Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with Robert V. Mitchell, Jr. was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling.
Could you state your name and address for the record?
Robert V. Mitchell, Jr., 2716 Mendocino Circle, Plano, Texas, 75093-3391. (The following is a recorded interview of Robert V. Mitchell, Jr.)
Good afternoon. Today is May 6th, 2011. My name is Sue Mitchell. I am conducting an oral history interview at the home of Hilda Mitchell, 407 Mountain Road, Jaffrey, New Hampshire, with Robert V. Mitchell, Junior. Good afternoon, Bob.
Hi, Sue.
To jog your memory, my first question is: Were you drafted or did you enlist?
I enlisted in, yeah, in the U.S. Army.
Any particular reason?
Mostly for patriotism. My dad was in the service, in the Air Force. And --
Um-hmm.
And the -- the nation was drafting people and I was draft-exempt but I decided to join.
Okay. Where were you living at the time?
When I decided to join -- or join, we were living on Cape Cod in Massachusetts. But by the time I actually joined it was in Xenia, Ohio. I had moved my car and personal belongings home where my mom and dad moved -- lived at that time, so in Xenia, Ohio in 19 -- the 30th of September, 1966, I enlisted in the Army in Cincinnati.
Okay. Why did you pick the service branch that you joined?
I picked the U.S. Army because they had a helicopter flight program and I wanted to be a pilot, and I didn't have to have four years of college to be an Army pilot. I did in every other service. And I only had an associate's degree, so I picked the Army for that reason.
What did it feel like on your first days in the service?
It was, it was exciting, of course, the -- having been an Air Force brat I was kind used to being around the military, so I probably wasn't intimidated as much as everybody else, but early on the drill sergeants were yelling at you and screaming at you and calling you maggots and stuff like that, but just -- it was trying to whip everybody into shape and understand taking orders and --
And that's part of your boot camp training and experience?
That was absolutely part of the boot camp training. Right.
Is there anything else you can tell us about the experience in boot camp?
Actually I thought it was -- I went to boot camp in -- at Fort Polk, Louisiana in what, October, November, and maybe even early December of 1966. The things I remember about it is it was about 270 people I think in my company and it was, it was a lot of physical training, rifle range, lot of forced marches, those kinds of things. And they just pushed us, I mean, very hard. Some of the forced marches, I can recall forced marches where you'd start with 270 and 30 would make it back to camp. It was everybody else fell by the wayside.
Okay. Do you remember any of your instructors in particular?
Not by name or anything. I -- they're vivid in my memory.
You remember what they made you do?
Yeah. I remember exactly the kind of instructions that they gave us, and you know, they just demanded that -- the very best of from us, and --
And how did you get through it, just --
Oh.
Perseverance?
Yeah, I just, it was -- it was kind of exciting. I mean, like the forced march I said with the, you know, thirty people ended up making the, making the march. Both -- I had new boots because my -- when we first went in, they didn't have boots to fit me. So the first three or four weeks I was use to wearing my military dress shoes for training. And then my boots came in. Well, everybody else's boots were worn in by then, but I remember finishing that forced march and both of my feet, the front of my ankles and the back were bleeding from -- but it was just there wasn't any quit in me and that's what they wanted to see, is who they could get to quit. Well, most of the people quit. We -- very few finished the course. And I finished, and I remember people asking how come you did that, you're bleeding like crazy, it's like, I mean this is peace time, what's going to happen in war if we don't do this?
Exactly. Um-hmm. Okay. We'll go on to segment two, your experiences. Which war did you serve in?
Served in Vietnam.
And where exactly did you go?
I was in two places in Vietnam. I went, I went over to Vietnam with a unit from Fort Campbell, Kentucky and we, we were stationed at Pleiku in Vietnam. And after nine months there, I was -- we went over as a unit, and they didn't want whole units to leave at the same time. So they would rotate parts of units and trade them with other units to -- and we called it infusing. And so I moved to Hue, Vietnam, in the northern part of the country, and I was actually there a month. I didn't serve my whole three months there.
