Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with J. Lawrence Davis was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. Spelling errors are indicated with [sic]; however, recurring errors in spelling within a single document have been marked the first time and not subsequently.
This is the oral history of World War II veteran J. Lawrence Davis. Mr. Davis served in the U.S. Army Air Corps with the 8th Air Force, 44th Bomb Group, 67th Squadron. He served in the European Theater and his highest rank was first lieutenant. Larry was a prisoner of war. I'm Tom Swope, and this interview was recorded at Mr. Davis' home in South Euclid, Ohio on June 10th, 2004. Larry was 80 at the time of this recording.
My service number/name is J-a-y, the initial L, Davis, D-a-v-i-s.
They wouldn't let you use J-period as your first name?
I don't understand what it was, but that's from -- that's what it was in the service, and that's -- and the V.A. that's what it is today.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Where were you living in 1941?
In 1941 I was living at 1653 Eddington Road, Cleveland Heights, Ohio, and had lived there for probably 12 years or so.
How old were you then?
I went into the service in -- I enlisted in 1942 in the Air Corps Reserve, went to -- stayed out one year and I worked at White Motor Company. Then I went into the service -- actually not the service. I went to school at Western Reserve University, and I was told at that time that I enlisted into the Air Corps that I would have my college education and then I would have to serve my time. However, I was called up in March of 1943.
Why did you choose the Air Corps?
I don't know. It just sounded good. I had tried to get into the Navy Special Forces, and I had too many fillings in my teeth. They wouldn't take me. That was something I had never heard of.
Did they give any reason why other than that?
They just said there would have to be something that may be electric ESDs or something like that, and it would cause a problem. I just liked the idea of getting into the Air Force and getting a college education. I was registered into the draft, but it didn't mean anything. I wouldn't have been called up.
Backtracking a bit, do you remember, have specific memories of December 7th, 1941?
Yes, I do. I was walking to a friend's house, it was about 12 noon, and I was walking on the street. It was Sunday afternoon. I would say it was about 12 noon, 1:00 when I heard about it, and it was a Sunday.
What was your reaction at the time when you heard that?
Well, we were -- we were living in a -- I graduated in 1941, June of '41, and I wasn't sure what I was going to do, and I got this job at White Motor Company working at night. I was working a night shift. And my friends, most of my friends were going to college. Some had enlisted. And I don't recall just what it was. It was a situation that we knew that there was a war going on and, you know, there was no television, it was radio, and you would hear the president, President Roosevelt would speak. And then we got into the situation, and I recall with Corregidor, Bataan, and things like that, I was 19, I guess I was 19 years old, and not realizing -- I do have a problem. I do have a problem. And we usually don't talk about it, but anyway, not realizing at that time that I would meet people that had been taken prisoner by the Japanese. As to war, one of my mentors in Barbed Wire Buckeyes is Arnold Green who was taken -- you know Arnold -- taken in September.
I interviewed him.
Yes, you have. He was -- he's been one of my mentors. And I've gone with him when he has spoken to high school classes. He was taken I think it was December 23, 1941. That was a long time. He was on Wake Island and never realizing that I would meet these people, and that's where the situation is right now.
So how soon after that did you sign up for the Army Air Corps? You said you weren't called until --
I was called up in March.
You were called in March of '43?
Yeah.
And you signed up, what, maybe a year before that?
Yeah, I was just looking through my records here. It was in November of '42 when I --
So you didn't get much schooling in before they called you.
No, I didn't. I was in classes, and I got the notice that I was going in, and I screwed up my exams there anyway. I had to take an exam to be admitted, and that was no problem. I passed that. But as I say, I was out of -- out of school for one year where most of my friends were going to college. A couple of them were working at jobs and, you know, we were building up our defenses in manufacturing and everything else, and I had -- I was a Depression type of kid, so where I had a chance to make some money, I made some money, and I ended up earning more money working at White Motors over a weekend than my father made as a grocery salesman. So that was one of those things.
Do you remember your first day in training?
My first day in training. Well, actually we were down at Ellington, I think it's Ellington Air Force Base in Texas, and we got in, and first day I had a cousin who was in the band down there. I was supposed to meet him. And all of a sudden there was a quarantine of meningitis. So we were all stuck in there for a while. This was just, what would you say, it was an area that -- Air Force Base, I'm trying to remember. It's not Ellington. I've got the papers here. We were there for two weeks, couldn't get out, and then all of a sudden went into training at Big Spring, Texas, as an Air Force cadet. I guess the Air Corps. I don't remember. No, I don't remember the first day.
Was it a tough adjustment to be thrown in there with guys from all over the country?
Not really. I mean, I was a young guy. I had really no problems. I did run into -- made a couple of friends, we went all the way through school and even into the formation of flight crews. I was a bombardier, trained as a bombardier. Did not do well on a Norden bombsight, but being left-handed and having played basketball using both hands, I was number one as I recall using the Sperry bombsight. It was using both hands dexterity-wise. And it was a training. I didn't -- I didn't find it difficult.
What's the difference between a Sperry and a Norden? Is that easy to describe?
Well, I could not. The Norden bombsight was the one that we used in combat. Sperry bombsight was you twist with both hands in setting it in. The Norden bombsight was probably a little more complicated as far as putting it in, information that you had, so that you could make your drops. And didn't really make that much difference as far as in combat because I was not a lead bombardier, only on one mission, and I would toggle the bombs out when the lead bombardier dropped the bombs. So I didn't find it that much different. I have books upstairs about the bombsights as one of the things that I have from the memories here in the States. And I had -- I had made a couple of friends, and we would go into town. We would probably have -- go to a restaurant and have a steak and potatoes and maybe a beer or something like that for like 75 cents, you know. It was a different time all together.
