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The recording of the interview with Clark Macon Sells was digitized.
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This interview is being held with Clark Macon Sells. Clark was born on October 26, 1921. During World War II, he served in the United States Army, achieving the highest rank at that time of private first class. The interview is taking place on May 19, 2009, in Clarks home in Douglas County, Colorado. The interviewer is Joe Clements, a volunteer for the Douglas County History Research Center. Clark, lets begin with a little background information. Where were you born, and tell us a little bit about your youth.
I was born in Chicago, Illinois, and I went to grade school in Chicago. However, my father was transferred to Bloomington. He installed the new telephone system for the whole city. They went to a dial system, which was absolutely new. We stayed there a year. It took him a year for him to establish the system in the city--change of switchboards and so forth. Then, he was transferred by the company, which is a Chicago company, to Galesburg, Illinois. He put in the system there, and then he retired. So, we stayed in Galesburg. I went to high school there. Then, of course--I was going to be drafted--my mother knew a woman on the draft board, and she called and said Clark better get to a system where he wants. Otherwise, hes going to be drafted. So, I tried the Navy to no avail. They said "No, you wear glasses. We cant have you." I went to the Marines in Peoria, which was fifty miles away, and they wouldnt take me either because of the glasses. Now, of course, soon after that they said, "Well take you if you have a warm body," but with glasses they didnt want me. So, I was about to enter college--well, I was in college. Id been there three years, Knox College in Galesburg. Theyd offered--forgotten the name of it--military exemption for my senior year so that I could finish college. But, by April they stopped that, and I had to get on a train and go up to Chicago for induction.
So, when was this?
In 1943.
1943. Okay. So, did you have brothers and sisters?
Yes. I had a brother and a sister, twelve years old. She was a tagalong. My brother was already in the Army, or in the Air Force. He was six years older than me. He just died last year. He was ninety-one.
How much were you aware, during your early college years, about the war in Europe?
Hardly at all. Well, of course, there was ROTC [Reserve Officers Training Corps] at the school. I wasnt in that, but they seemed to be somewhat knowledgeable about it, and they were getting all the men prepared, but it didnt seem to concern me. I didnt think about the war.
Do you recall how you heard about the attack on Pearl Harbor?
Oh, yes! I was in the fraternity house Sunday morning, reading the paper, and the radio was on. Came through that we were going to be in war. President Roosevelt announced his famous speech. And so, but even then, I wasnt thinking, well, perhaps Ill be in the Army. I didnt know. I didnt think too much about it at the time. Someone else was going to fight the war.
Was that the general reaction of you and your fraternity brothers or was there --?
No, there were some boys in the ROTC in the room, and they felt, "Well, here we go." They were going to be in it. There wasnt any idea about draft or anything at the time. Actually, that was 1942-43. Well, it was, no, when did the war start?
Pearl Harbor was December, 1941.
41 [1941]. Thats when we heard that. I was able to go on. It was military reserve that I signed up with, with Knox College, so I could finish my last year in 43 [1943], but I didnt think too much about it until up to that time. As soon as I realized I was about to be drafted, thats when it hit me. Im going to be in it, too. So, I enlisted in that military reserve and thought I would be able to finish my last year in college, 43 [1943], but it didnt work out that way. [chuckles]
So, you were at college there in Galesburg. Were you living at home?
Yes.
Okay. So, youd really never been away from home before.
Right.
So, what do you recall about leaving home for the service?
Well, I dont know, I dont remember. I really dont remember any feelings about it. I guess I figured Im going to be in the Army and that was it. I didnt have any real feelings. I felt, well, its going to be an experience, you know. But, I wasnt worried about anything, I remember, at the time.
Your brother was already gone.
Yes. He was six years older. He had been in the Air Force training. He became a bombardier, went through training for that, so he was ahead of me on the whole thing.
Where did you go for basic training? What was that like?
I cant remember. We were inducted in Chicago. Im trying to think of the word. I cant think of it at all. But, I was sent to, they put me in the Air Force for training and sent me to Miami Beach. Yeah, that was quite an experience. We did basic training on a golf course in Miami. Theyd let us go at four oclock, so we all went swimming wherever. So, it was kind of a pleasant thing. Basic training wasnt really too hard. They were easy on us. I thought, "Well, this isnt going to be too bad, you know." By the end of the eight weeks, I found out that I was going to be a tail gunner in a bomber, and so, Id made a very good friend during that training, and we both got together, on the bulletin board, there was a notice that they needed people for ASTP, Army Specialized Training [Program], and so we both applied for it. Took the test, and, by gosh, we passed it and instead of going into the Air Force and becoming a tail gunner, we got to go to Atlanta to Georgia Tech. for science and math and so forth. Remained there for nine months. That was pleasant. At the end of nine months, the Army needed 36,000 warm bodies in Europe, and so we were immediately sent to Fort Bragg [North Carolina], the Army infantry training school. Took basic training which lasted ten or eleven weeks, and, boy, the basic training there was a lot different than in Florida.
