Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with Edward Sawyer was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. Spelling errors are indicated with [sic]; however, recurring errors in spelling within a single document have been marked the first time and not subsequently.
This is an oral history of World War II veteran Edward C. Sawyer. Mr. Sawyer served in the U.S. Army Air Corps with the 485th Bomb Group. He served in the European theater and he was a prisoner of war. His highest rank was first lieutenant. I'm Tom Swope and this interview was recorded at Mr. Sawyer's retirement residence in Medina, Ohio, on February 13th, 2004. Ed was 81 at the time of this recording.
Where were you living in 1941?
We were living in Park Ridge, Illinois, and were born and raised in that area. Went to school at Maine Township High and went to two years of college at Rippen College prior to the war. And when the war came along, I enlisted in the Air Force.
Do you have specific memories of December 7th, 1941?
Yes. I know exactly where I was. We were having breakfast in my parent's home in a breakfast nook in the kitchen area and it came over the radio. And, of course, at that time it didn't have the amount of impact it would subsequently have as the war went on, but -- no, that's where I was when that happened.
How old were you?
At that -- I was -- I must have been 19 or --
But there was no desire to run out there and enlist the next day or anything? Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use
No. We really weren't aware of the impact that that Pearl Harbor incident would have on not only America but the world, you know. So it didn't take hold immediately.
So when did you enlist?
I went into the service August of '42, I think it was. I should have brought some records down.
You know, rough date, we don't need the exact date.
It's approximate. And I went through aviation cadet program and when I got out, we were assigned to an air group in Boise, Idaho, and we flew practice missions there. They had targets set out in the Black Hills of North Dakota, and if you could find them you were lucky, and if you hit them you were even luckier. But --
What kind of planes were you flying?
B-24s.
And what was your job?
Pilot.
You were a pilot?
Yes, sir. And we had formed the new group and the commanding officer was -- his name was Pop Arnold. He was General Hap Arnold's nephew. And as a result, I have to say we had the best equipped airplanes in the -- in the Air Force. His uncle took care of it. But from there we went to Lincoln, Nebraska, and trained some more. And then from there we flew to West Palm Beach, Florida, down to Trinidad, Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use across the ocean to Dakar in South Africa, and up the coast of Africa to Tunis in Tunisia. It's a huge air base there. It had been a German air base prior to the Americans and British taking it over. And we trained some more. And the field that we were going to fly our missions out of was in Italy and it was called Foggia, F-O-G-I-A. It was halfway between Bari and Naples in the middle of Italy. And it was kind of a rough field. We didn't have Quonset huts like they had in England for the flyboys and tents, mess kits, and there was no club or bar or saloon or anything. It was roughing it in those days, in the early days. And it was prior to the P-51 being introduced to the war. And we lost a lot of aircraft because of lack of fighter support. The B-17 is called the flying fortress was a complete misnomer. It was not a flying fortress at all. If you were alone in a B-17, they'd shoot you down like shooting fish in a barrel because you didn't have the firepower to withstand it. And the '51 came along and it had the long range necessary to escort. We flew from middle of Italy -- Italy was still occupied by Germans in the north -- and we flew across the Alps into southern Germany which is a long haul in a B-24.
Do you remember your first combat mission?
Sure. I said, "Those dumb assholes didn't tell me they Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use were going to be shooting back." {Laughs.} No, the first few missions flak catch you, you know, and then we weren't hit by fighters right -- the first couple of missions. But later on they -- they got us and we were shot down June 9th, three days after D-Day. And we were bombing a BMW aircraft plant in Munich. And that's why I don't drive a BMW. I drove Cadillacs for years. But anyway, we -- we did I not have fighter escort and they -- they had a trillion Messerschmitt. And a Messerschmitt had a cannon in the nose of it. It was a 20 mm cannon or 40 mm or 20 mm. Anyway, it was a cannon. And when it got the range for you that -- that took care of your airplane. It was finished. And three of our crew were killed during the fight there and the rest of us were able to bail out of the airplane and we landed. I landed in the middle of a town {laughs} and they were waiting for me.
