American Folklife Center, Library of Congress Alan Lomax Collection (AFC 2004/004) folder 02.02.08 writings, books Rainbow Sign transcripts, Reverend Roe Reverend Roe. Reel 12 - p. 1. [*Another case-- confounds the conjurors*] ...Fool all the people over there -- call themselves conjurors, you know--and they was waiting on that woman, and they charge her $50, and they told me, you know, about how the woman's acting and all that, and by what they told me, [you know,] I knew just what was the matter with her, and just fixed up one of the old remedies my mother used to make, you know, in a half a pint bottle and I told them, 'Now, you just this over there and give her a dose of it tonight, give her half of it tonight when you get there and at midnight you give her the other half." And they taken it-- went over there and give it to her, and she got up the next morning and cook breakfast, she had been down there, they'd been working down there two or three weeks. And they took that woman's money, they taken her money. And when they came back, you know--they all came back to where I was stay ng, in fact, I was staying at one of the women's house. And I was out in the lawn when they come back -- all of em went in, and I walked up in the chimley corner and listen at um, I wanted to [hear] see what they sayin, you know, and they was talking about the money, about dividing the $50. Well, they began to talk about me and I seen that they had beem convinced that I was a great conjuror and knowed something as I come from Louisiana, you know. So I listened at em and I just walked in as though I'd knew just everything, you know, and I says, "Well, the woman's up?" They say, "Oh yeah, she got up." I say, "Where's that you all got from um?" They kinda look at one another. I say, "Put it here on the table." A: What? R: I said, "Put it here on the table." The little table in there. They put it on the table--there was four of em in there--and I took and give em $5 apiece, and I took and put the other in my pocket (laughter). I cured the woman. A: And they were afraid of you. R: Oh yeah, they thought I was a great conjur. And that's one of Reverend Roe. Reel 12- p.2. the reasons that I lost all confidence in anybody that they could do those things, you know. Now every one of those people come to me, try to get me to learn them something. I didn't know anything about conjur, in fact, I never have believed in it. A: Guess back to your growing-up time, there were lots of peoples in the country that believed it. [*Conjuring*] R: Oh yes, they just have a whole lot of different stuff they'd sew around the house there, stuff they'd put out fur um, and all like a that, you know, but I never have believed in it. They never could make me believe in no foolisheness like that; I just couldn't, I couldn't see no reason in it. I believe that if a person could put some kind of a poison in you or something on you, why then could hurt you. [*Mother cures a case of strychnine poisoning.*] Minn[ie]y McGilb, a one-eyed fellow there, was courting a woman and there was a old fellow there he had a wife, and that was his sweetheart, and she was washing Old Man Minny's clothes, and he got some strychnine and just put it all in them clothes, and when [he got him s?] Old Man Minny went over there and taken a bath and put those clothes on and started home -when he 'gin yo get hot, you know; that stuff would get to working, I guess, through the pores of his skin, and by the time he got over there to our house--it was a mile or two--hot summertime--he had just almost gone crazy and he was a-trotting. And my mother seen him looking peculiar and she told my borther to go over there to the road and meet him. And he wen over there, and they brought him over to our house, and they stripped him. I don't know how she knew it, but she had 'em to strip him, and she fixed something and bathed him in, and he stayed there that day and next morning he was all right. And she told him what had been done. A: She must have been a wonderful woman, your mother. R: Yessir. She told him what happened, that somebody had put strychnine Reverend Roe. Reel 12- p.3. strychnine in his clothes. So we just said it must have been true (laughter). And it was running that fellow crazy. He was just running like somebody mad. Well now I believe if people, if there's something put on you or get in you can hurt you, why, that's poison. That's no conjur. But say somebody put something down, why, I don't believe nothing like that. A: Well, Reverend, haven't members of your congregation come to you to get you to hlp them lay ghosts that were bothering them, spirits and things? Not conjur, but just supernatural things, haven't they ever come to you for help like that? R: No, not for nothing like that I never had any of um come to me, mostly for some kind of sickness that or if they conjured or something like that and I always get that out of them; I talk that out of them because I don't believe it, you know. And I tell you it's a very foolish thing. [*conjure*] And there was an old man there in a white fellow's house on a farm, and they wanted to git him out, they wanted some renters, you know, and he wanted to get the old man out and he wouldn't move, so there's a fellow told him, "I move him." He said, "Well, I give you $5 to get him out." And he went and got him some flour, and he went all around that house that night and just put a trail of that flour all the way around his house and went on back home. And the next morning that old fellow got up, and he looked out the door and seen it, and looked out the window and seen it, all around his house. And he got him some clothes and got um in his arms and he taken a-running, start off that porch, jumped over it and they couldn't, a sheriff couldn't got him back in that house (laughter). He thought somebody had conjured him. Well, that was down in Red River, in Red River bottom--he believed in it, you know. [But our people don't believe in that so much now like they used to. No, they don't. Hust a few of em. And then another thing,] Reverend Roe. Reel 12- p. 4. [*People have stopped believing in conjure.*] But our people don't believe in that so much now like they used to. No, they don't. Just a few of em. And then another things, we have so many people around that's making money on such stuff as that, and they claim that they can cure diseases and they get out poeple there and they tell um their birth and that [they can cure] on such-and-such a time didn't such-and-such a thing happen, didn't you eat something or didn't you--something like that. And maybe they'll hit it, you know, maube you did eat or drink something at such and-such a time like they said. Well, they got you then. They fix you up a little stuff and get a lot of money out of you. As long as people can fool you out of money on a thing, brother, they'll use it. They pour water and all like a that. [But I don't fool with it.] [*Woman who can find lost things.*] Lose something, she tell em where to find it, and the find it. But I don't fool with it. A: You think she really can do this? R: She've did it. There was a woman came by one day and had lost a dollar, 'twas a silver dollar--, and she told her, says, "I lost a dollar 'tween here and down." And she just thought a minute, she sayd, "Well, you lost that dollar down in that little culvert down there." And she went back down there, she looked and she didn't see it, and she went back and said she didn't find it. And she said, "Well, it's under something; you go back." And she went back there and kinda looked under the culvert and sure enough, (laughter) the dollar was laying back under there. And the woman lost a--somebody stole her horse up there, and she asked her about it. She told her, "Well, now, don't you worry about the horse." She say, "That horse'll come right by your house; 'twill be a man driving it." And it wasn't but a week, I think, after that before that horseman drove right by her house. She stopped him, got the law and got her horse, too. And then, that glass company over there, they lost a typewriter and a Reverend Roe. Reel 12-p.5. adding-machine, and they came over there and asked her where it was. And she told them it was out there in the country under a haystack. And they went out there and they scraped aroudn there, and they didn't find it, and the come back. She said, "Well, it's out there." Say, she say, "Now you dig a hole there, [and set the things in there and ha] it's down there." So they went back, and sure enough they had a dug a hole there and set the things in there, and got both of them machines. [*Trouble in church-false accusation by a rival preacher.*] And then on one occasion (Omission) that any sinner could do, because they pose as Christians and get the confidence of the people, they teach false doctrines, and then they practice all kind of a sin[g]ful things, you know, in their presence and lead lots of people on. Sure, I had a man here running me a meeting-- his brother was a member of our church- and he'd come here and preach, and go off that night, you know, and get him spo[e]rting women and have a big time, and he got the the place he's so drunk he couldn't preach, so he wanted to-- Well, he was a good preacher, youknow, and he had got the people, you know, was liking him fine. And he thought he could put me out and git the church, and I give him enough money so he went and paid down on a car and got a car, and he carried me on to Fort Worth with him to see my niece over there. And when we was leaving he had persuaded a girl to go with us -- I didn't know it--and she's at the drugstore down there-- and I picked her up and carried her. And he come back and told the people that I carried the girl and got her over there and left me and her in the house and didn't know what we'd done and all like a that, you know, and I went to my niece's house, you know, and he went there with me and the girl with me, and all went in. Well, she made um welcome, you know, and shewwanted to see me privately and we got talking and I come out, he had left. And then the girl told me that he said that she wanted me. And I just thought so strange of him. And then I started then to go and catch me a bus and get on home; but on account Reverend Roe. Reel 12-p.6. of the girl being there and her mama and all of em a member of my church, and she begged me so till I just toughed it out and come on back with um and he come on back and put all that stuff out in my church. I just sent him on away. And, you know, that same rascal had the gall to come back here and want to preach for me again! I wouldn't even ask him say his prayers in my church. A: What did you tell him? R: Before? A: No, what did you tell him when he came back? R: Oh. You see, he tried to put everything on me, says I had told so on, so on, so on, so on. I said I told them about nothing. Then I found out that he was trying to raise a racket, you know, and he did get up quite a little stew over there, and so he would deny this thing to me but he would tell the people all around, but he denied to me because he was afraid just to come out, you know, and say I did thus and so, and then he was afraid of my boy, too; my boy were here. And I just stopped the meeting then and let him go, and I had--it was on Friday night--when I stopped the meeting, and he came back here Sunday, and I preached myself. He thought, you know, that the people liked his preaching so well until I wouldn't be able to do much good. But he come back here that Sunday and when I got through with my sermon, he say, "Well, you's a good preacher (laughter); you's a good preacher, all right." What do you want to do? He went off and wrote back to his brother, asked him hand't he got shut of me yet. But I'm still here (laughter) and he's still knocking around yet. But he's just a devil, and we've got lots of em and lots of em is just known. You can't even take that man in your house. You can take a man in our house, and if you had to git up and go off after something, the next morning he'd be down in there after your wife before you got back, or daughter, or anything like that. He's just bad. And got plenty of em that don't Reverend Roe. Reel 12-p.7. preach the Gospel. We got many of em that don't do noth n g but get up in the pulpit and make a pretty noise, just holler and hoot, and they got some people that shout over it. Reverend Roe. Reel 12 - p. 1. ...Fool all the people over there -- call themselves conjurors, you know--and they was waiting on that woman, and they charge her $50, and they told me, you know, about how the woman's acting and all that, and by what they told me, [you know,] Iknew just what was the matter with her, and just fixed up one of the old remedies my mother used to make, you know, in a half a pint bottle and I told them, "Now you just this over there and give her a dose of it tonight, give her half of it tonight when you get there and at midnight you give her the other half." And [when] they taken it-- went over there and give it to her, and she got up the next morning and cook breakfast, she had been down there, they'd been working down there two or three weeks. And they took that woman's money, they taken her money. And when they came back, you know--they all came back to where I was staying, in fact, I was staying at one of the women's house. And I was out in the lawn when they come back-- all of em went in, and I walked up in the chimley corner and listen at um, I wanted to [hear] see what they sayin, you know, and they was talking about the money , about dividing the $50. Well, they began to talk about me and I seen that they had beem convinced that I was a great conjuror and knowed something as I come from Louisiana, you know. So I listened at em and I just walked in as though I'd knew just everything, you know, and I says, "Well, the woman's up?" They say, " Oh yeah,ahe got up." I say "Where's that you all got from um?" They knida look at one another. I sa[t]y, "Put it here on the table." A: What? R I said, "Put it here on the table." The little table in there. They put it on the table--there was four of em in there--and I took and give em $5 apiece, and I took and put the other in my pocket (laughter). I cured the woman. A: And they were afraid of you. R: Oh yeah, they thought I was a great conjur. And that's one of Reverend Roe. Reel 12- p.2. the reasons that I lost all confidence in anybody that they could do those things, you know. Now every one of those people come to me, try to get me to learn them something. I didn't know anything about conjur, in fact, I never have believed in.it. A: Guess back to your growing-up time, there were lots of peoples in the country that believed it. R: Oh yes, they just have a whole lot of different stuff they'd sew around the house there, stuff they'd put out fur um, and all like a that, you know, but I never have believed in it. They never could make me believe in no foolishness like that; I just couldn't, I couldn't see no reason in it. I believe that if a person could put some kind of a poison in you or something on you, why then could hurt you. Minn[ie]y McGilb, a one-eyed fellow there, was courting a woman and there was a old fellow there he had a wife, and that was his sweetheart, and she was washing Old Man Minny's clothes, and he got him some strychnine and just put it all in them clothes, and [he got him] when Old Man Minny went over there and taken a bath and put those clothes one and started home -when he 'gin yo get hot, you know; that stuff would get to working, I guess, through the pores of his skin, and by the time he got over there to our house--it was a mile or two--hot summertime--he had just almost gone crazy and he was a-trotting. Andmy mother seen him looking peculiar and she told my borther to go over there to the road and meet him. And he went over there, and they brought him over to our house, and they stripped him. I don't know how she knew it, but she had 'em to strip him, and she fixed something