Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The entire interview with Robert C. Jones was digitized.
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For The Record
In an effort to preserve stories of their service by veterans of the United States military, on this seventeenth day of January, in the year 2003, for the Veterans History Project the information documented on this tape and enclosed transcript have been graciously offered by
I,
Upon completion of the interview and documentation, this interview will be sent and preserved at the Library of Congress in the Folklife Center.
I enlisted.
And where were you living at that time?
Ah...Vermont; Fair Haven, Vermont, at that time.
Ah, what were your feelings about, ah, enlisting?
Ah..it was...let's see. I just graduated from high school in June. Urn...and ah, I had family, previous family...my two namesakes both served in the military. I knew I wasn't ready for college at that time. I had some living to do and ah, in 1964, to put those years in perspective there were about thirty seven from my high school class that joined the Air Force, Navy, what not.
Um, so I went along with the crew, sort of. Living in Fair Haven, all your life, I felt at that time, my only way of getting out of there for a while.
What branch of service did you chose?
I joined the Navy. I joined the Navy because of the fact...my choice was the Marine Corps, but my namesake, Robert...his name was Robert Monroe was killed on Okinowa...was in the Marine Corps, Sergeant in the second World War and I knew, that, was a little upset, my mom, my joining the Marine Corps. I knew the Navy had a hospital corps, a hospital corps, ah, supported the Marine Corps. So I joined the Navy and went through the whole process and became a hospital corpsman. And served with the Fleet Marines. I ended up with the Fleet Marines in Vietnam.
And you were happy with that choice?
AH! More than happy with that, yes.
Would you please tell about your experiences in boot camp?
Boot camp. Boot camp was in Chicago. Navy boot camp. Boy...what I can remember was; my four years experience in the military, you know, we hear the term the best of times...the worst of times were really true. I used the statement that I was born and raised in Vermont; I grew up in Vietnam, and now I live in New Hampshire; you know. Ah, at boot camp...ah...all I remember was Chicago, it was from September to November. Um, it wasn't bad. It was, again different. I was looking for different. Boot camp was different. I enjoyed it. I just felt...I don't know, others, I remember others were very upset, you know, being away from home. I was very lonesome like anyone else, but the fact that it was like a club. It was like a club to me, you know, and getting involved, doing something and I think the motivation and the discipline part...um, I think I enjoyed that. Yeah, because I was, I was somewhat different. In high school...I graduated, I don't know in my high school career I played football, basketball, baseball and graduated as class clown. So that can tell people, ya know, was I ready for college, not really even though I had, Ithica was on my mind, Ithica College at that time for ah, for ah education and an other thing I thought of becoming a coach, ah, but I knew, I knew there was something else I wanted to do. I remember boot camp as a good experience. It was so long ago, I...it was fine..I had no problem. Chicago, cold. I remember, Chicago. I remember cold towards the end of boot camp. I am not a cold weather fan, and here I am living in...living in New Hampshire, but I'm still not a cold weather fan.
Did you receive any specialized training to help you survive during your experiences in Vietnam? Specialized training?
No. That's...no, I think about that today when I talk about...I am involved in the P.O.W.M.I.A
awareness issue for twenty five, twenty eight years and I have met a number of ex-P.O.W.s of what I have a great deal of respect for the families and even more so for and what the families have gone through and continue to go through to this day. It makes me very, very angry whenever we talk about being a Vietnam veteran. I, I, tell folks I am probably the angriest man of earth, but I take that anger and I have been fortunate to understand that anger and put it into this P.O.W. issue where I work on and live with it every day. It is very, very important. Um, specialized training, no. As a corpsman, after, ya know, two years, ah, I was at Saint Albans Naval Hospital and worked in cardiology and I kept on putting chits in for a transfer because I wanted to be with the fleet Marines. So, finally, I was sent to, um, El Torro Marine Corps, Air Station in California and that was all...and that was mostly...ah...El Torro was mostly..ah...medivacing and stuff like that and this was pre-school...ah...and then the Pendleton...ah...for like six weeks...four weeks, or six weeks with the Marines, all corpsmen, though, were trained by Marines and then going with the Marine outfit.
So, when I first went to Vietnam, I left the states on July 4th, 19... 1966.1 left the states and ended in Vietnam, July...mid July...of '66. But, no, I thought I was going to be with the Medivac crew when I got to Vietnam...and there were like maybe a hundred of us on a plane and we got off and they were just separating us and ah... Jones and somebody else over here and a truck came in and picked us up and took us out to this, this river bank. There were some Amtracks there. I...I was told to go on this Amtrak. Went across this river, ended up on a island with the Lima Company, 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines and I had no idea what was going on. I had no idea about what I was doing.
Um...um..so training, no, reading the history of what corpsmen were expected to do; urn, I knew I had the ability...had the availability of people coming back from Vietnam.
I never...you know today. Kids going to Iraq and they can't find Iraq on a map. Um, I had never heard of Vietnam. I knew nothing about...so that doesn't surprise me that kids today are not...are not aware, or don't know were Iraq is, you know. In spite, you know, the news is a bit different today as well. But, I knew nothing about Vietnam or the people or...I knew it was Southeast Asia.
Did you know why you, why you were sent?
Ah, I believe I did at that time. Alright. Ah, we had heard, I had heard of Communist aggression. I never forget, I had just graduated from high school so, um, from Fair Haven, Vermont and I am with guys who are very gung-ho.
We are, you know..I, at that time, I grew up in a John Wayne era that we talk about and Audey Murphy. My Saturday afternoons in Vermont were at the local movie theater with, with Iwo Jima, war movies and every war movie we could possibly see. So even, you know, even though war was bad, it was good that we doing it because we were the United States of America and Fair Haven is a very patriotic old town. Um, so, you know I grew up with parades and Memorial Day. I grew up in a time when you saw veterans march down the street with their organization they belonged to.
