Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with John Lyons France was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. Spelling errors are indicated with [sic]; however, recurring errors in spelling within a single document have been marked the first time and not subsequently.
This is Friday, January 14, 2005. We're interviewing John Lyons, L-Y-0-N-S, France, like the country, F-R-A-N-C-E. The place of the interview is the Philip S. Miller Library. The address is 100 South Wilcox Street, Castle Rock, 80104. The Branch of Service: United States Air Force. Enlisted Service: November 19, 1952 to February 1, 1995. War served: Korea and Vietnam. Being interviewed by myself, Barbara Belt. I live at 8662 Kim (K-I-M) Court, Parker, Colorado 80134. I'm a volunteer for the Veterans' History Project. Good morning, John.
Good morning, Barbara.
Let's start your interview with the date and place of your birth.
Ah, I was born in Forest City, Missouri, on, on September 11, 1933.
Okay, and how many in your family?
Ah, I had one sister, have one sister, and that was sort of the bunch with my mother and father.
Ah, so your sister is the baby?
She, I am what?
Your sister is the baby? Or are you the baby?
No, I'm, I'm the baby.
You're the baby.
Yeah.
Okay. Ah, so you went through school there the entire time?
No. I went through the freshman year of high school and then my family moved to another town in Missouri, and I finished my three years in high school in Oregon, Missouri.
Oh, Oregon, Missouri?
Uh, huh.
Okay. I never even heard of that. Okay. From, from high school, where did you go?
Ah, I went to the University of Missouri for one year and then after one year, I enlisted in the Air Force.
What made you enlist?
Ah, my Father had been in the Army Air Corps in World War II, and I wanted to fly, and so that's why I enlisted.
So the love of, of flight.
Uh, huh.
Okay. So you had your goals set.
I did. At least in so far as flying was concerned.
Okay. So how did you go about choosing your goal?
Well, I went to, hitchhiked to Kansas City, Missouri, and, and to the, to the enlistment station, and ah....
What did your parents think?
My Mother wanted me to do it.
Oh, okay.
And ah, ah...
How old are you? About 18, 19?
I was just 18. Yeah.
Okay.
And ah, ah, I went to, I enlisted and went through the physical, and they stuck us on a train and we rode it to California, and I went to a place called Parks Air Force Base, which was....
So California was the first time away from home?
Oh, no, I had been a lot of places.
Oh....you had? Okay. Had you been to California before?
I had never been to California.
Okay.
But I had been to Colorado.
Oh, okay. So you were in California and you're liking it? You like the country, the state?
Ah, you know, we were obviously outside Oakland, California and ah, we didn't really get any place except on the base, and it was a 12 week basic, and ah...
You remember that? Basic training?
Oh, yeah.
What do you remember?
Every day of it. (Chuckle from France).
Well, I don't want every day.
(Laughter from France and Belt). Well, I remember that ah, yes, California, the weather was ah, very nice in November as opposed to Missouri, and ah, and it was, ah, strange, the topography was different.
I think we forgot one thing. Your branch of service that you enlisted in is the....?
The Air Force.
Okay.
The United States Air Force.
Okay.
And ah, I, ah, we went through each week a different kind of training, and while I was there, I had applied and was given the opportunity to apply for Aviation Cadets.
So, a series of tests?
Yes, uh, huh.
Uh, huh. And you did well?
I did. And ah....
Did you know that you would do well?
I don't think it ever entered my mind that I wouldn't.
Why?
I was, I was pretty well ready to do it. Ah, I, the ah, there was a six-month wait to get into pilot training...
After Basic Training?
Yeah, after basic training.
Okay.
And ah, ah, put a lot of pressure on me to go to navigating school, because I could have gone right then. And ah, but I said no, I was going to pilot training, so I waited the six months, and in so doing, they sent me to ah, San Antonio, where I went into, what was then called Intelligence Command. And started Russian Language School.
Oh, my gosh.
And ah....
Is that what you asked for? Did you want that?
Ah, there was a thing called "view chart" at that time, that had all the specialties in the Air Force for enlisted people, and ah, and because, your scores on the tests that they gave you determined what you were eligible to apply for.
Uh, huh.
And I had high scores, and so I was eligible to apply for anything in there, and I thought it would be fun to be in Intelligence Command, so that's, that's what I chose.
Okay., so where is this at exactly?
San Antonio.
San Antonio?
Kelly Air Force Base.
Okay.
And...
Oh, you're going for the School for how many hours to do this?
Well, I never finished. Ah, the, I don't think you want to get into all the details, but in any event, I got there ah, was put in that School. I started and it was actually sort of a primary to get you ready to go, ah, after California again where the entire Military Language School is. And all the services go through...
Did you pick the language or did they pick it for you?
No, they...ah, there that was the, that was the school where they actually started that kind of training and you either made it or you didn't. You washed out if you couldn't do it. And I made it through that. And...
Did the whole class, the whole Russian?
No, it was about a six-week course, as I recall.
Of Russian? Okay.
Uh, huh, and then we, ah, the Command....actually, there was again another waiting period. You had to wait to get into the school, the real school, and that really saved me actually. I didn't know at the time. But ah, I became...
What do you mean? It really saved you?
I, I probably would have stayed in that career field.
Oh, okay.
And ah, in any event, a new Commander came into Space Command, and said all the people who weren't doing anything, who were in this casual status out of the school, ah, had to go to school. So at that time, I was, you know, cleaning latrines and shining floors in the Operations Building and I happened to get that and that was great.
Now back up a minute. You said Space Command. Is that what they called it?
Yeah. They did in those days. And it was, it was....no, no, I didn't say that. It was Intelligence Command.
Oh, okay. I'm sorry.
And it's, it became part of Space Command so, a new thing in Colorado Springs and all that stuff.
Oh, okay.
Ah, but that's years and years, we're talking about since I spent 42 years in the military. They, ah, ah, this guy, the new Commander said everybody would have to go to a school, no matter what. And ah, so I was hitching rides with the, with the guys out of Base Ops and whatever airplane they had when they'd let me go.
So you were flying now?
No, I was just a passenger.
A passenger. Okay.
And ah, but I...
So you were up with the, in a fighter? Or what?
No, it was a mostly a cargo type aircraft.
Okay.
And occasionally a T-6, which is a trainer, a single engine trainer.
So you are a passenger in the back? Or a passenger in the front?
Uh, huh. In the back.
In the back. Okay. So you're just getting, going up in the plane?
Yeah. Just to go, because they had to fly to get time and whatever. And anyway, ah, I ah, talked to the pilots. And what, you know, should I choose on this view chart to go to School? And they said the worse ground school class in pilot training is the weather, so I went to weather school, which was up at Chennault Air Force Base.
You chose that or....?
Uh, huh. Uh, huh.
Why did you do that?
Well, because they said it was the toughest one, and I knew I was going to pilot training.
Oh, I see. You wanted to get it out of the way.
No, I would have to take it the same as everybody else in pilot training and I did, but they said that was the toughest, toughest part of the ground school.
Did you agree with that after going through it?
Oh, no. I mean because I, I did, I think it was again a 12-week school at Chennault Air Force Base in Illinois, and ah, it was right, of course, at the University of Illinois and it had a lot of really pretty girls there, and ah, ah, so I went through that school and just as it ended, I, I got orders to report to San Antonio for pre-flight, which was another 12 weeks Basic Training essentially.
Are you happy about it? That's okay?
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's what I was waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting for, you know.
Now are you staying with the same group of guys?
Oh, no.
Or different guys?
All different.
Okay.
Every place I went. Ah, well, one guy and I, we're still friends, he lives in Nebraska, and he was in, in that same school with me at Kelly Air Force Base, but he didn't go with me the rest of the way. And so I went down there, went through, though 12 weeks of pre-flight as an Aviation Cadet. And then I, I was sent to my first school, primary flight training, at Marana (?) Air Force Base in, actually it's not even an air base, it was a civilian school, in, ah, just outside Tucson, Arizona, and flew the P-818, which was super...
Is this your first time as a pilot now or....?
Yes. Except I flew with my dad.
Okay.
He...After he came back from World War II, I used to fly another guy's airplane.
Oh, so that's where your interest came into flying!
Yeah.
Oh, I see...Oh, okay. That's fine.
Well, I was really proud of my dad.
Yeah.
...And I wanted, I wanted to be what he did.
Uh, huh. So...in Tucson, this is, actually you are beginning, you're piloting a plane?
That's where pilot training started and that was a six-month's school.