Do you exactly remember arriving there, is it still vivid your mind?
I do.
Setting foot in Vietnam?
I do. It was, as I said, we -- I -- after basic training I went to flight school. And when I graduated from flight school, a lot of people went to Vietnam but most of my flight school class went to Fort Campbell, Kentucky, because the 101st Airborne Division was deploying to Vietnam as an entire unit. So we trained with the 101st for -- oh, gosh, seven or eight months, and they deployed a little before us because we didn't have enough helicopters to go with them. So I deployed actually to Vietnam in July of 1968. And we all went over on C-141s as a whole unit, we flew in through Yokota, Japan, and landed actually in Pleiku. When we got off the back of the airplane, we were all in our combat gear, steel pots and all of that. And the first thing I saw on the ramp was my brother Gary, standing there in his soft hat with an AK47 slung over his shoulder. He says, "Are you guys for real?" Because the Air Force pilots told us they -- and I'm sure now that they were jerking our leg, you know, we gotta get in there and we gotta get out fast, they're gonna mortar us, we don't usually let these big jets land here, you know. So we all came hustling off the back of the airplane and there's my brother standing there like -- and he had been for several months. And it was like, Oh, c'mon guys.
Question: What's a steel pot?
A steel pot is the helmet, the steel helmet that we wore.
Okay. What was your particular job assignment? Obviously flying.
I was a helicopter pilot. When I first got to Vietnam I was flying helicopter gun ships, so our job was obviously to shoot in support of and protect the soldiers on the ground.
Um-hmm. And obviously you saw combat?
Yes.
Were there many casualties in your unit?
Actually not. One of the things, one of the lessons that I learned that, that I think did me well through my career because I stayed in the Army, and you see it in the Army today, is that a unit -- our unit went over as a unit and so everybody had trained together for, gosh, flight school, and that year and a half or two years before we went. And so none of the people that went over -- that I went over with got killed, which was I think a credit to our training and our, and our comradery and our -- the fact that we recognized each other's voices on the radio and all those kinds of things. Now, we did lose people. But it was always the new guys that got killed. Unfortunate for them, but it -- it always taught -- I think taught me a lesson, and the way the Army operates now is they rotate whole units into combat and that's the reason, really. But Vietnam, it was all individual replacement. And I remember my mom didn't want me to go and said she could get me to -- force me to be deferred because my brother was already there and they wouldn't send me. And I said please don't do that to me because I want to go with the guys that I've trained with. And I'm here today to talk about it, I think that's probably one of the reasons.
Obviously you weren't a prisoner of war, but can you tell us a couple of your most memorable experiences?
Sure. I had -- I got two Purple, yeah, two Purple Hearts when I was in Vietnam. And that's kind of something you never forget. On the 17th of November 1968, I was flying the front seat of a Cobra west of Pleiku along the -- in the Ia Drang Valley on the Cambodian border. And just about -- just about sundown, we took a lot of enemy ground fire and a round came through the front, the cockpit in the front seat, and most of my wounds were in my head, and I thought I -- actually thought I had been killed, but and I started to black out but I didn't, didn't completely pass out. And part of the shrapnel hit me in the knee and in the right arm, but mostly in the head. So my back seat was -- the aircraft was all shot up. The back seat was not wounded. So he flew the aircraft to the closest special forces camp. We landed, I got out, medics attended to me, put me in one of our helicopters, and they flew me to Pleiku to the Air Force base hospital there. And the second time was after I had gone up to Hue in Vietnam, I was -- at that point I was flying 0H6 Scouts. And we were flying out on the Laotian border, and this was the 8th of May, 1969. And I had a particularly -- one of the things I regret is that I told this young kid this, is that it was my first time flying with him, it was probably his third time out up the air, the unit had come over fresh from the States. And they put us in to give them some experience and make sure the whole unit didn't rotate at the same time, like I said before. And we were flying overheard on an infantry unit that was on the ground, and they were asking us for guidance, and we were directing them from the air as to how they were following this trail. While we were overheard, their point man, which is the guy out in front, was ambushed and shot. So there was a small firefight for one -- on the ground, and then they asked me because I was overhead if I could come down and and scout right in front of them. Because I was there, I hadn't -- I could see that the enemy that had fired on them had not run across the river. There was a small little river there. So I knew the enemy was between them and the river. So I, I dropped down and I was -- and moved, and when we flew scouts I always went fast first because if they're gonna to shoot at you, if you're going fast, there's a chance, good chance they'll miss you. So I'm running at 120, then 100, then 80.