In what way?
Oh, we had to take twenty-five mile hikes at night with full packs and rifle, which weighed twelve pounds, a Garand. It was tough, I mean. The aerobics, the exercises, things like that were really tough. [chuckles] Nothing like Florida.
Lets go back to Georgia Tech. What was the training there?
Science classes. I took calculus, science. Physics classes and so forth. I dont know what the intent was. They never really told us what we would be at the end of the training. But, it was very nice. We got to go into Atlanta weekends, and, oh, there were dances at the Armory, and all the good-looking little gals, I learned to jitterbug. [chuckles] It was just a nice nine months. There was hardly any physical training or anything like that. Of course, we had to have discipline and so forth. They put us up in barracks, which were constructed on the campus at Georgia Tech. That was a very nice thing, but then, all of a sudden, they needed people in Europe.
So, at Fort Bragg, there a very difficult physical regimen. What was social life like? What was the food like?
Oh, the food was--I dont remember that too much--the one thing I remember is thats where I learned to drink coffee because in the mess hall, the only thing put on the table for drinking was black coffee. I dont know why they did that, but, in order to get something to drink, you had to drink coffee. So, I learned to drink black coffee. But, it was a good experience because we got to go into Atlanta on weekends and see movies. We werent supposed to date the girls at the dances each weekend, but we did. I met a very nice girl there. In fact, she invited me out to her home, and her mother and father were wonderful. Every Sunday they had chicken, so I got a chicken meal every Sunday.
Southern fried.
Yes. Yes, it was.
Where did you go from Fort Bragg?
To Camp Kilmer [New Jersey] and out, overseas.
Wheres Camp Kilmer?
Its just in New Jersey, very close to New York. We were there, we werent there more than five or six days because we were being readied to get on the boat and leave. The one nice thing that happened there--we got leave one or two nights. It was a short hop into New York City, so my friend and I got to see the Empire State Building. We went up in that. We went to the RCA building and saw, I cant think of it, the girls.
The Rockettes?
The Rockettes, yeah. All in one day. We also went out to the Statue of Liberty. Then, we had to be back, nine oclock at night or something like that. The next morning we dis-embarked. Is that the right word? They took us to the ports, and we got on a Liberty ship and took off for Europe. We really didnt know where we were going at the time. They didnt tell us. We just had to take our packs and everything and get on the boat. The trip on the boat was about almost two weeks, and we ran in to two very serious storms. A lot of the guys got sick, hanging over the rail. It didnt bother me. Flying, oh, I left out the fact that I had a license back in Galesburg. 1941 they had a--they started a CPA [probably meant to say CAP - Civil Air Patrol] flying course, and I was able to go through that the summer of 41 [1941] and got my license to fly. I thought, oh, this is going to be my way into the Air Force, but, of course, I couldnt pass the Army test with my eyes, so I never got to fly for the Army, or for the Air Force. But, anyway, back to Fort Bragg and on the boat, it took almost two weeks. The storms were pretty bad, but even then on the trip, we werent sure where we were going to land or where we were going to be. Finally, near the end of the trip, we knew because we went through the Strait of Gibraltar and landed at Marseilles.
So, on the voyage across, was there ever any submarine concerns?
Yes. This was in, Ive forgotten the name, a large convoy. You know, like a mile away, there was a battleship, another battleship, and there were all sorts of Navy ships surrounding our troop ship. They were--oh, and of course, one of the things theyd said, "No smoking at night on board the ship." They could pick up a match light miles away. I didnt smoke at the time, but that was one of the warnings. We knew that was for submarines.
Did you have any duties while on board ship?
Nothing. I read a lot of books. They had a nice library. [chuckles] No. We landed in Marseilles, about Id say, about October 5th, I believe. Ive got my dates all in a little book. I kept sort of a diary. Then, all our equipment and so forth was there ahead, Jeeps, you know, heavy material and so forth. It actually went across from the boat to Marseilles, walking and traveling on the landing craft because the invasion of Marseilles had been about three days before. All of the ships and landing equipment that they needed to get on to the land was still in the harbor. So, we had to go from one ship to another because it was all so crowded. Then, after all the equipment was put on land, we bivouacked just outside the city limits. We were there about four or five more days, as I recall, getting in shape to go on in for the fighting and so forth.
When you landed in Marseilles, was there evidence that there had been a battle there already?
I didnt notice that much. Yes, there was. There were a few buildings that had damage and so forth. The Germans had been there. The invasion, they were, of course, pushed out. We came in to keep pushing them out. That was sort of a nice experience, getting ready to go ahead. A friend of mine and I looked around. We walked all over the city. That was the first time I tasted cognac. [chuckles] There was a little bar there. We could walk from the bivouac area back into the town for just two or three days that we were there to get ready.
What were your duties and responsibilities? What kind of units were you a part of?