What was the target that time? What town was that?
Munich.
Oh, Munich. Oh, right.
Munchen.
Where did you -- where did you end up bailing out? Was it Munich or somewhere?
Yeah. Well, before we got to Munich.
Oh, before you got to there.
Because they got shot down before -- we -- that was the Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use worst day our air group had during the whole war. We lost five aircraft, five fighters that one day. And -- what else can I tell you?
What was your air group?
45th Bomb Group.
45th Bomb Group. Squadron?
829.
And what mission was that that you were shot down? What number?
My 13th.
13th mission.
Statistically, they said that if you made 12 missions you were lucky. I made -- I didn't finish the 13th so statistically, they're right.
Any other memorable missions before that 13th mission?
Not really. I think the long periods of time it took to fly, you know, this wasn't the 747, it's the B-24 and it's only cruising at about 180 miles an hour, not going 500 miles an hour like a jet. And so these missions were long and tiresome. And there's not pressurized cabins, you know, and it was electric flying suit on if it worked. And if it --
How long were those missions?
Well, the ones up to southern Europe, southern Germany were, oh, God, 12 -- 12 hours. Sometimes, I didn't make it Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use back, run out of fuel. Some missions, I never did this, but some they flew deeper into Germany and then went on to Russia, landed in Russia, refueled, and then flew back.
Anything else you can remember from that time from those missions before you were shot down?
No. Except if anybody ever tells you they weren't scared, they're lying. {Laughs.} Everybody was scared.
Now, were there any targets that you really dreaded going after?
Well, yes, there was one target the Ploesti oil fields. That was in Yugoslavia across, quite a long ways. And it was Germans, of course, occupied it and producing oil and fuel for their war machines. So it was a prime target and it was also heavily defended. So those types of things you didn't like. Scary.
So do you -- do you remember approximately when you were shot -- oh, you already told me.
Well, we were shot down, I think it was, the 9th of June.
So you bailed out in Munich -- over Munich?
Near Munich, yes. Actually just south of Munich. And as I said, three of our crew were killed and all of us were wounded. I was wounded pretty seriously and they took me to a German physician, private doctor. I can still see his house and the guards took me in there and they'd get him to Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use treat me and he spit on me. The doctor did and he called me Roosevelt's Luft gangster and terror (fleager), and all kinds of nasty things. And he wouldn't do anything.
To treat you?
So I had to wait quite some time. This camp I was first put into is not the long term one but temporary. There was a 101st Airborne medic and he took care of some of the stuff for me.
Were you interrogated in that camp?
Yep.
Describe that.
Yeah, it was interesting because you have to realize, you know, you're only a 19, 20 year-old kid. And you might think you're a hotshot aviator and all that stuff, but you're just a punk. And they got some German colonel interviewing you and a couple of guards, sitting -- standing beside you just in case you get nasty or something. And he had been a international broker, lived in the States for a while and spoke very good English, of course. And they knew all about us. They knew like our airfield, for instance, predominant wind was from the south, southwest, and the air -- the takeoff strip was in those directions, but it was downhill. It was you were going downhill. He knew that. And he knew a lot of things, and we didn't know how they did it until sometime later. But Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use they had people in this country who were watching all the Park Ridge news and gazettes and everything. They clip all this stuff out about Lieutenant Ed Sawyer goes oversees, blah, blah, blah. And that's how they did it, they -- spy machine. It was pretty good.
So that's how they knew your hometown and everything else? [Background noises and talking.]
Well, they knew a lot -- a lot more about us than we thought, we, as a second lieutenant, thought they should know. Yeah, it's a shock to your system to spend the next, I don't know, four or five weeks in solitary confinement, you know. And that's a thrilling experience. I know that I'm rambling on here. Is this --
No, no, no. We're actually --
Is this -- does it have any interest or not? You may destroy the tape when they get through.
{Laughs.} I doubt that. How long were you with that camp? Was that a Dulag Luft where you were interrogated?
The -- yes.
