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The recording of the interview with Donald W. Stenzel was digitized.
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This is the oral history of World War II veteran Donald W. Stenzel. Mr. Stenzel served in the U.S. Army Air Corps with the Eighth Air Force in the European theater. His highest rank was staff sergeant. I'm Tom Swope, and this recording was made at Mr. Stenzel's home in North Ridgeville, Ohio, on November 6th, 2002. Don was 78 at the time of this recording.
Where were you living in 1941 when the war started for America?
I was in -- living in Cleveland, on the west side of Cleveland. Was going to -- was in my final year of -- of high school. And I graduated from high school in '42, 1942, and wound up -- started to go to school at what was Fenn College at that point, Cleveland State now, and wound up that I -- in -- let me see. It was in November of 1942 that they passed the law to draft 18-year-olds. I was 18 years old. And December I got a notice from the draft board to come in and sign -- sign up. And in January -- late January, I was called in for a physical. And in March, I was in the service.
Before November '42, what was the draft age that they were drafting?
21.
21?
Yeah, 21 that -- so that -- in fact, the -- when we got on -- a Saturday morning we had to report down at the Cleveland terminal to get on a train to go to Camp Perry. It was almost like the whole graduating class was there at that time. Went out to Camp Perry, spent a week there just getting indoctrination, taking some tests and that, and then they put us on -- some of us on a train, took us down to St. Petersburg for basic training, six weeks of basic training. Wound up that a week later, they took some of us and put us on a train and shipped us off to Denver, where I went into three months of armament training at a field up there, Fort Buckley. Wound up that after that was over, they put us on a train again and shipped us down to Panama City, Florida, for three months of gunnery training. Wound up after that, they put us on a train again and drove up -- and sent us up to Salt Lake City, Utah. And at that point they gave us a two-week pass, so I was able to come home. And that was in September of -- or October of '43 I came home.
Anything particularly unusual happen during your training?
Not particularly. It was just standard training, nothing unusual at all that I could -- that I can remember that had happened. I spent so much time on trains, and you'd wind up on the train in the middle of nowhere, and the train would pull over onto a siding, and they'd let us out of the train on -- on the one side. And at that time, of course, most everybody smoked. And so everybody smoked. We'd wait and wait, and finally we'd hear another train. Then all of a sudden, here it would come rushing through, a freight train that had priority. And so you wound up that you waited, and the freight train passed. They'd say, "Everybody on board again!" and you'd get moving again. But other than that, not much. Got back to Salt Lake City, and they were assigning crews. And we wound up -- we got a crew. A train took us up to Boise, Idaho, and we went into training as a crew then. And that was basically to get us organized. There were ten men on the crew, six enlisted men and four officers. And you'd take flights and fly up in that area during the day. At night -- so it was basically that. Wound up after that training, which was -- let me see. That was -- that wound up till -- till I think in March, early March, that they sent us to Topeka, Kansas, and we picked up a new B-24 there. Flew it down to West Palm Beach, Florida. And at that point we -- we took off and we took the southern route since it was still more or less in the wintertime, what they considered wintertime. And an hour after we took off, the pilot was going to open up the orders of where we were going. We found out that we were going to England. When you were going the southern route, you could either go to England or you could go to Italy, so that but we wound up in England. Flew down to Trinidad, over to Velame, and -- and then found an oil leak in one of the -- in one of the engines, and so we spent I think it was three days down there -- most of these places you just spent overnight and took off -- which enabled us to get over to a beach and -- in Brazil and -- and entertain ourselves. Took off and went over to Dakar, Africa, and then up to Marrakesh and then up -- and flew around Portugal and up to England at that point and gave up the -- gave up the plane then. We thought that was going to be our plane, but it didn't turn out that way.
Why was that?
They were putting us on to training over in Ireland for two weeks. And what they wound up was that evidently that plane then whenever -- where it was going. We had painted a -- a picture on the plane and gave it a name, but we never did see that plane again.
What was the name?
Sempre Pronta is what we called it, with a typical Petty girl painted -- painted on there. Then we'd wind up by train going up to Blackpool and across over to Ireland for two weeks of training. Then left there and came back, and then we were assigned to a base. Name of the town was Tibenham. It was up in -- around Norfolk. [Telephone answering machine beeping and synthesized voice speaking.]
That's our message?
No, I'm not sure what that is.
Kind of scary.
I thought you were going to get it.
What was your outfit?
It was the 445th Bomb Group.
Mm-hmm.
We were in the 702nd Squadron.
Mm-hmm.
They took us there, and wound up the -- about the only exciting thing that -- as we were driving to the base in a typical eight-by-eight truck, and the -- with the country roads are very narrow. In fact, they weren't really made for England -- or United States trucks, you know. And we were -- and they've got those hedgerows. So all of us, the ten of us and all our luggage, was in the back of the truck. And this guy was screaming down the lane, and we were just sitting there. And then all of a sudden he slammed on the brakes, and all of us piled up in the -- in the front of the -- in the front of the truck there, all our baggage and our -- our pilot, who was the -- who was really the guy that governed us. Oh, he really got upset. And he really -- he started yelling at the -- and here what happened is he'd come to an intersection, and an English car had come along. And all of a sudden he saw it and he stopped. And didn't crash into it or anything, but -- so we had to all settle down. Finally got to the air base. And our first mission was in -- was in April of '43 is that we had our -- our first mission.