Was bombardier your first choice for crew position?
Actually, no. I wanted to be a pilot. And when we were interviewed I mentioned -- I had spoken to a few fellows, we were sitting around just talking about that tomorrow we would go in and we would be interviewed. And they said that pilot training they're washing them out as fast as they can. He said, If you want to do something, go in as bombardier. And I didn't think that I was qualified to be a navigator because I figured there was math involved and anything, that wasn't something. So I went to bombardier. I thought it would be, you know, it would be different. Like I say, today I think about it, I wish that I would have gone through training to be a pilot. And it's just one of those things. How do I know how I would have ended up, I don't know.
And the problem if you had gone through pilot training and washed out, would you have ended up --
I would have gone in there as a bombardier. That would have been the next choice, but they said that it was a time when they were building up, we were actually during that time we were building up our Air Corps, the Army Air Corps. It was not separate. It was part of the Army. And we were building it up for bombardier crews. And as I recall, we lost -- we were in Casper, Wyoming. I think we lost a number of crews in training that usually coming in to make a landing at night, things went wrong and planes crashed, and people don't realize how we lose sometimes innocents in training, forget the combat that we're in, in training that we go through. And I didn't find anything special about it. I graduated in September of '43 as a second lieutenant, and came home for a bit, and then went back and had an assignment.
Any other stories from training you remember?
I remember, the most important thing I think I remember, we trained 6:00 at night or 5:00 at night, and you would lie on your stomach in the plane. It was a bombardier, and then you would lie and take pictures on the floor of the plane, and you'd lie on your stomach, and the plane is going like this and like that and it wasn't unusual to become a little nauseated. It was in Texas. It was summer, you know, and it was pretty hot. You would fly at pretty low altitude, but that's the only thing, I had no problem really. Couple of times we had to stay in because when they came in and inspected our barracks, we weren't up to par, you know. Maybe one guy had done something wrong in making his bed, and everybody would have to stay in. But I would write home, and it was good. I had no problem. Made friends and, as I say, I made one special friend, and we were together for quite a while.
Was he a member of your crew?
No, he was not a member. He was another one. And then he went one way and I went another way. But this was -- communication, I lost all communication with everybody when I was in the prison camp, and I'm sorry about losing communication with the fellows that I knew, my own crew, and it was just something that I set behind and I didn't think about it until maybe about three or four years ago.
When was your crew assembled then?
We were in Casper, Wyoming, it probably was in October of '43, and I have pictures here of the crew. That I was going through all this stuff just getting it together for my own personal reasons. And our co-pilot was with us, but then he left and another co-pilot came in. My pilot, Keith Skyler (ph), was outstanding. And when we were prisoners in Germany, he was the one that got the information either by Morse code or by radio about the news broadcast, the things that he would go every day. And one book he was quoted, I happen when I go into different book stores, I look up, pick up, I picked up one over here about the B-24 by Ambrose.
Right. I think I have it. I haven't read it yet. It's over here. Yeah, I know which book you're talking about.
Stephen Ambrose, somebody mentioned Wild Blue Yonder.
I have it and going to read it.
B-24s.
Is that what you were flying, B-24s?
Yes, we were in B-24s. And in fact, I've been -- I've been trying to find where they were, there's one B-24 that's still flying, touring the country, and they were here in Cleveland I think two summers ago, maybe one summer ago, they were down at the lake, and I wanted Elaine to see how small that plane was compared to what we have today, and it was -- I didn't think it was a big plane. But there's only one flying, and we'll probably get a chance to see what they're like.
So when did you go overseas?
We flew November -- it was March -- it was probably February because I remember the first -- there was first we went to Florida, and then from Florida we went to South America in Natal, Brazil, I think that's where it was, and then we flew across to Africa and then up to England. And it was probably in February because while we were en route, the first raid on Berlin was performed. I think it was in February. It could have been -- because we were activated, and we started flying in March, and we were flying quite a bit. It was a great trip going over, it really was and, you know, you go at night and it's boring, and that was when I sat in the co-pilot seat and flew the plane a little bit, you know. It's a boring thing. But it was -- it was quite an experience. You know, I had never traveled to another country. I had never been to Brazil. Never been to Africa. And the Senegalese in Senegal, we were there. And then we went to Morocco, and we were in a hotel, all marble. It was a fabulous, fabulous hotel. We stayed there overnight one time, and went to -- had to go to the bathroom, and went to the bathroom, and all of a sudden a woman comes in, you know, I'm a 20-year-old kid and shared the bathroom. But it was beautiful with the mosaics. I didn't appreciate at the time, but I think about it, and I remember the architecture, what it was. And the Germans had been in this hotel, but they were gone. You know, Africa, we had been victorious there. And this was -- I would say this was '43, this was probably in February, something like that.
Of '44 probably?
'44, yeah. Early '44. And then we went up, we went to Wales, and then we flew over to Shipton is where we were.
That's where you were based?
Yeah, it was the 44th Bomb Group.
44th Bomb Group, what squadron?
We were in the 66th and then we were transferred, we were supposed to go on a recreational thing, and the day we were supposed to leave, the day before they transferred us to the 67th. So we never really had any time off.
That was the 8th Air Force, right?
8th Air Force, 44th Bomb Group, and as I remember we went -- our first mission, we were in a Quonset hut and there was another crew there, and we went out. When we come back from the mission, you had to go in and you were -- tell them what happened, you know, what happened on that mission. And we went back then into our barracks, and the four beds that were occupied by the other crew, they were empty, all their stuff was gone, and that was the first mission I was on. So that was really a blast. Then we started to fly.