How did they start? How did they teach you this? Starting from the beginning of the class. I mean, what do they; how do you start to be a pilot at that point?
Well, start ground school, which basically was to know the airplane.
Okay.
You learned all about instruments...
What kind of plane are you flying now?
This is a P-818. It's a super-cub; a piper cub.
Okay.
With a bigger engine in it and that kind.
Are you excited?
Oh, yeah. Really. And I had, I ended up with an incredible instructor. I got a Canadian, who had ah, shot down nine German aircraft in World War II. He was a real fighter pilot and of course, the guys at his table which was funny because the P-818 is a tail driver and so they put the tall guys with John C. Lee, who was the instructor.
Oh, you remember his name.
Oh, yeah. I remember exactly. And ah, and he, because we were tall, all but four guys. Each instructor had four students, and we were all tall, and so he was, he was taller than...
So you would have to move the seats and...?
No, sorry. He sat in the back, see, and it's, it's a tandem, and so you sit like this. Well, the little guys, instructors, couldn't see across us to the front.
Oh...I see.
And so the four of us got John C. Lee as the instructor. And it really worked out great. But we flew ah, ah, when we started to fly, they would go through, you know, all the steps, everything you were supposed to do, but you never sat in the back, you were in the front right from the start. You learned how to start the engine, and how to do all that stuff. And ah, then we flew a minimum of eight hours with the instructor before we soloed. And ah, that was just a rule even if you, some guys that came in there had a lot of flying time already. But ah, I flew my eight hours, and you know, he worked...
That doesn't seem like very much time.
Well, it was probably six different rides. We'd get about an hour, an hour and 15 minutes on a ride, something like that. And ah, and landed, oh, innumerable times. There were little squares of asphalt out in the dessert that served as auxiliary fields, and then so you could land in any direction, wherever the wind was.
Uh, huh.
And we'd go out there and land and take-off and land and...
Now could they have sent anyone to helicopter school? I mean, was this ever brought up to you?
No.
No. Okay.
Now, the atmosphere wouldn't lend to helicopters hardly at all at that point.
Oh, okay.
And that was Army.
Okay.
Ah, that, well, that's, that's not my story.
Okay. Where do you go from there?
Well, ah, after I soloed, ah, then, then you flew solo about...
To graduate kind of thing.
Well, we got 20 hours in the P-818 total. And then we moved into the T-6, which was also a tail driver, but it was a two tandem cockpits and had a lot bigger engine and ah, it was actually a nice airplane. And ah, we flew that for 130 hours total.
How...What's the highest you would go? Your altitude, do you remember?
Oh, maybe 8,000 or 9,000 feet. Something like that.
Okay.
Ah, there wasn't any reason, we'd go out and do aerobatics.
Aerobatics?
For hours and hours of it. Yeah. We got....
So at this point, you were doing aerobatics?
Uh, huh.
Okay. Love it?
It was great. Yeah, yeah. It was really a lot of fun, and of course, we learned to fly instruments, too, and that was in the back seat in the T-6. Had a hood that went over you, and you made approaches to fields under different electronic stuff. And ah, so after 140 hours, that was the end of six months of basic training.
Uh, huh.
I just touched that. And ah, and I was sent to Big Spring, Texas, ah, for advanced training and that was in the Dener (?), a new airplane. Ah, actually the airplanes were brand new.
Which...Are you....What is your rank now?
Still an Aviation Cadet.
Okay. Oh, still a Cadet.
Yeah. We're all the way through... we were working toward getting our wing simultaneously with being commissioned.
Oh, oh, I see. Yeah, then you'd be a Lieutenant then at that point.
Uh, huh.
Okay.
Second Lieutenant. And so I flew the T-28 which was a tricycle landing gear, brand-new, North American airplane, and ah, really a, a beauty. There are a few of them out at Centennial that you can own right now. And ...
Any doubt that this was the wrong career for you?
Oh, no, no, no, no. I was, I was doing fine. And ah, I flew the T-28 for 40 hours. Again a lot of instrument training in the back seat and you really don't get a lot of that kind of thing and then we moved into the jet. And ah...
And that was at the same place...the same Air Force base?
Yep. That was at Big Spring, Texas.
Okay.
And moved into the T-33, which was the trainer version of the F-80 Shooting Star.
Now you're loosing me. Is...this is your first jet?
Uh, huh.
Okay. That's the name of the first jet that you're flying. Okay. Was there excitement for this?
Oh...
How are you feeling?
Big time! I mean it was, yeah, gosh, ah, it was just amazing. I mean, the, the feeling, and the, the fact that you were going to do this, and hyper as hell. And you know, really, and your ground school was going on all the time.
So you would have someone in the back, your instructor is behind you still?
Uh, huh. Uh, huh.
And what does he, what does he tell you? I mean, when you get into the jet. What is he telling you?
Well, by the time we got into the jet, we had been in the jet. We had been in a late trainer with the same kind of instrumentation...
Oh, a trainer...On the ground?
On the ground. We had ground school. We knew the hydrolytic system, the electric system, the engine, ah, proponent factors, fuel, ah, management and all that stuff. We knew that before we ever flew. And ah...
When you were actually in that...do you remember that day, getting in that jet? When you're going...
Oh, I'll never forget it. The guy's name was Higgenstein (?) was my instructor, and ah, we got in, ah, there were probably 60 or 70 of those aircraft at that, on the ramp. And ah, the, it didn't have nose wheel steering; it was a tricycle landing gear airplane, but you'd...that was one of those things that you really had to be careful. You had to get it moving and then be real careful 'cause you had to brake it on one rudder pedal or the other to get it to turn until you got going and then, then you could just use the pedals to turn it. It was real easy. But if you didn't, it was called "Coxing the Nose Wheel" because if you didn't do it right, the nose wheel would turn almost 90 degrees and there you'd be. You couldn't move. And ah, that was very embarrassing because you had use a lot of power and blow things around and, and so I was quite concerned about that, I remember. I didn't want, I didn't want to "cox the nose wheel" getting out of the parking space the first time and so you know, we did the walk-around like you always do with an airplane and ah, made sure that everything was ready and everything was tied down.
What are you about 20 now?
Ah, yeah, I was, I was, was 20.
Okay.
And ah, struck in, indicated parachute up from Operations and of course, we had the hard hat and the oxygen mask was all new. We hadn't gone with that before. And ah, but we were ready to do that. They had had us in, in all kinds of training and so we...you know, the engine, you can't, you couldn't hear it hardly at all when you had all that paraphernalia on and when the canopy came down, and it was a Clarence Hill (?) type canopy. Came down over both of us; the switch was right there. And ah...
So you're flying over dessert?
Ah, yeah, that's pretty much...that's pretty dry (Chuckle from France) in that, in that part of Texas.
What's your altitude do you think now?
You mean as...oh, how high are we flying?
Yeah, the pilot, your jet, how, how high are you going now?
We went to 20,000 feet that day.
20,000.
Uh, huh. BEL:T Wow. First time to go 20,000?
Uh, huh. And I mean, the dial was just to show us that it would do it. We rarely went that high in the airplane. If the pressurization system there, was terrible. I actually later in my career of flying, I, I'd be at 42, 43,000 feet and the cockpit pressure would be at 47, and 48,000. You just couldn't keep up with it, you know. And anyway, that's just inside, but we, I, I remember the take-off, especially, because of the acceleration was so much greater than in the, in the propeller type aircraft. And when you raise the nose, and you're just going up.
Now what are your career goals right now? What...what are, what are you going to do?
Going to be a fighter pilot.
Okay. That's your goal.
That was, and I didn't have that until I had John C. Lee as an instructor, and he insisted that all his guys, you know, sign up for fighter pilots 'cause we had an opportunity to say what we wanted to do clear back in primary. And ah, that became a part of our record.
Okay. So...
When we had 120 hours in the T-33, in the jet, and ah, graduated, ah....
Parents there? Sister?
Nobody. No. They weren't there. And ah, some guys had a lot of family there...
Girl friend?
No.
No. Okay.
We were too busy down there for girl friends I'll tell you. It was, it was a grinder. Twelve, 14 hour days, every single day including Sunday, and ah...yeah, they worked us. But anyway I, I, ah, succeeded and, and was commissioned a wonderful Second Lieutenant and ah, got my wings. And ah, they had procedure wherein you could, you were given assignments, ah, you had to choose and the people were chosen by virtue their standing in the class, both academically and, and flying. And they, we went into this room, and there was a blackboard and the instructor had put all possible assignments. You mentioned helicopter and there was one of those. And ah, there were four F-86 Sabre positions, that's the airplane we're talking about here with the minimum. It was the hottest thing in the world. It was the first production fighter to go faster than the...
