American Folklife Center, Library of Congress Alan Lomax Collection (AFC 2004/004) folder 23.02.02 projects, sound recordings Blues in the Mississippi Night transcripts, correspondence Columbia University in the City of New York (New York 27, N.Y) Department of Anthropology June 23,1947 Mr. Alan Lomax Decca Records 50 West 57th St. New York City Dear Alan: This is very nice material and I hope it will be published somewhere, although it is too long for an article. Possibly you might send it to either Ben Botkin, or to the Editor of the Journal of Folklore, Dr. Wayland D. Hand, University of California, Los Angeles, for their advice. Perhaps it could be cut, though not much. Some comment would be advisable describing how this session came to be. Occasionally it would seem as if the participants had learned of some notions about Negro songs, the idea of protest, etc. The commentary might give some indication as to their background; that these musicians were no more fully unsophisticated individuals. With all best wishes, Sincerely, George Herzog GH: hs BLUES - 1 (SLOW PIANO BLUES BACK THROUGH THE WHOLE RECORD) SID: Well, one of the reasons that I started playin' the blues was from-uh just feelin' bad, lack of money. . .and-uh, fact of the business, [I] couldn't find a job around at that time to make no extra money --- workin' on the farm, plantations 'n' things like that. . .'Course some people say that the blues is a-uh cow want to see her calf, but I don't say it like that. I say it's a man that's got a companion and she turn him down (things like that happens, you know), and that's wha' I gets the blues from --- when I want to see my baby, 'n' want to see her bad 'n' somepin happen [so] I can't find her --- an' that gives me the blues. So what do you think about it, Kid, you must have somethin' to say about the er-uh reason why you have the blues? KID: Well, K'll tell you, Sid, it really worries me just to think [how] I used to have a sweet little girl, you know, name' Estelle? BLUES - 2 KID: (cont) An', you know, an' we used to go to school together? SID: Yeah. KID: An' we naturally grew up together, you know. . . SID: Yeah. KID: . .we grew up together. In other words I wanted to loved her and axed her mother for her an', well, she turned me down, an' that caused me to sing the blues. You see, I-I couldn' get her, see, I thought-that's the reason I thought of the LITTLE SCHOOL GIRL*, see. 'Cause me an' this girl used to go to school together (you know), an' then er-well, her parents thought that I wasn't the right boy for her (y'un'erstan'), 'n' wouldn't make her happy 'n' ev'ything, an' so they turnt me down an' then I just got to sittin' down thinkin' (y'un'erstan'), an' then I thought of a song an' I started to drinkin' an' then I started to singing. SID: Well, what'd you drink? *See page 2A Page 2A The blues referred to begins: Good mornin', little school girl, Good mornin', little school girl, May I go home with you? May I go home with you? You can tell you mama and your papa That I'm just a little schoolboy, too. BLUES - 3 KID: Awww-well, you know-uh, dat time, out in the hills like that, you couldn't get this good whiskey. You got to drink what you could. I was drinkin' (you know), some of that white cawn whiskey, (you know) made out of that real corns, you know? SID: I know what you mean. KID: And so 'n' that give me that blues and I started. SID: OK, Kid. Well now, what you think about it, Nachez? NACHEZ: (CONTINUING AT THE PIANO) Well, Sid, I don' know 'bout the blues. . blues have hope me a lot. Sid, I mean, I still have the blues, but --- when I have trouble, the blues the onliest thing that helps me. I mean that's the onlies' way to-uh kinda ease my situation. If I have lots of trouble (for instance, the rent situation an' so forth an' so on like that), the blues the only thing that gives me consolation. SID: Well, what about-uh, what about places wha' they didn't have to pay rent, jus' go on a plan'ation? NACHEZ: Well, I still had troubles. BLUES - 4 SID: Yeah, I know that. Yeah. NACHEZ: I mean women troubles and so forth and so on like that. SID: Yeah. NACHEZ: Blues is the only thing that, you know, I could consider. . . SID: Well, the thing I think about the blues is --- it-it didn't start in the North --- in Chicago, New York, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, wha'sonever it is. It didn' start in the East, neither the North. It started in the South from what I'm thinkin'. NACHEZ: Yeah, it started from slavery. SID: Yeah. An' at's wha po' people, that uh-they got their-they got their rent, and uh-they-uh-they-uh-their grocery bill and ev'ything all combined together, the same time. That's the way they paid 'em. They didn' know nothin'-anything about rent an' those things in those days. NACHEZ: But you agree with me that blues uh-helps a man out? SID: Yeah, for the feelin'. . you feel much better. . . NACHEZ: (INTERRUPTING) Feelin' sad, you play the blues. . SID: You-yeah you mean you express your. . BLUES - 5 NACHEZ: (GOING RIGHT ON) . .if your wife lef' home 'n' left you 'n' did you wrong, somethin' like that. I mean. . . ALAN: Yeah, but why did they start in the South? SID: (WHO HASN'T HEARD ME) Yeah, I-I agree, I agree on that, Nachez, but the thing about it is this --- uh-uh-about your-your. . .It helps you, yeah, it helps anybody to explain uh-what-uh are their feelin's. NACHEZ: Expressin' your feelin's. . SID: Yeah, that's the whole thing! NACHEZ: 'Specially if you're a blues singer. SID: Yeah, uh-that's it! But the main thing is --- why the blues, why fellas that-uh gits a-holt of the blues, uh-why do he have the blues? KID: I-I think this, I think uh-after a man (Like you're down South, you know how it is?), work hard all the year (You un'erstan'?), an'-an'-an' you 'spectin' your money once a year, an' when that year winds up, then you don' get nothin'! You know? SID: That's right, that's the truth! BLUES - 6 KID: You know-y'know, you done worked hard all year an' then-then you (You know?), you get that idea that (you-you look like you-you-uh-you) "I ain't doin' no good no way and what's the use of livin' ( 'N, you understand, you'll have all them funny thoughts like that. SID: Sure! KID: An' so that's what I think. SID: Well that's-that's right too. .but the thing about it is that a-a man. . . (END OF RECORD) I was a great church man. That was when I was 'round 19 yrs. old. ('Course that's been a long time, we won't go into that.) But that 'as, that-uh I quit the church, 'cause I wasn't-uh-wasn't no way for me to collect no salary from-uh what I was doing in the church, to make a living. So I had to go to the farm, work on the plantation, raise cotton 'n corn, potatoes an' stuff like that to make a livin'. . .So one day I was-uh called, uh-was axed, could I play a fiddle. An' I told 'im, "Yes, I could play a fiddle". So the-the guy told me he'd give me fifty dollars to play the fiddle for the dance that night. BLUES - 7 SID: (cont) So those things like that --- I wonder is-is that the cause why the blues? Uh-why a man have the blues --- is on account of he can't make the support for his family (which he do love) an'-uh-an' he's gotta go 'n' do things he don' want to do to make a livin', --- is that why the blues is? NACHEZ: Well-uh, I'll tell you, Sid. . 'r instance, like you say about church. Well-er, the blues and-er (to my idea now), the blues and-er spirituals are somewhat on the same order. I mean, if you have troubles. . SID: Yah. NACHEZ: . .if you have trouble you go to church and you sing, you feel happy. . SID: That's right. NACHEZ: . .an' I mean you gets a little consolation there. SID: That's right. NACHEZ: Well, it's the same with the blues, I mean a blues is just a something like a spiritual. BLUES - 8 SID: Uh-well, wait a minute now. As you made that point.. ALAN: What's the difference, Sid? (DISREGARDED) SID: Why is it? ---why is it?--- when a fellow.. you hear a fella going down a country road (you know what I mean?) on a plan'ation.. goin' down a road. whistlin' an' singin' the blues (you know what I mean) --- wha' did he get-wha' did he get his blues from? Where did he get the idea? He don' play no instrument or nothin'. He just hollers, you know, somepin' like-uh (SINGS) Hey-ey, I feel lak holl'in'! Lawd, an' I feel lak cryin'! KID: Well, I'll tell you Sid, here's-here's my thought on it, here's my idea 'bout it. I think that er-uh, that er-uh, we colored people have had so much trouble.. We's one nation is er-uh, we-uh-uh tried to be happy anyway! You ever notice' that? Uh-because er-uh we haven't never had so much (you un'erstan'?). An'-uh, you un'erstan', we just try to make the bes' of life; er-uh, we do the bes' we kin, you un'erstan'? SID: That's right. KID: We don't have nothin', but we try to be jolly anyway. We-we-we don' let BLUES - 9 KID: (cont) nothin' worry us too much, you un'erstan'? An' then we just, we go to them country suppers. . NACHEZ: Barrelhouses. KID: An' when I used to-uh have a dollar in my pocket, I used to have a dollar in my pocket, I thought I was a rich man, you know? An' just go there 'cause I didn' have to spend much no way, an' then if I had it, if I should've had it to spen', see, I wouldn' have spent it, you un'erstan'? SID: That's right. KID: Because (I tell you what) you know, er-uh-uh-werenever was, least I wasn't, I never was used to so much an' I al-I always had to work; you know, an' I