Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. Spelling errors are indicated with [sic]; however, recurring errors in spelling within a single document have been marked the first time and not subsequently.
Okay, uh, today is uh, February 15, [2003], Saturday and it's about seven minutes after ten [in the morning.] This is the Minnetonka Senior Center in Minnetonka, Minnesota. Um, retired Major Adeline L. Levin is the person being interviewed today.
Levine (pronounced Leh-vun.)
Levine, thank you. Um, your current address is [street address deleted] Minnetonka, Minnesota. Um, she's attending the interview obviously today and myself, ah, Christopher Rhys Gaffer, a senior of ah, mass comm [communications] and political science at MSU [Minnesota State University] Mankato. Um, ah, may I call you Adeline?
[Nods.]
Where ah, where were you born?
In Minneapolis, Minnesota, on the kitchen table.
Well, (laughs) okay, what year was that?
1915.
Oh, wow.
I'm an old piece of baggage (laughs).
(Laughs.) Um what kind of ah, ah, work did you do before the war?
I was a teacher.
Okay, how old were you when you enlisted?
Um, 26 I think.
All right. What ah, what did your parents do?
Um, my dad was a merchant...
Okay.
He was retired by then um, and my mother was housewife.
Okay and...
And I had a brother and a sister. My sister was married by that time.
What ah, what were your parent names?
Sam and Dora.
And, and they lived in Miimeapolis?
They lived... and my dad came here I think in 1865, oh no, it was before that, I mean after that. Oh, I don't' mean [18]'65,1 was thinking of the Civil War (laughs) no about 18 um, 90 [1890] or something like that. He was fourteen years old when he came here.
Okay.
So he attended Harrison school in Minneapolis.
And your mother?
My mother didn't go to school 'cause she had, ah, they were not married at the time and she had to bring in some income for her parents because they had ten children.
Oh, my. Okay.
And, and um, my, they came over here...my mother and her oldest brother and um I think the father. And they came over here to set up a home for the- for the children and they came from either Lithuania or Latvia. But they couldn't spell either one of them. So they (chuckles) they had Germany on my birth certificate.
Oh, okay. Um, did your father ever, um, serve in, in the military at all?
No, no he. They were gonna um, ya know make him enter the Russian army at ten years old.
Oh my.
That's why my grandfather left. But my um, my uncle Ben, one of the boys, he was in World War One and he got gassed at Verdun. He never was quite the same after that.
You said you had a brother and a sister?
My brother, my brother was um, he was um he had a he had a hernia and so they so he had ROTC in high school and he was anxious to get in and they wouldn't take him because of the hernia. So, so then he had that fixed and then he tried to get in again and he had a hernia on the other side (laughs) so he didn't get in. But he had two boys by that time. So I don't think he'd ever gotten in. And his sis, his wife was a nurse, in don't think--she they had to use her right here and imi, so he worked for the state he was um, in social work.
And your sister?
He was he was also trained in law too, so he did their um. Anything that had to do with law... they used him.
Well, that's helpfiil. That's helpfiil.
Like liens and things of that sort that they had on houses...
Okay.
At the time.
And your sister, what did, what did your sister do?
My sister um, was married and um with her, with her money, with her 75 dollars, (laughs) my brother-in-law went into business, and so they did very well.
And, and, what, what's the birth order? Um are you?
Oh I um, I was a mistake. (Laughs)
You're the youngest?
(Laughs) Yeah, there is 8 and 10 years between my brother and sister and I.
Okay.
So I was a mistake.
Um and what ah, what ah branch of the service did you serve in?
Army.
All right. And um, your rank when you went in was...?
I was a second lieutenant. I went to OCS [Officer Candidates School.]
Okay.
I never, you know, was an enlisted person. I should have been probably (laughs) but never was.
Okay and when did you start your service?
Umm, let's see- 1940 well, I came in through New York.
Okay.
Because I was completing my masters degree at Columbia. So somebody came into me. I was working my way though school. No money no nothing.
Where did you, where did you attend um, high school and college?
I went to North High School in MinneapoUs [Minnesota.]
Okay, and uh college?
I went to the university and I graduated in 1939.
University of Minnesota?
Mmm hmm.
All right and you'll - did you go on to graduate school?
The-1 then I went to Columbia University in New York but I taught at ah, Franklin and in Alexandria, Minnesota before I went to pick up my masters.
And the field that you went mto?
Right, and that was in physical education at the time.
Okay. Um, why did you go into the service?
Why'd I go in the service?
Urn hmm.
Well, I'll tell ya I was working at my job at Columbia [University] and somebody came in and said "Levin, you're just what they need." (Laughs). So, she said "Go to the armory" and where's it? "68* Street I think, in New York. They're interviewing and giving you a test." So I proceeded and I thought well, I was always curious and I was always ready for some adventure. So I went to the armory and um, and, they were giving examinations and um, examinations were about 20 pages long and seven pages were on celestial navigation and so I thought well, the only stars I had were when somebody hit me in the head with a basketball. Well I thought I wasn't gonna make this (laughs), but I'll take it anyway, ya know? So I guessed at all of them. I don't know what I did. And so the, I, ah, then they called out the names of those who flunked, so I thought I heard my name. I was so sure I heard my name I walked to the door. I then, I said to myself, I really didn't hear my name (laughs). So, I um, went over to a sergeant...I didn't know a sergeant from a major general at the time, and I said "I think I heard my name" and he said "Where were you sitting?" He said in front... I said in front. He said "We haven't got to those yet." So then he looked through the papers and said "So what's your name?" and I told him. And lo and behold I had passed it (laughs) and so, I was more surprised than he was.