Was it -- there just one? Was there one in Frankfurt? Is that --
No. They were all over the place. They had -- I have a map showing. I think there might be -- might be one in there. It's -- there were whole bunches of them.
Of Dulag Lufts where they interrogated you? Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use
And Stalag Luft, this one's the III, was where you remember the motion picture with Steve McQueen with the --
Uh-huh.
-- The Great Escape.
The Great Escape, right.
That took place in that camp. But they had -- it was a grid. They had a -- like a center camp, then an outer camp on all sides.
Uh-huh.
And they put all the incorrigibles like Steve McQueen in the center camp, see, so if he was going to tunnel out, he had twice as far to go. But the -- the picture was -- I don't know that you can say it was completely accurate. There was a lot of motion picture stuff in it, but --
How long were you in that Dulag Luft before you were moved? Was -- were you all in those -- those two camps before they started marching you around Germany?
Yeah. We were in the -- first was sort of a basic introductory interrogating --
Uh-huh.
-- thing and then they moved you to a larger facility. And then we took the train which was a very interesting experience in the 40 and 8 boxcars. You don't know what they are but they're French. They're not very big. They took 40 men and 8 horses, I think is what -- where the 40 Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use and 8 came from. There's not any room for anybody to sit much less anything else, but the bad part was that at this time in the war the Americans and allies, anything that moved was a target. That included trains and they didn't know what the hell was on some of those trains. Some of them were us. And so we got shot up, some of the guys did. And it's a -- and there's no food, you know, and if you've got to go to the bathroom, why, tough luck. Not the best of circumstances. It wasn't what a nice kid from Park Ridge liked to do.
So that train, was that the train to Stalag Luft?
Yes. To that one, went to Sagon, yes.
When did you get to Stalag Luft III, late '44, fall '44?
Well, no, it took probably -- June 9th -- probably a month -- July something.
What can you tell me about life in that stalag?
Well, this was a permanent camp. This was one of the largest they had and it was made up almost entirely of Air Force people not only Americans but British and Polish. The Germans, they had a Russian general doing latrine duty. Of course, they hated each other, you know, terribly so. And the camp, itself, I can tell you this, reading the paper where these prominent business people are going to jail for nine years or whatever, believe me, that is no fun. At Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use least they'll eat better than we did. We -- I went from 198 pounds of pretty good muscle down to a shriveling, skinny nothing. 134 pounds I think it was. The food is bad, what -- what there was of it. We used to kid about it. We -- they had a soup, we called it green death. It had bugs in it. At first you took the bugs out but after awhile you'd say, "Hey, Tom, we've got meat tonight." That's true.
Anything else that you know was in that soup other than bugs? Why was it called green death?
Oh, it was the color of it was --
Uh-huh.
-- green. What they used was (?let's?) say it's artificial veggies. And the bread, they'd give you a loaf of bread for a week or whatever it was. And it was so hard you could drive a nail with it. And it was like that. And we used to grate it. Made -- out of tin cans we'd make a grater. And we made a coarse flour and we'd bake stuff with it. But it's a -- the camp, itself, the accommodations were pretty seedy and all the floors were elevated at least that far off the ground so you had in the winter, you know, the cold air coming up from the floor. All the heat was a potbellied stove you cook and heated the room with when they were -- I've forgotten how many guys there were in a room, Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use but there was three -- there were triple bunkers, bunks, probably 12, 15 guys in one room. We did have a map room which was interesting and we kept track of the advances from the west and the east. Fronts. The eastern front and the western front. And the British who had been there longer than anybody, they had been there since Dunkirk and five years some of them. They had arranged -- they had radios they'd get the news and when it was about to be dispersed, why, they -- some guy would come around and say, "Soup's on," and you'd meet over in the room and they would give you the message of the news, and you would convey it to your friends and so on. And we had a map we drew on and put on the wall and we could tell where the fronts were.
How did they keep that hidden?
