Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with George T. Mackin was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. Spelling errors are indicated with [sic]; however, recurring errors in spelling within a single document have been marked the first time and not subsequently.
This is session No. 1 of an interview with George Mackin, who was a pilot during World War II. The date is April 26th, 2006. We're in George's apartment in Lake Oswego, Oregon, and my name is Steve Greenberg.
Hi, George. Let's start when you were in college before the war at the University of Oregon. And you were in ROTC?
Yeah.
Why did you take ROTC then?
Well, in the summer of, oh, about 36, '37, some friends of mine, we kept talking about the situation in Europe. And at that particular time we weren't particularly -- we weren't thinking so much about war. But as time wore on we decided, hey, let's get prepared. We don't want to be a foot soldier. And so we said, okay, let's take ROTC, which we did, and we took it for the two years required. And in the spring of 1941 --
You're doing great.
In the spring of 1941 I was in the living room of the fraternity house, and there were a few guys there by the names of Mahoney, Riley, Hannigan, and a couple more, and we were BS-ing. And they were asking among themselves and to me, what was the interest of going out to take the physical exam at the Air Corps? And they all seemed to want to go do it. Some of these guys were in the ROTC. And I talked to a couple of them, and I said, gee, it would be better to fly than to have to be a foot soldier.
Why did you think that?
Why did I think that? Well, there's a reason with all of the -- whatever pictures you've seen, whatever history you've read, and whatever thing is in the back of your mind, you picture the people of World War I. And I had a connection there. He was a friend of the family, of my dad's, my dad and their family. As a result of the war, it gave him -- he wasn't a good man the rest of his life, just because they had gas over in that area, mustard gas, as I remember it was called. And we didn't -- that was something that didn't appeal to us, and that picture was left in my mind. And therefore, we decided -- or I decided that I'd joined these guys and go up to McArthur Court, which is the place where they were going to give the physicals for the Air Corps.
So you were in ROTC for the Army?
Yeah.
But they said, if you want to be a pilot you can take a physical, so you were going to go to McArthur Court to --
Yeah.
That's a building at the University of Oregon?
No. That's where the big basketball teams are -- they're still playing there.
So you went there with your buddies?
I went there with my buddies. I just want to make a comment there. When I said to these guys, I said, I want to go with you, let's go, they said, hell, you can't make it, Mackin. You're not tall enough. Besides, at that time I wore glasses, but it was just for reading. I said, the heck you say, I'm going to go with you. So you had to be five-six, and I just barely made it.
Well, George, let me ask you something before that. Now, this is 1941, spring?
This is 1941.
The war in Europe was going on?
Yeah.
Was there a lot of talk on the campus about the war in Europe, or did people seem not that interested?
Well, there was -- it was heating up as seemingly the months went by. And the information coming out of Europe was all bad as far as Hitler was concerned, going after the Poles, and he had France by this time. And it was just a question of time, in our minds, that something is going to happen to Britain. And they're our allies and they're our English-speaking friends, and we're going to have to help them.
So you assumed we were going to go to war?
We had -- who knows?
Yeah.
We had the feeling, let's be prepared.
Yes.
The old Boy Scout thing.
Yeah.
So we did that.
So you were going for your physical?
Went for the physical, passed it, took my glasses off, didn't tell them about it. It was one of those easy tests. And the height, we passed, and that was fine.
Were there a lot of young men there?
Oh, yeah. Oh, you bet.
Everyone wanted to be a part of --
Oh, everyone, yeah. That was the thing to do in those days, if you could. Because they had an aviation program and I want to say CYA or civilian --
I don't remember the name, but you're right. It was --
Yeah, and there were those who were taking that. And, of course, the word spread around that to be a pilot would be much, much more -- and the adventure of going to do that.
Had you ever been on a plane before that?
I hadn't thought about that. You know what? I, I can't remember.
Yeah, okay.
Yeah.
So you took the physical and they told you right away that you passed?
They gave -- I don't think it was right away, but we got word. They said they'd notify us. And so on December -- no, no. On June 7th, 1941, the whole ROTC class was ordered to Vancouver barracks, six months before the actual declaration of war.
Why was that?
Training. Well, we went to Vancouver, and from there the whole class was sent to Ford Ord, California. Within -- we were there just getting prepared for two weeks.
So you were out of college then?
We just graduated from college, June 7th graduation; June 8th, Vancouver Barracks.
Were you an officer at this point?
Yeah, we were all second lieutenants.
So the day after you graduated, literally, you were in Vancouver?
Yeah.
And what did you do there?
Well, really it was a -- it was just an organization set up while the Army got information as to where they were going to send us, and we ended up going to Ford Ord, California, and we were assigned to the 7th Division.
George, let me ask you this. At this time you still weren't in pilot training yet?
No, no. Oh, no, no, no, no.
You didn't know if you were going to be a pilot yet?
No, no, no.
Did you think you were at that point? Did you think you were going to be stuck in the Army?
I was waiting for orders.
Okay.
You know, they don't call you on the phone and say, here, you know. All of a sudden you get it in the mail, and that's the way the Army is. But just a little sideline, we went to Ford Ord. And this was the --
It's in Southern California?
That's -- no, around Monterey.
Monterey, I'm sorry.
Yeah, Monterey. And we were there for two or three weeks, maybe a month, and we were -- they were lining us up and getting platoons together and companies together and forming this setup. Whatever was going to happen, they were getting ready for it. So we decided to do -- well, we were just there. And all of a sudden orders came through, and they notified us, and there were several of us in the outfit that had passed the exam. And from there I got orders to go to Tulare, California, which was Rankin's primary school.
Where is Tulare, California? Southern California?
Tulare, middle.
Middle California?
Yeah.
So this was when? This was in the summer of '41?
This was July of '41.
So you got orders for flight training?
Flight training.
You must have been very happy about that.
Oh, gosh, you bet. Mahoney was with me, yeah, several of my buddies, we all got in there. And so we --
How did you get there, first?
Well, what I had, I had an old Model A, and we shared costs with it. It was one of those things that while I was in college I had various things that I had to do to make some money, and the car was important for me to get around. So I bought a -- it cost about $200. Anyway, that's how we got to Tulare.
So you drove down there with your buddies?
Yeah, we drove down, just parked the car. And then I called my brother and told him where it was. Wait a minute -- no, that's not quite right. I'll back up on that because --
Sure.
Because while we were in Tulare there were some lady friends, girlfriends, that were living in Los Angeles, down further south. And Mahoney, who was the organizer of events of this kind, said, come on, let's go for the weekend. So we started after our training period -- on the weekends we were let off at, we were let off at noon on Saturday, and we had to be back Sunday night by 10:00 o'clock. So we'd take off, drive down there.
To Los Angeles?
To Los Angeles. We'd go to the Coconut Grove, as a for instance, and, you know, have fun, and then we'd drive back. And but we usually stayed overnight at the Roosevelt Hotel or, you know, one of those places.
You were in your uniform all the time?
Well, we were just cadets. But yeah, we had our little beanies and whatever we wore. Yeah, we were in uniform.
Well, George, let's talk about the training at Tulare.
Yeah.
So it's the summer now of 1941?
Yeah.
And you're actually in your first flight training?
Yeah.
Do you remember, tell me, what was it like? Classes?
Well, yeah. We got up at 5:30, as I remember, and exercised at 6:00 until 6:45, and then there was breakfast and then class at 8:00. And we went to weather classes, the works as far as --
Aviation?
Aviation.
Mechanics?
Yeah.
Was it interesting to you?
I'm not a mechanical type of guy. I'm --
That's unusual for a pilot.
Yeah, I know, yeah, but I learned. When it was necessary I could take ahold of it and handle it. I came from a family where this was absolutely necessary. I had -- it wasn't that I couldn't learn, didn't like it. It was forced down my throat when I was a kid working in a garage and a filling station.
I gotcha.
And all those things. Kind of turns you off; me, anyway.
So you started with classes, and you didn't -- nothing with airplanes at the start, just classes?
I'd have to think about that. Because I think they took us out to the flight line, and we took some -- we had -- every one of us had instructors. And these were young guys who had been in aviation for not that long, but they were really pretty clever, you see, and --
Pretty cool?
-- and they were cool to us. We learned from them.
Do you remember your very first flight?
I don't, yeah. Just --
So the idea is you had classes like in the morning, and then in the afternoon you would go out on the flight line and started flying?
Yeah.
Did you take to flying quickly, do you feel?
I think so, yeah. I liked it. If I like something I'll go after it. And that's -- it was a thrill. And the more I got into it, the more interested I became.
Do you remember what the first plane was, the type of plane?
Yeah, it was a PT Stearman.
Describe the Stearman.
Well, yeah. It's a two-wing job with a wooden prop that you could do all kinds of exercises in. It was just great as far as doing loops and rolls and figure 8's and all of the other maneuvers that --
When you say two-wing, it was a biplane? One wing up and one wing down?
Yeah, yeah.
And it was open cockpit?
Yeah.
The instructor was in the front and you were in the back?
Yeah, right, yeah.
Just like you see in the movies?
Yeah.
Leather helmet?
That's it, yeah.
Wind blowing in your hair?
Yeah, that was it. And all the more thrill when you could have the wind and the rain and the whole bit running at you. It was all the more of a challenge.
It was a good plane to fly?
It was a great plane to fly, and it was one of those that you could trust after a period of time. You felt like you could do things with it and it would react.
What was the basic flight training? What did it consist of?
Well, most of it was just take-off, landings. And then as we got into it, the more we got into it, the maneuverability, the ability -- they showed us how to maybe make a loop, turn it on its back, and then come around and drop it down. And boy, when I first did that one, that was, you know, a strange, strange feeling, but you certainly got used to it. And you would do end runs.
That's some kind of a maneuver?
Yeah, that's a maneuver. So this lasted three months. We went up for a test ride. I can remember the reason for the test ride was because -- the day before we had a pretty good party in Los Angeles. And we got back, and it was -- we had to be back by -- we were in by 11:00 o'clock, just barely, and then we had to get up at 6:00 or 5:30. And I was not feeling too well. But as very, very much of a coincidence, they put your name up there on the blackboard as you go into the flight line; check ride, Mackin. There were two or three others, but they never tell you when they're going to give you a check ride.
A check ride is a test?
A check ride is a test, and this test was by the commander who was a West Pointer.
Oh.
Yeah.
Pretty strict?
Very. So I passed it, thank goodness, but it was a toughy.
What would happen if you didn't pass it? You would have been out?
That's it.
One time?
One time, that's it, bang.
Now, this is still the summer? You were there for three or four months?
We were there for the summer.
Pretty hot there in the summer?
Very, oh, yeah.
It was 100 degrees plus?
Oh, yeah.
Living conditions were decent, like a barracks?
We had barracks, oh, yeah. It was fine.
How was the food?
Food was good.
No problem?
Yeah. And there were many times when, as a dodo, you had to eat a square meal, and you'd sit there and take your fork and have your food and bring it up, straight up in front of you, and then square it off and put it in your mouth.
They treated you like that?
They were -- we were dodos.
You were 21 at the time?
Yeah.
Let's say 21, 22?
Yeah, yeah. Because I stayed out between my sophomore and junior year in college to work.
Okay. So you were 22 years old?
Yeah.
What were you? You were an aviation cadet? Is that what the title was?
That's what they called us, an aviation cadet.
So you were pretty low on the totem pole?
Oh, sure, the lowest you can get. Well, you got to start someplace, yeah.
Now, were you with -- your friends were still with you? Mahoney?
Mahoney was there. Others, they -- you didn't always follow each other. Some of them went to Taft, some went elsewhere. You didn't know whether the place -- whether they were going to have a different kind of aircraft or whatever. You just -- it was just the luck of the draw, or the lack of it.
So you had people from all over the country?
People mostly from the West Coast.
West Coast?
We had, for instance, we had a fellow from Idaho who was the center on the Idaho basketball team, six-foot so and so. They were from Boise, from all over the Northwest.
And the West, okay.
Yeah.
So this training, that went on for about three months. Do you remember when you first -- did you solo at this place?
Oh, you had to solo, yeah.
Do you remember that --
Yeah.
-- when you soloed the first time?
Yes.
Tell me about that.
Well, the solo was -- I had gotten it down to the point where I thought there was no question that I could do it, but you anticipate, well, what would go wrong? And you did it.
No problem?
No, no, no, there was no problem.
What did you have to do on the solo? What did they expect you to do?