Did you know of any of the reports that were in the newspapers or in the media of that day, of the creation of this auxiliary women's corps?
Oh, in the New York Times, they um, had it spread through that they wanted women. This was the first time that somebody wanted women for something (laughs). So there I was, and this gal who came in, she was a whiz in statistics, and she said "Levin, you're what they want." (laughs.)
Had you finished up your studies at Columbia, when you enlisted?
I was see, I had been there for six months before and this was the end of it so I was going to be through with it at that in June, so I was put on um, on the um, well what do we- not- let's see, I was put on reserve. They put me on immediately in June and then we of course we had to take a physical and all the rest of it and um before they allowed you to come in. And so then they sent me to OCS in Fort Des Moines, Iowa, from New York.
Okay, and you were about 25, twenty...
I was twenty-six... I was almost twenty-seven.
Okay, and what do you recall about your first days of service going through the training and that type of thing at Fort De Momes?
Well, um (laughs) hmm, we were fransported in two ton GMCs and usuially it was raining, we had no uniforms, no nothing and we were in Fort Des Moines and ma, of course in June and July it wasn't bad- but we were ninety-day wonders and August, it start to get cold so they had to issue to us the World War One overcoats, so when I saluted, you couldn't see my arm (chuckles).
(Laughs.) A little bit too big for you?
But it was mighty nice to have. I didn't complain. And then about several months later they got the uniforms in and so then they outfitted us, all the WACs with all of that stuff from head to foot.
What did your family think about your of your going into service?
Well, I'll tell you my mother was an empty-nester by that time, I wasn't home, but I was never home anyway. So ya know if I wasn't at school I was at camp or I was at someplace else so, so I um...she was pretty use to me being gone.
Did you go through like a boot-camp like training where you fired guns... ?
Oh, yeah, we um, yeah we had to go through, sure I took an M-1 apart, we fired for accuracy, we-1 got Maggie's drawers more than once (laughs)
What's Maggie's drawers?
(Laughing) Ya miss the target.
Okay. Did all the women get trained to use the weapon or was that a voluntary?
No, the M-1 we took apart and put together and I think they did that because they thought well maybe that would be a good occupation for some of the women to do, of those guns that weren't being used. So we did that and um, we didn't get our assignments until well of course I don't know why um, I went to motor transport. Well I taught PE during the time of my OCS I taught it on the parade grounds to the on-coming trainees. And then I um, I didn't teach PE again, but I was in motor transport and that's what they assigned me to. And I had a motor transport company across from the Savory Hotel. And um, hmm, I remember those kids use to put the fire alarm on (chuckles).
The women you were with during that time period, were most of them college graduates as well?
Ah, mmm for the most part I think they were, yeah I think most of them were. Yeah I was in the fifth OCS class because I came in from New York see, instead of here [Minnesota], otherwise I probably I would have been in the third class from here see, but, so I had to drive a car back to New York because everything got kinda hectic there for awhile. My brother got married during that time.
What did you and the other women think about the training that you went through at Fort Des Momes that mitial boot camp stuff?
Pardon?
What did you think of the training you went through at Fort Des Moines? That initial boot camp stuff... ?
Well, when I compare it now with what the Marines went through, we think we had it easy- but we went to classes all day long and we did drills and marching and then um, they had me doing drills, too, I was drilling a company at the coliseum. And uh, we had three companies on the side of the coliseum and we have to keep (laughs) out of each others away and we also had drill practice on the parade grounds and we had one case (laughs) a woman said um, ahh, with marching us and all of a sudden she got xmi- she forgot what she was doing and we were marching towards the swimming pool (laughs) and then at the last minute she "Guide right and hold up the tree." (Laughs).
Some of the previous experiences you had before you went into the service, how did that help you then as you were going through boot camp and all those other things?
Oh mmm well, I had always been an athletics...
Okay. (Rhys gets up to shut the door to the interview room and returns to his seat.) It's a little noisy out there.
There's what?
It's a little noisy out there, some people coming through.
(Continuing) So, because I'd always been in athletics and I'd been m camping and been in girl scouts and um, I was always active and I won letters in North High School and I won letters at the university, so it just prepared me for the whole thing as far as the endurance was concerned. But as far as being assigned to motor transport, I drove a car when I was twelve. (Laughs) They didn't need licenses then, see. I told you I was an old piece of baggage (laughs). So I um, I could drive almost anything, I drove a tank and I could drive I drove a ten-ton truck with air brakes on the um, (laughs) oh, the- there was a course they'd had to train the men on how to drive the big stuff. So sergeant took me over that and he wasn't supposed to.
So driving a tank wasn't normally in your scope of duties?
No. They vim, they had- Why they had us drive a tank I don't know, but they forgot to tell me how to stop it. When they, see, we all had to try to get into these things- all the vehicles we were gonna use- so we got in and they said "Well, you could drive it." Well I'd try everything, so I stepped on the accelerator and I was going along fine and then all of a sudden I realized I couldn't stop the thing. So I was- so I come up close to some of the men and ask them how to stop- and they run (laughs) every time I came close to them, it was the funniest thing (laughs). Then finally I realized that I was stepping on the accelerator so I stopped that and I grabbed hold of the thing that turned the tank right, left and forward, and I pulled back and that stopped it, and I finally got out. But I had to figure it out for myself (laughs).
What do you remember about your instructors at the training camp and the...?
They were all men- and they were all men in the OCS too. We didn't have any women trained.