Well, I was attached to a Headquarters company of the 398th Infantry. I was in the Message Center. I was a messenger. I had a Jeep that belonged to me, more or less, that I was to use. Some of the duties were--I cant think--coding and de-coding messages and then delivering them to the front. So, I had sort of a pleasant--not pleasant--but I had a very safe sort of place for the war. I didnt have to go to the line and use a rifle. I had a rifle on the Jeep, but I was always, during the war, I was always a little bit, a few miles back from the front. Then I had to drive up to the front for officers and messages that had to be delivered and so forth. I experienced being shot at, but I never had to shoot anybody. [chuckles]
So, the messages would be passed down in, you know, to the officers at the front?
Yes.
If there was a captain or a lieutenant at the front, you actually brought the orders to them.
Yes. I also had to deliver officers to the front and pick them up and bring them back. We had to, I had to drive at night through the country and find things. I was pretty good at it, too. [chuckles] One of my--I dont know if I should go on with these experiences, but one night I was delivering my captain, actually, to the front, and all of a sudden, there were explosions all around us driving up the mountain. There was German 88s. They were trying to hit us. They could see us. It was really dark out, but I had lights on, the little driving lights on the Jeep. In order to see the road, I had to have that. Well, they must have seen us, because all of a sudden, "boom, boom" right ahead of us and behind us, all around us. So, that was one of the scariest experiences I had. Then, I had to come back at night and try and remember the roads that Id traveled on. I did make a wrong turn, and a machine gun went off up ahead. A lot of bullets went through the windshield, on that side, fortunately. That was about the closest experience of getting shot, anyway.
Did you witness any casualties?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Lots of them. Going through the Black Forest, the infantry had already been through fighting, and there were bodies all around through the forest.
What were your emotions at the time?
Kind of scary. I mean, just seeing all those. Those were the first dead Germans that I had seen, and they were just all over the place. We kept driving through, but didnt stop. It happened just the day before, and the smell of gunpowder, smoke, and so forth, was still in the forest. It was sort of a wake-up thing, you know.
Do you recall any of the battles that you were involved in in delivering messages or any of the towns that were taken along the way? Do you remember any of the names?
Ive got a whole list of them. Well, we went through, at the beginning, yes. Let me think, where--the man that made or discovered--well, he didnt discover, he invented the milk --
Pasteur? Louis Pasteur?
No. Dijon. I think it was Dijon. We camped on his large acreage. Pasteur? I think that was what he invented, pasteurizing.
You mentioned that you had a book where you kind of kept information in. Tell us a little bit about that.
Well, I decided I wanted a diary, so I dont know where I got that book, either on shipboard or someplace. I wanted to keep addresses of my friends back home, so I had all of that in there. Ive put in copies of books that I read on board the ship and so forth. After we landed, I was told--everyone was told--do not keep information about where we are or where were going because if you were captured, you might have military information that they want, so dont write these things down. I thought, oh, that wont hurt to keep just some information. So, I started writing the names of each little village and town that we went through and spent any time in and what the dates were and so forth. Im very glad I did it because it refreshes my mind. Nobody captured me. I wasnt too worried. [chuckles]
In the fall of 1944, what were your expectations as to when the war would be over?
I dont think I even thought about it much. We were there and fighting and going on. Of course, we all wondered when the war would be over. I dont know that I anticipated any time or thought about when it would be over. We just knew we were there. We had to be there. I was young and naïve and immortal. [chuckles]
As the campaign progresses, and you get closer to the German line, was the German defense stronger? Was there any noticeable difference in combat?
Oh, yes. They--well, can I tell you about an experience in one of the little villages? We had moved into this village rather late in the evening. We settled into homes. It was a very small village along one road. There were houses and so forth along both sides of the road, and so we took over--some of the families were--they werent really told to leave, but we were billeted in their barns, in their basements where there were sometimes animals. A lot of hay and everything else, so we all settled down for the night. All of a sudden, bang, bang, bang! This was a village down between two hills, [chuckles] two mountains. They, evidently, were very bad in inspecting the area because the Germans were up in the hills, and they had every house sized in with mortars. In the middle of the night, they started blowing the roofs off the houses. It was really--we were attacked and very unprepared. At dawn, they got themselves together--the infantry--I think we were traveling with the 3rd and the 4th--what do they call it--front line guys--and so they started up the hills. We in the headquarters company went out of where we were--they had one little building where we all stayed--and watched it. It was like a movie. We were just standing there watching these guys go up the hill. Theyd shoot machine guns, going up ahead of them to clear the way. It was just like a movie. Thats all we could think of. We werent in danger, or we didnt think we were in danger, but, of course, when they got to the top, the Germans had already gone. Theyd blown all the houses to pieces and left. The Army was very negligent in bringing us into the village and not inspecting up above, and so we were ambushed.
Do you recall crossing into Germany?