Do you have any memories of what was going through your mind on that first mission?
No, not at all. I can't -- we flew -- we flew so many days in March or rather April, it was beginning in April, and we were just going up and I don't know, it was -- we went into town a couple of times. I had a bike. I rented a bike from one of the fellows there on the ground, and he probably rented that bike to maybe 20 different guys, you know. Didn't come back. And I can't -- I can't think of anything on the missions. One in particular, one in particular where we were flying in formation, and I'm being a bombardier, I was up in the front of the plane, and I could see in front of me, and it was a tremendous explosion, and the plane right in front of us was blown out of the sky. And that I remember because I got on the phone and I said Keith, did you see that? Did you see that? Just gone. And that's -- then other things that happened. You'd have to be careful, you fly in formation, and we were not trained -- we were trained on machine guns, but we weren't trained to -- if you're flying in a formation and all of a sudden there's a fighter plane, enemy fighter plane coming down, and you go to shoot at it, you're liable to hit your own plane. So you didn't -- you know, after the first or second mission you realize, you talked about it, and then you were very, very careful about hitting -- going in the formation. I don't know how many planes might have gone down from friendly fire, you know. These are things that happened. But I don't know, we were credited with ten missions before we went down, and we used two planes. The last one we came down -- second to last mission that we came down on, we had no brakes, and we went off the end of the runway, and we were all okay. And then we went up the -- I think we went up the next day again with another -- with another plane, and that one never got back either. So I can't -- I can't think of anything in particular. It wasn't -- it wasn't maybe all those things had happened didn't get to me until maybe 40, 50 years later.
What were the targets on some of those missions, those first ones?
Oh, my gosh. We went down on the 5th raid of Berlin, but we went to places like Stuttgart.
Mid summer, right?
I don't --
What were you mainly bombing, what kinds of targets?
I would think that they were parts, supply parts for the Air Force, bearings, different things like that. And we were -- they were huge with the formations that we had with the antiaircraft, they couldn't have missed getting planes down because there were so many. The day that we went down, I since have read about 60 planes went down on the 5th raid, and there's ten men in each one. We were one of the fortunate ones. All ten of us got out. The plane was shot up, and we were losing gas, and we thought we were over the Netherlands, but we weren't. We were over Germany, and there was -- I'm sure it was a P-47 that followed us all the way back until we bailed out. And I did find out later that it was reported that this plane that went down, the pilot counted ten parachutes, so they knew all of us. Like I say, going through here, the letter to my mother, the telegram to my mother, and the letter following, and they would try to get in touch with her as soon as they possibly could if they had any information. And then we bailed out. I came down in a ditch, sprained an ankle, and I wasn't too far from a forest. If I would have come down in a different situation -- I tell you, I saw on TV some of these guys, 80 years old, parachuting, I don't know how they did it. Their legs must have been all taped up and bandaged and everything. They just jumped the other day in Normandy. I don't know how they did it. Because I never forget, I mean we got out of an airplane where there was a lot of noise and all of a sudden it's quiet. It is quiet. And we never practiced parachuting, and we were pretty low, and I came down, and I hit the ground, and I landed part in a ditch and part out of a ditch. I was pretty close to a forest when we came down. Who knows if I would have gone in there. I thought we were in the Netherlands and that somebody would come to help us. And then these farmers come with a couple of big dogs. Alas caput (sic), alas caput. I didn't understand what it meant but figured the war is over, you're finished, alas caput. And that was the beginning of an experience.
So what happened next then? Did the farmers turn you over?
Yeah, they turned me over to the authorities, and we spent a night. There were a couple of us together. We spent a night in a police station I guess, and then I don't know how they transported us, then they transported us to it was an airfield, and because that was where we -- it was a fighter base, German fighter base, and we had not had any water or anything to eat or anything like that, and these guys gave us water which was pretty good because, you know, they were going up the next day, we weren't going back, you know. You're part of the German Air Force out of the Lufta and your plane gets hit, so you jump, and you're back in. You're back in, you know, in the starting line-up the next day. And then they took us to -- we went to Frankfurt, northern Frankfurt. There are two Frankfurts in Germany. This was in northern Frankfurt. Put us on a train and then we finally ended up in this camp, Stalag Luft III.
Frankfurt, was that where the interrogation was?
Well, I was only interrogated in the police station, interrogated that I can remember, it was nothing again after that that I can remember. I probably was interrogated again later on. I don't remember where or what the situation was. We went to this camp which was basically a brand new camp right next to the British camp which was the scene for The Big Escape (sic).
Right, The Great Escape.