Did you wind up in a position where eventually you supervised any men or did you just supervise women?
No, I would up running the motor pool for [Fort] Oglethorpe, Georgia. And um, I had ah, 25 WAG drivers and I had I think about 20 more black men driving and I had charge of those and we had first, second and third echelon maintenance on each of the vehicles we had and I had about 225 vehicles, and we had to see to it that they were all maintained and had their regular oil change and what have you, and I- you know I learned to rnn, get an engine started when it wasn't started, and learned something about manufacturing tires and oh, and they sent me to Holabird, which was the um, motor transport school at the time.
Holabird how do you spell that?
H-o-l-a-b-i-r-d, Maryland. It's not a, it's not a motor transport anymore; I think it's some intelligence school. And van, when we got there we saw acres and acres of vehicles that were destined for um, England, and the ah, submarines had come into the bay and they had blown up the ships. So they had pvilled all of these vehicles out and they were destined for Britain. Of course I don't know if tiiey made them useable or not. But there were acres and acres of them and so then we had dummy ships in the bay. And so one day we were going out to inspect the dummy ships and because the submarines had come into Baltimore- the German submarines. So we um, we got ah, I don't know why I was driving-1 think it was called an LSD at the time, but it was "landing ship dock." But it was small- it was the small one [the LSD model Adeline was driving], and we had to see that um, the petcock was closed otherwise we'd swamp the ship (laughs). So I fixed the petcock and all of a sudden we stopped traffic in either direction! They'd never seen a boat, a motor, a car go into the water, you see, and that's what it was. It looked like a car... was it a car? So everybody stopped along that highway- we stopped traffic. So we went into the water of course and we went to each of the ships on purpose so in case anyone was spying, you know, we would pretend we were inspecting and um-
Well, what were you taught about, you know um, security- and like national security and you know, be careful, protect yourself, watch what you say- I don't know what was that like? What were you taught...?
As far as security, you know um, there was ah, I don't know. I always had a top secret clearance. And um, I um, as far as security you know, keep yovir mouth shut, if you knew something about what was going on, so that was, that was ran through the whole group ya know, you didn't talk about those things. At Holabird we had German prisoners of war that worked in our um mess hall...and I remember one time they didn't get a glass of beer and they wanted a glass of beer so one of 'em hid under the PX (laughs).
Did you have other families, family members to Mends that also went into the service?
I had first five cousins, my mother's side of the family all went into the service. My um, my one of my uncles was yoxing enough- well he wasn't quite young enough- but he played football at Carlton [College in Northfield, MN] told the commissioner he wanted to go and so they sent him to... he was in South Africa with a quartermasters corps, but we had two of them in the Navy: my cousin Allen was a bombardier/navigator, George was an architect and he was in the islands. And the gooney birds was his thing. He drew them in the [unintelligible word] in the islands in the Philippines. And Sherman was in the Navy, but I don't know what he did exactly. And Marvin was also in the Navy ah, but he was an enlisted man... Sherman was an officer and so was George.
Did any of your friends from Columbia join you in enlisting?
You mean the women?
The women, yes.
I think that woman statistical major did, but nobody else around me that I knew got in-1 don't know if they flunked the exam or what. (Laughs) I don't know. It was a wonder I passed it (laughs.) 43 Segment 3: Experiences
How many people were in your unit that you worked with on a day-to-day basis?
Well, you see it kept changing, because, because we kept changing. They would send us wherever they needed us.
Was that because the organization was expanding and they put you where they needed to... ?
Right, they expanded according to what people asked for. And ah, at first they were reluctant to ask for women, and then all of a sudden they began asking for more and more and more, because they found out that, ya know, when it came to administration (laughs) there's nothing like having women around. 'Specially doing typing and filing and thmgs of that sort. You remember the ah, Mia Childs? Well, she couldn't get into the WACs though, because she tried, but she was 6 feet 2. The cutoff date was six feet.
They had a height restriction?
Yeah, I don't know why- they would put her in a cannon and shoot anyway.
I'm going to switch sides [of the tape].
You remind me of...
This is side B [of tape 1 ] of interview of 10/15/02 (not 02/15/03) with Adeline (Rhys pronounces it correctly: Leh-vun) Levin.
Levin.
Levin. Okay. You had talked about earlier bemg down in Georgia- so men and women worked together?
Where in Oglethorpe?
Yes in Oglethorpe or other places.
Oh yeah, yeah I had um, the worked with the enlisted women. So you see I had charge of the motor pool, but the commander had charge of the women working in the motor pool so I had really nothing to do with those women except to analyze what they were doing and give them a ratmg. And so that's what I did-1 rated them and that was that. We ah, we (laughs) we weren't always you know, things didn't just always go smoothly, you understand that. So um, but um, where did I, I think-1 don't know where I went from Oglethorpe. I think I went to California, I'm not sure. I was slated to go to Camp David and then I said "Well, did they need more people in the Catochin Mountains?" [the mountains surrounding Camp David]. And so I said I'll go to the California mountains this time. I mean you know, I could say that because they had openings all over.
How many different job assignments did you have over the course of your service during world war two?
Gee, I never counted 'em, but I had about six mihtary occupational specialties?
Oh, my.
I went from motor transport I went to um, (Adeline clears her throat) I had a chemical one, I went to the Red Ball [Redstone, not Red Ball] Arsenal for that personnel commxmications, I had a personnel affairs MOS [military occupational specialty], I had um, a 2120, which was admmistration, I had that, I was an X-O [executive officer], company commander a C-0 [chief officer] and an X-O and executive officer and then a company commander. Um, I taught special services, I taught the WACs who were going overseas how to swim. Lot of tiiem couldn't swim. As a matter of fact they had to pull somebody out (chuckles).