Well, they didn't at that point. They knew but they -- they couldn't find it. They'd shake down the buildings every now and then to try and find any contraband or radios or anything. And I don't know how the British got it in there, but they did. And they were the leaders of escapes and things of that type. You couldn't try and escape unless you had approval from the commanding senior American or British officer in the camp. And you had to submit a plan, and if the plan was approved, they would help you. But if you tried it on your own, you'd get court-martialed after the war because you Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use jeopardized other lives including your own. In other words if your escape plan was too risky, they didn't want to do it.
Were there any escape attempts while you were there?
Uh-huh. Yes. One of them I can still see to this day. It was in the winter. This guy he had -- he -- it was snow on the ground and he has this -- made of white, like a suit, white suit so it would blend in with the snow. And he made his way to the first perimeter fence. And if you passed that you were subject to being shot right there. And somebody, they had these big search lights go on and all that. Somebody spotted him and they had these dogs, turned the dogs lose and they got him. But it was going on all the time. And I was never directly a part of it. But they were always digging here, {laughs} trying to get some -- it was partially to antagonize the Germans and keep them on their toes. Very little success, but one of the problems, you know, is if you're -- well, we were very close to the Polish borders they said, and if you did get out of the compound and you didn't speak full German, you were pretty well screwed to begin with. You know, first -- first time you open your mouth they know you're from Park Ridge. {Laughs.} But I don't know --
What was the town that that was in in Germany?
Sagan, S-A-G-A-N. Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use
Sagan, Germany, very close --
It's about --
-- to the Polish border?
It's about -- actually, it's about 90 miles southeast of Berlin.
What did I just do? While I look for my glasses, did you get any parcels?
No, I did not personally. Some parcels did get through but it was a tough job getting them. They -- they flew them into Switzerland and they had these huge white semis.
White?
Big red crosses on them. But the problem was getting people to drive them into Germany because what happened frequently was the Germans, troops would see them and they knew what was on them. It was food and clothing and things so they'd raid it and took what they wanted. I -- a lot of them got through, don't misunderstand me, but I never saw them. My folks put together some pretty nice ones. There were some, but it was an effort that was ongoing all the time. But those trucks were targets, too, and even though they're marked and all that, nothing's fair in war, you know. Anything goes. Especially if you've got the guns.
How long did it take your parents to get word that you were a prisoner of war?
Well, I have a scrapbook upstairs that my dad put Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use together and we revised not too long ago. And the original telegram was there, the actual telegram --
Uh-huh.
-- which was pretty hard on them, you know. All it says is, you know, "Your son, Lieutenant Edward C. Sawyer, is missing in action," and, "Period." No kiss my foot or anything. {Laughs.} And subsequently, they got letters from the governor and the senators and -- but it's a -- I wasn't there when they had this telegram, but I know it was a shock.
Did it take the government quite some time to get the official word that you were captured?
I think it did. It was probably three months or so. So you had an unknown quantity for quite some time. They don't know whether you're dead or alive or -- {pause.} That's one reason I don't talk about it too much.
Did they allow you to write anything at all?
Oh, yes. We had these little, very inexpensive fold, almost like very lightweight paper, and you can write messages and they would mail it and my folks got some. Yeah. I never got any mail but some of the guys did. Sounded like roulette. If it got through, fine, if it didn't, it didn't.
As far as what you were able to write back home, you were -- were you allowed to say much at all? Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use
Well, you can say whatever you like. They edit it, you know. If it didn't please them, they'd just put like that white stuff over it, you know. But I don't know.
Did you have any close buddies in that camp?
Yeah. We had some of our squad members there actually in the same building I was in, and we played a lot of bridge, cards. There really wasn't anything to do. I mean, they -- they didn't want to take us out to work things. They did for some of the enlisted men. Because it required manpower to secure the detail that was outdoors, you know, if they took 20 of us out to the pastures, it took half a dozen of their guys to ensure they didn't -- the 20 guys didn't knock off the six soldiers. Yeah, Germans. But we had a couple of big wheels in the camp. Colonel Gabreski was an American ace. He was shot down, and he's in our camp there. We also had a general, an American general, Vannerman, I think his name was. And he was flying a mission he didn't have to fly. It was just circumspect and the airplane got shot down. And he was captured, and he was given pretty good treatment. He didn't lose much weight. I noticed that, so. {Laughs.}
Anything else you do to pass the time? Did you try to entertain each other in any way?