At that age we looked at, and they were special and that today, I don't believe it's there with our young folks, if they saw the Legion or Color Guard, or whatnot, walking down the street...it's part of the parades...the clowns and the horses. I don't believe they understand what goes on...and I think...I think that's a veteran's responsibility and I don't think we have done our job. I think we have allowed or hoped that others would do it for us and it's not being done and it hasn't been done. And I think patriotism and pride are very, very, very important and Vietnam veterans...I think I might be getting off the subject, but Vietnam veterans were told, at that time, not to be proud, not to feel honor, and I'm afraid we followed those orders and we did it to ourselves. Um, and now that we're older, wiser and more mature, hopefully, I think more and more are standing up. Um, it takes all of them to stand up together and I, I don't like to hear, "Yes I was there, but I can't talk about it." That bothers me because if we can't talk about it then others that come after us do not learn. Um, and we talk about history repeating itself, well when I hear Second World War, Korean, Vietnam... "And I just can't talk about it". Well, maybe there's nothing there to talk about. Maybe that's what we say, ah, but there is something that may be difficult, by, you know, writing something down, putting a stamp on it, mailing it off, it gets it out of you. So by sitting down and talking to some people who understand, yes it's difficult, you know we all had different times and we all looked at it differently, like by viewing a car accident. You know we have five people and you know I can walk away from the car accident, saying, "Isn't that too bad?" And somebody can walk away and have nightmares for the next six weeks. So, we're all different. We're all did different things. We all suffered to a certain degree. We all had fears. We all have angers. We all have...it's a matter of talking about it and understanding. Because if we don't talk about it...World War II wouldn't talk about it. Korea wouldn't talk about it, ya know and we suffered because of that. And I don't think those serving in Afghanistan and Haiti and um..um..Iraq...or wherever we're serving today,
we're not going to have any ten year Vietnam's. We're going to have three, four, five, six month, skirmishes that they'll be called. Terminology will be changed. Individuals will suffer just as much, but they'll suffer alone, because we don't want to talk about it. Because we didn't. It's supposed to be...we're very strong...I don't want to talk about. I think it's very weak, when we don't talk about it. And uh, if we talk about it, people will learn from that.
Do you think they have? Do you think maybe that's why these will be just skirmishes, now, instead of long, drawn out...
Well, I don't know...see I...there's something there. I think there is a military policy that has been set for years. I don't pretend to know what it is, but ah, but I doubt seriously, if we ever... because of our technology and what happened, because of Vietnam, ten years; we won't have that. But it worries me...see, I'm still worried.
We love our country and we love the flag, but I don't believe our honor should be used against us. Meaning, it doesn't mean we can't question what goes on, um, and I don't like issues of things being covered by the American flag. We hear about an American flag amendment. Every time I hear that I get very upset because of the fact, ya know, will, will an amendment disallow our representatives, standing in front of four, five, six flags and lying like hell? You know, if an amendment will stop them from doing that. If an amendment will have no flag when any representative is talking, then I would vote for it. But if an amendment means, um, it's going to be against the law to burn the flag, I'm against it entirely because when was the last time anyone saw the flag being burned in the United States? Um, and if you did, I think you would handle it yourself. As soon as you have an amendment saying, don't do it, it's going to be done more often - for sure. So I think it's a lot of cover. I know an organization that has put a lot of time and effort... and it sounds very, very nice. Who would be against the flag amendment? Well, maybe I don't understand the whole thing, but I look at it as cover. And I have always said, my flag is folded and tucked away in my heart and no one can ever touch that, anyway. So, if somebody wants to take a flag and destroy it, um, I feel sorry for them because they don't understand and I would rather go up and explain to them what it means and by destroying it, um, it isn't going...ya know...assist, assist their effort, whatever it is. So, again, I got off your.. .off your.. .line.
That's quite alright. That's quite alright. Ah, what was your assignment or your main job?
So, ah, did I have any training? Well, what the military gave me. And I think the training for corpsmen, at that time, was the same training that they had for Korea and World War II, and what not. And it was obsolete by the time I got there. And you learned that very fast in Vietnam and that's what was good. You learned. You adapted very, very...most did, I think; very quickly. So when I first got there, I was put on an Amtrak, which was like a tank or like a water vehicle and went out to an island. And there were six or seven Marines on that and I remember hitting the island and somebody came running up, who was a corpsman, who had already been there, who was on his way home. That was '66, so that's early. And he was one happy bugger to see me and, you know, um...I'm just getting to Vietnam. I didn't realize, but then, from then, he left that day. Um, so I didn't have much breaking in. He showed me a, a bunker, where he...where he stayed and he had cleaned the bunker out. So I out some of my stuff there. The whole ground...um, they had a perimeter set up and I had no idea what Marine Corps...perimeters and I had no idea what that, that...what that stuff was. I just didn't know. But, ah, he got on the Amtrak and left. They took him out, so he said something about the CP, the Command Post was over there, um, so I just put my duffle bag in the hole and went over to the CP and introduced myself to a Lieutenant, ah, Egan. I remember him. Um, and a radioman and went back to my...and took some things out and I don't remember...I just walked around saying, hello. And that night I went out on my first night ambush. That night. I only, I had just gotten there. I knew nothing about an ambush. I went out...I ran day patrols. Next day, a patrol. Day patrol and night ambushes for about three weeks, by myself.
Do you know...where was that?
I'm sorry?
Where was that?