Is that miles per hour?
Yes. And, and slowing down, you know, because you get a good look the slower you go. But you start fast and then slow down, hoping that if they're gonna shoot, they'll shoot fast and miss and then you know where they are, or at least have an idea. We got down to about -- probably about 40 knots, it was enough where I could kick the aircraft sideways a little bit and fly it out of trim so the observer who flew on the left side could, could see better. And he asked me, he said, Sir, he says, How come you keep making left turns all the time? I'm like, I grinned at him and I said, Well, naturally to keep you between me and the bullets. And he looked at me rather incredulous, and I said, No, I'm just kidding. I said, You're the observer, I need your -- for you to do your job, I need to put you in a position where you can see. You're on the left side, that's why I always make left turns. About that time the infantry leader on the ground said, I've got a Medevac inbound for my wounded, can you -- do you think there's a spot to the left right up there where you are that they can land? And I said I'll check it out. And at that -- as I turned rapidly to the left, we received a bunch of automatic weapons fire right in the cockpit. And this kid who I've just told that I was keeping him between me and the bullets was shot through the legs three times, three places. He returned fire, as I'm dumping the aircraft over to escape, or try to escape, as I'm doing that, I'm calling that we're hit, we're receiving fire, and then I was hit in the left leg. And, and then the engine started to come off line and I said, And we're going down. And there was a -- I told you there was a river right in front of us, and there was a sand bar there so I was headed -- I just prepared the helicopter to land on the sand bar, but at the same time I was trying to increase the engine power with the governor increase switch, it -- that didn't work but the engine held at low side, which means it was still flying. And so we -- as, as we're clearing out the land on the sand bar, I realized that the engine has not quit. It has not been shot out completely. And so now again, I'm -- I take off and start flying down the river, kind of under the trees actually, and lots of firing behind us still. The aircraft had been shot through the fuel cell so you could smell jet fuel. My observer, one of the rounds hit his femoral artery so he's bleeding extremely badly. And in my initial: Get the heck out of Dodge, I started to fly into Laos. As I'm flying down this river I said, Oop, this is the wrong direction. Popped up out of the creek and headed back, hard left the other way, called the Cobra overhead and said call, call LZ Lash, which was the closest LZ.
What's an LZ?
Oh. Landing zone. So there was a fire base there where there was some art -- infantry soldiers and artillery. It was only about four miles from where we were. So I started flying for LZ Lash, I said call and tell the medics we're inbound, we're both wounded. We need them on the pad. And my observer by this time was already going into shock. And anyway, I took his rifle and I put it up on the dash. I grabbed the first aid kit off of the wall behind my head from -- on the left between us, and I handed it to him and I said, You need to stop the bleeding on your leg and he -- he was just -- had his fists doubled up between his knees and was just rocking back and forth. And so he was already going into shock and blood was everywhere, because it was his artery.
Did he make it?
