Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with William H. Brigham was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling.
Good afternoon. Today is August 28th of 2012. My name is William Mason. I'm conducting an oral history interview at the Guinn Courts Building, 204 South Buffalo in Cleburne in Johnson County. The Court Reporter today is Tracie Miller. Our veteran is William Brigham, and his birthdate is August 19th of 1928.
That's correct.
And you served in the United States Navy; is that correct?
That is correct.
And your dates of service are 1945 to 1947.
Yes.
Okay. Let's see if there's any other preliminary part of that. Just for the spelling, it's -- your last name is B-R-I-G-H-A-M.
That is correct.
Okay. Judge Brigham, where were you born, sir?
Murphy, Texas.
Murphy, Texas.
Grew up on a cotton farm.
In Murphy. Working cotton farm?
Yes. My father was a tenant farmer.
And what were your parents' names?
Thomas W. Brigham and Eunice Mae Brigham.
And did you have any brothers or sisters?
Yes. I had a brother named Gene Fields Brigham, US Navy. Had another brother named Jex Moulden Brigham, United States Air Force.
And were they older or younger?
Older.
Both older than you.
Yes. Had two sisters, one older and one younger.
Oh, gosh. So you had five in your family, five children.
Five children.
That probably helped around the cotton field, I bet.
Unfortunately, yes.
And did you grow up in Murphy --
Yes, yes.
-- did you remain there throughout your high school?
No. Well, we lived there but I graduated high school in Plano.
Oh, Plano. Sure. Were your -- was your father or mother in military?
No, neither.
And your siblings, two of your brothers were also Navy?
Yes. One was Navy, one was Air Force.
Air Force. Were you drafted or did you enlist?
Involuntary enlistment.
Okay. Where were you living at that time, sir?
In Murphy.
Why did you join? It was involuntary, you were conscripted-type draft --
No, no.
You volunteered?
I volunteered.
Okay.
And I wanted -- just wanted to serve in the Navy, period.
And had you ever considered any other branch?
No.
Why -- why did you choose Navy?
Because my older brother had chosen it.
Was he already in the service?
Yes.
Do you recall your first days in the Navy?
I remember -- Yes, I do, you know.
What -- what do you recall about your enlistment and your first --
I was enlisted in Dallas at a building over there that my son was sworn in last week.
Oh, gosh.
Yes. And we shipped out on a troop train from there to San Diego.
Okay. So you left Dallas by train to San Diego. You went across the southwest.
Yes. Yeah.
You recall those stops or the train cars or anything?
I remember a Chillicothe and the conductor, the way he said the word "Chillicothe".
Did you have some -- a little anxiety about what you were about to go into or did you pretty much understand?
Not really. Not really. I just wanted to serve.
And when you got to San Diego, what -- what happened then?
Well, went through boot camp.
How long was boot camp?
You're testing my memory. I think probably six weeks to two months.
Uh-huh. Do you recall those dates about when it was that you --
In 1945.
What time of year was it?
It was in the fall.
The fall of '45. And from San Diego where were you sent by the Navy?
I was sent up to Shoemaker, California.
And what part of the state is that?
That's up sort of past San Francisco.
North of San Francisco?
Yeah.
What were your duties there?
Just a scrub. You know, a young country kid right off the cotton farm in Murphy, Texas, what more can you offer than being a scrub?
Being a scrub. Did you make some close friendships in your group?
I only had -- met one guy that I remember in Shoemaker because I received absolutely not a -- one letter from mail from home --
Oh, no.
And then before I shipped out of Shoemaker this guy came to me and says, "What's you're name, Mister?", and I told him. He says, "That's my name, too. I've been getting all of your mail." He had the same name as -- as I do, exactly, William H. Brigham, and he was somewhere from up in -- near Buffalo, New York.
Was it the same spelling?
Exactly the same.
Oh, my gosh.
And he kept -- he said, "I kept wondering why I was getting all of this mail from Texas."
So who had written you, your mother or your dad or brothers?
Yeah, yeah. People that I knew. My brothers, I'm sure, hadn't written. They didn't write a line. But my mom and my sister would write a lot of letters.
After your time in northern California, where were you assigned, where did you go?
Honolulu, Hawaii and Oahu.