Well, the fellow sat in the back, and he told you to do certain things, whether -- you know, make a 90 right, keep your speed at 75, make a dive, put it on its back, with the reminder -- he would say, now, you put it on her back. But remember, I have belt back here, too, and you better have yours fastened. And so we'd put it on its back and spin it out, bring it down.
So the whole thing, the training, you thought that was good training?
Oh, yeah, oh yeah; and fun, in a strict way. There was another part about it that got a little bit testy, and that was, the word got out -- Mahoney and I were rooming together. The word got out that we were second lieutenants, and the rest of these guys were dodos. They weren't commissioned yet.
Oh, I see.
And so they -- the fellow who was the captain of the upper class, you know, the upper class, he said, I want to have an inspection. So he said, I'm going to inspect your closet and so forth. And lo and behold, I had put my second lieutenant's badge on my -- my second lieutenant's -- not badge, bars -- in my shaving kit, you know, one of those zipper deals.
Sure.
And he happened to open that up and he said, aren't you a little premature, Mackin? And nothing much for me to say. Yes, sir, I guess. But then he knew, and we became good friends.
What did it matter if they knew if you were a second lieutenant?
Well --
They would have picked on you more?
Well, they -- it was one of those things, that we had attained something, and here we were dodos again. This is where we belonged. You weren't second lieutenants; you were still dodos, yeah. But it so happened that in December of that year and when I was an advanced --
Let's stop for a second then.
Yeah.
So you finished up. You soloed, you were there about three months, which means now, let's say, it was September or so?
Yeah.
You get transferred to another base?
We went to Taft, California.
Taft, is that -- where is that?
That is over south of San Francisco down the coast. There were oil fields all around.
So this is the next level of training?
This is the basic. You know, you have primary where you fly the one aircraft.
Okay.
The next was the BT-13, which was another aircraft. I can't remember the -- it was a single wing.
A more advanced airplane?
It was a more advanced aircraft. It was an aircraft that you really had to be careful with with your maneuverability. If you got it over too far, in some cases it will spin out on you, and --
Okay. Well, let's talk about going to Taft then. That was September or so of '41?
Yeah.
Still '41?
Still '41.
The war hasn't officially started yet?
Yeah, yeah. We were three months in Tulare.
Okay.
And then by that time it was about September, September, yeah, and then three months in Taft.
And the training there, what was that like? Same thing?
Same thing, getting used to the aircraft, getting more confidence, a different type of aircraft, see how good you were in maneuverability, reaction time, and the various things that -- you're getting now -- you've got more confidence. You know you can fly, and so you can just go from there.
It was a two-person airplane?
Yeah.
You still went up with an instructor?
Oh, yeah; oh, yeah.
Did you fly at night now, for example?
We didn't there.
Not yet, but later?
But we went down to Phoenix, yeah.
Okay. So Taft was just more advanced with an airplane that was more --
More powerful, yeah; second wing, yeah.
Like a military airplane?
Yeah, yeah, right.
Okay. Classes there, as well?
Classes there. Still about as intense, but they were more accepting you. You'd graduated, so now let's get down to business, type of thing. And so there was a little -- some things were tougher. They went into greater detail on weather confirmations, the different kind of clouds that you would run into and what could be in those clouds. So don't do this and don't do that, and so forth. And it was, it was -- to me, it was a little more fun to be in basic. Because you were over that initial phase of primary, the uncertainty, are you going to be there tomorrow? And now you're accepted.
How many -- for example, in primary, half the people didn't make it, would you guess?
There were quite a few that were washed out.
Just got washed out?
Yeah, that's what they called it.
Yeah, wash out?
Yeah.
Was the daily routine about the same at Taft in terms of you had your evenings to yourself and the weekends?
Yeah, a little more freedom; a little more, not much.
No?
No. The weekends were free, and we still went down to --
To Los Angeles?
Yeah.
You liked Los Angeles?
Well, that's where the gals were. These gals were girls that were in school with us.
Oh.
They were from California. A lot of gals from California went to school at Oregon.
Yeah, okay. So you knew them from school?
Yeah.
Okay.
They weren't new, from that point of view.
Any special events that you want to talk about that happened at Taft? Any unusual flight experiences?
Well --
Any problems, you know, that you experienced that --
I didn't -- yeah. There was -- there was one thing that was very unsettling. It was the first thing really that I -- that one could observe that you knew that you were in a dangerous game. And that was when you come in on a -- for a landing, you take your downwind leg, and you're about 500 feet. The downwind leg, which is -- you land into the wind, and so your wind was behind you. Then you'd make a 45 --
A turn, 45 degrees?
A turn, and then you'd make another 45 for your final. And it was on this occasion that -- when this fellow that was, that I -- he wasn't right in front of me but was two aircraft ahead. He made a turn, and it was one of those turns that I mentioned earlier, and he went in.
He stalled?
He had turned that aircraft and gave it -- he'd given it too much rudder, and the rudder -- and then down he went, and that was it.
Just like that?
Just like that. And the plane was -- they warned us, don't do this. I mean, take it easy. You had to get the feel of the aircraft.
He was killed?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
No, it's a dangerous business here.
Yeah. That was my first experience with that.
Did you have to go land someplace else then, or did you just --
I don't recall. But no, I think I -- he was off the -- he didn't land on the runway.
Out in the field?
Out in the field. And so we just came on in and landed.
Yeah, yeah. So that training, that training lasted for --
That was three months.
September, October, November?
Yeah.
So when you were done with that, then you were really feeling -- you're starting to feel like a pilot?
Yeah, yeah, oh, yeah.
You had solo flights there at Taft?
Oh, I don't remember that they did. We were through with the soloing so much, but we had to get graded. We had instructors the same way, and if you passed, you passed. So it wasn't just a one shot like in primary where you took this flight up, and the commander said yes or no, and you were through.
You were starting to feel pretty confident at this point?
Yeah. I liked what I was experiencing, yeah.
At that point are you thinking about what kind of planes you want to fly once you become a full-fledged pilot?
Well, I think at that particular time with my size, and I didn't feel -- I wanted to be a fighter pilot, you know.
Everyone does.
Yeah, everyone -- the excitement, you could just see yourself, you know, sitting in there, machine gun in the way and the enemy in front of you. No, so that was true. Yeah, I wanted to be a fighter pilot, yeah.
So let's say it's November now of '41. Now, where did you get transferred to next, George?
Well, we went down to Luke Field in Phoenix.
For the next level of training?
That was the advanced.
They called that advanced?
Yeah.
And the plane there was more advanced, too?
That was an AT-6.
Powerful?
Nice, more powerful, easier to handle than the BT-13. But a good aircraft, yeah.
This was more like a regular military aircraft?
Yeah.
Close?
It was getting closer; a little more power, a little more maneuverability, easier to handle than the BT-13. I don't -- yeah. And that's where, when I came in off the flight line on December 7th, I remember it was a Sunday --
You were flying?
We had just come off the flight line. We had been flying.
Now, at this point you were working six, seven days a week now?
No, no, no. You're working your five days, and then you had Saturday afternoon off and Sunday.
Okay.
You still -- they were still keeping you on that schedule. They didn't think they could work you seven days when you're young like that, yeah.
So it's December 7th now, Pearl Harbor Day?
Yeah.
Tell us how you heard about Pearl Harbor.
Well, as I mentioned, I came off the flight line and came in, and my buddy was -- had the radio on. And he was standing, you know, just standing there aghast. He says, do you hear what I'm hearing? And I said, well, no. I just got off the flight line. Well, he said, we've just been bombed by the Japs. What? So this was my first experience in knowing about it.
Did you know where Pearl Harbor was?
Oh, sure.
Everybody knew that?
Oh, yeah.
That was a famous base?
Oh, yeah.
Then you stood around the radio listening to the report?
To get as much information as we could. And then, what's next? What's going to happen? You know, then, you know, this was the beginning of what we thought -- I mean, this is it. I mean, that was why we were there in Phoenix. That's why we were doing what we were doing. There it is.
You saw it coming. Now, did things change at the base like the next day immediately, the pace of training or --
Well, there was -- I think that people got more, instead of a feeling of gallantry -- not gallantry, but just freedom of movement, all of a sudden things began to tighten up, personalities. This is it. Now, let's get down to business.
Leaves were cancelled?
You bet. The whole scene changed. It was a new mindset, and we had to --
Did they have like a big meeting with the people in training and the pilots to talk about it, or just --
Not at that time.
They just basically said, guys, this is the real thing now?
Well, we knew it. They didn't have to tell us.
Right.
I mean, it was in the papers. We got the papers. You know, you could just see the headlines.
Do you remember, did you listen to Roosevelt's speech?
I did.
Declaration of war?
Oh, yeah, you bet. What a speech that was.
You remember that?
A day in infamy, yeah, you bet. We all heard that, yeah. It was --
So in December now you're training. Did your training change, do you think, as a result, the pace of it?
No, I don't think -- not that I would know. I wouldn't, you know, appreciably know. It was, it was -- I think there was a feeling among everybody of more businesslike. We were, this is it.
Yeah.
And there wasn't any question of "if." We're in it; now, let's do our job.
Okay. Now, the training there at Taft, how long did that last after Pearl Harbor?
Luke Field.
I'm sorry, Luke. You're in Phoenix?
Yeah. Graduated February 1942.
A pilot?
A pilot.
At this point you're a pilot with wings and you're a second lieutenant?
Yeah, right.
Successfully completed flight school?
Yeah. That was the --
Now, were some of your friends still with you?
Well, when we graduated they told us where we were going to go. And I thought, you know, gosh, I'd like to go to -- you didn't know. It depends on where they needed you.
They didn't ask you, though, did they?
Oh, no, no, no.
Nobody asked you?
Well, they knew that, you know. But the way they did it in those days was, they would say -- like today, they would take into consideration height and all that sort of stuff. But in those days, how you -- it's where were you as far as the alphabet goes. So A to H went to fighter school. And then I told you this fellow Harris, who was the center on the basketball team, he went to fighter school. And here was I, five-six, and I was sent to Boise, Idaho. They were just starting a bomb group up there.
You know, the fighter cockpit was pretty small and the bomber cockpit was pretty big.
Well, in comparison.
In comparison?
Oh, yeah. And the fact that I had to wear two pillows so I could handle the -- that's the way the Army was.
A to H over here?
Yeah, H, I, J, K, we need you down someplace else. So they were just starting this base -- not starting the base. The base had been there -- Gowan Field in Boise had been there a long time, but they turned it into a military base.
It was a civilian base?
Oh, yeah; oh, yeah.
So in February now of '42 you get orders to go to Boise for bomber training?
Yeah, yeah. Well, we didn't know bomber training.
Oh.
No, they didn't tell us. When we got out in the field they had an AT-6 there, which is a twin or a single -- anyway, that's all we had. We had to wait until the B-17s started coming in, because it was early.
But when you got there you knew it was a bomber school at that point?
Well, this is what we were told. But where is it?
There's no planes?
Yeah, yeah. That's what we told, that this is going to be the 303 bomb group.
Did you drive your Model A?
I did drive it. I did drive it up there, which is -- and it was from there that I called my brother, who was younger than I am, and I told him where I had parked it, and he came over from Portland and picked it up. I think I put it on the base, you know, someplace.
Because you weren't going to be able to use it?
No. I knew from then I was gone.
Yeah, okay. So you get to the base there in Boise in March or so of 1942. What did you do until the planes came? What did they have you guys doing?
Well, they had classes and the same old stuff, weather classes and other stuff that they would conjure up. We had exercises. We had the normal military do-and-not-do stuff. But they kept us busy. And it wasn't too long before the planes started to arrive. They would try to make do on whatever aircraft was there. I think they had a B-47, and we could take turns taking that up. And so it wasn't as if --
There was some fun?
Yeah, we got some flying in. But the B-17, no.
Had you seen a B-17 before this? Had you ever seen one?
No.
Do you remember when they first flew them in to the base? Do you remember the first time you saw a B-17?
Yeah, oh, yeah. That was -- I was on the base.
Were you impressed?
Well, you know, I was wondering whether I could handle this thing, this monster, this monstrous thing. From where I came from and then to get into something like this, wow. I can remember getting into it and sitting in the seat. Just to keep it on the runway, you know, you'd give it too much power -- with four engines, you'd give it too much power on the right, and the thing would start taking off into the -- just the practice run, you know.
Right.
And that's all they wanted, just the maneuverability, just to get the thing going. So that took a lot of practice.
Yeah. But at first it seemed very large to you?
Oh, terrible, yeah.
By today's standards it's tiny?
No, no. Yeah, right.