So the guy wrote on the blackboard...
It was wrote up there...
This is a job that needs to be filled kind of thing?
One, two, three, four, five, right through and there were 42 in our class, I believe. And they had 42 possible assignments up there on that blackboard. I mean, it was all there when we walked in the room. But there were four fighter assignments and that was the F-86. And the rest of them were everything you could imagine, I mean, B-25s, and, and some guys were going to fly B-47s and...
So who determines what position you get?
The guy that was top in the class got to choose first.
Oh, and then it went down the, down the wall...
Yeah.
Not the instructor?
Nope.
Just on your class ranking?
Class ranking and both, both, both the ground school academics...
Okay.
...As well as the, ah, the flying part 'cause you were graded every flight and you were graded in everything. And I was fifth in the class.
Oh, wow.
Which was one less than the number of fighters up there.
Oh....
I was just sick. Well, I was just holding my breath.
Yeah.
'Cause the first guy chose the fighter, and the second guy chose the fighter, and the third guy chose the fighter and the fourth guy chose to be an instructor in the T-33.
Oh, my gosh. You heard him say that.
Oh, yeah. I was, I remember, I mean, he was, he was one of the guys, one of the guys who flew with John C. Lee in, back, way back in primary by....
So you were surprised?
Ah, I was pretty much surprised. Yeah, I ah, I think, he was, he made a wonderful instructor, I'm sure, but ah, ah, yeah. Do I remember it? You bet. He stood up and said I want a T-33, and there was about eight or nine of those. And ah, so they put him down. And then it was my turn. So I got the Sabre. And after that was over, we all were a sent to the four winds, ah, all the different training bases, you know, the then the material Mach had the cargo-type aircraft and the guys who were going to that and one guy went to a helicopter position.
Had you ever seen the Sabre before? I mean, when you signed up, you, you, you never flew that plane?
Oh, no, no.
You just, but you did see it?
Saw it in the air.
In the air. Okay.
Never on the ground, or it, it never was...
It was never on the ground?
No.
...but you knew that you wanted it?
Well, I mean, I, I wanted a fighter.
Okay.
And ah, that was about...there were, there was another airplane, the F-84 straight-line, it wasn't, it wasn't a swept-wing airplane, and, and, and I didn't want that. So ah, anyway, I got that, and ah, and the guys who went to fighter training went to Dallas Air Force Base in Las Vegas, outside of Las Vegas.
And you get back to the dessert, huh?
Uh, huh. And it's...
So how many are in your class now? When you get there? Large? Small?
Ah...it was, ah, I think there were probably four classes going through.
Oh, wow, so you had quite a few of those planes then?
Oh, yeah. There were probably 150 of them on the ramp.
Oh, wow...
A big huge ramp. Just...
Sabres!
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
Ten in a row and all that stuff.
Sight to see that!
Oh, yeah. But the procedure was basically the same. We onto ground school, we went into the late trainer that, ah, and got ready to fly the airplane 'cause there wasn't going to be many with us.
How long before you actually got into the plane? Weeks? Months?
No, no. Well, probably about two weeks.
That's all.
Yeah. And ah, and of course, there's no other seat in it. There's only one seat.
Oh, wow.
So you're going and the other thing about it, you know, the T-33s has a big, long nose, which if you've ever flown an airplane, that really helps you with the horizon, you know, and so you keep it level or you're turning and all kinds of things. The F-86, down like this, and you were sitting there with a, with a windscreen right there, and that's all. I mean you couldn't, there wasn't anything else to look at.
Sound terrifying.
But, ah....oh, no. We got ready to go, and here again, we had....
Does this have machine guns on it, too?
Oh, yeah.
It does. And it carries bombs?
Uh, huh.
Okay.
And ah, we weren't into that at that point, but ah, that came later. But we, ah, but the first ride in that airplane was also one that I will never, never ever forget because it was three times the power of a T-33 and ah, as I said, you could go supersonic in it.
So when you take off, and the first time you're going with the squadron or going by yourself, just...a pilot?
Just an instructor in a chase position.
I thought it was only one person?
Yeah, but they had two airplanes...
Oh...oh...
They had an instructor in one airplane and...
Oh, an another airplane he went with you? Oh, my goodness.
And, and we, we talk, we, we, we could talk on the radio.
Back and forth.
Back and forth to each other.
Oh, for Pete's sake.
But I knew that, we were, we were taught all the procedures and everything before hand and ah, pretty soon we were racing at 140 knots. And ah, so, you know, I'm up and I, I've got to tell him how many "K" and, and he's ready to go and he said, "Go."
What your name? I heard pilots have names.
Ah, oh, boy, I had several names. Ah, I was called Captain Midnight for a long time.
Reason for that?
Ah, it was my propensity to be out late at night. (Chuckle from France). Anyway, ah, we took off and it was, it was put you in the back of the seat and you're going and ah, when you raise the nose, it's boom, up it goes. And, and ah, the landing gear flies up, and then go out and ah...
No problems?
No. And ah, we had an area where we went and this is before we had a lot of radar. There wasn't, nobody knew where we were.
Okay. What year do you think this is now?
This is 1954.
Okay.
And ah, so we went out in our training area, went to altitude, probably 35, 40,000 feet and the, and then this thing that you did....well, it was 40, about 40. And you rolled the airplane, and pulled the nose through and went supersonic. You really wanted to go supersonic straight away, like lot of the airplanes now. But it would go supersonic, went straight down hill, and ah, that, that was a thrill.
And how long, how long before you done, you go to the next phase? Ah, how long?
There was ah, let's see, I was there, I think it was about a five month school.
Five months on the Sabre?
Uh, huh.
Okay.
And ah, and we were, ah, of course, as we got further into the school, we did air-to-ground gunners, shooting at a...
Never have done that before? This is new for you.
This is brand new.
Okay.
And ah, it was a sight, there was peeper in the windscreen. And ah...
Now what does that mean?
Means that's what you pull on the target.
Okay.
And you just hold it there, like any other gun.
Okay.
And ah, ah, we fired on a 20 by 20 foot target that was on the ground between two posts and...
Do you do a fly-by and shoot and take off and circle and that kind of thing and go back?
We do, we do four passes on, on the, on the straight, and ah...
Machine guns?
Machine guns. And ah, and ah....Well, they only loaded two and each one had 50 rounds and so you had 100 rounds, so...and they, and they painted the ammunition. It's in a big string. You've probably seen those.
Uh, huh.
And ah, and they would dip them. They had a little machine and they would run through and they'd dip in blue, green and yellow and red so you could take a four-ship flight, each with a different color on the same ride, and then they'd come out and score it by color. Sometimes even bring it back into the Base, we had one, one area that real close to the Base, and they'd have bombs, ah, little, ah, practice bombs, that were, ah, I think they weighed about six or eight pounds, but they had ostensibly the same dynamic as a, as a 500 pound bomb, ah, because of the shape of them. And of course, that depends on the back and all that stuff. And we would drop, I think, six, I had a canister that held them, kind of like a revolver that would go around and click everything and fall out the bottom. And ah...
Is this hard? Easy?
Hard.
Hard.
Yeah. It was difficult. It was...
Harder for the bomb or harder for the Machine gun?
Oh, the bomb.
The bomb.
Yeah.
Really?
So, anyhow, ah, kind of stuck, you know. There wasn't any electronic gear that went along like there is now. No radar. Ah, we had a little tiny radar for air raid detector, but that's all it was for.
So it sounds like you're kind of like guessing.
Well, ah, yeah. You had to, ah, the fact is you'd usually drop a wind bomb, try to get the best site picture you possibly could, and the right angle, and the diagonal, so you could do the 30 degree and 15 degree and then skip bomb, which was low level kind of stuff, and you'd do two bombs on each one of those. So you'd tickle, there's a little button on the stick, and one bomb and then pull out and look back, 'cause it had, had a little charge in the front of it, that would pop smoke if there was a hole right next to it, and it would pop smoke out the back so you could see and then they had triangulation from towers down there where they could score pretty, really pretty accurately exactly where the bomb hit.
Okay.
And so you knew you had a good site. site picture and, and the air speed was right, the angle was right, (chuckle from France). There's a lot, lot to it.
Uh, huh. And you were graded in all of this?