And we were right next to it. In fact, the commander, Navy commander of our barracks was the first naval POW that was taken prisoner. I don't know where he was flying out of or what, but he had been there for quite a few years already. And then we were in this -- we were in this relatively new camp which wasn't, you know, for us the war was over. And that whole time I was there, I mean, still I was -- I celebrated my 21st birthday there, and I was in pretty good shape. I had been athletic all through school and everything, and that's when I started to smoke in the Air Force, and I smoked Chesterfields, and I have memories of what it did for me. It was good because you smoke, you don't get too hungry. And I smoked for many years. But this was a good camp, and it was an officers camp. We were able to establish libraries from the YMCA. They brought in books. We built an auditorium, and there were -- obviously there were college graduates or fellows that had been in the service and had learned because the technology was unbelievable of the things that they built. They were able to bribe the guards. It was an old guy and a young guy who came through, and they were definitely bribed. I don't know what they were -- what they were given, but in our Red Cross parcels I believe there were cigarettes, there was soap, things like that, which we couldn't use. So it did get us certain things. They brought in certain things, and I don't know about the medical treatment that was given to POWs. I know that one of the fellows in our room had a bad situation, he had crashed and had a broken leg, and I imagine he was in pain most of the time, but I don't know what the medical situation was. I didn't need it. I was in, like I say, I was in pretty good shape. And what we used to do, we used to walk around the compound every day, and we would play bridge. I read books. I went to class. Actually had this is a book that was given to me by a minister, the little Bible, Active Service edition, and he -- this book, I'm Jewish and we followed -- he set up Friday afternoons, Friday evening services in a German prisoner of war camp with full security. Our security was interesting. I was part of the group, and when -- when Keith would go and get the information on the radio or Morse code, we had fellows stationed all around the camp. And if guards were coming by, that particular day would be, oh, Babe Ruth hit a bases loaded home run or Babe Ruth stole second base, you know, these were the things, and then you'd be alerted. And that's what we had with this particular thing on Fridays. It didn't last too long, and there were only a few fellows that participated, but I'll never forget that, and he gave me this book. He was English, probably Presbyterian. He definitely wasn't Catholic, and he was a great Christian guy, and he -- we read this Bible.
Did the Germans know you were Jewish in the camp?
Yes, I'm sure they did, because it was on your -- on your dog tags. And while I was in the camp I remember one time where the rumor was that all the Jewish prisoners were going to be moved out, and I've read about it since then. Most of the camps the commanders, American commanders of the camps would not allow it, you know. And that was the end. I never heard anything after that period, but I do remember hearing the rumor that we were going to be moved out. And there were a number of fellows in the camp that I met that were from Cleveland. They don't live now, I don't even know if they're still living, but they had gone down in the raid on Ploesti. And you know, all these things that you didn't -- you talk about and this and that. We had -- we had one fighter pilot Tuskegee airman, I didn't realize at the time what this was, flying out of Italy. I wish that I would have spent some time with him, but he did move out of our -- out of our room. And certain things that now these guys write about. I didn't -- I didn't think -- One of them was, he was in the bunk above me, and he was an artist, the stuff that he did was unbelievable from Salt Lake City. And I don't know, you know, he went home, what was his career. I lost complete contact with everyone. So that was -- that was that. And like I say, the thing -- I have memories and coming back a little bit because I've become very active in Barbed Wire Buckeyes, and in fact tomorrow and Saturday and then next week I'll be out giving out daisies. Now, do you know about the daisies?
Yes, I do know about that.
You do know about the daisies.
Why don't you describe it again. I don't know if I've ever put that on tape.
The daisies --
Actually --
I'm the coordinator. And daisies, there's supposed to be some folklore about the daisies and that the daisies don't tell. I don't know. I've been trying to find out about it, but daisies don't tell. And prisoners of war, name, rank and serial number, that's all. Nothing else. So these are -- these are the things that will -- they can -- the monies -- this is an unusual time. Tomorrow is going to be a full memorial day tomorrow the 11th.
Right.
Full memorial day for over the whole country for President Reagan. And what I'm looking for is something that I probably won't be able to find. This is -- so what we do, we give out these daisies. Okay. We give out these daisies, and if you want to make a contribution, fine, we'll take the money, and it goes to very good purposes, different V.A. Hospitals, associations in Washington, and it's a very important day in my life because as the listing -- I've only been doing this for three years, and I succeeded Arnold Green. He was the one that was in charge of this before. And I just got it by a quirk because of what happened. I had a huge van, and we were at a chapter meeting one day, one Sunday, and the commander asked, he said, We have to give out these daisies to the different captains of the teams, and we need somebody with a van. I raised my hand, and I thought I was just going to, you know, pick up and deliver. However, as time has gone on, I've become very very involved, and for me it's actually a 12 month out of the year thing now. And little by little I've grown into working with these fellows, you know. To meet everybody and remember their names, it doesn't work. But and already I went to one funeral a week ago, and we're just, you know, getting older, passing on.
That funeral a week ago, was that Ben --
Musser (ph).
Musser. He was, unfortunately, he was on my list to interview.
He was.
And I didn't talk to him.
He had been pretty sick, and that was about two weeks ago.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Stalag Luft III, where was that located?
Sagan, Germany.
Sagan?
Yes. That's in -- Did you ever see a map of the prisoner of war camps?
Yes, I have. My dad had them, and somebody just showed me another one recently. I think he might have been in Sagan. Walter Maska (ph), was he there or Ed Brandtner?
Ed Brandtner is -- I don't know. I could tell you in one minute.
Were the other members from your -- the other officers from your crew in that same camp?
Yes. We were all in the same room. This is the latest -- I don't know the listing. You talked to Ed Brandtner?
I sure did.
And he could be in 2B and 12A. 9th Division. He was not in the Air Force.
Maybe it was -- was Paul Tamasko (ph) in the Air Force?
Tamasko, yes, I believe so. Let's see. This is -- this is something.
It doesn't say. Okay.
Stalag VII-A and XVII-B.
European 8th Air Force. Who is Tamasko, who is this one? Paul. Elizabeth was in the service.
What's NOK? I have no idea.
NOK is probably North Korea or something.
Oh, North Korea.
Yeah, North Korea. Anyway, so we have a whole bunch. And then some of these we had this tremendous turnout that went to Washington for last week for the services at the memorial, a whole busload. We can't go.
You didn't go to that?