What was the target?
I don't recall. Most of -- most of all our targets were in France and Germany.
Mm-hmm. Do you remember --
Different locations.
What did you feel like on that first mission? Do you remember?
Well --
Vivid memories of that?
I wasn't sure what was happening, you know. I was young. And I wasn't too concerned, too worried, but I suppose I was -- I was stupid and didn't know, you know, what was going on. But we didn't have any -- any real problem that I can remember. All you did was you -- you flew up, took off one by one and then gathered. And the CO of the -- of the 445th had a Thunderbird fighter -- fighter plane, all striped up, and he'd get up there. And, of course, then the first planes that took off would -- would slow down, and then you'd gather into your grouping because you normally had the typical grouping of -- of 12 planes. Each squadron would send up 12 planes. You'd have three, three, three, and three and in a -- and tight as you could get. And then once you -- once you gathered and with all the other groups, then you'd start heading for the Channel and gaining altitude at that time. So up to that point we really didn't -- I was in the waist. So you really didn't have too much to do at that time. So we sat back there and just waited. Once you -- once you got over the Channel, you were pretty close to altitude, and normally we flew anywhere from 25 to 30,000 feet is -- is what we would fly. As far as I remember, on the first -- first mission, we didn't see any enemy planes at all. We'd -- it was primarily flak that -- that we saw, and that was the first time we -- of course, we saw flak, the black -- the black puffs that you would see. And then, of course, you'd look at it and you'd wonder about it, you know. But -- but I don't recall too much about that as far as being a problem at that time. The missions were all different lengths, you know. You never knew when you were -- when you were going to fly. The six enlisted men were in enlisted men's barracks, and they all slept right next to each other, along with other crews. And the -- the clerk from the -- from headquarters would come in with a flashlight and -- because you always got up in the -- early. And he'd come in with a flashlight, and then he knew exactly where all the crews were and who were flying, and then he'd -- he'd just wake that -- those crews up in the morning and tell us what time breakfast was, what time briefing was. And -- and that's -- that's what you had to hit.
So about what time would he generally wake you up?
Depended whether you were taking off real early. It could be like three, four o'clock in the morning that you'd wake -- that he'd wake you up. If it was a before-light takeoff, normally what they would do is they'd have the tail gunner in the back. And he would have an Altus lamp, like a big flashlight. And he'd have a code -- one of the codes, like dot-dot-dash, dot-dot-dash or whatever, some letter. Then all he would do is he'd sit back there and -- and flash that. And that was for the plane that was taking off behind us would see that. And then -- then you'd group -- then you'd -- and then you'd make a flight. And as soon as it was light enough to pick out the planes, then they'd start gathering, and then they'd head off there. If it was light enough, of course, you didn't have to get into that. But we'd have a -- have a breakfast at the mess hall, then go to this briefing. And that's when you found out where you were going that day. They had a -- they had a big map that was covered, and then they'd take the cover off, and it was the Europe and -- and Great Britain. And then it had like a red thread that indicated just where you were going and what the target was at that time. So you found out then where you were going. And the missions could last -- it depended. If it was France, it would be a shorter mission. They might only be six, seven hours, something like that. But if you were going up to Germany and especially in the -- in the upper, near Poland, if you were going up there, you could get into nine, ten -- ten hours, something like that. Most of the missions weren't -- weren't too much of a problem. We -- we flew up into the Baltic there several times, but we could never convince the pilot to go -- to go over to Sweden. Or we'd get down to -- into France, lower part of France. You might get over to see the Alps. But we couldn't convince him to go to Switzerland either since they were neutral countries, you know. But only a couple of things that -- that I can remember as far as the missions were concerned. My job as an armorer on the flight was once we got over into -- over France or towards Germany, the bombs had a -- had a cotter pin in them with a tag on them. And what I would do is grab an oxygen bottle, go into the bomb bay, and pull the cotter pins with these tags on, which meant that the -- once they start falling, there's a little -- a little propeller on them that would come and that would arm them then. So I'd go in -- into the bomb bay and take those -- all those out, arm them, and then go back to my position and just keep an eye open. We'd -- we'd stand and just keep looking, see whether we saw any -- any planes, enemy planes or not.
And your other job was waist gunner, right?