That was in Da Nang. Da Nang area of Vietnam. We were right behind the Da Nang airport, some place. Ah, Marble Mountain. It was in Marble Mountain area. So let's see, that was, July, August...four, five weeks in that area. Day patrols and night ambushes for all that time. And what is interesting, what other people have said, I'm sure, but, ya know, once it was different about Vietnam, I think - maybe not different, but for me, um, after a month, um, I aged twenty years in a month's time. There were those pictures at home where, you know, like this and a month later, someone took a snapshot and even, even on myself. I mean, didn't take long. I mean, how much experience is a month? Nothing. But, boy, you really changed a lot in a month's time! I first, I was first hit in September of '66, so I was there from, what, mid July to mid September, so I was...three months and I was, I was a hardened combat corpsman in a matter of two weeks, I think. And it had nothing to do with training. It had to do with the, the grunts I was serving with, the Marines, um, ya know these, these, at that time I was...I had turned twenty in June and left for Vietnam in July, so like, our Sergeant was like twenty one or twenty two. There were Lance Corporals and Corporals that were eighteen, nineteen, twenty. I was looking up to guys who were twenty one, twenty two who had been in Vietnam for six months. They were combat veterans. You know, I felt very confident, very secure. And how confident and secure can you feel when someone's had two or three months training? It's not much, but you did. You just knew somethmg was right and you knew when something was not right. You hear that adage, when he went out on the patrol, um, I, you, you learned or something was instant. I knew if we hit anything or someone stepped on a mine or something. I already knew who it was going to be before he even walked on it. I knew! You had a feeling of this stuff hit the fan I was going to be...place myself here because the first two that are going to get hit are these two guys because...there was no doubt in my mind. It was written all over them. The aura was there. I know people talk about that and talk...ya know...said that before. It's absolute...very seldom...um, when we did get hit, um, that you're wrong. You just knew it. Those who were in the rear, ..hear., talk about mom and dad, life with then-kids, man, stay away from 'em, cause your going to step on something. You know, it was absolutely true.
I did read that.
And it's true. It was true for me. So ah, so that was it. To this day, outside of Lt. Egan, I don't remember any names. I remember...I remember faces. I wouldn't know them today.
I think I was in my first casualty...I was there, what, maybe about four days...four, five days and we were on a riverbank. We had our perimeter set up on a riverbank, I don't remember what river it was, um, we were inland just a little bit and they came running over...someone yelling, "doc, doc, corpsman, corpsman", so I just took off running. I didn't hear gunshots or anything and a bunker had caved in on a Marine. And what they did...they put some airplane, ah, ah, tiles, that they put on runways, across and put sandbags on and some wood and some sand and it made it...it was just too wet, too heavy, and he was inside, one Marine was inside, nineteen. Um, that's all I can remember, he was nineteen years old, he was from Minnesota. And the bunker collapsed and it took them about a half hour just to dig through that stuff to get him out. I thought I had a pulse. Um, and we, I gave him mouth to mouth and you know, blah, blah, blah and a chopper came in and I thought he was alive, but today I'm not sure I thought he was or wanted to him to be because I had to show the guys that I knew my stuff and that I wasn't afraid and I didn't panic and all that stuff was running through my head.
Um, and that's interesting because now that you mention it, that wasn't learned. I just knew that they were depending on me and I had to be the tough guy. When I went out on patrol we had a .45, but I also carried an M-14, because I knew a .45...I'd have a better...if I ever had to use it, I'd have better luck throwing it that firing it at an enemy. With an M-14, it was a, was a, was a long gun, was a great weapon and I carried ammo and I helped somebody hump a rocket, um, or I'd carry extra, ya know, bandoleers for the machine gunner. And I carried the medical bag, ah, for a period of time, um, for stuff, but I tried to, you know, get rid of it as much as I could. I hated carrying that cause that's a, you know, it's a, it's a bright star on your head. So, I ended sewing more pockets, well, what appeared to be pockets, on my pants so I put my dressings, my morphine syrettes, scissors, anything, on my uniform, so I wouldn't have to carry the bag. I looked like a regular grunt, when I went out on the field. You didn't want to set yourself apart. You all wanted to look the same. That is one thing I learned from the guys. You know, you never know who was leading, who was a corpsman, you knew who your radioman was because the radio was there...but you didn't want to separate yourself from anybody. You didn't want...you didn't want to stand out. So, that was my first casualty. I was there for like a month, the individual died. You know, I wrote to the family. The Lieutenant wrote a
letter and asked if I'd write a letter. I wrote a letter. I didn't know the guy. You know, I didn't know anything about him, um, so I guess I made up a story. He was a wonderful guy and everybody liked him. That was my first experience and I'm still an idiot. I no idea what I needed to be doing, you know, and I'm writing a letter to, to the family and I remember getting a letter back from his sister and I wrote his sister a couple times. To this day, I don't know what I said. I have no idea. I don't remember anything. I remember writing to his sister and then I stopped writing, you know, when on with whatever else we were doing. But, you know, it was very strange. I felt very...I think I brought that back with me from Vietnam. I think it started then. I think I felt, very, very, very responsible. I felt very responsible to the guys and I think they did the same to me, but to whatever I've done from then, I went...from getting out, and going to school, or working in a provider's office, seeing patients, daily, and now I am where I want to be, working back with veterans.
Dealing with the hospital, to start the, the program. And it's good... and I know this where I belong. All along, this is where I belong because it helps...helps me more than them, I think, because of the anger that I, that I still have. I have a great deal of anger. Partially, because of the way the Vietnam veteran was treated, partially because, mostly because we allowed ourselves to be treated - that's what bothers me. Because we allowed it. You know, there, there are no victims unless you wish to be a victim. And we chose to be victimized by our own country and I think it's wrong and by not talking and by getting into little groups and saying I'm not going to be involved ...well, then we're allowing the same thing to happen to those from Afghanistan or, or, or Nicaragua or wherever they might come...they're going to come home to nothing. To absolutely nothing. Vietnam veterans are recognized, and Korea's recognized. You know, is Desert Storm recognized as much? No. Afghanistan, are they going to be recognized at all? What about Grenada? Ya know, what about Bosnia? Oh, somebody comes home and says, "I served in Bosnia." Big deal, it wasn't Vietnam. You know. But who knows what they went through? If they were living in mud for six, seven, eight months. You know. You don't have to be fired at to have a miserable time. I think, in Vietnam, being in the field was easy. But I would think being in the rear could have been difficult if you're in a place like Vietnam and you have rules and regulations here, but you know, one mile out, there are not rules and regulations. Then, that is pretty tough on these guys. And I know, having been to a couple of rap sessions and listening to some of the, the grunts who were in the field they give those office polls a bad time. I was, I was in the rear, um, my last two months, two, three months, two months, I think at a battalion aid station in Phu Bai and that was the worst time I ever had because, you, you know there were rockets, which you knew were coming in...I only had two months to go in country and we heard all the stories where, you know, this guy was killed with two days left and most of them were probably false, you know, but you heard all that stuff so you, then, you know if anyone had asked me, well, how did you feel at that time, you would have said, no way in hell because you do your time out there so ah, so ya know, as far as training goes, here I go again...ah, I would say little, at that time, little to no training. You knew what your job was and most of what you did you did on your own, I think. Um, there were not a lot of schools to go to but I think I was lucky because, again, having grown up in that area...era...I knew what the medic was all about, you know, or was supposed to be. Slides...something I had a vision in my head of what I was supposed to be doing and mainly was, um, I had to be strong and I had to be supportive and I had to be there and when the stuff hit the fan, if anybody panicked, it wasn't me. You know, that's one thing I had to get through my head and I banged and banged on that, working very hard; that I, yeah, that I had to be something very, very special. I knew that. That special...me... different, tough, and the fact that if something bad happened, somebody had to be cool and I was going to be that guy. It was as simple as that.