No, we didn't go. It's not that -- not that easy for us to travel, especially for me. And I have to be able to do certain things, what should I say, I may need a bathroom now and then. And so we didn't. But other than that, like I say, and then we had -- we moved out, we moved out of that camp. You probably talked to fellows and they've told you about moving out across Germany as the American forces came in on the west and the Russians on the east, and you had no notice. Yes, you knew that there was -- there was something going on in Stalingrad and there was something going on here and something going on there because every day it was on the BBC. All of a sudden we're told one night that -- late in the afternoon that we're moving out that night. It was January 29th. Happens to be my wedding anniversary. Yeah, we moved out. And we had this one fellow with the broken leg. We made -- we took one of the bunks and made a sled. Did not -- they did not tell us if there was going to be a cart to take those that couldn't move around too easily. So we made this sled, and it was -- it was pretty much a mistake because we weren't in shape to be able to do that, you know, to pull this thing. It was a terribly cold night. It was a terribly cold winter, and we moved out, and we managed. We managed. We went to Spremberg. [Part 2]
We got on one of these freight cars, maybe 60 guys, and we didn't get off for days. And it just -- that was the worst treatment that we had but it wasn't, you know, what some of the other guys have gone through. But you're thirsty. You can go without food.
You can go without food for a long time?
Yeah, especially if you haven't -- if your rations have been cut back, but you can't go without water. You have to -- To dehydrate, to become dehydrated is the worst thing in the world. And that was -- that was something that we needed was water, and we did get some water. We got off -- I remember once we got off the train and we walked over to a fountain. But we were pretty well cramped. Some of the guys made hammocks. I don't know how they did, how they did it, but they made a hammock because there wasn't enough room. You were on the floor, and you were sleeping on the floor. And we went from -- we went across Germany in this thing, and we went to Nuremberg, and we were on a hill. There was a camp there. We went on this hill in the camp, and the first thing that happened was that we were shaved because there was lice all over the place, and who knew at the time when you'd go in to take a shower what was going to come down, water. We never knew about the camps, the death camps, and we were there for a couple of weeks. And we did get something to eat. And I don't remember where I slept. I think I slept on the floor. I might have had a blanket with me that I carried with me. I don't remember. But the night that we were moved out of -- out of Stalag Luft III, we got rid of -- it was cold but we got rid of a lot of the junk, souvenirs that we were taking and just threw it away, the extra jackets, the extra this, the extra that, that we had accumulated. Actually I was in the camp for, well, probably a good seven months or so. So, you know, and we had gotten stuff from home. And again, it was an officers camp. I think that we had different treatment than the fellows that I've talked to, the ones that were in the Bulge, Battle of the Bulge and their treatment and things like that that we've talked about. So then we went -- we went to Nuremberg, and from Nuremberg we were there for a couple of weeks, witnessed a couple of raids, air raids. Unfortunately, we saw parachutes coming out the plane and then parachutes were attacked by fighter pilots. We saw that. And then we went on a march, and I marched. I had problems with my knees, my ankles, and I went with about 15 or 20 fellows that had one guard, and we marched from Nuremberg to walked all across the area, I don't know how far it was, from Nuremberg to Moosburg. And that was good because we walked together. We would stop at farms, and the farmers would give us food. All you had to do was make a little -- write a little note to American forces that this family helped us, be kind to them, you know, and POW and your number and rank and serial number. And we got chicken, and we got eggs and things like that a couple of times. Most of the time they didn't -- just ignored us as we went through little villages, they would close up and you wouldn't see anybody. And the war was winding down, you know. So then I got to -- got to Moosburg, and I was one of the last -- in one of the last groups that got there. Could not find any of my friends that I knew would be there because they had marched off ahead of us. Did not see anybody. Was by myself. And actually it was a Sunday again, it was April 29th when -- we had heard the night before, we had heard the explosions and the bombs and the things going off, and it was about noontime we saw the flaggers sitting outside, we saw the flag go up on City Hall. I think it was the City Hall, the American flag, and we knew that we were -- we were safe. And there was no -- there were no guards. The guards had taken off. They were gone. And then made arrangements, Patton's Army came in, and they brought in food and different things that we needed. And for some reason, why I don't know, I happened to get -- there was a group of fellows from, what was it, 3rd Division, came in a Jeep, and I was by myself, and they came into this -- to the camp and said, You want to go for a ride? I said, Yeah. I mean, for us the war was definitely over, and they were -- they were ahead or behind the services, I don't know, and we went around. What they did, they went into certain houses, and they took souvenirs, and they were -- they were pretty good. There were two of them, and I sat in the back of the Jeep, and it was different for me. And then finally I made arrangements and they -- I was taken to someplace and flown to an airfield and flown out to complete my mission. I went to Camp Lucky Strike, Le Havre, which you've heard of. And again, I was all by myself because everybody else had left. And I was in a boat. I was put on a boat. I was the only one down in the hole, and the boat is rocking back and forth and back and forth. Finally it filled up. It was the General Gordon, I'll never forget it, and we came back across the Atlantic. And they fed me maybe five, six, seven times a day. So by the time I got home, I wasn't looking that bad. And then I made some more -- I made some friends again. We got back. We went to Trinidad, and then we went up to -- up to New York. The Statue of Liberty -- Sorry.
That's okay.
I saw the flag go up in Moosburg and I saw the Statue of Liberty. I was able later to go back with my family, take my kids there, we were on the island. It was quite an experience. I don't know if they remember it, but I remember it. And we were home, and there was -- we were at a camp in New Jersey. I forget what it was.
Maybe Camp Kilmer?
I can't -- I can't remember what the camp was, but we were able to go and -- we actually stayed one night at the Astor Hotel. I made friends again, and these were new friends, only spent a short -- we were at the Astor Hotel, and we stayed there for a couple of days, and we went to this camp. I don't remember what the name of the camp was. And then I got -- probably got on a train and came home, and that was it.