Oh, yeah. Yeah. The Rhine, the Rhine River. Yeah, we had to build a bridge. The engineers came in to get the equipment across. Then, we went on from there. The war ended in Heilbronn. We went on through. Ive neglected to tell you, I--some of the water in these little places [unclear], there was a pile of horse manure next to the well. Well, we had pills for our water bottles and so forth, but somehow we would drink out of the well. I did, and I got the yellow jaundice, so I was sent back to--not Valence--the hospital was back a ways--so I was back there for a month and a half recovering from yellow jaundice. I remember one room I was in, there was a French soldier there, too. He died of the same thing, so I was a little worried about that. The only way they could treat jaundice was give you a lot of hard candy. Its crazy. That was the way they treated it back in those days. I cant think--what was invented that was a marvelous healer--we use it now--people take shots--well, they tried that--it had just come on line--so they shot us full of that stuff, which didnt have any effect on the jaundice. Why cant I think of the name?
Some type of antibiotic, though?
Yeah. Take a shot and it heals wounds.
Steroids? Steroids?
I guess it is a steroid, but it--oh, maybe Ill think of it later. But, anyway, that saved a lot of lives. Thats funny. My mind is just going.
So, crossing into Germany and the engineers are building the bridge, had the front already crossed the river? Or the engineers built the bridge for the front to pass?
No, that was near the end. We were not much in danger. The fighting, the front, the--what was the big, from Belgium--Germans pushed us all back?
The Battle of the Bulge?
Yeah. The Bulge. Thats what I was trying to think of. We werent directly in the Bulge. We were over to the southwest side, but we got pushed back. A friend of mine, actually, was in the fighting in the Bulge. It was terrible. They chased some of our Army guys right out without anything except the clothes on their back. They lost everything. We were fortunate. We werent that close to it. But, then, it was after that that we got closer to Germany, and we crossed the river.
Your duties at this time were still the same, coding, de-coding, delivering orders to the front.
Yeah. Messages.
Any other memories about combat that you can recall?
No. Actually, no. I dont know [unclear].
Within your unit, were your buddies within the unit, did they have the same responsibilities?
Well, we had just five or six that did that in the headquarters company. Of course, it was a platoon that we were members of. There were, also, men in that platoon that distributed telephone wires because they still had the "wind-up" phones, and they were strung through the bad part of the fighting sometimes. I cant think of that.
Was there close camaraderie within the platoon, between you and your buddies?
Two or three I made friends with. There were other guys that were hard to get next to. They were from New York, [chuckles] I remember. They were hard to be friends to, or with. Yeah, we were close. There were several that went through the whole thing together. Well, I remember one night, I was at Headquarters Company, and a call came through from my very good friend who was in Company C, which was in the hard fighting. He was wounded and at the medical center being readied to ship home. He called to ask for me to come down. It was about half a mile away, and so I got in a Jeep and rushed down there. He was on a gurney, and a shell, shrapnel, had gone through his helmet and gone into his shoulder and so forth. He was in pretty bad shape, but he wanted to see me. He pulled the blanket back, and they had a German--not a Luger--it was a P40, I think--that he had taken off an officer whom hed shot. Hed killed. He said, "Clark, will you take this for me? Take it back to the States if you get there and send it to me." He said, "Im afraid it will be lifted, and somebody will get it," on his route. So, he gave it to me, and I kept it all through the war. When I got home, I sent it to him. [chuckles] That was one of the bad fightings, one of the bad military events that I was very close to. By the way, that man--Dick Edwards was his name--became my--I was his best man. He married the nurse that he had in Connecticut. They sent him back to a hospital there. He called me. He said, "Will you be my best man?" So, I got on the train and went out there, and he ended up being my best man. We were married in New York. My wife, Pat, lived not in New York City, but oh--I could call and get the name--anyway, the wedding was in her home, and he came. I had asked my brother to be best man, and he was away out West. Something came up, and he couldnt come. So, I called Dick. He was my best friend.
Did your platoon have any casualties?
Yes. Yes. A sergeant. It was one night--anyway--a truck full of bodies came through. They had just been thrown onto an open truck. One of them was our sergeant. Hed been up at the front. I think thats the only one that I remember. We werent all in as much danger as the guys up at the front, but somehow hed gotten shot.
What was your, you and your buddies, what was your relationship with your officers?
With our one, Lieutenant Jack Goetz. He was a young man. I dont think he was much older than we were. We were about twenty. He was very, very good to us and not really so strict or straight-laced as some of the others. In fact, one night, during a bombing in one of these villages, he came by and said--he liked me--he said, "Clark, Im going out to that center,"--in the villages there was always a center fountain, water, full of water. He said, "Lets go out and brush our teeth." We went out and stood beside this thing, and the shells were going on around the village, and we brushed our teeth in the water. I tried to find him on the Internet. Jack Goetz, lived in New York City, but I never was able to get a hold of him.
Did you ever have contact with general officers?