He did make it, which but it was only because -- it was funny because that aircraft was suppose to be restricted to 80 knots with no doors and we were running 130 knots with a shot-up engine, and anyway, when I came into the fire base it was just a small landing zone on the top of this mountain, almost overshot because I was so hyped and so -- going so fast. Planted the aircraft on the ground, he unbuckled and rolled out even as it was sliding, and I could see the medics running down the hill just like you see on -- in MASH on TV. They were running with their aid bags in the air. The aircraft slid to a stop, almost going off the side. It was at that -- another exciting part. I jumped out and ran around the aircraft. He had -- we had slid past where he was laying, the medics were already working on him. But they were working on him, one was putting an IV in and one was bandaging the -- trying to get the femoral artery to stop. Get that bleeding stopped. They weren't working on his other leg. So I ran back to the aircraft and got the first aid kit and, and started to bandage his other leg, and I felt -- I still had my flight helmet on and everything, and felt somebody grab me by my shoulder and said, Son, my men will get it. I just jerked my shoulder away and I said, I, I've got it. He said, No, he grabbed me again, he says, No, I said my men will get it. I looked up and it was the battalion commander for this unit that was apparently on the mountain, and I said, Okay, sir. And I stood up and when I did I limped, and he said, What's the matter? And I said, Well, I've been shot, too. I did -- in all the excitement --
You forgot you got shot because --
In all the excitement I had forgotten that I was --
-- his injury was worse than yours, so.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And so, so he grabbed some kid and said here, help him. And so anyway, they worked on the observer, they got him stabilized, there was already a Medevac inbound for the soldier that was wounded when we were flying overhead. They had turned him back because that kid died. But they turned him back again to come and get us. And so the Medevac -- it wasn't too long before the Medevac arrived. In the meantime, I -- after we got my leg bandaged and I went and I -- we walked around and, and I was post-flighting the aircraft to write down what the damage was and everything, doesn't make sense now, but it was -- and literally there was blood all the way back to the tail rotor and down the side from my observer, and I don't remember his name.
All right. Okay.
But we got -- yeah, somebody was walking with me and we were counting bullet holes, and they said, Oh, here's some, one here, and I said, Well, those are from yesterday. It was like they just couldn't believe that we did this day after day after day.
Hence your Purple Heart.
Yeah, and hence my second Purple Heart.
Second Purple Heart.
Yeah.
That's great. We have a list of your medals listed on your DD214, if you could just quickly read them off so we have them in the record.
Sure. I'll just go from high to low. The Defense Superior Service Medal, two Legions of a Merit, two Purple Hearts, three meritorious service medals, 18 air medals. And just -- an air medal, we got basically an air medal for every 25 combat missions, so 18 will tell you as to how many combat missions I had. And they didn't round up so there may have been a few more than that that didn't make it. A Joint Meritorious Unit Award, National Defense Service Medal, two awards. Vietnam Service Medal with four bronze service stars, Armed Forces Reserve Medical -- or Medal. Army Service Ribbon, Overseas Service. Let's see. It jumps down because it's -- oh, here we go. That last one was a ribbon. Let's see. Republic of Vietnam Gallantry Cross, Unit Citation with Palm. Republic of Vietnam Campaign Medal. And then the Master Aviator Wings.
Okay. Great.
That's it.
Okay. We'll move on to segment three, which was life in the Army. Obviously back in the sixties we didn't have the Internet, but you stayed in touch with your family probably through letters and phone calls?
Writing letters. Yeah. Writing letters.
Writing letters. Okay.
No phone calls. Not from --
No?
No calls --
Okay.
-- from Vietnam. The only good thing about that was we could write "free" in the upper right corner and we --
Okay.
-- didn't have to put a stamp on it.
How about the food and supplies, things like that?
Being an aviation unit, we had pretty good support. Most nights we spent in the base camp. We were based with the First Aviator -- or with the Fourth Infantry Division when I was in Pleiku so we were at their main base camp. So when we came in every night, we had a pretty nice place to stay. We built our own barracks and our own showers and all that kind of stuff. And but we had an Army mess hall. As I recall, the food was generally very good. The milk was a little bit strange because it was dehydrated and then reconstituted. And instead of butter fat they used coconut oil which was -- gave it a strange taste, so that was a little bit strange.
Um-hmm.
And then the other meals were C-rations, so the food was pretty good.
Okay.
And generally on time.
Okay. And in talking to you, I don't see that you have some of the stress that other people that have served in the military have. But you obviously felt pressure and stress. You just don't seem to -- you seem to control it better than other people that I've seen, but you obviously felt that when you were over there.