And how did you get from Honolulu to -- or from California to Honolulu?
By the slowest ship in the Navy.
Do you recall the type of ship that they transported --
It was just a carrier, you know, carrying troops.
And what was the -- the Navy base there at Hawaii? Did it have a name?
Aiea.
Aiea?
Ai -- Aiea.
Aiea.
Yeah. It's the same place as Hickam Field --
Hickam Field.
Yeah.
And how were you housed there?
Wow. I remember we were in barracks, and they were not bad, either.
Wasn't too bad housing?
No.
And what were your duties at -- in Hawaii --
Just a scrub, seaman.
Same thing?
Yeah.
Were you assigned to a ship?
Not there but later.
Later you were?
Yeah. I was shipped out of there by a ship to the Marshall Islands.
Marshall Islands?
Yes.
How long were you in Hawaii before you shipped out?
Probably six weeks.
Six weeks in Hawaii --
Probably at most.
And were your -- your time there, your days and weekends, were they pretty much scheduled? Did you have any free time in Hawaii?
Yes, you had free time. And I remember it rained every afternoon at 3:00.
Oh, gosh.
But the weather was perfect and they were recovering from the war real good at that time. And I remember we had to fill bomb holes on Hickham where the Japanese had hit us.
Did you see quite a bit of damage that was -- still remained? That had been, I guess, five years -- four years earlier.
Yeah. Oh, yeah, it was still -- you know, still trying to recover.
Do you recall visiting any of the ships or the Arizona?
No, I never did go on board the Arizona. I just didn't want to do it.
Sure. And then your trip to the Marshall Islands, another troop transport --
Yes.
-- ship? Where was your brother at this time?
He was in Charlotte, South Carolina, the one that was in the Navy.
Yes, that's what I was asking.
Yes.
What's his name?
I remember he -- In those days, you know, people could hitchhike, and military men could hitchhike, and sailors could really get across the country quick in that white uniform. And he had hitchhiked. And when I was in San Diego I was a yeoman and assigned to take care of all the records of our company. And one day I was busy at work with my head down in the books and I heard somebody yell real loud, "Attention, sailor", and I looked up and it was my brother.
Oh, gosh.
Had hitchhiked all the way across.
To visit you, to see you. He's checking on your welfare. He must have had some days off.
Yeah, we did.
What was your brother's name, Dan?
Yeah, Gene Fields, Gene Fields Brigham.
And he had -- he had entered the service earlier voluntarily?
Yeah, yeah. They didn't draft any of our -- any member of our family, we all went.
Everybody went. And that was common, everybody wanted to go and fight.
Yeah.
What is kind of a civilian description of a yeoman, what are your duties?
Clerical.
Clerical. For a -- you have squadrons or units?
We had 159 men in our unit that we had to take care of, Company 45-532 was the number.
A company. And that's -- that was the number for the company?
Yeah.
What was those company numbers, 45- --
45-532.
And how did you get in that position of yeoman for that -- for that company?
They said, "Who can type?" and I held up my hand and they said, "You are it".
How did you learn typing? Where had you learned --
In high school. I was the fastest one in our high school.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah, 95 words per minute on the old Royal typewriter.
Wow. Wow. Those are the old hard ones to push down on.
Yeah, yeah.
Do you still type some? Can you get on a keyboard?
No, no.
No. And you remained as yeoman for the -- for the company throughout to Marshall Islands?
No, no, throughout boot camp.
Oh, boot camp. And at the Marshall Islands did you know -- Prior to that did you know what your assignment was going to be or was that still kind of secret at --
It's wide open for the Navy's decision.
Okay.
That's -- that's above my paygrade, way above.
You did not know when they were going to move you or what your assignment would be?
No. And one of the jobs that I had over there I recall real well is that we went to the various islands to pay the natives, to pay their monthly stipends, and we did that just routinely.
To pass out payment to the natives?
It was just clerical work that I did.
Uh-huh. Why was the US paying the natives, do you recall?
Again, that's above my paygrade. I don't know why. But for work and taking care of the islands that they lived on, I'm sure. I say I'm sure, I think that's correct.
