Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with Linda M. Hooks was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. Spelling errors are indicated with [sic]; however, recurring errors in spelling within a single document have been marked the first time and not subsequently.
Today is November 18th, 2004. My name is Melanie Polutta, and this is Linda M. Hooks, H-o-o-k-s, that I'm interviewing. So some of the questions I'm going to kind of be repeating for the interview.
Okay.
So first off, where were you born, and did you grow up there.
Yes. I was born in Sandersville, Georgia, Washington County, a small hometown. And I lived there and grew up until I left and went to college.
Umhum. Where did you go to college.
Morris Brown College in Atlanta, Georgia, 19 -- I graduated in 1969.
Okay. So you went -- did you go straight into the military then.
I -- as a matter of fact, when I was in college in my -- my junior year, I was looking on the bulletin board and it said, If you want to make $500 a month, call this number. It ended up being the Army recruiter. I said it was part of my faith. Didn't know what I was doing, but that's -- that's how I got here.
Umhum. So what did you actually major in, then.
Actually, French, liberal arts, but I just changed my major for math, because I wasn't getting well-grounded, I felt, in that. So I changed to something that wouldn't take me through the same department at school.
Umhum.
I recognized I should have done something like accounting or something like that, because I got a thing for numbers.
Umhum. So did you -- did your major add to what you got in the Army, that it helped you get in or --
No. Basically, this was a program that the Army had called College Junior Program.
Umhum.
It was the predecessor to what they would call now the Army ROTC program or Student Officer Candidate Program, something like that. But at that time it had not grown to that extent. So they called it the Army College Junior Program. And again, I saw this advertisement. I kind of put my name in the hat and had gone away to New York working that summer. I had forgotten all about it. Got a phone call and was encouraged that I was one of the first few minorities in a long time to have made it to that point and that I should avail myself of this opportunity. So I left New York that summer. Went down to this program at Fort McClellan, Alabama. I think it was about four to six weeks. And this was my first indoctrination into Army life at all. And that was my real beginning. And then at the time I still hadn't made up my mind, even though we would have gone to -- if you were selected into the program.
Umhum.
You didn't have to go in, but if you were selected, then you finished your senior year in college, and then you would get commissioned when you graduated.
Umhum.
I kind of like arbitrarily, like I say, was just guided. That was my fate, I guess. In this process I had no idea what I was doing. Didn't understand being an officer versus being enlisted. Had -- my whole inkling was more geared toward not going back to a small hometown teaching school. I didn't want to do that. And also, it gave me my independence that they were going to pay me $500 a month beginning right then after I got into the program, and I saw that as a way to sever from my family or my dad and being, you know, so tight about money. So my motivation was different. But again, now, I've always known and felt this is where, you know, He meant for me to be in terms of my growing and my learning and my exposure and what I've seen. And I have several -- I have several papers to speak of to that part of -- part of my growing and learning process as well throughout the Army. And at first being, you know, black and an officer, most people at that time would say they've never seen a black female officer. That was --
Yeah. I mean, that's like a double-whammy there.
Right. That was the time -- I mean, it's more predominant now, but I was one of the few at that time that got to be an Army officer, again. It was right after the Vietnam War. The Vietnam War was all kind of, you know, winding down. People would see, you know, you were with the Army recruiter or something like that, and you know, there was a lot of biased against going into the military. Also, I used to get the things about, Well, women don't go into the military. Nothing but whores or bulldaggers and stuff like that. So my thing was like that -- none of that suited me or fit me, so it's like, you know, I'm not doing it for that reason. I saw this as independence. It was only a two-year obligation. I still would be like 23 when I got out or -- so it was all those kind of processes going on in my mind. Having, like I said, come from a small hometown and most people end up going away to college, going back home teaching, and I just couldn't see myself doing that.
Didn't feel like a teacher, huh.
Nope. Nope. Not going back to my hometown, just that -- that -- that lifestyle.
Umhum.
So I was doing something to at least offset that but still have a job and move on. And again, it was good, because it helped me stay stuck when I made -- when I just wanted to jump out and move around as you're young and growing, but the Army didn't allow that. Even when you went through your pitfalls, ups and downs, you had certain commitments in time. So that was good as well. You know, I went through a lot, but it's all good, I guess, in the end.
Umhum. So since you were going in as an officer, did you still have to go through basic training.
Well, yeah, but it wasn't -- there wasn't a -- a matter of fact, where I went at Fort McClellan, Alabama, we wasn't as bad as the enlisted women were. But it was somewhat our first indoctrination into, Okay, here's an inspection. Here's how you salute. Here's how you do whatever. I -- we had -- I didn't know anything. We had no training. I used to say, Don't salute the ones with the stripes. I didn't even know -- you're laughing, but this is the truth. I'm telling you, my whole story is a -- is, like I say, godsend, a School of Hard Knocks. I just -- you know, I was like, Oh, don't salute those. All I remember, they were gonna pay me $5,000 to come into the military. I only got to do two years and I'm an officer. Hey, anybody can do two years.
Umhum.
That was my thought process at the time. Not -- not at all about what it really meant. As a matter of fact too, later on once I realized how much significance there is even when I was to get commissioned, I didn't even understand that that day of my graduation. I should have been commissioned and all. Because the recruiter who had initially gotten me into the program was sick, or something happened to her in between, and in the middle nobody kind -- I told you, I didn't know. I just didn't know what I didn't know. So I kind of, you know, used to kid and tell people that story about I went there the next day with this big Afro hair and, you know, blue jeans and stuff. And I could think now about what those people thought, you know, about me. You know, I said, They must have spent my dollar right away. You know, all that history I didn't understand.
Umhum.
And then you know what? Ironically when my mom passed, I had a picture of that. I have a picture of that, being sworn in, like I said, with the Afro and all that --
Oh.
-- or whatever, that I didn't know that it existed, but that's -- my history isn't -- I know -- like I said, I need to really write a book about my -- my -- there's a lot more -- a lot more in between.
Umhum.
But I know that this was a God-given enterprise for myself.
Umhum.
And --
So it really -- you feel like being in the Army benefited you --
Oh, yeah.
-- in lots of ways.
Oh, personally, whatever. You know, like, again, learning the -- you know, just learning a little bit about structure and handling emotions and not being, you know, all self-centered. I mean, all those things that when you just might want to just go off and do something, if you have something that made you kind of not be able to just get up and go and -- you know, without having some consequences at the time.