Yeah. And the bomb hit 20 meters, you know, out at 2 o'clock or something. Then when you went back in, you put the paper 20 meters or tried to guess where that was and that's about all it was, was a guess. Ah, down the other way, the other side of the clock, which would be at 4 o'clock and tried to get a bull's eye with, with the bomb.
So what is, what is your next step then?
Ah, next step was to go to the fighter squadron.
Oh, wow.
We went out of there, ah....
You must be pretty proud of yourself?
Oh, of course I was...
Of what you have achieved and your parents.
We got to go to Misawa, Japan, and ah, but even there, it got all screwed up 'cause I had some really good friends including "Able" friends...
You're loosing me. You went to Japan after the...
After I graduated from Dallas.
That's your first assignment then?
Then my first assignment was to a, a fighter squadron in the Fourth Fighter Wing in Japan, the 336th Fighter Squadron. And ah...
And you're going to be on, with the Sabre?
With the Sabre.
That's your plane?
Uh, huh. And I got there, ah, in October of '55.
And you're still a Second Lieutenant?
Second Lieutenant.
Okay.
And ah, in those days, it took three years to get to be a First Lieutenant, but ah, we got into Tokyo and ah, we're going to the assignment place, even though we had orders to Misawa, and ah....
How do you spell that?
M-I-S-A-W-A. Ah, it was up in the northern part of Honshu, the big island before you get to, Sakhalin (?) is the northern island, and ah, but my buddies, ah, I had to gone to town into Tokyo. We were there for, I don't know, six or eight days and ah, before they were shipping us out to..... We were also, were supposed to go to Misawa. I came back from town mid-afternoon or so and all these guys were gone. And this deal had come in through their order room and what not, that they needed guys to go to Korea. Of course, the Korean War was, was basically over, and well, it was over. And ah, but it was a one year tour versus a two year tour at Misawa. And ah, so they all jumped on it. And they were gone. They were...just like that. Oh, gosh, I was just, I was just crushed. And ah, anyway, ah, it was a day or two later, they stuck me on a train, and I went north to Misawa. And basically there was nothing but mud roads up there in the northern part, and ah....
What's your assignment?
I'm assigned to the 336th Fighter Squadron as a fighter pilot.
Okay.
And ah, I got there and then things really started picking up, 'cause they met me there and a lot of fan fare and stuff, you know, and, and ah, went to the base, was assigned a room, and ah, on the next day, ah, I think it was a Sunday, and the next day, went to the Fighter Squadron and met the Commander, reported in to him and gave a copy of my orders, and the stuff that you do. And ah, and I'd say that I went into personal equipment, which was where you got fight suits and the helmet, and the oxygen mask and gloves, and coats and what we call "Poopy" suit which was a, a canvas suit with, it was tied around the...it was about.... I remember it had a thing that went around your neck and around your wrists and ah, a place for the G-suit, ah, that was the first time I had a G-suit was in the F-86. And ah...
A G-suit is what?
It's ah, it's like ah, chaps only it buckles around, you've got a, around your bladder.
Okay.
On your stomach. You've got a bladder on each thigh and then a bladder on, on each calf. And this hose runs out and plugs into, to a, to a receptacle in the aircraft.
So why do you need that?
Because when you pull seven Gs you will black out.
Oh....
And the reason you do, is 'cause the blood runs out of your, your head and into the lower extremities and so the G suit, when you start to pull, it, there's a valve that's instantly opens and forces air into this thing so the bladders blow up, all six of them, well, five of them.
I see...Okay.
And ah, and you still have to grunt some at seven Gs, but it's, ah, and that's what we flew, you know, in the minimum, and ah, but it'll keep you from, keep that blood from running out of your head. And we've got really great things now that you can stuff on your chest...
And where are you going from here?
I was there two years.
Two years. Okay.
I flew...
Are you dating there?
Ah...well, I wouldn't call it a date, you know, I mean there were, there were very, very few single, ah, Caucasian women.
Are you bored? Or are you happy there? Not bored?
Oh, no. I'm having a great time.
Okay.
We fired gunnery almost every day, air-to-air, and air-to-ground. Forgot to tell you about the air-to-air they dragged out, target behind another airplane, and they shoot on it. Same kind of ammunitions. It's so they can see who hit what.
So are you practicing every day? I mean, are you...
Almost every day. I flew a 1,000 hours of F-86 time in that two-year period.
Wow!
And ah, oh, yeah. It was a great assignment. It was just marvelous. We went all over the Far East. We had deployments to then Formosa, and ah, ah, Taiwan, that were 45 days long, and into Korea, for 45 days.
So you'd fly there, land, come back?
And then we'd probably live in a tent or unless they had some other kind of accommodation.
Uh, huh.
Most of it was tent.
So you were constantly practicing to fight?
Yeah. And when we were in Korea, we'd run up, ah, you know, on the DMZ, we run fast, straight toward them, and then, turn away. We never went in to North Korea. But it causes them to ah, to ah, scramble their guys who were on alert, and we sat alert on the other side.
Uh, huh.
And ah, in fact is, in one of those exercises, ah, ah, really bad weather, I mean, it was just terrible and they scrambled, they, whomever.
You're saying Korea?
In Korea. Scrambled ah, I don't know how many 'cause there were several bases there, but it was probably 20, 25 airplanes and all went right to the DMZ at high altitude, and of course, they scrambled their MiGs and by then they had the MiG 17s as well as 15s, which were most of them killed in World War, in the Korean War were on the MiG 15. I wasn't there for that. And ah, forgot to tell you. I was in Korea as an Airman for a little bit, just a little bit. Ah, while the war was still going on, and ah, we went up, and then, ah, you know, ran our fuel down to whatever was safe to get to the base where we were going and ah, and penetrated in this really bad weather. Snowing and all kinds of stuff, and ah, and ah, got on the ground. Well, we knew that the North Korean pilots, in the main, didn't get very much flying time. To this day, they don't. And ah, 'cause they don't, can't afford it. Can't afford to run the airplanes. And ah, a lot of them ran out of fuel and punched out.
Ran out of fuel up in the air?
Oh, yeah. Well, trying to make an approach to whatever base it was, and the weather was so bad, they couldn't get down. They ended up punching out them and loosing the airplane. And ah, so that was...
Did you see it or you just hear about it?
No, no, no.
You heard about it.
This was, I mean, the weather was just miserable and ah, but, by then, we had pretty good radar up there and ah, I mean, looking into the North, and ah, so we knew, you know, you heard that they disappear from the screen and, and ah, I had, ah, an opportunity to eject from a T-33, which we had two of those with the Squadron at, ah, at Misawa, and they were used for instrument checks. Had to take one every year, and that you was where under the hood. And you had some requirements for logging instrument time under the hood every three months or something like that. And ah, I was a cross country, went to Tokyo, ah, to pick something up, I can't remember what it was, some part. Had a guy in the back seat who was not in the Squadron, and ah, this airplane had under seat drop tanks that were, that were under the wings on the tips rather than, like a T-33, they were, it is almost, well it is an integral part of the airplane, is the, the 230 gallon fuel tanks on the tip of each wing. And, but these were different. And ah, so we started home. It wasn't very far. It's 300 miles or something like that to Misawa from Tokyo. And ah, in the weather, and I got a lot of smoke in the cockpit. And we were maybe 100 miles from, from Misawa. And I had a, there's a fuel management panel was over here on the left-hand side under sort of, you reached down to a lot of switches, and there's where the fire was coming from. And so...
It was an electrical fire.
It was an electrical fire, and it couldn't get the fuel, had plenty of fuel in the airplane, but I couldn't, I couldn't select it. It wasn't automatic, you had to select each of the tanks. And ah, everything ran through one tank called the fuselage tank, which is right behind the cockpit. Had 80 gallons in it, and of course, that started going down. I knew I wasn't getting any fuel from the wings and than from these tips and all this stuff until, ah, you know, I got in touch with a radar guy that was across the island and it was, he couldn't paint me very often and the engine quit. And ah...
The engine quit?
Well, you know, we ran out of gas is what happened. I still had all this fuel on board, but I couldn't get it. And ah, so I followed this guy's direction, and I thought there's, there's another base, a Japanese training base, ah, at a place called Matsushima, which was only about 50 miles from Misawa, right on the, right on the east coast ten miles in. I can make it there, and really be a hero. They told me the weather was 8,000, overcast, or something and that would perfect, what you call, a "flame-out" landing. After the engine flamed out, ah, I held the heading, ah, the instruments still worked from the battery, and ah, the engine was turning over, so I had some generation power as well. And ah, 8,000 feet, ah, popped out of the clouds, and instead of being over Matsushima, which is spelled M-A-T-S-U-S-H-I-M-A, ah, I was nothing but blue water, and looking back, I could see a little, ah, haze, that I knew was the coastline.
