've never forgotten um. A: You were telling me somebody put some poison in your coffee. R: Well, A: How did that happen? R: Well, there was a [family] woman now that fell out with us. And I used to build [be] on these old [stack] dirt chimneys; we made what they call [cats] bricks out of mud and hay and I was the fastest was in the country, and this fellow wanted two chimneys built, and my father sent me - then I was about 17 years old - and he sent me over there to build them, and I worked, you know, till late [until] I [finished] finishing them; I built the two chimneys that day. I had men, of course, to help me; I just did the work up there and they Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P. 3 [*Roe is poisoned*] [mean to] give me the stuff. And that evening it was about [dirt] dusk -- you know, we used to work all day until about sun-down - why, she called [me] us [for] to dinner and [to] we eat. [We finished] eat our supper, and she told me, "You got to go home; you been working [too] so hard." She say, "You [got to] better drink this cup of coffee." And, of course, we always minded the older folks and I drank it. And it began cramping me soon after I left. And along the side of the road there was an old weed, you know, that growed, and we used to chew it, you know, for cramps in your stomach, you know, -- life [of molasses] everlasting, [they] we called it. And I would get [them] that and chew it and kept going, and then I went by one of the old [ladies] neighbors there and she give me some medicine, and then I went on home. And before I got home [when] I got to the place, I couldn't walk; I had to go in on my all fours. And when Mother heard me, you know, coming in, and I was groaning and [groaning] going on, [sure enough] she ran out, and she said, [*Mother gives him remedy*] "My child, somebody['s] has poisoned [you] him to death." And she went and got something; I do not know what it was, but she made -- I think she must have just cut it up and put real hot boiling water on it, and she started me a-drinking it, and as fast as I'd drink it, I'd throw it up. And she'd give me nother glass, and I'd throw it up. And she kept giving it to me until it stayed on my stomach, and she said, "Well, the poison is all out of his stomach now; he throwed it all up, and say " You'll get all right." And she gave me a big glass of it, and put me to bed and so now it didn't bother me no more, I got all right. But I never knew what it was. [It was] I seen the herb it was something green, and the stem of it was right around and right green looking. But I didn't think then that I would ever need it, you know; [I] just though Mother was there and she would always be there, you know, A: And since then you've used some of these cures of your m other's very successfully. R: Oh yes, , I've used lots of them, [I should say] since then I've used them, and they have always [done me lots of good. I've had doctors with me and paid out lot of money on my kidneys and they didn't do me any good] Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P. 4 done me lots of good. I had a doctor for me and paid out a lot of money on my kidneys, and he didn't give me any good until I got the old remedies and went to taking it, and I [was just] got me all right; I haven't been bothered any, you know, since. I found out, you know, what they [*They were good*] would keep me healthy, the they would do me good, and I just keeps em and keeps using em; I uses em now. A: Have you cured many other people? R: Thousands of peo le, I've cured A: [And] I suppose that's helped you very much in your church work. [*Roe cures people*] R: Oh yeah. They call me from all over the city now. I won't go out; I tell em I'm too old to go running around. [I tell em] If they come over, I'll fix em u p [with] somepin, just some tea, you know. But I can't charge, you know, if the people give me anything, cause they'd put me in jail. But I guess I do em lots of good -- they all say so -- cause lots of em they go to the doctors and they don't get any better, they come to me and I fix it for em, and they come back [tomorrow morning] & tell me "Well, I'm all right." Some- time they give me something. Sometimes a long time afterward, they may give me a present of some kind or may be some money. And I8ve stopped the high blood pressure, [oh, of just lots] on just 1000's of people. And I started telling you about [the shoe boy] Shug over here on Sherman Street, but I stopped. He [went] was sent home to die, and a fellow came after me, he just believed I could [cure] [cyove?] him. And I went over and I give him some herb-medicine and then I give him a stuff that I make up to put on to just [a] to rub[bing stuff] yourself you know. And it soon stopped those scales [cured him] from cumulating, and he went down, he was [a swooning] swollen oh just up so['s] he couldn't pass his clothes on him. It all went down, and he got up, and the old white man that he rented from, after they had give him up to die, you know, he thought