Now, were there just pilots there or did they have crew?
No, no, no. This is where they began to put together the whole group. In other words, you had maintenance, you had the whole --
This is the 303rd bomber organizing itself?
This is the beginning of the 303rd bomber group.
Were you assigned to a crew at this point?
Not yet.
Not yet?
No, no, no. They got us all together and were just -- at that time there were just so many questions and so many answers that they had to get for the questions that it was kind of tough.
The enlisted men were there? They were going to be part of the crew, the gunners, the radio, the navigators?
Slowly but surely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So this base was growing?
You bet.
Was Boise a nice place in 1942?
Yeah, it was a good little town.
A tiny little town then?
Yeah, it wasn't very big.
Did you have much time off the base at that point?
Yeah, we had some time that we could go off the base. And there were places where you could go to -- they had dance halls, like they did in those days, like what they used to have here in Portland in the old days where you could go up on 21st and Broadway or -- 21st and whatever.
Burnside?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So you had some recreation?
We had recreation.
Did you get any leave to come back to Portland at all? You were from Portland?
Yeah, we did, but we didn't get that leave right away. We got it after we had been there a couple of months, and then we were going to get orders to go from there -- well, let's see. The other intervening thing, once the planes came in and we started maneuvers and practice, flying formation together, they sent us down to Alamogordo; Alamogordo, New Mexico, yeah. And we were out in the -- boy, that area during the summer -- this wasn't quite summer. But even so, the winds would come up about 4:00 in the afternoon, and the sand would sift through the tents that we were sleeping in. But it was down there, and all we did most of the day was just practice landings.
Well, let's go back to Boise for a second, George --
Yeah.
-- and talk about when the planes came. Talk about how you were taught to fly a B-17.
Well, I initially started to talk about it when they put you in the seat, and you had to just practice to go down there, practice runway straight.
Just to taxi?
Yeah, just to taxi itself. And that was, at first it was kind of a threat, and pretty soon you got the drift of it.
But at first this seemed like a very big and powerful --
Oh, yeah. It was something, for me anyway, to contend with. But pretty soon you got the feel of it, and as you get a good feeling, then that builds confidence.
Yes.
And once you have the confidence then, sure, you could do it. And a few practice take-offs in the copilot seat -- you stay in the copilot seat for quite a while until you -- and then when you got in the air you were able to maybe fly some formations, practice landings, take off at night, land at night, things of that kind.
Did the cockpit seem very complicated to you compared to what you were used to?
Oh, yes; oh, yeah.
A lot of instruments?
Yeah, and you had to know what those were for.
Did you have to memorize them? Did they have a blindfold test for the instruments where you had to pick out an instrument with a blindfold on?
No, I don't remember that. They might have.
We had that, yeah.
Did you?
Oh, yeah.
I don't remember that.
Now, George, when you were first flying with an instructor, was it just you and the instructor or was there a crew on the plane, as well?
For awhile it was just -- well, I think there was a flight engineer.
Yeah.
I don't think a full crew, no, but we had a flight engineer and I think we had a navigator. And sometimes while we were there we would take flights to different areas. Maybe we'd go to Salt Lake. I know we went to Salt Lake at times and practiced landings at Salt Lake City.
Describe a landing with the B-17. Describe to me what you remember the landing was like compared to the other planes you had flown.
Well, this was quite an experience. Because you bring it in -- you'd bring it in. You start at 500 feet. You know, normally this is -- well, you know this from your experience. And you were on your downwind leg and then you were on your final. And the normal procedure was to pull the old throttle back, get her down so that you were doing maybe 90 miles an hour as you came in over the end of the field, and then keep your nose down. And my biggest problem at first, and I think with everybody else, was how far off the concrete were you when the wheels were down, you know, without --
You were, you were 15, 20 feet above (inaudible) in the pilot seat?
Yeah, yeah. So it was a question of being able to analyze where your horizon was and then where you were without dropping it in, you know, just, yeah. And you know from your experience.
And the wheel was way back behind you?
Yeah.
It's heavy. I mean, it was not very -- compared to the other planes you were flying, it was like flying more like a truck than it was like a sports car?
Well, you know, that's what people would think.
Yeah.
But at first, yes. After a while you could -- you felt that you could take that little mother and you can do with her what you wanted her to do, and she wasn't going to come back at you. You wanted her to do so and so, and, by golly, let's talk it over and let's do it. It was fun that way. It was a challenge, really.
Yeah. So gradually in this training then in Boise you started flights and more flights and cross country flights?
We did a lot of cross country, because this was practice. Some of it was at night.
Yeah?
Yeah, yeah.
Did you, then you just felt more and more -- as you did that you became more and more confident?
More confident.
Right.
Well, and by this time you were getting acquainted with some other fellows, navigators. We had to have navigators. We didn't have to have bombardiers on an occasion like that. But there were people that went along with us, and we had to perform properly, you know, to -- it took us a little while to go from copilot to first pilot. You know, you're sitting in the copilot seat, but you get over there in the pilot seat, was what you wanted to get to.
Sure.
And that was -- and in Boise we had fellows there that would teach us, and it got to the point where we felt like we were -- but going overseas there were pilots, copilots. The copilot could fly the airplane. The pilot maybe had been in the Army a little longer, had graduated, you know, had a little more seniority, which -- you know what the Army is like.
When you were in Boise, who was the commanding -- there was a colonel in command of the squadron?
There was Colonel Marion, Chuck Marion.
What was he like?
He was an easygoing, nice guy.
Not scary?
No, no. But as we went along, he -- let's see, where did he -- he ended up at Wing Headquarters over in England.
He was liked by the rest of the men?
He was liked, yeah, but not really a heavy disciplinarian, and I think probably he was not a West Pointer. He was a career military man, and that was unusual.
Very unusual.
Yeah.
I know it was true even when I was in in the late '60s, a big distinction in people's mind between a West Pointer and an ROTC.
Oh, yeah.
Ring knockers. Did they call them ring knockers?
Oh, yeah.
Boy, if you weren't a West Pointer you weren't going to get very far, right?
Well, yeah, yeah, sort of that way, but it shook itself out as the war went on.
They needed people?
Yeah.
George, any exciting events in Boise that you wanted to talk about in terms of any flight experiences that were interesting, unusual? For example, they trained you in emergency procedures all the time, I'm certain?
Oh, sure, yeah.
Lost an engine, lost two engines?
Yeah, yeah.
Practice, practice, practice?
Yeah, mostly that's what it was. But I don't think in Boise we had that. It was when I got a little further along.
Okay. We'll talk about that. So during this time in Boise you got -- did you fall in love with the B-17?
Well, I got to admire it. Love is a pretty -- yeah, it's a good word. I got used to its quirks, like all aircraft have, you know.
Were there some things that you particularly had to watch for that could be fatal if you didn't pay attention?
No, no. Just the power of the engines, the way -- you get a feel for what the aircraft can do and not do at different, at different speeds, you know, and you could put it in a dive and see how it reacted when you pulled it out. You could see when -- and we went through some of these things. You could tell when, as I've already mentioned to you, the landing of the aircraft. And, yeah, I was getting closer to being able to drop it in with a couple of feet and not have the bounce that you get. And so I think it was just getting to the point where you're acquainted with the aircraft.
Okay.
And you respected what it will do, but you knew what it couldn't do, and then there were certain things you didn't want to do with it.
Yep. Did you start doing formation at Boise?
We did somewhat, not too much. Mostly our time in Boise was spent on navigation and travel. We would take trips to Denver, turn around, and come back.
So just long flights, getting used the plane?
Yeah, we had long flights, yeah. You get used to the men that were on board and the weather experiences. They told you, cumulous clouds, don't go into them.
Yeah.
And then, you know, when you're on a raid, that didn't come into play.
(Inaudible.)
Yeah, yeah.
Talk about, you know, the B-17. There was no heating. What did you wear when you were flying? It was cold inside there.
Yeah.
What did you wear when you were flying in the winter?
When you say there was no heating, I think we had some way of getting a little heat into it.
In the cockpit?
Yeah, we did. My -- you know, I'm having trouble thinking of what we did wear. We didn't wear long underwear, that I remember, you know.
You had a leather jacket?
Oh, yeah, we had the old A2 jackets, sure.
Yeah, I had one of those.
Yeah.
And boots?
Yeah, and boots, and then a flying suit that you had with the pocket down here and so forth.
Okay.
So I don't think that's something I would necessarily talk about, yeah.
Okay. Then, George, what happened then? From Boise what was the next step?
Well, the next major step, as I told you, was Alamogordo. We went down there for two or three weeks for practice landings and so forth.
Because it was windy, they wanted you to --
We could practice in the wind and practice - really, to get this explained, if we were going to go to Africa, for instance -- yeah, we didn't know we were going to -- by this time, maybe they knew but they weren't telling us.
This is now the spring of 1942?
Yeah, it's early.
April, May, June?
So it's early.
We still hadn't even landed in North Africa.
And really at this particular time they were just forming the 8th Air Force, and this was done back in Georgia, getting the planes together, organizing -- oh, jeez, what a hell of a job they had to do, the guys at the top, military people. So anyway, the next major move was to Fort Ord. No, no, El Paso.
The whole bomb group?
The whole bomb group.
Now, just explain the organization of a bomb group for me.
Well, the organization of a bomb group considers -- you have Headquarters Company and you have the various people who have responsibilities as to security and organizations. They used to have a word for it, and I can't remember what it was now. It's an S -- maybe you'll remember.
S2, intelligence?
Yes, S2. You know, you had your intelligence, you had your organization people, you had the rest of the, you know, personnel, which is a major problem, and then you had four squadrons. And at that time you had the group and then the squadrons. And each squadrons consisted of, at that time -- as I understand, it's supposed to have 12 aircraft, and then you had a certain spot in the field where that was, where the squadrons were.
12 planes in a squadron, so around 48 or 50 planes in a bomb group?
Yeah. And those planes were to be serviced by the armament, mechanics, the guns, the gas, you know, the whole bit.
How many people were in a bomb group?
Oh, you'd have -- I have to be careful because it varied so much as we went through it. But if you had -- you know, you talk about armament, and there were quite few people in the armament. I'm trying to think of, my mind just doesn't seem to -- except that each aircraft, I would say to maintain it properly, you had about 15 guys.
Per plane?
Per plane.
Oh, yeah, they're right there.
I mean, not including the crew. I mean, that's armament. It's all the rest of them to take care of it. And the crew that took care of the engines, those are the guys that we really depended on.
So the bomb group was 1,000 to 2,000 people?
Yeah, 1500 to 2,000, yeah, oh, yeah.
Was there good camaraderie among the officers? Was there a big distinction in ranks or was it pretty friendly?
Oh, it varied wherever you go. You always had the guys that were popular and then you had the grumpies and then you had the West Pointers. And we all -- it just went with the flow.
Everybody got along?
Well, yeah, yeah.
And you went with the flow?
You went with the flow, yeah. Otherwise, you're not going to stay there very long. You're going to get out. And they'll get you the hell out of there, and they did.
Is that right?
Oh, yeah.
They can send you to some pretty bad places?
Well, that's the trouble. You better get along.
After Alamogordo, now you're down to El Paso?
Yeah.
More training?
That was the training point, the last training point before we went overseas. We didn't know it at the time, yeah.
El Paso, this would have been more like the summer now of '42 or '43?
Summer of '42. Because we arrived in England September 4th, according to --
Okay. So we're very close to that.
Yeah. We were at El Paso for just a couple of months, two or three months.
You keep getting sent to these places that are very hot in the summer.
Well, it was summer and, you know, the weather is such where you're flying, you got to go into flying weather. This is Biggs Field.
El Paso?
Yeah, Biggs Field.
Now, George, at this point were you put together into crews?
This is the beginning of the crew period, of putting crews together.
Do you remember your first crew assignment?
Well, I'll tell you what happened to me. Because of my ROTC experience -- most of these fellows were, you know, just out of flying school -- I had gotten into Headquarters Company. So I was with, not S2 but part of S2. And, you know, my -- they base that on what my experience was. I had more experience than some of these guys; maybe six months more, you know, having been in the ROTC.
Plus you had a college degree?
I had a college degree. So they thought, well, we'll put you over here. So I didn't say anything, but that's the way it ended up, that I was at Headquarters Company. And I can tell you later about what that amounted to. So anyway, we left Biggs Field and we went by train. The whole group was going overseas.
Before we go there, let's finish. What was, what was -- you were still flying in --
Oh, yeah, we were still flying.
But you had crews, and are you practicing bombing now?