never did have so much. I always had to work. SID: I understand that. KID: I-I 'member we cleaned up a whole bottom (you know!). . SID: Yeah. BLUES - 10 KID: . .bottom with willows, thick. SID: New ground, they call it. KID: Yeah. Un-hunh. Willows was thick. I-I've stalled four mules to a wagon, you understan'? Four mules, y'know, out in the bottom cleanin' up. .We had to clean it up in the winter, so we could work it that summer, you understan'? NACHEZ: What do you mean "stall" four mules, Kid? KID: Well, I mean you load the wagon so heavy, naturally just that mud --- the mules couldn' pull it. . .You see we cuttin' them willows, you un'erstan' it? They grows thick, you un'erstan'?. . .You see, 'fter-'fter, you see 'fter we-er cut 'em down, cut-trim the limbs off an' then we have to bu'n the bresh, an' then the part that was any good (you un'erstan'?), we'd saw it up in stove wood, you un'erstan'? Do that in the wintertime an' then we have to ditch that bottom, that (you un'erstan?) - that place wha' we'd cleaned it up, had to ditch, let that water run off an' then it'd do to work that place. SID: Well, Kid, you was talkin' about down in those swamps an' bottoms an' places BLUES - 11 SID: (cont) where you used to have to clean up to make you a-make y'a livin' on raisin'-uh cotton or corn or whatsonever you had to raise on that land you clent up --- now what kind of songs? what kind of ? did you have to blues down on places like that? or what kind of blues did you sing down there? KID: Of course I did. An' I'll-uh, it jus' come to me, an' you uh-you remind me of it. I'll sing one of the songs I made up when I was cleanin' up down there. . .(PLAYS AND SINGS) Lawd I could hear my-nngg My name a-rangin'-nnng All up an' down de line-nnng Well, Lawd I can hear my, Uh-my name a-rangin'-nnng All up an'-nng down de line, Now an' I don' believe I'm doin' nothin' But gradually throwin' away my time-nnng. Now an' I know Uh-you don' love me Oooh, don' love me no more Lord, now an' I know You don' love me Lord, don' love me no more-nnng. I believe you lyin' to me when you say you love me I b'lieve you fell in love with Mr. So-an'-So. (END OF RECORD) SID: Come to uh-a showdown, we really want to know why an' how come a man have the blues. I've worked on levee camps, extra gangs, road camps, rock BLUES - 12 SID: (cont) camps and rock quarries and every place, an' I hear guys singin' mm-mm this an' mm-mm that, an'-uh I want to know an' want to get the thing plain: that the blues is something that's from the heart. I know that. An' whensonever you hear a fella singin' the blues, uh-I always believed that it 'as really a heart thing --- from his heart (you know?), an' it expressed his feelin's about how he felt, to the people, an' that's the only way he knowed to say those things. I've known guys that wanted to cuss out the boss an' was afraid to go up to his face an' tell him what he wanted to tell him an' I've heard 'em sing those things, sing words (y'know?) back to the boss --- just be behin' the wagon or hookin' up the horses or somep'n or 'nother or the mules or somep'n an' then-uh he'd go to work an' go to singin' an' say things to the horse(y'know). . he'd make more like the mule stept on his foot, say, "Get off my foot Goddamnit!!". . or somep'n like that y'inow, an'-ah' he meant he was talkin's to the boss, --- "You Son-of-a-Bitch You," says. "You got no busi- BLUES - 13 SID: (cont) ness on my --- stay off my foot!". . an' such things as that (y'know what I mean?) NACHEZ: Well, Sid, I don' wanta cut you off, but-uh, I mean that's my idea of the blues. I think blues is mostly of a revenge, y'know. SID: Yeah, that's what I'm tryin' to get to. NACHEZ: Yeah. SID: That's the point. NACHEZ: Blues is kind of a revenge, y'know. You wanta say somep'n an' you wanna (you know?) --- signifyin'-like, that's the blues. Like-er, y'know, we-all, we fellas, we had a hard time in life an' like that an' [there was] things that we couldn' say. . SID: That's right. NACHEZ: . .or do. So we sing it! SID: That's right. NACHEZ: I mean, we sing. SID: (INTERRUPTING) Well, how do you, ha-uh-how-how do you express those things, BLUES - 14 SID: (cont) er-those words that you sing? How do you sing a thing like that? NACHEZ: Well, I-uh, like-uh a frien' of mines I know-uh were down workin' on the railroad (long years ago --- I don' 'member when it was) but he used to sing some songs for me --- a little number called: O ratty, ratty section O ratty, ratty crew Well, the captain's gettin' ratty, ratty, boys, Y'know I'm gonna rat some, too. SID: Yeah. NACHEZ: You know, Sid, a song like that. SID: Yeah. NACHEZ: Well, he couldn' speak up to the captin an' the bos:. . SID: That's right. NACHEZ: . .he [the boss] wadn' doin' anything; he was layin' up sleepin'; but they still had to work. So it give him, give him the blues, an' he couldn' speak his min', so he made a song he could sing 'em. SID: That's right. NACHEZ: Still, I say, it's signifyin'. . SID: That's right. BLUES - 15 NACHEZ: . .an' gettin' your revenge through songs. SID: We-well, well, Nachez, here's the thing I wanna get straightened out --- is this-uh about-uh. . . jes' like-uh you worked on the railroad where they tamp ties an'-uh how they-they line track, y'know, an' they put those bars down an' they go to pullin' on bars like that an' they. . . those songs like that those fellas sing --- 'id you ever hear 'em do that? (ITALICS: BILL SEEMS TO BE DOING TWO THINGS HERE - ASKING FOR ANOTHER KIND OF RAILROAD WORK SONG AND AT THE SAME TIME ASKING FOR A STANZA EXPRESSING A PROTEST. ED.) NACHEZ: Well, yes, I've heard uh-lot a those songs. I mean, --- the only one I can recall right now, Sid, is er-uh about John Henry (y'know?). . SID: Yeah. NACHEZ: . . songs like that. SID: Well, tha'-that was a good one, too; but we used to have an' old song we used to sing 'bout-uh 'bout-uh-uh, "Line 'em up, boys," --- an', y'know, we would put our bars under 'em, y'know, an' (SINGS) Let dive To the right, boys Let dive To the left, boys You 'member those songs like that? BLUES - 16 NACHEZ: Yeah, yeah. SID: We used to sing those things y'know, like that. ALAN: What else would you sing to that, Sid? (I WAS TRYING TO GET MORE OF THIS TRACKLINING SONG, BUT SID INSISTED ALL THROUGH THIS INTERVIEW HE COULDN'T SING THESE SONGS WITHOUT HAVING HIS COPIES OF WORDS TO FOLLOW. ED.) SID: Well-er, th-th-it's-uh. .jes' like-er th-the old number. . .er-that's where they got that tune from-uh, "You get the line, I'll get the pole," an' all that stuff. Y'know, all those, a-all those songs come in canhoot* there. . .Kid, (HERE BILL BEGINS TO SHOW UP KID'S IGNORANCE) I know. . I don' know whether you ever worked on any kind of a gangs or -uh worked on the farm or anywha' like that. . .uh-do you know any of those old-time tunes that you used to sing on plantations an'-an' farms an' places like that? (END OF RECORD) *cahoot, i.e. together. BLUES - 17 KID: Of course-uh, now I know-uh. . .I-uh. . .of course, that'as a little bit before my time but. . .yet-uh I's-uh (y'know) I worked on a farm an' (y'know), these big cotton plan'ations. . .an'-er I had my uncle to tell me (y'know) 'bout the levee camps. (KID BEGINS TO GET CONFUSED) 'Course I have never worked on the levee camps, but I have worked (y'know) on plan'ations. . . SID: Did you ever go 'roun' a levee camp? Did you ever see any tools that the people work with on a levee camp? KID: O yes, I have. Yeah, I've saw the tools that they used, y'know, an' I've had 'em to (y'know). . SID: Wha'-what did they look like to you? Wha-what-what did they tell you they was, the tools they was workin' with? KID: O, well-er-they had-er-uh large wrench, you know, that they-uh (y'know) screwed the bolts-uh on the rail with. . .I ferget it look somethin' like a pipe. . .(NOW KID HAS FALLEN INTO THE TRAP AND SID IS OUT TO TEASE HIM) BLUES - 18 SID: Tha-that's railroad. . that's railroad. We talkin' 'bout levee camp. . levee camps, you know. Somethin', I mean, like big mules an'. . . KID: (KID IS NOW IN FAMILIAR ROLE AS BUTT FOR THE OTHERS) Aw, yeah, yeah, I've saw that. . I've say b-big mules an' them-er. . SID: Slips? KID: . .slips. Un-hunh, that's right. . SID: . .stuff like that. . ALAN: Sid, tell about how livin' on a levee camp was. (MY QUESTION IS DISREGARDED) NACHEZ: (NACHEZ WANTS TO SHOW HIS FAMILIARITY WITH THESE TECHNICAL MATTERS) Uh-Sid, do you know what a gee-whiz is? SID: (WITH GREAT INTEREST) Yeah, yeah, I know what a gee-whiz is. Gee-whiz is a thing that you cul'ivate cotton with. You-you-you. . .off. . .uh-same as an off-bar. . .what they call off-bar. . .a thing, that is, to cut the ridge down small so that people, when they chop cotton, they can chop it an' they ain' got so much grass to chop, y'know what I mean? NACHEZ: Yeah. BLUES - 19 SID: B'cause that cuts off an' it leaves a ridge about, I'd say, two or three inches. NACHEZ: (THEY ARE BOTH ABSORBED NOW IN DISCUSSING THE TOOLS THEY ONCE USED. THEY ARE WORKERS, FIRST AND FOREMOST) Well, what about the middle- buster? SID: Well, that's the thing. . after you use the gee-whiz an' throw that stuff in the middle, then the middle-buster comes down an' bustes that middle out an' throws it back up. An' then, again, they use the middle-buster for the. .for the cul'ivation-uh. .for fixin' it for cul'ivation. That's in the time when after the crop is gathered, then they break up the lan'; then they got the-thuh-the tu'nin' plow