Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with Miriam Ben-Shalom was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling.
Okay, My name is Steve Estes. It's November 12, 2004 and I'm in San Francisco, California and today I'm interviewing.
Miriam Ben-Shalom. It's November 12, 2004 and I'm in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
Excellent. The first question is a little bit of review and that is when and where were you born?
I was born in Waukesha, Wisconsin - May 3, 1948.
Okay, What did your parents do?
My mother was probably a housewife. She was killed in an automobile accident. When I was six, she was a drunk driver. And my father had different professions, but when I was born, he had his own business called "Johnny's Trading Post" which - which was a really nice forerunner of - so-called convenience stores today. He carried liquor, beer, milk - various types of foods and he also carried sporting goods like aluminum boats - uh - guns, fly rods - rods 'n reels for fishing and stuff like that which was located in East Troy, Michigan. Historical note for you: what does East Troy have of note in for gay history - uh - besides me? Ah - if you take a look - you might find that -I think her name is Nickerson - Nicholson - [speaker pauses] I'm really tired this morning.
That's okay.
The A - partner of - not, not, not Beth Truman - oh stop - the president's wife, not very . . .
Eleanor Roosevelt
Eleanor Roosevelt came from there . . .
Oh, Okay . . .] There we go - thank you . . .
no problem . . . ] I'm drinking coffee, even as we speak.
Yeah - Okay, what was it like growing up? Did you grow up in Waukesha?
No, I grew up in Big Bend first, then in East Troy.
Okay, What was it like growing up in those places?
These are small Wisconsin towns and -I would say that growing - they're very rural. And I grew up - as growing up - okay, we were talking about sexuality though. I grew up well -I learned to swim before I could walk - my father took me hunting -I grew up appreciating nature -I - and I could - I'd -I mean I saw Great Blue Herons and Urmans and Fox when I was young -I think I started growing up very well - after my mother was killed, it got a little more difficult - when my father remarried thereafter - and I am speaking for myself only - it was not so good.
Did you stay in Wisconsin to - you went through high school there ?
Well, yeah. I have a Master's degree.
Where did you go to college?
University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee for my B.A., Cum Laude and my Master's degree. But I started my education at Milwaukee Technical College -I was gonna be a graphic artist at the time.
A-a-ah - Okay -I don't mean to jump straight into military service -but you served in the Israeli Army first, right?
I choose not to talk about that for this interview.
Okay, that's fine. - and I should say - that you can say that for any question that I ask - Okay? -I mean, obviously you know that - yeah - okay, so, you, your first service in the U.S. Army reserves was in 1974. Is that correct?
That's correct.
Okay. Can you talk about why you decided to join the U.S. Army reserve?
Well, Actually, my father was a World War Two veteran. He served in the Pacific Theatre - and - and that's - that's the end, near the end, near the end of the Vietnam era, if you - if you notice the dates. And I really didn't have the animosity towards the military that so many people my age - had. And, actually, I was -well my Bachelor's degree was in Hebrew Studies as well as English. I was going be a Rabbi. And -I actually was thinking of looking for a career okay? -I thought maybe being a Chaplain . . .
A-ah, yeah.
You understand? Cause I went in - my initial MOS was that of Chaplain's Assistant. And people used to kid me later on when I became a Drill Sergeant. And said - Chaplain's Assistant, Sergeant oh, you must be the Drill Sergeant for people, people who don't have a prayer. It was really funny.
Okay.
So, when I went in, I was actually looking for a career.
Had you given up on being a civilian Rabbi, or was this . . .
No - not really. It's, it's, it's just -I thought the Army would be interesting - it wasn't like "Oh yes, I think I'll do this and I'll do more than twenty years." It wasn't quite that, but -I was interested because I thought, "Well this would be cool. Now I can be a Chaplain" - it was, it was an option that I was considering.
Do you have siblings?
Yeah, I have three brothers and two sisters.
Did any of them serve? [inaudible]
Um - um. Nah, Nah. It wasn't their make up - No.
Well, I went in under the Civilian Acquired Skills Program. A-a-n-d so it was very interesting - they, they did, they gave you some credit for - like for your education - basic training, I understand. All of the silliness - b-u-t - this is -I mean, this - when I went in, it was still the Women's army Corps, You know? So [speaker pauses - coffee cup with other noises] I mean I understand - Sergeant, so I certainly understand what they were trying to do. But I thought a lot of it was pretty stupid as well. It's like - you don't need to learn to march in rows to learn to deal with combat or whatever - but I went through it and I did what was asked of me, cause I wanted to serve. I have pictures - it was interesting - being in a [?] One thing that I can tell you from basic training that was kind of funny - there were two of us who were Jewish - and-d the other woman was the child of Holocaust survivors - okay? - and she really had fear of the gas chamber [hesitating] it should - be evident - why. [SE: Right [laughing] obviously] Okay? So, like she, she admitted to do everything in basic but to get through the gas chamber - she was, like, she was like "I can't do it, I can't do it, I can't do it." So -I don't have a morbid sense of Shielda, but I do have one. So, I said there, "Okay, if you're really unafraid of it, here's a towel, here's a bar of soap. We'll report as two Jews reporting for gas chamber duty which is really ghoulish - but she started laughing, and in fact, that's what we did [sink noises] We each walked up with a towel and a bar of soap and said, "Two Jews reporting for gas chamber duty."
So just the humor kind of cut through the fear, the psychology?
So that's, so that's something that I could tell you about because I think it is very interesting - and we did it.
I wanted - Oh go ahead . ..
What's interesting is years later I ran into the Lieutenant who was - at that, now a major - and she said that she used to tell that story about what we did all the time.
[laughing] Well those are good stories. The kind of - camaraderie that helps people get through basic training in general but in this case, there's obviously a special need for it. Um - when you got out of basic training, you went to AIT - right?
Yeah. To be a Chaplain's Assistant and then, I report to my unit, and then it changed the Women's Army Corps, the WACS weren't anymore. The Army became integrated - and one of the things they did offer was the opportunity for women to become Drill Sergeants. - A-a-and, because there weren't a lot of women around, they were really encouraging, and I had all the encouragement I ever needed, so I decide to do it.
Do you think that your personality is well suited to being a Drill Sergeant?
Yes and no -I don't think cussing and swearing at somebody is the way to prepare them for combat, - and I've never understood why to be abusive - prepares somebody that way. I mean certainly I can cuss a storm up as - as best as anybody. But my style of being a Drill Sergeant, or DSL actually, Drill Sergeant Leader, -- I was really actually very good at what I did, so I trained other people how to be Drill Sergeants. Was not to cuss and not to yell but to do what I asked my people to do right, right along side them. A-a-a-nd it worked -I - the only other thing that I can tell you is that at one point in time I did have one person who didn't want to take orders form no-no - lady. Begin quote, end quote. His words, not mine. And after I knocked him down a couple times in Pugot stick pit, he didn't have any problems with taking orders from me. And I could have given him an article 15-I could have gigged him. But -I -I used it as a teaching lesson saying what does this teach you? Never, ever make assumptions about your opponents. When you're in combat, don't think because it's a female or child, that there isn't anything there. And so I don't - look what we're in right now? - Suicide bombers et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So, I would say that was a good teaching lesson.