and bathed him in, and he stayed there that day and next morning he was all right. And she told him what had been done. A: She must have been a wonderful woman, your mother. R: Yessir. She told him what happened, that somebody had put strych- Reverent Row. Reel 12- p.3. nine in his clothes. So we just said it must have been true (laughter). And it was running that fellow crazy. He was just running like somebody mad. Well now I believe if people, if there's something put on you or get in you can hurt you, why, that's poison. That's no conjur. But say somebody put something down, why, I don't believe nothing like that. A: Well, Reverend, haven't members of your congregation come to you to get you to help them lay ghosts that were bothering them, spirits and things? Not conjur, but just supernatural things, haven't they ever come to you for help like that? R: No, not for nothing like that I never had any of um come to me, mostly for some kind of sickness that or if they conjured or something like that and I always get that out of them; I talk that out of them because I don't believe it, you know. And I tell you it's a very foolish thing. And there was an old man there in a white fellow's house on a farm, and they wanted to git him out, they wanted some renter, you know, and he wanted to get the old man out and he wouldn't move, so there's a fellow told him, "I move him." He said, "Well, I give you $5 to get him out." And he went and got him some flour, and he went all around that house that night and just put a trail of that flour all the way around his house and wenton back home. And the next morning that old fellow got up, and he looked out the door and seen it, and looked out the window and seen it, all around his house. And he got him some clothes and got um in his arms and he taken a-running, start off the porch, jumped over it and they couldn't, a sheriff couldn't got him back in that house (laughter). He thought somebody had conjured him. Well, that was down in Red River, in Red River bottom--he believed in it, you know. But our people don't believe in the so much new like they used to. No, they don't. Hust a few of em. And then another thing, Reverend Roe. Reel 12 - p.4. But our people don't believe in that so much now like they used to. No, they don't. Just a few of em. And then another things, we have so many people around that's making money on such stuff as that, and they claim that they can cure diseases and they get out poeple there and they call um their birth and that [they can cure] on such-and-such a time didn't such-and-such a thing happen, didn't you eat something or didn't y ou--someth ng like that. And maybe they'll hit it, you know, maube you did eat or drink something at such and-such a time like they said. Well, they got you then. They fix you up a little stuff and get a lot of money out of you. As long as people can fool you out of money on a thing, brother, they'l l use it. They pour water and all like a that. [But I don't fool with it.] Lose something, she tell em where to find it, and the find it. But I don't fool with it. A: You think she really can do this? R: She've did it. There was a woman came by one day and had lost a dollar, 'twas a silver dollar--, and she told her, says, "I lost a dollar 'tween here and down." And she just thought a minute, she sayd , "Well, you lost that dollar down in that little culvert down there." And she went back down there, she looked and she didn't see it, and she went back and said she didn't find it. And she said, "Well, it' s under something; you go back." And she went back there and kinda looked under the culvert and sure enough, (laughter) the dollar was laying back under there. And the woman lost a--somebody stole her horse up there, and she asked her about it. She told her, "Well, now, don't you worry about the horse." She say, "That horse'll come right by your house; 'twill be a man driving it." And it wasn't but a week, I think, after that before that horseman drove right by her house. She stopped him, got the law and got her horse, too. And then, that glass company over there, they lost a typewriter and a Reverend Roe. Reel 12-p.5. adding-machine, and they came over there and asked her where it was. And she told them it was out there in the country under a haystack. And they went out there and they scraped aroudn there, and they didn't find it, and the come back. She said, "Well, it's out there." Say, she say, "Now you dig a hole there, it's down there." So they went back, and sure enough they had a dug a hole there, and set the things in there, and got both of them machines. And then on one occasion (Omission) that any sinner could do, because they pose as Christians and get the confidence of the people, they teach false doctrines, and then they practice all kind of a sinful things, you know, in their presence and lead lots of people on. Sure I had a man here running me a meeting-- his brother was a member of our church- and he'd come here and preach, and go off that night, you know, and get him spoeting women and have a big time, and he got the the place he's so drunk he couldn't preach, so he wanted to-- Well, he was a good preacher, youknow, and he had got the people, you know, was liking him fine. And he thought he could put me out and git the church, and I give him enough money so he went and paid down on a car and got a car, and he carried me on to Fort Worth with him to see my niece over there. And when we was leavingg he had persuaded a girl to go with us -- I didn't know it--and she's at the drugstore down there-- a d I picked her up and carried her. And he come back and told the people that I carried the girl and got her over there and left me and her in the house and didn't know what we'd done and all like a that, you know, and I went to my niece's house, you know, and he went there with me and the girl with me, and all went in. Well, she made um wel- come, you know, and shewwanted to go see me privately and we got talking and I come out, he had left. And then the girl told me that he said that she wanted me. And I just thought so strange of him. And then I started them to go and catch me a bus and get on home; but on account Reverend Roe. Reel 12-p.6. of the girl being there and her mama and all of em a member of my church, and she beged me so till I just toughed it out and come on back with um and he come o n back and put all that stuff out in my church. I just sent him on away. And, you know, that same rascal had the gall to come back here and want to preach for me against I wouldn't even ask him say his prayers in my church. A: What did you tell him? R: Before? A: No, what did you tell him when he came back? R: Oh. You see, he tried to put everyth ng on me, says I had told so on, so on, so on, so on. I said I told them about nothing. Then I found outthat he was trying to raise a racket, you know, and he did get up quite a little stew over there, and so he would deny this things to me but he would tell the people all around, but he denied to me be- cause he was afraid just to come out, you know, and say I did thus and so, and then he was afraid of my boy, too; my boy were here. And I just stopped the meeting then and let him go, and I had--it was on Fri- day night--when I stopped the meeting, and he came back here Sunday, and I preached myself. He thought, you know, that the people liked his preaching so well until I wouldn't be able to do much good. But he come back here that Sunday and when I got through with my sermon, he say, "Well, you's a good preacher (laughter); you's a good preacher, all right." What do you want to do? He went off and wrote back to his brother, asked him hand't he got shut of me yet. But I'm still here (laughter) and he's still knocking around yet. But he's just a devil, and we've got lots of em and lots of em is just known. You can't even take that man in your house. You can take a man in our house, and if you had to git up and go off after something, the next morning he'd be down in there after your wife before you got back, or daughter, or anything like that. He's just bad. And got plenty of em that don't Reverend Roe. Reel 12-p.7. preach the Gospel. We got many of em that don't do nothing but get up in the pulpit and make a pretty noise, just holler and host, and they got some people that shout over it. [*Another cure - confounds the conjurors*] Reverend Roe. Reel 12. P. 1 - tool All hhe people over there [that] call themselves conjurors, you know, and they was waiting on that woman, and they chaaged her $50.00, and they told me, you know, about how the woman's acting and all that, and by what they told me I knew just what was the matter with her, [but I] and just fixed up one of the old remedies my mother used to make, you know. [I put it] in a [fine] 1/2 a pint bottle andI told them, "Now, you just this over there and giveher a dose of it tonight, give her half of it tonight when you get there and at midnight you give her the other half." And they - taken it - went over there and give it to her , and she got up the next mor- ning and she cook breakfast had be n down there, they'd been working down there two or three weeks. And they took that woman's money, they taken her money. And when they came back you know - they all came back to where I was staying, in fact, I was staying at one of the women's hous. And I was out in the [morning] lawn when they come back [with Indians] - all of um went in, and I walked up, in the chimley corner & listen at um, I wanted to [hear] see what they say in, you know, and they was talking about themoney, about the $50.00. Well, they began to talk about me and seen than they had been [wasn't] convinced that I was[n't] a [kind of their fellow] a great conjurer & knowed something as [cause] I come from Louisiana, you know. So I listened at em [here and there] and I just walked in as though I'd [just been there] knew just everything, you know, and I says "Well, [what is] the woman up?" They say, "Oh yeah, she got and [went and drank] ? it." I say where's that [You know, as though they went and picked it out you know, as though I had] $50.00 [you know] you all got from um? They [can't] kinda look at one another. I say, "[Quit your showing box.] Put it here on the table" A: What? R: I said, "Put it here on the table." The little table in there. They put it [here] on the table - there was four of em in there - and I took and give em $5 a piece , and I took and put the other in my pocket (laughter). I cured the woman. A: And they were afraid of you. R: Oh yeah, they thought I was a great conjur[or]. And that's one o f [*Conjuring*] [*Another cures a case of strychnine poisoning*] Reverend Roe. Reel 12. P. 2 the reasons that I lost all confidence in anybody that they could do those things, you know. [And] How every one of those people come to me, try to get me to learn them something. I didn't know anything about con- jur[ing], in fact, I never have believed in it. A: [Coiting] Going back to your growing up time, there were lots of people in the country that beli eved it. R: Oh yes, they just [had] have a whole lot of different stuff they'd sew around the house there, stuff they'd put out [in front] tur um, and all like a that, you know, but I never have believed in it. They never could make me believe in no reason in it. I believe that if a person could put some kind of a poison in you or something on you, why, [would] they could hurt you. [Meenie Medea] Minnie McGill [the] a one-eyed fellow there, was courtin a woman and there was an old fellow there he had a wife & that was his sweetheart, and she was washing Old Man [Meenie's] Minnie's clothes, and he got him some strych- nine and just put it [on] all in them clothes, and when Old Man Meenie [wore] went over there & tak[ing]en a bath a put those clothes on and - when he gin to gether - started home he [got to get] hot, you know; that stuff would get to work, my I guess, through the pores of [your] his skin, and by the time he got over there to our house - it was a mile or two - [in the] hot summertime - he had just almost gone crazy & he was a-trotting. And my mother seen him looking peculiar and she told [him to] my brother go over there to the road [immediately] & meet him. And he went overthere, and they brought him over to our house, and they stripped him. I don't know how she knew it, but she had em to strip him, and she fixed something and bathed him it & he stayed there that day and next morning he was all right. And she told him what had been done. A: She must have been a wonderfulwoman, you mother. R: Yessir. She told him what had happened, that somebody had put strychnine in hsi clothes. [Yeah] So we jsut said it must have been true (laughter). And it was running that fellow crazy, He was just [*People have stopped believing in conjur*] Reverend Roe. Reel 12. P. 3 running like somebody mad[e him]. Well now I believe if people, if there's something put on you or get in you can hurt you, why, that's poison. [I'm] That's no conjur[er]. But say somebody put something down, why I don't believe nothing like that. A: Well, Reverend, haven't members of your congregation come to you to get you to help them lay ghosts thst were bothering them, spirits and things? Noo conjure, but just supernatural things, haven't they ever cometo you for help like that?. R: No, not for nothing like that I never had [them] any of them come to me, mostly for some kind of sickness that [they think they] my they conjured my something bathhot and I always get that out of them; I [bak] talk that out of them because I don't believe it, you know. And I tell you it's a very foolish thing. And there was an old man there in a [hibe] white fellow's house on a farm, and they wnated to get him out, they wanted some renters, you know, and he wanted to get the old man out [bu] and he wouldn't move, so there's a fellow [some say] told him "I move him." He said, "Well, I give you $5 to get himout." And he went and got him some flour, and he went all around that house that night and just put a trail of that flour all the way around his house and went on back home. And the next mornign that old fellow got up, and he looked out the door and seen it, and looked out the winodw and seen it, all around his house. and he got [in] him some clothes & got [in a robe] up in his answers, and he taken [andstarts d] a running, start off that prch, jumped [off] over it [that porch and started running (laughter). Yeh,] and they couldn't, a sheriff couldn't got him back in that house (laughter). He thought [itxwas cursed] somebody had conjured him. Well, that was [how children had do, that is] down here in Red River, in Red River bottom [everybody., yessir] he believed in it, you know. But our people don't believe in [it] that so much now like they used to. No, they don't, just a few of em. And then another thing, we have so many people around that's making moay on such stuff as that, and they claim that they can cure diseases and they get our people there tell another birth & and they tell em on such-and-such a time didn't such-and-such a thing happen[ed], didn't [*Iuzmar who can find things*] Revered Ree. Reel 12 P. 4 you eat something or didn't you -- something like that. And may be they'll hit it, you know, maybe [they] you did eat or drink something at such-and- such a time like they said. Well, they got you then. They fix you up a little stuff and get a lot of money out of you. As long as people can [pull] trot you out of money on a thing, brother, they'll use it. They [go] pour [en] water and all like a that. Lose something, she tell em where to find it, and they find it, [no] But I don't fool[ing] with it A: You think she really can do this. R: She've did it. There was a woman came by one day and had lost a dollar, It was a silver dollar - , and she told her, says, "I lost a dollar 'tween here and town." And she just [talking] thought a moment, she says, "Well, you lost that dollar down in that little [cover] culvert down there." And she went back