So you stayed stateside?
I was stateside all the way. I was a "Handy Andy."
How many women did you know that went overseas? I mean...
Oh, I think there were a lot of women in the first two classes that went overseas... mostly in the first two. And then later, I mean as far as the officers were concerned. I don't mean the enlisted women, the motor transport people went overseas and they, the kids I had in swimming went overseas. I imagine there were at least 300 people that I had done something with that went overseas.
Did you ever have an opportunity to apply to go overseas?
Well, um one of the reasons was my mother said don't go and she wasn't feeling well you see, so I had put that on the original data sheet and because of that, they never did send me overseas. I went to overseas afterward. And I've been to Australia, China, New Zealand, (laughs) the Philippines and where haven't I been?
Um, so you, were you aware, I believe it was sometime during 1943 when there was a lot of discussion, national discussion going on, to change the Women's' Army Corps from an auxiliary army status to actually being part of the military so they'd have protections afforded them?
Yes.
Can you tell me about that?
Yes, that happened in 1943, m September 1943. We had to raise our hand as to whether we wanted to be in the service or not, and then also, I mn, then they asked the people if wanted to be m the regular army, and I didn't raise my hand. I stayed in the reserves all the time.
Okay. Why did you stay with the reserve as opposed to the...
Well because 1,1 wasn't, you know, I wasn't gonna make it a career. And I had several chances to head a physical education and health. You see because at that time my major at Columbia was hi health. And I had a chance to head up a department. So I wasn't about to want to be in the regular army. So, I was in, in ah, I don't know. Army, United States- they had at one time, USAR, they didn't have a reserve, a real reserve until 1949. So then when they went and put me in a reserve, I think that's why they recalled me for the Korean deal.
Yeah, the Korean War...uh how were you called up for that? When did that happen?
hi '51 [1951], no '50 [1950]. I was at, at Stevens Point, Wisconsin at the college there.
Did you stay stateside for that service as well?
Ah, yeah, mm hmm. I was still a Handy Andy, ya know. They could put me wherever they wanted to put me.
Ah, where did you wind up, what capacity did you wdnd up serving in?
As company commander of the WAC detachment in the financial center in St. Louis, Missouri.
And how long did that service last?
Seventeen months. It wasn't yeah, I wasn't that? At the beginning, when I came m, but I was an X-0 and I was-I think during that time I went to personnel affairs school too, and I was in California at the quartermaster depot as well. So this is not in chronological order. So, at the depot I was considered the personnel affairs officer. But I was sent there, not for that, but we originally were supposed to replace the men. Well, I was sent to replace this guy, but they didn't replace him. I won't say, I won't put it on tape why. But they didn't replace him. So they wanted me to do something and so they made me go to personnel affairs school. That was another remote (laughs)...
What did you do with the time between World War Two then and the Korean War? What were you doing during that time period?
I was teaching, I was at Wisconsin State University at Stevens Point.
Teaching ah, ahh...
Physical education?
Okay.
I was teaching health there, too. I was doing both.
How did you feel about being recalled?
Well, I was kinda mad. (Small laugh). Principally because that was supposed to be my summer off with pay. And here I get recalled. So they told me to go see the commanding general of the Fifth Army. And I said "We've got a war to think about. He's not going to do anythmg for me." And so I didn't go, I just made the best of it. I was in then for seventeen months then.
Okay. What, urn...
But then I was attached and my reserve unit at Stevens Point, to an attack battalion, but I was the only one who knew how to drive the tank. (Laughs.) 24 Segment 4: Army Life
What was a typical day like if there was such a thing with your varied assigimients during World War Two, and what was a typical day during the Korean War with your service?
Mmm, well, well, I can only think of- well, a typical day I mean we had to get there, you know, about ah, about oh maybe get there, oh when'd we get there? At seven o'clock in the morning? And we might have reveille, and um, and then usually we had we had breakfast and we all went to, we always got um, unless there was something special, we always got to, um to our jobs by eight-thirty quarter to nine. And ah, and we were off then until 4:30. When we had um, ahh, not reveille but we lowered the flag. So, we did that too. And um and then in- between we'd have some trainings, ya know marching, that sort of thing. But not a lot, we didn't do a lot of that sort of thing, they had most of it in basic.
Did you live on base or off base either of those things... ?
Uh, I had a, I had a room on base because I had charge of the company and I also was an X-0. Well, if I was an X-0 the company commander said "Well, you take charge Levin." Ya know, so I had a room on the um, we lived at Goodfellow Avenue on what were had been the ah, bunkers for ammunition. And they had been ah, changed enough, but we could ah, we could have them for dormitories.
What was that like?
That was very good because we had men and women and this was a finance center, see? And they all got along together, and here's the men's bunker and here's the women's bunker and there was never any trouble.
That was during the Korean War?
They were all college people.
Was that during the Korean War? Or the ...
Yeah, Korean, mm hmm. They were all college people. And we just didn't have that much trouble. Oh, I had maybe one or, er one girl that had she um, she um, well, I'd better not say (laughs).
Did you receive any letters or citations during either one of your... ?
I don't know-1 got some ribbons but they were all, you know, citations for overwork (laughs). No, I um, I was learning, was I learning to fly then? No I started to learn to fly in New York.
When was that, what year was that?