Umhum.
And then say, Well, okay, I'll get out. I was always like, I'm gonna get out as soon as I can, but for whatever reason, you know, it never kind of happened that way. I was going to retire at 20 years and one day after I decided now that I've been in a while. I ended up being in 25 years. So it's a little bit of all that kind of history. But I will always remember reading that bulletin board, and that fate started, and I had no idea, really, what I was getting into.
So you didn't actively pick the Army as opposed to the Navy; it just happened to be the one that was there.
Umhum. Umhum.
So --
I always thought about the military in a sense. My brother was in the Marines, the Marine Corps. But some -- you know, some of this stuff I just -- I always thought about the military, because from a small hometown that was a way to get away.
Yeah. I've heard that before from some of the other vets --
Yeah. And maybe, you know, that was always at the back of my mind. And just as the Lord would have it, this program, you know, was -- I just happened to be a junior. I just happened to -- you know, all these things are not really consequences in a way, but that's really how it begun.
Umhum.
And my younger brother was in the Army, and his -- his -- his -- I don't know, his -- his take on officers also had tainted my mind about officers or, you know -- you know, putting them down or whatever.
So --
So I had all this kind of stuff rolling in the back of my mind of not wanting to think like -- you know, I think I'm special or better or -- you know, all of that. So when I first went in, I think I used to, you know, kind of -- you know, kind of be too lenient towards trying to be the good girl until somebody really screwed me around or screwed me over. Again, then I realized it wasn't all about me. But that still is an issue about how people just think you're, you know, like you said, an officer in the Army, and they just -- they don't see the whole, they just see whatever is in there --
See you as authority.
Yeah, in their minds and all that.
So two of your brothers were also in the armed forces.
Umhum.
Were either of them officers as well.
My baby brother -- there's three, actually. My baby brother, he was a major. He retired as a major in the Air Force. He came in after I did. He went to the Citadel. And by that time, I'd been in the military a little bit now, and I can kind of help guide and talk to him about, you know, how to play this and not be so green behind the ears, even though we still were green.
Yeah, they can't help that when they're younger.
So it was actually three of us.
Wow.
Five kids, all of us in the military except my sister. And my brother-in-law said she should have been the one who was -- so --
You were clearly destined.
Yeah. Yeah. And my dad served in, I guess, the Korean War or whatever. And that -- and my -- yeah, everybody --
You were just geared to it, yeah. Interesting you mentioned the Citadel. I mean, I'm from Charleston, South Carolina --
Are you.
-- and that's right there.
Umhum. Yeah.
And my cousins went through it.
Yeah. Well, you probably wouldn't remember him, but yeah, he played football on a football scholarship. Stump Mitchell, Dave, if that name rings a bell.
Not off the top of my head.
Stump Mitchell was a running back in the NFL. What's the name of that coach? One of the NFL coaches was also one of his coaches that came, you know, into the NFL. But anyways, I always wanted him to make the pros, really, so I could find me a husband that way through him, but he didn't make pros, but...
Okay. So you served during Vietnam. What were your duties during that time since it was at the tail end.
Basically, at that time I just came into the Army and was just a part of kind of being there during that period of time. I didn't participate in any particular entities about Vietnam. As a matter of fact, as I told you, it was winding down. There was a lot of animosity and stuff about --
So you were never actually in Vietnam itself.
No.
All on the home front.
No. All -- no, luckily.
Yeah, it would have been rather unpleasant over there, I'm sure.
Yeah. I mean, every one of these wars, and particularly this one right now, I really feel for those kids.
Umhum.
I really feel for them.
Yeah. Well, I think people nowadays have kind of learned the lessons of Vietnam and are not resenting the people quite so much.
Umhum.
You were the soldiers, but still, they've got to be dealing with some bad --
Umhum.
-- feelings from people who don't like the war.
Yep. Yep.
So did you ever have that kind of -- I mean, well, you said during Vietnam, of course --
Oh, yeah.
-- you had saw that animosity a lot.
Oh, yeah, very much so.
Do you have any particular experiences that related to that kind of animosity.
Well, like I say, the comments that you would hear about even being associated with someone in the military. Like, I was at campus one time, I guess, a recruiter came and, you know, kind of the comments and shouts people would give you about, you know, just downing the military at all. And, you know, it wasn't a good time. A lot of people were getting downsized and getting kicked out or -- you know, it was just so much -- it was really at that time -- I came in '73, so that was really when it was really occurring, the end of it, I think, in 1975 officially.
Umhum.
But it was not a good period of time for most people.
It was amazing that you were guided into the Army during that time.
Again, I'll tell you, my thoughts was totally away from it. Two years, pay me $5,000. I'll still -- you know, I can get out, you know, I mean --
Yeah.
Just like a --
Yeah.
-- you know, job.
Nowadays the Army really -- well, any of the armed forces really offer good deals to get the good people in.
Umhum. Umhum.
So being one of the first black female officers, what kind of experiences did you have that felt like you were improving a lot of other people like yourselves? Or did you have any really hard times from that.
Oh, yeah. I had a very -- had lots of hard times with that. At first I used to be very, very -- something about when they would have to have a board or they have to have something that they've now got to comply with, you know, being nondiscriminatory or whatever. I could satisfy two things: I'm female and I'm a black, so, you know --
So you became desirable for wrong reasons.
Yeah. Yeah. I used to, you know, resent that a lot. But then, again, in the end I started seeing, you know, the processes and procedures and sometimes about how they're not really trying to easily pick the right person or the right thing. They're just going through the process, because that's what the process says you go through, but no one really trying to -- try to adhere to the process.
Umhum.
Just a drill. And so I __ think I got thrown into those type of situations. I felt very alone. There was no one that I could identify with. One, most people were not black. Blacks were not officers. They certainly were not females. You were isolated. Oftentimes -- I remember one time reporting into my battalion, MP battalion. And, you know, these are the days, like I say, of Afros and everything. This -- my executive officer says to me, Well, do you know Lieutenant Carr? Have you seen her hair? And in the end, Lieutenant Carr is a white female, blond. Hair down here. You know, like -- you know -- you know, they always wanted me to, you know, try -- try and fit in. Be a part of something that I never was, one way or the other. They never did, but -- yeah, it was a lonely road sometimes.