down there, she looked and she didn't see it, and se went back and said she didn't find it. And she said well, it's under something; you go back." And she went back there and kinda looked under the [cover] culvert, and sure enoggh, (laughter) the dollar waslaying [right] back under there. And the woman lost a -- somebody stole her horse up there, and she asked her about it. She told her, "Well, now, don't you worry about the horse." She say, "That horse will come right by your house; [enough'll] twill be s man driving it." And it wasn't but a week, I think, after that before that horse [went over by her and] - men drove right by her house she stopped [in] him, got the [Lord] law & [and th] got her horse, too. And then, that glass company over there, they lost a typewriter and a adding-machine, and they came over there and asked her where it was. And she told them it was out there in the country [in the] under a haystack. And they went out there and they scraped around there, and they didn't find it, and they come back. [They] She said, "[Now what about this] Well, it's out there", [Well] say. she say 1/2 "Now you dig down there; it's down there." So they went back, and sure enought they had dug a hole there, and set the thing in there and had that hay over it. And they found it, found it down in there, and [*Trouble in church - false accusation by rival preacher*] Reverend Roe. Reel 12. P. 5 got [that] both of them machines. And then on[e] one occasions (omission) that any sinner could do, because they pose as Christians and get the confidence of the people, they teach false doctrines, and then they practice all kind of a sinful things, you know, in their presence and lead lots of people on. Sure, I had a man here running me a meeting - his brother was a member or [my] our church - and he'd come [to] here and preach, and go off that night you know and get him some [sponting?] women and have a big time, and he got to the place he'n so drunk he couldn't preach, so he wanted to -- Well, he was a good preacher, you know, [Well] and he had got the people, you know, was liking fine. And he thought he could put me out and git the church, and I give him enough money so he went and paid down on [the] a car & got a car, nd he carried me on to Fort [West] Worth with him to see my niece over there. And [believing] when we was leaving he had [the sweet of] persuaded a girl to go with us - didn't know it - and she's at the drugstore [know] down there - and [he] I picked her up and carried her. And he come back and told the people that I carried the girl and [went] got her over there and left me [hope] & hear in the house and [I went me down] didn't know what he'd done and all like a that, you know, and I went to my niece's house, you know, and he went there with me, the girl with [him[ me, and [they] we all went in. Well, she made [him something] him welcome, you know, and she wanted to see me privately and [I] we got talking and I come out, he had left. And then the girl told me that he said that she wanted me. And I [guess that's] just thought so strange of him; And then I started then to go and catch me abus and get on home; but on account of the girl being there & her mama all of our a member of my church, and hse begged me so [to] tell I just [stuffed down] toughed it out and come on back with [him] we and he come on back and [brought] put all that stuff [right] out [here] in my church. I just sent him on away. And, you know, that same rascal has the gall to come back here and want to preach for me again. I wouldn't even [but] allow him say his prayers in my church. A: What did you tell him? R: Before? Reverend Roe. Reel 12. P. 6 A: No, what did you tell when he came back? R: Oh. You see, he tried to put everything on me, [said that] says I had told so on , so on, so on, so on. I said I told [him] them about nothing. Then I foudn out that he [had worked it] was trying to raise a racket, you know, and he did getup quite a little stew over there, and so he would deny this thing to me but he would tell the people all around, but he denied to me because he was a [farid] fraid just to come out, you know, and say I did th[i]us and so, and then he was afraid of my boy, too; my boy were here. And I just stopped the meeting then and let him go, and I had -- it was on Friday night -- when I stopped the meeting, and he came back here Sunday, and I preached myself. He thought, you know, that the people liked his preaching so well until I wouldn't be able to do much good. But he came back here that Sunday & when I got through with my sermon he say [, yessir.] "Well you's [was] a good preacher (laughter); [he's] you's a good preacher all right. "What [are] do you [going] want to do? He went [back] off & wrote back to his brother [mother], asked him hadn't he got [rid] shut of me yet. But I'm still here (laughter) and he's still knocking around [here] yet. But he's just a devil [possessed of the devil], and we've got lots of em and lots of em is just known. You can't even take that man in your house. You [culd] can take a [at] man in our house, and if you had to git up and go off after something, the next morning he'd be [??? laying there] in there after your wife and before you got back, or daughter, or anything like that. He's just bad. And we got plenty of em that don't preach the Gospel. We got many of em that don't do nothing but get up in the pulpit and make a pretty noise, just holler and hoot, and they got some people that shout over it. Reverend Roe. Reel 12, P. 1 All the people over there that call themselves conjurors, you know, and they was wating on that woman, and they chargeher $50.00, and they told me, you know, about how the owman's acting and all thatk, and by what they told me I knew just what was the matter with her, but I just fixed up one of the old remedies my mother used to make, you know. I put it in a fine bottle and I told them, "Now, you just this over there and giveher a dose of it tonight, give her half of it tonight when you get there and at midnight you givecher the other half." And they went over there and give it to her, and she got up the next morning and she had be n down there, they'd been working down there two or three weeks, and they took that woman's money, they taken her money. And they all came back to where I was staying, in fact, I was staying in one of the women's houses. And I was out in the morning when they come back with Indians, and I walked up, I wanted to hear what they say, you know, and they was talking about themoney, about the $50.00. Well, they began to talk about me and seen me that they wasn't convinced that I wasn't a kind of their fellow cause I come from Louisiana, you know. So I listened at em here and there. I just walked in as though I'd just been there, you kn ow, and I says, "Well, what is up?" They say, "Oh yeah, she got and went and drank it." You know, as though they went and picked it out you know, as though I had $50.00, you know. They can't look at one another. I say, "Quit your showing to." A: What? R: I said, "Put it here on the table." The little table in there. Put it here on the table, there was four of em in there, and I took and give em $5 a piece, and I took and put the other in my pocket (laughter). I cured the woman. A: And they were afraid of you. R: Oh yeah, they thought I was a great conjuror. And that's one of Reverend Roe. Reel 12. P. 2 the reasons that I lost all confidence in anybody that they could do those things, you know. And one of those people come to me, try to get me to learn them something. I didn't know anything about conjuring; in fact, I never have believed in it. A: Getting back to your growing up tie, there were lots of people in the country that believed it. R: Oh yes, they just had a whole lot of different stuff they'd sew around the house there, stuff they'd put out in front, and all like a that, you know, but I never have believed in it. They never could make me believe in foolishness like that; I just couldn't, I couldn't see no reason in it. I believe that if a person could put some kind of a poison in you, something on you, why, would hurt you. Meenie Medea, the one-eyed fellow there, was courting a woman and there was an old fellow there he had a wife, that was his sweetheart, and she was washing Old Man Meenie's clothes, and he got him some strych-nine and just put it on in them clothes, and when Old Man Meenie were over there taking a bath and put those clothes on and started home he got to get hot, you know; that stuff would get to work, I guess, through the pores of your skin, and by the time he got over there to our house - it was a mile or two - in the summertime - he had just almost gone crazy. And my mother seen him looking peculiar and she told him to go over there to the road immediately. And he went over there, and they brought him over to our house, and they stripped him. I don't know how she knew it, but she had em strip him, and she fixed something and bathed him in. He stayed there that day and next morning he was all right. And she told him what had been done. A: Must have been a wonderful woman, you mother. R: Yessir. She told him what had happened, that somebody had put strychnine in his clothes. Yeah, so we just said it must have been true (laughter). And it was running that fellow crazy, he was just Reverend Roe, Reel 12, p. 3 running like somebody made him. Well now I believe if people, if something put on you or get in you can hurt you, why, that's poison. I'm no conjuror. But say somebody put something down, why, I don't believe nothing like that. A: Well, Reverend, haven't membersof your congregation come to you to help them lay ghosts that were bothering them, spirits and things? Not conjure, but just spuernatural things, haven't they ever cometo you for help like that? R: No, not for nothing like that I never had them come to me, mostly for some kind of sickness that they think they conjure, and I always get that out of them; I talk that out of them because I don't believe it, you know. And I tell you it's a very foolish thing. And there was an old man there in a kite fellow's house on a farm, and they wanted to get him out, they wanted some renters, you know, and he wanted to get the old man out, but he woulnd't move, so there's a fellow come say "I move him." He said, "Well, I give you $5 to get himout." And he went and got him some flour, and he went all around that house that night and just put a trail of that flour all the way around his house and went on back home. And the next morning that old fellow got up, and he looked out the door and seen it, and looked out the window and seen it, all around his house. And he got in some clothes, got in a robe, and he take and started running, jumped off that porch and started running (laughter). Yeh, and they couldn't, a sheriff couldn't got him back in that house (laughter). He thought somebody had cursed him. Well, that was how children had do, that is everybody, yessir, he believedin it, you know. But our people don't believe in it so much now like they used to. No, they don't; just a few of 'em. And then another thing, we have so many people around that's making money on such stuff as that, and they claim that they can cure diseases and they get our people there and they tell em on such-and-such a time such-and-such a thing happened, didn't Reverend Roe. Reel .2. P. 4 you eat something, didn't you -- something like that. And may be they'll hit it, you know, may be they did eat or drink something at such-and- such a time like they said. Well, they got you then. They fix you up a little stuff and get a lot of money out of you. As long as people can pull you out of money on a thing, brother, they'll use it. They go on and all like a that. Lose something, she tell em where to find it, and they find it, no fooling. A: You think she really can do this. R: She did it. There was a woman came by one day and had lost a dollar, it was a silver dollar -, and she told her, says, "I lost a dollar 'tween here and town." And she just talking, she says, "Well, you lost that dollar down in that little cover down there." And she went back down there, she looked and she didn't see it, and se went back and said she didn't find it. And she said well, it's under something; you go back. And she went back there and kinda looked under the cover, and sure enough, (laughter) the dollar was laying right under there. And the woman lost a -- somebody stole her horse up there, and she asked her about it. She told her, "Well, now, don't you worry about the horse." She say, "That horse will come right by your house; there'll be a man driving it." And it wasn't but a week, I think, after that before that horse went over by her and she stopped it, got the load, and the horse, too. And then, that glass company over there, they lost a typewriter and a adding-machine, and they came over there and asked her where it was. And she told them it was out there in the country in the haystack. And they went out there and they scraped around there, and they didn't find it, and they come back. They said, "Now what about this?" Well. she say, "Now you dig down there; it's down there." So they went back, and sure enought they had dug a hole there, and set the thing in there and had that hay over it. And they found it, found it down in there, and Reverend Roe. Reel 12. P. 5 got that machines. And then on one occasion that any sinner could do, because they pose as Christians and get the confidence of the people, they teach false doctrines, and then they practice all kind of a sinful things, you know, in their presence and lead lots of people on. Sure, I had a man here running me a meeting - his brother was a member of my church - and he'd come in and preach, and go off that night and get him some sproting women and have a big time, and he got to the place so drunk he couldn't preach, so he wanted to -- Well, he was a good preacher, you know, Well, he had got the people, you know, liking him. And he thought he could put me out and get the church, and I give him enough money so he went and paid down on the car, got a car, and he carried me on to Fort West with him to see my niece over there. And believing he had the sweet of a girl to go with us, and she's at the drugstore know, and he picked her up and carried her. And he come back and told the people that I carried the girl and went over there and left me there in the house and I went me down and all like a that, you know, and I went to my niece's house, you know, and he went there with me, the girl with him, and they went in. Well, she made him something, you know, and she wanted to see me and I got talking and I come out, he had left. And then the girl told me that he said the she wanted me. And I guess that's strange. And then I started to go and catch me a bus and get on home. But on account of the girl being there, a member of my church, and she begged me so to, I just stuffted down and come on back with him and come on back and brought all that stuff right here in my church. I just sent him on away. And, you know, that same rascal had the gall to come back here and want to preach for me again! I wouldn't even let him say his prayers in my church. A: What did you tell him? R: Before? Reverend Roe. Rell 12. P. 6 A: No, what did you tell when he came back? R: Oh. You see, he tried to put everything on me, said I had told so on, so on, so on, so on. I said I told him about nothing. Then I foudn out that he had worked it and he did getup quite a little stew over there, and so he wouldn deny this thing to me but he would tell the people all around, but he denied to me because he was a farid just to come out, you know, and say I did this and so, and then he was afraid of my boy, too; my boy were here. And I just stopped the meeting then and let him go, and I had -- it was on Friday night -- when I stopped the meeting, and he came back here Sunday, and I preached myself. He thought, you know, that people liked his preaching so well untilI wouldn't be able to do much good. But he come back here that Sunday when I got through with my sermon, yessir. But he was a good preacher(laughter); he's a good preacher all right. What are you going to do? He webt back to his mother, asked him hadn't he got rid of me yet. But I'm still here (laughter) and he's still knocking around here. But he's possessed of the devil, and we've got lots of em and lots of em is just known. Yo can't even take that man in your house. You culd take at man in our house, and if you had to git up and go off after something, the next morning he'd be laying after your wife before you got back, or daughter, or anything like that. He's just bad. And we got pletnty of em that don't preach the Gospel. We got many of em that don't do nothing but get up in the pulpit and make a pretty noise, just holler and hoot, and they got some people that shout over it. Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 1 [*More false accusations*] [Yessir, I used to live in] Celeste, Texas. There was a deacon out there that had a sweetheart[,] and he had been fooling out of all her money before I [became] begin pastor there, and after I beg[a]in pastoring, I taught them different, and she would come to church every Sunday, and bring me a nice present. This felow didn't like it. And he began to s'picion me, [and] when there wasn't any improper relation between me and the woman. But he thought so. And on one occasion I was preaching a sermon and I knew what he had been saying and how he had tried to scandalize my name, and I told a story -- want to hear that? -- about an old [goat] dog we had. His name was [Kolie] Coaly, and he lived principally on dead carcasses, and when he'd eat all he could, he'd chew off a hunk and he'd bring it up [from] in the field and bury it, & then he'd lay out in the shade and watch it, and every time a cow, horse or dog or anything went to-wards that meat, [Kolie] Coley would see about him. So I told that story in the pulpit, and then I asked [them] um if any of them had any meat buried around there, [cause] if they did[n't] [have] not to be uneasy, I didn't want their meat. Hecbecome so incensed about it until he wanted to raise a ruckus with me. The women was holding him when I found out that he was mad. And on that occasion I happened to have with me a [mower's] large knife that one of my trustees left with me that day. I opened the knife. I told the women to let him alone, that he was just looking for a man and I was a man. Just turn him loose. I walked up and caught him by [the] his shoulder[,] & led him outdoors and told him, "If [you] he wanted anything that I had, I's [was] ready." He soon come down and went away with a promise that he wouldn't bother me any more. But he went to a white man in the city and told him a lot of stories about me, and when I came on my next visit, a lot of my members met me at the train and told me I'd better catch the next train and go back because this white man was going to kill me. And I told them I was going up and see the white man, and they tried to prevail with Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 2 me [and] to keep me from going, but I went on anyhow and walked in and spoke to him. He spoke to me very nicely. And I said to him, "[A] My [group of] people met me at the train there a while ago, and told me that you were going to kill me, and I wondered what for. I hadn't never did [nay]anything to you. I'd always tried to live a gentleman here, and I wondered why." And I asked him if it was true, and he said to me, "Some of these fellows has been telling me some things about you, but I couldn't hardly believe it." [*The white boss intervenes*] And this fellow had told him that I was trying to take his cook away. So he asked me about it and I told him I had no other place that I could use his cook better than there in the church in the little city. So he told me then, well, he didn't believe I was a man of that kind and said to me, "When you come here, always come to my house and get your meals." I thanked him, and then he turned and called his cook and told her to prepare a meal for me, and prepare me a nice meal, and if she didn't have all she needed at home there to [go] come to the store and get it. And with that promise I went on out of the store. The group of members was standing out looking for him to bring out my dead body, and they asked me what the man said to me, what did he do. I told them he had invited me to take dinner with him, and I was preparing now to go down, they was preparing my dinner. So I went on down to the house and had a very nice and very pleasant stay there afterwards. How is that? A: That's fine. Do you suppose he was living with his cook in addition to having her cook for him? Is that why he was --? R: No, this white man? No. A: Do you suppose he really had said it? R: He [heard this] hurt hi[??] fellow and the people both, trying to do like that. Now I teache[d]s my people to trust in God and be humble, and I say if you do that, God will bring you out in His way. And I simply believe Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 3. that because why should I stir up violence and cause a lot of trouble; it wouldn't do any good; it wouldn't do the colored people any good and it wouldn't do the white folks any good. But if I could make the white folks friends to me, I [could] can help my folks and them, too. I preach a Gospel to them that will make the colored people live the right kind of a life, you know, and be humble, and so on. And then I preach a Gospel that'll make the white man treat him right. A: Well, you don't preach that there are inequalities among the races do you? [*Preaches non-resistance*] R: [Oh] Naw no, I don't do that, I don't do that. I just preach, I just preach according, you know, to the condition, you know. I know those things is existing. I know it shouldn't be, but it is. And I try to teach both out of it. Since you in it, you have no way to get out of it; you can't fight. The [oly thing] onlyist way you can do is to beat the other fellow living; live a good life. And I teach them that if you live the right kind of a life right here, the white folks will treat you better than they will some of their white folks. And they will. You know, it takes a life, and it'll [will] win anywhere--a good life is well spoken of anywhere. Well, I teach that same thing to the white folks if they come around, you know. And I think I can make them see the neccessity, you know, of treating the colored people better, and then I teach them the fact that whatever you sow, you reap. I put a little [here and] tear in there, and then a little hope of reward in there, and it'll have effect on a good many of em. I have preached in places where people had been awful mean, and by my preaching and my life there, it changed [om] um a whole lot, and they was a lot better. And they would be nice to me; they would honor me. I've had them even, the white deacons of other churches, to invite me in their homes and give me a meal and sit down and talk with me. Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 4 [*Preaching to white folks.*] On one occasion, when they was about to break up the Baptist Church, the Christian Church, the Camellite--they were about [go] to break it up, and so the Carmellite preacher met me down there. He come to my church, and when I got through with him, why, [(laughter)] he hushed; he didn't bother me and he soon left there. And so they had me co come down. I didn't go to the church to preach, but I went down to the Baptist deacon's house, and I taught them the doctring and made them see it. And that saved the church. [*The doctrine*] He was teaching on the [generational] regeneration of baptismal and he claim[ed], you know, that you wasn't saved until you went in the water and come out, and the Holy Spirit come to you after yo come [out] up. You had to be batized in the water to be saved. He was teaching that doctring. And I talked to him, you know, The Bible said God [give] [shall give] so lo?? the ??? us all to be gotten, that whosoever shall lead and who shall [not] have a everlasting life. I said faith is the thing that saves you. I said faith in God will make you willing to obey God's commandment, and when you become [will] willing to obey God's commandments, then on the ground of that faith He saves you, and then you don't go [to] t be baptzed to be saved; you got to be baptized because you are saved. And to prove it, you know, I [just] spoke of the life of Abraham and the [old Elias] ????? ? Isaac, see. He never did offer [the] up Isaac, but he was perfectly willing to do so, and because he considered in his mind to do that act, why, the Lord taken it as it was done and blessed him as though he had did it. And the Bible says "He offered up his son." Well, I said, now when you become willing, you see, to take on Christ by baptism, on the ground of your faith, He saves you. And then I showed them the fact if that was not so then The Gospel didn't meet man's condition. A man might be lost in the desert where he'd never [might] [never be] found, and if he wanted to be saved, how could he without no preacher there to baptize him? He couldn't. But the Gospel is fixed Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 5 so any man can be saved under any condition, and that condition is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. A: Reverend, what do you hope to see when you pass on out of this world? R: I hope to go to a better world. I have that confidence in God's word[, and] that there is a land, there is a place prepared for the faithful. I believe that. A: What do you think it will be like there? [*What heaven will be like--the just will judge the unjust.*] R: Well, I tell you, my honestly belief is it'll be this world, at least a great part of my life after death will be right here. And the Bible teaches that that [you] we'll reign with Christ here a thousand years, and it said the saints shall judgethe nations. They'll set on thrones with Christ in Jerusalem. That's the Bible. Well, that's gonna happen; it's coming to pass. I believe that because the Bible teaches it as God's word, and I believe that the righteous will sit on thrones and they'll judge the world. And I believe that if you're saved, if you've been a man that thought you was better than I and have mistreated me because of that i-dea, I believe you'll be just as far below me in that day as I am you now. If you liked it and wanted it to be carried on and use your influence in that way, I believe you'll reap what you sow. --[Yeah] Hunh!-- I don't wish it so. But if it's so, it's just true. I wish no man harm--No--I'm very well satisfied at the humble place that I occupy in the world. [*Rev. Roe is above the predjudice*] I've adjusted myself to conditions because I know one thing--no man can live happy and peaceable until he can adjust himself to the conditions around him. I don't see myself as part of it. I see myself as one trying to make it better. I'm [leading] ??ing out of that atmosphere. It doesn't touch me. The prejudice and all a that is something aside from me. I'm satisfied with God. I could go off [here on that] yonder and get in[to] a cave on the hillside and have my food and my clothes [and stay out there] & be happy. That's just the way I feel. I'd like to meet you, and I'd like to talk with you and I'd like to Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 6 teach you [and tell] until you to have that same spirit in you that you can be happy, that you could adjust yourself in this world, and be happy when you had plenty and happy when you didn't have it. And we can get-- because all of our trouble is in our minds [yessir,] --the sorrows-- all of that's in your mind. But [accept] simply believe that whatever comes, that is best for me because God set all things [. We] should work together for good that them that love Him. I just believe that. Reverend Roe, Reel 13. P. 1 Yessir, I used to live in Texas. There was a deacon out there that had a sweetheart, and he had been fooling out of all of her money before I became popular there, and after I began pastoring, I taught different, and she would come to church every Sunday, and bring me a nice present. This felow didn't like it, and he began to s'picion me, and there's wasn't any improper relation between me and the woman, but he thought so. I was preaching a sermon and I knew what he had been saying and how he had tried to scandalize my name, and I told a story -- want to hear that? -- about an old goat we had. His name was Kolie, and he lived principally on dead carcasses, and when He'd eat all he could, he'd chew off a hunk and he'd bring it up from the field and bury it, lay out in the shade and watch it, and every time a cow, horse or dog or anything went to-wards that meat, Kolie would see about him. So I told that story in the pulpit, and then I asked them if any of them had any meat buried around there, cause they didn't have to be uneasy, I didn't want their meat. Hecbecome so incensed about it until he wanted to raise a ruckus with me. The women was holding him when I found out that he was mad, and on that occasion I happened to have with me a mower's knife that one of my trustees left with me that day. I opened the knife; I told the women to let him alone, that he was just looking for a man and I was a man, just turn him loose. I walked up and caught him by the shoulder, led him outdoors and told him, "If you wanted anything that I had, I was ready." He sonn come down and went away with a promise that he wouldn't bother me any more. But he went to a white man in the city and told him a lot of stories about me, and when I came on my next visit, a lot of my members met me at the train and told me I'd better catch the next train and go back because this white man was going to kill me. And I told them I was going up and see the white man, and they tried to prevail with Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 2 me and keep me from going, but I went on anyhow and walked in and spoke to him. He spoke to me very nicely, and I said to him, "A group of people met me at thectrain there a while ago, and told me that you were going to kill me, and I wondered what for. I hadn't never did naything to you. I'd always tried to live a gentleman here, and I ondered why." And I asked him if it was true, and he said to me, "Some of these fellows has been telling me things about you, but I couldn't hardly believe it." And this fellow had told him that I was trying to take his cook away. So he asked me about it and I told him I had no other place that I could use his book better than there in the church in the little city. So he told me then, well, he didn't believe I was a man of that kind and said to me, "When you come here, always come to my house and get your meals." I thanked him, and then he turned and called his cook and told her to prepare a meal for me, and prepare me a nice meal, and if she didn't have all she needed at home there to go to the store and get it. And with that promise I went on out of the store. The grop of members was standing out looking for him to bring out my dead body, and they asked me what the man said to me, what did he do. I told them he invited me to take dinner ith him, and I was preparing now to go down, they was preparing my dinner. So I went on down to the house an had a very niceand very pleasant stay there afterwards. How is that? A: That's fine. He was living with his cook in addition to having her cook for him? Is that why he was -- ? R: No, this white man? No. A: Do you suppose he really had said it? R: He heard this fellow and the people both, trying to do like that. Now I teached my people to trust in God and be humble, and I say if you do that, God will bring you out in His way. And I simply believe Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 3. that because why should I stir up violence and cause a lot of trouble; it wouldn't do any good; it wouldn't do the colored people any good, and it wouldn't do the white folks any good. But if I could make the white folks friends to me, I could help my folks and them, too. I preach a Gospel to them that will make the colored people live the right kind of life, you know, and be humble, and so on. And then I preach a Gospel that'll make the white man treat him right. A: Well, you don't preach that there are inequalities among the races do you ? R: Oh no, I don't do that, I don't do that. I just preach, I just preach according, you know, to the condition, you know. I know those things is existing. I know it shouldn't be, but it is, and I try to teach both out of it. Since you in it, you have no way to get out of it; you can't fight. The only thing you can do is to beat the other fellow living; live a good life. And I teach them that if you live the right kind of life right here, the white folks will treat you better than some of their white folks. And they will. You know, it takes a life, and it will win anywhere; a good life is well spoken of anywhere. Well, I teach that same thing to the white folks if they come around, you know. And I think I can make them see the necessity, you know, of treating the colored people better, and then I teach them the fact that whatsoever you sow, you reap. I put a little here and there, and then a little hope of reward in there, and it'll have effect on a good many of em. I have preached in places where people had been awful mean, and by my preaching and my life there, it changed em a whole lot, and they was a lot better. And they would be nice to me; they would honor me. I've had them even, the white deacons of other churches, invite me in their homes and give me a meal and sit down and talk with me. Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 4 On one occasion, when they was about to break up the Baptist Church, the Christian Church, the Cameliegh ? Carmelite? -- they were about to break it up, and so the Carmelite preacher met me down there. He come to my church, and when I got through with him, why, (laughter) he hushed; he didn't bother me and he soon left there. And so they had me to come down. I didn't go to the church to preach, but I went down to the Baptist deacon's house, and I taught them the doctrine and made them see it. And that saved the church. He was teaching on the generational baptismal and claimed, you know, that you wasn't saved until you went in the water and come out, and the Holy Spirit come to you after you come out. You had to be baptized in the water to be saved. He was teaching that doctrine. And I talked to him, you know; the Bible said God shall give us all to be gotten, that whosoever shall lead and who shall have a everlasting life. I said faith is the thing that saves you. I said faith in God will make you willing to obey God's commandment, and when you become will to obey God's commandments, then on the ground of that faith He saves you, and then you don't go to be baptized to be saved; you got to be baptized because you are saved. And to prove it, you know, I just spoke of the life of Abraham and the old Elias, see. He never did offer the ( ?), but he was perfectly willing to do so, and because he considered in his mind to do that act, why, the Lord taken it as it was done and blessed him as though he had did it. And the Bible says he offered up his son. Well, I said, now when you become willing, you see, to take on Christ by baptism, on the ground of your faith, He saves you. And then I showed them the fact if that was not so then the Gospel didn't meet man's condition. A man might be lost in the desert where he might never be found, and if he wanted to be saved, how could he without no preacher there to baptize him? He couldn't. But the Gospel is fixed Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 5 so any man can be saved under any condition, and that condition is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. A: Reverend, what do you hope to see when you pass on out of this world? R: I hope to go to a better world. I have that confidence in God's word, and there is a land, there is a place prepared for the faithful. I believe that A: What do you think it will be like there? R: Well, I tell you, my honestly belief is it'll be this world, at least a great part of my life after death will be right here. And the Bible teaches that, that you'll reign with Christ here a thousand years, and it said the pants shall judge the nations. They'd set on thrones with Christ in Jerusalem. That's the Bible. Well, that's gonna happen; it's coming to pass. I believe that because the Bible teaches it as God's word, and I believe that the righteous will set on thrones and they'll judge the world. And I believe that if you're saved, if you've been a man that thought you was better than I and have mistreated me because of that idea, I believe you'll be just as far below me in that day as I am you now. If you liked it and wanted it to be carried on and use your influence in that way I believe you'll reap what you sow. -- Yeah -- I don't wish it so, but if it's so, it's just true. I wish no man no harm - no - I'm very well satisfied at the humble place that I occupy in the world. I've adjusted myself to conditions because adjust himself to the conditions around him. I don't see myself as part of it; I see myself as one trying to make it better. I'm leading out of that atmosphere: it doesn't touch me, the prejudice and all a that is something aside from me; I'm satisfied with God. I would go off here on that and get into a cave on the hillside and have my food and my clothes and stay out there; that's just the way I feel. I'd like to meet you, and I'd like to talk with you and I'd like to Reverend Roe. Reel 13. P. 6 teach you and tell you to have that same spirit in you thatyou can be happy, that you could adjust yourself in this world, and be happy when you had plenty and happy when you didn't have it. And we can get -- because all of our trouble is in our minds, yessir, all of that's in your mind. But accpet that whatever comes, that is best for me because God set all things. We should work together for good that them that loveHim. I just believe that Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 1 [*Roe ??? fighter in his community when he was a boy*] I haven't always been as I am now. When I was a young man, I would fight anybody that bothered me, anything, man or animal; I just didn't [care] ????. And I never bothered anybody[; I] and never give anybody any [cause] call to bother me. I had several fights with white boys in a place where it was dangerous even to insult one. But I was always in the right, and I never was bothered about it. I'd defended myself because I believed I had a right to, but I never imposed on no one else. A: Well, weren't you afraid the whites would gang up on you? R: I didn't think [much] about that, I didn't think about that. I just [felt] thought whatever come, I'd take care of it as it come. It was just in my mind; I was just brave and wasn't afraid of nothing. I don't know just -- I can't understand myself [as] since I've gotten older and looked back on the dangers through which I came, the [way] places where they killed our people--I've [I remember once in] even been driving my wagon along at night, and the man's foot would almost touch my head, I'd look up, he'd be hanging over my, and that didn't scare me. I said, "Well, they won't do me that way." I don't know why I had that i-dea, but I [believed in] thank God [,] that I did because if I didn't I'd a been scared out of my wits. So I kept myself in that position, you know, that I could always demand the respect of all, both white and colored, and everybody always spoke well of me. [I] Never bothered nobody, and because I'd fight, they just said I didn't have good sense, and they just wouldn't bother me. [*Whites accept him*] And then the white boys, you know, I'd run with them, I'd run with the white boys, we'd wrestle, we'd box together, and there wasn't ???? man, white or black, in our country round there, [but what ho could wrestle] that was my equals, [or be a boxer.] wrestling or boxing. I was just the best man, and they all just knewit, and they felt whichever side had my protection, why, they thought they had something. And some of those white bo s would take up for me just as quick as they would [for] one another. And even the white women there would speak up for me. I just lived amongst them, and I lived a gentleman; I lived Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 2 right. I never cause any suspicion in any way; I never take nothing that didn't belong to me, and I never thought of no [sex] secks relation outside of my own people. I'd never come in my mind, and I've even been in the plays with the women, you know, and I'd show em how to go through with the different plays and everything like that, and nothing like that never come in my mind, never thought of it. A: But when you were a young man coming up didn't you court a lot of girls in your neighborhood? [*Courting in the country the girls like me.*] R: Oh yes. All the girls liked me. I was (laughter), I was kinda of exception there, you know. On one occasion I wrote a girl [I knowed] a note once, and she shouted (laughter). And I went out to aparty one night, a dance, we called em parties then, you know,, and I [stayed] stood around there and talked, I didn't do much dancing, and I got ready to come home, well I sit down and talked to a girl a while and she asked me didn't I go back [there] that way, and I'd say yes. She say, "Well, you going back home with me." And I said, "Tilly, did[n't] you have company here?" And she said yes. Well, I wouldn't want to do that, and she couldn't have persuade[d] me to say I would, so when we started home, we all just started off together, and she just walked up side of me, and so this other young man walked on the other side, and I told her to go on with the company, but she just wouldn't do it, and she would[n't] let him go, [persuade] made him to go home, and I just walked on away from em and she caught up with me. So I just had to go on by home with her (laughter), talk with her. [*Girl dies of love for him*] And that same girl, when I left home, I stayed a year and when I [got] went back, she heard I was there, and she come through the [door-cheek] Do?ch??? bottom there and waded water up 6o her waist, they said and carried her clothes on her head, to come up [to tother] over on that side so she could get to see me, and she'd taken pneumonia from it and died, yessir. And you know all the girls thought lots of me, and I was very nice to em. I was negaged to marry to a girl there before I left home but I Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 3 had nothing to support her, and I just went on, and I finally forgot about her. A: Well, in those days in the country, didn't the young man and the women have their pleasure together? R: Oh yes, oh yes, we went together, you know. Of course, we were so busy until we didn't have time like the young folks do now because we worked every day. We'd only see each other Saturday evening and on Sunday. [*No promiscuity*] A: In those days it wasn't considered so wrong if you slept with a girl, was it? Out in those country districts? R: Oh, man, there was a place down in there you'd go, but, oh, out there in our settlement, if a girl was caught with a man, she never was counted no more. No, she was out of society. Why those old folks-- if you was caught with a man, and it was known, she couldn't go with none of those best girls no more. Them mothers wouldn't have that; they was strict about that, yessir. And if we was seen with one of them girls, why them best girls wouldn't go with us, why, we'd have to slip down there at night. Yeah. We had a group of em, though, was just like that, you know, you'd go down there and sleep with em and [every]anything you want to. A: They weren't professionals; they were just a different class. R: Yeah, we just had classes. Just like the white folks, you know, we has classes [. They'd] that just do most any way. [cause there's] But those best folks there [. And] don't think that you were gonna spoil a girl and getz away with it, I mean one of themgood girls; you wouldn't do that, no sir. Why, if you wasa pretty good kind of a boy and everything all right, when they found it out, you'd just go marry the girl. A: But they saw to it that you married her. R: Oh, man, yeah. You had to marry that girl or die. They'd kill you, that's all. Just had to do it. Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 4 I knew one fellow there, Billy [Books] Bullocks, his daughter was engaged to a young man there, and he wouldn't consent for her to marry, and so this young man borried another fellow's horse and stole the girl. And he got away, and when Billy found out that this fellow let him have a horse to get off, you know, with his girl, he went there and killed him for loaning him his horse. A: Was anything done to him? R: They sent him to the pen. They sent him to the pen[.], I don't remember how many years now but he got out of the pen[.], he stayed 6 or 7 years, got on out of the pen[.] and come back, and his own son killed him. A: What was that about? R: Well, he just so mad about that, you know, andthought [he] his son had something to do with it. He gonna kill his son, and the son beat himto it. This fellow Bullocks here that's pastoring here now was his nephew. Oh, they were ve y strict about those things, the best, you know, the best [calss] class of peole was [,were]. [*The old folks' brogue*] A: You imitated Old Man Nero and Old Man somebody here the other day, and you imitated the way they talked, this kind of huh way they talked. What did they talk like that for? R: Well, you know that's just the old folks's brogue, I guess (laughter). They on our people, you know. You generally, yo know, your environment, you know, have a lot to do with your life, your association, I mean, and the old folks, you know, just talk that way, and they never was educated out of it. [Anybody] I believe can tell it pretty good, pretty good (laughter). [*Old stories*] I remember at home, our father used to ell us those old stoires at night [a-] when we'd be sitting around the fire. He told us a story once about why there was a devil. He said there was an old blacksmith, and he Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 5 [*The blacksmith & the devil*] had a shop near his home, and he shoed horses, you know, and welded plows and things. And for a while he didn't have any customers; he got out of money, and he didn't have anything much for his people. So he was standing out in front of the shop one day, and say, he says, "I wish the Devil had me." And so he went back into his shop the next day, and [then] said he was a-working, and the Devil come in and told him, "I come after you." And he told the Devil, he says, "I can't go with you." "So why you said you wished I had you?" And he told him, he says, "Well I [in't] aint ready to go now." And he the Devil [still] says, "Wel, now, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll give you four wishes, and whatever you wish'll come to pass. And then after so long a time, why you to can go home with me." And he said all right, and so the Devil told him to make his first wish, and he said he wished that he had plenty of money, just all the money that he needed for everything. And the Devil [had] give him a pocketbook, and every time he'd want money, he'd wish for it and it would come in that pocketbook. And then he said to the Devil, "I wants it to be so that no one can ever take any money out of this pocketbook but me." He granted him that wish. And he went on and he had a plenty. He bought fine homes, fine horses and carriages, and they lived happy for seven years. And [then] in the seventh year, the Devil come back, and told him, he says, "You know, you told me that when you had lived happy for seven