to go along. . NACHEZ: You use that before you use the middle-buster, don' you? SID: Yeah, yeah-the tu'nin' plow goes along an' cuts off half of the row on one side then comes back on the other side an' cut the other half off. Then the middle-buster goes down an' takes that middle out. NACHEZ: In other words the middle-buster lays the rows. . down . . SID: That's right. BLUES - 20 NACHEZ: Er-like-er. . makes the rows. . SID: That's right. Makes the rows. . . yeah. . . NACHEZ: An' those guys can make em jus' as straight as arrows. . . SID: Yeah, you ain' jokin'! NACHEZ: . .or with a stick or a thing. . SID: Well, sometimes they nuse those, they use those, what they call uh-uh-discs. NACHEZ: Yeah. SID: An' they disc the lan' down flat an' then they-uh, they set the stake at one. . one end of the row. . an' then the man starts here an' he keeps those two mules between that stake. . NACHEZ: The stake between the two mules. . SID: Yeah, an' they go right straight to that stake. NACHEZ: All you need is one row an' they take the others from that first row. SID: That's right-that's. . . But Slim the thing I wanted to get to is-uh. . is 'bout the-uh the feelin' of those things 'bout the fella that's just like a man in prison, an' he's got maybe 15 or 20 years in prison. . git no pay. . BLUES - 21 SID: (cont) .an' he's gotta take whatsonever they give him to eat an'-uh whatsonever the clothes they give him he's got to wear that 'n' then when those wear out then he's gotta parch 'em up 'n' do aroun' an' things like that. NANCHEZ: Well, you now, Sid here's the thing 'bout it. Uh-you know prison down South. . .they are. . .I mean the colored people, they mostly un'erstan' the prisons. . . it's much better. . .uh-I mean down there because in most of the prisons down South they have certain days that you can see your wife or a girl frien'. . .they have girls on those prisons farms. . . SID: Yeah, but just a minute. Here, here, you're talkin' 'bout here --- they can't see they girl-friends. . . NACHEZ: They can see 'em, but there'll be a screen between 'em or somethin' like that. SID: (EXCITED) Well, all right, all right. . .here. . .uh-down there, uh-they whup 'em down there, they whup the prisoners down there, but here they don'! NACHEZ: Well that. . .yeah they. . BLUES - 22 SID: If they punish 'em. . .they gotta punish here. NACHEZ: That's true. SID: But down there, they-they-they really lash 'em down there. NACHEZ: Yeah, well, we still referrin' to. . . SID: Cat o' ninetails, you know, an'. . . NACHEZ: We're still referrin' to the blues. . . SID: WELL, that's-that's blues!! NACHEZ: So that gives you the blues. SID: That is the blues. NACHEZ: Yeah, that's the blues. SID: Yeah, that's the blues right on. NACHEZ: Down South is where the blues came from. . SID: But where, the poi-point I'm tryin' to talk about is-uh those fellas that-uh-that they got down there on the on them chain gangs with big balls hanging on they legs. . BLUES - 23 NACHEZ: Yeah. SID: . .An' those things they-they got, uh-what you call those shackles an' things on they legs. . NACHEZ: Yeah. Shackles. Yeah. SID: Y'know what I mean? Well, those-those fellas that's walkin' aroun' now. . . that (y'know what I mean?), can't go any place unless uh-a guard right over 'em an all that kind of stuff --- those fellas have the blues, too. NACHEZ: Yeah. SID: Sometimes, y'know. NACHEZ: Yeah, well, I remember a frien' of mine was down there. Of co'se he was in a much badder place than what you're talkin' about. He was, uh-they was so tough down there that they didn' put these things on 'em. They let 'em go. They tell 'em to run. You know? BLUES - 24 SID: Un-hunh. NACHEZ: (LOUD) "Run!" SID: An' if he can get out the way that-uh. . .of those dogs and houn's, an' whatsonever. . NACHEZ: . .dogs. .an' guns an' things like that. . . Otherwise-uh the prisoners was guardin' each other. SID: What the. .what the. .Here the point I-I'm tryin' to get to --- what you mean is 'bout uh-the dogs. . is uh-there to ketch you or track you to wha'sonever you run to, you see. NACHEZ: That's right, the dogs track you; the dogs track you down. SID: If you, if you try to get away. . .(END OF RECORD) Well, the only thing [that] is the difference between uh-a levee camp (to my idea, Nachez) --- that is-is-uh-a levee camp an' a prison farm, is that a levee camp. . .you can go from one levee camp to another one when you get ready; but a prison farm --- you's in there until you. . . BLUES - 25 SID: (cont) . . .maybe you can make a prison break or somethin' like that. . .run away. But on a levee camp. . .if you're on Chollie Lomax (HE BEGAN TO STUMBLE AND NACHEZ HELPS HIM OUT) or Chollie. . . NACHEZ: Lorentz. SID: . . .Lorentz or someone (whosonever it may be) levee camp, you can quit when you wanna an' go to some other place. But, but a-on a prison farm it's different! NACHEZ: Well, Sid, I don' know 'bout that, now I disagree with you. . . ALAN: Sid, tell about the Lorentz brothers. SID: Hunh? NACHEZ: I disagree with you on quittin'. SID: (HALF RESPONDING TO MY REQUEST.) What about Loran? NACHEZ: Yeah, Loran brothers. . .you couldn' quit Loran brothers 'cause you's jus' BLUES - 26 NACHEZ: (cont) the same as on a prison farm. SID: (INTERRUPTING) Un'erstan' what I mean, you could run off. . .run. . .you could git away. NACHEZ: Yeah, you could run off. . .you could run off. . . ALAN: Why couldn't you quit? SID: Hunh? Well, it's because uh-when you, when you go there (y'know?). . . th-th-some of, some of the people that worked on those, on those levee camps. . .they didn' have no payday there. . . You-you g o an' draw --- what they call you draw your-your-your 'llowance. Y'know? An'-uh you get so much a week. An'-uh after that 'llowance was up, that's all you got, see? Maybe sometime you didn't get no pay at all. NACHEZ: Yeah, an' a most of us didn' know how to read an' write an' figure. SID: Tha's right, that's true. BLUES - 27 NACHEZ: So they charge us what they wanna. SID: That's right. NACHEZ: So they charge us twenty-five dollars for a side of side-meat. . . SID: That's right. NACHEZ: . .or somethin' like that, an' we have to stay there until we paid for that. . SID: That's right. NACHEZ: . .an' we didn't know how much we were gettin'. .Maybe we get twenty-five cents a day. . SID: That's right. NACHEZ: . .or somethin' like that. .so when we gettin' ready to leave say, "Well, you owe me four hundred dollars. . SID: That's true, yeah. NACHEZ: . .I mean, for eatin' an' sleepin'. SID: An' then if you. . .suppose-suppose you be workin' a team of mules an' one of 'em get his leg broken an' you have to kill 'im. That's yo' mule. BLUES - 28 NACHEZ: Then you work the rest of your life. SID: That's your mule, yeah. NACHEZ: Yeah, you bought that mule. You bought that mule, yeah. SID: Yeah. NACHEZ: You work right on 'till you can slip off. SID: Yeah. ALAN: Why don't you say something about it? SID: Well, wa-what you gonna say? If you say anything, maybe you go like the mule did. . That happens, y'know. NACHEZ: Yeah, all odds are against you, --- even your own people are-are. . . You know? SID: Yeah, 'cause uh-th-the white man all the time don' do those things. It's some of the-your own people at-at times will do those things, 'cause they're tol' to do an' they do what they're tol'! NACHEZ: Tha's right. BLUES - 29 SID: An' the main thing about it is th-about that-uh. . .about those songs an' things that we-we. . .that they sung on those-those camps an' things. I don' know whether. . .maybe Kid have heard some of those. . .You heard any those songs, Kid, that-uh they-they sing?. .Could you?. .Have you got any idea about 'em? KID: No, I-I admit I don' have so much-uh idea 'bout 'em, but I've heard er-uh (you know?) there's plen'y these boys used to tell my uncle. . .he'd tell me 'bout how they used-used to gamble, you know, an' how they. . . SID: (KID IS IN FOR MORE FRIENDLY TEASING) Well, uh-uh-have you ever. . .have you ever shot craps in your life? KID: O, I have uh-uh. . SID: 'S that what they call it down there - shootin' craps? KID: Shootin' craps. Tha's right. BLUES - 30 SID: You ever been locked up in jail for shootin' craps? KID: Of course I have. SID: Been in jail for shootin' craps. . KID: Yeas, I have. ALAN: You know any songs about gambling? KID: Whilst they. . .on the levee camps they say. . .they have a little song about-hu. . .say (SINGS) I shot eleven dollars an' call the point black nine Up comes the trey an' twelve come flyin' Say, boys, can't you line it! Now I've heard, you know. . . SID: (INTERRUPTING) But you got that wrong a little. . .You mean, you mean --- up comes the trey an' then th-the six-spot comes flyin'. KID: Comes flyin'. . Yeah, yeah I did make a little mistake, yeah. SID: Yeah, that's right. ALAN: Do you know those songs, Sid? BLUES - 31 SID: Yeah, I-I know a lots of 'em, but, the main thing about it I haven' got 'em. . ALAN: Just sing one then. SID: Well-uh, I-I'll have to get that thing out of there (HIS BOOK OF WORDS) because I go to. . . ALAN: Just sing anything you remember. SID: Well-l-l, I'm here today O-o-o-o-o Lord But tomorrow I may be gone. Yes, I'm here today-ay-ay But tomorrow gone. (TO NACHEZ) Can't you sing one of them, Nachez? You know that's the way. . . that's the way we use to holler down there. How'd you used to do that? NACHEZ: Well, well, Sid, I'll tell you, you see Memphis used to be uh-uh Mississippi, Alabama or Arkansas an'. . .