Umhum.
Not even family or friends, because they don't understand the military. They don't understand the officer thing. All the blacks, the people that you know that primarily would be enlisted, there was this thing about you can't, you know, fraternize. And it's like, Well, you're almost telling me I can't even talk to my own brother or something, but that's the way they came at you then.
Umhum.
People in the military were very -- you know, other blacks or something or -- particularly officers, they were like hands off, because, you know, that's -- that's just the way that it was. So you were really -- you're left out there to just -- whatever, you know.
So you were -- you were --
Most people resented you because they thought you were here because the system did put you here, you know, so it was a -- it was all of that.
Umhum. Did you ever feel that it affected your relationships with those who were black and were your subordinates.
Yeah. Oh, yeah, because, again, you started realizing, again, nobody saw you as you.
You were a symbol.
Yeah, a symbol. Oftentimes you were used both ways one way or the other.
Umhum.
Like I said, I think I ended up kind of getting into trouble a lot of times at first trying to -- trying to be a good -- you know, like a good __, a good girl, but not understanding what this means. I didn't -- I really -- I told you, I didn't know what I was doing. I was saluting __+ with the stripes. I really had to learn the ranks. I didn't understand this --
Well, I don't know them.
Well, this decisiveness of even being an officer enlisted, I didn't even understand that dynamic when I went it. So kind of fitting in, you didn't fit nowhere --
Umhum.
-- in a way. So it was a -- it was a lonely first year, I think, in trying to adjust in some things that happened. But whatever happened, as the Lord would have it, I was able to sustain. Sometimes maybe I shouldn't have even been in the Army, but yet, still I was and I am. And --
So was your family proud of you for what you were doing.
Yeah, in a way they were proud, but also like -- like put like an icon. Again, they think your life is, like I said, this storybook in their head, not the real reality of what I'm really dealing with and what I've had to deal with. And, you know, thinking -- like some analogy, Oh, you're Colin Powell or something. You think you're general -- you know what I'm saying? This is the mindset. Or you have the others that are just wholly -- just into you just because you're colonel. You know, with the rank, I could be a __+ person. You know, so you have both of those. You never knew whether people were dealing with you for you.
Umhum.
Just you, whatever you are.
Umhum.
Good, bad, or indifferent. So I used to have a problem with that. I still do. I do if anybody, you know, relates to you -- you never know what they are relating to you for, what it's like...
It takes time.
Yeah. Like, I would never want to be a celebrity. Like even -- really, like an Oprah or somebody. I don't see how they do it.
No.
If I had to go through this just -- Oh, you're an officer, and they just -- just put a certain mindset there.
Stereotype.
Yeah.
So what were your actual jobs while you were in there? What kind of duties did you have.
Oh, a jack-of-all-trades. Well, when I first -- first went in, I went in to be a military police person. That choice again was again not real -- like I said, I think I've been more impulsive when it comes to the military and my career and buying cars than I am at anything else. So when I first came in, I chose to be an MP. They sent us __ Fort Benning, Georgia -- I mean, it was at Fort Gordon, Georgia. __ 45 minutes from my hometown. Okay? I didn't want to stay with Fort McClellan, Alabama, which then was basically all women, or that's what the base was or whatever, and I didn't want to be somewhere with all women or whatever. And guess what? The MP Corps moved to Fort McClellan, Alabama, a couple years later. But anyways, I chose to be an MP, because I had this thing in the back of my mind about criminal investigator, being an investigator type from TV, or whatever it may be, but didn't understand. So I went in. I don't get to be an MP. All I get to do is supervise people who do this. And that was a pain in the butt having to be in trouble for what they do or don't do or whatever. But that's the -- that's the field I chose. And again, probably in a way that helped, again, toughen me up, but it also taught me a lot about the integrity that's supposed to leave you foster, or don't foster, or whatever. So that's what I went into first, as an MP. Went to my first assignment at Fort Benning to be an MP along with my roommate, who was also black. The two of us went MP Corps. Actually, there was three of us went MP Corps. There's only seven blacks in my class of 150-some girls.
Wow.
Seven blacks. Three of us went to the MP Corps. We went to Fort Gordon, went to school. Two of us ended up at Fort Benning, and one other one went to Fort Eustis, or something like that. Well, she and I came and went in to sign in at Fort Benning. They told us that -- because they signed -- we signed lieutenant or whatever. They said, Oh, you need to go to the hospital. Why do we need to go to the hospital? They assumed because we were black, we were second lieutenants, we had to be nurses. No, you're laughing. No, I'm not -- you're laughing.
It's the stereotype. Just assumptions.
Right. They just -- well, you know, you certainly couldn't be anything else. And then it was so funny, that even the next day or whatever, they sent us in to get processed, they sent us in as though we were enlisted, because we weren't in uniform then for whatever reason. I can't recall why we weren't, you know. And the guy got all mad, Who's in charge here? You know, you're an officer. You're not supposed to go here. It was just that thing, thinking we were -- and then when it came, Oh, yeah, well, they are lieutenants. They are MPs. MP -- MPs weren't ready for us. They came back, and I'm serious, they told us they only had two jobs. One, XO, the white -- women's other corps company, white company we called it, or race relations. And literally flipped a coin to see which one of us got what.
Oh, goodness.
I'm serious. I am not lying to you.
I believe you. Things were just totally different --
These were -- that's why __+ my first two years, and all I encountered there at Fort Benning and whatever, it was just all this -- all this -- you know, like what you thought just went to a crashing halt, and so disappointing and whatever. You know what I mean?
Umhum.
But I ended up with the white company. My friend went to race relations. And that was the beginning of our plight. When we went to the MP company, the same kind of thing. They just weren't used to having any females for one. Here goes some of the black -- second lieutenant. What the heck is going on? So it was not a -- it was a pretty rough tenure there.
Umhum.