years you'd be ready to go home with me." He said, "Yes, Mr. Devil," he says, "But I've got to shoe this horse," and said, "you know, you promised me that you would come and whatever I had to do you'd help me do it." He said, "All right. What you want me to do?" He said, "I want you to blow the bellows for me." Now he just are. So the Devil went to blow in the bellows, and that was one of the wishes Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 6 [*B'smith & the devil continued*] He said that whenever anybody went to blow in his bellows, that they couldn't quit until he told them. And so he went on and left the Devil blowing the bellows, and he blowed, and he blowed, and he blowed. And after a while, he come back to see how the Devil was getting along. He asked him how was he getting along. He says, "I'm tired of blowing this bellows." And [he] says, "If you'll just let me go this time, I'll give you seven more years." He told him all right. So he gave him seven more years, and Jack, he let him go. So when the seven years was out, he came back after Jack, and Jack was working at the old blacksmith shop. And he told the Devil, says "[Fellow,] I'm ready to go with you," he says, "But wait til I get through with this." So the Devil sit down [on] in the chair, and that was another one of Jack's wishes, that nobody could get out of that chair til he told him. So he went on and left the Devil in there on the chiair, and he went on, went on for a good while. Jack went back, and the Devil -- (end of reel) Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 1 I hadn't always been as I am now. When I was a young man, I would fight anybody that bothered me, anything, man or animal! I just didn't care. And I never bothered anybody; I never give anybody any cause to bother me. I had several fights with white boys in a place where it was dangerous even to insult one. But I was always in the right, and I never was bothered about it. I'd defend myself because I believed I had a right to, but I never imposed on no one else. A: Well, weren't you afraid the whites would gang up on you? R: I didn't think much about that, I didn't think about that. I just felt whatever come, I'd take care of it as it come. It was just in my mind; I was just brave and wasn't afraid of nothing. I don't know just -- I can't understand myself as I've gotten older and looked back on the danger through which I came, the way they killed our people. I remember once in driving my wagon along at night, and the man's foot would almost touch my head, I'd look up, he'd be hanging over my, and that didn't scare me. I said, "Well, they won't do me that way." I don't know what I had that i-dea, but I believed in God, that I did because if I didn't I'd a been scared out of my wits. So I kept myself in that position, you know, that I could always demand respect of both white and colored, and everybody always spoke well of me. I never bothered nobody, and because I'd fight, they just said I didn't have good sense, and they just wouldn't bother me. And then the white boys, you know, I'd run with them, I'd run with the white boys, we'd wrestle, we'd box together, and there wasn't man, white or black, in our country round there, but what he could wrestle or be a boxer. I was just the best man, and they all just knew it, and they felt whichever side had my protection, why, they had something. And some of those white boys would take up for me just was quick as they would for one another. And even the white women there would speak up for me. I just lived amongst them, and I lived a gentleman; I lived Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 2 right. I never cause any suspicion in any way; I never take nothing that didn't belong to me, and I never thought of no sex relation outside of my own people. I'd never come in my mind, and I've even been in the plays with the women, you know, and I'd show em how to go through with the different plays and everything like that, and nothing like that never come in my mind, never thought of it. A: But when you were a young man coming up didn't you court a lot of girls in your neighborhood? R: Oh yes. All the girls liked me. I was (laughter), I was kinda of exception there, you know. On one occasion I wooed a girl I knowed once, and she shouted (laughter). And I went out to a party one night, a dance, we called em parties then, you know, and I stayed around there and talked, I didn't do much dancing, and I got ready to come home, I sit down and talked to a girl and she asked me didn't I go back there that way, and I'd say yes. She say, "Well, you going back home with me." And I said, "Tilly, didn't you have company here?" And she said yes. Well, I wouldn't want to do that, and she couldn't have persuaded me to say I would, so when we started home, we all started off together, and she just walked up side of me, and so this other young man walked on the other side, and I told her to go on with the company, but she just wouldn't do it, and she wouldn't let him go, persuade him to go home, and I just walked on away from em and she caught up with me. So I just had to go on by with her (laughter), talk with her. And that same girl, when I left home, I stayed a year and when I got back, she heard I was there, and she come through the door-creek bottom there and waded water up to her waist, they said and carried her clothes on her head, to come up to the other side so she could get to see me, and she'd taken pneumonia from it and died, yessir. And you know all the girls thought lots of me, and I was very nice to em. I was engaged to marry to a girl there before I left home but I Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 3 had nothing to support her, and I just went on, and I finally forgot about her. A: Well, in those days in the country, didn't the young man and the women have their pleasure together? R: Oh yes, oh yes, we went together, you know. Of course, we were busy until we didn't have time like the young folks do now because I worked every day. We'd only see each other Saturday evening and on Sunday. A: In those days it wasn't considered so wrong if you slept with a girl, was it? Out in those country districts? R: Oh, man, there was a place down there you'd go, but, oh, out there in our settlement, if a girl was caught with a man, she never was counted no more. No, she was out of society. Why, those old folks - if you was caught with a man, and it was known, she couldn't go with none of those best girls no more. Them mothers wouldn't have that; they was strict about that, yessir. And if we was seen with one of them girls, why ( ?), why, we'd have to slip down there at night. Yeah. We had avgrop of em, though, was just like that, you know, you'd go down there and sleep with em and everything. A: They weren't professionals; they were just a different class. R: Yeah, we just had classes. Just like the white folks, you know, classes. They'd just do most any way cause there's folks there. And dont think that you were gonna spoil a girl and getz away with it, I mean one of themgood girls; you wouldn't do that, no sir. Why, if you wass pretty good kind of a boy and everything all right, when they found it out, you'd just go marry the girl. A: But they saw to it that you married her. R: Oh, man, yeah. You had to marry that girl or die. They'd kill you, that's all. Just had to do it. Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 4 I knew one fellow there, Billy Books, his daughter was engaged to a young man there, and he wouldn't consent for her to marry, and so this young man borried another fellow's horse and stole the girl. And he got away, and when Billy found out that this fellow let him have a horse to get off, you know, with his girl, he went there and killed him for loaning him his horse. A: Was anything done to him? R: They sent him to the pen. they sent him to thepen., I don't remember how many years now but he got out of the pen., he stayed 6 or 7 years, got on out of the pen. and come back, and his own son killed him. A: What was that about? R: Well, he just so mad about that, you know, andthought he had something to do with it. He gonna kill his son, and the son beat himto it. This fellow Bullocks here that's pastoring here now was his nephew. Oh, they were very strict about those things, the best, you know, the best calss of peole, were. A: You imitated Old Man Nero and Old Man somebody here the other day, and you imitaed the way they talked, this kind of huh way they talked. What did they talk like that for? R: Wel, that's just the old foks's brogue, I guess (laughter). They on our people, you know. You generally, yo know, your environment, you know, have a lot to do with your life, your association, I mean, and the old folks, you know, just talk that way, and they never was educated out of it. Anybody can tell it pretty good, pretty good (laughter). I remember at home, our father used to ell us those old stoires at night a-sitting around the fire ; he told us a story once about why where was a devil. He said there was an old blacksmith, and he Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 5 had a shop near his home, and he shoed horses, you know, and welded plows and things. And for a while he didn't have any customers; he got out of money, and he didn't have anything much for his people. So he was standing out in front of the shop one day, and say, he say, "I wish the Devil had me." And so he went back into his shop the next day, and then he was a-working, and the Devil come in and told him, "I come after you." And he told the Devil, he says, "I can't go with you." "So why you said you wished I had you?" And he told him, he says, "Well I ain't ready to go now." And he still says, "Well, now, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll give you four wishes, and whatever you wish'll come to pass. And then after so long a time, why, you can go home with me." And he said all right, and so the Devil told him to make his first wish, and he said he wished that he had plenty of money, just all the money that he needed for everything. And the Devil had give him a pocketbook, and every time he'd want money, he'd wish for it and it would come in that pocketbook. And then he said to the Devil, "I wants it to be so that no one can ever take my money out of this pocketbook but me." He granted him that wish. And he went on and he had plenty. He bought fine homes, fine horses and carriages, and they lived happy for seven years. And then the seventh year, the Devil come back, and told him, he says, "You know, you told me that when you had lived happy for seven years you'd be ready to go home with me." He said, "Yes, Mr. Devil," he says, "But I've got to shoe this horse," and said, "you know, you promised me that you would come and whatever I had to do you'd help me do it." He said, "All right. What you want me to do?" He said, "I want you to blow the bellows for me." Now he just are. So the Devil went to blow in the bellows, and that was one of the wishes Reverend Roe. Reel 14. P. 6 He said that whenever anybody went to blow in his bellows, that they couldn't quit until he told them. And so he went on and left the Devil blowing the bellows, and he blowed, and he blowed, and he blowed. And after a while, he come back to see how the Devil was getting along. He asked him how was he getting along. He says, "I'm tired of blowing this bellows." And he says, "If you'll just let me go this time, I'll give you seven more years." He told him all right. So he gave him seven more years, and Jack, he let him go. So when the seven years was out, he came back after Jack, and Jack was working at the old blacksmith shop. And he told the Devil, "Fellow, I'm ready to go with you," he says, "But wait til I get through with this." So the Devil sit down on the chair, and that was another one of Jack's wishes, that nobody could get out of the chair til he told him. So he went on and left the Devil there on the chair, and he went on, went on for a good while. Jack went back, and the Devil -- (end of reel) Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 1 When Jack came back,he was still sitting [the] in the chair. And he said to Jack, said, "Jack, if you'll let just me go this time, I'll give yo seven more years." And Jack told him, all right, he'd let him go. [*B'smith & the devil continued*] And so he let the Devil go and Jack went on and lived happily and had everything he needed for the next seven years, built churches and give to the poor [was] and was thought countable to the greatest men in all the country. And when the seven years was up, the Devil come back and said, "Well, now, Jack, this is this time you going home with me. You been fooling me, " he said, "But you can't fool me this time." Devil let him go tell his folks good-bye. Then he got two sticks and [tied] turned em to horses, and he got on one horse and Jack got on the other, and they started. And they had to pass by a saloon, and [nd] the Devil wanted some whiskey, and the Devil said to Jack, says, "Get us [Here's some] whiskey we can caarry along with us." And Jack says, "Well, I ain't got no money. And now you turn into a dollar and I'll put you in my pocketbook and says I'll go in and get the whiskey, and then I'll come out and we'll go on." And he s y s well allright. So he turned into a dollar, and Jack put him in his pocketbook, and that was one of his wishes, whatever he put in his pocketbook (laughter) would never come out till [unless] he said so. So Jack had him in his pocketbook n ow. He kept him there and [he] kept him; the Devil pleaded but Jack wouldn't let him loose. So finally he told Jack, he says, "Now, Jack, if you'll just let me out of here, " he says, "I'll give you this contract and you can keep it. Now whatever I'm going to do with you." Jack says all right. So he let the Devil out. Jack went on, and he did so many good things until the people all thought [the world] so well of him, and they had a big funeral when Jack died, and Jack Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P.2 went up to Heaven. He got to the door, and he knocked at the door, and Peter met him and said, "Who is this." "This is Jack, the blacksmith. I know you [here] heard about me down there, how good I was to people, andhow I [give to] fed the hungry, and how I built churches, and so on." And he says, "Yeah, but Jack, yo can't get in here." He said, "You had too much dealings with the Devil. Well, Jack [came,] he went [over,] on and wandered around; he coldn't get in. So he went down to Hell. And when he got flown there, said he knocked on the door, and the Devil told him, "Who is there?" And he said, "This is Jack, the blacksmith." He said, "What you want here?" He said, "I ain't got no yome, [no place] want somewhere to stay." "Well, you can't get in here." So he crawled up on a limb, and bolted the door, and told him, said, "If Jack get in here, he'll ruin Hell." And Jack,says, "Why [Wel l,] [*End - blacksmith & the devil*] do som thing for me." And so, they say, the Devil lit a lantern, and [had] handed it over the walls to Jack, and told Jack to go and never to come back there any more. And so that's the Jack-O*Lantern, you see him [gong] going around now (laughter). A: You learned that from [the] her old folks. R: Yes, I learned that from the old folks. You want me to tell another one? [*Bluebeard*] Wel l, he said, there was an old woman one time she [who] had threedaughters, and she didn't have nothing but a bushel of meal; [she] didn't have anything to eat. And she had to [strike her] stack of hay, and so an old horse that was coming there one nght was eating her hay. And so she told her daughter to watch it. And she stood out to the haystack with a pole [until] and said the old gray horse come up, and he went to eating hay, and she hauled off and hit him with the stick, and the stick [took] stuck to the horse and the hands [took] stuck to the stick, and the old horse carried her away down some ruin, open the door [way down] & went under the ground. She got down [on] under there; he told her; he turned to a man, told her, "Now, I been Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 3 wanti ng a wife," and says, "I believ e you'll suit me fine. And I don't want you to do nothing but just stay here and milk the cow and see to my cat nd clean the house up, cook -- that's all I want you to do." And says, "Now, I got a room there. If you look in that room, you'll die." Well, the old gray horse, he went on off and left her there, and she milked the cow, and the old cat come around and begging [begged] for a [meal] wills, [but] and she kicked him and run him out. And she cleaned the house up, and then she said, "I'm gonna see what is in that house." And she went in there and she opened the door to see what was i n the house, and when she stepped in there, she fell in[to] blood up to her waist, and the blood got all on her. She cleaned off [all over], changed her clothes, but she couldn't wash the blood off. [*Bluebeard con't'd.