What was your reunion with your family like when you got home?
Oh, it was -- it was -- I'll never forget walking up the stairs at the terminal and seeing my brother and my girl friend at the time that I communicated with, and we went home. I saw my mom. And for me it was quite an experience. Then I went to Camp Atterbury in Indiana, and then I went to Florida. Came home, got married, not to this wonderful person but to another young lady that I had known from high school and mother of my children, and we had a big wedding at the Holland Hotel. And I was -- I was one of the first that came home, you know, and then they started -- they all started coming and coming and coming. And when I was in Florida, I met Skip Freeman, you know he was a POW in the Bulge, and his buddy Sam who's passed away. And I had a car. I got a car, bought a car, and had ration. It's funny, I got the ration coupons in there, the original ration coupons. And that's about my experience. I never had any doubt in my mind about coming home. Never.
Any mistreatment in the camp?
That's been asked of me a couple of times. Not as an individual. Not me, no. Even though I was Jewish, I am Jewish, and it was a known fact. Back again, no, there was -- I had -- I didn't have any mistreatment that I know of. I was never integrated -- interrogated, rather, to any depth. I didn't know anything, you know. And I think that -- No, I don't -- I had no -- I had no trouble, no trouble making friends, no problem. Just one of those things. I guess everybody -- I was on my own. I spent a lot of time by myself, but I was able to make some friends.
Now, you said that a pilot saw the ten parachutes, so your parents got word pretty quickly that you were missing?
I don't know. I was told there was family here, a fellow was stationed in England and that he had gotten some information and sent it back home. You've seen the telegrams that are sent to the families.
The missing in action telegrams?
The missing and then the letter that follows up that they'll be informed. No. I don't know. I never -- we never seemed to discuss that.
So you don't know how long it was before they found out you were a prisoner of war?
No. No.
Did you get much mail in the camp at all?
I did get some letters, we did get some letters, and I was able to send some home from the camp because it wasn't -- it was established. And you have to remember that we -- our service -- we took prisoners, German prisoners in Africa, we took prisoners in Europe, and they were brought here to the United States. And I mean, their treatment here was all together different. I remember I'm going down to Georgia -- going down to Florida, I stopped in a little store to get some cigarettes, and I had to go up some steps, and there were some German prisoners there I could tell because of the uniforms they were wearing, and they never even -- never even got up. I had to walk around them. I didn't see any guard. They weren't going anyplace. Their treatment here must have been pretty good. They were probably working in the fields, you know. No, I can't -- I've been asked that question many, many times as an individual. And, no, I don't think I was ever singled out. I don't -- interrogation, I think only one time. I didn't know anything, you know. So that -- like I say, I never -- we had -- what is the newspaper that the service publishes, what's that again?
Stars and Stripes?
Stars and Stripes. Once we got a Stars and Stripes and on the front page, and I'm sorry I never brought it home, was a picture of a kid that went to Shaker, he went to Dartmouth, he was playing football, his picture playing football, Gib Fronson (ph) who I know, and he was my first insurance agent when we came back to the States. That kind of a thing. It was to see that picture, and I saved it. It was one of the things that was probably discarded or thrown away, I don't know. Saved that. And it brought me close to home again, you know. And then the friends that were -- that I met after the war or during the war, prisoners from Cleveland and, like I say, I've lost all, you know, all communication with them. It was a closed book until a little -- a couple of years ago. And I owed to a gentleman, who was since passed away, an awful lot to get me involved in Barbed Wire Buckeyes, and I can't -- there isn't enough that I can do to repay the things that are happening, the good things that are happening to me about everything, being a former prisoner of war and taking advantage of the opportunities that I have to try and repay some of the things that are happening right now, you know. I'm here, you know. I'm going to be 81 years old. I did get up this morning a little bit stiff, but I got up.
Any other vivid memories come to mind about the war years?
I was -- I was reading -- I don't know how this happened because it was not something that -- but I read in one of the reports that I got credited with shooting down a German fighter. Now, I don't know if I said something. On our last mission we were by ourselves, and there were fighters after us, and we did destroy some fighters. It was back to that thing again, if you have -- if you have -- we were out of the formation. When you're in the formation, you can't just fire a machine gun east or west because you're liable to hit your own -- your own planes in the formation. But we were by ourselves, and there were fighters that were coming, and we probably were able to get two or three of them out of there. So I don't know. And I noticed in a report that I got credit for -- I don't remember. I didn't go back. I didn't make the report, you know. But by yourself, we were just -- it was just an unfortunate thing. We thought that we were over the Netherlands, and we were probably -- it's just as well because maybe five minutes away from the Channel. It was cold, you know. You're going to go down, who's going to help you then. So it's probably the smartest thing that he did as far as jumping, and it was quite an experience. The jump I remember. The landing I remember. The dogs I remember. But, you know, did not carry a gun. I would never have used it. No, I don't -- I don't remember anything. I do have a funny story. I was -- we were one of the first crews to fly two missions in one day. We had been off to someplace in Germany, and then we came back, and we were going to fly to Pas-de-Calais. There was to be an attack, and I was -- I was the lead bombardier of three other crews. We flew from England, west to east, I would say it was April, sometime in April, it was probably about 4:00 in the afternoon. And Pas-de-Calais was, as you know, it was very, very close to Dover. And we flew low, I don't know which mission it was, but we flew from west to east and turned to come back from east to west and fly low over the armament that was there, and you look out, and the sun is on the horizon and you cannot see. We could not see the target. So judging, I didn't use the bombsight as a bombsight, I juggled, you know, throwing baseballs or footballs you anticipate a