Right, yeah. I flew tail gunner one mission, that was all. But the rest of them I was in the waist. The other job that -- that we had in the waist was the belly turret gunner. You never lowered the turret unless you were being attacked by enemy planes. And the belly turret guy would just sit there waiting, you know. And if you didn't lower it, he didn't ever got into it. But we had to lower it a number of times. And all I remember about him was that to me, he was an old man because he was, I think, 31 at the time. But most -- and he was the oldest one of the whole group. And he really didn't like getting into that ball turret. They wore a backpack parachute. The rest of us had -- had snap-ons, the pack. And but he had a backpack and -- well, the tail gunner had a backpack too because both of those, the tail gunner could turn his turret and then pop the door, and he could fall out if he had to. And the tail gunner could basically do the same thing. He could rotate it so the door was at the bottom, knock the door out, and then just fall out of it. But this -- this fellow, he was concerned. He -- he worried. And every time that we had to lower the ball turret and he had to get in -- he'd get in, and then you had to lower it down. And he really -- his eyes -- you looked at him, and you could see he was really worried. He was married, had a family so that it wasn't like the rest of us that were really not married at all and just our mothers and fathers back at home. But then you had -- after it was all -- after the planes had left, then you'd pull him back up again, and he -- he got out. One time we were on a mission. It was in France and a lot of flak. And we wound up that all of a sudden, the pilot was having problems. And the engineer, who was the top turret guy, he sent him back to look at it. And one of the cables for the tail had been hit by the -- by flak. And he couldn't keep the speed up as far as keeping up with the -- keeping up with the group. Everything would start shaking. And so he had to cut the speed down. And then finally he told the group leader that he couldn't keep up, that the -- he had to cut his speed way down. And so we had to leave the -- the rest of the group and go on ourselves. And he started going down and kept reducing speed to get rid of this -- this flutter. And he says, "I don't know whether we're going to be able to make it or not. I have to see how low I can get with my speed to get rid of this shaking." And so he told us just to get ready. We opened the back hatch. He told us to put our chutes on and just wait and see. Well, fortunately he was able to get the speed way down where it wasn't shaking. But again, we were all by ourselves. And so we didn't know whether we would run into any enemy fighter planes or not. Fortunately we didn't, and we got across the Channel. And he says, "I'm going to take it in to the nearest field that we can find." So we wound up -- we were down at -- at a low level. And he -- he found a B-17 field. And so they fire -- we fired a flare, telling them we were -- had a problem. And they told us what runway to come in on, and so we came in on it. And all of a sudden -- we had landed and was going on that runway when all of a sudden we saw a B-17 on a cross runway landing. And fortunately there was enough room that we got across before that '17 -- as it turned out, we found out later on that the '17 had gotten to the end of the runway, and the engines -- he had ran out of gas so that he had flared too, but they didn't know what to do. Well, we spent the night at the '17 field, and then they transferred us back to the base and left the plane there. And they fixed the plane and then came up and brought the plane back to the -- back to the base. That's the closest that I ever got to bailing out on there. So but we were ready, but fortunately we didn't have to do anything.
Did this plane have a name?
Weepin' Willie. Yeah, "weepin'." Weepin' Willie, not "weeping." Weepin' Willie there. You usually flew the same plane all the time, though we had a couple incidents too that I know of that I remember where when you're taking off for a mission, you wind up that -- you get in line with all these other B-24s. You come around to the beginning of the runway there. And there's a -- there's a guy there in a -- in a shack that gives you the signal, gives a signal to the pilot to go. Well, as soon as the plane in front of you heads down, you get in that position. And what he does, he sets the brakes and he starts revving up. And he gets those engines going like mad, you know. And the whole plane is -- is shaking, you know, because he wants to go, and he's holding. And then that guy gives the -- give the signal. Well, if you fly jets now, it's not like that, you know. When it gets to -- the jets get to the end of the runway, they power up, and, man, you go. Well, this -- this thing is loaded with gas, loaded with bombs. And so even with all the power, you just start moving slowly, you know. And then you start running down that runway. And they use up the whole runway, you know, and just about take off, you know, from it. But so it's different -- well, he released the brakes. He starts heading down. And I'm not sure what the problem was, but all of a sudden, we could hear the brakes going on, you know. And he was braking, got -- and got down finally and turned off the runway. And something was wrong. Oil pressures or something wasn't just right. So then he comes around to the -- taxis to our island, and there's a -- there's a truck there. And so you take your gear and you hop out, and you get in the truck and they take you to another plane. I'm not sure of everybody else, but you get very superstitious flying. You always do the same things at the same way, the same time. And so all of a sudden, you say, "Well, wait a minute. I was supposed to go up in that other plane. You know, that's our plane." All of a sudden they want to put us on another plane, you know. And so it -- and both times that I can recall, we got into the plane, started the engines up and working, and something was wrong and we didn't have to go with that plane. We were canceled out of the mission. And the second one I remember was -- all these planes had camouflage, you know, the gray and the -- and all of a sudden, they stopped having camouflage planes. They came out all aluminum, you know, just shiny aluminum. And we got one on -- in our group. And the second one I remember is we took off -- we headed down, slammed on the brakes again, and came around. They got us, took us over, and here they're taking us to this aluminum plane. And we sure thought -- we thought, oh, this is the end for us. Here we are. We're flying along. We'd be flying along with all this group and this one aluminum plane, you know. And we said no, that's not good at all. And that one, something was wrong with that one at that time. So we didn't go at that time.