Oh, yeah. We had -- they had an area in the compound which was sort of like a theater. It was a meeting room, Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use conference room the Germans would have some of the guys in there for meetings, and usually, they'd tell you what not to do and what to do and so on. And we had -- they got us -- some of the fellows got musical instruments, saxophone, (?two others?). Anyway they had a little band going and put on shows for the guys. But mostly, you walked around the perimeter. And they used to call it, if Charlie disappeared, he went around the bin. He started counting the barbs on the barbed wire and you wouldn't see him again. They'd take him out somewhere. I mean, really, they get mentally disturbed, I guess is the right way to say it, from the captivity.
Did that happen a lot?
No. I only knew of maybe two or three incidents of that type. I was a very keen golfer, and I'm not trying to brag, but I was a very good golfer and I -- I could have turned professional, but I didn't. So I made a golf club. You couldn't hit a ball with it, it'd fall apart, but it looked like a golf club. And everybody thought, well, I was gone around the bin, you know. {Laughs.} But anyway, mainly, we -- the guy that's with the 14th Armored Division, his group came in, and they -- they had done this in several other camps, too, on their sweep. But it was funny. I was in the -- well, it was sort of a hospital section of the camp because I had jaundice pretty Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use bad. I was about yellow color, you know, and pigment and there were three-tiered bunkers there, too, and the buildings, of course, are pretty flimsy, there's nothing to them. And when the Germans retreated, which they did when the Americans came in with overwhelming force -- we knew they were close by because our airplanes, our P-51s, would do victory rolls over the camp. Anyway, they had a war go on right there, shot up the camp. The guy on the third top bunk, he didn't want to stay there, he got on the bottom. You couldn't get low enough, {laughs} because bullets were going through the walls like confetti. Anyway, we went -- they flew us -- flew me and a few other guys to Marmelon, France, Paris, near Paris, which was chief headquarters, that was General Arnold -- General Eisenhower's headquarters area. And it was in a hospital. The building was at one time, was the equivalent of France's West Point. They trained military officers at this facility. And the 101st Airborne Division was stationed right outside of Marmelon. And now the war is tapering off and it's just there's these little pockets hidden there. And the 101st guys went berserk. They started shooting machine guns off and hand grenades, and they had to send in the military police to disarm them because they were threatening to damage everybody.
What were they shooting at, just shooting? Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use
Just celebration, you know, like --
And it was just too much?
Like the Islamics over there.
Right.
And they go berserk, you know. And they were so happy the war was over, and it's true they had -- they had to go in and disarm these guys because they were -- bullets were flying everywhere.
So you probably liberated, what April of '45?
It was end of April, first part of May, yeah.
Couple of weeks there --
Right.
-- before the war ended?
And then after I got out of the hospital there -- oh, I met a guy. He was -- I was still a second lieutenant because if I had flown all the missions I was supposed to fly, I'd probably made at least major. Because if you survive, then your replacements were all second lieutenants. Anyway, I met a guy from Park Ridge and he was in the Army Administrative. After the war, he was going to be part of the group that administrated the -- the disarming of Germany and settling the war and all that stuff. He was part -- part of that. He was a lawyer. And so he got me a jeep and I'd drive in to Paris, {laughs} had a ball for a few days. Anyway, -- Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use
What did you do in Paris?
Well, I didn't get involved with any babes because I don't think I was physically capable of doing anything. But I ate well and drank, you know, good wine. And subsequently, we went to Camp Lucky Strike which is on the LeHavre and Eisenhower came in. {Pause.} Sorry.
That's -- no, that's quite all right.
That's why I don't talk about it.
I understand.
Anyway, we all got passes and they were called RAMP, R-A-M-P, Recovered Allied Military Personnel.
Did you get to talk to Eisenhower at all when he came in?