(HE IS BEGINNING TO SAY MEMPHIS WAS THE HEADQUARTERS OF LEVEE CAMPS BUT SID INTERRUPTS WITH A QUESTION OUT OF CONTEXT) SID: Did you ever meet that fella "Reachin' Pete" down there, they calle' him? NACHEZ: (ANSWERS HIM, THEN GOES RIGHT ON.) (Yeah, from Helena, Arkansas.) I mean, BLUES - 32 NACHEZ: (cont) Memphis was their headquarters so they used to have a song around down there. . .levee camps an' prison farms they used to sing a song aobut (SINGS) I'm goin' to Memphis, when I make parole, Stan' on the levee an' watch the big boats blow. You know what I mean? SID: Yeah, tha's good, that's good. NACHEZ: They used to sing, to sing that number, an'-an'-uh. . .used to sing Lord, I wonder What got the matter? Mattie won' ride. SID: Yeah. NACHEZ: You know, numbers like that. An'-uh in Nashville, Tennessee, used to sing. . .(END OF RECORD). . .You know I was, I was referring to-uh. . to Tennessee. . .they used to have a number. . .uh-used to have a little song they sing down there. . BLUES - 33 NATCHEZ: Well, have you ever been to Nashville? Well, have you ever been to Nashville? Well, have you ever been to Nashville? O Lawdy, the Nashville Pen. Boys, if you don' stop your stealin', Boys, if you don' stop your stealin', Boys, if you don' stop your stealin', O Sonny, you goin' back again. Yonder come Alberta, Yonder come Alberta, Yonder come Alberta, O Lawdy, how in the worl' do you know? I can tell by the apron, I can tell by the apron, I can tell by the apron, O Lawdy, the dress she wore. See, Sid, that's what I mean, that's part of the blues. SID: That's the truth, boy, that's it! NATCHEZ: That's where the blues started at. . SIB: Tho-those blues like that they has no. . they has no, no music to 'em, you know, an' it's hard for a fella to write anything. . . NATCHEZ: All blues was originated from such stuff as that. SIB: Yeah, that's what I mean about the heart part. See, you singin' from the heart an' the way you feel it. . NATCHEZ: Tha's right. BLUES - 34 SIB: . .not the way so nobody could play behin' you. . . NATCHEZ: Yeah, about-an' things that you want to do or wanna know. . SIB: Yeah, things that have really happene' to you, you know what I mean? NATCHEZ: That's right, that's the blues. SIB: An' course, uh-you take that some people haven't had no harship, an'-uh they don' un'erstan' how it is with the po' man that have had hardship. . NATCHEZ: Yeah. SIB: . .an' that still have 'em. NATCHEZ: F'r instance, classic, an'-uh stuff like that. . SIB: Yeah, that's it. NATCHEZ: . .an'-uh people liek that-uh. . .they don' know. . . SIB: Tha's right, they don' know what the blues is. NATCHEZ: They couldn' play the blues even if they wanted to. I mean it take a man who had the blues to really play the blues. BLUES - 35 SIB: Well, you got to be blue to sing the blues. NATCHEZ: That's true, that's true. SIB: An'-uh the thing about it. . .you take a fella that haven' never had nothin' in his life. . .(I HAD UNFORTUNATELY INTERRUPTED WITH A QUESTION ABOUT THE LORENTZ BROTHERS AND BILL FINALLY CHANGED TO THIS SUBJECT) Now, Natchez, the thing is I wanted to-uh get straightened out about --- do you know these-uh, the Loran brothers? How many of 'em do you know? NATCHEZ: Well I-I don't know, Sib, it was quite a few of those people an' they lived a long time. I mean, I think they was somethin' like-uh the Rockefellers or somethin' like that. You know, if one die. . .every kid born he was a Loran. . SIB: Tha's right. NATCHEZ: Jr., the third, the fourth, the fifth, they always have been an' there is now. . SIB: That's right. NATCHEZ: . .Loran brothers. . . BLUES - 36 SIB: That's right. NATCHEZ: There still is Loran brothers. SIB: Tha's right. NATCHEZ: An' they are. . .they're people that go aroun' an' buy up all the new groun' an' lan' that they can buy. SIB: Tha's right. NATCHEZ: An' they have. . .[in] fact, the Loran brothers have come a big. .uh-a long ways now; they have uh-tractors an' caterpillars name' Loran brothers. You know what I mean? SIB: Well, uh-look here; the main thing about it, uh-some of those fellas was bi-bi-big business men an'-an' in towns; some of 'em would run extry gangs an'-an' levee camps an' road camps an' things-uh. . . NATCHEZ: Sho! An' if you work for the Loran brothers, you couldn' spen' your money no place but the Loran brothers. BLUES - 37 SIB: Tha's right, too. NATCHEZ: Yeah. SIB: I know that. NATCHEZ: You come in town, you buy what you wan' at the Loran brothers. SIB: Did you. .did you ever work for Chollie? NATCHEZ: Chollie Loran? SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: Sho, man yes. SIB: I worked for him myself. NATCHEZ: 'S that right? SIB: He was a bad man to my idea. He was a fella that didn' 'low a man to quit his job unless he tol' him to or he got tired of him an'-uh drove 'im away or somepin'. Tha-tha's the way I un'erstan' it. Is that right Natchez? BLUES - 38 NATCHEZ: That's the way it was. ALAN: How did he talk? How did he look? SIB: Well, I-I couldn' describe his voice, 'cause he had-uh, you know what I mean?. . .hard for a Negro to talk like a white man anyway. You know what I mean? An', fact of the business, he was one of those real Southerners an'-uh he had a voice there, you know, that'd scare you to death whensonever he'd come out with that kind of crap, you know, an' he'd walk out there an' shirt-sleeves roll' up, didn' care how col' it was. . . NATCHEZ: 'N didn' make any difference what time it was. . SIB: That's right. NATCHEZ: . .Night or day, it didn' make any difference. SIB: Make you get up different th-part. . .different times in the night. NATCHEZ: Although Sib, they still have that 8-hr. shift down there --- eight in BLUES - 39 NATCHEZ: (cont) the mornin', eight in the afternoon. SIB: Tha's right, yes. NATCHEZ: That'as sixteen hours a day. . eight to eight. . SIB: Yeah, that's right too. Well-uh, look Kid. . . NATCHEZ: Sib I would like to mention. You know I would like to mention? SIB: Naw. NATCHEZ: We had-uh. . we did have a frien' down there in Arkansas, fella name' Charlie Hughes. . SIB: I know him. NATCHEZ: Charley Hulen, yeah. SIB: Know him well. NATCHEZ: You know he was a..a great frien' to the Negro people. . . SIB: Yeah, tha's right, too. NATCHEZ: Somethin' happen, I mean it's hard to believe. . .(END OF RECORD) BLUES - 40 NATCHEZ: Really a frien' --- I mean we thought so anyway that time --- to the Negro people. SIB: Well, tha-tha's the. .that's the man that-uh that-uh that we all run to in-in time of-uh. .jus' like-uh. . NATCHEZ: When someone mistreated us. . SIB: Loran or some of the other guys. . NATCHEZ: . .Otherwise, (FOR OTHER WORDS) otherwise he was considered the mercy man. SIB: Yeah, yeah. NATCHEZ: I remember. . I remember an incident happen in Hughes, Arkansas. They had a fella there name' Charlie Holman that were-uh runnin' er-a honky-tonk. SIB: Tha's right, barrel-house what you call it. NATCHEZ: An'-er he had a lot of property there (you know?) he had a lot of property there. . he. . even though he was a colored fella. So they BLUES - 41 NATCHEZ: (cont) hired a sheriff there, an'-uh so this sheriff were livin' in one of Charlie Holman's uh-uh-places. . houses. He wouldn' pay Charlie no rent; he was jus' stayin' there. An' so every time that Charlie would ask him for. . some rent, he'd whip 'im. SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: So he happen to be, as they say, one of Charlie Hulen's Negros. So. . so Charlie Holman finally got up enough nerve to go tell Charlie Hulen. So Charlie Hulen t-telss the police say, "Saturday evenin' at one o'clock, meet me. I'm killin' you or you kill me". An', I mean, Sib this is no joke. Tha's what happen. So he met 'im that evenin' an' he tol' him, say, "Well, I came to kill you. You been messin' with one of my Negroes". So the police went to get his pistol. An' Charlie Rulen shot him through the heart. So they pulled him over out the street an' let the honky-tonk roll on. BLUES - 42 SIB: Honky-tonk roll right on. NATCHEZ: Yeah, let the honky-tonk roll on. SIB: Well, I-I been in places Slim an'-an' in Charlie Lorentz's --- on his camps, that was on levee camps, --- I been in places where they have 'em (you know?) have they dances an' they barrel-house (what they call 'em), an'-uh Negroes all be in there gamblin' (you know?) an' they shoot a Negro down (you know what I mean?) an'-uh some of them short guys be stan'in' 'roun' the crap table and the crap tables' high --- you can' get up there --- an' I've seed 'em. . NATCHEZ: Stan' on 'im! Stan' on 'im! SIB: . .I've seed 'em pull 'im up an'. . .pull that dead man up there an' stan' on him. . NATCHEZ: That's right. SIB: . .An' still keep shootin' dice, see? NATCHEZ: Tha's right. BLUES - 43 SIB: An' I've heard Loran come aroun' an' say tha'. . "If you boys keep you'self out the grave, I'll keep you out the jail!" NATCHEZ: That's right. SIB: Say, "If you kill a nigger, I'll hire another'n; (you konw what I mean?) if you kill a mule, I'll buy another." One of those things. You ever heard of that? NATCHEZ: Yeah, uh-yeah, tha-taht occurred to me on the levee camps. They used to say. .you know, when fellas be so tired from carryin' logs or somethin' like that --- you know. SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: . .clearin' the new groun'. . .he say-uh, "Burn out; burn up. Fall out, fall dead!" SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: Yeah, I mean that 'as the best you could do --- you work