Well, you know what I think? I really think that at least for me, Vietnam was a very individual thing. And it was for a lot -- I think it was for a lot people. I can't imagine, I don't know what it was like to be an infantry person on the ground as part of that unit. But I do know what it was like to be in the, in the combat aviation, and it was kind of a cavalier attitude, actually. We had a secure base camp at night so we were pretty safe at night. And then in the daytime we'd go out to find and engage the enemy. It was kind of like being a gladiator if you want to think about it that way. You go out day after day after day to fight and engage and try to kill the enemy. But part of it is, I -- you got to deal with it straight up every day. You know, a lot of the people didn't, they were removed from it and I -- and hence maybe -- I know my dad for example had post-traumatic stress because he put aviators in harm's way and they'd get shot down, and there was nothing he could do about it to help them. And whereas I was right there dealing with it, they shoot at me, I'd shoot at them.
Um-hmm.
And but the other part of it I think is I really learned something about myself, and that I never, ever shot anybody I didn't think deserved to be shot. In fact sometimes part of the way they worked it was there were free fire areas. There's not supposed to be any good guys in this area. If you see anybody, you may kill them. And especially when I was flying scouts, I'd be down there scouting along the edge of the river or something, and I'd come up on some fisherman or some Montanyard, and the Montanyards were the local natives like American Indians were Native Americans, they had -- Montanyards were native Vietnamese, but they weren't Vietnamese people, they were mountain people. They're dressed in loin cloths, they're fishing, they got a little spear, a little bow and arrow or whatever. And instructions would come down, you know, they're in the free fire zone, kill them. And I'd say no, they're not bad guys, I'm not going to kill them. Now I'm sure there were people that would do that, but I didn't. And, and but at the same time, one of my biggest regrets is I let 20 bad guys go one day, and I wish, always wish that I would have shot them. And the reason I didn't is because I couldn't get permission. I asked for permission, it was denied, and I said, I know they're bad guys. Well, what are they doing? Well, they're waving at me. But well, I said that's because I caught them red-handed, and they know our rules of engagement.
Yeah.
They're, you know, I really want to shoot them. And they said no. And then finally about five minutes later they called back and said, Oh, those are bad guys, shoot them. And I said, Well, they're gone. You know, once they get in the jungle, they're gone. And the reason I regret it is -- and it goes back to what you said about the stress is I never, I never ever hated the Vietnamese or the North Vietnamese or anybody else. It wasn't a hate thing. It was -- we were -- they were opponents. We were -- they were our enemy, we were their enemy. And it was just, you know, they'd shoot me and I'd shoot them and yup, need be. But the reason I was upset that I didn't get them is because not because I wanted more body count, but it was because how many of -- how many people did they kill because I didn't kill them. Innocent villagers. They used to go in and terrorize the village, the Vietnamese villagers; how many Americans did they kill because I didn't kill them? So that's the regret I had.
Okay.
And I had a lawyer ask me once, she actually said, At least you don't have those 20 souls on your conscience. I said, I don't have any souls on my conscience.
That's great.
So -- yeah. For whatever reason, I dealt with it.
How about, did you do anything special for good luck?
The only thing I can think is that everybody in -- everybody in my unit had a short timer's calendar. How many days until you got to go home. So from the day I got there, I had three calendars and every morning I checked -- two of them counted down and one of them counted up. So every day before I'd go, and I for some reason, I'd check it off in the morning when I got up as opposed to the end of the day when I got back, and so I checked --
Being an optimist.
Yeah. So I'd check the day off in the morning. And one -- and now that you said that it triggered something else. I had two of my good friends killed one day. And we were eating lunch at this fire base and as we're getting back in the helicopters to go for the next mission, I said, Oh, crap. I forgot to check my calendars off today. And everybody gave me like the sign of the cross and said, Ooh, don't, stay away from us, you'll jinx us. And I remember the guy doing that, that that very mission, they crashed and both of them died. And so, you know, superstition, I don't know.
How about entertainment, how did you entertain yourselves? Playing cards, officers' clubs, that type of thing, or did you have any shows come in?