Was that the only friction, because - that you experienced because of the integration, women and men?
Um - actually, actually, yeah.
So -- it went pretty smoothly actually.
Yeah. I mean, I - maybe was lucky. I mean I had -I had other guys make remarks and it was like - excuse me, what'd you say? - What makes you say that? - Right, but - you know, you know. See my rank? Um - you, you will stand at attention, right now. And I wanna - what was your opinion? You know. And it, and it, and, it's like - an interesting opinion. Nut it sure as hell wasn't with you. It's all that sort of stuff. And it, and it, and, it's like - just doing it the military way. And not allowing assholes to get under my skin - worked really well.
[cough] excuse me - what inspired you to become an activist?
My sense of justice - anger - In 1975 Leonard Matlovich was on the cover of Time magazine and I read the article and it didn't make any sense to me - An I, an I, I asked them, "Why are they kicking him out?" "Well, he's a fag." I said, "Yeah, but he won a silver star. Who cares? - What difference does it make?" A-and I guess I asked one too many questions, because I got called in my commander's office and it was, "Sergeant Ben-Shalom, are you a homosexual?" And - remember, teacher here, 'homosexual' is an adjective. And I'm a noun - But I know what he meant, so that's what began the whole preceding, because I refused to lie.
[sighing] And how did people - in your unit respond to that once you had refused to lie?
They were standoffish - At first - and it went fairly quickly, for the discharge. So there wasn't a whole lot of time. And I think - 1974 - it, it was a time of transition. So you were dealing with a lot of Vietnam era veterans who were probably pretty conservative - and who - really didn't understand what the problem was.
Now you got an honorable discharge, that's - is that right? [MB: Yeah.] Is -I think a lot of people were getting general discharges, or less - at least less than honorable discharges when they came out, or when it was found out that they were gay. Do you have any sense of why you got an honorable discharge?
Because I never engaged in any misconduct, and because there was a whole lot of press around. - And people were talking, so I think the Army was forced to look at my service record and say, "Yeah, she didn't bother anybody." As a matter of fact in the, in the court transcript - if you, if you take a look at - Ben-Shalom v. Secretary of Defense - the Army says in thus words, "She did not ogle, eye-ip, or even stare at any female personnel." -- Oggle, eye-up -I mean, and that's the actual words they used - cause -I think the problem with it was is - is that they actually thought that -like - homosexuals - which is such a lousy word, because it implies that that's all we are is our sexuality. - It's like, that's all we want to do - pardon me - but fuck around? -okay? - And, nobody joins the military for a date. - And -I think, in my case, it was really obvious that what I really wanted to do was soldier, but I - I'm not going to lie.
Which is-Against the military code of justice, too. Lying, right? So.
Well, yeah. And I mean later on -I kept - people kept coming in "Sergeant Ben-Shalom, are you still a homosexual?" - it's like - is there a choice?
[laughing] One of the things I was going to ask is, "Did your Judaism affect you're activism. And, if so, can you talk about that a little bit?
Yes, absolutely, [speaker pauses] It's, it's, it's not hard to explain, but it might be hard for somebody - who doesn't know a lot about Shoah, the Holocaust, Shoah - S-H-O-A-H. I, I, I don't say that I'm a great Holocaust scholar, but I am one nonetheless. And I -I have written a high school course - using the internet entirely on the Shoah. - And linking it to - like Zimbabwe, A-a-and Bosnia, Herzogovina, and some - some of the other genocides that are occurring nowdays. -And one of the things that ate at me - when I was thinking should I fight this? Should I not fight this? - Should I just shut up? And whatever. What is the fact that six million of my people didn't have a choice? - But when the world should've been paying attention, it ignored 'em because they were Jewish. And so - they ended up in Auschwitz and Treblinka and Dachau and Sobibor. - And very strongly I felt their presence as if - we didn't have a choice, all we had was silence - you have a choice. How dare you engage in silence. -I also felt it very strongly in terms of just general injustice -I understand my people's history - and I, I don't like injustice. And I don't like it that, that people are judged by whom they love. - And, and. I mean that's pretty stupid if you ask me. And so, very much influence that also - the Rabbis have a saying, "If I am not for myself, then who am I for?" and "If not now, when?" And honestly - as a Jew, I don't think that I have anything to be ashamed of; and as a lesbian, I don't think I have anything to be ashamed of. - Torah obliges us to deal with injustice and so while there are probably some Jews who feel very uncomfortable with what I did, I mean -I - they did indeed -as a matter of fact are - you - now we're all gunna think we're terrible. - It was the old ghetto mentality - if one of you - rocks the boat, or whatever, then - we're all gunna be in a rocking boat. But I always felt I was - ah - abiding by, by Torah, whole and complete when I took on this fight. - Torah doesn't teach us to shut up and step aside -and, and turn our eyes away. Torah obliges us to deal with injustice and to fight it. - If not, then why were there so many Jewish people involved in the Civil Rights [inaudible]. It is integral to my culture, to fight injustice.
And one of the things I had asked you before we had turned on the tape is, speaking of the Civil Rights struggle, was there any influence on you from - the legacies of the Black struggle?
A-a-absolutely. - It, it - it is, it is perceived because -- I, I — okay - growing up in a small Wisconsin town, I never saw Black people. - Okay? -I saw Mexican field workers and my father thought they were fine. - My father did not like Black people very much. And so I, I can't say that I was raised to be racist, but I can say that I was raised with suttle racist ideology - and imagine my surprise when I finally got in to Milwaukee and actually saw a Black person and come to find out that my, my father's portrayal of them wasn't exactly accurate. And so in the process of- trying to eliminate from my mind [inaudible] some of the ideas that were placed there as I was growing up -I learned about the Civil Rights Movement, and it, it literally translated to what I was doing because -I - rightly or wrongly - and I, I, I think correctly saw that, that - if injustice occurs against one group, them injustice occurs against us all. And that - society doesn't work this way, as in, well, we'll keep the gays in the closet and, and -make them second class citizens, but everybody else is going to be okay. - When the ax starts falling, it just doesn't stop. - okay? - It keeps falling. - And I think I was moved by - the Civil Rights Movement in terms of the commitment in - a -- the heroism that I saw - and - okay - that sounds peculiar -I don't want you to think that I thought I was gunna be a hero - but I thought if these people can stand up and risk all, - perhaps I should too. -I never wanted fame, I never wanted heroism -I, I, I did -I don't need it, it didn't need it, I don't want it, - it, it's not important to me, that I stood up and did the best that I could to assist the largest number of people is what it's about. Do you understand what I am saying?