Oh, that's when I was still taking my M.A. But ah, but I um, but when I got down to Des Moines, uh, on weekends we fly. But vim, umm, the last time we was up, we cracked up. (Laughs) And so, I broke the cross struts. It wasn't my fault, now I won't say it wasn't my fault. It was February and we don't know if there was ice or what, but he couldn't hear me and I had ah we had a tandem Piper Cub and um, my instructor couldn't hear me. And I was coming in for a landing and it was coming in fine, and the last thing I heard him say was "Give me the stick." So I gave him the stick, I let go and he pulled back and we went into a stall.(Laughs) So then a year later, I see this guy in the officers' club and he yells across the whole officers' [club] "There's the WAC that tried to kill me." (Laughs.)
Speaking of social life what did you do for socialization, how did you blow off steam during your off-duty hours... ?
Well we had an officers' club...
Right.
And the thing I missed most was that there weren't many places for officers to play tennis or anything like that- and they were all for enlisted people and of course, you couldn't fraternize...
Why was that?
(Sarcastically)Who knows? They wouldn't let you say hello. It was stupid. I didn't try to hold to that but, ya know, somebody might say something, somebody out, bunch of you know snitch babies. (Laughs).
Were women treated well, during your time in service? Did you experience any negative attitudes?
Oh yeah. I mean ah, the men resented the women being there. There was no doubt about that. And the typical case was ah, I could have taken over the motor pool, but they wouldn't like that - but ah, he did go- off the record? (Rhys stops the tape for as few moments).
Resuming here. What was the average age of the women you served with? Were you all about the same age? Was that [age] older than the men you typically served with?
No, I think we we're probably younger than the men, we seemed to be. There were- there were (Rhys' chair squeaked and startles Adelme, interrupting the conversation).
Chair's squeakin'.
We were ah, oh I forgot I think we're the women were about um, 20 [years of age], oh there were some about 19, they got in, but they got okay's from their parents. So usually the- and um, usually the women were a little younger I think. But they were better behaved I think. Except for a few, but we had a few cases. I remember we had court-martial after court-martial after we... what happened was we moved the finance center to Cleveland from St. Louis. And so the generals said "Gimme anyone you can 'cause we need to move a piece of paper or a file cabinet." So every person that just didn't make it, ya know, that might have been out on a Section Eight, was sent to us. So we were having a court-martial every single week.
What were people being court-martialed for?
Well, for a thing for dereliction of duty, for staying out all night, or ah there was all - this one women getting drunk all the time just she became an alcoholic, but she was smart, but she was an alcoholic, so... [Adeline pauses.]
How did you ah, did you stay in touch with your family and friends during yoxir times of service?
Well, I had a, I had a cousin, Amie, on the Red Ball Highway, who was with 15 Patton. But he was in, he was ah, he was running supplies for Patton's army. And he'd send me v-mail, at ahh, and I don't know how he found out where I was, because I didn't tell him, (laughs) because I just don't - so he used to send me v- mail and I'd send him one back, but I don't think he ever got it. And van, see the airport we had um, which was not too far from the depot in Oakland, California, use to do the um, coding for all the supplies that was sent over but I think he got it through that, but I don't know how he got it but he was ah, with Patton's army. That was another cousin. Here was my dad's- he was on my dad's side.
During the war, what did ah, did you notice any supply shortages or anything? I mean I'm curious too what the food was like ah in the service,
Mm I don't know, maybe it's because the food didn't make too much difference, but I know we had a lot of ham with raisin sauce. (Laughs)
And did you ever notice any supply shortages during the ah, during different times or?
Supply shor- no, not in the Army. No, but when they had to get rations, k-rations or something, we had a lot of tin cans sitting on the thing, we had to go along and pick up our tin cans and open them- that was our meal. So we did that for, I don't know, for about a month I guess. We had a lot of extra k-rations that we didn't ah, ya know, that they didn't use, and they didn't know how to get rid of them. So that's how they got rid of them- through the states. But ah, but overseas of course they had oh, everything was ya know, quite different, on Thanksgiving they tried to have turkey and stuff. But imi, and we, I think we had turkey on Thanksgiving. And Christmas we had a, I don't know- we had, we had-1 don't remember ever having beef, isn't that funny? It was chicken or turkey or the k-rations.
On the different bases you served on, were there auy services provided for women or ma, for families ... ?
Were there any what?
Were there any services provided for families or women um, um, they were all the women you served with, were they predominantly single, xmi or... ?
Oh, oh no, well at the time. I think um ya know, I don't think um, there were any married WACs. They might've got married after they were in, and they might have gotten married without our knowledge, but ah, but there weren't any married women in at the beginning...
Okay.
[continuing her sentence] that I know, and the only person we knew was the 16 head of the women's...[Mrs. Oveta Gulp] Hobby, the head of the women's army corps [WAAC]. And of course she was married. And um...
How many women lived on the bases did all of them who served, who served there live on the bases?
Oh, yeah, yeah, the enlisted had quarters and we had quarters. There usually not, not near us, ah like I lived on the base in Des Moines and my "kids" [the women Adeline supervised] lived at the Chamberlain Hotel. And there was an old, old, old hotel. So they use to have fun putting the fire alarm on at two o'clock in the morning or something. (Laughs).
What kind of wages or compensation did you receive when you were in the service?
Mm, ya know I, I really don't even remember.
Okay.
I don't know whether it was a hundred and a quarter a month or something like that. Something like that... (pauses.)
What did you do with the money that you earned?
What'd I do with it? Uh (laughs) I don't know, I bought U.S. bonds I know that.
Okay.