Well, that must have been good to have people...I'm sure they knew that and realized that...
I think so! And that's not 'blowing'. I think we had, at that time, in '66 when I was with 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines there was a confidence there. When we went out in the field I was never frightened. Even the day I was hit and then going to Japan. You know, going to Japan, the round was left in my shoulder and my chest and they took it out...and going back to Vietnam; I was concerned, all right, going back, but I wasn't afraid. When I went back out, I was fine. We had a certain, I think we had a certain trust. I think... see... it was this...you can tell I got off the point...we trusted each other. Didn't know each other. I don't even remember their names. I trusted them and I think what happened, what happened to the Vietnam veteran they had such tremendous trust in each other; when they came back they were separated from one another. The squad broke up and all that trust, when you got back...you were nothing! And there...you didn't, you didn't trust and nobody trusted you. First of all, you heard nobody trusted you because you were a crazy Vietnam veteran. So you stayed away...you don't trust them and their feelings. I think that's a pretty good analogy. In fact, we had, ah, ah, we had no choice. You had to trust this person and like I said if I felt that this person, if we were going to get hit...this guy was going to catch a round or step on a booby-trap, you know, I may have walked an extra two paces behind him, but I still knew where he was and if he was going to get hit, you were still going to take care of him, but you just didn't want to be around him because he was going to get hit. You know, there was that feeling, too. And we talked about that, when we got back. You know, Charlie is a wonderful guy, but ah, man, I hate to go out on an ambush with him. Man, I hate to go out on patrol with him. Not that he was bad, you know, you just knew there was something not right. He'd stumble, he'd fall. You know, he'd step on the path instead off the path. He'd walk fast, or he'd walk slower, you know, and he didn't carry himself right. There was something you just didn't...
He kinda had a bulls-eye on him.
Yeah! Bingo! He had a bulls-eye on him.
So, you were injured. You were wounded. More than once?
Twice. Yeah. First was a gunshot wound in the shoulder and chest and the second time when I came...I went to Japan, with that, and then came back with the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines, I was with them again for maybe another month and then they were looking for a corpsman, um, for 3rd Engineer Company. That was up in Dong Ha, further North and I took it because when I got back from Japan all the guys I had been with, had been wounded and transferred, so it wasn't my Lima Company, 3rd Battalion. It was...it was a whole new group, so it wasn't, you know, it wasn't home again. So I had to find another home...l felt. So I wouldn't be serving with the 1st Marines and I ended up with a Tunnel Rat Team. I joined the Tunnel Rat team with the Marine Corps and our, and our training was, our qualifications was that we were short. We were tiny little guys...four were Marine Corps, Marines and myself. We were short and we had no idea what we were doing and we...and they could, could fit into a tunnel. And it was great because they would fly us all over the place. But we were on a...we were flown out to an area were some engineers were working on a bridge. A bridge had been blown, ah, during the night and the Marines had set up a perimeter and they said, they, there were tunnels in the area. So they didn't fly us out there, they trucked us out there. This time we were trucked out there and we had a distance to walk out so we were there and the Marines had set up a perimeter and they were...I remember, it was funny thing, I don't remember where we were, out in no-man's land, in the jungle...here comes this grader down this dirt road. It was brand new...brand new grader! It amazed me. And, so the Lieutenant hops up on the grader..! was standing about, maybe twelve, twelve, fifteen feet away, up against a tree that was all blown apart, and guys were working, blah, blah, blah, and all of a sudden the 'lights went out'. The grader had been sitting on a, we figured, a forty pound box-charge mine and it blew and urn..I think. I was bora into a tree, lost my hearing. The grader operator was killed;
Lieutenant was wounded...he lost an eye and arm over here. And I didn't realize, but when I finally came to, I think I must have been knocked out...we were talking about that...because I just remember smelling smoke and seeing stuff. I knew there was firing going on and I didn't know...I thought it was 'incoming'...I think I could feel myself yelling, "incoming, incoming", because we were down, guys were down by...down by this bridge thing, so I laid low and I had to...had to be out for a while because I was thinking...these choppers were already coming in. Medivacs were already coming in so there had to be some time. I had...I had been out for a period of time so I went over to the Lieutenant. Um, he had an eye hanging out and did his arm. Grader operator was killed. By that time somebody else came in and took them away. See, I think I had a concussion. I mean because...now I do. I didn't know what was going on then, but I lost my hearing and uh, and I remember going back to where the tree was and you know...I think it had to be a concussion, now, because I wasn't afraid, but I was noticing in the tree there was a nut. It had to be an inch, an inch wide, and probably two inches around that, when the blast went, it must have come from the grader, had blown into the tree right where I was standing. There was a nut from a tire...something from that grader and it was embedded in that tree. So if I had been standing this way, you know you start going, this way, that way. If I had...standing... you'd have been killed in combat by a flying bolt from, from a, from a grader. That's what would have happened. Um, but then once we finished whatever we did, whatever was going on that day, we walked out of that area to meet trucks. They tried ropes to my front and my back because I couldn't hear. And I got back, I remember the chief, the chief in 1st Class came running when I pulled in; they brought us in by truck to the rear area; came running out and he kept on saying, "Jesus Christ...we heard you were killed!"And he was almost saying that angrily. Like, "you stupid son-of-a-gun". Is it... "Jesus Christ, we heard you were killed...the corpsman was killed". And you know I was, I think I was reading lips...how much I was hearing, but that was the word...that was the word. So he took me over and checked my ears and I was in the area for about a week. There were choppers and trucks...I could feel them, but I couldn't hear, about six, seven days I lost my hearing and it gradually came back to a point where I felt I was fine, but I wasn't fine. So, I am wearing hearing aids for about eight years but it took me a long time through the VA to get the hearing aids. When I first came back in '69 I mentioned my hearing. Hearing about what happened. I remember being told, "now, well, we do nothing for hearing" - at that time. You know, so fine...you didn't do anything and then as it got worse and worse and worse I had to do something. So it was a group at a state's veterans council that I worked with, urn, on...Isn't that something? Your hearing impaired at zero percent, which was one thing. I was hearing impaired at zero percent, but at least afford you hearing aids and stuff. So these are life savers...without them, I'm totally lost.