We had -- I told you we were at the Fourth Division base camp, and because where we were it was relatively secure, so they had shows come through all the time. They -- we had, we did have an officers' club that we built ourselves. And generally that's where everybody gathered. We played cards. Probably did -- we did a lot of drinking, way too much drinking. The booze was cheap, beers were a dime, soda, mixed drinks, ten cents. Imagine a ten-cent drink. And a bunch of young kids that it wasn't legal for them to drink back in the States. I was one -- I was one of the older people in my unit. And I was probably 20 -- let's see, Vietnam, I was 24 when I came home. Some of the guys were 18, 19, flying the helicopters.
Wow.
They came straight out of flight school. But yeah, it -- and your club got shows based on how much money they brought in. Well, all the aviators had money and what have you so we were -- we got a lot of shows at our club. And they were Korean shows, you know, bands and stuff like that. But yeah.
Great. Did you get to do any traveling while you were over there to other countries or you were pretty much where you were at?
No, I -- generally when you were there they had an in-country R and R, which was a four, five days to go to Saigon or someplace like that. I was suppose to go the first time I got shot and so all my buddies went without me, I was in the hospital in Pleiku. And one of them came back with VD, so I figured I probably, I probably dodged the bullet on that one. But I did go to Taiwan because you got, you got an R -- a seven-day leave and an R and R, so I went to Taiwan for seven days, which is the island of Formosa. Some might know that. And then, and then I really, I was saving my R and R for Australia. I really wanted to go to Australia, but Australia, everybody wanted to go to Australia. So you didn't get to go to Australia until you'd been in-country ten months. Because you had to earn it, basically. And I got wounded the second time in my ninth month, and so I missed Australia.
And I want to know the most humorous thing that happened to you over there.
One -- the guy that use to fly my back seat all the -- when I was flying Cobras, there was a front seat, back seat. The front seat was the gunner and the back seat was following the pilot. And he fired the rockets, the front seat fired the guns, there were many guns in that. My back seat was named Danny Norman. Danny, Daniel, and he was from Alabama. He was from Gunnersville, Alabama. We called him Fat Grit because he was a little bit overweight and he was -- he was from Alabama, hence the Grit. So Fat Grit, one day we were at the base camp and it's our day down, we're not flying this day. And there's a big thunder and lightning storm that comes through, and on the perimeter, there was all kinds of barbed wire and booby traps and, and, and trip flares and all kinds of stuff. And we also had these barrels of what we called -- like a 55-gallon drum that was set in the ground at like a 45 degree angle, aiming out toward the enemy. And it was filled with like napalm, we called it foo gas. And on top of the napalm as an added deterrent I guess, there was -- they had packed a bunch of crystalized CS which is -- CS is a, a tear gas. I don't recall what it exactly CS stands for, but it's a pretty potent tear gas. Anyway, lightning struck one of the foo gas barrels, blew the foo gas out, the gas came up and wind blew the gas back on, on our compound. So everybody starts yelling "gas", we run and grab our gas masks, and we put our gas masks on. Well, Fat Grit can't find his gas mask. Fat Grit is -- he's digging through his, his foot locker, he's throwing stuff everywhere, panic on his face, you could tell his tears were streaming down, he can't breathe. He finally decided -- and he's looking around, we're all holding our gas masks because -- and we're laughing. He decides he can't find it. The best thing he can do is run, outrun it. Well, with a name like Fat Grit, you think he's going to outrun the gas? Oh, no. He runs down this -- the dirt road there about I don't know, 200 yards, turns -- decides he can't outrun it, turns around, comes running back. By now he's really huffing and puffing, sucking in the -- this tear gas, by the time he does find his gas mask, we get it all clear. That was the most humorous thing that -- I think that's it.
Did you keep a personal diary, other than your calendar? It seems like that was your --
No.
-- diary.
I did have a little notebook I carried, but I just really wrote my flight time down on it every day.
Okay. Do you recall the day your service ended?
In Vietnam?
Yeah. I would say in Vietnam.
Oh.
And then we'll go on to --
Yeah. Okay.
-- your career.