I- because I had, that's what helped me go through school. So, and- but then I didn't need it because we got four years of schooling by being in the service and I got it twice, see. And, and what, what makes me made was I wish I'd had that when I first went in [to go to college] because I would have been in medicine then. I think I would have um, I would have gone in that. Because it always fascinated me and I was pretty good at all of the information having to do with health and ah, medicine. So, my um, my ah, nephew's a doctor. And my um, my other nephew's a lawyer. I think I would have been a good gynecologist.
What um, what were the feelings of ah, you and the other people you served with regarding to the kinds of support you were able to give to the men who were sent overseas, the men and women sent overseas? I mean, here you were stateside and they were overseas-1 mean how important were your roles playing in the...? One of the things I see is that you were releasing a man for combat, and I also read where um, where women were needed in the same things, support services overseas... ?
Well, like um, in quartermaster, whenever you send anything overseas you need twenty-one copies of the shipping document, so who do you think made up the twenty one copies? Ya know? 'Cause all the enlisted people were working - and ahh, we had, I don't know we had- wherever we had- most everything I did was train ah, women to take a man's place, ya know? Or like in, like in swimming they had to know how to swim through oil and that sort of thing and um, there might be fire and some of- we had some WACs that lost their lives when they were crossing. And um, so but then of course [in Korea] the nurses did too because they were in the DMZ. But the DMZ became the combat zone so often that the um, that a lot of nurses lost their lives that way. If you want to really read a good book on the nurses in the service, read A Half-Acre of Hell. Segment 5: After Service
All right. What do you recall about the two times that the military service ended with World War Two and the Korean War? What- how did that come about how did you feel that...?
What?
Well, ah, when you were released from service, how did you find out when that was over and, and... ?
Oh yeah well, they usually, no I ahh, they had me at the 46* street maintenance depot in New York and I was doing time studies. (Laughs). Another MOS.
What does MOS stand for?
Military Occupational Specialty.
All right. And, and they just told you, you were done?
No I mean the ahh, we got orders ya know, the orders were there and the first orders I was actually after the general and I had charge of the depot that day and I read my own order (laughs) coming through the teleprompter. So ahh, so then I, ya know, immediately took steps and um, but I, but I think um, that's the one I ended with, I think I was in New York City, ya know that's probably right 46* street maintenance depot.
Okay. What ahh,
Oh, no. When was that? It was Fort Leonard Wood. I was at, no, that was Fort Leonard Wood, not the 46*. In the 46* maintenance depot when I was sent back from California um, I had charge of the depot one day one a hospital shop came in and I was supposed to disperse them. (Snorts and laughs). So, here it is on a Sunday and nobody's around, and I can't call somebody 'cause nobody's . around. So I just gave the order that we'll ah, nobody will leave the ship until Monday morning, so we had um, we had a whole bunch of um, well, they were taken care of, they were returnees and ya know those that were injured and stviff like that, so, it was well that they were well taken care of.
How many people were on that ship?
On that hospital ship about 300 that I remember... (Rhys changes the tape). End of Tape 1, Side B. 10 Tape 2,01
This is ah, tape 2, side A.
I bet you can't use half of it (referring to the tape).
Oh, I bet I can use all of it. All right, um, what ah, what did you do when you got done with service then, did you go back to Stevens Point did you go back to Minneapolis?
No, no, where did I go? Well, um, actually what happened was I think I immediately went back to um, NYU. And I started my doctorate.
Okay. And that was with the GI bill?
Mmm hmm.
All right. Um...
That was after Korea.
Okay. Did you make any close friendships in your time in the service that you still keep up with?
Oh, yeah, this one gal I, I been tracing... I been trying to find her. We corresponded for four years and all of a sudden I didn't get a Christmas card. I know she came from Vermont, and then she went to Lady Lake, Florida, and I've lost her and I've tried to find her once and I've got a- I've got to try to find her again through the locator file in D.C. I don't know if they can find her though because I don't think she participated afterwards. She ah, was rather strait-laced. And I don't think she participated in any of the ROA or TROA or any of the other WAC. There's a lot of WAC chapters in Florida.
Okay. What does ROA stand for?
Reserve Officers Association. But know it been changed to the Minnesota Officers Association, no er, ah that's was Retired Officers Association and now its Minnesota Officers Association, I don't think they've got retired or anything 19 on it. I think they did that to keep up the...
Membership.
Membership.
So you belong to a veterans...?
I belong to TROA and ROA and they're- and I belong to the American Legion at um, the one Portland Avenue [in Minneapolis, MN] and I belong to the, to the xim, oh, all right, I'm a life member of the Legion and belong to the, I said the TROA was like the ROA, only one had a St. Paul membership and I think I was in the St. Paul membership. Because we skied with somebody who was in that group (laughs.) We're in that group too, but I was a life member of that mmm, I think I'm a hfe member of ROA too. The Reserve Officers Association. 15 Segment 6: Later Years and Closure
How did your life change after the war?
I just went back into teaching. And where did I go? When I completed my MA [masters degree], (Rhys coughs) I went from-1 was in Alexandria and a teachers supervisor and I went from Alexandria to New York to complete the masters and that when I went into the service... so really I was on leave from Alexandria. But they never, they never would give me... back pay. I was supposed to get back pay... never got it.
How...
I didn't do much about it.
What was one of your most memorable experiences during the war?
Getting out! (Laughs.)
Yeah. (Adeline laughs, Rhys coughs.)