So you're, you're not panicked? You're thinking you're okay.
Ah, I was, I was a little concerned. Yeah, at that point. I actually turned toward that hazy look, I'm at the best. By then, I had, ah, jettisoned the external tanks so that I could glide further and ah, did that over the water apparently. I was in the process if I did it. And so we're going down, 160 was the right speed to hold in that airplane for the best glide and that's what I had, 160 knots. And ah, the guy in the back was having real problems with all of this and ah, he didn't, hadn't flown very much and ah, anyway, ah, we finally got down to about 2,000 feet and I said, "Okay, you're going to have to go." And I said, "Just get your head down; I'm going to pop your canopy off." And it was up a little T-handle that you pulled, and it had a charge in it that banged off, and it was gone. And so, I said, "Okay. You go now." And "Virgil, you sit back in the seat, with your head back, there's a headrest, and there's a handle on each side, and you pull those handles up and squeeze the triggers, and there's a gas charge at that time." Now, it's much more sophisticated. Ah, but popped you out at the rail, and you went out in the seat and you had to get the seat off of you and all that stuff. And the parachute opens. And ah...
He didn't hesitate doing it?
No. He went.
Okay.
...Right then. And I'm going, holding the setting at still 160 and I'm looking, and I'm looking at the water and I thought, "Maybe I can ditch this thing." And then I thought, "No....I better not try that." So at about 1,000 feet, I decided that it was time for me to get out of here. I was looking at my knees, which stick out quite a ways, and the bow, the metal bow on the windshield, the windscreen....I kept putting my hand on my knee and holding it up there, and I thought, "I'm not going to clear that thing when I go out. I'm going to knock my kneecaps off." And that really got my attention. I didn't know what to do, and I thought, "Well, my God, I have no choice. I'm going to die, if I don't." And so I put my feet into the stirrups, they were little tabs down there on the seat...
Is this still an electrical fire? Is it still burning and....?
No, it was gone, but...
Okay.
But it had ruined the capability of the...
Okay.
....To get the fuel out. And ah, so I assumed the position, and pulled the handles and bang out I went. Well, what I didn't know and kind of a lack in the training at that time, is the seat went out at this angle, not straight out. And so my knees probably missed that thing by two or three inches. And ah, I remember looking at the airplane going directly away from me, and I had spun around I felt like, apparently everyone does, because of whatever else it does to you, and so I had already unbuckled all the, the whole shoulder harness and the seat belt, and so I had to do was just kick away from the seat, which I did, and then got the D-ramp, that's now all automatic, and pulled the D-ramp. If you know about parachutes, and ah, I pulled the p-ringer, and I looked out there and I thought, "Oh, boy, I've got this cable in my hand and the T-ring" and then I went "POW" and I looked up and there's that huge canopy. Well, it's supposed to come out, but I didn't know that...
Oh...and now...
Obviously we had never had any training with that kind of thing.
Oh, wow!
And even ground school training....
You would think they would...
Yeah. But anyway, ah, so there I am, and going down. I had been swimming up in the, off the beach at Miasma, which is pretty, pretty close to the beach, well, right on the beach. And the water was warm, and it was very nice and it was cool. The wind was blowing; I was swinging back and forth in that parachute and the...
And of course, the control tower knows all this and knows that you're in trouble and knows where you are?
Well....basically. Ah, we were too far away from Miasma for them to hear us on the radio. But ah, the Japanese, ah, tower at Matsushima heard us. And ah, they got...and they had a land line, telephone.
Oh, wow!
Called up there and anyway, yeah, they knew it. And ah, and so, I had a cotton flight suit on and ah, not much else. I mean, the helmet and that kind of thing. And I had a "Mae West," which is a life preserver or I wouldn't drown, as it turned out. And ah, but we didn't have raft and nos. mean...
How long are you in the water?
An hour and 40 minutes.
Boy, that's not very long, really. I'm sure it was at the time.
It was 44 degrees.
Oh....Huh, and you're other companion?
He's about two miles or so outdo didn't, couldn't see where he was. I didn't know where he was.
Could you see your plane go down?
I did.
You did?
It went away from me. Ah, dropped off on the right wing, and then started a big turn and the nose came up, it was getting airspeed, you know, so that the nose came up, and I was looking right down the intakes. I was like....it was the most helpless feeling I've ever had in my life, hanging in that parachute, and here that airplane came.
Oh, wow...
But it stalled out, it ran out of airspeed and then just dropped and went straight down and a big plume of water came up, and that was it.
Who picked you up?
A helicopter. Ah, ah...
American?
Oh, yeah. And, but they were in Matsushima because they had had a problem with their machine and you know, they never jet helicopter then and ah, it was, it was a regular reciprocating engine that ran the thing, had a carburetor on it. And ah, the carburetor was off when they got the call that we were down. And ah, by that time, my Squadron Commander was there, and another, he was in an F-86, and a SA-16, which is an amphibious airplane, can land in the water, ah, out of Misawa. They were rescue kind of people. He came. And ah, I won't go into that, just to tell you that he wouldn't land and ah, and I was told later that my Squadron Commander told him, he said, "If I had "hot guns" on this airplane, you'd land." And...
This means what...I don't understand.
He just wouldn't land. You see, he wouldn't land the airplane.
What do mean "hot guns?" You mean, if you're....the bomb?
No, no, no. The guns in the front of an F-86, they have to be charged on the ground. Ah, and were to fire them, and when you're not going on a gunnery mission, you don't do that.
Oh....
And ah, then, and then we call them "hot." And ah, ah, anyway, this guy wouldn't land and said the swell system too bad, and he couldn't land. And ah, so I'm in the water, ah, I've, you know, popped my "Mae West" and thank God, it worked, and I started swimming toward, I thought, was this shore, swam, and swam, and swam and finally realized I was 35 miles out to sea. And ah, lots of things happened. Ah, fins...
I was just going to, I was thinking of sharks.
Start going around.
Oh, my gosh.
Turned out to be porpoise.
Oh. (Chuckle from Belt). Oh, here I'm starting to sweat. (Laughter)
But it turned out, I was sweating like, I can tell you. I wasn't sweating, I was really cold, and I would start to shake. I was shaking so hard that I actually had foam in the water around me. And ah, I was just freezing. And ah, ah, then pretty soon, I didn't much give a damn about anything and the Japanese pilots had come out in their T-6s, and they were roaring over the top of me. And we were waving at each other, and that kind of stuff, and then I didn't even look at them anymore. And ah, here come the helicopter. I had little bells of yellow and blue and green and red and I guess, the rainbow going around in my sight, in my vision. And he hovered right over the top of me, and I didn't even look up. I just couldn't care less. And then there's a big splash...
Hypothermia is setting in?
Yeah, and ah, and there was a kid that jumped out of the helicopter, ah, with a line and ah, and then they had what they called a "horse collar" on that cable and you put your head through it and put your arms through it and then they hoist you up. And ah, he put me in that thing, and up I went, and, they, somebody else...
You couldn't have done it by yourself.
No....And ah, they pulled me in on a, I remember having a big smile. I couldn't quit smiling. And ah, ah, and my, my back seater, was already in there.
He was?
Yeah. They picked him up, cut his ear almost all off. This much.
Oh, but you didn't have any of those problems?
No, no. We think it was his helmet, helmet came off and it had an old, old for these days, a clip, a metal clip, and it caught him when it came off in the, in the blast. Mine didn't come off.
Okay. What...now you're back in base? What's, what's going on from, from this point when you get back?
Okay. Ah...
How long were you there?
I, I ah, ah...
Were you in the hospital for a while?
No, well, yeah. They took us into a hospital in ah, Japan, a big hospital that was really built for the Korean War...
Uh, huh.
....And there was hardly anybody there. And ah, they put us in, ah, big, ah, tub of hot water, and it was probably like a, ah, ah, hot tub.
Uh, huh.
...It had jets and...
Warm you up.
And the water was going. Yeah.
Okay. Let's move along a little bit so we can get everything in here.
Okay. All right. Well, that's ah, you know, I went back to base and, and had to go through ah, a bunch of stuff and tell them what happened and all that kind of thing. And ah, I was there....
Did you still want to fly?