Well, not really, no, not yet.
Okay.
As I remember, we -- no.
What happened at Headquarters Company that you were going to talk about?
Well, as I say, I was assigned to Headquarters Company so I didn't get a crew.
Okay.
And my roommate was the PR man of the base, a fellow by the name of Gordon Donnelly, great guy.
He was a pilot?
No, no.
PR?
No, he was PR.
He would talk to the press?
Yeah, he was my buddy, and we roomed together. Actually, we roomed together overseas. It wasn't until -- well, anyway, this can come up later, I think.
Okay, fine.
Yeah.
Well, you know what, George. This is a good time to end. This is the end of session No. 1, and we'll resume again soon.
Okay.
Thank you, George.
Thank you, Steve. END OF CD FILE NUMBER ONE AND BEGINNING OF CD FILE NUMBER TWO
This is disk No. 2 of the interview with George Mackin on his World War II experiences. It's May 25th, and we're in George's home in Lake Oswego, Oregon. My name is Steve Greenberg. George, when we finished up the first disk you were in El Paso, Texas. It was in the summer of '43 -- the summer of '42. And just before the unit shipped out, you wanted to talk about a particular experience in El Paso.
I wanted to talk about this experience because it was, it was my first real reaction to what we were all getting into. And we were in a training phase all during our stay there in El Paso. And so on -- I can remember. It pretty, very, very well. It was on a Saturday, and I had, I had gone to our squadron CO and had asked him if we could have a training flight back to Boise, Idaho. And he asked me how long and so forth. And I said, well, just overnight, just to get our practice on night flying and to get back and be able to get just that much more experience. And he agreed. And so this was, I think it was Friday, maybe Saturday morning. And we had the flight all lined up, and we were going to take off Saturday evening about 6:00 o'clock, 6:30, and it was all set. And then about mid-afternoon the CO of the squadron came to me and said, George, you can't go. I've got something else for you. And I was, of course, disappointed and so forth, but the whole flight was all set up. But we had -- and the crew on this were just a minor crew because it was just a training flight. And so -- but we had two or three other first pilots that I had talked to, and they wanted to go back for a visit. And then we also had another officer who was in the radio compartment to handle the radio as we progressed. And, as I say, the CO said no way for me, but the flight could go ahead.
He wanted you to do something else?
He wanted me to do something else.
Okay.
I didn't ask him what.
Sure.
I didn't object. So the flight took place, and it was -- it didn't take off that early at 6:00. I think they started around 8:30 or 9:00, thinking it was about a four-hour flight at least from there back to Boise. And the story that came out of this catastrophe was that they took off, and there was a -- as they climbed to altitude they -- a storm had developed in Mexico, and there was no information given to the weather people in El Paso. And we were right across the area from Juarez, which is Mexico. And as the flight got into -- and I had reason to -- I'll tell you later how this happened. The reason I know is that the flight got to maybe 10,000 feet, and all of a sudden this storm was so powerful that, when they got into this altitude, that it took the aircraft and split it in two. Everybody was killed except one, and this fellow was the radio operator in the radio compartment. He was a lieutenant going along for the ride. And some good buddies were killed.
It's a dangerous business.
That was my first real realization of what we were up against, and that was a shocker.
It sure was, George.
But anyway, the incident happened. I found -- and the reason I know more about it is because the radio operator, because of where the aircraft had come apart just aft of the radio compartment, he was thrown free. He had his, luckily he had his parachute on. He came down and was the only survivor. And I have talked with him over the years many, many times, and I've seen him, and we've become pretty darn good buddies.
He continued with the bomber group?
Yeah, he went overseas. He was in the special department.
Talking about going overseas, George, now, what was the next thing that -- you got orders to --
We got orders, and the orders said that we were to get on a train and go to Fort Dix in New Jersey, and from there -- and the information came out later we were to go over on the Queen Mary. And we left Fort Dix --
Let me ask you this. The whole --
No, no, no. The crew, the men that had their assigned crews were not on this. They were to fly the aircraft over.
How did they fly -- what was the route for flying the aircraft, do you remember?
Well, the aircraft went -- they flew from, they went into Newfoundland and then to Iceland, and from Iceland they went over to Scotland.
Okay.
And landed. And then the --
So the flight crews, they were flying the planes over while the rest of the squadron -- not squadron -- the bomb group was being transported?
And there was more than just our group on this aircraft. There were 15,000 men.
On the Queen Mary?
On the Queen Mary.
Which was set to hold how many, normally?
I can't tell you what that number.
It wasn't that many.
But it was a beautiful, beautiful ship. The dining room was expansive. However, the men -- because it took four days to get over there, the men were, slept in shifts, eight hours in the sack and 16 hours off. And they had their area, and we were assigned the cubicle -- not the cubicle, you know, whatever they call the ship's -- the staterooms. They had the staterooms, and they had the beds so packed that you had to get down on your knees in order to get between -- they set up so where one was there were four. You probably know about that.
George, were the orders to go to England sooner than you expected? Was that a surprise?
No, no. Any time, they said.
Okay.
So our time -- actually, we were down there for quite a little while in Texas, and -- but the timing was such that we were pretty well ready.
And this was now like September of '42?
We left September 1st, as I remember, or thereabouts, on the Queen Mary.
Okay.
And we went out to -- and this is another good story, because this actually happened. We were out about 24 hours, and the skipper came on and said that the wolf pack is out in front of us.
The wolf pack was what?
The wolf pack was the German submarines that were out looking. And so the skipper said, we're going to turn back and we're going to go several hours back, and then we're going to circle north. And we can outrun them because we can do 32 knots, and they can't keep up with us. So we're over -- we're going up north, Iceland, and then from Iceland on down. And he didn't go into any more details than that, but that was enough for us. The skipper told us that. And we were still in the dining room, the huge, beautiful dining room of the Queen Mary.
Beautiful wood and --
Oh, gosh, it was something, the original Queen Mary.
Yes.
So we were sitting there and eating dinner, and all of a sudden the radio came on and they said, we have Lord Haw-Haw, who is a spokesman for the Germans. He is an ex-Brit who has turned and is doing the work for the Nazis. And his words were, and I'll never forget them, he said, we just wanted to announce to you and all the world that we just sank the Queen Mary. And here we were sitting there, and we just couldn't believe what this was all about, as if he knew something that we didn't know. So anyway, to make a -- we kept on going back and then headed north. It took us about four days.
What did you do on board ship during the day?
Well, you know, whatever you can do in confined quarters. We went out on deck and walked and talked and --
Free time, in other words? There weren't any military duties?
Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Boring?
Yeah, just boring.
It was all Air Force or Army or --
It was all, apparently it was Air Force. It must have been -- I can't answer that. Because the, we had all of our men and, of course, we didn't have that many. But, you know, in retrospect I can't, I can't remember if there were any infantry. There could have been, you know, however the Army conducted it, or the Air Corps.
Were the officers treated differently than the enlisted men on the ship? You had different quarters?
We had different quarters, yeah. The men slept just all over, you know, and, as I say, they slept in shifts. They didn't have the rooms that we had, but that's the way it was.
What was the food like?
It was fine, as I remember, yeah.
And the weather was decent, so was it pretty calm?
We didn't have, we didn't have, as I recall, any bad weather; just because whatever came, the Queen Mary could handle very, very easily. It's a huge ship.
George, was the talk among your fellow officers and so forth now more serious about the war? I mean, you're heading over to the combat zone.
Well --
Was there a lot more talk about what's going to go on over there?
Well, there was all kinds of scuttlebutt. Our main thrust I think, as I recall, was, where are we going to be in England and just what the future was going to be. We didn't know.
Right.
And they, they weren't about to tell us. So at least we knew that we were going to England, and we were one of the first four groups in England. We landed in Scotland at the Firth of Fourth, one of those tremendous inlets that Scotland has where a ship of this size could unload. And from there we went by vehicle, or whatever we had, and drove to Molsworth, which was our base.
That was your base?
That was the base for the next --
What were your first impressions of England? Molsworth was in Scotland or England?
No, no, it was Northern England.
Northern England.
We were close to North Hampton, and North Hampton was in the eastern part of England and about 60 miles north of London. And --
What was your first impression of England and Molsworth?
Well, my first impression was that we were fortunate, because this base had all the amenities of -- the British had occupied this base and were vacating it for us.
It was a British air base?
It was a British air base, and so we had quarters that were fine with all the barracks. We had Headquarters Company and the facilities were fine. It was very acceptable.
So the officers' quarters were not Quonset huts or --
No, no, no. Well, the men were in the Quonset huts.
They were?
Yeah. We were -- the British were like us, I guess, as far as the separation between the -- the physical separations between the men and the officers were, you know, this is normal military stuff.
Yes, yes.
So we were about -- we were quite impressed with how maybe fortunate we were, because our minds wandered as to where in the world we would be and what kind of facilities. These were actually more than acceptable.
Were the planes there when you got there?
No.
They were still --
But they were bringing them in at the time.
Yeah. So what were some of the first things that you had to do there once you got to the --
Well, we had to do all the normal stuff, setting up Headquarters and getting all the paperwork and all the facilities set up. They had a hangar where you could -- any aircraft that needed repair you could put in the hangars and do the repair. The actual parking of the aircraft, they had several of them around the perimeter where you could park your aircraft and the men could work on it, or where we would go in order to -- whenever the time came to load to go on our runs, on our combat missions.
And the first combat mission wasn't until February of '43; is that right?
Yes, I think that's about right.
So you had more training?
Oh, yeah, more training.
More training, flying?
The tough part about being one of the first groups in England was being able to get to a target, the target on the continent. The first targets that we had, as I recall, were on the West Coast of France, and these targets were such that -- and I'm speaking now from some knowledge of what was there and what we were after. One thing that we wanted to do was to stop the amount of submarines that were going out to meet the ships that were bringing the men in to do the landing, whenever that would come, and the subs were the main culprit. So the first mission, as I recall, was a mission to -- I'm trying to remember the name in France -- no, I'm not sure. But anyway, there were sub pens. The idea was that we would go over and drop some bombs on these pens. Well, little did we realize that those pens were built with about two feet of concrete all around the upper part of the pen. The bombs just could not penetrate. What we needed were aircraft that could put the water -- drop the bombs in the water and then scoot in and blow the things up, but we didn't have that kind of equipment. And we paid dearly for the attempts that we had. Because one of the best buddies that I had, who I went to school with actually, was a fellow by the name of Ehle Reever. And he was on the track team at Oregon and, you know, was a great guy. And he was shot down. One of the problems we had, we didn't have the protection or the help from our fighters, because none of the fighters were over there, our fighters. And the English had the Spitfire, and they could go as far as -- because of their capacity, or lack of capacity, I should say -- they could take us, escort us to the French coast, and then they had to turn back because they couldn't go any further and still get back to their base. So we were sitting ducks going down. And you'd go into formation, and the Germans would take a crack at you, and they would get a good many of our men, even though we had a lot of guns on our ships. And this is where the heaviest fatalities started as far as the 8th Air Force was concerned. I think the 8th Air Force was searching for ways to find targets where we could do some damage without the heavy losses that we were getting. You know, there were, in some of those there were 20, 25 percent losses. You'd send out 30 or 40 aircraft and maybe eight or ten wouldn't come back, and the rest were pretty well shot up.
George, a couple of things to set the stage. Describe the typical, what was the typical crew of the B-17s? What did that consist of?
Well, the typical crew of a B-17 was the pilot and copilot, the engineer, the navigator, the bombardier. The bombardier was also the person who -- or the navigator, I should say, they were the ones that were in front, in the forward compartment. They were right below us. Our seats were up higher. And then we would drop down, and the navigator and bombardier were down there. Our head engineer had the upper turret, and he was right behind us. There was the turret on the top. There were guns. These are 50 calibers.
So the turret had two 50-caliber machine guns?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And then the bombardier had a gun, had two 50-calibers, and that was it. And then you go into the radio compartment, he had none. You go into the belly of the aircraft, and you had your side gunners on both sides, and then you had the gunner who was in the belly. And this was --
The ball turret?
The ball turret.
What was so bad about that? Everybody talks about that. What was so bad about that?
Can't you imagine being in that ball turret, up there all by yourself?
Underneath the belly of the aircraft?
Underneath the belly of the aircraft and looking down. And you could move that gun so far, but he'd see something up above and he couldn't get his gun up there, so it was up to the other fellows. And then, of course, we had the tail gunner.
He had two 50-caliber?
He had two 50-caliber, and he was back there and he was on his belly. It was just a small compartment, and he had to be really sort of a small man.