Do you recall the monetary unit, what type of pay it was? But it was something of their -- of their money --
Yeah. I remember they were always very gracious and welcomed us aboard their islands each and every time we went there. And I remember them climbing the coconut trees and giving us coconuts and being happy to see us.
How long were you at Marshall Islands base?
Probably a year. Probably a year.
A year? It was a long assignment.
Yeah.
And what was the US Navy trying to accomplish in 1945 in that area of the Pacific?
To be sure that Japs didn't come back again.
Uh-huh. Were there still some active areas in the remote parts?
Oh, yeah, sure.
Uh-huh. And how were you housed there, what type of --
In barracks.
In barracks?
Uh-huh. And we had one old boy from South Carolina -- and my brother didn't know him at all -- but he was the proverbial South Carolianian. And the way he turned the lights off, he'd pick up his shoe and throw it at the bulb until he knocked it out.
Oh, gosh.
And I never knew how many he knocked out but it was many.
That's how he took the light out. And --
And he just insisted he had the right to turn the light off every night.
I'm sure that kind of upset others, did it not?
I don't know whether it did or not, we just certainly didn't want to get accused of destroying public -- government property.
Government property. Any other particular memory of being in those barracks, or when you had -- When you had free days to do things do you recall anything --
I remember one night -- Boy, that's going back -- Surely you got a better question than that.
Certainly. Your time there, you would go from village to village to pass out money for the natives.
And from island to island.
Island to island.
Yeah. We didn't have many natives on Kwajalein at that time.
Is it Kwajalein?
Yeah.
Do you recall how that was spelled?
K-W-H-A-J-A-L-E-I-N.
And was it a home base for the Marshalls?
It was the -- I remember it was a landing strip there.
Oh, uh-huh. About how many Navy were assigned there when you were there?
A whole bunch. I don't remember.
But you would travel from island to island to deliver pay to the natives that had been prearranged, for whatever purpose.
Yeah.
And what type of boats moved you from island to island?
LCTs.
LCT. What is that, light support transport or --
Yes, yes.
-- light -- And would you travel in a large contingent or just a few men, or how would --
It would depend. Sometimes we'd have two or three boats going, and then sometimes we would be by ourselves.
Did you -- were you armed?
Of course.
And were others -- Everybody was still on alert.
The whole company.
And you -- any experiences with the natives that stick into your mind any -- either kind words or cross words?
Never a cross word at all.
They seemed very appreciative.
But I was shocked. I remember as a young 17-year-old kid how the women dressed. And, you know, they had nothing on from above the grass skirts, and I just couldn't believe I was seeing that, you know. They didn't have that in Murphy, Texas.
It was quite an adjustment.
It was for me.
And following your year there, what did the Navy -- where did they send you next?
Aboard the USS Narragansett.
The Narragansett. And what type of ship was that?
A fleet tug.
A fleet tug.
Yeah.
Where did the Narragansett -- where did you have to go to?
Different -- you just never knew where you were going to go.
So from --
I remember we ended up back in Algiers in Louisiana, but not aboard the Narragansett. It was aboard another ship that we were decommissioning at that time.
Oh. Did you come back through Hawaii when you returned to the States?
Let's see, we flew into -- we flew in from Kwajalein, I believe, to Oakland, California.
You got to fly?
Yes, on a C-54.
Wow.
And it was -- I remember coming in, seeing all the lights and we were excited to see them. And something -- the airplane was not loaded properly and they had us all -- suddenly all the enlisted men to run forward so we could balance the airplane -- BY
Oh, gosh.
-- you know, and we -- he put it down --
Wow.
-- and we bounced around, and it was a pretty good experience.
And that flight was from -- from the Marshall Islands?
Yes.
Direct?
Yes. The best of my recollection.
It was a long airplane ride.
It was a long haul.
And did you think that your -- your active duty service was over, or you knew you were going to remain in and be assigned --
No, I knew that -- I knew I had more time to do. And the flight before that, we were scheduled to leave Kwajalein on Boeing -- on the C-54, and there was a group of 18 officers came through from Guam on their way home. And they came through and all of us that were enlisted men got bumped off of that plane and had to stay for another few -- probably month, maybe. And we were disappointed that we had to stay there on Kwajalein for that extra month. But the airplane went down in Johnson Island and they never found it.