*] And so he come back [from her] & found her and says, "Well, is everything cleaned up nice?" "Yes." "Milked the cow?" "Yes." "Tend[ed] my cat?" "Yeah." "Did you look in that room?" She said, "no." He said, "LEt me see your feet," and so he looked at her feet there's blood on her feet. So he cut her head off, and her head up in there. And then the next girl did that same way, and he cut her head off. And then the baby girl, she was guarding the haystack. Well, when the old gray horse come; she hit hi with the stick, stuck [took] to the stick, and the stick stuck [clinged] to the horse, and he carried her down. He got her down in there. He told her the same thing; tend to the cat, clean up the house, if you look in that room, say, you'll die. And so she cleaned the house up, milked the cow. The old cat came round begging her for milk; she give the old cat all the milk he wanted to drink, and the old cat, he loved her, and he was walking [around near] mewing and, follwoing her. And she wanted to see in that room, and she opened the door, stepped in and fell into blood up to her waist. She come out, she couldn't get it off, [with the] she changed clothes, [get] couldn't get the blood off. Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 4 And so the old cat walked up and went to licking it, and licked all the bloo off a her feet and her legs. And the old man come in, why, she was all right. He looked at her feet, and they's clean. He said, "Well, you the best wife I ever had," he says, "I'll always keep you for my wife; you're obedient." And so when he went off the next day, the old cat told her, "Said [Now], you go in there and look em over, until you find a switch. And if you find that switch and stir that blood, " he says, "You'll find your sisters." [*Bluebeard, continued*] So she went in; she took that switch and stir[red] in the blood, and both of her sisters come up alive. And the old cat says, "Now, you hide em," and says, "Now, you put em in this bag here," and says, "When the old gray horse come in, says, "You tell him you want to send a present to your momma," and say, "You just lay um up on the old gray horse, and you turn the heads back behind, and every time the old gray horse move to stop, going to tell them to goto talking low in the sack, and he'll tink it's [you] coming on behind him, nd he'll keep going." [*Gallymanders*] And so she did that and sent her sisters back home, and she and the old cat went back and had a time time [again] then, but they just had em enough to have a pone a piece. And she give one of the girls a pone of bread and told her to go out and try her fortune. [So] Said she went out, and she got to a creek, and it was dark nearly, and so she [at] eat the bread and drink some water. She got up and [went] looks across the field, and she seen a light. And she went running and she got to the light and she went. [And} there was an old bachelor lived there, and she rapped on his door. He told her to come in; she come in. And he told her he was glad she come in, that he needed a wife. He said, "I and you to stay here, and you don't have nothing to do here but just keep the house clean." And says, "I have to go away every month to Georgia," and says, "You just stay here until I come back." He says, Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 5 "If you look up that chimney there, you'll die." And so she told him all right, she wouldn't look up the chimney. He went on and when he come, she couldn't looked up the chimney, and she saw a big bag of gold hanigng up there. And she got the butcher knife and cut it down, and put it on her back and started off down the road with it, you know. When she's running, she passed by an old cow, and the old cow says, "Milk me." She said, "I ain't got time." She kept ojn running. She got to an old horse. The old horse says, "Curry [Curb] me." She says, "I ain't got time." She run down to the mill, and she got to the mill. The mill says, "Water me." "I ain't got time. Where can I hide?" [I'm worki ng too hard."] The mill says, "[Can I help her] Get in the mill (hopper?)." She got in the mill hopper & said [*Gallymanders*] the old bachelor come back, and he looked up the chimney to see his bag of gold was gone, and he started out to look for her. Got on the track, and [run] went on down the road. Then when he found the old cow, he says, "Cow your'n, cow mine," he says, "[Anything what borders fast] Have you seen anything of my bonny lass, ran by here with a sooty bag on her back, wallopin' & [to serve the dragon on his back. Water for him, and gallop for him, and] gallopin' with all the money I had [this side of] since I'ze in Georgia." She [He went] on ahead," and he went on down and said, "Horse of your'n, horse of mine, anything [what border last, fast what here ever to serve the dragon on his] formula [back. Water for him, and gallop for him, and all the money I had this side of Georgia."] Said, "She's on ahead." [And so he went on] She's on ahead and got to the mill. He says, ["Mill of mine, have you seen anything of my bonny lass, passing her with a set of drag on her back? Water for him, and gallop for him, and all the money I had since I've been] in Georgia." The mill says, "She's in the hopper [hoffer]." And he went down and twisted down in the hopperand [hofferand] [made] groundher and made her into grits, and got his bag of gold, and went on home. And so the next oldest girl, she went, and she done the same way, you know. He ground her up. Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 6 And then the youngest girl went out, and then when she got to the old bachelor's house, he told her to come in, and he liked her better than he did the others, and told her now to takecare of everything nice and he had to go away to Georgia. He says, "If you look up [there to] that the chimney," he say, "You'll die." And so she waited until the old man left. She cleaned up the house and everything, got everything in order [odder]. Then she went and looked up in the chimney, and you seen that bag of gold, and she cut it down and p ut it on her sh u lder and she started out. [til] She [went] gone on, she met the old cow. The old cow says, "Milk me." So she stopped and milked the old cow right quick, you know. She went on down, she got to the old horse. The old horse says, "Curry [Curb] me." So she curry [curbed] the horse, and she went on. She went on, and she got to the mill. Themill says, "Water me." And she says, "How can I water you?" Says, "Turn that crank." And she turned that crank and watered the mill and said to the mill, "Where can I hide?" He [It] said, "Get behind the door." And she got behindthe door. [*Gallymanders*] And so this old man, he come back, and he missed his bag of gold, and he started out to look for her, and he gotto the cow. S ys, "Cow o your'n, cow o mine, have y u seen anything of my bonny lass pass[ing] by here with a sooty bag on her back wallopin' and gallopin' with all the money I had since I'ze in Georgia." Cow says, "I haven't seen her." Went on down and got to the horse, says, Horse of [mine] yours, horse of [yours] mine, Have you seen anything Of my bonny lass Pass by here With a sooty bag on he rback Wallopin' and gallopin' With all the money I had since I'ze in Georgia.. Says, "I haven't seen her." Then he got to the mill, says, Mil l of mine, Have you seen anything of my bonny lass Reverend Roe. Reel. 15. P. 7 Pass by here With a sooty bag on her back Wallopin and gallopin With all themoney I had since I'ze in Georgia.. Says, "She's in the hopper." And she's behind the door, you know. So he is peeing over in the hopper looking for her, and she pushed him over in there and ground him up. And then this old cat walked up and told her to look up over that place in mill door there and you see a switch, and get your sisters." So she went on up there and found the switch, and she stirred [stirring] around in there, you know, and found her sisters, and they all come and got up. And she carried them back to the old bachelor's house and went and got her mother and brought her there. And they lived happy from that day to this (laughter). [*Gallymanders*] A: Who told you that? Who was the person who told you that? R: The old folks, my father. Where'd he come from? In Georgia. A: He was the son of a whiteman. R: Yessir, [that came man.] He taken the name of Roe, but his father was a Wiley. A: And was he about your color? R: My father was some brighter thhan I and he had straight hair. Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 1 When Jack came back,he was still stilling [the] in the chair. And he said to Jack, said, "Jack, if you'll let me go this time, I'll give yo seven more years." And Jack told him, all right, he'd let him go. And so he let the Devil go, and Jack went on and lived happily and had everything he needed for the next seven years, built churches and give to the poor ans was thought countable to the greatest men in all the country. And when the seven years was up, the Devil come back, and said, "Well, now, Jack, this is this time you going home with me. You been fooling me, " he said, "But you can't fool me this time." Jack told him all right; he said, "I'm ready to go." And then the Devil let him go tell his folks good-bye. Then he got two sticks and tied em to horses, and he got on one horse and Jack got on the other, and they started. And they had to pass by a saloon, nd the Devil wanted some whiskey, and the Devil said to Jack, says, "Here's some whiskey we can c arry along with us." And Jack says, "Well, I ain't got no money. And now you turn into a dollar and I'll pu yo in my pocketbook, and I'll go in and get the whiskey, and then I'll come out and we'll go on." And he s y s well allright. So he turned into a dollar, and Jack put him in his pocketbook, and that was one of his wishes, whatever he put in his pocketbook (laughter) would never come out unless he said so. So Jack had him in his pocketbook n ow. He kept him there; he kept him; the Devil pleaded but Jack wouldn't let him loose. So finally he told Jack, he says, "Now, Jack, if you'll just let me out of here, " he says, "I'll give you this contract. You can keep it. Now whatever I'm going to do with you." Jack says all right. So he let the Devil out. Jack went on, and he did so many good things until the people thought the world of him, and they had a big fun ral when Jack died, and Jack Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P.2 went up to Heaven. He got to the door, and he knocked at the door, and Peter met him and said, "Who is this." "This is Jack, the blacksmith. I know you here about me down there, how good I was to people, andhow I give to the hungry, and how I built churches, and so on." And he says, "Yeah, but Jack, yo can't get in here." He said, "You had too much dealings with the Devil. Well, Jack came, went over, and wandered around; he coldn't get in. So he went down to Hell. And when he got down there, he knocked on the door, and the Devil told him, "Who is there?" And he said, "This is Jack, the blacksmith." He said, "What you want here?" He said, "I ain't got no yome, no place to stay." "Well, you can't get in here." So he crawled up on a limb, and bolted the door, and told him, said, "If Jack get in here, he'll ruin Hell." And Jack,says, "Wel l, do som thing for me." And so, they say, the Devil lit a lantern, and [had] handed it over the walls to Jack, and told Jack to go and never come back there any more. And so that's the Jack-O*Lantern, you see him gong around now (laughter). A: You learned that from the old folks. R: Yes, I learned that from the old folks. You want me to tell another one? Wel l, he said, there was an old woman one time who had threedaughters, and she didn't have nothing but a bushel of meal; she didn't have anything to eat. And she had to strike her hay, and so an old horse that was coming there one nght was eating her hay. And so she told her daughter to watch it. And she stood out to the haystack with a pole until the old gray horse come up, and he went to eating hay, and she hauled off and hit him with the stick, and the stick took to the horse and the hands took to the stick, and the old horse carried her away down some ruin, open the door way down under the ground. She got on under there; he told her; he turned to a man, told her, "Now, I been Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 3 wanting a wife," and says, "I believe you'll suit me fine. And I don't want you to do nothing but just stay here and milk the cow and see to my cat and clean the house up, cook -- that's all I want you to do." And says, "Now, I got a room there. You look in that room, you'll die." Well, the old gray horse, he went on off and left her there, and she milked the cow, and the old cat come around and begged for a meal, but she kicked him and run him out. And she cleaned the house up, and then she said, "I'm gonna see what is in that house." And she went in there and she opened the door to see what was in the house, and when she stepped in there, she fell into blood up to her waist, and the blood got all on her. She cleaned all over, changed her clothes, but she couldn't wash the blood off. And so he come back from her and says, "Well, is everything cleaned up nice?" "Yes." "Milked the cow?" "Yes." "Tended my cat?" "Yeah." "Did you look in that room?" She said no. He said, "Let me see your feet," and so he looked at her feet; there's blood on her feet. So he cut her head off, and her head up in there. And then the next girl did that same way, and he cut her head off. And then the baby girl, she was guarding the haystack. Well, the old gray horse come; she hit him with the stick, took to the stick, and the stick clinged to the horse, and he carried her down. He told her the same things: tend to the cat, clean up the house, if you look in that room, you'll die. And so she cleaned the house up, milked the cow. The old cat came round begging for milk; she give the old cat all the milk he wanted to drink, and the old cat, he loved her, and he was walking around near, following her. And she wanted to see in that room, and she opened the door, stepped in and fell into blood up to her waist. She come out, she couldn't get it off, with the clothes, get the blood off. Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 4 And so the old cat walked up and went to licking it, and licked all the blood off a her feet and her legs. And the old man come in, why, she was all right. He looked at her feet, and they's clean. He said, "Well, you the best wife I ever had," he says, "I'll always keep you for my wife; you're obedient." And so when he went off the next day, the old cat told her, "Now, you go in there and look em over, until you find a switch. And if you find that switch and stir that blood," he says, "You'll find your sisters." So she went in; she took that switch and stirred in the blood, and both of her sisters come up alive. And the old cat says, "Now, you hid em," and says, "Now, you put em in this bag here," and says, "When the old gray horse come in," says, "you tell him you want to send a present to your momma," and say, "You just lay up on the old gray horse, and you turn the head back behind, and every time the old gray horse move to stop, you tell them to go to talking low in the sack, and he'll think it's you on behind him, and he'll keep going." And so she did that and sent her sisters back home, and she and the old cat went back and had a fine time again. But they still didn't have nothing to eat. All the bread was gone then, but they just had em enough to have a pone a piece. And she give one of the girls a pone of bread and told her to go out and try her fortune. So she went out, and she got to a creek, and it was dark nearly, and so she ate the bread and drink some water. She got up and went across the field, and she seen a light. And she went running and she got to the light and she went. And an old bachelor lived there, and she rapped on his door. He told her to come in; she come in. And he told her he was glad she come in, that he needed a wife. He said, "I want you to stay here, and you don't have nothing to do here but just keep the house clean." And says, "I have to go away every month to Georgia," and says, "You just stay here until I come back." He says, Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 5 "If you look up that chimney there, you'll die." And so she told him all right, she wouldn't look up the chimney. He went on and when he come, she couldn't looked up the chimney, and she saw a big bag of gold hanging up there. And she got the butcher knife and cut it down, and put it on her back and started off down the road with it, you know. When she's running, she passed by an old cow, and the old cow says, "Milk me." She said, "I ain't got time." She kept on running. She got to an old horse. The old horse says, "Curb me." She says, "I ain't got time." She run down to the mill, and she got to the mill. The mill says, "Water me." "I ain't got time. I'm working too hard." The mill says, "Get in the mill (hopper?)." She got in the mill hopper. The old bachelor come back, and he looked up the chimney to see his bag of gold was gone, and he started out to look for her. Got on the track, and run on down the road. Then when he found the old cow, he says, "Cow your'n, cow mine," he says, "Anything what borders fast to serve the dragon on his back. Water for him, and gallop for him, and all the money I had this side of Georgia." He went on ahead, and he went on down and said, "Horse of your'n, horse of mine, anything what border last, fast what here ever to serve the dragon on his back. Water for him, and gallop for him, and all the money I had this side of Georgia." Said, "She's on ahead." And so he went on and got to the mill. He says, "Mill of mine, have you seen anything of my bonny lass, passing her with a set of drag on her back? Water for him, and gallop for him, and all the money I had since I've been in Georgia." The mill says, "She's in the hoffer." And he went down and twisted down in the hoffer and ground her and made her into grits, and got his bag of gold, and went on home. And so the next oldest girl, she went, and she done the same way, you know. He ground her up. Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 6 And then the youngest girl went out, and then when she got to the old bachelor's housem he told her to come in, and he liked her better then he did the others, and told her now to takecare of everything nice and he had to go away to Georgia. He says, "If you look up there to the chimney," he say, "You'll die." And so she waited until the old man left. She cleaned up the house and everything, got everything in order. Then she went and looked up in the chimney, and you seen that bag of gold, and she cut it down and put it on her shoulder and she started out. til she went on, she met the old cow. The old cow says, "Milk me." So she stopped and milked the old cow right quick, you know. She went on down, she got to the old horse. The old horse says, "Curb me." So she curbed the horse, and she went on. She went on, and she got to the mill. Themill says, "Water me." And she seys, "How can I water you?" Says, "Turn that crank." And she turned that crank and watered the mill and said to the mill, "Where can I hide?" It said, "Get behind the door." And she got behindthe door. And so this old men, he come back, and he missed his bag of gold, and he started out to look for her, and he gotto the cow. S ys, "Cow o your'n, co o mine, ahve yu seen anythign of my bonny lass passing by here with a sooty bag on her back well hopin' and gallopin' with all the money I had since I'ze in Georgia." Co w says, "I haven't seen her." Went on down and got to the horse, says, Horse of mine, horse of yours, Have you seen anything Of my bonny lass Pass by here With a sooty back on her back Wallopin' and gallopin' With all the money I had since I'ze in Georgia Says, "I haven't seen her." Then he got to the mill, says, Mill of mine, Have you seen anything of my bonny lass Reverend Roe. Reel 15. P. 7 Pass by here With a sooty bag on her back Wallopin and gallopin With all themoney I had since I'ze in Georgia.. Says, "She's in be hopper." And she's behind the door, you know. So he is peeping over in the hopper looking for her, and she pushed him over in there and group him up. And then this old cat walked up and told her to look up over that place mill door there and you see a switch, and get your sisters. So she went on up there and found the switch, and she stirring around in there, you know, and found her sisters, and they all come and got up. And she carried them back to the old bachelor's house and went and got her mother and brought her there. And they lived happy from that day to this (laughter). A: Who told you that? Who was the person who told you that? R: The old folks, my father. In Georgia. A: He was the son of a whiteman. R: Yessir, that same man. A: And was he about your color? R: My father was some brighter thhan I and he had straight ahir Reverend Roe. Reel 16. P. 1 I said, we had a watch meeting on the last night in the year. They all on their knees praying, and when the bells ring and the gun begin to shoot, why, then they get up and go to singing a good song and shaking hands. My father, he wasn't treated so bad like Mother. But Mother, she was treated pretty bad at times. First she was whipped and then my oldest brother, too, her first child, he knew a little bit about slavery, and when they whipped Mother, she would fight. Why, they'd just have to tie her, and he saved even a lash with some of her blood on it and kept it, you know, for years after Surrender. They would drive e m, you know, from one place, you know, to another. Carry them to the auction block, you know, to sell em; have their hounds, and things. And now on one occasion there was an old man there, Old Man Singer, and he had a lot of hounds, and she said she have known him, Old Man Masinger, to make one of those women at that hound, have intercourse with her. She said she had known him to do that. They'd drive em, you know, from one place to another, and as they git up, at the auction block, you know, they'd git up, them that they want to sell, you understand, and they'd carry em from, haul em, to thr auctionnblock where they gonna auction em off, and a lot of white folks had to buy em, and they'd stand em up on the auction block. And sometime they'd take your clothes off, and look you over [up], and see how you was built up, and everything, and the officer, you know, they'd sell it to the highest bidder. That was pretty bad. A: Would your mother cry when she was telling you these stories? R: Oh yes, quites often, yessir, very often. And we'd get mad, and we'd want to kill somebody. A: What did you say? R: We'd get mad and say we'd kill em [?all likea that] but we was just kids; we couldn't do nothing Reverend Roe. Reel 16. P. 2 But she would tell us those stories, and how'd they'd run, the colored men. She'd tell us how Old Men Masinger and an Old Man Winder would just run away; they just couldn't [?eep] it. They'd get after him to whip him, he'd leave; he'd run away. And they got an old 'size (scythe) blade, she said, and he run away, and he got in on a briar picket, and he had cut him a little place way out in the middle of it, you know, where he fix him up some kind of a little thing he could get on there, you know. And Old Masinger found him, and rode his horse out in there. And when he got up to Old Man Winder's little place he'd cut him there, Old Man Winder cut his pony down with that scythe blade, killed some of his hounds, and cut his tail and his coat off, and he was running (laughter). He made him git out of ther (laughter Then he'd leave there; they never could do nothing with him. They did- n't want to kill him; he's such a good hand, but he'd work all right if they didn't try to whip him, you know. When they went to whip Old Man Winder, it was a fight, and, you know, they's just like anything else: a good hand, they just hate to kill him, you know. And he'd get off in the woods, hide, and they'd get the dogs afterhim, you kn ow. A: Did your mother tell you what it was like when freedom came? R: Oh, she said it was one of the joyfullest time. The colored folks just thought it was one of the greatest things; they was free, you know, and could go where they wanted to go. A lot of em stayed where their masters had been good and kind to em. They stayed, some of em hired, some of em worked on shares. But it was a joyful time. And all of the mean white folks, you know, that treated em so bad they'd leave them. They'd leave and go other p aces, you know. But she said there was singing and shouting and praying. Oh, they had a terrible time. Sometime they'd haul you together, you know, and set your time (in the air?). And then they got to place, they penny-rollers got Revered Roe. Reel 16. P. 3 so mad she said, that they wouldn't 'low em to pray. They'd whip em, the old penny-rollers would. And she said they used to, they used to take a pot and she saidthey'd turn it upside down or something, and they'd get under that, you know, and pray, and that would keep their voice, you know, from going out where the penny-rollers would hear. And they'd getthere and ray, you know, in the pot. And there was awna, they accused him of raping a girl, and they got after him to kill him, and he ran, and there was a big wash pot on the side of the river. And he run by and grabbed up that wash pot and went down in the river. She said they waited for him to come up and they looked around there for hours, and theynever did see him any more. And it was a long time after that, I think it was a bout two mile down the river, out in the bottom down there, why, they found the pot. And he had put that pot over his head and held it down -- it was heavy, you know-- by the ears and just went on. He went on. And we found that you could take apot and put it over your head and go down in the river and just as long as the air lasts, you know, in that pot, you could just walk on the bottom of that river and breathe just like you do up here on the street. And he went for a mile or two down the river and git on out of the way, and they never did catch him. Yessir. But I never woulda thought about a thing like, I don't know how he learned it.. (Break in record??) Fine, you know, a thing like that. Elected the officers, and all of em could vote and things. But later on, you know, when the Southern white folks got things back in their own hands, why, they put him down. And that was the time that everything was so bad -- the penny- rollers, they called em, was travelling all over the country everywhere. Reverend Roe. Reel 16. P. 4 After I got up to be a large boy, I used to see em in droves coming, and I'd get out and hide in the woods until they pass. They maybe wouldn't have hurt me but make me go along with em, you know, and do whatever they wanted me to do. Some places go and take a fellow out and whip him, and some places they'd get a fellow out, you knnow, and just go up to him and warn him about different things, turn him loose. But the thing was, they wanted to keep him afraid, you know, keep him down. A: And a lot of the peo ple they did keep afraid. R: Oh yeah, a lot of them they did, and some of em justtaken so much they just got the place, they just made em kill em. They'd kill a white man or two and just die, just stand aslong as hey could. A: Have you known preachers that would advise their congregations to do things that were against themselves, for a white man's benefit? R: Well,maybe one time, some preachers, you know. A: To help keep the people ignorant? R: Yeah, to help to keep em in ginorance and teach em, you know, to obey the white folks. Yes, I've heard preachers do that. And then I heard em just do the reverse. Like the extremes, I called it. Another would teach em to go on, 'tend ot your own business, live honest and make your living, and if a hwiteman bother you, kill him 'cause they gonna kill you anyhow, so you just better carry one with you. And I understand s whole lot of em did that. Yessir. A: Did anybody ever come down to your part of the country andtry to organize the colored folks to..? R: Oh yes, yes, but they'd git run out, they wouldn't, they couldn't do that very much. There was one person down there -- I was, oh, I was just a boy then. There were some white folks, you know; they would come and make the women folks go and wash and do for em, you know. And it was a colored fellow there, he was in pretty good shape - Reverend Roe. Reel 16. P. 5 had a nice farm, and his wife, she didn't work, and they come after her to make her go and wash for one of em white men, and she wouldn't go, and, well, they tried ot make her go, and she reared up and went to fighting. And he was way down in his field, and he was -- a wood- carrying wood between the house and down there where he was plowing. And they took his wife and mobbed her, hung her up. And then one went down there after him and told him, "come up there and help take her carcass? down." And hecwent, see who it was, and he got there, saw it was his wife. And he told them to let him go to the house to get a sheet to wrap his wife up in. And they let him go. And he went down to the house and got him a Winchester and wrapped it up in the sheet and got back close enough to em, he just fell on the ground and went to shooting. And I think he killed seven men, seven men he killed. But he didn't even get to burying hs wife. They don't know what become of him: whether they caught him and killed, or whether he just got away, or what. Because they never did know nothing, they never did told nothing. There was another whiteman down there that got a cookin woman, he got her in ( ?) - way, and his wife, she raised up about it, you know, and raised a lot of Cain, was going crazy, and he went and got one or two of his borthers, and they went down there and cut that woman and killed her. And they say he cut her open, cut that child out of her and stopped it. A: Isxthat really true, do you think? R: That's what everybody said. And he killed the woman, and they buried her. A: It's just almost impossible. R: It don't look it be possible for a man to do that. A: How do you suppose people grew up to be that way? R: They just get to the place, and they do anything to keep in good Reverend Roe. Reel 16. P. 6 grace, you know, with the race. So many things down there happened that yu wouldn't hardly think. That wasn't far from me where that fellow Prince killed that man on the farm there near Sweetport. He killed him bout his wife, and that white fellow did so bad until the white folks went to git that colored fellow out of there, and he got clean into Indian Territory, in to the mountains up there. Sometimes they just.. (end of real). Transcribed and reviewed by volunteers participating in the By The People project at crowd.loc.gov.