To get in there?
To be able to get in there and maneuver.
So each B-17 had about eight or ten --
Ten.
Ten 50-caliber machine guns all over the --
Yeah.
Yeah, something like that eight or ten?
Yeah, yeah.
Talk about then, let's take like those early missions against the submarine pens. What was the preparation for a mission like that? You were part of the intelligence. How did you prepare for the mission?
Well, well, well, what they would do is, we'd -- going for those missions, we'd usually get up about 5:00, you know, 5:00 o'clock, breakfast, and then briefing at 6:00, and then take off at 7:00 or thereabouts, 7:00, 7:15 on the target. You gain altitude over the channel on the English side before you went over into France, so you're going in. You didn't go in very high for those targets.
5,000 feet?
Yeah, 5,000 feet, yeah.
To see them more clearly?
Yeah. Well --
Who chose the targets?
Well, this was done by Wing Headquarters. You see, under the -- we had the umbrellas, as we called it, the 8th Air Force, and then underneath that were the various wings, and underneath the wings were three or four bases.
Bomb groups?
Bomb groups. You had Bassingbourn, you had Molesworth, you had all kinds of bases. Where our base was, within 10 miles there was another base on a 360-degree circle, and that went on and on and on. So that's how we eventually built it up.
Now, when you had the briefings for the crews, was it like in the movies? An officer on the stage, people wearing their jackets, big maps, screens?
Well, actually, it depends how much of that description you want to apply. But it was -- but certainly they had the screen, and the route was put on the screen. And what to expect, they gave us all the information, as much as they could, of what to expect. Now, there are guns. There are guns on the ground. There are guns -- and the fighters are, they would actually give you an estimate number of fighters that would be coming. And they didn't know, but they would give you as much information as they could gather from their intelligence.
Photographs?
Oh, yeah, photographs; oh, yes.
Submarine pens?
I don't remember the submarine pens, but I sure remember the ones of other targets, oh, yeah.
And it got better as time went on?
As time went on. Actually, Steve, it was between -- just like night and day, the way the progression was, as you well know.
In the beginning it was like, a lot of mistakes were made?
We were searching, we were reaching, we were -- our intelligence was out there. We were getting information from the continent from those spies that apparently were there, and they were coming back, and how much of that information was true or false? And it was just a step that you would take forward and hope that it was a good step. But many steps were taken, and we had to step back and say, hey, that wasn't a good idea. Going into a target, say, for -- I'm getting ahead of myself here now. But if you go into a target at 10,000 feet, how many guns do they have down below, flat pins? At 10,000 feet they could pick you off, so you would have had to go higher. So most of our targets were, you know, 20,000 feet.
The guns couldn't shoot that high?
Oh, they could get there, oh, yeah. Because the Germans were, they were adding to their repertoire. As we would move, they would move.
Sure.
You know, this is the old tactics of war.
Yeah, all right. Well, let's go back into early '43, the first missions against those submarines pens, lots of losses, lessons were learned. When you had losses, how soon were they replaced? Were the aircraft and crews replaced pretty quickly? If you're losing 25 percent on a mission, pretty soon you're going to run out of planes.
Well, lots -- some of those planes they actually got back, but there were wounded on board. But the planes were pretty well shot up so they had to go into repair. And this was always a problem, because at that period of time in the war we didn't have the number of aircraft that we really needed to do the job.
Spare parts or --
Yeah. Well, just everything was tough. I mean, it was a learning, a learning process that had to be speeded up and all that information gotten back. Actually, as we were there for maybe six or eight months, a new version of a B-17 would come out that had better guns or innovations or the motors were -- I mean, this is just the process that we went through.
George, do you remember on some of those early missions against the submarine pens, you were there when the planes came back?
Oh, yeah.
Do you remember seeing some of the first planes that were shot up coming back?
Oh, yes; oh, yes.
It was quite an eyeopener, I'm sure. You probably didn't see the ones that didn't come back, but you saw the ones that were shot up?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
They were all shot up?
Yeah, yeah.
Holes in the wings?
Big holes in the wings. Some of those didn't make it. But it was really a sad story when you would -- you'd hear somebody coming in saying, I'm at 500 feet and my right wheel won't go down, please get ready, you know, or whatever else the aircraft had, a problem with landing. And there were some pretty nasty landings that ended up with critical results.
Sure, crash landing?
Oh, yeah. It was something.
How about weather, George? Was that much of a factor?
Well, in England when you're over -- yeah, I thought about this in retrospect. Because in England, you know, you have the North Sea on the east side, you have Ireland on the left, and in -- but the winds are such that -- I think we all know that England is not the best country in the world for nice, sunny weather. I don't know whether you knew that or not. We didn't know it at the time. But the weather conditions were really quite unpredictable. I can remember some missions were they would tell us that the ceiling is 500 feet. You'll go into 500 feet, and then before you come out of the cloud cover you're going to be at 10,000 feet. So we would be flying on instruments for 5,000 feet, climbing at 500 feet a minute, and we had to keep it under a certain degree of flight information. You know, if you were -- you had to stay in position and then to fly formation at the same time and the flight element was three aircraft, with the leader and the two aircraft on each side. And then from that you went into the elements, and you went into the squadrons. And all the squadrons were such that you had to stack your aircraft in a certain way for maximum protection for yourselves and for people not to get lost.
At this point were missions just about every day, launching planes?
Well, of course now it depends on the time of year, but --
We're still in the middle of '43 now.
Yeah. Well, no, we're down to the-- yeah. We're now, we went through the winter, I'd say. And there were missions that were coming two and three times a week. And sometimes, depending on the situation where they saw that something should be done quickly, they would gather and you'd go again the next day. So it varied. It also varied with what weather information they could glean as to whether we could fly or not, you know.
Weather over the target?
Weather over the target, weather at home. I mean, all those variables would come into play. And there were quite a number of times that we'd be ready to take off and go, and they'd call it off.
George, can you describe your first combat mission. How was that?
Well, I went as a copilot, and my first pilot -- my first one I think was in the spring of '43.
Okay.
We went to Oschersleben. Now, Oschersleben, the target was where they were, the Germans were making their aircraft. It was a -- they were making their, in other words, an aircraft base.
So that's in Germany?
It was in Germany, Oschersleben, and it was on the western part of Germany.
So by the spring of '43 we were starting to fly missions into Germany now?
Yes.
These were early missions?
Yeah, but not too far in.
Not too far in? Unescorted?
Yeah, unescorted.
Describe that mission in as much detail as you want to.
Well, as much as I can remember, it was -- we got shot at, of course. Oschersleben, the flak was not that bad.
Flak is anti-aircraft fire?
That's the anti-aircraft fire.
What does that look like?
Well, how they make the flak, it's, you know, a small bundle with an explosive device in it full of metal shrapnel all bunched together. And then with the device in it, when they trigger it, it explodes, and just explodes into just a ball, a ball of iron and steel and whatever they make them out of. And you would fly, and those things would exploded below you, they could exploded above you, and God help you if one hit you.
Could you hear it?
Well --
You can see it?
You could see it and, hell, that was enough, yeah. The times that you could see them, you thanked your lucky stars. But if it was too close, let's say you were doing -- you flew at 175 miles an hour, and if it was too close it could exploded in front of you and then you'd fly right through it. And we did that on an occasion. It didn't hit you, but all the remnants -- we came back one time from a mission, I don't remember which one it was, and you wouldn't believe it. But we counted 160 holes, little tiny metal holes in the aircraft. It didn't hit the gasoline, didn't hit the tanks, and we came back okay. There were times when we had to feather aircraft, come back on maybe three engines, depending on -- others, maybe two engines and so forth. But we were able to come back.
George, describe the -- and I know this changed over the course of the war -- but the different kind of formations you flew in to protect, you know, to provide the most protection with the B-17s. There were different formations, right, so the guns could --
Well, actually, the -- as we got into the war a little bit -- but this is further on down the line.
Okay.
Yeah. The guns were getting better. They -- instead of maybe 50 degrees being able to turn, they could turn maybe 75 so that there was more of a range of being able to move the guns in their position. It was more comfortable for the men. The initial ones were pretty basic, sitting on the floor of the aircraft. This way they had -- and actually, the Norton bomb site was right near where the guns were. The Norton bomb site is where the bombardier had to sit when you went on target, and he said, the aircraft is mine. And so you -- and he could steer the aircraft.
The bombardier took over the aircraft for the last couple of minutes?
Yeah, from -- they call it the initial point, the IP.
George, so the listener knows, too, the plane was open. I mean, the side where the machine guns were coming out was just an open window on the B-17. It was cold.
Well --
It wasn't a pressurized aircraft?
Oh, no, no, no. When you say open, I didn't --
Yeah, I meant --
You didn't mean open window, no.
On the side they were, weren't they? The waist gunners' windows were open for the machine guns?
No, no.
No?
No, no, no. There was Plexiglas.
Oh, okay.
And they had maneuvers, but it got better as -- you know, before they were confined pretty much to what they could get. But no, they didn't have open windows.
But it got pretty cold inside, didn't it?
Oh, sure. You'd get up there at 20,000 feet, and it's minus 40, minus 30 degrees.
Inside the plane?
Yeah.
No heat?
But you did the best you could with -- we wore heavy boots. I mean, these were all British made, you know.
Leather with sheepskin?
Yeah.
Beautiful.
The flight boots, I wish I'd been able to bring some of them back.
What else did you wear to keep warm then?
Well, we had our flight jackets, you know, and our flight suits. And I think really that we did have some heat and, also, you were so busy that you didn't get cold. You were moving up there.
Do you remember seeing your first Messerschmidt, German aircraft?
I don't remember seeing my first one, but I saw several of them. I don't remember the first one. When we went to Oschersleben there weren't many.
There weren't?
No, no, no way. They were, for some reason, maybe the aircraft -- wherever that was, I don't remember now what the circumstances were. But anyway, it wasn't too bad.
Well, and again, this is the spring now of '43, a year before D-Day?
Yeah.
And now the missions are starting to fly into Germany?
They're into Germany, yeah.
Okay. More and more planes coming into England all the time?
They were feeding them all the time, had to have the replacements. We had men, new men coming in.
So that was getting better?
It was improving every -- all the time.
Let's talk about your experience with Headquarters Company in the spring of '43. Why don't you talk about what your responsibilities were there.
My responsibilities there were S2, which is intelligence. And one of my primary jobs was in Headquarters and to organize, help organize and direct the information that came out of Headquarters Company, particularly in regard to missions, new missions. The way this would work is that the teletype would usually -- if there's going to be a mission, and even if there wasn't, Headquarters would put us on the teletype and say -- and give us the information as to where we were going, whether it was a maximum effort, whether it was -- what the fighter cover would be, takeout time, the briefing time, and all the necessary information. And this would usually come in, as I say, in the evenings, and then it was my job to get that information to each squadron to let them know and to advise their squadron leaders the time, you know, when breakfast was going to be, takeoff time and so forth. And usually, just in a quick summarization, we would usually get up about 4:30, have breakfast at 5:00 or 5:30, and then we'd be on line at 6:00 o'clock and take off maybe at 6:30 or 7:00. It depended on where we were going to go, the difficulty of the mission, the coordination with all the other groups that were within the vicinity. And the groups were coming in, that is, groups like ourselves, that were being stationed in sort of the area where we were in Northern England. Actually, we were west of North Hampton near the Wash. It's a well-known place, if you ever get to England. And the takeoff times were very, very important because there were occasions when -- and, by the way, weather information was given to us and, as I say, there were times when we had a ceiling of, say, 500 feet. And then as we climbed, they had to be very precise in our ability to keep on track and flying at a certain speed so that we would not interfere with other groups that were stationed within eight or ten miles of our group. Because they were going through a similar situation, only they would be taking off in a different direction, and so we would have to avoid any collisions.
Sure.
Usually the information was that we would have a ceiling, and we would not break out of the ceiling until maybe 8,000 feet, and then it would be time for the groups to leave the English coast. And everything was, everything was on practice schedule and where we led, where we fit into this at the various altitudes. You know, it was, it was just a wonder that I had, when I was on the ground, to be able to look into the sky and see these aircraft getting together with the groups, fitting in, one high, one low, a mass of aircraft in the air.
What was the typical number of planes on some of these early missions?
Well, we would have 80, 90, 100 aircraft going after -- some the same target, others would break off and go to different targets. But there were big ones. We went to Berlin. We went to Meersburg.
Were you the first bomber group to hit Berlin?