Yes. A major. When we moved into one area for bivouac. We were not in danger there, but I had to drive officers around, but this one major--we had just moved into the camp, into the area to have a camp. I think my lieutenant said, "Youre elected to take the major around." He wanted to make sure everything was going in the camp, making everybody get settled and so forth. Oh, he bossed me around. He said, "Lets go here and there." I made the mistake--it was late--it took just all day. I hadnt been able to even open my bag or do anything. I dont know, I said the wrong thing. I said, "Are we almost done, sir? [chuckles] I havent been able to get settled." He looked at me, and boy oh boy, did he eat me out. Then he told my captain and lieutenant what I had done. I could have been court martialled, I think, for saying the wrong thing to an officer, you know, but nothing happened. I never drove him around again.
How were the higher ranked officers viewed? Were they viewed as being not in touch with the soldiers or --?
Yes. Id say definitely. They were usually back, well, in headquarters or not even there. Some of them never got up there at all except once in a while. I guess that was what officers were supposed to do. I dont know. No, there was never too much contact with them.
Did any of the friendships that you made during the war continue after the war?
Yes. Not only Dick Edwards, but I made two very close friends other than that. One guy in our platoon. He was a big, big Finnish man, and he had to carry the BAR [Browning automatic rifle], which is a very heavy gun, whenever we went places on foot. He was a mountain climber, and every time we got near mountains and we had a couple of days of rest, hed say, "Come on, Clark, lets climb a mountain." So, we went up on one mountain, and the Germans had built concrete --
Bunkers?
Yes. Yes. They were gone, of course. We had chased them out before that. So, we inspected bunkers and one thing and another. He remained a friend. He became a teacher in the redwood--where--in the state below Washington.
Oregon.
Oregon. Oh, in California. Thats where. And after Pat and I had two kids, we made a trip out there and went to see him. He was a professor at Oregon State, I think it was. No, in Washington, near the red forest. I cant think where it was. I just found one of his letters in all my work here. Then the other man, Parisi, Harold Parisi was a fine musician. Oh, what a wonderful musician and played the piano. He didnt--he interviewed for the division band. They said, "Well, no, we dont, can you play a band instrument?" He said, "No." Well, they knew he was a fine pianist, jazz pianist and everything, but they said, "Well, we just cant take you along if you cant." He said, "Well, what about a glockenspiel?" [chuckles] When they marched, he stood at the back of the band hitting the glockenspiel, so he got a very safe position with the band. We didnt see him much during the war. The dances and so forth that we had, he was always a fine pianist. He came back home and taught piano in Connecticut in one of the big cities, and when I was out there seeing Dick, we went to see him, and he taught piano. He inspired me to come back and take piano, get a degree in music after the war on the Bill of Rights [possibly referring to the G.I. bill].
Lets go back to Europe. What was food like during, you know, when you were out in the field?
I guess it was all--oh, well, we had to eat K-rations, things like that. Cant think of the other one. K-rations and C-rations? When we were out in the field, couple of guys had these little stoves--gasoline camp stoves like. One of them had one in our outfit, so wed heat some of that stuff up in a helmet. Thats the only way we could do it--a steel helmet and so forth. One time, in one camp--we were next to a farmhouse--and there were chickens. We had some ideas there. Anyway, the lady gave us a rooster. We drew straws to see who would kill the rooster. I got the straw, and I had to chop its head off, and [chuckles] I didnt want to do it, but we had chicken that night.
You mentioned mountain climbing. What else did you do when you had some free time?
Well, one of the German towns that we reached--we had a day or two of rest. Ive skipped something back a ways--but anyway, we used a swimming pool, just once or twice. But, I forgot what happened to me earlier. Oh, the yellow jaundice put me back in, I still cant think of the name of the city, for a couple of months, and after I, now, Im mixed up. Youre going to have to change things. I got the--couple of us were sent back during the war for "--bilitation"--rest?
R and R [rest and recreation]? Rest and rehabilitation?
Yeah. Yeah. We got to a camp--this was in Nancy, France, a hundred kilometers from Paris. Well, we had a week at this camp, supposedly, and this guy--I didnt know him very well--he was from another unit--but we got sent back together. The first day, he says, "Hey, lets get out of here and go to Paris." So, we did. We hooked a ride with Army trucks and everything else going back and forth. We got to Paris. We got in a cheap motel, or hotel. We had a good time. There was also a hotel in--this was, I guess, right after the war. Must have been. Just after it stopped, we got this rest period. Anyway, on the way back, we were hooking a ride, and a great big semi-truck came along, Army truck, and we asked, "Which way you going?" They were going directly back the direction we wanted. Going out of the city, out of Paris, one guy got out of the drivers side on the--outside the door --
The running board?