Yeah. I definitely do. I was wondering if you could talk a little bit ah -before we turned on the tape, we were talking about how a lot of scholars of - the gays in the military issue focus on men, and I was wondering if you could talk about things that you think are unique for lesbians in the military - problems that are unique . . . [MB: Sure.] your community . .. [MB: Sure.] Could you say a little bit about that?
Yeah - Okay. First and foremost, I think - feminism did not help lesbians in the military because early feminism was really homophobic. I can recall speaking in 1989 at Gay Pride down in Chicago. -I did not come to talk about the military; I came to talk about HIV - because I was taking care of a friend of eighteen years who was dying. - And, up on top of the hill, there were a bunch of scurry -[hesitating] scruffy, scabarous - [sighing] [pause] perverse, illkept, illmet women separatists who were saying, "no more G.I. Janes, no more G.I. Janes. You're a baby killer." And my response was, "When the revolution comes, who's going to lead it? [interviewer laughing] Okay? - So there was pressure from without and pressure from within, not to say anything at that time. - The military is very peculiar because - women have often times been viewed as part of the - equipment that gets given out to men. -[interviewer sighs] And, so - you're either a whore or you're a dyke, if you're in the military. - There's a place called 'Minervision' - dot - dot - AOL dot-com - at AOL dot com. - Doctor Linda Grant Depaul, Professor Emeritus of History at GW University, who's out in Pasedena, Maryland, has done a lot of research. And over the years -I be -I go on this history serve, this list serve a lot. And it's, it, it, it's, it's a continuing thing -you're either a dyke or you're a whore. -I mean the incidents of rapes and sexual abuse -for example, Desert Shield/ Desert Storm - and even more so in, in this Iraqi War - is -is really rather shocking, and you would think that women would have the ability to report it, but in fact, the military doesn't even support them, and there is no -I mean, you can go and talk to your CO, but your CO is likely to call you a trouble maker. - So it, it, it's very interesting. Women, still at this time - bear the brunt of discharges - because if they don't put out, - ah, or they don't give in to, to forced sexual coercion, the first thing that's asserted, "Oh fine, you're a dyke." - Okay? So I think it's very hard for military women - perhaps more so than with men because they have the double pressure of having to deal with sexual harassment and, and also trying to, to balance their military career. And I think it's hard for military women both straight as well as gay, because they, they labor under this - whereas, I mean, look at tail hook - the woman who was sexually assaulted and she went and fought it, I mean, she was just shredded. - And I mean it hasn't stopped. - You -I hear - when I go on, on - the histoiy list that I belong to, it's like right now it's a big topic of discussion the number of rapes that have occurred. - And, and the fact that women aren't reporting them because they are afraid. There is no support system for 'em. Just look at what happened at the Air Force Academy. - A woman was kicked out because she reported a sexual assault, and all the -all the men -I don't know what they call Air Force Cadets - "Fly Boys?" - That, that's a joke. [SE: Right [laughing] I gotcha -I know . . .] It's like, they got together and lied about her. And - and it, and she fought back for years. And she was finally reinstated -and given the right to graduate and get her degree. -But the Air Force lost her because of how she was treated. And, I think - it's very interesting, that you would think that in 2004 this sort of bullshit wouldn't occur, but it does. And, I mean, you, you are not only considering having women in combat which - I'm sorry -I think it's a good idea. You may disagree with me, you may not. But if we want equality in society, we should be willing to accept equal responsibility. And you have fools coming back with the same-old, "women can't handle it physically, they can't do this, they can't do that." Let me tell you something, son: any woman that can carry fifteen to thirty pounds around her waist 24/7 for nine months can handle it. [interviewer laughs] Any person that can pass something the size of a rather large bowling ball [interviewer laughs] through a very small canal, and get up in three days and continue living because that's all the ho-- the, the health, health - ah, and the HMOS will let her stay in, can handle combat. Any woman that can walk down a beam that's about - oh four inches wide - jump up in the air, flip backwards, and land on the beam, and stand upright, can handle the rigors of combat. - Okay? Not every man is fit for combat either. And what I'm saying is, I find it, however, ironic that - because for this George Bush's bloody little fiasco in Iraq, there aren't enough soldiers. So, oh, now were gunna go let women, get into combat.
Alright. Well that has always been the case, whenever there is a -when this case - the, the term is ironic, but whenever there's a manpower shortage - then they, that's when they let people - who haven't been able to fight before fight...
And, I mean, I find it ironic in terms of a stop-loss policy, because there are gays - who are being prepared to be discharged so stop-loss keeps them in. And if you take a look at Perry Watkin's court case, it was equitable to 'Stop-L.' -When he went in, they needed his body for cannon fodder, for Vietnam, they knew he was gay. - Okay? Alright? After Vietnam was over, a couple years passed, and then it was like, "Oh, my, we just remembered that you're gay. We're [interviewer laughing] going to kick you out. And the judge said - in essence, in layman's terms, no. Just because it's become convenient for you, doesn't mean you can kick him out. - You know it before, you've known it all along, and just now it's convenient for you to remove him. No, equitable Stop-Loss. You can't do that. And I would say, that all those people that are being held in under the stop-loss policy, certainly have more than a fair fighting chance to win an equitable Stop-Loss case against whatever branch of the military they're in and against the government.
When - let me - back up a little bit - cause one of the things you were talking about is - the support system that women have or sometimes don't have in the military. I was wondering when you - when your case was - working its way through the courts, did you - find or get a support system of other folks in the military, or people in the lesbian community?
Nope. Nobody in the military, but it was my brothers. - But male, gay veterans - [pause] who understood what I was trying to do. - The women didn't even really care -I owe absolutely nothing to feminism, and I owe nothing to any national organization whatsoever. - It was - my gay brothers - who understood, veterans, and [inaudible] one of the - they are one of the reasons why I went on, after I was finally lost, and the Supreme Court refused to hear my case is why I went and found a G-L-D-V-A and worked so hard - but in actuality, I know there wasn't much of a support system at all. It was individuals here and there. But - the national organizations [inaudible] were much better engaging in mental masturbation than they were in dealing with real - real world problems and real world court cases. I mean, witness, recently, th-, th- - this silliness about gay marriage - they - after all those years, they haven't changed from beltway politics. They have no idea what that vast space of lad and vast number of population between the slim-line, on the west coast, wants and believes in. - They have no idea. - They actually had someone in Washington, D.C. - "Oh, you're in Wisconsin -Oh, well you could go have lunch in Minneapolis - St. Paul, couldn't you?" [interviewer laughing] I wouldn't want to drive eight- and-a-half, nine hours, [interviewer laughing] [inaudible] It's stupid, stupid, stupid - they are so myopic and so out of synch with America.
So you - initially, I mean you just said that you lost when the Supreme Court wouldn't near your case. But, initially, in 1980, you - felt like you won. Right? I mean, they. ..