But even though your hearing was diminished, they kept you there?
Ah, well, yeah. You see, I didn't know it was diminished at that time. See...see...see you don't know. You're, you're here in Vietnam. You want to leave, you don't want to leave, you know. You want to leave cause you want to get the hell of out there. You don't want to leave your 'family' behind. You know. So I was that, so I stayed there for a while. I had two months to go. Because I had been wounded twice they were getting me out of the field so I went to Phu Bai, 3rd Battalion, 3rd Bed Battalion in Phu Bai and in Phu Bai I worked in triage and I was corpsman for an outpatient...new outpatient thing that we started which was taking care of local villagers, the Vietnamese. So we took care of, you know, just...we didn't have much. We had a few antibiotics and some, some Neosporin cream and some, ah some, ah, some medica..some pills that help for diarrhea, dysentery, but that was about it. At least we were doing something. People washing, cleaning wounds and have them come back making sure they came, too. At least you felt you were doing something, so, I did that for two months. In August,
August of '67...yeah, I came back. Over in '66 and back in '67.
Did you receive any medals?
Yeah, I received two purple hearts. Um, I received the bronze star with a combat V for, for an instance that happened. We were ambushed and our Squad Leader was the first one that was hit and there were other hits, other hits too, and I went out and just did my thing. You know, just what you're supposed to do. What I didn't realize was that I had been wounded myself. Ah, in the shoulder and I didn't know I'd been hit until I was trying to take care of business and so there was blood coming off my hand and I kept on wiping it, but it kept on coming, even though I wasn't touching the wound I was looking at. I kept on having blood and finally I saw a hole in my, my shirt and I realized I'd been hit. I still finished the stuff. The choppers came in and the other guys helped put them on the chopper and they were taken care of and I remember somebody gave me a boost up and that's the last thing I remember. I guess I passed out from loss of blood or something. But I I remember hitting the chopper floor; um, the next thing I was being carried on a stretcher to a, back to Da Nang, N.S.A., Naval Support Activity, ah, where they were going to take the round out and that's where I woke up.
And were you sent home after that?
No, I went to Japan. They did some minor surgery. They didn't remove it, because of the, I guess the climate and they couldn't really know the possibility of infection, so they sent me to Japan and removed the round in Japan and with physical therapy and then I had a choice of staying in Japan to finish up my tour or come back to Vietnam. So I chose to go back to Vietnam. If I was going to be overseas, I was going to be with the guys I was originally with and that is how I went back and realized all those guys were wounded, hit, killed or moved on. So I stay with them for a while and then when an opportunity came up to go someplace else, I went with the 3rd Engineers - to start all over again.
Okay, now is a good time, I am going to stop and change the tape.
Sure...
I am continuing my interview with
My service in Vietnam?
Yes.
I certainly do. I had been out in the field. Ah, no, I, no, I had been out in the field. I was at the Aid Station. I was waiting for the day, I didn't know how it was going to happen, but I was in Phu Bai and I don't think I even had stuff packed. They came and said there was a plane landing and I'd be going back to Da Nang. Um, so I don't remember grabbing the bag. I don't remember much about that fact except being on a plane and landing in Da Nang. Um, I had nothing there. I had no clothes. They, they gave us...where we went, we ended up with some Khakis and we left Da Nang for, we left Da Nang, we flew to Okinawa. I think we spent a couple days in Okinawa. That is where we had left our bags going to Vietnam and supposedly there was a fire and all our stuff was lost so we got...they got us some new gear. One Navy uniform and my Marine Corps greens and I think we were there for two days. I don't remember leaving base. I don't even know what... I don't remember that now. But then being on a plane...the next thing I knew we were in New York and coming home. Don't think...it took three, four days. I don't remember what we did during those three, four days. I remember - telling us, in Okinawa...oh, no, we flew from Okinawa back to El Torro, in California and we got back there, getting off the...they picked us by bus and here we are on a base and we're looking and...I remember looking like...we just did come off the field and we were a mess. We were really a mess! But other people marching along...jeeps going by and looking at us, you know, um. They must have known we had just got back from Vietnam. And they, they were taking us all to this one barrack. I remember a Sergeant. It was a Staff Sergeant, um, he said, you know, "It is good to see you guys here. You're going to have a couple days to rest up before you take off. Um, the PX is there. You'll be getting your financial stuff taken care of here. I want to give you guys a 'heads-up'. Hit the PX...travel in civilian clothes. Do not travel in your uniform, ah, only because it's going to be easier for you to get a flight in civilian clothes than in uniform." Now, I didn't know why. I mean...we were involved. I didn't know anything about protesting while I was in Vietnam. Everything was positive. When I came home I knew, I just thought, you know, everything's going to be positive. So, I didn't, I didn't...you know, the fact that...okay, well, you know, I was going to be...you know, I thought I was going to be cheaper for me if I stayed in uniform, but if they say I can get the hell out of here faster wearing civilian clothes, then I'm wearing civilian