Yeah, the running board. I got out the other side, hanging on to the big mirror that goes out? Well, were on the way out of Paris, and all of a sudden, this guy slams on the brakes--he didnt want to hit something--and I went flying over the hood and landed on the concrete in front of the front wheel. Well, he got out of there in a hurry. He didnt want anything to do with how I was hurt and everything. So, my friend got off the other side and came over to help me, and we went over to the side of the road. I had broken bones in my hand and my elbow. Here I was with my hand in the air--anyway, after the truck left, a young woman across the street in a house saw all this. She saw that I was hurt very badly. She got me across the street, and--I dont know--it was smelling salts or something. I remember that it kind of woke me up again. So, this friend, fortunately--an Army ambulance came along the street--it was empty--it was a meat wagon, they call them. They didnt know I was hurt, but the other guy with me--I dont know whether he sat up front or what, but I got to lay back in the ambulance, and they took me almost all the way to Paris. I dont remember where they [unclear]--we had to go another route. When we got to Nancy, to that camp, I went to the Medical Center. The doctor examined it. He says, "How did this happen?" I said, "I got hit by a streetcar up in town." They had streetcars. So, he says, "Thats got to X-rayed." He took me right over. They had an X-ray machine. They put a cast on it. Thats what reminded me of it, when we got to the swimming pool in Germany. Oh, by the way, I had limited duties in the headquarters when we got back. I had this [unclear]. He said, "Well, you cant do much." He says, "You stay in the office." So, then this friend of mine, the big Finnish guy said, "Well, come on. We can walk around. Theres a YMCA--what did they call them--a German name for that type of thing--anyway, it had a swimming pool, and so I said, "I cant go swimming. Ive got this thing." He said, "Aw, come on. You can hold it up in the air and swim like this." Well, it got very wet, so I had to keep going back to the Medical Center and get a new cast. They said, "Hows this happening? What are you doing?" [chuckles] But anyway, I had to wear it for two or three months, I think. My hand and everything. That was one experience that wasnt too bad.
What about your contact with civilians in France? How were you received?
I thought we were received very well. A lot of guys thought the French were indifferent sort of to us, you know. After the war, our unit--not the whole unit, but parts of the unit--were sent to different areas. One of the first was Rheims, France. We were there a week or two. I got to go to the cathedral and things like that, and then, all of a sudden, if you didnt have many duties, theyd say, "Well, youre on guard duty tonight."--so you had to have four or six hours, guard the outside of the building or wherever we were. Thats about the only thing we had to do. Next, we were sent--I dont know where theres another spot that we were sent to--but finally, I was sent to Paris, the last six months. I was very lucky. I got to live in Paris with hardly any duties at all. I was free to go wherever. I went to the Louvre every Sunday afternoon. I met a young lady. There was a USO [United Service Organization] center sort of--I think it was called a USO--but it was for soldiers in this, I think it was a Rainbow Hotel. There was a whole big area in there, and there was a grand piano, and I got to play the piano again. I had been trained with music ever since I was in grade school, but I hadnt been able to play one until then. That was most enjoyable. One of the young ladies that was French, sort of a guide. Shed trained as a guide. I liked her, and she seemed to like me, and she wasnt supposed to date soldiers but we got together, and she took me through Paris. She took me to the Opera Comique, and I got to see a Debussy thing. She took me around to different churches, some of the early churches in Paris. That was a wonderful experience. She had a finger that was infected somehow, and it was all bound up. I found out. I said, "Whats going on?" She said, "Well, it just doesnt heal." Well, I found a medical, Army station, where we could all go, you know. So, I took her there, and I said, "Can you do something for her finger?" And it was that new stuff Im trying to think of. He gave her a shot of that, and it healed it in a couple of days. Starts with a "p." UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE VOICE: Penicillin.
Penicillin. That was wonderful stuff. Anyway, she got the benefit of it. They didnt have that in France. That was a wonderful thing.
When you got to Germany, how did the civilians treat you?
Well, I dont remember any direct contact. Thats another thing I forgot to tell you about. After the war, we were billeted in a whole block of houses. The people were asked to leave, kicked out of their houses. This one house we were in--there were I dont know how many guys in this one house--we just took over houses all around the block. One nice thing, they allowed the former inhabitants--the women to come in--they had gardens in the back of the house. They were allowed to come in for two or three hours in the afternoon. Well, Id go out and we werent supposed to fraternize, but Id go out in the back and talk to this lady and her daughter. Broken English, and I didnt know much German, but I got to know her very well. She accepted us very nicely. Anyway, one day I said, "What do you miss? What did you miss during the war and now?" She said, "Coffee." Well, I wrote a letter home to my dad and said--of course, coffee was hard to get during the war--even here--but I said, "Can you get some coffee together?" The next mail, I had a pound of coffee that he had found, and so the next day or so I went out in the yard and gave it to her. Youd thought Id given her a million dollars. [chuckles] What happens, this nice experience. A couple days later, she says, "Can you get out and come to my brothers house?" Thats where she was living, which was about a block and a half or two blocks away. Of course, around the block, they had guards at all intersections, and we werent supposed to fraternize and so forth, and she said, "Can you get out?" I said, "Well, Ill try." That night I went out after dark, and I knew one of the guys at the corner. I said, "You mind if I slip by for a little while?" "No," he says, "but dont be late." So, I found my way to her house, and I went in. She met me at the door. I looked around in the house, you know, and here was a German soldier with just part of his uniform on. I dont know how he got there, but he was escaped or allowed to leave. He was over in the corner. Anyway, she invited me over to the dining room table and brought out what looked like a pie. It was a pie, but it was strange. I said, "What kind of pie is this?" Onion. Id never heard of an onion pie, but it was good. Anyway, after a short time, she came out and presented me with this [background noises]. Ive kept it ever since.