Oh, I did. -I -I had, I had a Writ of Mandemus that ordered me immediately reinstated . . .
So what are the - and this is. . .
With all rank and privileges. The Army just ignored it.
Uh - Hah. How did they ignore it? For -I mean, what was it? - seven or eight years that it [Ben-Shalom starting to speak in background] - it took for you to get back in . . .
I had a lawyer that kept doing it, and they sent me this check for this stupid amount of money. And they considered it closed. So, I give the check to my lawyer; I didn't cash it, and then, the lawyer that was handling my case kinda dropped out. - He lost interest. So I had to go and find another attorney. - And so it was - trying to pay off legal fees trying to find another attorney - to go back into court because the check they gave me was stupid, it was for ht wrong amount anyhow. And the issue was not getting paid off. The issue was, "I want my job back." And, so, finally, when we got back into court, I said, "I never wanted a pay-off, I want my job back." That's what the Writ of Mandemus says. The Army has refused to take me in and the court had to threaten them with really - with, with contempt. And, and a big fine, a big daily fine. And so they took me back in. [SE: Now, before . . .] It was never about money . . .
Yeah. And so the original thing - the original settlement or victory in 1980 had said. You got this Writ of Mandemus and you get a certain amount of money from the military? No?
All ranks, privileges, and protection.
So they just sent you the check hoping that that would shut you up. 10
Yes - How stupid is that? [interviewer laughing] And it was for the wrong amount anyhow.
What do you mean by it was for the wrong amount?
Well, I was, I was a E-5 at the time of my discharge. And they sent me pay for a private. -I mean, it's like, "Don't insult me." - And, and it was never about money - and - they it was interesting that during that time, when we went back to court - while they said - we'd sent you - and the check wasn't cashed, so they asked for the check back claiming that it was balluxing up the Army's accounting system, [interviewer laughing] [SE: That's weak.] Yeah -I mean, it's hilarious. I mean - and what's even funnier still is, if you want an interesting point in history, when I went to re-enlist - in 1984, after I - had gotten back in - do you know who my opponent in federal court was? [SE: No.] And they had like eighteen justice department and JAG Corps attorneys walk-in in. And the lead person was [Jeopardy tune imitated by her] Kenneth Star! [SE: No way!] Yeah way! - And this man - this unfortunate man, and I'll engage in some argumentum ad hominem, was an unfortunate [inaudible] - actually accused me of committing genocide.
[expressing disbelief] H-O-W?
'Cause I'm gay, and I don't reproduce.
[expressing amazement] Oh my - . . .
I mean, it, it's very interesting the course he tried to take. -And I wish Bill Clinton had contacted me, cause I could have told you - told him what kind shenanigans this man was gunna come up against. - What kind of shenanigans he would try and pull.
Now, When you got back in - before we turned on the tape - we were talking about a story - about you being in the chow line. Could you talk about that for the record?
Well, when I went back in - there was media all over the place. And initially, what they did was they'd stick me in this little room with a female officer - and -I was scared to death - Okay? Here I am 1-H, openly gay woman, just reinstated, in a small room with a female officer - Okay? -- Think about it for a second -I said to her: "Maam, I will not stay in this room with you with a closed door. - You, you open the door so that people going back and forth can see, or I want another person in this room. - Okay? She kind a looked at me and I said, "Maam, I'm not gunna have it if you're gunna try and set me up for sexual assault. This is not the way to do it. I didn't fight this fight - to do stupid stuff. I just want to soldier." And it's like you could see the light dawning over her. She didn't see, see it quite that way. So she went and she opened the door so that people could see in. And I said, "I want you to sit back there and see me, or we're going to sit where we can both be seen. Cause I said, "I'm not getting set up for it." And I think they were thinking of doing it. [SE: Really?] I do. - So, after the media - went to eat, and I went through the chow line and - and they had these big round tables - Okay? Seating perhaps eight, eight people, and I sat down and nobody would sit with me. -And -I was prepared for that - you know what I mean? -- And I - one of the reasons that I've always continued to fight - you asked me about the Civil Rights Movement, is no white person came down and sat with me to eat, but Black troops did -and I will always honor my African-American brothers and sisters for that reason, because, when nobody would sit down next to me, they did. And one of them -I said -Are you sure you want to do this? -I don't want you guys to get in trouble - it's okay and - and one of 'em said, "Well, what else they gunna do to us?" [interviewer laughing] Echoing - discrimination - and I said, "Alright, but I'd like you to know that I would not willingly place you in harm's way." And - I've never forgotten that and I honor those people - black enlisted people - one by one, came and sat with me.
Now you said that eventually - the local folks that you served with -and I'm - I'm assuming this is still in Milwaukee - Is that right? [MB: Yeah.] That the local folks were - kind of - what you'd consider models of leadership on this issue . . .
Ab, ab, absolutely . . .
Can you talk about that?
Okay. I sure can. I mean, it's a hard thing to deal with when somebody gets dropped in your lap and there's media all over the place. - You, you don't know - Okay? So my job was to soldier. And to convince them - every day that I was on duty - that I was not interested in messing around - alright? That I had fought this, fought to get my job back. And that's precisely and exactly what I did. When anybody would do something I'd - I'd turn at them and say, "Yeah. I'm gay, but. Here's the deal. I didn't fight this fight - and then try and educate them. And it was interesting. Once they realized that what I was saying was the truth - it was - sort of like education opens up people's mind. You understand? And once they realized that I was not what they thought I was - which was Oh boy - whatever - and that what I really wanted to do was soldier, and what I really wanted to do was serve my country, there wasn't a problem anymore - example - alright? Do I say that every person I worked with was prejudice free? No I don't. But a classic example of what I'm thinking about is -I lifted weights -I swam and I speed walk when I was in the military and -- I could bench press 175 pounds and dead lift 400 pounds . .. [SE: Whoa.] Alright? So they made me weight control NCO because I was so strong and, I mean I speed walked three miles in under twenty-five minutes. Do you realize how fast that is?
That's very fast.