Did you have any good luck charms when you did go up on the regular missions?
No. Our pilot wore a scarf all the time. Never washed it all the while we were there. But he always had this silk -- silk white scarf that he wore. But I really didn't have any -- any -- any tokens or anything. But you did things. When you got in the plane, you always got in the plane the same way. You always rearranged things where you were -- I always took -- we had flak jackets, but I always took part of mine, put it on the floor, and put my parachute on top of it so that if you ever got any flak that it wasn't going to hit the parachute because if I needed that parachute, I figured that something was going to happen. But that -- that was all right. The only other time that -- that I can remember something is that -- it was over Germany. We were on a mission. And we were -- we were coming -- fact is it was the one that -- we always told the navigator if we saw something unusual. And it wound up that the -- the navigator -- we were flying in the group. And I looked out, and about three o'clock, between two and three o'clock, saw a lot of flak. Just a -- just a black cloud. And he -- I called him up and I said, "Between two and three o'clock, there's a lot of flak that I see out there." And he says, "Oh, yeah." He says, "That's our target. That's over our target." And just about that time, we turned and headed -- headed for it. And it was on that mission that we were -- opened the bomb bays. And if you -- unless you were a lead plane -- the bombardiers all released the bombs according to the lead plane. And so we -- we were flying. Bomb bay doors opened. And all of a sudden we had -- I could see from the other planes from the waist that their bombs were going down. And all of a sudden the bombardier called to the pilot. He says, "Our bombs didn't release." And the pilot says, "What?" He says, "No, they didn't release." So the pilot called back. "Stenzel, get out there and release those bombs," because you had to manual -- with a screwdriver, you could release the bombs. So I grabbed the air tank and went out in the bomb bay. And the bomb bay doors are open. So there's a catwalk between. And so I got onto the catwalk, and of course I couldn't talk because I couldn't carry -- the mike and that didn't work out there. So I had my screwdriver. So I start releasing the bombs one at a time there. And I'm looking down, and here's this beautiful countryside, German countryside. And I'm releasing these bombs. And I'm wondering what's some farmer going to think? Here -- here's this out in this farmer country, and here we are bombing -- bombing his crops, you know. And so I released them all and went back into the -- to my position. And it -- called him up, and I says, "They're all -- they're all gone." And so they closed the bomb bay doors then. But it was one mission that certainly we didn't help -- help the war effort at all. So but other than that, we had times when we -- we were attacked by fighters, and you'd fire at them. I don't know how anybody could ever determine if you particularly hit a plane because when you stop and think you've got -- in this group you've got 12 planes. And if -- if the planes are coming in at a certain direction, you could have the top turret; you could have the -- this waist; you could have the bottom turret. And until the -- till they got far enough around, you'd have the tail turret. But of 12 planes. So if you had three gunner -- three guns -- and, of course, the top turret had two -- two .50 calibers, and the waist had one. So you could have three -- three guys firing from your plane, plus times 12. You know, so you could never -- never really be sure of -- but you -- you fired, you know. And it was the only release -- relief that you had, you know, to fight it. The ones that we really didn't like was there was a Junkers plane. It was a two-engine plane. But they had an 88 cannon in the nose. And what they would do is they would sit back, and what they do is lob -- lob these in at you. There's no point in firing at them because your machine gun bullets wouldn't -- wouldn't go that far. So you'd wind up waiting, you know. And all you could do was wait. It was almost like the flak. Flak was the worst thing that I could see, you know, because you couldn't go against that either. You know, it would come up. There was -- the one that I really remember is you'd have three, three, three, and three. We were over in this group right here, and there was one plane here. It must have got a direct hit from the flak because all of a sudden, it just exploded. And we hadn't released our bombs yet. It just blew up, you know, and lost the whole crew, the whole plane and everything else, you know. And so you couldn't -- you couldn't fight it, you know. You just had to take it, you know. And that's the thing that really, really got us was the flak. And that was as far as we were concerned more dangerous than the -- than the other -- than the other ones, than the fighter planes. We always had a lot of air cover up to a point, and then they -- they couldn't -- couldn't go any further. The P-51s, they were able to have some air -- some tanks that they could release that would give them a little longer distance. But it was -- oh, it was just several years ago that I -- there's an organization that -- that's the Second Air Wing, which is all the B-24 groups. And it wound up that I had heard about it through -- through our tail gunner. The tail gunner and I sort of kept together. He's from Missouri. And he would -- he would contact a couple of the other guys. There were some that we never -- never heard from once we got back. But he got my name to this group, and they have a quarterly group thing. And there -- there was a raid. Kassel was the name of it. And -- and I -- I couldn't figure out -- I had never heard about this before, this raid. Well, we finished our missions in August of '43, the thirty -- the 33 missions that -- that I flew. You were supposed to fly 35 at the time. And it wound up that on D-Day, we flew the first -- first mission, which was early. And, actually, we flew over -- over where the landing was at -- at 10,000 feet. When they were told we were going out at 10,000 feet, I thought wow, we're going to look awfully big. But it was really a milk run for us. But it was just an amazing thing to see, all these ships down there that you could see very well. But you saw this stream of planes. And then in France, there was a -- an orange like smokescreen that in all our -- all our -- all we were told was you fly in and drop your bombs behind that smokescreen -- not anyplace else -- behind the smokescreen. And you saw this -- all these planes flying in, turning around, and coming out. Well, when -- and we landed, and they were rushing to put more bombs in. And all of a sudden, they took me and the tail gunner off. Out of all the -- all the planes, they were pulling two gun -- two gunners out. I'm not sure why -- why it was, but they did. So we wound up with two less missions than the rest of the crew. And -- and speaking of superstition, all of a sudden we were -- we were concerned that we had two more missions then and we were going to put on -- be put on another crew. And that was not good, you know. Well, as it turned out, on our -- on our thirty -- on their 35th mission, our 33rd, it wound up that we were coming back. We got across the Channel. And when I think of it now -- and it was probably a crazy thing to do, but the pilot asked permission to leave the group. And he was given permission. He says, "We've got thirty -- 35 items." He says, "Permission to leave the group." And so the group commander, "Permission granted." The next thing I knew, we're heading down, and we hedge-hopped all the way back to the base, you know. And here we are, you know, hedge-hopping right on -- over -- right over trees and everything else, you know, all the way back to the base. This pilot was a great pilot. And he was -- he was really good. But when I think about it now, something could have happened, you know, and all of a sudden hit a tree or something and there we'd be gone, you know. And that -- and then he called back and -- to the tail gunner and myself. And he says, "By the way, fellows, I found out this morning when we were being briefed that they -- that you are flying your last mission. You don't have to do the other two," which -- which made us real happy, you know, so that -- that we got out of it at that point, you know, flying there. And then that was -- that was the end of -- end that we had when we -- when we landed. But it -- it was -- it was something, you know. I can't describe it, you know, as -- as what it meant to -- to go over there, you know, and -- and fly that. I was lucky, you know. I had a -- a good friend that was -- that was in B-17s, and he got shot down and was in a German prisoner camp for the rest of the war. So I felt I was -- I was very lucky to -- to really get out of it all right with nothing -- nothing ever happening to me. We wound up that -- that the tail gunner and I took a week's leave, and we went up to Scotland after we were done. As I mentioned, our last mission was in August. Well, I heard about this Kassel -- Kassel thing. And I had to -- I had to really go back and check out. I had saved these bomb tags, and I put the date on and the mission and where it was and the number of hours. And I -- and I got a book that mentioned about this Kassel raid. And the 445th -- our group -- and the 702, the losses were tremendous on this raid. And from what I see, what happened -- and this was in September of forty --
'4 probably.
Yeah, just a month after we had finished. And it really -- I forget the numbers now, but it was -- they were -- they lost -- out of -- out of the -- out of the 12 planes -- well, the 445th, out of the -- and I think it was the -- 12, 24, 48 -- 48 planes that there were only a few planes came back. Others were shot down. Others are lost -- lost completely. But what had happened, evidently, was that somehow the lead navigator made a mistake, and they made their turn. And so that they found out that -- that they weren't at the original target; they were in -- so they were coming up to this Kassel. And they were -- I think it's K-A-S-S-E-L, something like that. They were coming up on that. And so they decided to drop their bombs there. Unfortunately, there were an enemy plane base that was near there, and all of a sudden they were activated because here were these bombers coming. And our planes, of course, were over at this other -- where they were supposed to be, you know. And it just -- just tore them all apart. But I saw this thing. I couldn't figure it out. Well, when I looked up my -- the last raid, that was in August. So it was right after we finished up, fortunately, that it happened. But we came back from that week's leave in Scotland and went up to a base, and they deactivated us. Wound up at Liverpool and was put on a ship, the Aquitania, which is a -- was a sister ship of the Lusitania. Put on the ship, and half the ship was returning servicemen, and the other half was German prisoners that they were sending back to the States. And I got back to the States and got -- I got a leave at that time. And then they sent me down to Florida to rehabilitate me. And I took some tests and that. And, actually, I -- I signed up for Cadets, and they put me in navigation training. And I was concerned that if I didn't do something like that that they might ship me over to the South Pacific, you know. So in navigation training. And two weeks before the navigation training ended, the war ended. Japan surrendered. And they called me in and said, well, I had enough points to get out, or I could stay in, finish my navigation training, and become a second lieutenant and be signed up for two years. And so it was a hard decision to make. So I said, "I think I want to get out."
So your last mission must have been August of '44, right?
Yeah. Let me see. Yeah, that would be right. BEGIN FILE TWO Our first missions were in -- in March of -- March of '44. And then -- then in August would have been the -- the final missions.
Did your entire crew make the tour?
Yes.
Did they get all their missions in?
Mm-hmm, yeah.