this boy soon'll wold be gone, he just [wouldn't] as well put him out, he come by one evening and so he had got up then and walked out in the yard. And he asked what had happened to him & he told him to [tel] him what I had done for him. And he went over there 'cross the creek and told folks. Reve end Roe. Reel 11. P. 5 over there, [he told em what itd done for him] he say s, "There's nigger over there has raised the dead (laughter). Yeah. A: What disease did you think he had? R: Well, I didn't know, really I didn't know [the] any name for it. But, you know, I had seen something like it, and, of course, I used the remedies that cured that, you know. A: You [say] 've seen your mother cure[s] a disease something like it. R: Oh yes, something like it, you know. A: You didn't even know the name for it. R: No sir, I did not. The hospital out there didn't, and they had 50 specialists, they say, with him. If you'd meet him here in town, he'd tell you. He came here to my church, this church, [twice] and stood up here in church and told my folks about it, Yessir. And he'll tell anybody that asked him. He comes over here every now and then. Now in sum er time he'll [give me all he have] be over here now and then. A: Ho many remedies do you know? R: Oh, I know a lots of em; I know lots a remedies A: Have you written them down? R: No sir, now I've never written them down. I leanred [most] one of my boys somethings that he got in trouble, you know, cause he [said] sell it (laughter), and [he taught the] they started to rest [of them] him once, [o] so they told him to stop making em. And on once occasion they wanted to arrest me, but they [sent my] 's some lawyers there [in] that had the case of some boys that was in jail, and those boys was sick and they got [some] medicine from me and I cured them. And a fellow, he got angry with me over some property we [have] had there and he wanted to put me in about making the medicine. But those lawyers told him , they said "It won't cost you nothing. I know what you done for those boys in jail, says, and I may need some of it." (laughter) And I cured lot of the white folks, too. They come [home]. I had a white woman that wanted some children from her husband, and she come Reverend Roe . Reel 11. P. 6 to me and got some medicine, and it made her feel so good, you know, and everything, why she give me a big rocking-chair, and it [wasn't] ran on oh, I think it was abou t a year and six months she wrote another woman over there she had a fine little blu- eyed boy ( laughter), [mighty fine] and thanked me for it. I know how to make a medicine, you know, for the lost of manhood, and if I'd make it, why I guess I wouldn't do nothing else but make it. A: Have [you] it's actually worked [that] out with people? R: [With] Anybody. A: How long does it have its effect? R: It takes, oh, about some eight or somewhere eight [or] nine days; it doesn't come just right now, you know. A: How long doesit last? R: Wel, I tell you now : I don't know but I have a man, he's [passing] pastor now at Houston, and it's been three years ago, and he just had me make it for him and he taken it regular, I reckon he taken it regular for a- bout three months, and that's been about three years ago. [The] And last time I seen him, he told me it had never bothered him since. He feel all right, and he's a man that's close to sixty years old, yessir. Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P. 1 [*Mother part Indian -was a granny.*] [I understand] Just saying my mother, you know, she was part Indian, and she learnt a lot of remedies from her, from the Indian Folks, you know, and she cured the woman of all female troubles. And she was a granny, you know, too. Yeah, and she [did all those little things] 'tended to all those things when I was just a boy. And she used to have me go out, [you know,] and dig different herbs for her, you know. She used witch hazel [in] root a lot of [the] it [brewings] grew in Louisiana you know. Down there you can get most any kind of a herb, you know. She would send me and show me what kind [of herb] to dig, and I would dig em and she would make the medicine and cure the women and some of those things I larned, and when I left home and came to Texas here, of course a lot of the remedies that she used [came] I kept um in my mind. From the Indians, you know; her mother you know was part Indain, you know, and then her grandmother was a full blood, and of course she associated a deal, you know, in her younger days with those Indians. A: What about the African side of the family, didn't anything come down from them? [*Her father from Africa -- Story of her family in slavery.