distance. And unfortunately, I missed the target. But it did land in there someplace. And the other crews, they toggle, you know, you toggle your bombs, and then we came back, and that was my -- my big assignment in the war. And I just could not see. Could not see. The sun was so bright going back. And it's the same kind of a thing, if you're going from Painesville down to Jacobs Field and you see the sun, you can't see, you know. I can't think of anything. Most of -- most of my -- my thoughts are with the fellows that I have met, their stories. I've been able to go with them when they speak to kids in school, and we do sponsor a scholarship sort of a thing where they write stories about what either their parents, grandparents, grandfather was, you know, was in the service and what happened to him and things like that. And every spring, it's a terrific essay contest that goes on. Fellows go to talk to the classes. We went to Garfield Heights, I went with Arnold Green to Garfield Heights High School because the teacher there is a history teacher and wanted to talk about World War II, and what's the best way to find out is by talking to former -- former people that were in the Air Force or on the ground, you know. As I watched some of the shows that went on, think about -- I never -- I was never fighting on the ground. I never had to see my buddy blasted lying there bleeding. And these things I've heard the stories about it and how tough it's been. It's one of the things that, as I say, I was very fortunate. Yes, I saw ships blown out of the sky. I saw, as I said before, we came back and the beds were -- their clothes were gone, everything else had been picked up already, you know. And no, my treatment, I was never beaten. Yes, I was denied water. I was denied food. Certain things that you were denied. But it was -- it was a different kind of a situation. As we established, we established our camp. I went to classes. I actually got stuff from Edinburgh University in Scotland as through the Y, they brought it to us, and there were books. I don't remember what the books were, but it was part of an effort, and they were able to -- they were recognized, the Red Cross was recognized. There was musical instruments brought in. We had concerts. I told you we -- a fellow over me was an artist, and he did all these things, had this marvelous display. Sure, he had months and months to do it. Unbelievable displays. It could be that if I have one of those things today, might be worth $100,000. I don't know. And his name was Green also. But like I say, I lost complete contact with them. Did not take down the names, did not -- and I -- on the computer I had here which is being repaired now, I was able to get through and find out the names of some of my crew members, look them up and find out if they're, you know, if they're still around. But our lives were so different.
What day were you shot down, do you remember that day?
April 29th. I don't know. I could look it up. And I was liberated April 29th exactly one year. Yup.
Yeah, I found that everybody seems to remember the exact date.
Like I say, I remember -- I mean, these are things that you remember. I remember the flag, looking and seeing the flag. Actually we were out of the barracks sitting leaning up against it, and I don't know when it went up, but we could hear the 3rd Army, I don't know, 3rd Armored Division, I don't know what the regiment or what they were, but they just bypassed us completely, and there was -- the guards, everybody was gone, you know. We weren't going to walk out of there. And it didn't take too long to start. I would imagine in one day they were taking the guys out, taking them back home already. They were flying out. There was an airport must have been pretty close because it would -- you would -- they would take you in -- I'm trying to think of how we moved out. Probably in a truck or something. And you had some kind of records. You had a dog tag.
Right.
And they must have all the records and everything. You had to register. I don't know how they handled it, but they did a pretty good job as far as I was concerned. And then the war was over, and we were coming home. We were -- we were the lucky ones. Like I say, I was young. I never had any doubts. I don't -- I don't think -- Oh, I had an explosion. This is -- this is a story. I had an explosion that caused me to lose the hearing in my left ear. It was probably the second to last or the third to last mission that we were on. It was in the air. I know when it happened. I don't know the exact mission, but there was an explosion, and I came down, and I could not hear on my left ear. And then I went into medical, the doctor wanted to ground me. And absolutely no. I wouldn't -- I wouldn't let them do that because they were flying, and I wanted to be with them. I didn't want to go with another crew at this particular point. And so we flew, and then we went down. I came home, and I went to -- there was I think at one of the theaters downtown for veterans to go in and to be examined by an audiologist. And I went in, and they tested me, and I could hear. I couldn't hear on this ear. I'm left-handed, so you pick up a telephone, right.
Right.
Couldn't -- I couldn't hear. I had a job, and then I transferred over to this ear, and I can hear fine on this ear. I went all these years, I went to the Cleveland Hearing and Speech Center and there was nothing they could do. The Veterans Administration, nothing they could do. I went through an exam at -- well, there was a meeting at -- chapter meeting at 610 on the west side. It's American Legion, and that's where we meet every other month, the chapter, and it's a potluck kind of thing. And there was an audiologist from the V.A. that I saw, and there was nothing they could do. They put me through all kinds of tests, all kinds of tests. I'm trying to think of her name. I've got it in there. All kinds of tests. And there was nothing they could do. So I had a final appointment with her about two months ago, maybe a little bit longer than two months ago, a final appointment. She says, Larry, let's try something. She got this thing and put it in my ear, and I'm on a swivel chair, and she turns to me and she starts talking to me, and I could hear. I couldn't believe it. Now, it's not clear, but I did not hear on this side. If we would have gone to a baseball game together, you would sit on my right. You would not sit on my left because I would be looking at your mouth when you're talking, what did you say, what did you say. And this is the most amazing thing that has happened to me. Here it is. And I can hear. It's -- I can hear 250 percent better on this ear, you understand.
Right.
But I can hear. If you talk -- Say something to me.
Hi, how are you?
I'm fine, thank you.
Very good. It seems to work.
Very good. You're absolutely right. Now, there's not an echo on this side, but if I take -- Say something.
How are we doing here?
I didn't hear.
Very interesting today. You can't hear that, huh? Can you hear it now?