clothes. Maybe because there were so many military out there...you know, I didn't know what to think. So, we over....I remember getting some shirts, some shoes and stuff, urn, before we even went to the barracks, I think. I did anyway. I don't remember who was with me. If anyone was with me. I remember, the PX first, getting money and then going to the PX and buying a couple of outfits and going back, I think, getting out as soon as possible. But wear civilian clothes...we flew into John...JKF...and I, it was late at night and the next plane...stand-by...um, wasn't taking off, like, eight o'clock the next morning. It was like eleven o'clock at night and no way in hell I was going to stay there. So I took the train from New York to Albany and my sister picked me up in Albany about three o'clock in the morning. Two or three o'clock in the morning, or four. Three or four o'clock in the morning in Albany and drove to Fair Haven, from there. It was my sister that picked me up. I remember.it was bang, bang... I just kept moving. I knew I had to keep moving. I had to get home. I had to get out...I didn't want to be in California. I didn't want to be in New York I didn't want anything to do with planes. I just, you know, um, I just had to be home. So, it was a matter of that and I was home. And I remember getting in and my mom...and saying hello and I think we had a cup of tea. I went to...my mom...it was five o'clock, six o'clock, seven o'clock in the morning. Um, and that's it and I think I went to bed and I remember the next day, some people stopping by saying, "Oh, it was nothing special." You know. "Oh, you're home. How was your trip? And how was... and how did you?" I remember one of the guys saying, "Look you have to go up to the Legion," and I was ready! And I wanted to go up to the Legion because those were the guys I had always looked up to. So I, I had been home a couple days before I did anything, I guess. My mom mentioned that to me, later on in years. My mom passed away a couple of years ago...she was my best friend, by the way. And um, she mentioned the fact that it was like three days when I just sat and looked and drank milk, from the milk, from the milk, you know. We had milk delivered at the house...milk. I drank milk for like three days. Um, and I talked. There was nothing special, but I...she remembered I wasn't anxious to leave the house or leave the porch. I stayed and talked to people, but I wasn't...she knew something was different. RJ: And that's something, that picture there
It wasn't bad. I was at...I had just, well I just turned twenty one in Vietnam.
So, twenty one in Vietnam, so I was twenty one. Was I twenty one? Yeah.
Twenty one, so uh, I knew I was...I had some stuff to do, um, fun and games were over.
I was ready for some business. And that's, ya know, and ah, I then met my wife. My wife was a, was a Navy Corpswave and I was working in physical therapy and she was working in pediatrics and she..she was going to nursing school at that time and...um...
Where was this?
I'm sorry?
Where was this?
Saint Albans, Naval Hospital, in New York. I think it's closed now. So, we were working...she brought out this little kid. This child that had Cerebral Palsy. So, I was working on upper body strength at that time for, for paraplegics and quadriplegics. It was a whole new program that we were starting. Again, we have to go back to 1966 and they didn't have it at Saint Albans. At Saint Albans was bringing in, you know, hundred, hundred and thirty, uh, new patients per day...per day! Coming into that place. So, it was a busy place. So that is where I met my wife and we have been married for...we have been married for thirty five years in August.
But I knew I had stuff to do, and ah, so when I got out..ah..at St. Albans, and I was getting out soon and you know, jobs, ah, were coming in.
Information on jobs. I remember that was a job that said Athletic Trainer at Dartmouth College and the date was, like, three days away. So, I was discharged on a, on a Friday...took off from St. Albans, went to Dartmouth on Monday and had an interview. Went back, like, on Thursday. Had another interview and had the job as an Athletic Trainer a week later. So, I got out on Friday and went to work the next Monday. You know, so it was not something...
You didn't waste any time!
Didn't waste any time. I, I knew that, so...I had always been like, that's what Vietnam taught me. Um, and that's why I say, I wasn't like that before I left for Vietnam. And, so that is why I am so thankful for everything that I did. Everything, you know, was good, see trying to keep the bad away. But the good part was the, Vietnam was the excellent experience for me in discipline and motivation. And I think that's what I needed. I think. So that's what I, that's what I tell myself that is what it was all about, but anyways...
Did you ever use the G.I. bill for any education?
Yes, ah, for Dartmouth. For the, ah, Dartmouth Physician Assistant Program. Um, that was...done...under..it was ah, I received money every month and was taken care of by the G.I. Bill.
What years did you go?
Seventy...I graduated in '73, so I think it was seventy one to seventy three. It was, it was two years. I was like six months at Dartmouth and six months out in the field and that's when...um, at that time...see, that's, twenty, that's thirty years ago, too. Um, that's thirty years ago, you know! God Almighty! But, ah, anyway, there were twenty four students and we were the second graduating Physician Assistant class. And physician assistants weren't known at that time, so we were pioneers of that, that, that ah, occupation, as well as...and that's when I came to Meredith. I had five interviews, in five different places and those doctors picked their top five...we picked our top five and I was their choice in Meredith and their's was my choice and I we have been here 30 years.
Did you make any close friendships while you were in the service?