Yeah. And so, there was this one Sergeant who, a female, who was a ne'er do well - whatever - and she did not want me touching her because she was, she was overweight was the real problem. - but she didn't want me - you, you get taped and then you do a weight - body mass - weight type of calculation. And so she went to - my first line supervisor - also a woman [inaudible] "I don't want that woman touching me . . . da-da-da-da-da-da-da." And this Sergeant, first class, said to her, "You're not Sergeant Ben-Shalom's type of woman . . . [interviewer laughing] [inaudible]. .. she's going to tape you." She then called me in the AR - in her office and she said, "Have you had a problem with Sergeant so-and-so?" And I said, "Well, she won't let me tape her." - An-I, and I thought it was because she was overweight. And Sergeant [inaudible] she said to me, "Well, Sergeant Ben-Shalom, I told her that she wasn't you're type of woman, anyhow, and she better get over it. Was I right?" And I stood there, my jaw hit the floor, it's one of the few times in my life that I was absolutely speechless. And she looked at me and she said, "Well I was right, wasn't I?" And I said, "Yes Sergeant, you are. She - She's not my type. -I would not even consider it within the realm of possibilities. If you were the last woman on the face of the earth, I'd be heterosexual." She said, "Well I thought so - it's that kind of thing - you understand?" And, instead of - trying to keep me away, they kept giving me more-and-more responsibility - so that I could serve, so that I could soldier - and it was that kind of thing - people talking to me - eventually, it really wasn't an issue anymore, when, when I was assigned to a leadership academy - in a Drill Sergeant's school. - It was very interesting that pretty much the people that were there - knew of my case and everything else. And I was, I was a teacher also at the time, so I brought my teaching skills into the military classroom. And I didn't have any problems. For the most part, with people - [inaudible] obliging me because they liked my classes. I tried to make them fun as, as opposed to the usual dead, boring - it's like when you have classes of how you set up your uniform because there's a way of doing it. - How you put stuff on: Your medals, your awards. So I used to have things like what's wrong with this uniform? - And, and we did sociograms and we did all kinds of fun stuff. So they really liked me because I made military training interesting. - When we went on for the field version of it -I was deliberately assigned - some senior NCOs who were bitching about the fact they couldn't wear their rank. I mean, we were in Drill Sergeant's School. The trainees, the, the Drill Sergeants candidates, remove all rank. Their, their candidates. - Okay? And it's sort of like they worked hard to do this. And they got - so they gave me all of these guys - and they were all guys coincidently - who - just were bitching, bitching, bitching. Didn't like this, didn't like that. Whatever, whatever. So I sat them all down and what you do is you take off your shirt. Alright? I, I don't mean I stood there in front of them in a bra -you have a t-shirt on underneath. So, I removed my rank. And I said to them, "I'm taking off my shirt. Now, hat stays - what would you say here, stays here until I put my shirt back on." -- Okay? And so I listened to them and I said, "Okay, here's what I can do about some things, here's what I can do about others. But the fact is that you're Drill Sergeant candidates, you're my candidates, and I'm not gunna have it be said that I didn't train you correctly." And I said, "We have two two ways to go." I said, "I'll be right with you and I'll do everything that I ask you to do right along side you." I said, "On the other hand, the issue of rank. You knew you were gunna have to take it off. And I know some of this other stuff is bogus. But it's what you need to do in order to get the Drill Sergeant's punkett." The badge - Okay? "Will you, or won't you?" And so I let 'em bitch. And finally when I -I said what I could change, and honestly told them what I couldn't. I put my shirt back on and [inaudible] those guys did everything I asked, and more. I - we were out in the field - right? We - we were setting up a parameter - so that if op form was gunna try and infiltrate us - like - you put cans on string and all kinds of stupid stuff. And you -I mean there is ways of doing it. Well then, the brass came out in the field and here I am with my - my squad [coughing] right? We had established our parameters. We had set up our, our guards - so that if we were infiltrated. And it was one woman with all men. Well they were like, "Oh, we can't have one woman in the field." Well, I said, "Captain, Sergeant ~ Major, I'm the squad leader. These are my men. If this were a real wartime situation, you wouldn't have a question about this. If we're supposed to be simulating - really training - real thinking, what are you doing? So - then they - "Oh, we can't have this because there was improprieties." And I said, "Yeah, and that's not fair to judge me by what other women did." "Well, we're gunna send you over here with the other women." And I turned around [inaudible] I said, "You know, you guys are not so bright, if you don't mind my saying so. Cause if you're really worried about something, you wouldn't be sending me to be with the other women." [interviewer laughing] And I said, "I'm sergeant Ben-Shalom. I want to stay with my men." Well, they sent me over to be with the women anyhow. And the guys bitched and bitched and bitched and bitched. They didn't relent, but - it's sort of like - is - soldiers will follow leaders. If leaders have courage, commitment, and candor, they will follow. And it doesn't matter whether they're gay of straight. - Soldiers will follow those whom they trust, who they know they can rely on. And my guys knew they could rely on me and they were not happy . . . {SE: Now -I. . .] I was not happy either.
I could imagine. And it does sound like you built that with them by letting them - be honest with you and you were honest with them.
Absolutely - Truly, it's the only way I would be a leader is to - to do what you would ask them to do yourself.
Right. I'm going to [tape side one ends here]
[splice in - side two begins] Alright. - And, He doesn't talk about it because he just - he doesn't find his community to be really accepting. And when - Clinton looked like he was gunna end the ban, we tried mightily to get him to come out - he just wouldn't do it - and it, it's a shame.
oh, I wanted to go back a little bit and talk - ask you - once - you weren't allowed to re-enlist, after your service ran out. Is that right? [MB: Yeah. I was.] You were allow-. . .
Well, I went - see, I have two cases. The first one I won was put back in. - When I wanted to re-enlist, and - for six more years, because I really did intend to make it a career. And then -I had a second case, which is where Kenneth Star comes in and the Supreme Court comes in, because they weren't going to re-enlist me. I mean, they sent a six foot, nine-inch Black Drill Sergeant - Sergeant-Major - to pick me up at my home and hauled my ass in at like 17:30 at night. And - it was like -"Sergeant Ben-Shalom. Are you still a homosexual?" And I anted to say, "Sir, are you still a white man?" [interviewer laughing] - And all this. And I, and I said, "I decline to answer your question." I said, "Do you always have somebody who wants to re-enlist into the office at 17:30 at night with a six foot, nine inch Black Sergeant-Major?" I said, "If you were trying to intimidate me, it didn't work." And I said, "Furthermore, I object to your line of questioning. I believe that you are treating me different than other people who wish to re-enlist and I think it's special enforcement of regulation." I said, "At this particular point in time, I decline to answer any of your questions, - And I'm asking for an attorney. And I want a JAG Corps officer here, right now." Well, what happened was - and we went to court and Kenneth star comes in - and - "Oh, she's gunna commit genocide," and all this - what an asshole. He really is, but the judge didn't buy it. He was a - this wasn't Terrance Evans, it was another judge - a World war Two vet -nobody ever asked me anything. I never got to speak up in my own defense - at all, which is something that irritates me. But he saw right through it and said, "you will take her back in," And so the next day I re-enlisted.
Ahh - Okay. So, were you in - for six more years - cause I - that wasn't clear form the stuff I did . . . [MB starting in background . . .]