Oh, my gosh.
Yeah. Tragic deal.
So you basically got bumped off the flight by officers?
Yes.
And then that plane was lost.
Yes, lost somewhere.
And how did you learn that information? How many days --
Oh, no, they told us about it and --
Later?
-- we just said, I guess, "Thank God. But for the grace of God."
Yes. And from -- from the continental US how did you get over to Louisiana? Another troop transport?
You know, I don't recall right now. That's too many years ago. Let's see, I can probably recall that some way.
That was Oakland, you came into -- you flew into Oakland?
Yes, I come to Oakland. And they shipped me to a hospital in Corpus Christi and from there I ended up -- from the hospital in Corpus Christi down in Algiers.
Did you have any illness or any type of medical problem? It was just common?
No. Just -- I think it was a matter of being sure that there -- we weren't bringing some kind of disease back to the United States.
And then at New Orleans you were assigned. Did -- did the men that you were with, did you remain with them from Marshall Islands to the US?
No, no.
So you would be assigned a new group?
It was a different group every time.
Or a company?
Yeah. I remember aboard ship some of the guys that -- they were a whole lot saltier than me and they could drink booze like it was going out of style and they'd go ashore. And I remember one guy one night had a bottle of some kind of booze in his hand and he turned it up and chugalugged the whole thing, just right straight down, and then fell over, plop, right there in Algiers in front of a hotel. We picked him up and some way got him back to ship, and he wasn't arrested or anything but it was just, you know, sailors taking care of your buddies.
Yes. I guess kind of a new experience for a --
It was for me.
-- for a boy from Murphy, Texas.
Never had a drink of whiskey in my life, you know.
Wow. And what -- what were your duties on the new -- on the new ship at New Orleans?
Grunt.
Did you -- And the ship itself, was it assigned and did you travel to other parts of the world?
No. We were trying to get it decommissioned but we were trying to clean it up.
Oh, I see. And so the -- so the Navy was either going destroy it, sink it, or sell it for scrap?
Whatever.
Whatever they were going to do.
Whatever the Navy was going to do. Again, you know, your paygrade doesn't reach too far.
Do you recall what you were being paid, the amount, or how frequently you were paid?
I got $64 per month. Yeah, I believe that's correct, $64 per month for the entire time that I was there in the Navy.
And was it a monthly payment one time once a month?
Yes. Yeah.
And did you have -- were you required to pay it -- Did you have expenses that the military would not cover that you had to --
No.
-- or that was your money?
No.
You had uniforms?
You had -- they furnished the uniforms, they furnished the barracks, they furnished the ships, they furnished everything, you know, you just -- Excuse me.
What did do you with your money? How did you -- Did you have banking or did you send it home?
I mailed it home.
Would you mail all of it or keep some of it?
Just almost every bit of it every month. I tried to send as much as I could every month. I may keep $5 a month or $10 a month at most, but I'd mail it all home.
Did you have any need, really, to make purchases or not?
No.
And when you sent it home was it for your parents to use however they wanted or were they saving it for you?
No, it was for them for their use.
Uh-huh. And who was still at home during that time?
My mother and father and two sisters.
Your younger sisters?
Uh-huh.
Were they employed outside the home or did they work with your mom and dad, your two sisters?
No, they weren't employed outside -- My sisters were not employed outside the home.
And following your -- your time there in Louisiana, what -- what happened next?
I went back to Corpus Christi, and when it was time for me to be discharged I was discharged in Corpus Christi from the Navy.
Right. And was it -- was it kind of a downsizing or had you completed your term?
No, completed my time.
Was your brother still active and in the Navy, or was he out by then?
My next older brother was still active in the Air Force, and I believe my brother in the Navy had already fulfilled his term, too.
And so about 1947, would that be --
Uh-huh.
-- the time that you were actually -- received your discharge?
Yes. And of all the plaques and honors that I've had down through the years, my favorite one is my Honorable Discharge.
Why do you say that? You were ready to get out?
No, I'm just proud of my service.
Proud of your service --
I really was. Still am.
And it's something we should all be thankful for -- for your -- your service to the country. Things -- Do you recall kind of the political climate, were people still concerned about Japanese?