*] R: Well, [no,] not that I know of. Of course, her father, you know, was brung from Africa over here and was made a slave. Yessir. [And] I don't know whether she learned anything from the Africans or not; I think she got most of the remedies from the Indians because she [was left] reared up with the Indians, and her father - she was taken from her father, and he was sold when she was quite young, and she didn't get to associate you know, with her father, you know, very much. And there were 7 [some] of em, of the children, and they was sold and scattered . Her youngest brother and her oldest brother is the only two that she could give much account of. [From her] They hung her older brother because the white man bought him and wanted to give him 50 lashes before he started in to work and he hadn't did anything, and he attempted to do it and he killed him; he kill[ed]t his boss and they hung him. And then my younger brother, I mean her younger brother they is sold here, and they carried him Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P. 2 off, she said, she didn't know where. But she said one day she was on the white folks's porch, and she seen him coming down the lane, and she said she just walked out to the fence, and she talked to him through the rail fence there, you know, and he told her that his boss- [that] his mas- ter's horses had got out and he was looking for [him] um. And [he] told her that he was [frightened of him if he] tracking um - that they went that way [since] and say if I find [him] um and I can so that I come back by this lane." He told her to be watching for him, but she never did see him; that was the last she ever did see of him any more. So she didn't know much about her people because [she] they was sold when she was just a girl, you know, and she didn't have the care of a mother and father but she associated mostly with the Indians around. A: Where was that? [*her mother's remedies*] R: Well, she was in South Carolina and Virginia, I believe it was Virginia, yeah. And she learnt[ed] these remedies, of course, from them. And then she practiced on the people around; she didn't get anything much, only just presents, you know, for it. But the women, both white and colored, would have her come, you know, and use her remedies; they always helped [them] um. And I learned some of those things from her I've never forgotten. A: You were telling me somebody put some poison in your coffee. R: Well, A: How did that happen? R: Well, there was a family that fell out with us, and I used to build [be] on these old [stack] dirt chimneys; we made what they call cats out of mud and hay and I was the fastest was in the country, and this fellow wanted two chimneys built, and my father sent me - then I was about 17 years old - and he sent me over there to build them, and I worked, you know, till late [until] I [finished] finishing them; I built the two chimneys that day. I had men, of course, to help me; I just did the work up there [I] they Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P. 3 [*Roe is poisoned*] [mean to] give me the stuff. And that evening it was about [dirt] dusk -- you know, we used to work all day until about sun-down - why, she called me for dinner and [to] we eat. We [finished] eat our supper, and she told me, "You got to go home; you been working [too] so hard." She say, "You [got to] better drink this cup of coffee." And, of course, we always minded the older folks and I drank it. And it began cramping me soon after I left. And along the side of the road there was an old weed, you know, that growed, and we used to chew it, you know, for cramps in your stomach, you know, -- life [of molasses] everlasting, [they] we called it. And I would get [them] that and chew it and kept going, and then I went by one of the old [ladies] neighbors there and she give me some medicine, and then I went on home. And before I got home, when i got to the place, I couldn't walk; I had to go in on my all fours. And when Mother heard me, you know, coming in, and I was groaning and [groaning] going on, [sure enough] she ran out, and she said, [Mother gives him remedy] "My child, somebody['s] has poisoned [you] him to death." And she went and got something; I do know what it was, but she made -- I think she must have just cut it up and put real hot boiling water on it, and she started me a-drinking it, and as fast as I'd drink it, I'd throw it up. And she'd give me nother glass, and I'd throw it up. And she kept giving it to me until it stayed on my stomach, and she said, "Well, the poison is all out of his stomach now: he throwed it all up," [and] say "You'll get all right." And she gave me a big glass of it, and put me to bed and so now it didn't bother me no more. I got all right. But I never knew what it was. [It was] I seen the herb. It was something green, and the stem of it was right around and right green looking. But I didn't think then that I would ever need it, you know; [I] just thought Mother was there and she would always be there, you know. A: And since then you've used some of these cures of your mother's very successfully. R: Oh yes, I've used lots of them, I [should say] since then, I've used them and they have always [illegible typing ???] I had doctor for me and paid out a lot of Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P.4 done me lots of good. I had a doctor for me and paid out