Matter of fact, when they -- when they dictated that the Army had to kind of comingle now and not be separate, Fort Benning didn't do it that way. They went and made -- enlisted -- you know, made a barracks for the women, but supposedly, you know, didn't do it the way the Army wholeheartedly happened -- said they had to do. And guess who they chose to go stick the steel bill here dealing with this scenario? And I didn't like it. I hated it. And having to even just do that duty, been like, you know, XO of a company. And just housekeeping, like in a way, you know, because mainly that was your duty associated with the girls who just stayed there. It wasn't like your company had a function. You were just like the person that makes sure they had beds and -- you know, whatever, meals. That administrative part for all the women. So __+ still just like you were when I was an XO of the white company. I was the same thing. And I had been wanting to get out and finally could do an MP -- an MP tour. Matter of fact, participated in the inaugural for the President Ford. And now, like I said, I remember how -- I even have pictures of that, how they -- how they -- how they kind of dogged -- dogged me around and the other girls about that. We were the honor company. We did great. We did good. And, you know, how I was just pulled in to lead the women after like three or four days before, because the other company commander was a female. But apparently somewhere in between -- like I understand now, things happened with somebody, decided her -- the way she looked or whatever, whatever, they didn't want her to be the leader. So, you know, in come -- come myself. And we stood out there on that field, I know, for over two hours, but how well the women did covering up or whatever. Here's these big-ass men dropping like flies. But anyways, there's a picture. And people got letters and stuff. I didn't understand men, how they denied us, the women. What I could have done to at least make sure they had some recognition for that. But it was days like that that I was always like just -- I just was always -- and still am dismayed how people can respond to you just because.
Umhum.
Just because, yeah.
So what did you do after you left the MPs?
Okay. Finally got to get away from the MPs and went to -- went to the M -- to the MP station. Ended up being like the logistical commander. Finally got a chance to leave Fort Benning now. Most -- like I said, the most -- oh, I couldn't wait to leave there, personally and professionally, everything. But I left there and went to Fort Meade, Maryland, here. Now going to MP battalion, finally, you know, to be an MP now finally. I tell you, I walked in, that's when the guy tells me about my hair and how I need to look like Lieutenant Carr, and I realized what she looks like. So they shipped me off to what we call temporary duty to somewhere called Fort Drum, New York. And probably, again, as I look back on it, probably, you know, God sent me in a different way, because now I was really MP duty. It was a very small town. It was mostly reservists. There was not even -- first time I ever went somewhere there wasn't even like a black section of town.
Oh, really.
There was only, like, two or three black people on the base.
That must have been a shock to your system.
Yeah, all of that. And -- well, I got to be really an MP. I was there at a time when they called it the Blizzard of 1977, where they had all the snow __ up there. Driving my car in there and parked in the snow and __+ like that forever. I've never been in snow. I'm from Georgia.
Snow was as high as the car.
Yes. I had never been in snow in my life. I'm from Georgia, I'm -- all of that, so it's like --
Total shock.
Yeah. But that was the first time I started having, you know, more interaction with the guys and the troops and doing whatever I'm doing. Again, just like learning again. Again, this is what my battalion -- I guess they said, Oh, my God, you're the second lieutenant. Just ship me out or hit me out of the way. But I went there and I learned, and I started doing well. And that's when I think I got promoted to captain at that time. I just wanted to go somewhere and just work, like, be a normal person or whatever.
Umhum.
So I learned to start playing racquetball and Scrabble and doing stuff like that, so...
Cool.
I left there and came back to Fort Meade and continued then -- by then, I guess, they had given me a little bit more of a shot. I got to be a commander of a unit, even though it was still not, you know, the real unit, but I still got to be a commander, and I did pretty well there. But again, I was always used as a scapegoat for the -- what we call the strap battalion or the -- you know, the fighting -- the fighting battalion units or what they call the -- you know the ones they send out to say Granada or somewhere or whatever.
Umhum.
MPs were really the ones really being called to be the first one to go, I felt. Changing our role from white hat to more like infantry, because to save the corps -- because, again, traditional white-hat duty was, you know, starting to be downplayed. You could have -- could have civilians do that. You didn't need to have military police to do it. So basically started having us trying to be infantry men overnight in a sense.
Without giving any kind of training.
Right, right, right. It's just all -- you know, that was the push to save the corps. We had to change our role. Right now the first people anywhere you go, it's gonna be MPs, no matter where you go. To me, that's first to go, first to die, but anyway... A lot of deployments. They downsized the MP Corps. A matter of fact, later in my life as an IG, I did get to do something to write about the -- the -- the state of the MP Corps. Write up against some of my same battalion commander. They just give me a hard time. He's a general now. But that was odd. But I ran into him again. But in that battalion I learned a lot. I had a crazy saying -- I learned -- I learned -- I just learned a lot. I got involved in a lot because of what they did, the MP Corps did.
Umhum.
And I would get assigned projects to go do that. Like armed forces --
A lot of skills and how to be a better officer kind of thing.
No, no. No, just coordinating anything. For instance, we would have to host the rifle competition throughout the Army. 700 soldiers coming in to -- to -- to shoot rifles. Learning how to coordinate and plan and execute something like that.
Umhum.
We would get to do Armed Forces Day where we had to display. We got to go and take the truck and do this. We'd have ceremonies. You got to shoot the cannons and stuff. You know, you got to have the troops and drills and prepare for that. Those kinds of things my battalion was involved in. So as a consequence, I got to start, you know, doing a little bit of all of that.
Wow.
Learning how to --
Well, at least it kept it interesting.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but then I found out, I don't want to be an MP, because that's a 24-hour, 7-day-a-week job, and it was just, you know --
Even more so than the rest of the Army.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The nature of the duty is __+ if you're in a position that doesn't require like there's a nurse, a policeman, or a doctor, or whatever. You -- sometimes -- somebody got to have -- be working those shifts all the time. It's not like you can close the office down and come back the next day.
Umhum.
So therefore, there was a lot of rotation and, you know, that kind of thing. And having to be -- go do duty, on duty all night, be the duty officer around the post, and then still go back the next day and have your commanding carry on, you know, whether you got sleep or not. That's the way it worked.
That sounds interesting.
So it was very, very -- but the MP Corps, I guess being in the MP Corps, like I said, I got to learn and see and do a lot. And as a consequence, again, never knowing what -- I'd see some other people always recognize my skills. I don't really readily recognize them. I'm in the MP company. And I tell you, all the real rah-rah battalion guys, they going off to deployments doing their thing. And they would leave my unit -- me behind as a rear detachment commander, which I will represent my boss, who was a lieutenant colonel, as a -- you know, a rear detachment commander while they were deployed. As a consequence, then, I had to participate at the post level in his stead while he was gone. Apparently, however I did that, ended up the post commander. Next thing I know, he's going to make me the post XO, post executive officer.