I didn't, no. But he said, "You guys can go anywhere you want with that pass." And he says, "I'll back you up. No rape, no murder, no robberies. Get drunk if you want to. You'll be okay." {Pause.} I'm terrible about this. Anyway, we got to the ship. It was a Coast Guard ship, brand new. And one of the chief petty officers on the ship was Victor Mature, the actor. And he was really -- he was a real nice guy, real character. But here he's the chief petty officer and his Coast Guard captain -- and he and the captain are buddy, buddy. The captain is Bill, and "Hey, Bill," and "I want to get over here and do this and this." "Okay, (lieutenant), go ahead." He pretty much was second Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use in command. But we ate well on the ship coming back and then we went to Boston, took the train from Boston to Chicago area, which is -- Park Ridge is a suburb of Chicago. And there's a military base there called Fort Sheridan, which was the closest base to my home so that's why I went there. They sent me there. And so I got leave and went home.
What was your reunion with your family like when you finally saw them and came back?
Very emotional.
You weren't married at that time were you?
No. I'll never forget my mother. She was -- we went out for dinner and I wanted some more butter, you know, and the waiter said -- I'm in civilian clothes -- and he said, "Don't you know there's a war going on here?" My mother got up, "And I want to tell you" -- {emotional} poor guy off -- "How much butter do you want?" {Laughs.} She was going to lash him to the mast. But that's -- it's an experience. You know that life is full of eras, ages or periods or whatever you want to call them, and high school, grade school, college, wars, marriage, jobs, different types of jobs. And you get to this stage where I am now, which excepting for the POW experience is the least interesting. And, you know, we -- we didn't get married until I finished school. I had two Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use more years of college to do, and we've been married 55 years. That's a record. Oh, you've got guys around here they've been married longer than that, too.
When you think back to World War II, does any other vivid memory come to mind? No?
Well, it's a -- the military era was a -- is a series of stages, too, you know, and from -- my first night in the military camp was a shock. You know, I was used to my own bedroom and as I look around, there's a jillion guys standing around there. Make the bed? I never made the damn bed at home in my life. My mother always did it. But -- and it better be made right, you know, and all this sort of thing. The disciplinary procedure which is shocking to a young person initially. I never could have made a career out of it in the -- I had a lot of friends that did. I went to -- I stayed in the Reserve Air Force. Well, let's see, when I went in, it was in Army Air Corps. It wasn't the Air Force which is a separate branch now. And subsequently, they gave me a grade raise to first lieutenant. And I was in the United States Air Force Reserve at that time. And they met out at O'Hare field, which at that time was -- the biggest thing on the field was a Douglas aircraft which is no longer there. They built airplanes. They built C-54s, I guess they were or whatever. And I didn't like it. And I became somewhat inactive, and Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use I got a letter from some colonel or general somewhere and said, "Either get active or get out," and I said, "Goodbye. I'm out." And it's a good thing because some of my friends were called back into Korea, which was just a few years later. And then they stayed in because four years or so in the Second World War and then they put in another two or three years in the Korean War. It wasn't a bad deal if you could stand it. I had some -- some of our crew did -- my crew.
What's the survival rate of the Stalag Luft III? Did you lose a lot of guys in that camp to extermination --
No.
-- or whatever.
I don't believe so. No. We lost some. We lost a couple to shock, you know, by the guards. And we lost some enroute on this trek here.
Yeah. Tell me about that. When did that happen?
Well, let's see. It tells you on the first part of -- open the -- it's a -- it's a history. It gives you a brief history of the Stalag and then as the Russians came in, the Germans' objective was to get as many American flying officers as they could down into like Hitler's Berchtesgaden or whatever it was, his hostages to make a deal. Well, they never got that far because the Americans came in too fast and (like) the 14th Armored Division got to us before -- Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use
Before you were gotten you had to do the march?
Yeah. We all did. Yeah, that's --
Did you actually have to do that march?
Yes. {Coughs.}
Like here from Spremberg to Nuremberg maybe?
Nuremberg and -- the actual --
Others went on to Moosburg?
Right. Moosburg is where I was liberated.