I re-enlisted for six more years. But what happened is the Army appealed it and went down to the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals where they -the "silly seventh" in Chicago? - Where they issued - a decision that's really been vilified. It, it's sort of a speech equals conduct decision - and, I never did understand -exactly what it is, but because I refused to lie, although I had never been found guilty of any misconduct, the Army clearly admitted that I wasn't. But, because I refused to lie, somewhere in the midst of the future, you never could tell, I might do something horrible and disgusting. So, I would -I would [gasp] they issued that speech equals conduct. Well, if you piss me off and I say, "you know, you make me so angry I could just shoot you," - under this ruling, you can charge me with attempted murder, speech equals conduct, [with emphasis]
Right, [with disgust] And let's clearly - just for the tape - and for people who might read this later. When you say speech equals conduct, saying that you're gay equals - in the Army's eyes . . .
You mean - [breaking in] At least in the Seventh Court of Appeals - in their eyes - it equaled conduct, although there wasn't any. And I was very angry at my attorney's that they didn't attack this. And they - when they went to the Supreme Court, they really should've emphasized that end - why they didn't, I don't know - and I've often times thought that if we'd have made more noise about speech equals conduct, - whatever happened to freedom of thought, freedom of speech, - we might have won. And I've also wondered whether I might not have won if I had support from the so-called 'national organizations.'
Alright. Like Lambda legal - and . . . [MB: Yeah.] So. When Clinton runs, and - on the - Oh, one of his platforms is - he's gonna lift the ban. How did you feel about that? Now, don't - let's not do hindsight, let's just talk about 1992 . . . 15
I-was-so-filled-with-excitement. I thought, "Wow! Maybe for the first time I can come home." -- I thought, maybe America will be my country again. Maybe, I can go back into the military. Maybe, I can find my career again. Maybe, Maybe, Maybe -I was, I was filled with such enthusiasm, with such hope, with such a belief that perhaps things were gunna change and the future be filled with light. You understand? -I can't begin to tell ya how excited I Was.
And when did that - kind of - tarnish?
When he started back peddling and we end up with 'don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue.' -I realized that he had sold us out. I mean, what President Clinton should have done - he was commander-in-chief, alright? -- You don't sit there and have a dialogue with military leaders, you order them - Okay? They will hurrumpf, they will rattle their sabers, they will - grouch. - Soldiers always do these things. - But in the end, they will obey orders. And if they refuse to do so, what he needed to say was, "I want your resignation on my desk inside of twenty-four hours." - Okay? - That would have ended it all. But, instead - you have Sam Nunn around and talking to eighteen year olds - well, what eighteen year old is going to stand up to somebody from - our - A, a, a legally, duly repress - elected representative [kitchen blender's noise in background] and say, "I don't really care, Mr. Nunn, I really think they should serve." - They - eighteen year olds don't have that kind of presence of mind -I mean - although they're gaining that now - so - it, it, it -I -I felt betrayed. [SE: Now you . . .] I felt, I felt so stressed out, I did - not vote for President Clinton - during the second election because of this mess -I didn't vote for George Bush either. [SE: [laughing] Now . . .] I mean, I was devastated - with don't ask, don't tell" because what is that? - "Don't ask, don't tell, don't pursue." - People talk. "What did you do this weekend? Where'd you go?" -"We're having a party, do you wanna come?" - [gasp] If you say nothing, it's like saying something. - Do you understand? — It's a no-win situation. It's stupid, it's draconian. And they never prepared commanders for it either, so you still have discharges where -somebody says nothing, but somebody cast aspersions so they begin to investigate - yet.
Yeah? I mean, I, I feel very much as if I'm a P.O. W. -I can't tell you how many bases I've stood in front of - from 1991 until oh - 1994, I traveled - in excess of 350,000 miles trying to organize people in protesting -I protested in front of military bases, I was arrested in front of the White House, for non-violent civil disobedience. - wearing my uniform. . .
Why did you go to the White House?
Isn't that where the commander-in-chief lives? [interviewer laughs and agrees] -- The White House is the symbol of - where our nation is - more than any other single building - even more than the capitol building itself, the White House is where the president lives. Where else should I go? -What else should I do?
So you think that your arrest raised awareness on the issue?
I don't know -I -really-don't-know. I mean, the campaign for military service was - for - who engineered this - was run by people who really were not knowledgeable about the military. And I think one of the reasons we got 'don't ask, don't tell' was because the lawyers that they had working on the issue, the Clinton administration, really didn't understand how the military is different from - civilian life, and how military law is different from civilian law. I mean, it was very stupid, it was not well planned. I mean, they had lawyers there who didn't even know military rank - who didn't know what a - sergeant-major was - is that a sergeant who is also a major? I mean, really - totally ignorant. I know 'cause I was there and I was working on it - it was, it was pretty bad. - And they had civil rights attorneys who were just-not-well-versed. And so I blame - once again - the leaders in our community for trying to do something about which they had no factual basis and knowledge. - And so -I do feel like a prisoner of war because I look at myself - now -I am told that I am unfit to serve my country because I refuse to lie. I'm told that I may not marry. I am told t-h-a-t my relationship doesn't count. So that if I make a will out, and if I had a family that was so inclined, they could break the will - and my partner might get nothing. -I am told that my relationship isn't worthwhile, so that if I don't set something up, and, and, I'm in a life - life threatening situation, and then ask." Well my partner can't come in and make a decision." Unless I have - like a, a - power-of-attorney, or whatever, whatever. Do you understand? -- I look back in history at Nuremburg Laws. First, Jews couldn't teach, then they couldn't be doctors, then they couldn't marry Aryans - and if they were married to an Aryan, the Aryan was encouraged to divorce them. Then their property was taken away from them - and confiscated. Then they were placed in ghettos. Does any of this sound familiar? - Okay? — I think were entering very dangerous times right now, in 2004 - society goes on a swing - it's like a pendulum. It goes from being liberal to being extremely conservative and I think we're in the extremely, extremely conservative part - and, one of the things that frustrates me right now is -I wanna know if I am a person under the law - you understand? I don't have the same rights and protections under the law as everybody else does. I don't want any more, but I don't want any less, either - Okay? And so, since I don't have the same -I have considerably less - Am I a person under the law? What am I? and I -I - if I know how to do it - I'm an English teacher, not a lawyer -I would go to court and I would -I mean, it'd be a risky thing - cause they could say that you're not a person under the law, but I'd like to go to court and have my status determined. Exactly what kind of citizen am I here? -Why is it that I don't have the same rights and protections that everybody else has? Why don't I have the same privileges that everybody else has? I'm not a fellow, I'm not a mental defect. I'm not a physical defect - Why? Well, will you tell me what I am? -And so I feel like a prisoner because I don't feel like America is per se my country, in that sense of the term.
I read somewhere ... 17
Do-you-understand . . . [SE: I do . . .] what it is that I am trying to say? It's, it's words don't convey it - it's a very deep sense of betrayal and disenfranchisement -I, I think how I feel is how many Blacks felt - which gave rise to the Civil Rights Movement - Jim Crow Laws. Well, now, we got - [disgust, sigh] I don't know - Peacock Laws for gays [interviewer laughing] I mean - lavender Crow Laws. Group Crow Laws I don't know -I mean, I wanna be funny about it, except that that trivializes it...