Wow.
To be honest to you, I didn't even know what it meant. All I know is the same people who have been giving me a hard time saying, Crazy Major and all -- who I learned a lot from, though, very smart as hell, but he's crazy, says, Don't step on people on your way to the top. I didn't know. And go get FM 101-5, which is like a leadership manual, and read this and... And I remember her -- there was another black female, an MP officer there that had come now, who said to me, she said, Linda, you don't -- you don't know what -- you don't know what this means? I don't know what it means. The major saying you got the eyes and ears of the boss. You're like -- you know, I guess, the president who is at the top or whatever, you are his right-hand man or whatever person. People walking up to me shaking my hand, you know, just -- I had no concept of it.
Huh.
But it was the best job I could have, because when I saw some of these other guys with 0-6 colonels, and how they performed and didn't perform, or whatever at that level, my colonel -- how you always want to send me to -- you know, get in -- get into their stuff. Like I said, he saw something in me I didn't see myself. He picked me. I didn't even know what it was all about.
Huh.
And I said to myself, If that guy can be an 0-6, I can be a ten-star general. So I think that was the first time of me really kind of, you know, getting to see what it's like. It was like running -- like what my job was like. Helping running -- run -- running installations, just like running a town, like being the mayor of a town and being the chief administrator or something.
Umhum.
So I learned -- I learned all those facets of how things kind of worked. It was -- again -- and I had a good nurturer then that took me under his arm as a black -- finally a black 0-6.
Oh, good.
About writing and talking and going through, you know, how it is and what you have to do. Because although I was still in the Army and whatever, I was always just dogged out, dogged out, dogged out. You know, never just, you know, put in the time. Think I'm gonna get my -- my dues. Never get my dues. Here you see where somebody is just so much more, you know, loyal performing, yet they get -- you know, they get higher ratings or whatever, just -- you know, and that was just --
So you not only had to excel, but you had to more than excel just to get --
Yeah. Still -- still may not get it, right. Always -- always -- always -- whatever.
Umhum. How long does it actually take you to go from second lieutenant to captain.
Seven -- seven years -- let me see. I made captain in 1976 -- no, I made first lieutenant in two years.
Okay.
And I was the first lieutenant to captain -- no -- oh, I made it in like two -- like, what, two years? I made captain in a very short time. Because of the time line they had, I was one of the ones who was lucky who made it sooner than some of the rest of them did.
Umhum.
I think I made captain --
So you weren't really delayed --
Uh-uh.
-- in getting your promotion.
Oh, no, no. My -- luckily, I should have been, but I wasn't for the times. And that's what made me feel like even the times, I messed up and didn't know what I was doing, I was given a break. So I always felt like, you know, even at the time when I got to be a lieutenant ma -- lieutenant colonel, not knowing I had that one in the bag, and it shouldn't be no issue. You know, that we're even, kind of, sort of. But not realizing that some people just can't handle whatever.
Okay. I'm clueless about ranks. After captain comes major.
Major.
And then lieutenant colonel.
Umhum.
Okay.
So it's the same rank. Like Ollie North -- make an analogy like that. That's the same rank Ollie North was. You used to watch Major Dad.
Umhum.
He's a major. Then I'm sure you've seen captain -- captain is usually the rank you see or hear about all the time.
Yeah.
And -- okay. First -- second lieutenant, first lieutenant, captain.
Umhum.
Those are what they call company grade field. When you make major, that's what you call the field grade. That's when you go major, lieutenant colonel, full-board colonel, then general.
Umhum.
That's how it works.
So the captain and lower is where you have a smaller group, and the major and higher, you may have responsibility for more than one company.
Yeah. More than likely as a major, you might have several captains under you. As a captain, you might have a couple of lieutenants. And, you know, it's progressive like that, the rank structure is. And I had to learn too as I went through it, and I never had a problem. I used to say, Well, heck, if I don't make it, they -- I don't get promoted, they gonna pay me $30,000 at one time, more money, I'll get another job and keep going. It's like, Hey, so be it. That's the way I felt, as opposed to a lot of people really felt so deflated when you didn't get promoted. But I found somewhere as I was going through something how the numbers shrink the higher you get.
Umhum.
So you get -- you got 3,000 lieutenants, you ain't gonna need, you know, 100 colonels. So somebody's gonna have to go in between. That's just the way it was. And that's the way I always looked at it. Had I didn't -- you know, you would have gotten $30,000 if you got passed over, whatever. I'd take that and run.
Umhum. Okay. So you had made it to captain and you were in the MP still. And you were the XO of the commander --
Of the post.
-- of the post at Fort Meade still.
Umhum, umhum.
So did you stay in the MPs for much longer or --
It was -- it was at that time that I realized now by being the XO, getting more advice, how the Army worked or whatever, that I put into what they call branch transfer now from the MPs to something else that's more -- more suited to me, because I don't want to go fight no wars and crawl in no hills and do none of that stuff they want me to do. Shoot guns. I didn't sign up for that. So I tried to branch transfer to Adjutant General's Corps and was denied. Probably, again, because they said, Well, now they want to -- now they're ready to champion me now. You know, they keep me in the MP Corps. You dug me out, but now it's time for us to, you know -- you know, to ride your coattail. So I was denied that. But just after that time, that something came in the Army where we started trying to specialize in a second specialty, if you will, in the armed law enforcement.
Cross-training.
Yeah. Yeah, that's when I chose contracting acquisition. I chose that, because, again, I realized had I chose strictly logistics, even though I wouldn't be in MP Corps, I still as a logistics officer can still go be deployed in the same kinds of unit somewhere. So again, now I'm recognizing, This ain't what I want to do. You know, I want to -- you know, the Army has other things to do. That ain't me. Let somebody else go do that. Let me try and fit in somewhere else. So I chose the Acquisition Corps about my eighth -- seventh, eighth-year service and --
Finally getting a clue that's what you wanted --
Umhum. And that's when the Army started changing the rules that says, you know, You have to have an alternate, and you get to go -- you know, sort of like stay in the alternate rather than back and forth now once you've got your, you know, corps training. And that's kind of like what happened with me. I just, again, was in the right place at the right time when that career field started.
Umhum.