Um...yes. Yes. Ah...I had a lot of friends. A lot of friends, every place I went. It always seemed that...you know, that's when you started to drink your beers and end up at a club and party as much as you can. It was like when I got back to St. Albans. I got back in August and I only had less than a year to go and I partied, very, very hard. Um, there were...and that's...when I hear of Vietnam and drugs...I never saw a drug. I never saw marijuana. I never saw grass. I never saw anything else that was supposed to be used. Um, and when I got back to St. Albans, I started to see some marijuana, there. Grass being used more...when I hear about all these Vietnam druggies, it really upset me. I mean because, man, that never would have happened when we were there. It never would have happened when we were there...in '66. It just wouldn't...it didn't happen. But, you know, we had our beers and Coca Colas so we started that. It's like...when I came back, not for any reason, just because I think, now, looking back at it, I was catching up and I had to keep moving. Always, see to this day, I feel like I have to keep moving, so and when you finished work, where did you go? You went to a club. At that time there were bands and booze was cheap so you drank with your friends. I had one...a number of good friends, but one, the one I remember was Ernie Vargas and I've been trying to find him, today...for years and I can't. Ernie was, ah, in Vietnam with me. The day I got hit and they were taking me...I remember Ernie and he was calling out on a dike and he was cursing at me for getting hit because that means he had to come out and take my place and he is a good guy. God, he is a good guy. And we were out on an island. We were off on an island one night and the island got hit, was overrun. And Ernie and I...Ernie was with another...I was with the Lima Company and he was with, too, he was with a different squad, but he always kept his .45 with him. He kept on, half cocked and we were starting to get hit and we went to jump into the foxholes, his .45 went off and it grazed his leg. I mean, he was just lucky because it could have blown his foot off; and he hated it because being, being Filipino, whenever he went out on patrol the Vietnamese would go, "hey, same same" you know; you're same as me and he hated it! But he was so much fun and I remember he didn't drink, so when I left Vietnam, I left before he did. When I got back to St. Albans, um, I knew Ernie would be coming back and we had talked, somehow, I don't remember. But he was an E-5...he was an E-5 and I was an E-5 and we were going to be in charge of a bay. Meeting the other guys who were going to Viet..Vietnam. So we had this room at St. Albans; St. Albans was a beautiful place. And we..so I got the biggest room...I was one of the first ones back, plus I was a hero. I had two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star and man, I played it as much as I could! If they were going to be worth something, they were going to be worth something, so I got the biggest room and I saved half for Ernie. So when Ernie came back we were roommates and we...and the difference was Ernie was a neat-nick, completely neat. Didn't drink...
My wife says, you know, I was..when she married me she told me I was one of the worst human being she ever met! I was, I was arrogant and I was playing those Purple Hearts and Bronze Star. I mean, nobody could tell me anything and I was ready to fight, I mean, you know. Not, not argument...arrogantly, I don't think. But, ah, if anybody said anything against me or mine, you know, it was that...it was...and I think going back, I...I...it was the fact that...I think I knew we were going to be losing that comrade...losing that comradeship and you did lose it. And no matter where you went, you again, even though you were at classes with twenty four guys, you work with people all your life you never, ever find that again. Never. Well, never, ah...not working, starting this veteran program I was close to that as I ever was, you know, because I'm seeing the same type of guys and the only different is they're fifty six and fifty seven years old. And I want to make sure those that, you know, that come home from Afghanistan and wherever...I don't want to HEAR, um, um that they're not worth anything. I, like, I never felt that way. I know others did. It upset me that they felt that way, you know. If you feel that way, that means I'm in that same boat and I'm not putting myself in that damn boat, you know. I know what I did. I know what the guys who I served with did. You know and I know we, we did a lot of stuff and ah, I'm not, I'm not going have that, I'm not going to carry that load, so if you're going to carry that, you're going to carry it by yourself. And I HATE the fact that you're going to do that and I don't you near me, you know, because that's wasn't...that's not pride, you know. We had a lot of pride. We had a lot of honor and I'm not going to have my honor used against me at any time and I think that's what happens today. With veterans they're sitting back and don't want to tell their story, you know, um their honor...and they don't want to speak out. We have to be careful. And we're dumb enough, as an organ...group...veterans...our organizations, I belong to all of them, alright. When we see our politicians, every two, four, six years and I see guys with their organizational hats standing beside them, to make it look it like we support them I want...that bothers...
Do you feel today's citizens are patriotic?
Are patriotic. Um..I think I want to believe today's citizens are patriotic and ya know, we hear nine, one, one, well we also had twelve, seven. You know, we have eleven, eleven. We have five, thirty one. There are lots of days we should be remembering. Um, and so after nine, eleven, we had all those flags coming out and I have a young man who works with me here and he says, you know, you know, you're, you're so hard on people and you know, you're, you're 'over the, the top' as far as patriotism goes and I, I, don't think I am. But seeing all those flags...and he was so happy and I was, I was so pleased to see 'em on one hand and on the other hand I knew it wasn't going to last. See, I know we forget so fast. Ah, I, you know, to come back to you can talk about it, well we forget about it. So, I think it is better now. There is more patriotism now than before nine, eleven. I think that's because of nine, eleven, because of what's happening in Iraq, at this time. You know, sometimes, I almost feel it's forced patriotism, you know. Um, I just...I hope, I hope to see more flags...ah, a continuation of that but, you know, it's dwindled a lot now. We forget too easy. We're soft. We're so soft and we don't understand what can happen and nine eleven should show us it can happen, you now...like that. Um, and so ah, see, I want to believe it because I believe in it and I have no problem. I get in trouble, sometimes. I got in trouble on Veterans Day when I said, " Because of nine, eleven, patriotism and we can celebrate nine, eleven on December 7th or November 11th, or any time we want to celebrate it...it's all the same, as far as I'm concerned, it's because of what happened it should be okay now... if you see someone sitting when the Colors go by, you give them a kick and tell them to stand." And somebody wrote in a newspaper, that Bob Jones can say that our children, ah...the aggressive nature of what he said about giving somebody a kick if they don't stand for the flag...well, that flag means freedom and if you don't want to stand you shouldn't and I just wanted... again, you know, um...I know the individual, so, so I can laugh on one hand, but I want to strangle him on the other. And he's an ex-Marine and he served in Vietnam. Um, so it's just amazing to me, but he...I also think he's 'blown out", actually. But ah, yeah, yeah, so patriotism is different, but it's up to us, you know. And if patriotism dies out, we as Vietnam Veterans today... we, you know, we are the ones that should be, you know, saying it...patriotism, flag, mother, and apple pie with our eyes open, this time. I'm not saying, follow