What is that?
Its a letter opener. Its not silver, but it shines up like silver. So, that was a present that Ive had ever since.
Where were you when you heard that the war in Europe had ended? How did you hear about it?
Oh, we were in Heilbronn, Germany. Thats the last place that we were, so, boy, we let out some cheers and one thing and another, but we were there about five or six days even after the war was ended. Another funny thing--not funny, but a wonderful thing that happened--was that a reconnaissance outfit from the Army that flew four like Piper Cubs but two-place. They were used for reconnaissance work. Well, they came in and built themselves a short runway, and decided to give all the soldiers that wanted, a short ride in a plane. I got in line to get my ride, and when I got in the plane, I told him I had a license that Id gotten in 1941. He says, "Oh, would you like to drive?" [chuckles] He took it off and then gave me control of the plane. Theyd been giving these guys about fifteen or twenty minutes up in the air, you know, but he let me fly for half an hour. I got to fly over a lot not too far away from where we were. That was a wonderful experience. I said, "Could you make a note so I could put it in my pilots book?" So, he wrote out a, he was an instructor, so he had the power to write it down, signed it, and Ive kept it ever since and Ive put it into my log book. Another half hour. Anyway, my nose is running. [chuckles]
Ill ask a question. How were you able to stay in touch with family and friends back home?
Well, we had V-mail. Of course, when you wrote things while the war was going on, you had to turn it into your officer of the unit who inspected it. Of course, you didnt write anything too personal, but after the war, you could tell where you were and so forth. Of course, I wrote regularly to my parents and to friends, old girl friends, people I knew at Knox College and so forth. Yeah, I kept up a good correspondence. Oh, one of the things that happened. Of course, I told you my arm was in a cast for, oh, probably two or three months because I kept getting them wet and they kept putting them on, but I had to learn to write left-handed. Actually, it wasnt too hard, but the slant was the other way, so I had to write that way. Actually, it was better writing, I think, easier to read than my right-hand writing because I was very careful about doing it. My mother picked it up. She says, "Your writing has changed. Whats happened?" I didnt tell anybody at home what had happened. I knew theyd think I got shot or something and wouldnt talk about it. Yeah, I dont think I told her. I said, "Oh, I was hurt" or something and thought Id write that way. But I kept up the correspondence writing left-handed. I can still do it pretty well.
After the war ended, how long did you stay in Europe?
Six months.
Where were you and what did you do?
Thats when we were first sent down to Rheims, starting from that point and a couple of other places. Ill have to think harder, refer to that, and then finally into Paris. I like to say--well, they say, "You were in Paris all that time?" I say, "Yeah, somebody has to do it." Somebody had to do it. We got to go to all the high points in Paris and so forth. Then, we were shipped, actually sent to, Vincennes--whats just outside of Paris? [unclear] there was sort of a castle and so forth, then from there, we were sent to Dunkirk where the boat was that we went home on, another Liberty ship. Of course, wed heard things about them breaking in half during storms. They were not big boats, and they werent made very well. Made in a hurry during the war. I think the name of the ship was Sheridan, or something like that. U.S.S. Sheridan, whatever it was. Took another week and a half to go home.
Where did you come in?
Same spot, I think, near Camp Kilmer. I cant think of the port name. But then, we got on trains, and they sent me home to Camp Grant [Illinois].
Coming into New Jersey, did you actually come into New York Harbor?
You know, I cant remember. I think so. I think we saw the Statue of Liberty.
What was that like?
Nice. [chuckles] Yeah, it was, then we knew we were home. I cant think of any--but it was, you know, so much in a hurry. Taken right off the ship and taken into a train station, I think. I dont remember any details about that, but I remember the ride home and getting to Camp Grant. We were there a day or two, and while we were--what--released from the Army --
Discharged?
Discharged. I called my dad in Galesburg, and he and my sister came up and got me.
What did you do in the days and weeks following your release from the Army?
Well, I knew I was going to go back to school. I was released in March--yeah, first day of spring, I think. 21st or whatever it says in there. Well, I got very interested in [unclear]--I used to do book-binding just for fun, and so I didnt have much else to do or I knew I was going back to Knox in the fall, but I got a job in a local book-binding place, just to help out and see how they did it commercially and so forth. That was kind of fun. It wasnt full time. Id go there two or three days a week. What else did I do? Oh, I think I went to the airport and rented a plane because I had been anxious--oh, thats something that I forgot while at Fort Bragg. On the weekends, we were more or less free, so Id get a pass to go into--whats the city next --?
Atlanta?
No, no, its in North Carolina, or South Carolina.
Oh. Oh.