Yeah. I told you I was shot on the 8th of May, I was in the hospital in Phu Bai, which was right there by Hue City, until the 10th of May. So I was there two days and then I, I flew out on an Air Force transport to Japan, and then on, then on home to Valley Forge General Hospital in Pennsylvania, in King of Prussia, Pennsylvania.
And you didn't go back to Vietnam after that?
No, I didn't go back. I, I had -- I had, actually had volunteered to extend for six months and I -- and when you extended you got 30 days of free vacation, and you got to pick your unit of choice. And I had some friends that flew out of -- a gunship unit out of Cam Ranh Bay, and I had signed up to do that. Because I figured I'd get 30 days free leave, I'd go back and fly with a good unit that was in a relatively safe location. So by the time I was out of the hospital, the assignment officer was getting ready to get out, he says, Oh, I notice you got a six months' extension, do you still want to go back? I said, Nah, I don't think so.
Okay.
After one time I still thought I was bulletproof, after two wounds I said no. But you know, I'll go back when it stops, but I'm not volunteering to go back.
Okay. You did your time.
Yeah.
And after you got out of the service did you keep in contact or make any really close friends with anyone?
You know, not really. Some of my good -- some of the guys that I flew with over there and everything, I, I am in the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association. They meet every year on the 4th of July. I've been to probably two of their conventions. And the last one I went to, most of the guys I flew with over there, we got together for -- with a little group, but, but we really don't keep up day to day. Most them got out of the Army, I decided to stay in the Army.
For 29 years.
Yeah. I stayed for a lot longer, and a lot of I think what they find, I mean what they do at these reunions is they have a big dining house and they dress up like they're in the Army and all that stuff and I did that, you know. And so I don't -- I just -- I really -- I did it in the Army and they're still missing it I think.
Okay. Finally, later years and closings, what did you do as a career after the war? Obviously your career was the Army for 29 years, but then did you take a little break before you went on, because I know you have other employment.
No, what I did, and let me -- if I could just backtrack for one second. The reason I stayed in the Army, I told you I joined the Army for patriotism and, you know, my dad was in the service and my grandfather was in World War I, and all that kind of stuff. I said that's not why I stayed in the Army. I had planned to get out and use my VA to go back, finish my college degree and I was going to get a business degree and you know, be -- do something in business. But the reason I stayed in the Army is because of what I found in the Army. And what I found in the Army was family. I mean, such a tight-knit family that you just can't even imagine. What I found in Vietnam, unlike maybe a lot of other people, was I found guys that were willing to die for me, and I was willing to die for them. I mean, a voice on the radio called, I need help, we dropped whatever we were doing, and we'd do whatever it took to save them. Sometimes we didn't save them. And but they knew we do our best, and I knew if I was ever down they'd do their best to save me. So that's why I stayed. And that's the kind of comradery I found throughout the rest of the time in the Army, too. It was a wonderful, wonderful experience.
Um-hmm.
And then after the Army, my last job in the Army because I was a helicopter guy, my last job in the Army was I was the requirements person for the Apache Long Bow helicopter.
And you spent time in Washington, D.C.?