Can I hear you now?
Yes, can you hear me now?
I can hear you now.
All right.
All right. Yeah. Absolutely amazing. And this has blocked it a little bit away, but I've turned it down, but this is absolutely an amazing thing that happened. And the funny part of it was when I went through the protocol exam at the V.A., former prisoner of war, Yes, you cannot hear on that ear, but you have two ears and you can hear very good on the other one, so there's no disability. However, she -- now, she was pregnant, and I was probably one of the last patients that she saw, and she was going to take a leave. I called because you get this thing, and you want to get it adjusted properly and everything. I went down to try and find out if I could see an audiologist, just somebody to help me make sure because she only spent a few minutes with me to go through this whole thing and gave me all the instructions, and I've got an appointment in I think it's in August. I can't get it before. But the treatment that I have received and I've mentioned this more than once, the treatment I personally have received at the V.A. in Wade Park has been unbelievable, just unbelievable. I hope I never have to go in as an emergency case, but I've seen -- I have a doctor, personal physician, Dr. Yakashin (ph) who is head of the GI series at Wade Park, and I happened to stop in to see him a week or so ago just to say hello because I wanted to make an appointment. And I saw the clinic. Fabulous. It's a new clinic for those that need GI series that have stomach problems, colon problems and everything else. Unbelievable what they've been able to do there with the kind of professional help that they have. And there's a lot of criticism about certain things that are going on, but I had -- we were in Florida, and I'm on Coumadin for my -- I had a mitral valve repair, and my heart's in pretty good shape, and I was down in Parkland, I think that's what it was. I was in Sunrise, and I had to go to a clinic in Parkland. I think it was Parkland. Went in because I was going to run out of my Coumadin, and I needed a test. Well, they -- I wasn't on their computer. They put me on their computer, and I went in the next day, the pharmacist there, he called Cleveland, talked to them in Cleveland. Now, and then he was able to suggest that I have my milligrams updated, which it was increased, and it's very very good. I've been back since January and since March in Cleveland. I go in for a blood test, and they watch what the reading is. You don't communicate between the different areas. You can -- I mean, you're not on their computer unless they put you on theirs in Florida. I'm not on a computer in Arizona, you understand. But it's a known fact that if anything would happen, going to a V.A. Hospital, you would get unbelievable treatment. Sure, there are more veterans, more people without insurance that are going, you know, and they're overcrowded and you do have to wait because many of their doctors are interns, and the one thing you do -- you hope that you have a doctor who is associated with the V.A. and he will -- you will be able to see him the next time because many times I've gone into the dental, I see different dentists.
They move on.
They move on. They're there from Case Western Dental School, and the Case Western sends a lot of interns there. They'll work for a couple of years, and then they'll go someplace else. Because I don't think that there's -- because of the age of the patients that they have. Every now and then I see somebody who looks like he's -- he's from Iraq, you know.
Right, right.
The first war. But most of them, you know, they're in their 70s, late 70s or 80s, and some are in bad shape. Some from Korea. But I don't know what it's going to be, you know. But like I say, I'm very thankful. I don't for any reason think of my mistreatment, can't come up with anything, other than being a prisoner of war with a bunch of other guys.
I've heard that from other prisoners in Europe that they were not mistreated. The Germans were afraid of the conduct of war and the Geneva Convention.
I honestly think that something had to do with the commanders of the prison camps.
Right, exactly.
That he would say no way, you know. Because there was a way to communicate back. If we could get information in from BBC, from England, we could get the information out.
Right.
And this was something that because I had heard that Hitler had wanted these prisoners brought up to a camp where there were Jewish prisoners, and I just don't think that it could happen, that's all. Now, there were some in our camp who were, one in particular that I know of, who became a very close friend of mine, was a captain, was shot down in the raids on Ploesti, he may have been something that was informative to the commandant, the commander of our prisoner of war camp, and confided certain things, you know. He was a lead pilot. You know, there were captains, there were majors in the camp, and although the fellows when I went to these services, when I went to these services, they were -- there were only about four or five of us. This is -- this is -- Would you read this? In the beginning, the Nation of Israel, the birth of Moses.
Right.
This is -- this is the life of the ministry of our Lord. The birth of John the Baptist. But the beginning of this thing is very Jewish. It's very Jewish. It's quite a souvenir. You see, these are the things that happened. On the wall of the -- on the wall of the barracks in the hall, after the Great Escape, the Germans published it, you've probably seen it or heard of it, it's down in Dayton. We saw it down there. There was a big poster put up. It said it was no longer a sport to escape, by the Germans, and it was warning that you would be -- well, I would have to see just what it said, but it was if you escaped, you would be shot.
I think I remember this.
And when I left on the 29th, I took it off the wall, okay, and I carried it with me. It was one of the few things that I brought home. I have very dear friends that were associated with the Museum of Natural History, and the daughter was working. I took this down one day thinking that it could be an archive, and it was -- it was never posted. And I went back to try and get it a couple of years later, and they couldn't find it. It's probably still there.
Right, it's just not marked.
Right, it's not marked. It was a very important, valuable thing to me that I had brought home. We saw -- we went down to Dayton down to the Air Force Museum down there, and it is in there, it's posted. These are -- these are things that, like I say, you'll see them someplace and it will remind you of what was going on.
Right.
And I don't know why it was shut off. Every -- it was all shut off, all these fellows that I met, why I didn't take and write their names down, why I didn't keep a diary. Maybe I did keep a diary for a while, but I don't -- I don't have that. And now I just started to go through all the things that I've accumulated, and I'm starting to throw stuff away. That's when I found this.
Right.
These things. [Interview concluded]