And you said --
They got the 35, the rest of the -- except for the tail gunner and I. They got the 35 missions in, yeah. So but at -- there were -- there were days that you didn't fly. And there was one time I remember that the pilot came over to our -- to our barracks, and he said, "Hey," he says, "I need some flying time." He says, "I'm going to take one of the planes up. Do you want to go along?" So we went along with him. And that was -- that was another thing that I remember. We were just flying around England, you know, and all of a sudden a Spitfire showed up and -- next to us. And so all of a sudden the pilot says, "Oh, we'll have to take some maneuvers to make sure he doesn't get us." And so here we were maneuvering. This Spitfire was flying around on it, but it -- it was just one of those things to get out and -- there was -- you were -- we did -- we did get some weekends down in London, but the -- except for that, you just -- you just didn't get away from the base. The -- this ball turret -- ball turret guy, he was -- he had gotten a bicycle, and he went fishing all the time that he -- that he could. But most of the time you didn't -- you didn't do very much. You just waited because you never knew when you would be -- when you would be called. So but other than that, it was a quiet -- quiet time. I never -- I never saw him, but -- because he left just about the time we got there. But Jimmy Stewart was the commander of the -- of -- of that unit, and then he had been promoted to go up to wing headquarters just about the time that we -- we got there. So of course we always heard about him being there at that time. And in this magazine that comes out, they mention it all the time, that he was there as -- in that group, as a commander of that group.
So he was in the Eighth Air Force then?
Mm-hmm, yeah. So but other than that, it was a quiet -- quiet life for me.
So when you did go down to London, did you get along with the British people?
Oh, yeah.
Pretty nice?
Yeah. Yeah, they were. The British people were very nice, very well -- in the -- and it was a very, very small town, not -- I don't know how -- what the population was, Tibenham was, but it was very small. Norfolk was a -- was a bigger town, and so that -- but I was out at -- we went over to England about four, five years ago, two other couples. And we -- but I didn't get up into that area. But I guess the -- from what I understand, the field right now is used as a glider field. The tower is still there, but rest of -- the rest of the -- the rest of the group wasn't -- are not -- none of the buildings are there any longer. But it's a -- the train station was right there, so that's the main way you traveled when you were over there. But it was -- it was -- it was a quiet existence. We -- there was a fellow in our -- Englishman that wasn't too far from -- that didn't live too far from there. His wife took in laundry. And it would wind up that he'd come and pick up the laundry and then take it -- take it to his house, and his wife would do it and then bring it back again. Because the nights, it didn't get dark until like 11 o'clock at night there. And but at -- at eight o'clock, we had to draw the drapes for blackout. And so you were in the -- in the barracks, you know, eight, nine o'clock. And you'd walk outside, and it was still -- still light, because the latrines were -- were not in the barracks. But the one time, they -- he had one of these small English cars. And one time when he was there -- he'd sit and talk to us. And some of the guys went out and -- a bunch went out, and they actually picked up his car, carried it to the back of the barracks. And so he -- he said, "Good night, fellows, boys, and see you soon." And he went out. And all of a sudden the door slammed open, and he come running in. And he says, "Somebody stole me bloody motor!" And of course the guys in the back were laughing like mad, you know. They finally told him where -- where it was. But -- but it was -- you didn't get too many of those times that you could pull stunts. But otherwise pretty quiet. But the people were -- were very nice, very -- they knew what -- what was going on, and the guys were good. They didn't -- you know, they pulled a prank or two, something like that. But I know this ball gunner had made good friends with -- with people while he was fishing, you know. And in London, there was -- they were always very nice. We got up to -- we got even up to Scotland, the two of us. It was -- the people were just -- I guess they were so grateful at -- at what was going on, you know, what you were doing, that they were just friendly all the time. It was -- as far as that was concerned, it was a very good experience, you know, for me.
Did you go to USO shows or anything like that?
Only once that I can recall that we had one at our base, and Mickey Rooney was there. But -- but I didn't recall any other shows really being at -- at our base. But he -- he was there one time, put on a show for us. But other than that, I couldn't -- didn't remember seeing too many. Most of the time when you -- on the weekend or that when you were in London, the only thing that bothered us there was occasionally -- that's when they started to get into those V rockets, those unmanned ships, you know. And you had -- the sirens would go off, but you never went to a shelter or that. You'd hear them. Then, of course, the engine would cut out, and then they'd come down, you know. But nothing that was ever -- ever close to us where we were. We were in some small hotel or something like that. But other than that, it wasn't -- wasn't bad as far as -- the -- the main bombing had been done before that time. But it was almost like a -- a last effort, you know, from -- from the Germans to create some -- some havoc, you know, on it. But basically that was -- that's about it.
Now, it sounds like the tail gunner was pretty close. Was he your best buddy?