yourself to BLUES - 44 NATCHEZ: (cont) death or either you're a good man. SIB: That's right. NATCHEZ: That was all. SIB: I've heard of those things too. NATCHEZ: Burn out, burn up! Fall out; fall dead! SIB: Tha's right, yeah. (AGAIN SIB TRIES TO BRING KID INTO THE DISCUSSION) Well, Kid, look. Uh-uh-have you ever. . .you know, you know those ol'-ol'-old train whoops. . .you know any of those ol' train whoops they used to blow on harps? ALAN: Let's not pay any attention to that. Tell me who Mister Charley was. SIB: Well, that's a. .that was. . NATCHEZ: That was a fella like Charlie Hulen. BLUES - 45 SIB: Charlie Hulen was his name. That's Mr. Charlie. . NATCHEZ: He would speak up far as the Negroes were concerned. ALAN: Why would he do that? SIB: Well, he-uh he-he was a fella --- that if-if-if Loran or some of those bad white guys in the South was workin' a Negro too hard an' the Negro did (you know what I mean?). .he did all he could do for the man to try to please him, he'd go to Charlie Hulen an' he would go out an' talk with this bad man (you know what I mean?) or either, if it come to a fight, he'd fight this bad man for the-for the Negro (you un'erstan'?) NATCHEZ: Otherwise-otherwise Charlie Hulen was a. . Well. . ALAN: Why was he like that? SIB: Well he jus', he jus' was a man that believe' in the right thing an' he wanted the Negro to have a chance to make a livin'. If he's a man that would work an' would try to take care of his family, he wanted to BLUES - 46 SIB:(cont) protec' him. That's the whole point. You get the poin'? NATCHEZ: Yeah, there was, there was a lot of good peoples down there an' there was. . SIB: But the main thing about it is some of these fellas down there didn' never think a Negro get tired! He'd work him, he'd work him 'til he --- 'til he couldn' work, see? But this fella, Chollie, which. . .that's why you-you hear all the Negroes sing 'bout Mr. Chollie, Mr. Chollie, Mr. Chollie (you know?). Well tha-tha-tha's the same man. Because that man would come an'-uh would help you out. Things that you couldn' tell the man. . .If you was tired, you couldn' tell him, you'd have to keep on workin'. ALAN: Well, what would he say if you tell him? SIB: Well-l-l, maybe he crack you 'cross the head with a stick or somethin'. . BLUES - 47 SIB: (cont) . .or maybe kill you --- one of those things, see? But the thing, you'd have to keep workin' whether you was tired or what had happen, see? You started to work when you, when you can't see an' you quit when you can't see (you know?) one of those things. What they call --- from kin to kain't. You know what I mean? When you kin see until you kain't see. You know, one of those things, you see? Well now, this- this man would come out an' say, "Well, those fellas is tired," say an', "Give 'em. . ." . . .uh-say uh-he, I think he's the guy, ain' he, Natchez, the guy that cut the. . .cut them sixteen hours down to eight hours a day? Men started to work at certain hours like eight o'clock in the mo'nin' or. . . NATCHEZ: Yeah, right in his section, he did. SIB: Yeah, yeah. BLUES - 48 NATCHEZ: Otherwise, uh-he was. . he was the baddes' man down through there. He was recoginse' as the baddes' man down through there. He was a sha'p shooter. He's from Texas, see? An' he could shoot like nobody's business, he an' his son, both --- Little Chollie an' Big Chollie. SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: As I was goin' on to say, see, this Charlie Hulen-wh he were from Texas, the original Charlie Hulen, the ol' fella, (see?) an' he was a sha'p-shooter from. . . SIB: You didn' know what part of Texas he's from, did you? NATCHEZ: No, I didn' know, but I know he was a ex-cowboy; he could really shoot. SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: Yeah, he could shoot. An'-er his son was a national guard down there --- Little Charlie Hulen. So, an' those people they didn' like the way BLUES - 49 NATCHEZ: (cont) things were goin' on roun' there, so they jus' came an' taken over. That, I mean, that made it better now; it's still better down there now, but. . . SIB: O yeah, I was down there in '41 an' it's a lot better. . NATCHEZ: So an' they still, they still goes on. So. . I know. . you know they put a law in Arkansas --- NO HITCH-HIKING. An'-uh, an'-an' one afternoon I were hitch-hikin', tryin' to get a ride to Little Rock, 'n' so a fella by the name of Mr. Cuff --- he was a baddest fellas down through. . SIB: Yeah, he-he. . NATCHEZ: . .in the latter part of Arkansas. So he say, "What are you doin' hitch-hikin' here, fella?" or "Boy?". I said, well, say, "I'm tryin' to get to home to work." "Where you work at? Who you work for?" I say, "I work in Hughes for Mr. Charlie Hulen". So he say, "Come on, I'll take you there". You know what I mean? BLUES - 50 SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: Any-any other time. . . SIB: Or if you worked for any other man. . . NATCHEZ: You know, or don' be workin', you'd a got a whuppin'. . . SIB: Tha's right, yeah, tha's right. NATCHEZ: . .an' went to jail or went to the levee. . .went to the far. SIB: Went out on the farm and worked for no pay. NATCHEZ: That's right. Since I work for Mr. Charlie Hulen, he taken me to Mr. Charlie. . SIB: Yeah, he's scared to even. . .he was scared to bother you, because you wah-uh one of his. . .one of his men. . NATCHEZ: Right. He taken me in his car. . .He also gave me a drink. SIB: Tha's right, they'll do that. BLUES - 51 NATCHEZ: Yeah! SIB: They'll do that, too. NATCHEZ: That's right. SIB: Now-uh, the thing about it, as we was talkin' on-uh about levee camps an' things-uh --- only thing I know, really, about a levee camp. . . 'course I've worked on levee camps. . .I've worked on-uh-uh road camps, where they was buildin' roads, you know, an' we put rocks down, uh-where we build-uh, you know, build it up. . (you know what I mean?) an' we have graders that go along an' grade it, an' we'd fill up the holes an' sinks an' things that slips an' wheelers an' stuff like that on the road. . .then the rock gang come along an' put down san' rocks (you know those. . .what I mean?). An'-uh, but the thing about it, those-ah. .those-uh. .the-those people uh-uh, you know, the way we lived in-in those tents an' things like that an' the food we had to eat was-uh. . BLUES - 52 SIB: (cont) I-I. .you know it was. .it was-uh, jus'-uh really scrap food from what other people had-uh-uh refused, that they didn' wan'. NATCHEZ: Yeah. SIB: Sich as (you now what I mean?) ol'-ol' bags. . NATCHEZ: Yeah. SIB: llof beans an' stuff that they couldn' sell. . . NATCHEZ: They take all that stuff an' put it in a pot. . . SIB: That's right! NATCHEZ: An' they had a name for it in. . SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: . .the camp I was. . SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: . .La-la-loo, if you don' like it, he do' Yeah.' BLUES - 53 SIB: Yeah, yeah! Tha's right. NATCHEZ: But you'll like it. . SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: I mean, you might not like it when you first get ther, but you'll like it. SIB: You see, they have those big truck patches, they call 'em down there, ga'dens an' things like that --- an' they jus' go out an' pull up-uh pull up greens (you know) by the sack-full, you know?. . . NATCHEZ: Tha's right. SIB: . .an' take 'em to the-uh the lake or creek or whatsonever they call it. . . NATCHEZ: Shake 'em off an put 'em in the pot. SIB: Shake it in the water an' th'ow 'em in the pot --- one of them big 52 gal. BLUES - 54 SIB: (cont) pots, you know, an' cook all of the stalk an' the-an' the-the roots. . . NATCHEZ: An' if you foun' (LOUD) worm in there say, "Captain, here's a worm in my green". [He'd say] "What the Hell you expec' for nothin'?" SIB: Yeah, yeah, I've heerd 'em say that, too. . .that's right. . . that's true, too. (LAUGHTER, ASSENT FROM EVERYBODY) An'-but you see that they pull up the stuff you know, an' they didn' cut no-nothin' off. . . NATCHEZ: Some fella over 'long the table say, "Give me that piece of meat". you know, one of those things: SIB: Yeah. You ever heard talk about. . . NATCHEZ: I mean, they seem to've got a kick out of it. . . BLUES - 55 SIB: Wall, in them times wha-what'd you know. . .you don' know any better. . . NATCHEZ: (STILL LAUGHING) Lotta fun: "give me that piece of meat! Don' throw that away!" SIB: Here's the thing about it --- you ever. . you ever. . you ever. . you ever seed those guys call table-walkers? NATCHEZ: Yeah, yeah. SIB: They get up from way down the other end of the table an' walk-walk right down through the table (you know?) an' pick up what you got. Know what I mean. NATCHEZ: Well those guys, those guys, they were what they call tough peoples. I mean, they know they gonna get a whuppin'. . . SIB: Pull that .45 out an' walk the table! BLUES - 56 NATCHEZ: Yeah, he knew he gonna get a whuppin'. I mean, he can pull that .45 on us an' when the white man come the white man. .whip 'im with his .45 on him. SIB: Yeah, yeah. NATCHEZ: He didn't. .white man wouldn' have no gun or anything. . . SIB: That's right. NATCHEZ: . .he jus' come an' say, "Lay down there, fella, I'm gonna whup you". SIB: Yeah, he lay down. NATCHEZ: An'-uh an' he'd whup him. SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: An' then he get up an' prob'ly knock his gun outta his-uh scabbid and so he pick up his scabbid an', after he get his whippin', he put his gun back on an' go on back to work. BLUES - 57 SIB: That's right. NATCHEZ: Come on out there an' kill one of us, somethin' like that. SIB: Yeah, yeah, tha's, tha-that happens, yeah. That's the point, see? ALAN: Did you see anybody actually killed? SIB: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've seen that. You have, NATCHEZ: Many times! SIB: You see, those, th-those guys they get-uh, they-uh (you see?) on a levee camp where I was workin'. . .jus' like if me an' Natchez here we git to arguin'. .well, one guy in the bunch, jus' like Kid, would go-uh an' tell the man say, "Well", says-uh, "Natchez an' Sib is out there BLUES - 58 SIB: (cont) arguin' an' they wants to fight." An' then the big boss come out an' hol' the whole gang up --- "Eve'ybody stop. We're gonna have this out right now, an' it'll be all over." (END OF RECORD) An' then he would say-uh, "Well-uh, you two guys wanna fight, is that it?" An' me an' Natchez would say, "yes, we-uh. .I got it in for him". You knowm, an' ax us what it's all about. Maybe it's about some gal or somethin' or another --- or he taken my piece of meat or my bread or somethin' or put his han' in my food or somethin' that I don' like. A n'-uh then we start fightin', out there, see? Well, Natchez whup me. They they say, "Well," says, "Now get up an' shake hans's. Bresh you clothes off, shake han's an' go back to work". Alright, BLUES - 59 SIB: (cont) ever'body go back to work then, see? An'-uh tha's the way those things happen in those. .in those days like that, you know. NATCHEZ: In the. . in the meantime 'bout it, uh-Sib, if you were. . if you were a good worker, you could kill anybody down there so long's he's colored. SIB: Yeah! You mean as long as you. . . NATCHEZ: You could kill anybody, you could go anywhere. . . SIB: You mean as long as you kill a Negro! NATCHEZ: Yeah. Long as you kill a Negro. SIB: Tha's right. NATCHEZ: You could kill any Negro, if you could work better than him. Don' kill a good worker! BLUES - 60 SIB: Naw! NATCHEZ: An' you were sorry. SIB: Yeah, that's right! Well, what 'bout. .wha-what about. . those guys that come out on those. . on levee camps an'-uh extry gangs? NATCHEZ: Hustlin' 'roun'. SIB: Those. . yeah, those. . call 'em dudes an'-uh. .an'-uh card sharks an' things like that. NATCHEZ: Well, a lot of those fellas they made good levee camp workers out of 'em. (LAUGHTER) Y'know, dudes an' sharks ---- a lot of 'em they catch 'em an' put 'em to work an' make good levee camp [workers] out of 'em. But [if] one of those fellas he get kill. . .Course a lot of those dudes in the South was bad, you know. SIB: Yeah. BLUES - 61 NATCHEZ: There were bad like the rest of the bunch. SIB: Yeah, yeah, they in gen'lly kill folks. . . NATCHEZ: Yeah, they come aroun' an' they win you money. . SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: . .an' they kill ya. . SIB: That's right. NATCHEZ: . .an' they get away with it; they get away! SIB: That's right. That's right. ALAN: You remember any particular one of those dudes? SIB: Well, I know. . I know one they call him Mississippi. He was a dude 'n'-a-an'-a-an'-a-an'-a worker kille' him --- a boy name Albert. Aa-well, the story is that-uh this guy, Mississippi, he-uh. .he. .his home was in-uh-uh Mount Bayou, Mississippi, see. An' he came-uh. .he come BLUES - 62 SIB: (cont) to Little. .to Alltime, Arkansas --- th-the name of the town. An' he was goin' with-uh this boy's wife. . NATCHEZ: Un-hunh. SIB: . .Albert's wife, her name was. .name was Pinky. NATCHEZ: Un-hunh. SIB: An' so he went to the ba'el-house dat night, come in there that night about twelve o'clock. Here he came in the ba'el-house an' a gang of us was in there drinkin' an' playin' an' goin' on an' somebody hollered, say, "Look out, here's Mississippi!" So we all ran. Some of us run in the back an' run outside an' in the woods an' diffent places. So I heard him say that "I ain' comin' in here to raise no san' with nobody but. . .but Albert". Says, "I come BLUES - 63 SIB: (cont) here to get Pinky out. I'm goin' home an' sleep with her tonight." An' she kep' holl'in', said she didn' wan' to go with him. She wanted to go home with her husban'. NATCHEZ: (ALMOST WHISPERED) Yeah. SIB: So. .but anyhow. .anyway he made her git out of there an' go home an' go to Albert's house --- wha' Albert had for Pinky to stay. You know how those quarter houses?. . NATCHEZ: Yeah. SIB: You know all them houses, right close together an' all. . NATCHEZ: . .section. . SIB: Look jus' alike, y'know. NATCHEZ: Yeah, section-like. SIB: Well-uh, they call 'em quarters. NATCHEZ: Yeah, quarters. Yeah, that was a levee camp around there. BLUES - 64 SIB: That's right. Yeah. So he went on to his. .to his house an' carried Pinky on there an' him an' Pinky went to bed. An'-uh maybe. .well, he'd been drinkin' (you know what I mean?) an' he went off to sleep. An' Albert slipped aroun' an' went in an' broke in a boy's house an' stole a pistol out of a guy's house an' went up there an' shot him, see, whilst he was layin' there asleep, see. He was lookin' through the win'ow an' see 'im still layin' there asleep. You know people down there didn' have blin's to they win'ows like they have in cities, you know? NATCHEZ: Un-hunh. SIB: An' he monkey aroun' there an' see those. .see this window open, see. . .Mississippi layin' there asleep, you know. BLUES - 65 SIB: (cont) An' he jus' crawled in the window an' went in right there an' shot him right through the head. Killed him dead there, see. NACHEZ: Un-hunh. SIB: With. .in the bed with his wife! ALAN: What happened to him, did he get any time or anything? SIB: Well, no, he didn' get any time. Uh-uh th-th-the man he was workin' for was name'. .they-they call him. .they call him H.A. but his name was Mac McKenzie. So Mac taken him to town an'-uh-an'-uh they had the trial an' he brought him back that same day. Far as tha's concere', he didn' get any time for it, because uh-uh-uh-this boy Albert was BLUES - 66 SIB: (cont) a really good farmer an'-uh good worker on the railroad an' things like that an' they didn' do anything to him 'bout it. NATCHEZ: Well, Sib, we had a-uh uh. .we had a lotta. .we had a lot of Negroes. .we had a few Negroes down there that wasn't afraid of white peoples an' talked back to them. SIB: That's right. NATCHEZ: You know, I remeber we had a fella, call Allen Miles. . . SIB: (INTERRUPTING) Well, look. . .look. . .look, now, those peoples. .those peoples. . .This is the thing I wan'. .I wanta-to explain it. NATCHEZ: They call those people crazy. . SIB: Crazy peoples! I wonder. . NATCHEZ: Yeah, they. . SIB: I wonder why do they call 'em crazy --- because he speak BLUES - 67 SIB: (cont) up for his rights? NATCHEZ: Yeah, they call 'em crazy. SIB: Well, they do that, you know. NATCHEZ: Yeah. SIB: I had a uncle like that an' they. .they. .they hung him. . they hung him down there because they say he was crazy an' he might-uh ruin th-the other Negroes. See? NATCHEZ: Tha's right. SIB: An' that's why they hung him (see?) because he was a man that he. .if he. .if he worked, see, he wanted pay an' the- an' he could figure as good as a white man, an' he had as good eductation as some of the white. .better than some of the white people down there, because a lot of 'em down there BLUES - 68 SIB: (cont) would come to him for advice! NATCHEZ: Well, thing about it, the white people down there were jus' 'bout as. .almost as dumb as we were. . ALAN: Get closer to the mike, Sib. (END OF RECORD) SIB: Well, I-a I remember. .remember on time, he was-uh. .ha-uh. . my auntie. . .you see, he married uh-he married-uh a girl. . Well, well he married this woman before I was born, but I remember her well. An'-uh, well, I was a kid an' I was over to his house one day an' she-she had a baby. .had a boy; uh-he was about-uh two or three, 'bout two or three years old, yeah. An'-uh the white man come up there one day an' he tol' him say, "Say, Jerry," say, "I want you to git that woman out there an' put her to work." Says, "It's no woman here sets up an' don' work. .set up in the BLUES - 69 SIB: (cont) shade but Mrs. Anne." An' my uncle said, "Well, who is Mrs. Anne?" He says-uh, "Mrs. Anne is my wife." He say, "Well, I'm sorry, Mr.