Oh, yeah.
You did.
Oh, yeah. In fact, they had me airborne the next day. And ah, and in the T-33. And ah, I then, I, I became a Flight Commander in the Squadron, which was, where you'd have four, I guess, four or five pilots who were in your flight.
So this is a promotion?
Ah, not from, not, ah, it was a promotion as far as the hierarchy and the, ah, in the Squadron...
But not rank?
No, not rank.
No rank. Oh...
No. I still hadn't had that three years as a pilot...
Oh...Oh, gosh, all this has happened, and it's not even three years.
Yeah.
Oh, wow.
So anyway, I finished my two years tour. Actually applied to stay another year, but they wouldn't let me. And ah...
Why?
Ah, didn't need, it was just a matter of need. And they didn't need me there and ah...
Did they need fighter pilots?
Well, they needed fighter pilots, but they had all these new guys coming in to the Squadron, you know.
Okay.
...Keeping them full.
Okay.
And ah, and...
Were you really upset about it?
Yeah, I was sent to Texas in Training Command to fly the T-33, with students. And ah, that was awful, and ah, and so I, ah, asked them to release me from the Air Force. And they did. At that time, we had more people than they needed.
Uh, huh.
And ah...
After how much, still three years or four years now?
Ah, I'm still within the three years.
It was....still within the three years you were released.
I had been in the Air Force about five years, a little over five years, and ah, but as an enlisted guy, in aviation...
That must have been crushing for you? You had your goals. That must have been hard.
Well, I was really wanted to go back to Nellison (?) and train in the fighter business.
Okay. So we have another goal set?
Well, but I didn't get that.
Okay.
And so that's when I, I wrote this letter saying I'd like to get out of here. So they said, "Fine."
Okay.
And I went to Colorado, started school at the University of Denver.
Why Colorado?
Because my parents had moved from Missouri, and they were living in Littleton.
Okay.
And ah, and my mother...
That was the only reason?
Yeah, basically.
Okay.
Ah, that was the only reason, and ah, ah, so anyway, I, I got to Colorado, and about three months later, I saw some F-86s go sailing over the top of Denver, and sort of followed them to their nest and ah, and that was at Lowry. They were flying out of Lowry because the runway at Buckley, which is where the International Guard is today, ah, was being torn up and re-, refurbished and so they had moved their whole operation to, to Lowry and so they were flying out of Lowry. And so I went in and talked to those guys, and ah, and a couple of months later, they had an opening and I got in the Squadron. And ah...
How old are you now? Twenty?
Twenty-one.
Twenty-one.
Uh, huh.
Boy, to have so much experience for a...
Yeah, yeah.
...Young man.
Well, they had, they had F-86s, and I had a lot of time in them, so they gave me...
So you got in? So what's happening now?
Ah...
What's your rank? I mean, you come in as a Lieutenant or how do they do this?
Yeah. I came in and got my same rank.
Okay.
It's a Second Lieutenant to ah.... This was an Air Defense Mission, big radar on the front of the airplane and what-not. And ah, after I'd been there about two months, I guess, ah, there was an opening in the Minute Men. And the Minute Men were at Buckley and that was their home base.
Now how did you know about the Minute Men? What is a Minute Men? What is this?
A Minute Men, a Minute Man is the, is a member of the team, the Minute Men, was the name of the team, and ah, and they were sanctioned by the people in Washington, you probably saw that in your book, and ah, and they were, ah, and their home base was Buckley, now International Guard Base.
Uh, huh.
Actually it was a Navy Base at that time. But anyway...
So you knew you wanted to be a part of this company?
Yeah, when they, when they put out the word that, that they would take ah, ah, applicants and ah...
So you applied?
Applied and we had a "fly-off," a competition, and ah...
In Lowry?
Out...now we're back at Buckley.
Okay.
And ah, we're in a real 86. I mean that was the beautiful red bird that ah, that Lyndon had. And ah, ah, but I had to fly a T-33 with the leader of the team ah, sort of during this competition.
How many in the team?
The team had six airplanes and six pilots.
Okay.
And ah, and seven crew chiefs. One guy was a radio guy when the rest of them had one airplane each.
And your assignments were to do what?
Ah, well, we put on shows all over the country. In fact, it was right after I got on, ah, we put on about two shows here. As I recall, Laredo, Texas, was one, and then we went on ah, a Latin American tour. And we went to Jamaica, and ah, and into Panama.
The same team?
The same team.
The name of...Can you remember the people on your team?
Oh, yeah. The leader who was called "Red Eye," and that was our call sign, was "Red Eye," and it still is the Squadron call sign in the International Guard at Buckley today, the Colorado International Guard. And ah, his name was Walt (Walter E.) Williams, he was a Colonel. Ah, the second in command, if you will, was a, a Major Bob (Robert C.) Cherry. Ah, both those guys had, had fought in World War II. And ah, and then the right wing was a young Lieutenant, ah, ah, who had been there longer than I was there. And ah, named Bert (Robert) Odle and the slot man was, ah, Gobel James, who himself has a tremendous record and spent five and one half years in the Hanoi Hilton in the Vietnam War. And I was the one of the two solos, I soloed with a guy named Wynn Coomer who was Korean War veteran and also flew for United Airlines. And ah, and we flew the two solo aircraft; there were four in the diamond, in the, in the....and that...those were the pilots. That was the six of us. And ah, so the crew chiefs went in a cargo-type aircraft, kind of hopping trying to keep ahead of us, and as we came into those other countries for instance, that was kind of thing that we would do. And ah, so we went to Panama and ah, we went to Costa Rica ....
Who put the Minute Men together?
Walt Williams, who was, who was the leader. And ah...he had lots of experience, all kinds of flying. He had done tremendous amount of flying in light airplanes as well as all kinds of jets.
Did you know about the Minute Men before you came to Colorado?
Never knew it existed.
Okay. So when you knew the Minute Men that some position was opening, you applied and it was...
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, and I won the competition. And so I went out East of Denver. In those days you could do all of that kind of stuff and ah, and flew for everyday for about two weeks doing the maneuvers that solo guys would do.
And is this part-time or....
Oh, oh, yeah. I was going to school at the University of Denver. And ah, as I said, Coomer was the United Airline pilot. Ah...
Are you all about the same age?
Ah...
Approximately?
Well, ah, Bob Cherry and Walt Williams were older. They were probably at that time old guys, about 35.
Uh, huh. So you were 22, 23...
Yeah. I'm about 22 at that time.
Okay.
And ah, and Go James, he was student at the University of Colorado and ah, ah, studying engineering. Ah, Bert Odle was a full-time, what we call, technicians. They were full-time people in the, in the Guard. Ah, but he wasn't in the fighter squadron. He was a radar controller. And ah, ah, let's see Go and Bob Cherry was also full-time in the....at that time, I think Bob was a Squadron Operations Officer maybe. And ah, and the crew chiefs were, most of the time, and I say that because sometimes some of them couldn't go and they'd grab another guy to put in who had the experience to do it, who would be a week-ender, who would be a guy that was, was a, you know, in some business or whatever. But most of them were full-time, full-time maintenance people. And ah, and worked in the Squadron.
But this was under the National Guard?
Yeah.
Okay.
And you were, as a matter of fact, we were part of the, the National Guard Bureau in Washington was really our headquarters. Now...
Oh, Okay. So they would give your, your, your places to do your shows would they?
Some of it, it was sort of a topsy-turvy kind of thing. When the request would come in, a lot of time they'd come directly to Colonel Williams or to Adjutant General, who was Joe C. Moffat (?) and ah, and then he, and then you'd contacted the Bureau at wherever it was. I mean, in the Pentagon, but, but whoever. And they would either say, "Yeah, you can do that one," or "Away, we got another request on this day and this day," and we'd work the schedule out but between us.
Uh, huh.
Ah...
Exciting?
Yeah. Yeah. A lot of it just came directly to us, but we always got sanctioned, ah, by the, by the people in the, in the Bureau in the Pentagon.
So how long was this in existence before you joined?
In '56, I believe is when they unofficially started, and they were given official recognition as the International Guard Demonstration Team in probably late '56.
Okay. And you came in..?
I came in '58.
'58. Okay.
And ah, so after the solo, during that ah, that tour. Wynn Coomer went on the whole thing. He did...
So this is formation flying that you're practicing, practicing, practicing...
Every day.
Every day.
And ah, Coomer and I would go...
Every day. What? Two hours? Three hours?