Yeah, yeah. The -- and they -- both of us -- I'm not sure what exactly happened to all the crew because he and I, we took that week's vacation, went up to Scotland, and came back down. They were gone. And we never did see them again. He was on the ship coming back on it. And it was one of the -- one of the first times that -- probably the last time that I -- you learn not to volunteer for anything. But we were -- we were in this ship, and the enlisted ate in the mess with our mess kits, you know. And all of a sudden I heard that they were looking for volunteers for the officers' mess. Well, you've got to have -- you know, there wasn't anything to do really on that ship. And you had bunks that were three high, you know. And so I -- "I'm going to volunteer." But both -- the tail gunner didn't volunteer for it. He said, "I'm not going to volunteer." Well, as it turned out, it turned out pretty good. I wound up washing dishes because the officers were served with plates, you know, at their meals. But what turned out pretty good was that what we could do is we could eat the officers' mess, which was much better than what we were getting in the enlisted -- in the enlisted men, you know. And so it wound up that it turned out pretty good. Gave me something to do, you know, at all. I was going nutty, you know, just -- just laying around. You know, wasn't -- wasn't really anything to do. So as it turned out, it turned out pretty good. But, of course, we came back. We wound up at Camp Atterbury. In fact, they put us on a train from New Jersey, from where we landed there, put us on a train. I woke up in the morning on the train, and they had -- usually had a steward on the -- on the train with -- that worked actually for the train. And so he came through, and I says, "Where are we?" He says, "We're in Ohio." I says, "In Ohio? Where?" He says, "Well, pretty soon we're going to be pulling into Cleveland. We're going to change engines." I says, "You're going to be in Cleveland? That's where I'm from." He said, "Oh, yeah." So we pulled into what was the East Side, the -- where all the trains -- where the round -- roundhouse was over there. And he says, "We're going to change." And I said, "Do we have any time?" He says, "We'll have a little time." I says, "I've got to get out." He said, "Well" -- he says -- he says, "Let me know. I'll let you know when we're stopping there." So we stopped at that roundhouse. And it must have been -- and I'm not even sure what -- must have been St. Clair. It was by Eddy Road over there. And he says -- he says, "A bar right over there." He says, "They've got to have a phone." He says, "Just cross these tracks and" -- I says, "You're not going to leave without me, are you?" And he says, "Oh, no." He says, "Just get over there and make your call." So I went over there and I called. And it was a Saturday morning. I called home. And so my dad answered. I said, "Dad, this is Don. I'm home." He says, "You're what?" He says -- yeah. I says, "I'm over on the East Side. I'm on a train. They're taking us someplace." I says, "But I'm back in the States." So then he put my mother on the phone. And of course they didn't even know that I was back in the States. They thought I was still over there flying planes, you know. So I -- I can -- now I can imagine what relief they had, you know. They knew I was back here; I was safe. You know, they didn't have to worry about me anymore. So it wound up that -- so we got back on the train, went to Atterbury, and then we got a 30-day pass. And then I called them from there, and of course I came home then. But just thinking of what relief it must have meant to them, you know, that, oh, he's -- he's not over there anymore. He's home, you know. He's not flying around. Because my -- all my grandparents were from Germany, and really you couldn't write anything of where you were going or that, but I knew my one grandfather was from Berlin. And we had gone over Berlin a couple of times, bombed Berlin. And so I'd write in my letter that "Oh, I was able to see where Grandpa lived," you know. And as far as I know, it got through, you know. But that's the only indication I ever gave of where -- where we were going. So they actually knew where -- where we had been there. But that's about it.
Any targets that you really dreaded going after?
Any of the -- any of the big ones that -- the airfields weren't too bad, but when we were hitting the manufacturing places or the -- or the marshaling yards for trains, they usually had those pretty well protected as far as flak was concerned. And so whenever we saw that, what it was that we were hitting, you know, any airfields that we were hitting or -- in France it wasn't -- it didn't seem to be too bad, but German -- Germany was -- they had those -- those places pretty well protected. They had a lot of -- a lot of gunnery there. And so we could see that. Or the longer missions, you know, that -- that we were getting into. It just gave you -- gave them more time to do something, you know, so that when we -- when we hit up -- up in the Poland area or the far -- far end of Germany, a longer mission, that was -- actually, in the waist, you stood up -- once you crossed the Channel, you got into position, and then you just stood. And you leaned on your gun and kept -- kept looking, you know. So until you came back and crossed -- crossed the Channel or started crossing the Channel, you just stood up there and -- and waited, you know. So when I was -- when I was discharged from the -- from the service -- I never had any problem with my feet. But we had these doctors looking at us, and I was standing there. And of course you've got nothing on. But I was standing there, noticed this doctor is looking at me. He looked, and he says, "Hold up your other -- your feet, one foot." I held it up. "Now the other one." He says, "You mean you let" -- "they let you in the service with those feet?" I was flat-footed. And I says, "Where were you?" [Laughter] I mean, I never thought of being -- and of course when I went in, I had no intention of -- I wanted to go in, you know. At that time, it was a -- you really felt that, hey, this is serious business. You've got to help out, you know. And there was no question of -- of trying to get out, you know. My dad was saying -- he says, "Well, you're going to college. I think you can get a deferment," you know. And I -- I really didn't want one, you know. I felt that, hey, those guys over there are really -- they've got to be taken care of, you know. And whatever part I can do you should do, you know. So even probably if somebody would have said, "Well, you know, you're flat-footed," well, I never had any problem with my feet, you know. So I can do anything, you know. So but it was that everybody had that idea at that time, you know, that you wanted to do the part that you had to do, you know. Get it over with, you know. And there was -- there was I don't think anything that -- that we weren't going to win, you know. It was just going to take some time, but we were going to win. You know, there was no question about it, you know. All we had to do was take care of that guy over there, you know. So --
When you think of that experience overseas, does one particularly vivid memory come to mind?