I can't answer that. I think we were.
You must have been.
Yeah. You know, that -- we were one of the first, let's put it that way.
Yeah. George, when you got the -- what other preparation was required besides informing the squadrons as to their takeoffs times and so forth? Were the ground crews working all night to get the planes ready?
It depends. It depends on the aircraft that they were assigned. If it was damage that took all night, they would do it. There were aircraft that didn't take that particular amount of time, but there were crews that would work all night to attempt to get the aircraft going. Because when they said ME, that means maximum effort, and every effort was made to adhere to orders.
Well, every mission wasn't a maximum effort, was it, early on?
Early on, every one was that way because they were -- yeah, every plane you could fly, let's get it up there, because there were many that couldn't fly. They were in the hangers being worked on. And we had -- it depended on the mission maybe the day before, two days before, how many aircraft we could put in the air. So I would say that, yeah, all of them were ME.
And planes took off with discrepancies that later they wouldn't have taken off with? I mean, they were still somewhat damaged but they had to fly the mission anyway?
That was a judgment, an individual judgment decision. If the CO or whoever was responsible and took the responsibility, okay, let's go. Otherwise, if it was a marginal thing; oh, let's go, or, hey, this plane's not ready to fly yet.
There was a lot of pressure on the pilots, though, to take off?
Oh, yeah.
Nobody wanted to be left behind?
Oh, no, no, no. No, we wanted to go if that was the job, particularly on particular targets. Some of them didn't want to go to certain targets and others said, hey, that's a milk run, let's go. There were some missions initially that we didn't go too far into Germany. We were, we were kind of -- it seemed to us anyway that it was a testing period for the Air Force to see what kind of enemy, how many planes they could get in the air. There were some targets that had flak guns, F-L-A-K, on the ground, and the crews could put that flak in the air, and they could put it right on the altitude. And the way they get their altitude for us would be, they'd send fighters up and say, well, they're coming in at 20,000, and so they'd put it right at 20,000 feet. It was just a wall of flak that I don't want to maximize, nor do I want to minimize the amount of flak that different targets could put in the air.
George, now, let's say it's the summer now of '43.
Yeah.
Were you getting more fighter support for this, American fighter squadrons now?
We were getting -- American fighter squadrons were beginning to come in.
P-51 Mustangs?
The P-51s, the P-47s, the P-38s. But it was good to see, and what a blessing to be able to see our own sitting out there trying to protect us.
Could they fly, could Company fly all the way down to as far as you could see?
No, that was one thing that they couldn't do yet.
Not yet?
Not yet. It depended on how far in the target was.
Right.
Some of those aircraft would take off, and they would fly and gain altitude with tanks that were attached. And then as they got in to know where the target was, they would take us to the target and then drop their tanks and do their fighting and then bring us back home.
George, like on a long -- well, give me some idea of what the range of these deeper missions were. I don't know the distances. 1,000 miles to Berlin?
Well, well, time element was one thing you could do, you could tell. We would climb to altitude, and that would take us -- let's say we climbed to 20,000 feet over the English channel, and then we would go in at that altitude. And there were aircraft that would take us maybe 100, 200 miles in, and they'd have to leave, and then another group would come in with their belly tanks, and they could take us further in. It depends. But if you go to Berlin, that in itself, by the time we took off, was a six-hour flight.
Just one way?
No, no, round trip, six hours. And we would fly at 170 miles an hour.
So 5 or 600 miles, let's say, to Berlin?
Yeah. And -- go ahead.
The formations, were the formations, they were special so that the planes didn't interfere with each other. Who organized that?
Well, the best -- well, each squadron, each group would assign who leads and what squadron would be on the right element and who would fly. Those were all assigned and given at briefing in the morning, at the early morning briefings. This is what we'd adhere to.
Yeah. Talk a little bit about then what happened after the planes got back, the whole process of the debriefings.
Well, we would come back and -- it depends if everybody -- if there weren't any major damages those were to come in, and the ones that had the damage were to go in first. And then those would circle until their time was right and the tower was bringing us in. They -- those that had real trouble would say, you know, I've got to come in quick. I'm getting low on gas. Bring me in. But there had to be a good reason. What's your trouble? And we would, you know, we'd explain; right engine, we've had to -- the right engine is doing something, or, we've had to shut it down. We can't get our wheels down. We don't know what to do, et cetera, et cetera. So those were all items that, or events that the tower would have to contend with as to when he'd bring those people in. And you'd have to circle until it was your turn. And there were times when you were very close to -- you didn't have much gas, and you better get down quick.
George, the composition of the crew of a typical B-17, you described it previously. But give us an idea of the age typically of -- I mean, these were mostly young pilots, right?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
You were 21 or 22?
Well, I was a little older than that. I graduated from college at 22, and then by the time -- I wasn't even in England and then I was 23. So with three or four years over there, I was 28 by the time I got back. So --
You were an old man?
So I was an old -- yeah, one of the older people. Because some of the newer crews that were coming in, they had put these -- I call them kids. They were kids, we were all kids then. But, you know, they were, some were hardly out of high school, you know.
Gunners, 18, 19 years old?
Yeah, oh, yeah.
Pilots that were 21 or 22?
22, yeah.
Young pilots?
Yeah. So we had to check them out, make sure that they could do the job. We had some -- I can remember when I was -- where there were those were weren't willing to fly. They said, I'm just scared to death. I don't want to go up there. All of a sudden that person was gone.
You mean they got to England and --
They got to England, and then the pressure got so it got to them, their mental structure or whatever. They were just plain scared to death. And if you have a man like that on your crew, they're endangering others that are on your crew if they can't do the job they're supposed to do.
Right. What happened to them?
They just disappeared. We heard various stories like, well, they're going to be in the front lines in the infantry. I never knew that.
But they were gone within a day?
Yeah, very quickly. Yeah, they were just gone. And there was one occasion that I can remember that -- I don't know whether it's apropos here now to speak of it. But we had one crew that the pilot was older than most of us and, you know, we respected him. He was a good pilot, he had an excellent crew, and he did a few missions. And then all of a sudden on one particular mission he took off. He didn't go across the channel. He went the other way, and he landed on the coast of Ireland. He went absolutely the other way. Apparently what happened is, as I understand, he got the crew, talked them into it. What we're going to do, I'm going to save you your lives, fellows. Because things were pretty tough, you know --
Right.
-- when you have the percentages of guys that were being knocked out of the sky. It was scary. So here, this older guy said, with his ability to -- he was the boss of the crew. What do you think? I'm going to save us. So he went over to Ireland. And, as I understand it, he landed on the coast, just bellied it in and it was okay, as far as we know. What happened to him, I can't tell you because I don't know.
That's quite a story.
Yeah. It's a good one, isn't it?
It is. Well, let's end this disk here. This is the end of disk No. 2. END OF CD FILE NUMBER TWO AND BEGINNING OF CD FILE NUMBER THREE
This is disk No. 3 of the interview with George Mackin in his home in Lake Oswego, Oregon. The date is June 5th, 2006. George, when we ended the last disk it was spring or, I'm sorry, summer and fall of '43. You were attached to Headquarters Company. Talk about your desire to get from Headquarters Company into a regular squadron. You didn't get to fly as much in Headquarters Company, did you?
No, no, no, no, no. But what I wanted to do was get some experience in combat, and the only way to do that was to go out on some of these missions. So there were several friends that I had that I would -- I knew they were good pilots, and so I asked them if I could go as copilot. If their copilot didn't want to go, then I would be willing to go. And those opportunities came up. And as a result, I was copilot on quite a number of missions before it got to the point where -- well, you know, there were various things that happened. We had, we had -- apparently, unbeknownst to me, as I look back on it, they were doing some checking out on me. Because there was a West Point guy by the name of Gene Rolnick, great guy. And we got to the point where we were playing some badminton and --
Badminton?
Yeah. And all these British bases seemed to have a badminton court on base, and so we started playing badminton. I got to know him pretty well.
Who was he?
He was a West Pointer and he was in Headquarters Company.
Oh, okay. He was senior to you?
Oh, yeah; oh, yeah. He had been in the service and he was a pilot, and he was -- at that point in time I think he was a captain or a major.
Okay. You were still a first lieutenant?
And I was, I got my captaincy after I did a few more missions.
In '43?
Yeah, late '43 --
Okay.
-- I got my captaincy. And then during all that time, why, things were changing. Squadron commanders who had been there for some time -- actually, some of them had come over from -- you know, I was with them through the training here in the states, all the way from Boise on through. And they, they finished their missions, and so some of the openings were beginning -- some of the squadron commands were beginning to come up.
At that time, what, there was -- after you flew 25 missions you were entitled to go home?
That's right. This was 25 missions scheduled. Yeah, that was because of the -- you know, you get 25 and you were worthy to go home, I'll tell you.
Most didn't survive?
Yeah, yeah.
So these, these were the original commanding officers?
These were the guys that were really, they were the ones assigned -- they were the seniors over me or, you know, they were captains or majors when they, when they came in the main group. They were men who had been in the service for some time.
Did you have a high regard for them?
Yeah, yeah.
There was three of them?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew them. They were respected, as far as I was concerned. Yeah, I had good rapport with them. And I wouldn't have been there very long if I didn't have that rapport because -- this goes back, all the way back to Boise. I had known them for month after month after month, been to parties with them, you know, that sort of thing. That's when they get to know you and vice versa. So we -- and the Headquarters Company really was -- I was trained to be a, to be really a, just to have a crew, and for some reason they put me in Headquarters. I think I might have mentioned this before.
Right, you did, yeah.
Because I had previous experience in the infantry, see.
Now, but you're saying at this time, George, you were trying to get experience because you would like to -- were you actually thinking you would command a squadron?
I did not think about that, no. I just wanted to do what they were doing.
Be a pilot in a regular squadron?
You bet.
Get out of Headquarters?
Get out of Headquarters and get my 25 in and then go home.
Yes.
That's what I had in mind. So I started putting -- this is '43 now.
Right.
I started putting quite a number of, quite a number of missions together. And it was during this buildup and frequency of targets where we would go sometimes every other day on targets. And maybe we'd have a laydown of a few days, kind of get our heads together. And then away they'd come again with -- and usually this was timed as more, as more help came from the fighters that were coming into the country. It was all kind of a sequence of organization of the 8th Air Force to get more fighters in so that we could go deeper into Germany. And so it was in late '43 when this was really beginning to happen.
Every month seemed more and more --
Well, and all the -- the pressure was, get those planes in the air, put the pressure on Germany, get that job done, type of thing, to the point where there were times when I think that when I went to this rest home, the pressure was on so bad that I had -- they had asked me if I would like to go to this, because maybe it was imminent that I was getting a little antsy myself.
Oh, yeah.
And so we went, and it was a two-week -- the first one I had, a two-week period.
Before you talk about that, George, okay, now let's say it's the fall or so of '43.
Yeah.
Are you starting to notice England is building up, you know, troops for the invasion? Things are starting to look different for the invasion?
I did not notice it at that time.
Nothing?
No. It was surprising in the way they put this thing together. Oh, boy.
It was a good secret?
It was -- well, can't you imagine?
Yeah.
To be able to pull this thing off and to have the main people in Hitler's armed ground swell, Rommel and so forth, not on the job?
Everybody knew what was going to happen.
Yeah.
Were there some -- during this time period you mentioned earlier some visitors sent to the base. Talk about some special, notable people.
We had on one particular occasion -- and I was not in the squadron yet. I was still in Headquarters Company when the fellow that was my -- I was rooming with a fellow by the name of Gordon Donnelly, and he was base personnel. He was head of incoming celebrities, and he was just the guy that was such a personality, Gordon Donnelly, that he was -- this was his job. And I was -- he asked me if I would room with him, which I did. And at one time he came to me and he said, George, he said, we've got a war correspondent coming in, and I'd like to have him have your bed. Could you get another bed? And I said, sure, that's okay, because it was a real problem, you know. And I just went to -- I don't know who I went to, but I got a bed so he wouldn't have to sleep in one of the squadron -- you know, this is -- we had pretty nice headquarters.
Yeah.
Pretty nice quarters.
Yes.
And who was it, but old Walter Cronkite. And Gordon said, come on, let's have dinner. So we went to dinner in the mess hall.
You and Walter?
Well, I didn't know who the heck he was. But he was -- you couldn't help but like him immediately.
Was he very likable?
Yeah. And he was on base and he went on a mission.
He did?