I spent -- well, yes, I did. I spent three years at the Pentagon on the Joint Staff from '90 to '93. That was right after I came out of the Army War College. While I was on the Joint Staff, I was promoted to full colonel. And that was one of the coolest job in the Army, it really was. I, I ran the Secretary for the Joint Requirements Oversight Council. The Joint Requirements Oversight Council was five four-star generals that decided on all the major weapons systems in the military, all services, all branches of the military. And they were the vice-chairmen or the vice-commandant of each of the naval -- or each of the services, so the vice of the Air Force, the vice of the Marine Corps, the vice of the Navy, the vice of the Army. And the Vice-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff was the chair of the -- that five four-star panel, and I did all my work for the five, for the Vice-Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So he was the number two guy in the whole military, so I was -- it probably made me one of the most powerful colonels in the Army, because my general was bigger than everybody else's general except, except General Powell, who was Colin Powell was the chairman when I was there. And so that was our -- I mean a really exciting, powerful, and I can tell you a million stories about cool things that went on there. But from there, I got selected to be the requirements person for the next generation Apache helicopter. I had commanded a helicopter -- Apache helicopter squadron as a lieutenant colonel, in fact the first one. In fact it was the unit I served with in Vietnam, which was really cool that I was a warrant officer in Vietnam in the 717th Cav, and later commanded that as a lieutenant colonel in the first Apache squadron. But the next generation of Apache was the Apache Long Bow. Glass cockpits, digital radar, all that kind of stuff. I did that from 1993 to when I retired in 1996. I took it through operational tests and in fact it was -- it had the most successful operational test ever to that date in the Department of Defense. And part of that is because I felt like I had been groomed for my entire career to do that job. So I had a lot of influence on that. But when I retired, because I was a requirements person and not an acquisition person, I didn't have any prohibitions for going to work with -- in industry. And so a number of the industry people wanted me to work for them. Helicopters were my love so I went to work for McDonnell Douglas in Mesa, Arizona, and that's who made the Apache Long Bow. And I worked for ten years in Boeing, retired in 2006 out of there, but I did Apaches for four years. Well, it started with McDonnell Douglas, Boeing bought them after I had been there two years. They called it a merger but it -- they were really not, they came in and fired a lot of executives, and the next day I was in charge of all the Apache marketing for the whole, world wide.
And what year did you finally retire from Boeing?
2006.
2006.
And now I just spend time with my grandchildren and family.
And you have how many grandchildren?
I have four grandchildren. I have two kids, boy and a girl, and they each have two children.
And your wife.
And my wife Marilyn.
Of how many years?
Forty-one years.
Forty-one years. That's great.
Yeah. We were married in 1970.
Did you get married before or after you went in the military?
After. After Vietnam.
After Vietnam.
After Vietnam. I met her after I came back from Vietnam.
Okay.
And I was an instructor pilot in Texas. And she's from Forth Worth, Texas.
Oh. Okay.
So I met her.
And where do you live now?
We live in Plano, Texas.
Plano, Texas.
Yeah.
Okay.
It's over near Dallas.
Okay. And I think our last question should be, did your military experience influence your thinking about war, or about the military in general, from past to present?
From my talk you know I love the military. My dad was in the military, I always was bummed that he -- I felt that he got a raw deal. He, he didn't make full colonel, but he didn't have a college degree, so I understood why. But at the same time, he was a really, really hard worker. And he didn't make it. And so one of my goals was to make full colonel. And part of that was for my dad. And mostly for me, but partly for him. But that wasn't my initial goal, but that was after I got in. I think probably the military, it, it, it's its own system. It has its own -- I mean a military base is a fully self-contained city. It has its own fire department, its own police department, its own schools, its own housing, all of the things that you see in civilian life. Its own court system. And I know you're a court reporter, but I think the military system of justice is in fact fairer and better than the civilian court system. There's less politics involved. And one of the things, I was commandeered a lot of times at different levels in the military, and as such I was the non-judicial punishment. I was, I was the prosecuting attorney, the defense attorney, the judge. I had to do it all at that level. And then if it bumped, I was a jury member frequently, or something like that. But it was a very fair system, I think.
Um-hmm.
And in many ways better. It -- one of the things I think is better is that you decide guilt or innocence first and then you go into an extenuation mitigation for the -- for the punishment phase. For example, in civilian court, John Hinkley, for example, not guilty of shooting President Reagan by reason of insanity. Well, in the military, he would have been found guilty, but then he would have not have gone to jail because he's insane, he would have gone to a hospital. But he was always guilty if he got out. In civilian life he could be turned back on the street as not guilty.
Um-hmm.
It's ludicrous that's he's not guilty, he is guilty.
Okay.
So the military's a great place.
I think that concludes our interview, Bob.
Yeah.
Unless there's anything you'd like to add.
I don't think so.
And I want to thank you for your military service, and serving in Vietnam, and it was a pleasure doing this interview with you.
Well, thanks. I'm glad you did it. I really am proud of you for doing this.
Thanks. Okay.
Yeah. Great.
Great. (End of interview)