No, I can't -- I can't think of -- of anything really that stands out, that -- I was fortunate, and I was able to do the job. And it was -- I was glad that I was able to do it. I was glad that I was able to come back, you know. Like a lot of guys didn't. I was very fortunate. That's -- that's the way I feel about it is that I was able to be there, do something. And sometimes I think, well, I was fortunate, but I didn't feel that I -- I did an outstanding job of, you know -- when I see what some of the other guys did, you know, the guys that were -- I had a very good friend here that I worked with that was in the infantry, you know. And -- and listening to his stories, you know, they really had it rough, you know. And we didn't have it rough, you know. We -- sure there was tension and that, you know, of when you were standing there looking around, you know, and waiting, you know. But those guys really had it tough in the infantry, you know. And when I see that and what they had to go -- you know, we'd come back and we'd have a meal, you know, a decent meal, you know. So it -- it was different, you know. But I'm glad I was able to do something, you know.
You talked about writing back home. What kinds of letters and packages did you get from your folks?
I had an aunt that -- that was -- was really great. She -- she sent cookies and things, you know, that she was -- she was really, really -- well, of course my mother sent things too, you know. And my -- I had a cousin that was -- she was really -- I graduated from high school with her. And she was always writing letters, you know. And I'd always -- as I got a letter, I put it on the bottom of the pack, you know. And that's the letter -- and I'd keep going down through there, except -- except my parents. I always wrote them. But -- but from other people, you know. And I had a -- one of my best friends, he was -- he was -- he had something wrong with his heart, and -- though he's still living, you know. But he was deferred. So he worked out at the bomber plant out here, you know, the IX Center, worked out there for the whole war, you know. But he'd write -- write me all the time, you know, and what was going on, what he was doing. And I got to think, man, he must have a lonely life because everybody was gone, you know, and he was here. He was fine, you know. He was having a decent time. But he was -- he was working in the bomber plant. But so I'd write -- you know, I'd keep track, and I'd go right down that pile and keep putting them on the bottom and answering sort of how I got them, you know. But -- but all the -- the folks at home were really -- really supported me with letters, you know. And being -- really being in the Air Force, you know, we came home, or we -- we'd come back from a mission, and we might fly the next day, but we might not. So you might have one day or two days. So you had time. Those guys in the trenches, you know, they didn't have time to -- time to write back or -- or even -- whether they'd even find them to give them their letters, you know. We got our letters, you know. So -- so in that respect, got an awful lot of support from back home.
When you finally did see your folks, what was that reunion like?
Oh, it was really something because I -- Atterbury, I was able to call them. And then I was able to call them and tell them from the station that -- from Indianapolis how I was going to get home, you know, and just about what time they met me down at the -- at the terminal. You know, that's where all the trains came in at that time. And it was really something. See, I had a brother that -- but he had -- he was four years older than I. He had died when he was 12, so I was the only child. And I can't imagine what they -- they went through while I was over there, you know, at all, you know. You don't -- you don't think of that too much when you're young, you know, of what -- what your parents are going through. And it must have really been something. We got a little bit of that because our two boys were in the -- in the Navy. And the one was fortunate; he was never on a boat. He wound up that he got into -- he was over in Scotland, but he was tracking Russian submarines at the time, never got -- and he was over there all his -- his whole service. And but our other son was on a ship -- on a hospital ship. And that ran from Vietnam to -- to the Philippines, taking wounded back to the Philippines there gung ho. But he'd sent us a picture of the ship. Here's this big white ship with a big red cross on it. And we thought, oh, that's great. That's wonderful, you know. Well, then -- then he did a dumb thing, which he didn't know, of course. To him it was smart. His tour came up, and he wound up that he was -- they said -- he had a year left. They said, "Well, if you want to stay here for six more months, then you can get discharged." And he had good duty on that hospital ship. He said, "Absolutely." The next thing he found out, he was on a gunboat on the river. They put him on a gunboat on the river. And all of a sudden we got a letter from him that he's in Vietnam. Oh, boy. So I got sort of an idea of what my parents might have gone through, you know. And but he was fortunate. Six months later, he was discharged. He got out of it without getting hurt. But -- but from -- from that, just that little bit, we -- I could imagine what they went through that time I was -- I was over there, you know. So but -- yeah, they -- it was a -- it was a great reunion. And then, of course, then they had to get all the -- all the aunts and uncles together, you know, because all my cousins, male cousins, were gone. You know, they had -- they had gone into the service, and they weren't home yet. I was the first one to -- one to come back from the service. So but it was very nice. But I think that's it.
That covers it?
Yeah.
[Conclusion of interview]