Right, right, and it's tragic . . .
And I'm, and I'm not, and I'm not trying to, but in effect is not the denial of our rights the same thing as Jim Crow?
Yeah, [sighing] I think a lot of people would make that comparison -in fact - my research is on the Civil Rights - my earlier research was on the Civil Rights Movement, so that's -I obviously echo much of what you're saying that - that this is a civil - it's a modern civil rights struggle. No question about it.
And so -I mean, if you of some attorney who understands why it is I would like to go to court and have from - what am I under the law and have it determined. I would like to [interviewer laughing] if you know an attorney, I will go, I will fight. Because I'd like to know what it is. I certainly am not a full class citizen.
Well one of the things I was gunna ask you - when you were talking about feeling betrayed by America is - a - that I had read online that - you were considering - or you had thought about volunteering for the British army because the British Army has a different policy about this - that -I don't know if you were serious or what's your . . .
Yeah, I was quite serious - and I actually - when the Canadian Army, Army changed during Persian Gulf [inaudible] in Desert Shield. Desert Storm -I actually - wrote to somebody in Canada and I asked whether I could volunteer -I also volunteered to serve at Abu Gharib -I speak some Arabic - simply because I was so -I said, "Take me back in." - Because -I, I, I was so horrified by what I saw. When I was a Drill Sergeant, I certainly understood the concept of the Geneva conventions, and there would not have been any torture, or any abuse on my watch. When I saw those naked bodies piled up on top of one another, [deep breath] all I could think of was Auschwitz. - It affected me very deeply as a gay person, - and, I mean, I, I am sorry. No private, no sergeant comes up with this sort of bullshit on their own, - Okay? - especially that, that poor woman, who was pregnant. I mean, somebody planted that idea in her head and I think it is the ruthlessness and the-e - and the - [speaker pauses] I don't know -I'm certain it goes up to the highest levels of the Bush administration. - Okay? Because the orders to do that had to come from somewhere - and you're not going to see any higher, senior ups, get prosecuted for it. You're just gunna see the sergeants, the privates, and the - and the corporals which is such a shame. But I could go and, I mean, I've taught in a prison system here in, in the United States. I, I know what it is, I was a teacher - and my Drill Sergeant's training makes me - very eligible to be a combat MP and I would have gone there and served gladly. And I don't really give a rat's ass who would've told me to abuse them. I wouldn't have done it.
Right. Now - what do you . . .
On the other hand, -- When you do these kinds of stupid things, - when there's only a certain type of person who's gunna to go in - what did you expect? - somebody who's 'white trailer trash' to understand the niceties of the Geneva Convention? [interviewer laughing] I don't think so . . .
Yeah - so in general, are you opposed to the Iraqi War? Or -I mean, this is - you don't have to answer ...
Absolutely. I am opposed to the Iraqi War - there were no weapons of mass destruction - George Bush lied - or, shall we say, misrepresented things - that is not our oil, underneath their sand. And I think - this is, I don't, I don't know how it is. This is, this was - like vengeance, alright? Because 'W' thought that Saddam Hussien had threatened to kill his father. So he trying - vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord - alright? 'W' is not the Lord [interviewer laughing] - Okay? - This was an ill-thought out - thing that he did, and what it done is polarized the Islamic World. And so, what we are engaging in is now is not so much of an Iraqi War as - as an extension of the Crusades. - Okay? And it's not something that we can win.
Well let's back off -I mean, I'm glad that -I wanted to give you a chance to talk about that cause obviously it seems very current and relevant to the military today. - But I wanted to back up a little bit and talk about - well, just get a sense of what you do for a living today. - Okay?
I teach at Milwaukee Area Technical College and at the Bryant and Stratten Business College. I am a teacher of English - and, what I do, is I teach college composition and research, and also what I, what I lovingly call - this is not an insult -I called un-dunce-head English - Oh boy. The period comes at the end of the sentence, [interviewer laughs] In a paragraph, you have like four-to-six sentences, [interviewer laughs] This is what you start out with. - It's your basic, handy-dandy knucklehead English for people who didn't attend English class when they were in High School. And they wanna go to college now, so we plug-up holes. - And I love it, I love teaching this kind of English. 'Cause I really, I really like teaching. - Okay? And I try to bring my enthusiasm into the classroom - Plus, I like words. I think words are cool and I try to teach my students that the more words you have, the better you are able to express yourself and therefore, acquire power. - And - you - as Malcolm X says, "Vulgarity and profanity is the sign of an ignorant mind trying to express itself." -- He's right. And so I try to show them - the more equipped they are to repair the wrong. And so that's what I do, as an English teacher. 19
Excellent. Now if you had to look back over your very varied career in the military, could you talk a little bit about what you think its legacy is for you? Like - in short, how did military service affect your life?
It made me strong, it made me outspoken, and it made me fearless.
It made you fight the system, in other words.
Yeah. The Army taught me very well how to be a strong, independent - A woman. - And, it, it -I, I, the Army taught me that women, women could be strong. And I don't know that, that was a lesson they were looking to teach me. But I learned it anyhow - It has given me the strengths - as a civilian - to challenge rights and wrongs that I see. In my security - knowing full well that I might not getting anywhere - That I might not getting it anywhere - knowing full well that I was gunna -encounter prejudice. - Even so, you have to stand up and speak out. I mean, an example of what I'm talking about is I won a fairly prestigious award. - the Anderson Foundation Award - and I was teaching at a high school in Milwaukee at the time. And I thought, "Well, this is cool. Students should know." - This is an important award - and there was some fundi girl in one of my classes - who brought in exodus pamphlets and -- [interviewer laughs] you're in - who stood up in class, and called me - as fundamentalists will - you're as abomination da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Well, Oh. First of all, she was harassing me sexually -I don't mean she was interested in me -I mean, she was, "you can get converted; you need to accept Jesus." - She was harassing me. So I took her to the principal - who - kinda like - did nothing. And so, I had to sit down and say, "I don't want to fight this, but I'm being harassed. I won an award. I thought it was appropriate to share it with my students. Other teachers agreed. - If you're not going to do anything, I'm gunna get my attorney in here. "Now I don't wanna fight, but I will if have to." And then I got the girl's parents in, and here's the deal: "She either stands up, in front of the class, and apologizes to me, or I'm going to sue you. And I will win because harassment is harassment." I said, "Your objections would be appropriate if I were soliciting but to share in a 25,000 dollar award that I won for my civil rights work, and I hauled in all my awards - and hauled in a n honorable discharge and [inaudible] put in - and I said, "This is who you are dealing with." I said, "I think it's appropriate for students to realize that teachers win things." I said, "And I can see your objections if I was talking about - you should all be gay da-da-da, but I didn't do that. So you have a choice: your daughter either stands up an appropriately apologizes, with - in the same loudness that she threw the exodus pamphlets at me, or I'm gunna sue you." And I said," And I will win." And I said, "I fought the Army. You people are gunna be a piece of cake." [interviewer laughs] Okay?