blindly. Keep the eyes open and you will lead with the head and the heart ...not just the heart. You know, um, and keep, and not be afraid to say, " I don't care, this is wrong". If you want to raise the flag, raise the flag and you know. To get back to the P.O.W. issue. The fact that we have an issue and we wear a little patch or we wear a, we wear a P.O.W. bracelet, but we have a flag that doesn't mean 'diddley' if we're not actually doing something. We still have a pilot missing from Desert Storm, today. Michael Scott Speicher is missing and I don't hear an outcry from people. I don't hear an outcry from veterans. I don't hear any outcry. That frightens me! Because we're all ready to send young men and women off to Iraq, tomorrow, to do whatever and this guy...he's mentioned...occasionally, on CNN. All those who should know, veterans organizations, our senators, and congressmen, they know about this and their not saying anything. And were not...and we shouldn't be saying anything; every time you say something on this issue, the fact is you're a little 'left of norm'; well, I don't give a fat-rats butt if I'm a little 'left of norm'; I know what's right and wrong. And I know by doing this to this person and his family... it's wrong and it's a problem for national security. Because if the word ever, if it is every realized by mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters, that this could happen and you're knowingly left behind, that is a national security problem. We should realize that. All we need for the P.O.W. issue is truth. We know people are left behind. We know, we know for whatever reason they were knowingly left behind...we knew they were there. We did it because of this reason or policy or politically. Get it out so it never happens again. If we continue to go it's going to happen again and again and again. And patriotism, yes, do I feel...I have granddaughters. Would I feel comfortable having my granddaughter in the military, yes. Tn fact, I hope all three go to military school, really. What I feel, do I feel confident that my government, Republican or Democrat would do everything in their power to bring my loved one home, if they were captured...no I do not! If something, if there was something political or something economic, economics, could be put before my loved one, I realize that would happen. It's already...it's been done. Um, and it would happen again. Um, and if we're going to do that, fine, but if we say, you know... we're leaving three hundred behind, now. Because of whatever reason we couldn't get them; a negotiation; you know our, our diplomatic measures didn't work, um...you know...they were kept there, for whatever reason, but they're there, yes. They were..here are their names and they were knowingly left behind. You know, and we can't start another, Third World War to go them. All understood. Okay, let's belly-up and see what we can do about it. But don't keep lying about it. Don't say it didn't happen. And when I hear people like John Kerry, all...Democrat aside...I haven't got a lot of love for John McCain, either, even though he was an ex-P.O.W. As a United States Senator, he could have done a lot more and he did not. So, when I saw veterans running around, beside John McCain and his 'straight talk bus' it wasn't straight talk. It was for him, himself. He's selfish. He did nothing. He ran from the families who wanted questions about their own loved ones. Did he suffer? Yes. Is he a P.O. W. hero like all the others? Yes, he is. Um, was he lucky to have a father who was an Admiral? Yes, he was. Um, does he suffer today? Yes he does. Tremendously, I'm sure. He went through physical and emotional, whatever. We, we can't imagine what they went through. But I still...he's a United States Senator who did nothing. He did nothing and that's a black mark on his soul and I believe he knows it. But I believe he's arrogant enough to push it out of the way because ninety percent of the population just doesn't understand that. It's just the ten percent or less over here who goes, "Hey man", you know, um um, yes you do owe more because you are more. Because you suffered more you owe more today to the families who didn't come home. And John Kerry's the same way. Um, he's done more on behalf of the people...the Communist Government of Vietnam. He's outspoken about the people of Vietnam. The people of Vietnam are wonderful. I learned...I learned persistence and patience from the people of Vietnam.
We're talking about the Vietnam Government...the Communist Government.
And you know, when he puts...and these guys...how come he says...these guys - economics - come first. You know, we're feathering our own bed. And he's...is he going to have veterans supporting him? I can see a million Vietnam veterans supporting him because he's a Vietnam veteran. Nobody wanted to support John McCain, more than I did. Nobody likes to support John Kerry, more than I would, being a Vietnam veteran, but they sold their souls. Both of them. Because of John Kerry, Democrat...because of John McCain, Republican...Bill Clinton, um, raised the embargo; gave away one of the few hopes the people had...that the families had. You know, they sold America... he sold America's soul and they were part of it. They allowed him to do it. It was their okay that gave him the right to do that. Um, so...I'm way off the subject again. But ah, I think that's what we should be involved in today. You know, as a Vietnam veteran...take our place at the political table. We're not there. We can't play the bean and beer, ah, free dinner...meal, that our veterans that went before us. Today the Legion, the V.F.W., the D.A. V.
I hope they're changing...I don't know. But we should be speaking out. The fact that we have a charter, it's a charter organization...if we can't speak out...um..on the right thing...I have not heard one word from any of the national organizations concerning, concerning Captain Michael Scott Speicher. I have not heard any outcry! Not one thing! And all the evidence, all the evidence says, you know, eighteen different places...ah, captured alive, brought into Bagdad. British intelligence...our own... till.. I got all...today...more stuff today. The fact that all evidence states he's alive. Why would Saddam hold him? Where? I'm not getting into that because no one knows. The fact is he's alive and we're not talking. We're not even about it! We're not even talking and we're talking about raising the flag? And we're going...and I have a rough time. That's why mine's tucked away. Nobody's going to touch my flag! But the flag that's out there I worry about a great deal because it's abused daily. Their burning it isn't half as bad as those who're in the three piece suits in D.C., who are abusing it on a daily basis and have not done a thing on behalf of that flag and that bothers me! So, ah..I don't even know where I am in the conversation...
Is there anything else you would like to add that we haven't covered?
I don't think so. I think I shot my mouth off more than I have in a long time! Ah, no and I appreciate the opportunity just to get it out of me, I guess more than anything. But, no, I'm very, I'm a very, very, very proud individual. Vietnam veterans, all veterans, but Vietnam veterans are very special to me. I wish they were special to themselves. Um, maybe someday they will. I think it's important for us, because we're going to have others serving after us and I don't want them treated like we were treated by World War II - Korean veterans. Treated by being forgotten and washed away. We've heard that Vietnam veterans are whiners. I want to be the biggest whiner in the world, if I can, if it helps other veterans with needs that they have today. You know, we wave that flag, but once that flag gets folded and put away, who gives a rat's-ass about those who served? Few. Few care. It's a shame to wave it...send them...because they're somebodies babies who are being sent and I think we're selfish in our honor. We don't seem to care. That's all.
Thank you for sharing a piece of your life with me and I will try to do justice to your story and see that it gets sent to the Library of Congress for documentation.
Thank you.