Okay. So you weren't -- so you weren't liberated at Stalag III? You were -- whatever that camp is in Moosburg?
Right.
It was Stalag VII or something like that?
Yes.
So what was that march like?
That was tough, very tough. And I know we lost some people there. We lost some from our own (strapping), and finally, what we did is we put out markers. We took clothing and they made POWs, big ones, you know, 10 feet and, when the fighters, our fighters, were in the area, we put these mantles -- these down on the ground so that they were visible and they didn't attack after that.
And did you tell me you had some encounters with German civilians on that march?
Not really. It was -- it became a rather loosely organized march subsequently after its initial, and the Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use guards were getting to the point where they were more interested in surviving themselves than corralling us. So some of the guys would go off into the farmlands and farms and steal a chicken or a couple of eggs or something. But no, the Germans were getting -- they knew it was -- the end was near. And when they -- when those tanks, American tanks, came into camp, these guards were long gone. They -- they had disappeared. They took off. They put civilian clothes on. They didn't want to fool with them. And then I remember one -- one of our guys, one of the prisoners, went up to this American captain and he was a captain in the 14th Armored Division and he said, "Captain," he says, "where in the hell have you guys been?" He says, "I've been here over a year waiting for you." {Laughs.} And the captain didn't like that especially because he had to fight his way in there and all we had to do was bail out on an airplane to get there. But they did isolate some of the Germans who were bad. And I don't know what they probably imprisoned them for a while or something. But we -- we didn't -- although I know atrocities took place on both sides, just like Kerry says about Vietnam, you know, there were things going on. Americans are not immune to being nasty, too, so [track 1 of recording ends, tract 2 of recording begins] -- unfriendly. I mean, they were -- I mean, they didn't go around kicking Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use you or trying to hurt you or anything. Oh, if you got out of line, you'd be in serious trouble. But -- they all had dogs and rifles and Lugers and -- but that -- we -- they were enemies, of course, and you treated each other as enemies but with some degree of respect, I think, because most of the guards we had at that time, initially, they were from the Luftwaffe, the air force, the German air force, and then they turned it over to the Wehrmacht, the German infantry. And most of the guards at this time were veterans of the eastern front which was -- means that they were partially disabled or had handicaps of one form of another. Still capable of guard duty but not combat necessarily. And I don't know what else I could tell you other than a zillion things but --
Why anything else you can think of.
Well, it's -- I really can't. I'm sorry.
No. You've given me plenty. [Recording is stopped momentarily and is turned back on.] I'll record it in case the -- {laughs.}
We came back to the States and I arrived at Fort Sheridan in the Chicago area and we're in a bus going into the camp, fort, and there was a group of about 30 or 40 men in white -- red, white, and blue V-neck sweaters and tennis rackets. And I asked the driver of the bus, I said, "Who are those guys?" He says, "They're German prisoners." I Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use said, "You're kidding." They were as healthy looking as if they'd been in a training camp. And there comes a bus load of straggly old, ex-POWs from Germany. But they had a pretty good deal going. If you were captured and sent here, you were lucky. Unfortunately, at the time, though, I said, "Well, I wouldn't want to be going back to their country in its shape at this time. You know, it was pretty bad. Cities and towns were leveled. And the town that my wife's grandmother was from was -- the tallest structure in the whole town was the height of one of these tables, just flattened. And we'd go -- we visited her relatives with some degree of -- we lived in London for a few years after the war and we'd take a car across and drive around Europe. But I never met a German that was a -- was a favorite fan of Hitler's. And they're -- na, he was bad.
Exactly.
I never saw one.
All the Nazis left apparently.
That's right. Now, that was always strange. I couldn't believe it, but you'd see all of these old archaic clippings, you know, and "Heil Hitler," and boy, they're gung ho for him.
I see they all went away.
Yeah, they disappeared somewhere.
{Laughs.} Eclipse Educational version only -- not for commercial use
Even her relatives. Of course, I couldn't say anything. I wouldn't. I'd have been shot on the spot by my wife. Anyway, Tom, it's been nice meeting you.