And based upon where I had been as a captain -- again, you know, I still was a captain there when I first went to Adelphi, Maryland. When I first got this next specialty now, now I've gone through the advanced MP school even though they cheated there, you know, about ranks and whatever. You know, again -- but I went there, and I started doing acquisition work right there at Adelphi, Maryland. I was a captain. That's when I made major while I was there.
Umhum.
So the __+ rank is from captain to major.
Umhum.
Almost like seven years. You made captain quick, but you stayed a doggone captain to major for the longest. That's the real, I guess, kind of like filling --
Is that usual for --
Yeah.
-- that ranking.
Umhum, yeah.
You had to be a captain for a long time.
Go from __+ grade to field grade.
Umhum.
Meaning the Army has now basically made major any service -- now they have vested in you, meaning, you know --
Yeah.
Right, right.
Okay.
Yeah.
So the acquisition stuff you were doing, was that more paperwork or working with contracts --
To me it's more tangible, more real, more what it was relate -- I could relate more to than them trying to figure out, There's a tank over the hill and we need to shoot and how many people we need to -- you know, I couldn't relate to something that wasn't real like that.
Umhum.
I didn't have that instinct versus this was real stuff, which you really do, like I was doing in the MP battalion. You know, doing things. We've got to have a display here. This is where it is. Who do you call to get it to coordinate it? Put it -- it was real, something tangible.
Umhum.
And that's what I liked about it. Seeing a result.
Is that what you stayed with the rest of the time.
Right, pretty much. That's what they said. But then I got -- I got chosen to go to the higher-level courses or -- by then I -- by then I've learned -- I've learned how it is what you're supposed to do. Try and dot the Is, cross the Ts. You know, do whatever they say to do. So there shouldn't be any issue. Like I said, it was a godsend that I ran into some people at the same time who saw my potential. I probably wouldn't have made major, but weighed in on my behalf, and I -- the first time around I got passed over. And I was like -- you know, again, like, the heck with them, because by now I know I've done everything they've said, and they still don't want to do it. I went to school. I got my degree. I did -- you know, I did it all, but -- so the next year I got -- I made it.
Umhum.
And so I was in -- pretty much doing acquisition stuff then at higher levels and started to see a lot then. That's when I went to IG school for the Army. I was on the Army IG. I got --
Inspector general, that's --
Umhum, inspector general.
I always think of that as being attorneys, but that's more than --
Right. Inspector general period is -- every organization by law has to have an inspector general. Everybody in it is not attorneys.
Umhum.
But --
But y'all the ones like the internal --
The one doing inquiries and investigations and whatever on behalf of the commander and combat --
In a weird way that's what I would think of the MPs doing.
Right. See now -- see now -- right. Now I'm finding my -- I'm finding my fit a little bit more.
Yes. You finally got your niche.
Yeah. However, I still wasn't strictly an inspector, I was -- I mean, investigator. I was on the inspection side of the house, so we would do -- go all over the Army doing what we call systemic inspections. And again, maybe, again, these skills or gifts I have keep coming together. How we would go out and do something, I don't know how it is, but come back, being dogged out, but somehow we'd get the right report and whatever. And when I had briefed -- and we're briefing two and three-star generals, and however I represented myself out there. Again, here's __+ from commander saw some gift I had --
Umhum.
-- and latched onto me more so than me maybe latching onto myself. And that's -- looked like that's -- whenever somebody tried to bury me, looks like someone would always rescue me.
So did you find over time that the prejudice faded --
No.
-- that you were dealing with? It just took different forms.
Yeah. Yeah.
So it's still there right now.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. As a matter of fact, I was mostly disappointed then when I think now, man, the Army even -- you know, make a lieutenant colonel and all this. And I had a -- out of the blue, I'm in career, and I got into this situation where I was being -- I was selected and went through the process of a political appointee for a cabinet-level department and got all the way to being a designate. And that's when I realized how people could be so -- the politics, I never wanted to participate. But okay, now if you've got all these gifts and skills -- I still have this issue, because I don't understand how -- because people __+ reason. But anyways, I decided, Well, wait a minute, this is real. You know, it's about to happen. You know, deal with it. And I was looking forward to it, recognizing, you know, I'm a mitigator. You know, try and keep the peace, if you will, among everybody. And how I was just -- you know, all of a sudden they used the Army, and the Army did it to me. Like I say, just to -- just to put -- I felt like they put me out there like a prostitute and left me hanging over nothing about -- when I came __+ from Korea for the confirmation, all this, I did -- like I did something wrong with my traveling bag and all that, you know, that kind of -- and I was like, Hey, I'm an IG. This ain't gonna be a problem. I know how this works. I haven't done nothing wrong. I was so crushed. I was so crushed with the Army and even the department. You know, I was just like left out there, even with my own career like I did something wrong. I was devastated and I went into really -- didn't give a shit for a while. I just wanted -- just -- I just give up.
It's hard to get over that kind of thing.
Yep. And pretty much that's the way it was, whatever. I finally got out. That was around 1994 that that happened, and after that I got out in '98, but I just -- I didn't care anymore.
So let's backtrack a little bit. When the Persian Gulf War hit, where were you --
I was at the Pentagon as an IG.
So was --
I was never in the units that deployed.
Yeah. Did your -- did your job ever get affected by what was going on with the war.
Yeah. Sure, in different kind of capacities. Like, for instance, when people __+ commit suicide throughout the Army, the Army needs to look at it and see what's going on. When -- maybe there's some issue about logistics or what the troops need or don't need. Things that are affecting the Army across the board we would go take a look at. I did one combat on terrorism when I was a young MP or whatever on that and it went across the Army, looked it __+ way before we were even talking about this stuff now. Sometimes I think about all that now and how we would have these focus groups and whatever. You are talking and whatever. You know, you always had a good rapport with the people, most people I met. It's just that usually there's always someone around me in the capacity of leadership you hear that just have a problem, whatever. I know it's not my problem. And I guess I'm always wanting to bridge it if I can, but sometimes you just can't.
Umhum.
Yeah.
So all your work during that time period at the war was here --
In the Pentagon.
In the Pentagon. So you never had to travel there to do any work.
Nah, I never had to go there. There were other people that I know that did that's contracting types, but where I was assigned saved me.
Umhum.