a lot of money on my kidneys, and he didn't give me any good until I got the old remedies and went to taking it, and I [was just] got um all right; I haven't been bothered any, you know, since. I found out, you know, that they they were food would keep me healthy, tht they would do me good, and I just keeps em and keep using em; I uses em now. A: Have you cured many other people? R: Thousands of peo le, I've cured R: [And] I suppose that's helped you very much in your church work. [*Roe cures people*] R: Oh yeah. They call me from all over the city now. I won't go out; I tell em I'm too old to go running around. I tell em if they come over, I'll fix em u p [with] steeping just some tea, you know. But I can't charge you know, if the people give me anything, cause they'd put me in jail. But I guess I do em lots of good -- they all say so -- cause lots of em They go to the doctors and they don't get any better, then come to me and I fix it for em, and they come back [tomorrow morning] and tell me "Well I'm all right." Some- time they give me something. Sometimes a long time afterward, they may give me a present or some kind or may be some money. And I8ve stopped the high blood presure, [oh, of just lots of] of just 1000's of people. And I started telling you about [the shoe-box] a boy over here on Sherman Street, but I stopped. He [went] was sent home to die, and a fellow came after me, he just believed I could cure him. And I went over and i give him some herb medicine and then i give him a stuff that I make up, to put on just [a] to rub[bing stuff] yourself you know. And it soon stopped those scales, [cured him] from cumulating and he went down, he was [a-swooning] swollen oh just up so['s] he couldn't pass his clothes on him. It all went down, and he got up, and the old whitem na that he rented from, after they had give him up to die, you know, he thought this boy soon wold be gone, he just wouldn't put him out, he come by one evening and so he had got up then and walked out in the yard. And he asked him to tole him what I'd done for him. And he went over there 'cross the creek and told folks Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P. 5 over there, he says, the nigger over there has raised the dead (laughter). Yeah. A: What disease did you think he had? R: Well, I didn't know, really I didn't know the name for it. But you know, I had seen something like it, and of course, I used the remedies that cured that, you know. A: You say your mother cured a disease something like it. R: Oh yes, something like it, you know. A: You didn't even know the name for it. R: No sir, I did not. The hospital there did, and they had 50 specialists, they say, with him. If you'd meet him here in town, he'd tell you. He came here to my church, this church, twice and stood up here in church and told my folks about it, yessir, and he'll tell anybody that. He comes over here every now and then. Now in summer time he'll give me all he have now and then. A: How many remedies do you know? R: Oh, I know lots of em; I know lots a remedies. A: Have you written them down? R: No sir, I've never written them down. I leanred most one of my boys something that he got in trouble, you know, cause he said it (laughter), and he taught the rest of them once, o they told him to stop making em. And on one occasion they wanted to arrest me, but they sent my lawyers there in the case of some boy that was in jail, and those boys was sick and they got some medicine from me and I cured them. And a fellow got angry with me over some property we have there and he wanted to put me in about making the medicine. But those lawyers told him, they said "It won't cost you nothing. I know what you done for those boys in jail, and I may need some of it." (laughter) And I cured lot of the white folks, too, they come here. I had a white woman that wanted some children from her husband, and she come Reverend Roe. Reel 11. P. 6 to me and got some medicine, and it made her feel so good, you know, and everything, why she gave me a big rocking-chair, and it wasn't oh, I think it was about a year and six months she had a fine little blu -eyed boy ( laughter), mighty fine.. I know how to make a medicine, you know, for the lost of manhood, and if I'd make it, why I guess I wouldn't do nothing else but make it. A: Have you actually worked that with people? R: With anybody. A: How long does it have its effects? R: It takes, oh, about some eight or nine days; it doesn't come just right now, you know. A: How long doesit last? R: Wel, I tell you now : I don't know but I have a man, he's passing now at Houston, and It's been three years ago, and he had me make it for him and he taken it regular, I reckon he taken it regular for about three months, and that's been about three years ago. The last time I seen him, he told me it had never bothered him since. He feel all right, and he's a man that's close to sixty years old, yessir. Transcribed and reviewed by volunteers participating in the By The People project at crowd.loc.gov.