The name of the city starts with an "F." Fayetteville, which was only three or four miles away out of the camp, so if we couldnt get a ride, wed walk in. I took my friend, Dick Edwards, no, this was before the war. Yeah, this is during training at Fort Bragg. Dick Edwards is there, and I said, "Come on. Lets go into Fayetteville. Well see if we can rent a plane." He says, "A plane?" he says. We found this little local airport, just outside the city, and went out there. There was a big fat kid there, and I said, "Id like to rent a plane." He says, "Oh, okay. Come on in." He went into the shed and signed us up. He said, "Ill have to take you for a check-ride before," and so we got into a little Piper Cub, just two-seater, you know. I took it off and flew it all around the area, came back and landed. So, then Dick Edwards got in, and we flew all over the area for about an hour. When I came back, landed, why, there was an older man there, so I paid for it and he said, "Who checked you out?" I said, "Big fat kid over here." He says, "Hes just a student." [chuckles] I gave him the devil. He gave the guy that done it the devil. Anyway, I was lucky to be alive. [chuckles] The boss wasnt there at the time. So, that was another funny experience.
How did the war change you?
Oh, I think I grew up a little. I dont know. It made me more aware, I think, of other people. I dont know. I dont think it changed me too much. You know, I was never like in fear of dying. It never occurred to me that it might kill me, you know, the war. I got home and just back to business, you know. I got back in school. There wasnt a whole lot of change. Except I was older than most of the students.
Did you learn anything in the Army that you used later in life? Skills or just lessons?
Cant say I did.
What was your career after the war? What was your career in life?
I taught school for thirty-one years. When I came back on a G. I. Bill, besides music courses, I took education courses, and got a teachers license. Immediately on graduation, [background noise] there were people at campus looking for teachers. Well, I got a job in two minutes. By that time, see, Id met Pat while I was in school after the war. She was an artist and took in art work and so forth. We dated for a year and a half. She graduated a year ahead of me, but we got married after she graduated, and I had another year. We had our daughter, Jennifer, nine months after we were married. [chuckles] Well, nine months and two weeks. Here we had the baby, and I had to get a job, so, as soon as I graduated I was accepted at a school to teach. So, Ive been a teacher ever since.
Where did you teach?
Well, the first job I got was very unsatisfactory. It was a little town called Cambridge, Illinois, fifty miles away from Galesburg. They started me at a very low--of course, teachers pay was low anyway--but, the first job was thirty-two hundred dollars or something like that. Well, anyway, at the end of the first job, they offered me another year or wanted me to come back, but they didnt raise my salary more than a couple of hundred dollars, I think. So I said, "Well, no thank you. Im going to look for another one." So, the next job was back close to Galesburg. I stayed there two or three years. Then, I got a better job teaching math very close to Galesburg, so I stayed at that school six years. Then, we moved up to the Chicago area, back to Chicago. I taught there more than seventeen or eighteen years, teaching math. I had gotten sort of a math--well, I did--I had a math major before the war--oh, that was another thing. They took me out of school in April of my senior year, and thats when I went into the Army, so I hadnt finished graduation. So, after I got back, I went to the school and told them that Id been at Georgia Tech for nine months, and they looked over the bunch of courses I took, and they said, "Okay. Were going to give you your certificate." I said, "Well, cant it be registered for 43 [1943]?" They were going to put me in a later class, you know. I said, "I want to be with my friends from 43 [1943]." So, I ended up with my certificate as of Class of 43 [1943]. Well, lets see, I guess that takes care of that. But then, I got another degree after the war, so I have two "B.A.s" [Bachelor of Arts degrees].
Do you belong to any veterans organizations?
Not now. I think I joined the American, whats it called?
American Legion?
American Legion a couple of years, well more than that--while we lived in Abbington, Illinois, which is eleven miles south of Galesburg. Yeah, they had a American Legion there. After we left there and came up to the Chicago area, I never re-joined. I contribute to them, but I havent --
Have you attended any military reunions?
No. The 100th Division had one reunion. I was notified. I was in school at the time. We decided Id better not go. Id wait for another one, but I never got another notice of another reunion, so Ive never been to another reunion.
How did you end up in Douglas County, Colorado?
We have two children here. [chuckles] We lived for forty-two years in Hinsdale, Illinois, which is southwest of Chicago, twenty-five miles. Getting older and so forth. That was just a year and a half ago, we left. Jennifer, our daughter, lives here in Littleton, and our son lives in Denver. Of course, wed been making the trip by driving once or twice a year--wed stay here ten days or so, a week. Finally, that got to be too much. We came out our last visit about two years ago and decided wed better find a place here. Thats when we found this place. Its worked out pretty well.
Is there anything else youd like to add about your military experience?
No. I think Ive told you even more than I remembered. [chuckles] I mean, things came out while I was talking to you. I enjoyed my visit six months in Paris. That was the best part of the whole war deal. I like to say I cried when the war was over, I had such a good time.
Thanks for sharing your story.
Thank you.