No I tell you I saw [the movie] No Time for Sergeants and I um. General Bradley was there and so was Ike [General Dwight D. Eisenhower]. They were both there that night. (Laughs) That's what, but I don't know, I think what really brought me home to the fact was that we really could have been devastated was, there was the ah, the sea of vehicles that had been um, standing there rusting that had been sunk in Chesapeake Bay. I didn't realize, never realized that they got this close to us.
Mmm. How were...?
And then when we got to Holabird [Maryland], we had- we did have um. 20 crisis stations and mine was in first aid and it was in the- they had a gym in Holabird and they gave us these trunks that were there from World War One. So, at first I wasn't gonna open them-1 thinking that's really nuts. I opened them. And there was a bottle of scotch (laughs). There was first-aid supplies, there was everything in there. They had, ya know, it was left over from World War One. Of course that was a practice drill, we never did see any um, enemy, except the ones in the mess hall [the German POWs]. And that was when World War Two.
How did being in the service affect your personal politics? Either back then maybe compared to now?
How did it affect what?
How did it affect your personal view of politics? Or the way the world is...?
Oh, no. I, ya know, I've always said this and I'll say it again, I want to get up to call the president and say "There is nothing creative about a bullet." And, and I this war [the one pending against Iraq in 2003], I just am against it. And I, it is- war is so stupid. It's so stupid.
Have you participated in any of the activities, anti-war activities going on right now?
No , no cause I'm really not in, I've really got arthritis quite bad and (laughs) I can walk, but only ah, not long distances.
Right. I was thinking some of the letter-writmg and things like that...
Pardon?
They have letter-writing campaigns and stuff and...
Well, I let my nephew do that he's in Boulder [Colorado] and he took part in rnn in a, um, in a street demonstration where they got the [city] council to write a letter to the [U.S.] President saying they're against war. So I let him do that. (Laughs) I'm not up to that stuff anymore.
How did you see your um, fellow service men and women, your family, your friends, impacted by World War Two and the Korean War?
No, I mean well, there was a shortage of gas, and there was shortage of some foods, but we got along, I mean we made due. And ah, it wasn't the first time we made due, we made due in the depression. It was nothing new, and during [Great] Depression we never had a car. As far as the car was concerned, my dad didn't drive, so um, I had the car, but um, I had it in the service, so...
How are those wars different than say Vietnam and the Gulf War [of 1991]?
Oh I, I think what you had here was ah, I sat in class and listened to the French tell us not to go to Vietnam. But he said "You Americans won't listen," and I think that's the reason they're not with us now. Because, because um, they told us what to expect in Vietnam. And we didn't listen, and so I tell you wars are, are crazy, there's a bunch of crazies out there anyway, so what do we do but multiply it? I ah, ya know, just- and all of this guys arguing- going back and forth it's ridiculous. I was so surprised at Powell [current U.S. Secretary of State, Colin Powell) because at the beginning he was not for going in and now, my golly he's right up there, he's going on in. I don't get it-1 don't get it. I don't get it, because I'm-1 want to see what they foimd...they found those things that send mustard gas (laughs) they probably were there since World War One.
Do you recommend to any young person going into the service at all? Or?
Well, I ah, know I would recommend people for going into the service, but, but I don't know that I ...I suppose we have to have ah, something that acts as a block, something that will say "well they're up to this poiat and we can't beat 'em," because you just have people all over the world that are, that are, well, that want war. That's all there's to it. I mean there, why did the Muslims... why did he do that [Saddam Hussein, current Iraqi leader]. What did he think we'd do sit back? I mean this whole... that's why these national organizations are good to have. But ah, but we've got to have better leadership, I think that's our trouble. We don't have better leadership, and better people who know how to compromise, and perhaps this next generation will have people that are compromisers, even though they might be- in service.... So what? Um, you can use 'em in a way that they were like the Peace Corps. There's no reason why they couldn't be used that way.
What are some of the lessons, and I'm thinking mainly out of World War Two I guess, that you think that the country learned or maybe the country didn't learn? The overall, you know, what did it, what did it mean? What were we supposed to understand from going through that war?
I... what do you do with it? What do you do with a dictator, see? I think probably that's the big thing they think he's [Saddam Hussein] another Hitler. Well in some ways he is, ya know, but I don't know that- that we should go alone. I think it should be a concerted effort on all nations to do away with dictatorship. 'Cause it's no good for anybody.
Okay.
And I-just think that all of that expense and all of that coxild be could be 22 focused on people's health and welfare. And look at all the homeless people we have. And we um, we try to take care of them by one day or one week or something. And we have that in the [American] Legion- and we try to take care of them. (Laughs.) But that's no way to do it.
How is- how is that feeling that you just described, how has that changed from the time that you enlisted, I mean through the years... I mean, did you always feel that way about?...
No, when I was yoxmger you know, like everybody else...we're better than all of them. We've got a better team than they have. Like "my dad's bigger than yours."
Mmm hmm.
I never gave it a thought. Not too much. But then as time went on and you see what comes back on hospital ships and, and the Navy hospital, I went to that too. Oh, what a waste - what a waste.
Is there anything that you have become aware of now or since you've gotten out of the service- that you're aware of now that you were then, something that you just didn't realize was going on, or... ?
Well, sure, well actually, it's getting older. And you see the difference between compromise and competition. And when you start looking at that, you realize... what is happening? Ya know, you see that and um, and it's just ah, it just seems so ridiculous to take a gim and shoot somebody. Ah- what are you gaining? What are you gaining? And the whole, you know, what [a] wonderful world this would be if we were helping each other instead of shooting each other?
How does, how have these experiences, service experiences of yours um, affected you as an educator?