I don't think -- By the time I got out I think it was pretty well eased off pretty good. But then in the beginning there was significant concern, you know, in the beginning.
And when you left California to Marshall Islands you didn't know if you would see combat or not?
I had no idea. You just a green kid off the farm and, you know, doing what you thought was right.
Did you communicate with your mom and dad by letter?
Sure.
And you received letters from them, news from home.
Yeah. Yeah. My -- my best newsmaker was my older sister. She could write the greatest letters in the world and just told, you know, it was just like a television show when I'd read her letter. She told all the gossip that there was in Murphy, Texas.
Did you miss home sometimes?
Yes.
And --
Yes, of course you do.
And did your mom and dad get along okay with the farming?
Yes.
The farming --
My dad was probably the hardest working man I've ever known in my life.
Did your dad have any military service?
No.
None.
He was probably as much of a pacifist as you've ever seen in your life.
Oh, really.
Yeah.
I know just prior to the war there was quite a big -- quite a lot of support for not becoming involved in the European war.
Yes, yes.
Do you recall that political --
I recall that political time. And I remember we had dear friends in a farm about, oh, maybe a mile away from us. I can -- Mrs. Flossie Kilpatrick and her husband. And I remember them well, just said, "God won't let it happen."
Oh.
Yeah. And she was -- and I remember she was talking about Hitler at the time.
That she just felt like he would never -- never make it to the United States?
Yeah, she said it won't happen. Man, you're testing my memory today.
Well, it's all very, very interesting to me and I'm sure to many others, because it's a time period that none of us understood. Do you recall the rationing? Did you -- were you --
Yes.
Your parents were required to --
Yes. We had rationing and you could have just so much sugar, you could have no tires. All the metal, you know, had to be saved. And let's see, you grew most of your food.
What did they do on fuel, like fuel, oil or gasoline and things like that?
Yeah, I can remember the old pumps, you know, that you did that way (indicating) to pump it out and, boy, it was very carefully monitored when you were trying to fill up your cars in those days.
Did they have any kind of stamps or any kind of booklets on fuel?
Yes. Yeah, there was -- Thanks for the memories. I had forgotten it. But, yeah.
So you -- you were allotted a certain amount monthly or yearly?
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I think by your questioning that you know what the answers should be and I don't.
Well, I -- my -- my understanding is that there were stamps that you would turn in for fuel and you only had a certain allotment, but I don't know the time frame. I would guess that the farmers were permitted a little more fuel to conduct --
I think that's probably right but, again, I don't recall it that well. I remember the little old bitty blue stamps, little bitty -- they were little bitty stamps about -- not the size of the postage stamps today but they were small.
Small. Where did you go -- When you went to enlist kind of way back at the beginning, I guess, where did you actually go to sign up?
Dallas.
So you drove just -- your dad drive you in or how did you get there, or do you remember? You weren't too far from Dallas, were you?
No, we were 18 miles.
Eighteen miles. And did you have -- did you stand in line and have a physical examine and things like that?
Yeah, I had all of that.
Did you go with friends, anyone else in your school or your area?
No, no. Went by myself.
And then, I guess, when accepted or when -- when they agreed to permit your enlistment, you left out of -- did you appear again at the Dallas office and --
If I can tell it, it's -- it's important to me. Came back and got ready to leave and my father told me -- Called me Dugan, that was my nickname.
Called you Dugan?
Dugan. Always did. Told me, said, "Dugan, if you don't grow up to be a good man my life will have been in vain."
So he -- he sincerely hoped for your success.
Sure.
And you -- you felt that responsibility, I assume.
Still do.
And still do. Your -- your father sounds like a great man.
He really was a good man.
Times were hard in the '30s, were they not? Lot of people living on streets and on railroads, and families got scattered, I suppose.
We lived close to a railroad and I remember people coming by and ask momma for a handout, she always had one.
She would feed them, she'd try to?
Oh, sure.
Did you keep any of your friendships from your service days? Did you stay in touch with them?
Fletcher -- Fletcher Jennings, Van Meter, Iowa.
And where did you meet him? When --
In boot camp.
In boot camp at San Diego?
Yeah. Yeah.