Ah, no. It would be more like ah, an hour and a half. Ah, we didn't have any more gas than that. Lower altitude they burn a lot of fuel. And you'd go higher altitudes, you go across Texas and stuff. You'd go a long way, but ah, at lower altitude, you really were sucking up the gas. It's, it's...
Was it hard doing formation flying for you? Or was it easy?
Well, by that time, I was ah, ah, very adept. I loved to fly formation and ah, and we had done...we had gone out and done all the maneuvers that they did, ah, far enough away that nobody could see us. Just for fun. And ah, you know, I knew how to roll on the wing, but I wasn't flying in the formation, see, I was flying solo.
Yeah. Right. Totally different for you.
Yeah. And, and ah, Coomer was it, well, but we'd join up, you see, sometimes some of the maneuvers, both the solos would join up with the four ship and we'd have a six ship diamond, aerial formation we called it. Ah, doing loops and rolls and stuff and then break out on, make our passes in front of the crowd while the team was turning around to come in for the next maneuver. And that was a lot of fun because we would...we'd come....
Did you do the United States shows and/or you're going...
Well, when, as I started to say, I did two shows in the United States before we went on the Latin American tour.
Okay.
It was a Good Will Tour.
Good Will. Okay.
Yeah. And ah...
Where in Latin America? Where?
Well, we went to, we went to ah, Jamaica, and then...
Okay.
And then we went into Panama, shows each place we went. And then we went to ah, ah, exactly didn't stop in but we put a show on in ah, Costa Rica. And then we went, landed in, in ah, San Salvador, and El Salvador and we put a show on there. And...
Do you ever fly your plane directly to that country?
Uh-huh. And ah, and the cargo plane would be in there and have our crew chiefs ....
Oh, I see.
.. Supplies and things like that. Actually on that trip, we had two cargo aircraft that was from another unit that, that gave us extra support. And ah, then we went to Mexico City...
Are you getting paid?
Ah, when we were on, ah, when we were, when we would be on orders or active duty orders to do these shows and...
But not practicing?
No.
Not practicing. That was your own time.
Yeah. And ah, after Mexico City, we went into Houston and kind of worked our way back up to Colorado and, and ah...
What was the feedback you were getting?
Oh, it was marvelous! It was just incredible, the people wrote letters and notes and all kinds of things. And of course, while you were there, and we'd taxi in, shut down in front of them, and get in a line and walk up and, I mean, it was just pandemonium. But the biggest one, I think, they claimed, they had a million and one-half people in Guatemala or in Nicaragua. Ah, it was a sea of people as far as you could see from the air. "My God, look at all those folks." And ah, we landed and they broke through the security lines, and came running out on the airfield. And we would taxi, nose to tail, off-sets we were learning that, check-blast to the other airplane. Six birds, coming up to taxi and they said, "Stop," and we shut down. And we all, you've got that throttle over here, and we stopped chalking it.
You are now flying...
Well, we knew...
Oh, you could see what was happening?
We could see this wall of people coming, and they just surrounded the airplanes, and we got down out of the airplanes and we were signing autographs on the....I signed autographs on girls' backs. (Laughter from France). And it was just amazing. It took us probably an hour and half to get back to the, to the Operations Building. We just left the airplanes. Well, they had security out there by that time. The soldiers from the Nicaraguan Army, they came out and got around the airplanes.
Why would other countries want the United States to do military fly-overs and shows? I mean, you said good will, but you know, you wonder to they want Americans flying over their country's air space?
You are...remember this was 1958. And ah, these...and it was...this was a show. It didn't have anything to do with bombs and...
Military...
Guns and that kind of stuff. In fact, these airlines..
It was fun.
...Didn't even have the guns in them.
Uh, huh.
They were all metaled-over and painted and what-not.
But they're fighters?
They're fighters. And ah, ah, they had never seen a jet airplane before in their lives. Never even seen one. So it was, you know, it was like something from outer space for those people. And ah, yeah, I remember the Nicaraguan, especially the Somoza (Anastasio Somoza Debayle). Gee whiz, they were, you know, that was a dictator, ah, bad man, and we landed and I mean, after we put the show on, well, we'd been there one day and put the show on and then marched up in front of him, you know, and saluted and...
What was his name?
Somoza.
Somoza.
And ah, he was a dictator, and ah, they had a huge party for us in the Pink Palace, which was sitting up on top of the hill. And ah, there was a bottle of Scotch for every two guys sitting on the table. And...
So they just thought this was wonderful?
Yeah. We thought, you know, we finished the show about, oh, probably around ll o'clock in the morning. And went, ah...
How long would a show last?
About, I'm guessing here, no more than 25 minutes.
Oh, really, I would have thought longer.
Thirty, maybe 30 from, from take-off, ah, maybe even 45 where you'd go out of sight of the crowd. And then, that, that was the job of the solo was to come from behind the crowd...
Your job?
Yeah. Come, what they called the attention pass, and just come right as low as you could get, right over the top of them. KA-BOOM! And ah...
And scare everybody...
And the scare hell of them and, and smoke going and all that stuff. And, and then the...
What altitude to you think you're at? The lower...
One hundred fifty feet.
What!!
Yeah.
Oh!
And we'd come down the runway sometimes 'cause Coomer was so good, and we were....do the head on passes in front of the crowd, ah, damn, he'd get lower than I did. I finally got down where I'm going to scrape the aluminum off the bottom of this airplane....500 knots, you know. And (Chuckle from France) I swear to God, he went by underneath that. I, well, he wasn't under me, but he was close. But you know, it looked like we were going head on, but we stayed on the left side of the runway.
Wow!
That was the, that was the deal. We all just went down the left side. Well, most runways were 100 or 150 feet wide, and so when Coomer, he'd be on his left side and I'd be on my left side, as we're going head on. You know, we'd do, ah, a maneuver right about here, where we'd go by like this. And everybody would gasp.
Explain that...
We actually had...
Explain that pass, please. Wouldn't understand on the tape.
Well, it's ah...what we would do, would be head on, smoke. We had a big smoke generator, and white smoke roaring out the back, and we would come, and just before we passed, we would roll into a 90 degrees bank, which would be into each other. And go back, go by a canopy, a canopy, but of course...
Did you every think "Oh, my gosh, something is wrong" or, or, I mean, any hesitation?
He who hesitates is lost.
So there's no hesitation. You just go.
None.
Have you ever been on a maneuver that something did go wrong? Someone goofed up?
Ah, not in that team.
Really?!
And they, they lost a guy. That's how I got the job. Ah, a guy crashed in one of the maneuvers, and we're pretty sure that he went in...
Oh, my.
...And stayed with the airplane on purpose to keep it from going into the crowd. And he got the Distinguished Flying Cross for it.
What was his name?
It's in the book. John Ferrier. And he was an Air Force advisor assigned to the squadron. Ah, and I never knew him 'cause he was...
Something, I mean...
He had some kind of a hydraulic problem...
Oh, so he was...
....He couldn't move the controls.
Oh...
He was going down. And ah...
They know that's what happened?
Well, he...they know because they, he, the airplane yawed and two or three of them could see him, of the guys, Walt Williams and this guy, Go James, who lives in Phoenix. And ah, and he was trying to get the airplane to yawl, so it would go away and it crashed in an open field.
So you knew that this, that job is open. Did you know about that accident?
Yeah.
You knew about the accident. So that kind of, you knew then there might be an opening? Is that how...you....
Ah, I guess I didn't really know that there would be an opening. I, I...
But you knew about that crash?
But I knew about that crash. Yeah.
Uh, huh.
And ah, and it was word of mouth kind of thing.
But no hesitation about taking that position?
Oh, no. No, no. Never a moment. And I did, after that I moved up from solo, ah, onto the left wing. I flew the left wing in the diamond formation.
So it was that harder?
It was pretty hard.
Why is that harder?
Ah, concentration, ah, ah, your eyes are glued on that lead aircraft. You never move them. Ah, it's, ah, and you can't, you got to be in exactly the right position. If you get too low, you get down in the air of the guy who's in the slot and cause him a problem. So you got to be iron, you got to be there like you're glued to that other airplane. And we're, one of the tips overlapped three or four feet, and ah, and, and you know, and, and then we had a lot of maneuvers where we left each other and came back, a downward bomb burst, like this, which was a lot of fun for the solo because the team would go out...
Which you did. You were solo...
Uh, huh. And do, do a loop, or coming over the top of a loop. Coming straight down, getting ready to pop the four airplanes out in the four quadrants of the compass.
Uh, huh.