-Mr. Bennett," say, "my wife is name' Anne, too, an' she sets up in the shade." Say, "She don' come out in the fiel' an' work!" He says, "She got to come out there!" Says, "No nigger sets up here 'thout workin'!" He says, "Well, that's one Mrs. Anne that's a Negro an' she ain' gonna work in the fiel'." An' he [the white man] jumps off his horse. Well, he whupt him --- my uncle whupt him an'-an' run his horse on away an' then beat him up an' run him away from there. So then they. . he went to town an' he got a gang an' come out there after him that night an' he [the Negro] shot. .aw. .four or five of them an' they got away an' so then they fin'lly caught BLUES - 70 SIB: (cont) him an' they hung 'im. So tha - that's the story of him. yeah! ALAN: Lynched him. SIB: Yeh, 'bout fifty or sixty or 'em come out there an' got him. .killed him. That was on account-a he was protectin' for his own wife 'cause. .because he (HE GULPS AND STUMBLES) didn't wan' his wife to work out on the plan'ation. .on the farm. An' his wife had-had a new-uh a baby there at the house she had to take care of an' she wsa 'spectin'. another'un pretty soon an' he said that she wasn' no. . she wadn' too good to work because she was a Negro --- she could work as good as any other Negroes on the place. That was the whole story 'bout that. BLUES - 71 ALAN: What did folks around there say after that happened? What was the opinion of the people, of the Negroes? SIB: Wall, you-you know they didn' like it, but it's a lot a things you don' like in those places that you don'. .uh-that you dasn't say anything about. You know I've seen it. I've. . ALAN: Did they say he shouldn't have talked like that or anything like that? NATCHEZ: Some of 'em'd say that. SIB: Wall, some of 'em would say that he shouldn' say it an' then some would say --- well, he was just doin' the right thing, see? But the main thing about it --- I've seen. . I've seed this happen, too, in-in the South-uh that-uh one boy down there he was. .it was a white guy was likin' the BLUES - 72 SIB: (cont) same girl that this colored boy was likin'. An'-uh he tol' this colored boy not to marry this-this-uh colored girl, 'cause he wanted her for hisself. An'-uh the boy tol' him that-uh he loved her an' he was goin' to marry her. He say, "Well, you can't get no license here." So the boy run off, him an' the girl, an' went off to another town an' they got married. An' they come back there an'-uh the man asked him-uh was he, was he really married to her an' he said, "yea". So the girl figure' that if she show him the license, he would leave her go. So-uh she showed him the license an' then they went up there an' got him an' killed him. An'-uh then come back an' got her an' she was in family way --- was expectin' a baby --- an' they killed her. An'-uh then they went an' killed his Daddy an' they killed his mother BLUES - 73 SIB: (cont) an' then one of his brothers, he went out to fight to try an' protect 'em an' they killed him so they killed twelve in that one family. ALAN: Where was this? SIB: That was in Arkansas. ALAN: What year? SIB: That was in nineteen. .nineteen. .thirteen. ALAN: What were their names? SIB: Well-uh, they, well, they. . ALAN: The boy's name? SIB: The boy was name' Andrew. .Andrew Belcher. That's the one they kilt, an' whole-whole, the whole family was Belcher. I don' know the girl because-uh. .I don' know BLUES - 74 SIB: (cont) her parents. ALAN: What town was it? SIB: That was at a place they called Londale. .Londale, Arkansas. (LONGDALE) That's out from Goulds. .from Goulds, Arkansas, out in the. .way out there in the woods. Killed the whole family out there. Ol' man Crockett. .Crockett. .you ever hear talk of Crockett? NATCHEZ: (VERY SOFT) Yeah, I've heard. Tom Crockett. SIB: Well, it was out there, out there. . aroun' his place out there from-from Arkansas. That's the guy that did the killing. The bunch. .the bunch from his, from his surroundings did the killin'. But-uh it was no. .no protection at all that the. .that the po' people got in those places like that because, you see, whensonever they get. . get the. . BLUES - 75 SIB: (cont) you see, now, the main thing they'll do down there --- just like if-uh. .if I got three brothers. I'll go to work an' do somethin' to the white man. .they can't catch me. .they'll catch the other brothers. NATCHEZ: Anybody in the family. SIB: Yeah. You see an'. .an' the meantime, all the time you could do these things an' get away an' run off, but why do somethin' or another an' get your whole family kilt? You know what I mean? So that's what they know they got on you, see? An' if they. .if you got a family they got a girl in the family that they like, you jus' as well let him have her; 'cause if you don', he liable to do somehin' (you know?) tha's outrageous. 'Cause when they see a Negro woman they BLUES - 76 SIB: (cont) like, they gonna have her, if they. .if they want her, 'specially down there: (END OF RECORD) 'S this. Er-uh I been aroun' wha' they have prisoners, an' they have 'em chained together an'-an'-uh some of 'em- uh. .some chain gangs that jus' have chains with a big ball, hung to they legs, an' they make 'em work. An' I've heard of chain gangs (that they call-uh chain gangs) was-uh wha' they put a chain or rope or somethin' on a guy an'-uh. . an'-uh stake him --- put a stake down an' tie him to a stake --- an'-uh they let him work 'til he gets out to the length of that rope or that chain or whatsonever they have to him, then they'd pull that stake up an' put him to another stake, then they let him work on 'roun' like that, see? But now-uh th-th-the chain gangs that they BLUES - 77 SIB: (cont) have aroun' there like at-uh-uh parchment, Mississippi, an'-uh, an'-uh, an'-uh. . NATCHEZ: Georgia. SIB: Uh-no. Parchment's in Mississippi. NATCHEZ: I say in Georgia? SIB: Well, Georgia --- I don' know about that gang down that place cut. . . NATCHEZ: Didn't have any chain gangs in Arkansas. SIB: Well, they had-uh they had at Cummins. NATCHEZ: But they didn't have no chains. .no chains. . SIB: Cummins wasn', naw, it wasn't. .it wasn' chain gang, but- uh. . NATCHEZ: A fella-uh, if a fella. .if a fella go to Cummins, an' they give 'em some of the longes' time there --- they give 'em BLUES - 78 NATCHEZ: (cont) 100 years or 50 years or 75 years or somethin' like that --- well, after he was there a certain length of time an' became used to it they would make a guard outa him. . Give him. . . SIB: Yeah, what-what they call a trustee or somethin'. NATCHEZ: Yeah, they make a trustee outta him. .an' give him a gun an' he'd be a guard, he'd guard the sho't-timers that had --- they called 'em sho't-timers they'd have three to ten years like that, see. SIB: Un-hunh. NATCHEZ: Uh-they didn't have. .'course they had to work, they cou-uh-uh. . fast as they had to work there, they couldn' work with no chains on. SIB: Well, the main thing. .main thing I'm tryin' to get to is BLUES - 79 SIB: (cont) this. How did-uh-uh, about-uh the feedin' an' clothin' of those men. Now, those fellas that-uh. .that they. . that had the long sentence an' they make guards out of 'em, they-they didn' eat the same food that-uh. .that the fellas ate that was the sort-termers, hunh? NATCHEZ: Uh-well, in some places guards really didn'. .they didn' eat the same food that the other fellas eat, because they had a chance to get out an' hustle an' kill 'em a rabbit or a 'possum or a coon or anything, y'know, they-uh. . like that, so, but-uh peoples in prison, I mean, that were working. . . SIB: Well-uh, did you, did you ever go to Tucker's? Tucker's farm up there from Little Rock? NATHCEZ: Well, I mean, that was. . . BLUES - 80 SIB: I mean did you ever. .was up aroun' there? NATCHEZ: That was practically the same thing. . SIB: Well, they had white an' colored there. They had. . uh-colored prisoners an' white prisoners there. Th-th-they made difference in between them. . NATCHEZ: You know, when I used to go aroun' down there, Tucker was exclusive white --- all white, see, an' they had a-uh Cummins, that was a Negro camp. SIB: Yes. ALAN: Question is this. Who is a bad Negro? SIB: Well, the-th-what. .what they call a bad Negro in the South, a Negro-uh, what they call him is no-good, no-good, bad Negro. You know what I mean? Course now, th-there's one. . that's one grade of Negro they call bad --- is a Negro BLUES - 81 SIB: (cont) that-uh-that-that-that will really fight. . . NATCHEZ: Anybody, anywhere! SIB: . . .his own people. See? Then the Negro that will fight the white man, they call him crazy. They don' call him bad, see, because-uh, fact of the business, they-they say he's gone nuts! An' his own, his own people say he's crazy because he fight the white man. NATCHEZ: There wasn't a bad Negro as far as the white man concerned, because they don' call anybody bad, they call 'em crazy. . . SIB: Well, that's it. Yeah, that's true! NATCHEZ: . . .or lazy or somethin'. But we had, I mean, among us, we had bad Negroes. SIB: Yeah, but what I mean is this, uh-uh-th-th-the white man BLUES - 82 SIB: (cont) will call a Negro a-a bad seed among. .just like you-you'd planted a seed you know what I mean?. . . NATCHEZ: O yeah, he'd ruin the rest of the Negroes. . . SIB: . . .ruin the rest of the Negroes. NATCHEZ: Yeah, that's true. SIB: You un'erstan' the point that I mean now? An'-uh the thing about it is-uh. . ALAN: What was the matter with him? SIB: He would, he would open the eyes of a lot of Negroes. Tell 'em things that-uh, that they, you know, that they didn' know. NATCHEZ: Otherwise, he was a smart Negro. SIB: An' he'd go aroun' an' git the Chicago Defender and bring it down there, you know what I mean? Get it down through there an' read it to the Negroes. BLUES - 83 NATCHEZ: yeah, speakin' of Chicago Defender, I were. .I were in a place called-uh Marigold, Mississippi, an', you know, t-they had a restaurant in there an' in the back they had a-a peephole an' I thought they were gam'lin'. Fact I was kinda stranded. I wanted to go back there an' shoot a little craps an' make me a little stake. An' you can imagine what they were doin' back there! They were readin' the Chicago Defender an' had a man on the do'! SIB: Look-out man. NATCHEZ: Yeah, look-out man on the door with a peephole, so-an' if a-if a white man or something come in the restaurant. . . SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: . . .they'd stick the Defender in the stove. . . SIB: Yeah! NATHCEZ: . . .burn it up. . . BLUES - 84 SIB: Yeah. NATCHEZ: . . .start playin' checkers. . . SIB: yeah. NATCHEZ: That's the way they had to smuggle the Defender down there. (CHUCKLES) SIB: Well, th-that's a facts. I-I-I agree with you there, because I know that