Did -- did he go with you to Oakland and to -- well, to San Francisco and then to --
No, no. No, I have no idea where Fletcher went but we contacted each other after we both got out of the Navy years later. And he was president of a savings and loan company in Van Meter, Iowa.
And --
Good man.
But he was somebody you met in your term in boot camp, whatever it may be, for six weeks.
Uh-huh.
And -- but you became close, kind of felt like country boys, I guess, in the Navy?
He was more sophisticated than me, to say the least. But he was a good man, hard worker.
Well, I'm sure you made your dad proud. You returned from -- from the -- your time in the Navy and what did you go into after that? What was your plan and what did you do following your Honorable Discharge?
I went to work for Southwestern Bell Telephone Company in Dallas as a cable splicer's helper. And we -- In Oakcliff. We cut into all the cable, and then one day they had a big storm in Waco, Texas, and they sent me down there. And they -- they sent me down to repair a cable at Baylor University. And I got down there and I thought, "These are the prettiest girls I've ever seen in my life. I need an education. And that's why I went to Baylor University, pure and simple.
So you -- you worked for the phone company, and that was probably a real busy time period laying phone lines.
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, two years of it.
Because many communities had no electricity, I'm sure, in those years immediately following the war.
Well, I remember I was assigned to the Oakcliff division and worked out there.
Why did you choose not to remain on the farm after the war?
I never thought about that.
But so after your time with the phone company at Waco you stayed -- just stayed there, did you, and attend school?
I enrolled in Baylor, went two years undergrad and used my military service to add another year, and then from there went into law school.
Just right there at Baylor?
Yeah.
Do you remember the dean at that time?
Sure.
Who was that?
Abner McCall.
Oh, gosh. Yes. Actually, I think I met Dean McCall -- I was trying to get in Baylor, got in -- in San Antonio at Saint Mary's, but still was trying to get in Baylor and spoke with Abner McCall. And I remember him saying just -- "Well, you're already enrolled there, you've already started classes, come back after your first year." He was a nice follow.
Oh, man, yeah. Super, super, super. He was an ex-FBI agent at that time, too.
Now following your law school, when did you complete law school? Do you recall the year?
May the 28th of 1954.
You completed and received your law degree. Did you study for the State bar?
Yep -- No, no. Went into the FBI.
Oh, okay.
Went straight -- It was on May the 28th and then on the next day, May the 29th, I was on the way to Washington DC with my telegram from Mr. J. Edgar Hoover in my little '51 Chevrolet.
Oh, my gosh. And had you met a -- met a girl at all at Baylor?
Yes.
Is that where you met your wife?
Yes.
And was she a student there?
Yes.
And so you were married at the end of law school or not?
Yes -- No.
So she traveled with you to Washington?
Oh, yeah. Sure.
When did you become -- when did you become interested in the FBI?
When I was a child on the farm.
What had you heard about the FBI?
From Wheaties box tops.
Oh, gosh.
You know, and I was a Junior G-Man.
Yes. So that had been your dream.
Yeah.
And I guess the FBI favored people with law degrees?
It was required. Either you were a CPA or a law degree at that time. I don't know what it is today but that's what it was then.
I think it's close to still those requirements, or a foreign language, those type of things.
Okay.
But -- so did you go through some type of a boot camp with the FBI in Virginia?
Yes. In Quantico.
Quantico. How long was that?
Probably two months.
And then following that --
Two or three months, something like that.
I guess you graduated from the training?
Graduated number one in my class that year.
A Texas boy.
Yep, I'm proud of it.
Sure. Sure. How many in the group? Do you recall how many went through training?
Yeah, I recall exactly. Out of -- they gave us this number -- whether it's correct or not I can't vouch for it -- but they said out of 6,336 U 37s are -- were selected. So I felt pretty good about that and then that number stuck with me.
Thirty-seven?
Yeah.
And did you live in barracks during the training and your wife off -- kind of off campus?
No. My wife did not go with me then. She stayed in Texas until I finished and was assigned to my first office.
What is your wife's name?
Mary Lucille.
And Mary Lou, did she stay with her parents or stay in Waco?
Stayed in Waco with a -- You know, we had a daughter at that time.
Oh, gosh. And so you returned following your training, or did you get an assignment and she moved?
I know I was assigned Indianapolis my first office.