Depending upon what unit you were in that you may have had to go, but I was in the IG office. We didn't have -- we didn't have a deployment mission --
Umhum.
-- if you will.
Well, nowadays, if I'm understanding correctly what your job is, you keep hearing about these bad stories even now in Iraq where the soldiers don't have the equipment they need.
Umhum.
Is that the kind of thing you would be looking into.
Yes, somebody would be charged with that. And that's what tells me -- you know, that's why I feel so whatever, because I feel like they're not even trying to do their job right and support the troops right. We didn't even have all those reserves __+ doing it right away. They don't __+ training or whatever, been floating around for years and had to do this for real. And I was like, I cringe every -- (Loss of audio recording.)
I was telling you I was a commander of this unit at Fort Meade where we did the ceremonies for the 4th of July, whatever it is, right.
Umhum.
So we had the 4th of July ceremony and -- where we had the 50-gun salute. I had the unit who had these cannons, you know, to do this. And these little troops, they from -- they, whatever, MOS. It's not our job, but this is what we do in a battalion. We were the 22nd Prisoner of War Information Center Unit, which, quote, there were no prisoners of war now or whatever. They would look into trying to write up something to put it into the record from long time ago and get our act -- or whatever, but it was just -- whatever. Anyways, my little troops were from all kinds of walks of life. I usually called them, you know, the little bastard kind of kids, but anyways, we still did well. You know, we did well. I grew with them and they grew with me. But anyways, we had this 4th of July ceremony. __ is a standing job. You know, 50-gun salute. You know how these cannons, got one, got to go boom, get rid of the next one, boom, boom, and --
Takes coordination.
Oh, yeah. There's something about making sure, you know, that they go off all right. But anyway, the thing went off fine, boom, boom, boom. So I'm, you know, leaving the site and everybody is leaving the site. All I heard -- all of a sudden I heard something go boom. I turned. Next thing I know, the post commander come in. What the heck was that? One of my troops went up, when they were, you know, retrieving the cannons to put them up and pulled the lanyard. They always reload the cannons just in case one misfires.
Umhum.
But he just pulled it. And my battalion commander wanted me to give this guy an Article 15, and I just -- for what, stupidity? I -- you know, I mean, what does that achieve, you know? I had those kinds of kids. They're always doing something wrong, getting in trouble, getting me in trouble. And I just hated being in that role of having to oversee somebody. I call it like baby-sitting or whatever. Just a dumb thing, but they did a lot of dumb things too. Murphy's Law is good.
Yes, that's why I do the double-checking kind of thing.
Yeah. It happens. It happens.
Umhum.
Umhum.
Okay. Let's think a little bit more. We worked through the Persian Gulf. So you really did feel like the job you were doing was a really important one.
Oh, yeah. The IG was one of the most important ones, because like I saw -- I saw what our role was, I shouldn't be -- and that you can impact things very, very quickly, if in fact they __+ really want you to impact them.
Okay. Now, over time you've spoken a bit about the pressures you dealt with as an African American. Did you find that the fact that you were female --
Oh, yeah --
-- had a whole different effect.
Yeah. Sometimes even as a black male, you feel like -- you know, you had it different than they did, and you feel like, How could I? At least you're a guy. You know, you're all too guys. You all can relate there, you know. You don't want me to have an umbrella. You want me to try to be a guy. I can't change.
Umhum.
You know, that's the Army's rules. Don't make me, you know, pay for it.
Umhum.
But I had a prejudice all the time about that.
So with all that that you had to deal with, did you feel like the Army treated you well? I mean, you stayed in it 25 years.
In some ways I did -- I told you about the learning --
Yeah.
-- and the opportunities and the growing. That did me well, yeah. And that's why I was supposed to be __+ or else I wouldn't have been there. But nonetheless, the prejudice never stopped.
Umhum.
Not from some people, which it never will.
Umhum. Yeah. Well, some people are just stuck in a rut --
Umhum.
-- in their brains.
Yeah.
So do you feel like what you did has benefited those who are coming into it now? Are they still having to deal with as much prejudice or --
It's so removed now and it got so much larger and it came -- became -- of course, the ones that I could help along the way I was always there for, but, you know, it started getting much more larger, much more women, much more common, much more -- things kind of changed.
Umhum.
But for those of us who are the -- even the ones that -- you know, kind of like what -- before me were just females. You know, there were female officers and they just had to be __. I was one of the first groups who had to start trying to interact and integrate us with the male programs, so maybe that's why I had it even worse.
So it's -- it's still there, but --
Yeah, the women, you know --
-- you didn't think you could do it.
Yeah. Women, you know, y'all disappointed about women, you know. This is a man's Army. You know what? Yeah, that kind of thing. And then as a commander, hell, now you've got to -- you got to work for me.
Got to do what you say.
Yeah. That was hard for some of them, you know --
Umhum.
-- at first, you know, but you learn to earn their respect and vice versa.
Umhum.
But yeah, it's there.
Umhum. Yeah, I mean --
Even the essential stuff sometimes, you say yeah __+. All of that, you know, you had to -- had to maneuver your way.
Umhum. Yeah, you hear about the real overt sexual harassment.
Umhum.
There's a lot of subtle stuff going on.
Oh, yeah. All the time.
Umhum.
All the time.
Yeah. Wow. I'm glad I didn't have to do that.
Yeah.
So nowadays with women trying to get into combat positions --
I don't know, bless their heart.
I take it that was not ever something that attracted you.
No. I never wanted to, no, be out there and put myself in harm's way and wanting to be leading somebody. No, that wasn't -- no, I wasn't like one of the cadets for the Citadel or whatever, wanting to get in, and once you got in, was out of shape, whatever.
Umhum, yeah.
It was never so much as like that. But it was more like maybe growing up where, you know, you couldn't go do some of the fun things the guys got to do. You know, they got to go shoot the basketball or they got to -- you know, BB guns or marbles. You know, do something. To me they wanted me to go play with this doll that I couldn't identify with because it didn't do nothing. You know, it wasn't fun for me. So then by being adventurous, wanting to do just things -- and I came along. At that time it was like my dad then, you know, Women do this, men do that, so...
Excuse me.
So then coming in the Army at least gave me a chance to, you know -- yeah, I'm a woman, you're a man. That ain't gonna change. Can we move on, you know.
So once you got out of the Army, do you feel like the skills you learned there really have benefited you __+.