But the solo would come across the crowd, and pull up and go head on at them as they were coming out. Be doing my best smoke, and the solo called the break.
What's "called..."
Which meant....
...The stop?
For when you'd go boom, boom, boom, boom. To go all four directions.
Oh, oh, to break to the different directions...
Yes, yes.
Oh, okay.
And, and solo called that because he knew where he was and...
So when you called it, what did you say?
Said, "Red Eye break now."
Ah...
And they'd go "boom," and go right up through the middle of it.
Okay.
Smoking going and all this stuff. It was a lot of fun. But ah, ah, the team then came to its demise, ah, when we were getting a new airplane. A new model of the F-86. Actually had the ground handling your equipment for all this stuff at the base.
So the plane is becoming obsolete?
Ah, yeah. I'd say pretty much so, but the deal was to keep modern stuff in front of the people because the reason for this, this whole thing, was to get people into the Air Force, to get people into the International Guard.
Oh, so that was ...
It was a recruiting thing. And ah...
I never thought of that.
Yeah.
I thought just public relations, but recruiting....
It was that, too, because, you know, the jets made a lot of noise and there were, ah, people who were upset by it. And around the airfields and what not, and, and so we were sort of the ambassadors to, to that. Tell them what we're doing and why we were doing it. And yeah, it's going to make some noise. And the pumper stickers came out to jet noises, the sound of freedom. And ah...
What colors were you?
Red and silver.
Red and silver.
Silver being the natural, ah, color, if you will, of the, of the metal.
Uh, huh.
And ah, and the red was, ah, what have we got here? Anyway, ah, I'll get you a picture that will go along with this. And ah, so Curt LeMay, you've never heard of Curt LeMay? He was the Commander of Strategic Air Command and then the Commander of the United States Air Force. And ah, basically the whole thing got up to him, ah, the Air Force wanted to, us to increase the size of the team to 28 people...
To fly into formation?
No, no. For ground crew.
Oh, oh. Oh, okay.
And ah, we couldn't afford it. And, and the Guard Bureau said, "We can't afford to pay those people." And ah, and...
That was the reason...?
Yeah. So they went to the Air, Guard Bureau went to the Air Force and said, you know, "Will you pick up these costs?" And Curt LeMay, when it got to him, they said, "Yes." When it got to Curt LeMay, he said, "No." And we were gone the next day.
Oh, my gosh. I'll bet you were devastated.
Yeah, yeah.
You were a member of the Minute Men for, from what period to what period?
Ah, almost a year. Not quite a year.
Oh, is that all?
Uh, huh.
Oh, my gosh.
Uh, huh. Yeah. It went out of business in 1959.
Just a year you had with those...
Uh, huh.
So that year was amazing.
Splendid! Absolutely splendid. And of course, those, the, the bunch of us that were on that team are brothers, you know, and we're still...and yet....
You had to trust each other.
Oh, yeah.
I mean.
Absolutely. Absolutely. And ah, that's what it says on that sign. Teamwork. Trust.
Trust.
Uh, huh.
Oh, gosh. Yeah.
And ah, but Cherry is gone. He, he died two years ago. Walt Williams died, ah, the other guys who were on that list, this list, that I never flew with....
Oh, ok.
...Is why I'm not using their names.
Were before you?
Uh, huh.
Before you. Uh, huh.
And ah...
So you were kind of the last person they hired on?
Ah, yeah. I was the last pilot.
Um...the baby?
Uh, huh.
Mum....So how come being the youngest and coming in, why were you given that much responsibility, at doing solo and left?
Well, the four ship flight, ah, was an, an integral part, I mean, you had to have been there. Ah, you wouldn't start out in the flight, you'd start out as a solo pilot.
Oh, that's how you started out?
Yeah. And I, see I had a lot of time in the, in the airplane.
Oh, doing solo?
I flew in Japan for 500 hours...
That's right. Yeah.
...You know, and that's a lot of time.
So, they're thinking solo is easier than formation flying? So the new guy can do solo because he's....
As a matter of fact, the responsibilities are tougher for the solo. Ah, I don't know how to explain it. When we got ready to do a show, a soloist would go to either end of the airfield, ah, seven, eight miles out and do a starting orbit.
Start an orbit?
Well, start just turning out there so you weren't moving out of a particular spot.
Oh....Okay.
And the team, the four ship diamond, they, we would all take off together. All six airplanes would take off together and then....
And is the crowd seeing this or....the take off?
Yeah, yeah. And that's when we would split off the wings and go out to our spots, to, to orbit...
Uh, huh.
...While the team, ah, went around and ah, got ready for the attention pass.
Uh, huh.
And ah, and then we'd come in for...
The attention pass is off the left sonic boom?
Oh, no, no, no.
No?
We'd...the airplane wouldn't go supersonic. It was all altitude.
Oh...you wouldn't have that...
Oh, no.
Oh, jet noise is what you're...
Just jet noise.
Oh, okay.
And ah, so we would, you know, when the two solos... most of the time, would come in and then, we'd have to time it, nobody else had to do the timing. We would do the timing, and...Walt Williams would say, "Go now."
Uh, huh. What is some other terms they would use? I mean, what other things would you say to each other in the air?
Ah, we used first names as our call signs.
Oh....
As our individual call signs. I was "John."
Mum....
And ah, and Walt was Walt and Winston was Win and ah, we knew the voice. You knew the sound of the voice. You knew the name instantly. And ah, so we, as opposed to a call sign that would be given to you in the military jargon, we used our first names. And ah, we, ah, ah, most of the things in the maneuvers and stuff, Williams would call them, and he'd say, "Go now." An example, we had a maneuver called the corkscrew and that was where the wings, ah, Bo Odle on the right wing, John France on the left, John - Bo, he'd say, "Go now," and we'd say, "John. Bo," meaning what we...
Just simple little words.
Yeah. And Go James would stay in the slot and this was very easy to that 'cause they'd just go straight down the runway 500 feet off the runway or something like that, and "O" and ah, I would go down, under, the formation while "O" was on top. And we would roll around those two guys, two and one-half times. So I'd go around, around, and coming back here, actually three, but we'd, we'd, I'd call up, I'd say, "John's on top," which meant I was canopy down to Walt Williams...
So that's what you're saying to him, just so he knows where you are?
So Bo, Bo's supposed to be right here.
Ah...
Underneath. And he'd come up and stop on that wing. I'd have thrown stuff on the other wing, and it's go "WHAM, WHAM." And right in front of the crowd, everybody is smoking and it's a wonderful maneuver. It actually sounds hairy, but it's really not. You always had...
What was the most dangerous maneuver? Do you think?
Oh....
Nothing comes to mind?
So long as the mechanical features of the aircraft were okay, there really, there really weren't any.
Really?
I mean, it was so well orchestrated. It was like a ballet. Everything was...
So everything is hurt...if your plane's fine, you're, you don't care what the stunt is.
You bet. You bet.
I'm surprised at that answer.
Well, it's, ah, I thought it was difficult, some of it was difficult. Ah, we did a line abreast a roof (?). Well, if you're in a formation, you're looking here, and you're looking here and the guy who's in the slot is looking up there, you go a line abreast, that is really hard to hold that position while you're going across the top in the loop and coming down the back side.
Wow!
And then those things were, ah, Williams would say, "Ah, Line abreast, Loop, Go Now." It was always, "Go now."
Okay. I got to tell you, we're almost at the end...
Okay.
And I hate to say this. But is there anything you'd like to add to this tape?
I'd like to say that, ah, the Minute Men were in competition with lots of other, lots, six, seven, ah, aerobatic teams in the world. By the time we finished, the Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels here in the, in the United States and we were better than any of them. And you know, that's easy to say. Well, you were there, and you were a member of it, so you think that. I know that. Absolutely time after time after time, we were compared and they always come in second or third. And that was one of the reasons, I think, politically that Curt LeMay...
National Guard. National Guard, do you think?
Yeah. And I think it is. I really, I will always believe that, that they didn't want that. We put on shows maybe sometimes when we shouldn't have. We would be at the same air show with say, the Thunderbirds, and the weather would get bad, or get down to 1,000 feet or something. If we had a road show, that we'd just go fly it. Well, it always took us up in the clouds and we would come popping out the bottom, you know. And the Thunderbirds...
That's the end. I want to thank you for your interview. It was so interesting.
Okay. (Laughter from France). Well, it was, was a lot of fun. A lot of fun.
And ah... INTERVIEW ENDS IN MID-SENTENCE END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2