Indianapolis?
Uh-huh.
What was the problem in Indianapolis that the FBI wanted to you to monitor or work on?
I was just a, you know, a rookie special agent. Got there the first day, they had a running gun battle right down on the circle.
Oh, my gosh.
This crazy woman had pulled an armed robbery of the American National Bank there.
A woman had?
Yeah.
Wow. So you were called into action, I guess?
Yeah, we were there. Had to solve the problem. And did.
Were you able to capture the lady?
Yeah.
And what bank did you --
American National Bank.
American National Bank.
Yep.
That was pretty -- a probably impressive thing to happen on your first assignment.
It wakes you up, you know,
How long were you in Indianapolis?
One year.
The FBI is kind of like the Navy, they move you?
Yeah.
Where did -- where did you go?
Went to New York City.
Oh, gosh. What -- did you have any particular duties other than the general duties of all the agents?
I was assigned in New York to the Communist Party International and I was -- did that for about a year-and-a-half to two years, then I was assigned to the bank robbery squad. And we'd have one or two bank robberies every day.
Oh, gosh. Oh, gosh. So you were busy.
There was plenty of work to go around.
Well, were those bank robberies and those type of assignments -- specifically, I guess, the bank robberies -- did you find yourself, like, in the Indianapolis circumstance where -- where you were active -- involved in that or chasing the bad guy?
Sure. That's what you do as a special agent, you know, and that's your job, you chase the bad guys and that's it, we did.
Did you -- I guess you had a partner that you worked with?
Yes.
And you recall -- did you have one or a number of partners?
The first one I had was an old timey police officer out of Oklahoma and he taught me the ropes.
Kind of a senior man, I guess?
Boy, was he ever. Salty old fellow but a good agent.
And the Communists, of course, in the mid '50s, that was a hot political issue.
Yes, sir.
And did you get involved in any of the Congressional things?
No, no.
None of those things?
We were street people.
You just reported back your findings?
We were street people. We had our own bugs and our own --
Had particular people that you were assigned to --
I had one assigned name Colonel Ivan Bubchekob from the Soviet Union.
Oh, wow.
Where he went I went.
Did he know that you were assigned to him or did they just suspect that they were being followed?
They -- they had to know somebody was on them because it was a reciprocating deal. We had agents in Moscow, you know, and they followed them, the KGB, and we followed their folks.
Was it -- was it understood that they were probably reporting back to their superiors in Moscow --
Of course. Sure.
-- their observances and their -- their things?
My man, he loved pizza, he loved to go to Long Island. He went to a pottery studio in mid Manhattan one day and I enjoyed going there and watching the young potters, and I thought if I ever get a chance to do that I'm going to do it some day and I've done that.
Have you really? Just working with the clay?
Yep. Yep. Still do. I have a state-of-the-art studio at my home now.
Even now?
Yeah. And he went from New York -- Let's see. What's that -- Anyhow, he flew out of New York. Starts with an "L".
LaGuardia.
What?
LaGuardia.
LaGuardia --
LaGuardia.
-- Field?
Yes.
He was a mayor, I think.
Went out of there and then went to Michigan, Saginaw. And flew from Saginaw to South Bend, went in to the University of South -- University of Notre Dame. The library -- told the lady he was a foreign exchange student and wanted to know if he can see a particular master's thesis that was done at Notre Dame. "Oh, sure." Wanted to know if he can buy it as a foreign exchange student, she says, "Oh, sure". The only problem was it had all of the strategic military installations in the Chicago/Gary/South Bend area.
Oh, my gosh.
He bought it.
Oh, my gosh.
He didn't get back to Russia, though. Putin had him declared persona non grata and kicked out.
Did you -- you followed him on that route?
Yeah, sure.
And did you know or did you expect that he was headed that way or did you just have to follow him?
You just, you know, wherever he goes you go. And you switch off -- on and off, have agent -- different agents switching.
Uh-huh. So you went into Indianapolis where you had first been as an agent?
No, that's not in Indianapolis.
Oh, South Bend?
Yeah, South Bend.
Right. But you came through following the Russian general?
Yeah. In the KGB. He wasn't a general, he was a KGB officer.
Oh, he was a KGB officer?
Yeah, sure.