Oh, heck, yes. Oh, yes. Even like -- yes, tremendously.
What particular things do you feel were the skills you learned there that you are using now.
Well, I'm -- I'm -- I'm -- I'm good at kind of right -- I understand layers. I understand systems. I understand how things kind of generally are laid out across the board by having that broad perspective at the Army level and stuff like that.
Umhum.
How -- how external influences or versus internal -- you know, just understanding that kind of role. Understanding how to kind of be given something, kind of like what you need to do, you need to talk to, who you need to involve or try to involve or -- given a true mission. I get into it and can do it. I just always don't do well with these here informal -- you know, try to dialogue and deal with -- you don't know what's in their head and you're trying to figure it out. They think you can figure it out or whatever.
Umhum.
I don't do well with those cases, but anybody else who embrace __+ have a great relationship.
Umhum. Is there anything you miss about being in the Army.
Nope.
Well, that's pretty certain.
Nope. Uh-uh. I haven't done anything. I was like, I'm tired of them telling me how much to eat, how much to weigh, know where to run, know where to -- go here, do this. No, I don't miss that at all.
Okay.
It took me a while, I think, to de --
Deprogram yourself.
Umhum.
Yeah, well --
That's why __+ --
-- if you were there for 25 years, it's gonna affect you.
Yeah. Yeah. And emotionally I think the Army was a safeguard, because it's like, What's emotion got to do with it? Hey, we've got to move on. And I think when you got out, you start realizing that you are -- you do feel emotional. But that military suited me well. I'm glad. I hated emotional stuff sometimes.
Well, that kind of leads me to my next question, which is: I mean, are you married? Did you --
I was married for a short time.
Umhum.
Mistake.
Umhum. Did you feel like what the job you were doing or the fact that you were an officer in the Army --
__+ oh, finding a man or somebody that could accept you and let you be you and you be them or whatever without all the other baggage, I never was able to really find that.
Umhum. So it was just being --
What I did is somebody married --
Just being a person that excelled made it difficult.
Even in high school, even my boyfriend, he's the main reason I came into the military. Because, you know, at one time he had gone and done this __+, let's get together. And I think he said something to me one day about -- you know, about the military or whatever. I called the people and said, Sign me up. I did. So it's all his fault. It's all his fault, yeah. But he was the same way. And I guess I'd seen too much of that growing up where they want to put you in a role as a woman versus as a person. And I needed someone to do different for me. If you didn't, then I didn't want to just get married for the hell of it.
Umhum.
I always wanted a kid and family and all that good stuff, but maybe now God knows best -- knew better when I took my two nieces to Korea to live with me. Yeah, I see that's an awesome job, raising kids.
Yeah, it is. Not one I've had to face.
Yeah.
Boy, makes you nervous.
Yep. Yep.
Hey, you're an aunt, that means you can have a --
Oh, yeah, I'm an aunt. __+ my Godson. Same one __+ his uncle, the one that ended up in the Army. He and I have a great relationship.
Oh, great.
He's 29 years old. He's just like my kid and, you know, whatever. I always said, You're here for the other kids.
Umhum.
I don't need to go out and adopt nothing. Got enough right in the family. My brother's got kids thrown everywhere. Never related to him. Don't even try, so...
Umhum.
There's enough to do.
Okay. Well, I'm kind of running out of questions.
Okay.
But if you have any -- any special funny stories or good stories that you might want to share? Any good ones? Anything that you just always remember --
Okay.
-- when you think about the Army.
Okay. Yeah, I do. When I was in the -- in the MP -- not -- no, I was still at Fort Meade, and we was -- now I was put on guard duty. Now finally I get somewhere, but I hadn't really done no MP stuff right before I had been here, right.
Umhum.
But now I'm going to Fort Meade. So I'm the guard -- duty officer of the day. So you know how the troops line up for you to do an inspection? So I walk up there. I mean, I had been in an inspection, but not quite like this. But anyway, I walked to the first guy, he jacked the rifle, I jumped __+. Scared the shit out of me. That's my funniest one. That thing scared the crap out of me. So I tried to pull myself together, go down the line like I knew it was going to go on. I will always remember that. I was like, Oh, I know they __+ dying.
And they couldn't show a thing, could they.
Yeah, right, right. It's like, Oh, my God. I will never forget that.
Oh, my. Yeah, that's one of those things that always sticks with you.
Yeah. It's like, Oh, my gosh, I __+. You know, you walk up to them and you turn and go {sound effect}. So I had been inspecting people, but I never had anybody with a gun to do it. I had to laugh. I just had to laugh. So that was one --
The best of __+, huh, holding it back.
Yeah, that was -- that was -- I call that, I learned from the School of Hard Knocks, really. Like I said, I really didn't know about the shoot __+ just right. I learned the ranks. I did.
I believe you. I believe you.
I didn't know, but __+.
Almost nobody going in nowadays, I would think, knows the ranks. I mean...
Well, everybody -- some people -- most people coming in as an officer understood what they were getting into it.
Yeah.
They at least understood they were enlisted. There's this, there's that. You know, I -- hell, __+ back to Georgia.
Yeah, getting into the commission thing, yeah, that probably was very strange.
But that's the way it was meant to be. Like I said, it was a pretty good ending. Like I said, I even -- that picture with Dr. Height (ph), I -- during that period where I was like all down and not -- just ready to get out of the Army, I got involved with their program for the Washington Middle School For Girls which is an __. Again, I can just see -- just grew, it took a flight of its -- a life of its own.
Umhum.
And anyways, that's how I ended up with that picture with her. I have a -- I have a -- shaking hands with Clinton, Ford. I've had -- in between I've had a chance to do some -- be in some really, really forms that were, like I said, a godsend. Even the political appointment, like the city things I got to attend and do and all that in between were very, very rewarding that I will never -- never forget.
So the Army really offered you opportunities.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. It offered me opportunities. Oh, yeah. It prepared me. I got to do a lot. I learned a lot.
Umhum. So in the long run, you don't regret what you did.
Oh, no. No, no.
That's good.
No. No, not at all. No. I needed it. I was a wild kid.
Okay. Well, thank you so much.
And what -- how can I get this stuff to you? Do you want me to give you the resume and stuff?
Yeah, if you can give it to me now, that would be great. [End of recording.]