er-uh. . . NATCHEZ: If they'd a caught this fella that brings the Defender down there, he was a bad Negro. . SIB: Yeah, that's right they'd a killed him. NATCHEZ: yeah. That's what they really uh-call a bad Negro --- a Negro that had nerve enough to smuggle the Chicago Defender down in the state of Mississippi, where they didn' 'low 'em-uh to put 'em off there. BLUES - 85 SIB: Un-hunh. ALAN: Wouldn't a guy like that also say to Hell with everything? Say I don't give a god-damn what happens? NATCHEZ: That's right. That's right. SIB: Well, that's true, but the, but the main thing about it is-uh those-uh. .the Negro, you see-uh, that's what makes him so tetchious 'til today. Because-uh he have been denied in so many places, until if a, if a gang is in a place an' they say, "you fellas get back or git over there", or, "Don' stan' there", or somethin' like that, they figure that's straight, that you-you pointin' it out to the Negro. See? An' a lot of times they don' mean that. They don', they-they really mean they don' want nobody stan'in' in that place. But the Negro thinks BLUES - 86 SIB: (cont) right straight that they-they preferrin' to him, because he's black. KID: Well, Sib, I'll tell you what happen to me. Uh-my mother she bought a mule from-uh-uh they call him Captain Mac. You know he's-uh the boss of the county road in Jackson, Tennessee. SIB: Jackson, Tennessee. KID: He's the boss, he-uh-uh, we got down there county roads. You know, they take you out on trucks, you know, an' you build bridges an' you dig ditches an' things like that. (NATCHEZ AND SIB TEASE KID RIGHT THROUGH THIS STORY. MUCH LAUGHTER, REPEATING HIS WORDS, ETC.) You know, 'course they didn' use no chains. But er-uh, he sol' my mother a mule. Course by me bein' young, an' naturally young boys, you know how. .run the mule. Nice BLUES - 87 KID: (cont) mule. An' I'd run the mule an'. . NATCHEZ: Ride 'im. KID: Ride him, you understan'. You know, after all, he didn' have nothin' to say with it, 'cause he sol'-he sol' my mother the mule. (NATCHEZ AND SIB ARE LAUGHING, SLAPPING THEIR LEGS, ETC.) SIB: You didn' make love to the mule, did you? KID: Wall, I'm gonna tell you what happen now, really. This is a fact. A n' er-uh, well, finally the mule he got mired up in the bottom (you un'erstan') an' the mule he died. NATCHEZ: Well, wait a minute, that the mule you married? SIB: What do you mean mired up? KID: The mule, the mule, the mule got. . .Let me, let me say this. Well, wait now. In mud, in mud, yeah, in quicksan'. BLUES - 88 NATCHEZ: I un'erstan'. I un'erstan'. SIB: In the quicksan'. KID: In Tennessee. Out there in the country, where my mother. . . NATCHEZ: Is that the mule you bought the hat for? KID: . . .the mule mired up an' he died. NATCHEZ: Stuck in the mud. KID: No, it's quicksand. He walk in the quicksan'. NATCHEZ: Yeah, got stuck an' couldn' get out. . . KID: He couldn't get out. Yeah, he died, well, he died there. Yeah, you see, he couldn't get out. An' so er-uh this Capt. Mac, he tol' Mother that the er-uh, "He was just crazy." Says, I'm crazy --- to get that damn Kid out there on the county road. I'm gonna do with him just like he did that mule. An' mother had to scuffle to keep BLUES - 89 KID: (cont) him offa me. Wherever --- every little move I'd make. . . see, he wanted me. . .he goes. . .after all, he done sol' the mule an' she done paid him for the mule, but he gonna do me like I did the mule. NATCHEZ: Un-hunh. KID: He say I kill the mule. you un'erstan'? See, the mule got out there. . SIB: An' the mule went out there himself. . you didn' carry the mule out there. KID: (SERIOUSLY) Naw, he was a-loose. You un'erstan'? SIB: Well, yeah, lot of that happened. Yeah, yeah. Well, how old were you then? you young man? KID: Aw, I's-I's around fourteen years old. SIB: Fourteen years old. BLUES - 90 SIB: Well-uh, you see the main thing about those thing like that, you see, uh-that-that word. . .that word. . .we'll go back to that word, uh-uh-wha' they say-uh. .Kill a nigger, we'll hire another'un, kill a mule we'll buy another 'un, see. . . Those things, all those things comes into the same word, see? Then, fact of the business, uh-back-uh-back in those days a-a Negro didn' mean no more to a white man than a mule. NATCHEZ: Didn' mean as much. Didn' mean as much as a mule. SIB: You agree to that? KID: Yeah, I agree to that. SIB: Well, well that's-that's-that's the point. .that's the point we gittin' to now. You see, now, you-you take-uh. .you take BLUES - 91 SIB: (cont) a mule. .they sell the mule. . alright, an'-an' there was times they sold the Negro, too, see? An'-uh-uh a black man an'-an'-an'-uh to what-what they, what-uh what they looked at was just a face of a black man. I know a man at-at my home, they call him Mr. White. That's out on the plan'ation. .well, he had his own place there. It was 'bout-uh fifty or sixty miles of his place was square, (you know what I mean?) from one side to another- uh (you know?). An'-uh all his fences aroun' his place was white. The trees, he painted them white up as far as he could git. An' all his cattle, the sheeps, the goats, uh-the hogs an'cows an' mules, horses an' ev'ything on his place was white. An' anytime that-uh his cow or goat or whatsonever it was have a black goat or a black sheep BLUES - 92 SIB: (cont) or a black calf or a black colt --- anything like that, he give it to the niggers. He didn' want, he didn' want nothin' on his plan'ation black, see? NATCHEZ: (LAUGHING) Sib, what about that rooster that jumped on that white rooster? SIB: I know that. . .He'd give 'em to the niggers. Even-uh chickens, the same thing. NATCHEZ: What about that rooster jump on that white rooster? SIB: Well, I've see, I've see, I've seed all that happen, too. An' I've seed a-a white man-uh-uh an' a Negro would. . standin' up on th-uh-uh, on a, on a. .on a-uh-uh place one day. . .(END OF RECORD) About this-uh white farmer. You see-uh, he didn'. .he didn' wan' no Negro to even come BLUES - 93 SIB: (cont) through his place, see? The-uh highway, the government highway, went through his plantation an' he-he-he-he-he bought lan' aroun' his plantation an' built the road out, so Negroes couldn' come through his plantation at all. Had to come all the way aroun', you know. An' the main highway. . . everybody went through there 'cause it was-uh. . . what they call er-uh-uh. .what they call them there highways? Uh-pikes? Call 'em state highways, see? Well, that state highway went right through, right through his place. But they didn' want no. .didn' no Negroes come through there. See? When you get to there. .when you get to that sign there, wha' it say "Negro Turn!", well, you turnt off there, see, went aroun' his plan'ation. BLUES - 94 SIB: (cont) Well, now any time it was a calf or anything like that born on his place 'at's black. . .he'd call up chickens. . . even down to th-the black chickens. .he had all white chickens, you know. . .an' black chickens. .chicken hatch off some black chickens, why he'd take 'em, find some Negro an' give 'em to him, you know. Get 'em off his place. See? An' I've know-uh. .I've known-uh. .it was a Negro an' a white man stan'in on. .(well, it was right at a railroad crossin' you know) just as you git in town, like wha' they cross the railroad tracks?. .an' 't was a-uh two. . Negro an' a white man stan'in' there you know. .looking. . just stan'in' there, talkin'. .an' the white man was BLUES - 95 SIB: (cont) telling the Negro what he wanted him to do. An'-uh it was a Negro was comin' drivin' a-a wagon with a-a grey mule an' a black mule to a wagon, see? So this Negro drove up to the crossin' an' the rails was kinda high there, see, an'-uh the wheel hit the rail, an'-uh the mules was trying to pull over an' he kep' sayin', "Get up. Get up." An' so I-uh. .the white man holluh up there an' asked him, says, "Hey!", says, "Do you know that's a white mule you talking to?" "Oh, yassuh", says, "Get up, Mr. Mule"! (NATCHEZ AND KID LAUGH UPROARIOUSLY, NATCHEZ CONTINUING UNTIL HE GETS TO TELL THE PRINCE ALBERT STORY) But he wouldn't hit that. .wouldn' hit that grey mule, you know. He wouldn' hit that grey mule. "Get up, Mr. Mule!", says to the grey mule, you know? But the BLUES - 96 SIB: (cont) black mule, he'd hit the black mule, you know. NATCHEZ: Sib, what about that. . .what about that-er, that-er Prince Albert tobacco, you know? SIB: Well, that's-uh. . I've heard of that. .yeah. NATCHEZ: You couldn'. .you know, it you go in a store, there, you didn' say, "Give me a can of Prince Albert. . SIB: Naw. NATCHEZ: Not with that white man on that can. SIB: What would you say then? NATCHEZ: Give me a can of Mr. Prince Albert. SIB: Mr. Prince Albert. (MUCH LAUGHTER FROM BOTH) NATCHEZ: Tobacco. Mr. . .Mr. Prince Albert tobacco. That's what you say, I mean. . SIB: Wha' was that at? BLUES - 97 NATCHEZ: That were all down through Arkansas, down in Goulds, Dumas, yonkeepin. . (MORE LAUGHTER) SIB: Yeah. . .yonkeepin! (LAUGHTER) NATCHEZ: yonkeepin! (MORE LAUGHTER) ALAN: What's that? KID: (LAUGHING) Git away! NATCHEZ: Yonkespin! SIB: (LAUGHING) Did you ever hear talk of Goatshed? NATCHEZ: Naw-uh, Goat Neck, you mean. .yeah, Goat Neck. SIB: Goat Neck an'-an'-uh win-Winchester. NATCHEZ: Yeah. An' yonkeepin. (MORE LAUGHTER) ALAN: What was that about the, about a white rooster jumpin' on a black rooster? Transcribed and reviewed by volunteers participating in the By The People project at crowd.loc.gov.