Has it, well, I mean you know, the, as far as that is concerned the ah, ah, what are your objectives in education? I mean they're not to go out and shoot somebody. You know? And so you get sort of the Peace Corps idea. And it says sure, maybe if we had everybody going out to some country and doing something where they need it, however, only if these countries want it. You've got to want it before they can need it.
So, backtracking a little bit, after the war was over, the Korean war, what is it what is it that you went on to get...did you get married, where did you wind up...?
No I didn't get married, I decided to um, oh when did I write the book? I wrote a book in sex education. It was my- author was from Notre Dame. (Laughs) 23 My helper. She was a nxirse, and so I um, she and I did a book together. Naturally I did most of it and she signed her name. But um, the I- had done a lot of writing before that, but as far as the war was concerned, it was another experience. But I don't know that the discipline up to the fighting, probably was not bad for everyone. But it's the afterwards-the using that kind of training to devastate an area or a person...
And go back into reconstruction?
Yeah, which is so dumb. Now if we...if all of the things that we've done in Afghanistan and now we're gonna go in and rebuild it? With our tax money? Holy Hannah! I mean, ah, so what can we do? Well you keep on doing what you're doing. If I thought- you know, I always thought at the beginning that um, Bush was bluffing. He's just bluffing, he's just bluffing to see what the guy would do. And so keep up the bluff. As long as he hasn't done anything, keep up the bluff and keep an eye on him instead of shooting. And try to round up all these crazies. There are a lot of crazies. Look at what they're doing with the woman's ah, vim, ah, you know the ah, the oh, the parent... the Planned Parenthood.
Planned Parenthood?
Yeah, my golly. I mean that and they want to revise that that ah statute? Ah, ah that's crazy. I you know what? I don't think we've got enough women ui the~ what do you call it?
Government?
We need a hell of a lot more women. I don't, you know, for every man that says "shoot 'em" I could find you three women that said "don't."
You said you went back to New York to get your doctorate?
Mm, hmm.
And then what happened... what did you do after that?
I went um, I ohh, (laughs) what did I do? Well it's in there someplace I (laughs, point to her resume)
In your resume... yes.
Where was I when I got my doctorate? (Pauses) Mmm, oh, I know. I was at River Falls.
Okay.
Yeah.
In Wisconsin?
Yeah, I had left River Falls.
Okay
So I would be looking for something where I could teach sex education stuff and that sort of stuff but what happened in between I think-1 became a supervisor in Milwaukee pubUc schools. So I was a supervisor for four years and then I decided I go back to teaching at the college level that's when I went to Mankato [Mankato, Minnesota's state university].
Okay. And you were in Mankato from [ 19] sixty... ?
For eighteen years.
'63 [1963]?
Yeah.
Okay.
'Til 1983. Yeah. And so that was that. I had been in a number of colleges I knew what they - and um, (laughs) the supervisor thing was a little too um, tame.
The ah, what did you do after you retired from teaching?
I've been writing. I've had um, a children's book published. I've um, got two in progress. I've got um, got another one I'm working on now. Um, but not a children's book. And um, and I've done about- oh, about twelve short stories and I've got them um, well, I'm not, I haven't-1 have one of the short stories published , but I'm not going to publish the others. I just put them in the um, in a booklet, you know and put them all together and put tales um, what did I what did I call it? Something about tales.
Do you ever get together? Have reunions, or get together with um, ah the veterans' organizations that you belong with and...?
Oh, yeah, yeah um, I was at the vim, see the women built a new [U.S. Army's Women's] museum in [Fort Lee] Virginia, and the General was very much in favor of that. So, oh, you got it all here. (Rhys shows Adeline printouts of web pages of the new museum that AL was referencing).
Yes, I got 'em [printouts] from the intemet.
Okay! So I was there last year.
Yes, I understand they're startmg to hold annual reunions now, so...
Yeah and so why, vim, I um, saw all the women generals. (Laughs.) I'm a 'general nuisance.' And I met, but very few people from my OCS class- they're not there. I have not seen one person from that fifth OCS class. Now I've seen somebody from the first. But not from the fifth [class]. I thought that was strange because we had 150 people in there.
Okay. When- when that change happened in ah, [19]'43 from being an auxiliary corps and then kinda of having a reserve corps and being like regular Army, were there a lot of women that you knew that just maybe walked away from being involved with things at all, or... ?
Now I can only tell you about the people who were at the... where was I? I think I was at, no I wasn't at Oglethorpe- where was I? Maybe I was in Oglethorpe. Um, where we raised our hand and um, at that time ah there were um, hmm, or if there were a hvmdred of us there at the time, but I think that um, out of the hundred I didn't see too many um, not raise their hand. So everybody must've raised their hand. I didn't raise my hand when they asked me if I wanted to go regular army, that's all. But other than that I was in the reserve.
Okay.
So I didn't see too many people walk away. There were some. Now we, there were some and vim, ah, there were some enlisted people because um because we you know, we didn't want anybody who was gay in the service. So we had ah, we had a give 'em a Section Eight. Or court-martial 'em, either way. A Section Eight, they could do it by just signing slip saying that they were what do you call it and we- you could just get 'em out. But um, if you had to run a whole court-martial, you'd have to run it according to ah, you know the dictates of the court. So, so ah, we did get a number of people out then. But I don't know how many there are still in. I don't know how many men are in.
How often at the um, veterans' how often to you go to a veterans' meeting, veterans, the organization that... ?
I'd hoped to be at one today.
So is a monthly or a weekly...
Yeah it's every month.
Yeah?