Yeah. I don't know if they chose the mission or whether it was a milk run. We had those, you know. I mean, maybe it was a milk run. But he was there. Clark Gable came on our base, too, you know, for a quickie. I mean, for just -- not overnight. I don't think he was there overnight. The present -- well, no. The Queen of England at that time and the two daughters came on base, and the prince, who was the -- I forgot what the sequence of events was, but this was the social thing for us to do. They would go to other bases, but we were chosen as one of the bases where the royalty of England would visit us. And so we just, you know, we had tea and didn't think much about it.
What did you do when the crews weren't flying? Did you get leave to go off base much?
We had two days' leave, yeah.
Two days every --
Every week.
Oh, every week?
Oh, yeah, yeah. Wait a minute. Was it every week or every two weeks?
Every couple weeks?
Yeah, I think it was every two weeks, yeah, not every week.
What did you do?
What would we do? We would go to London. There was a train stop 10 or 12 miles from base. We'd go get the train and go into London, and there were times when we would stay at the Savoy.
The Savoy?
It's the big nice hotel.
Very nice.
And there were times when we were in London when they were having raids, and they'd say, everybody into the, where the trains --
The underground?
We went in the underground. As a matter of fact, in relation to that, and this goes -- this is later on. But the buzz bombs -- and I don't know whether you remember the V bombs.
V bombs, rockets?
Yeah, yeah. And that was a scary son of a gun. Because they sounded like -- they would come in at about 2,000 feet, and they were sent from across the channel. I think it was from Calais, as I remember. And they sounded like four or five washing machines just going, making all kinds of noise. And they -- and then all of a sudden the noise would stop, and then you knew there was going to be -- that means that the bomb was released and it was headed down. And then all of a sudden you'd hear a whoom. And then there were -- they were just as scary as the dickens. One time one landed on the outside, the -- quite a ways from us at the Savoy Hotel, but we could feel it when it landed in the Thames River and exploded. And the concussion, you could just feel what kind of power those things had.
When you were on these leaves, George, was it like you might see in the movies, you know, the Americans were out to have a lot of fun and bleed in the streets? Was it like that?
Yeah, yeah. There certainly, there was that element of it. And usually it was Red Cross nurses or some British personnel that were in working for the British government or working -- you know, there were secretaries and -- but most of them were connected to something affiliated with the war effort. I can't remember how things were put together, how you met some people, but they --
It was easy to meet people?
Oh, yeah.
And they were friendly, having a good time?
Oh, yeah, yeah. They were minus their men, you know, the British gals, and so we were welcomed because of the job we were over there to do. They knew, all the British, and the British were just great to us. I mean all of them.
Did you ever group up with some British pilots?
We never had -- well, no, no.
No combined missions?
No, no, no, no. The British, you know, they did their night flying.
Right.
Yeah, boy.
So, George, then, you know, again fall, late 1944, the routine was pretty much as you've described. Missions came in all the time. Were there ever any arguments over the missions, disagreements between the group and --
Oh, yeah, yeah. You wouldn't -- there was scuttlebutt about --
Rumors?
Yeah, rumors. Why here? You know, we had our opinion of, why go back there? Didn't we take care of that target? Or, boy, that's a tough one. You know, all of the necessary -- not necessary or unnecessary, just jabber-jabber as to, boy, that's going to be a tough one today. So, you know, no, no. There were times when it was felt that they were piling it on, that they were just doing more than it was actually -- that we were capable of being able to put aircraft in the sky. The targets were coming in and, you know, and there was a great push on getting those aircraft in the air. You got to have time to take care of the aircraft, you got time to get the men ready, and sometimes the pressure was just a little bit too great.
When a new pilot joined the squadron, you said earlier you checked him out, around the field and so forth. How did they check them out on their first couple of missions? An experienced pilot flew with them?
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
Oh, yeah; oh, yeah. There wasn't -- he didn't take off on -- no, no. Actually, what they would do is probably go copilot and then put him in the left seat.
Pilot seat?
Pilot seat, yeah.
Okay. So that took time?
It took time, yeah. And there again, along with just that subject you brought up, there was too much rush; get them in the air, check them out quick, overnight-type of stuff, get them going.
At its worst, George, when let's say you had those missions where they launched 100 bombers --
Oh, yeah.
-- you would lose 20, 30 percent?
Oh, there were times -- oh, yeah, at times, yeah.
20 or 30 would be gone?
Yeah, you could see aircraft going down. You could, yeah.
When the missions were flown when you were in Headquarters, was there any way you could track them over the radio, or did you just have to wait until they got back? You couldn't hear them from --
No, no, no, no, no, no. But when they got back over England they could call in.
They would report it?
Yeah. Well, they had to get what was on the base, what, north, south, east, west, what they were landing on. There were times -- I can remember one time when England was overcast and we had a 500-foot ceiling. Now, you try and bring several hundred aircraft back with that kind of ceiling.
For the listener, a ceiling is the clouds were at 500 feet or lower?
Yeah, right. Well, you know what I'm talking about.
What do they do? Where do they go?
A lot of them just landed at British bases.
Anyplace they could find?
Anyplace that they could find they would land, and in the next day or two they would come on in. And then some of them would make it. Some of them just stayed under the 500 feet. But there were times when we would be coming back, and all of a sudden the aircraft would -- the aircraft would bounce, so we knew we were close to an aircraft nearby that was causing this is turbulence.
But you never saw it?
Well, maybe we did. But there were times when, no, you didn't.
It was that close?
Oh, yeah. Oh, jeez.
George, now you were mentioning earlier that at one point you took, you got a couple weeks of leave?
Yeah.
Why don't you talk about that story. When was that?
That was in the fall of '43.
Okay.
Because that was the time that I had been taking quite a few missions and was beginning to fly, and I think I took on too many, and I was beginning to feel it. Maybe I didn't notice it, but the doc did. We'd go to the doctor and, how are you feeling? Well, you know, the usual stuff.
They could tell?
They could tell, yeah.
So where did you go for two weeks?
We went to this converted mansion that the Red Cross had taken over, so we had American Red Cross people and nurses that were there, and we were really nicely taken care of; good food, sheets, clean sheets, and lots of relaxing time, time to read, time to -- you didn't have TV at that time. There was no TV. But it was just a time of good relaxation, and that's what we did. And it was a lifesaver.
Got you right back on track?
Got us back on track to the point where we had -- it was good timing on the part of the doc on our base. There were several of us that went.
Okay, George. Talk about then how it got to be -- you got to be a major and then you got assigned a squadron. Tell us about that.
Well, this was, as I mentioned to you, apparently I'd been checked out, you know, by Gene Rolnick, and my getting acquainted with him and playing badminton; and another one there by the name of Lewis Lyle who I had gotten to know quite well. As a matter of fact, he stayed in the service and came out a lieutenant general. He was really quite a guy. And actually, he was the one, Lewis was the one that flew Walter Cronkite out of England and they went someplace down south. I don't know whether they landed in Spain or someplace, but he was the one that took Walter from the base. And they, these war correspondents, you never knew really where they were going, what their schedule was. And there were others, Major Ramsey and --
These were all Headquarters officers?
These were all guys in Headquarters Company, yeah. And I would see them after the war, and we started having our reunions and I would see these fellows, and this was after I was married. And Barbara and I would go back, and we went all over the states, just -- Boston, New York, Shreveport, San Antonio. And we did this for quite a number of years, just Barbara and I.
Sure.
We'd take off and go back and spend two or three days, and this is how long these reunions would last.
Well, talk about, how did you learn then that you were going to be a CO of a squadron, commanding officer?
The CO called me in and asked me if I would like to do this, and I said, yeah, you bet. I had no idea.
Total surprise?
Total surprise.
You were hoping?
Well, I don't know -- I can't remember. I suppose, yeah, I was always -- you know, I wanted to get ahead, if that's what you call it, so yeah, sure. And so I was made a squadron commander in the early part of '44, and then my majority came -- well, in order to take the job you had to be a major. So, yeah, yeah, it was --
Which squadron was that?
It was 358th squadron.
And tell us about then taking over a squadron. What did you do in the process?
Well, you know, that's -- I was so fortunate. My executive assistant was a man who was a teacher, a high school teacher in New England, and his name was Clace Johnson. And he was the kind of a guy that was nice, easy, quiet, and he would set things up for me so that I didn't have to show any temper or show any favoritism. He would lay it out for me. So he knew of my tendencies maybe to get a little excited.
You had a temper?
Oh, yeah.
Oh, I didn't know that.
Well, not to the point, you know, that -- but I can show my emotions.
You can chew somebody out?
Oh, yeah, you bet, and had to at times. Oh, yeah.
Sure.
I mean, that was part of the job. If you didn't do that, why, you weren't doing your job. And we had many occasions of guys screwing up, oh, yeah. You can't have that many people around you and not have occasions where situations develop that just aren't good for the squadron. You're not supposed to do it.
Right.
And you know that.
But was there a ceremony or something as you took over the squadron, or was it just --
Well, I don't remember if there was any ceremony. I think there was a ceremony for the one that left. I can't remember his name. Wertzer? I can't -- there was a ceremony for him, and then I was there, and then the appointment came at that time.
And you knew all the pilots?
I knew most of them, yeah.
So it wasn't a stranger coming in?
It wasn't any stranger, no.
Did that feel like an extra responsibility?
Sure, it did, and it made me grow up a lot.
It did?
Oh, you bet.
What were your duties, for example?
Well, I had an office, you know. One of the barracks, we broke down one of the walls and put a desk in there, and Clace Johnson was near me. He had his desk and I had mine. Papers would come in and events would begin to pile up, and we had to do all kinds of appointments as far as who was going to be a first pilot and who was going to fly, who was going to be the leader, who was going to do this. It was all kinds of stuff. You know, not only was it just the pilots but the responsibility of the armaments; in other words, making sure that the aircraft were loaded properly, who was responsible for that. You'd have weekly meetings. You'd have meetings with fellows with their responsibilities. We'd get together and talk about whatever is going on, whatever they see that needs to be taken care of.
How to make things better?
How to make things smoother, yeah, make it go.
At this point now it's early in '44?
Yeah.
The materials for the squadron, parts, supplies, people, was it plentiful at that point?
I can't remember.
Better than in the early days, obviously?
Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.
How often did you fly as a CO?
Well, I would fly probably two or three times a month.
You could fly as often as you wanted?
Well, yeah. Well, there were times when you would lead the squadron. You know, we took -- various squadrons would take turns as far as leading is concerned. When a mission was assigned, 358th is up next, 359th, 360th, 361st, you know. And then sometimes Wing Headquarters would call and say Travis was coming over. Now Travis, the air base in California is named after Bob Travis.
I don't know who this is.
Well, he was a general.
Okay. He was the general of the Wing?
Yeah, and he was head of the Wing.
Travis?
Yeah, Bob Travis.
Was he good?
He was a nice guy, yeah.
He would come over and fly a mission once in a while?
He would fly a mission, yeah. Well, most of those guys were command pilots. They had had a lot of experience. I mean, they were just, they had been in the Air Corps.
He was like a two star general?
Yeah, yeah. Well, one star -- yeah, yeah, okay. The CO of the base was a full colonel. That was the -- the position didn't warrant a general's position.
Well, talk about some of the missions now in '44, some of the ones that you, that are most memorable to you.
Well, the one that really stands out to me is the Schweinfurt raid. And this was a primary target, and the reason it was primary is because they made ball bearings. Ball bearings are a vital part of anything that rolls. And at that time aircraft, cars -- not cars but tractors, you had to have the ball bearings. And this was a huge plan at Schweinfurt, and it was primary, and that was the mission where I just about got it. We were, for some reason we were flying on a wing. We didn't have -- so I can't remember the circumstances, but we were flying -- we weren't lead and we were on a wing. And all of a sudden we felt a thump, and the next thing we knew we couldn't -- the aircraft would not move when we took the wheel.
The wheel, the steering, the controls?
Oh, no, the controls. Actually, what happened was the controls -- you know, these are wires.
Right.
And the controls that control the airlerons that make the flaps go up and down and so forth, they wouldn't work. We could not control that aircraft. It was free wheeling in the air. And this was the moment --
Oh, yeah.
-- that we had to really wonder what was the thing to do. We reached down, and thank the good Lord -- it took us about 15 to 20 seconds to realize that we had no control of the aircraft, and we flicked it and it went on automatic pilot. That's separate control wires, and it took hold. So we -- it saved us, because otherwise we would have been spinning.
You had no control in any direction?