What happened?
Well, they kinda like looked around and I said, "I'm ready to bring my attorney in this room right now." And I said, "There's not going to be any mediation." I said, "I am a Jew. How dare your daughter tell me that I should accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. That - that I can be converted." I said, "Converted for what?" I said, "It's harassment, plain and simple. And she did it in front of a classroom full of students." And I said, "By the time I'm finished with you, every time you go to the bathroom your gunna pay me two bucks before you do it, [interviewer laughs] for the rest of your life." So, she actually got up, "Well, I'm sorry." And I said, "Nah-uh." I said, "What are you sorry for? What did you do to me? And why are you apologizing?" And I said, "Think what you need to do because I will, I will take you to court." And the other students are like looking at it. And she said, "Well, I harassed you - and, I uh -made remarks about your religion." - And, I mean - she wasn't very gracious about it. But I told the rest of the students, I said, "This is what happens when you are in the real world. You don't make remarks about their personal lifestyles. You don't do this." And I said, "If she had not apologized in front of all of you - because she made her other remarks in front of you - she'd be in court right now and I would be winning a lot of money." And somebody says, "Well, you should have gone to court and won the . . ." [interviewer laughs] And I said, "No, it's not about money, it's about my dignity and it's about your dignity as well - and it's about our right to live our lives without fear." So it was a pretty good lesson to teach. But, I mean, one of the things that irritates me still is -at any average high school, say some person comes in a lot - uses the 'n-word' - calls somebody a nigger, alright? All hell would break loose. But you walk down any, any classroom. And you still hear'fag this, fag that' 'Mother-fucker fag' 'Fag ass' 'Fag' 'Butt fuck' - And the harassment continues and - it what - also - what I feel so disenfranchises gay kids kill themselves at the rate of three to four times other kids kill themselves. Okay? That my child should commit suicide because they feel so - separate - and so alone that they can see no way out is an abomination. That gay kids kill themselves at such an other rate, what does that say? [dish noises] And will anybody kindly tell me how many gay kids have to die, how many - how many teenagers have to commit suicide before we wanna do something about it? - Give me a number. Let me know, and when we reach that number, then we'll do something. -I, I've had, over the course of my teaching career, four students commit suicide, - and I've never forgotten it. And I tried to do what I could, legally and lawfully - and - it just [sighing] [pause] it tears my heart out. Fortunately, there is a school starting up in Milwaukee called the 'Alliance School,' which is gonna have an outreach to kids who've been - a - bullied. And it, it has a special outreach to GLBT students as well. And I'm so glad to see it, because -I, I have seen some things that are just horrible. When I used to teach for Milwaukee Public School District, for my prep hour - you, you'd go work in your class [SE: Sure, sure . . .] with ever -I always had an open door policy. And I would tell all my classes, "If you need help or whatever, you can come in to my room during prep hour. - You will have to get a pass from your study hall. You may not cut, cut another class to come in here. - But if you want to, you can. And, the only rule is you gotta work." You'd be surprised what crept into my classroom. Just - to be there for an hour.
Well -I think that that's - that we've covered all the questions that I had. But, I wanted to ask -I always ask this at the end - and, - a, are there any questions that you think would be - that I didn't ask? That you think that we should talk about for the Library of Congress? - In terms of your military service, or your activism? 21
[hesitating] - No, other than, I want it recorded that it was not a gay man who first won and went back in. - It was a Jewish lesbian from the state of Wisconsin. [SE: Okay [interviewer laughing] . . .] - And I don't mention it because I happen to be that Jewish lesbian; it is a matter of historical accuracy. [SE: Uh- Huh . . .] And I would like it understood that it was not, not a guy. I mean, my joke is a cutie pot, cutie pie white male. Okay? - [pause] [interviewer starts in . . .] It angers me, that in our own community - we do not honor - what veterans do, and we do not honor what women have done as well. {SE: Uh-Huh . . .] - And - why, why should I be angered, since gay people are just like anybody else as well? We mirror the attitudes of society around us: which is still sexist, which is still homophobic, and is becoming increasingly anti-Semitic. So, why should I wonder? But nevertheless, I do. [SE: Okay.] Okay?-I would also like people to understand that, at times, I may shot - sound strident. -I hope not shrill, [interviewer laughing] - But [sighing] - What else should I do with my anger? [SE: Sure, [agrees] ]- The Army trained me very well: at, at fifty-six years of age [breathing] -I may not be able to run as fast as I once could, but the Army trained me very well. Would you rather I had committed violence? Done a Columbine - as it were? - You, you know, you know what I'm sayin? [SE: Ye-up.] Or would you have rather that I turned my anger - to constructive things, to speaking, to doing -I want people to understand that I'm not as hard as I seem, that I'm not a strident as I seem. But if only you could walk in my shoes, and see what I have seen, and know what I know, you might understand the roots of my anger, and my stridency, [sighing] [pause] I also would like to say, that I hope like hell there's a time when I can stop being angry. [SE: Yeah.] -I don't like being this way. [sighing] I want so much to just be able to - retire with my life partner, have a good life, be able to travel - do some things that I've never been able to do. - Because I, I lost a lot of time, and I lost a lot of money, and I worry about whether I'll have to live on when I retire. -I would like so much to have some peace and quiet in my life. But [sighing] you can't, I can't - [pause] Will you stop the tape please? [SE: Sure] [starting in again] That's what I'd like to say is - when do we become - if, if we were malcontents, I might understand. But we're not malcontents: we've always been there, we've always served. - And there are many gay people who died in the service of this country. When, when do we get to be full citizens? - If anything, I want people to understand that I'm, I'm angry simply because of the continuing and lasting injustices I see around me. - Yeah, maybe there are gay people who are rich, who have nice apartments, or whatever. But when it comes down to it, money, money can't buy you equality. - And, those of us who live in, in the vast reaches, between the West Coast and the beltway, deal day-in and day-out with homophobic attitudes. And I don't care whether anybody likes me. I don't, I don't need another person to affirm my humanity. But I want to know: when do I get to be an American - whole and complete, same as anybody else? And so, I don't want them to think that I'm - a bitch in an iron corset on wheels, [interviewer laughing] - It's, it's just that I'm really angry at what I see. 'Cause I see so many people's lives being hurt. I see people being damaged. I see lives being shattered, [sighing] And it matters to me.
Well, Miriam, thank you so much for talking to me about this stuff, and - especially about your life. I know you've been interviewed - a bazillion times. And, you still bring the passion, and you still have - it's still really obvious, how much you care about this stuff, and what it means to you, and - what it should mean to everybody. So, Thanks.
Yeah, I, I hope I did okay, [tape recording ends at this point]