No control. Whatever wind would come up, it would flick us. We couldn't control it. And by the time we got that thing -- thank goodness we were high squadron, so by the time we got it in some semblance of where we could control it, we were low squadron. So we tucked it in and were able to -- and you dropped your bombs off the lead. The lead aircraft, when he dropped his bombs, that's when you went. So we stayed with the group for protection, because if we were out by ourselves they picked off. The fighters were out there and they already hit us. So we stayed in that position. We dropped our bombs, started to -- made our turn along with the group, stayed with the group, stayed in our position, which was protecting us, and we were on our way back. And I said, I'm going to -- we got down to about -- I don't know. We were beginning to get closer and closer to where we thought we would have to -- we didn't know how long that airleron, the right airleron, whether it was going to -- the wing was going to stay on or not. We didn't know how badly it was hurt. So I got out, put my mask on, did the best I could to try -- where it was attached to the body of the aircraft.
The wing?
Where the wing was attached, to see if any of those had been damaged to the point where this thing was about ready to fall off, and then down we'd go. So we came back, and we got on the horn and talked to all the crew members. We said that the pilot -- we're going to stay with this aircraft. We think we're all right. But we were coming back over Sweden, I mean Switzerland, and --
That was far north, yeah?
Switzerland?
Switzerland.
No, no.
France?
No, no, no. What am I talking about?
Belgium, Holland?
No, no. What am I talking about? Well, it was coming back, close to France.
Yeah.
So if we, if you wanted to jump out, go ahead and jump, you see, and then at 12,000 feet you'd be okay. And we said, myself and the copilot said, okay, we're going to stay. We're going to ride this thing through and take it back. Because we were on automatic pilot all the time.
Just flying it with these little switches?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so everybody stayed. And when we come back over the base we told them of our problem and they said, you know, gave us landing instructions and told us to go out four or five miles and then come in on a low, slow -- just bring her in straight and then drop it in as you got over the end of the fence, just cut it off. And then you'd hit, and then you could control it a little bit.
The brakes or something?
Yeah, yeah, and that's what we did.
And the landing worked out okay?
Yeah.
What was the -- did you finally get inspected where the damage was? Was it --
Oh, yeah. We got out and we saw that the right airleron was not working. And the reason was that a 50-caliber bullet, cannon, whatever, had hit that and cut the wires. Nothing you could do about it. And that was one of the closest calls that I had in combat, other than -- you know, there were other close calls, but that was it. That was on the cusp.
I would say.
The cutting edge.
George, you were awarded the distinguished flying cross. Was it on that mission?
It was that mission, yeah. That was a maximum effort and the casualties were heavy and the results were good, our bringing the plane back, and we got everybody in there.
How many bombers were on that mission, for example, would you guess?
That was the biggest mission I think we ever went on.
Hundreds of them. All right, George, let's talk about D-Day, June of '44. What were you flying then? Did you see the --
Yeah. Our mission, as I remember, we were to go in at a reasonably low altitude, 10,000 feet, and we were going to go beyond the lines. Because as we looked down -- and I'm just going to say as we went into our target, which was an airfield where the Germans had taken over, this was in France. And I think the name of the town was Leon, I think, which was north of Paris.
Yeah.
But we could see the number of ships as you looked down. Even from about 10,000 feet we could see specks in the water.
Filled with ships?
Filled with ships. We didn't see any action that way.
Right.
But at least we saw what the armada was, so to speak.
Were you surprised how big it was?
Well, it was such a mammoth thing, you know. And our observation was clear, you know, at 10,000 feet. And it was quick, because we had to get back on target ourselves, so we didn't have any particular -- there they are, oh, yeah. Hey, where are we going here? We didn't have time to fuss around. We didn't have any problem on this mission. It was just a milk run really, because we dropped our bombs on this airport and then came on back. And it's sad to say that a couple of days later the information came from Wing Headquarters. Apparently they got it from 8th Headquarters, and it traced the fact that our group had bombed this particular site. And in doing so it hit part of the target we were -- but the carryover hit an orphanage, and we -- they wanted us to see what we could do as far as -- it was children's orphanage, naturally. So everybody in the group wrote home and asked for clothes, shoes, whatever.
You know, you had mentioned that before.
Okay. Have I done that already?
Yeah, you have. You flew over there and brought them --
Yeah, okay.
So by this time, George, how many -- you know, you must be getting close to your 25, or more.
Well, I was over 25.
You were over 25?
Yeah, I was over 25. And having been a recent -- you know, having been on the job maybe six months or so --
As the CO?
-- as the CO, I wanted to stay a little longer. I don't know when our new CO came in. He came in I think in the summer of '44. And we missed the old Colonel Stevens, who was a good buddy and got along well. He apparently had joined the Air Corps in the early '30s and was a great guy. And what a change this was for this fellow. By the way, his name was Raper, R-A-P-E-R. I'm not going to attach anything to that name, but he -- his mannerisms, his carriage, his attitude -- you know, some guys are friendly. Some guys are, you know, just plain different. And I don't like to -- he was in the classification of different than the guys that I knew before him, you know, as far as --
Within five minutes you knew this --
Well, you know, you can tell, oh, yeah. But anyway, to kind of sum it up, we had our meetings. You know, we were doing all right. And then finally in November, this was, as it turned out, would be my thirtieth mission.
November of '44?
November of '44. The target was Meersburg. Did I tell you? Anyway, but I had heard the night before that he was going to take -- it was our turn as the squadron to lead the group. And so he said that he would take it, and he said that the day before, you know, if it comes up, you know. And then all of a sudden -- so I accepted that. That was fine with me. And then about 10:00 o'clock at night, as I remember, the target came in and Meersburg is one of the toughest targets as far as flak is concerned. It was a tough one. So about 4:00 o'clock in the morning I was awakened, and the sergeant said, sir, you're going to go on that. No, I'm not. The colonel is. He's taken -- Oh, no. He has a meeting at Wing Headquarters he has to go to. So I went, nothing I could do.
Okay.
But that was it, as far as I was concerned. It just showed the kind of man that I thought. And maybe it isn't fair, but everything was -- it was a culmination of recent things that made me come to that conclusion, that this is the type of guy that would do this sort of thing, that would renege. He saw the target, didn't want to go, tells the sergeant to have the major take the --
Makes up a story about going to a meeting or something?
Yeah. Well, maybe he did, yeah, okay. Yeah, we did a tough, tough day. All that was said about the target was true. And as far as I was concerned, that was the thirtieth mission. I thought the squadron was in good shape, and I felt that my time had come. I had no guilty conscience about leaving.
No.
So that was, I went in and told him, I'd like to go home. And there was no comment one way or the other, and he said okay. I said, this is my thirtieth mission, I'm eligible.
Within days of coming back?
It was very shortly thereafter, yeah. I didn't want to -- I didn't want to fuss around.
Right.
And the reason I think I did it was because I knew that I would be telling him what I thought of him, in so many words.
Yeah. You'd get in big trouble?
Yeah, yeah, and I didn't want to pop off and say, you know, that was not the way to do it, the army way to do it. I had done my job, filled my missions, go home, time to go home.
So he said fine?
And he said, okay, that's fine, yeah.
And from the time that he said that until you started leaving England, how long was that? Within days?
It took -- well, they cut the orders and I was gone within a week.
That was around early '45, February or so?
February of '45, yeah. They cut my orders.
To return to the US?
To return to the US. And so I packed up, and they drove me to, they drove me to where the ship was in Scotland. And I got on -- no, no, the aircraft was in Scotland and I flew back military.
Instead of by ship, you were able to fly?
Yeah, I flew back.
Your rank or --
Yeah. Well, not that so much, but that was the way it was arranged. I don't know whether rank had anything to do with it. But the fact that I was able to on military aircraft, I felt comfortable about going back home.
And you flew into what?
Well, we went to Iceland first for some reason. Then we went to Prestwick. No, we landed in Newfoundland, and then from Newfoundland we went into Prestwick, which was Northern Maine.
Okay.
Yeah. And from there I can remember going in, getting off the plane and getting -- and they had what they called a milk bar. Milk, I hadn't had --
Real milk?
-- real milk. And I don't know how much milk I drank, but --
Well, you had been gone for two years.
Yeah. And, you know, to get an egg, to get milk, to do things, we -- it was just so satisfying. And then from there my orders took me to Washington, DC, and then they cut orders for me to go military aircraft back home. So you'd go out to the these bases and they'd say, well, yeah, we have an aircraft going to Shreveport. And then from there -- and I did, I went to Shreveport. I stayed there until they could arrange another flight military.
Right.
And I went from there to Oakland, I think, Oakland.
You'd catch whatever you can to head west?
Oh, there was always something going.
Heading west?
Heading west. And I ended up at home, yeah.
So you flew into Portland, and it probably, what, took you a couple weeks to get --
Yeah, it took a couple weeks to get home.
And then when did you get out of the Air Corps?
My orders -- well, you had a 90-day leave.
Oh, you did? Okay.
Oh, yeah. No, here's what happened. The war was still on, and this is another little interesting story. I was assigned for reassignment at Second Air Force Headquarters in Colorado Springs, so I had 30 days -- I had 30 days at home, you know.
You hadn't been home for two years?
Yeah. So I had 30 days, family, the whole bit. And then my orders after 30 days was to report to Colorado Springs, Second Air Force Headquarters, and so I did that, went there. And they said, we will assign you from here, and go in to see -- there are a couple captains in there that will line you up on what your next assignment is. So I went in and sat down, and I looked at this guy across the desk, and I looked at him again. And I said, Walt? George? It was Walt Miller who was a Beta at Oregon, and I was a Phi Delt, and we knew each other. He said, what do you want to do? I said, let's talk.
Where did he assign you?
And he said, what we're going to do, George -- first off he said, we're going to assign you to Seattle, and you're going to a 30-day course at Boeing Airfield. Doing what? Well, they've got some classes up there that you should take. And I did, you know. And then from there he said, we're going to send you to Pueblo, Colorado. I said, what is in Pueblo? He said, that's a B29 base. B29s, I said, well, what's there? And he said, you know what? With your rank, he said, you're going to be in charge of the engineering department of the base so the master sergeants will report to you. You've got a -- you have somebody, a sergeant that's going to take care of all the information. It's your job just to see that that is taken care of, you know, the old chain of command.
Yeah.
You know, you were in the military. And I said, gee, that sounds like a tough job. Well, do you think you can handle it? You know, back and forth. And I said, it sounds like the thing that I'd like to do, and so I did. I went to Seattle 30 days and then down to Pueblo for -- let's see, how long was I in Pueblo? Well, until the war was over.
Summer of --
Yeah, summer of '45. You know, June 6th, the war was over, and then things began to unravel. But while I was there I got to fly a B29.
That must have been a thrill.
Oh, gee.
That was a big plane.
That was a big plane, and the big glass enclosure, you sat on a thrown-type of thing. I don't know if you've ever been in one.
No, but I've seen one.
It was just -- here I am, such a small body-type person to sit on that thing and crank that thing down. Oh, gee, it was a real --
Well, George, when did you finally get discharged?
Well, I had --
In August?
Yeah. In the mail they wanted me to join the reserves and join the -- and they gave me a rank of lieutenant colonel, you know, just paper, you know.
Sure.
Yeah, so I got that. And I had a good buddy who I've known for many years, and he had come back from overseas and we got together. His name was Mahoney, Dan Mahoney. And he said, what are you going to do about staying in the reserves? And I said, no, I've had enough. And he said, oh, George. He said, this thing, you know, you've got all these years in. Another 17 or 18 years and, he said, you can retire. And I says, Mahoney, you may like it. He went to Hill Military Academy. But I said, I want to have my own destiny as far as what I say goes on in my life, and I'm not going to have some general telling me that I'm going to go to this base and that base and spend four years here and four years there. And I said, what kind of a life is that? That's not the life I want to lead. I am not going to join the reserves, and I didn't.
So you were discharged in the fall of '45?
I was discharged -- we had 90 days, so it was January of '46.
When you were discharged?
Yeah. I mean, that's what the paper said.
Right.
It was just paper stuff.
For 90 days?
Yeah, you got paid. So I was a civilian in January of '46.
And that was the end of your military career?
That was it. I didn't go to any reserve meetings. You know, they had them out at the air base.
Sure.
I just was right up to here.
Well, you had done your duty.
Well, there were guys that liked that stuff, though, and I was too much of a maverick, I guess you'd call it. I wanted to control my own life.
Well, George, this is the end of your story.
Yeah.
Thank you very much and thank you for your service.
Thank you.
You told a great story. Thank you. END OF CD FILE NUMBER THREE. (INTERVIEW CONCLUDED.)