Okay.
That was their military attaches. Ours were the same.
And was he a -- did he -- Was he a man that appeared to be a young man or was he middle-aged, or do you recall?
Yeah I do recall. He was about 34, 35, could walk you till you fall over dead. And we just kept on keeping on.
Yes. You followed your responsibilities. So he was expelled from the country and the things he purchased were taken from him, he didn't pass those along?
Don't go into that.
Yes, sir. I understand. Well any other particular experiences that you want to share with us, either your service in the Navy or your -- your work in the FBI? I'm sure even as a former active member in the FBI do you have some secrecy responsibility?
I'm no longer associated with the FBI. It's a great organization, I'm proud of my time there.
Following --
And I -- I -- still I try to help as many young men and women as I can to get membership in the bureau.
Yes. It's still a very well -- I think well-respected organization.
And I think I've got seven of them in there right now.
You have?
Yeah.
Gosh, that's great. When did you --
You asked me a question a while ago and I was not up to snuff at the time to answer it properly about "any particular night that you remember", and yes, it is, it was in Hawaii. As a young kid and all the other sailors wanted to go, you know, to town and do whatever you do in Hawaii, and I knew that I didn't belong there so I stayed at the barracks. Never will forget it, that night, as long as I live. Great big moon up there, bigger than you've ever seen in your life. And you talk about lonesome, boy, that was lonesome dove time. It was -- I can remember it. Fred, you've never been that lonesome in your life, man.
Did your -- your buddies kind of give you a hard time about not wanting to go, or they just leave you --
Oh, I don't -- I don't remember that. But I remember we were a pretty cooperative group. We worked together. But I couldn't answer that question before because I hadn't thought of it in a long time. MRS. MASON: It's still painful?
Huh? MRS. MASON: It's still painful?
It was.
Kind of a lonely, lonely feeling, I guess. Did your -- your brother in the Navy, your brother in the Air Force, did they remain in or they all served their time and --
My Navy brother, Gene Fields, finished his time and went into the trucking business in California, died a multi-millionaire. My Air Force brother finally retired and after many years, and he died at age 85.
Oh, gosh. So he was career Air Force?
Oh, yeah, yeah. That's all he ever wanted to do was fly an airplane.
And did he get to fly?
All the time, even after he retired he'd still go back and fly.
Where did he live following retirement?
In California.
Stayed in California?
Uh-huh.
And your two sisters, how did they go on in their --
I have two sisters, they're still living.
And did they work outside the home or they always --
My older sister had a job that she retired from a number of years ago, and her husband was Navy.
Uh-huh.
And my younger sister, she and her husband, they -- they pretty old now.
They live here in the area?
They live up near Plano or Richardson, somewhere in that area.
So they're still in the area where you really started, near Murphy and the cotton -- cotton farm.
The cotton farm right now is multi-million dollar homes.
Oh, gosh. North of Dallas or Plano?
Yeah, east of Plano out there in the boondocks. It's just -- I don't even go back anymore.
Well, those -- that was good black land --
Oh, boy, is it ever.
-- for farming. Did you, during your time in the Navy, did you keep a diary at all or keep any records?
No. I can tell more lies that way. But a diary, you're responsible.
And how many years in the FBI?
Four.
And following that what was your career?
As -- I was -- came back, took my bar, and I'd been a lawyer for two days, Bill -- and it would be absolutely reversible error right now -- but the judge appointed me in a capital murder case in Waco, Texas. It was on live television. It was the second case that was ever done live on television. Harry Washman (phonics) was the first one, mine was the second one. In those days you got paid $25 to represent a capital murder defendant, total.
Wow. That was the full amount you would get?
That was it. That was it. So Judge called me, said, "Brigham, I'm appointing you to represent this boy that killed that old man out there at the Piggly Wiggly store." And I said, "Judge, I don't know anything about that." He said, "You'll learn." Put yourself in those shoes, Bill.
Wow. Some sleepless nights.
Well, any anyhow.
Do you recall his name, your client's name?
Sure. John Junior James.
John Junior James.
He was a descendent of Frank and Jesse. He said. I don't know whether that's true or not but, you know.
Appeared to be consistent with an outlaw.
Yeah. He and his brother, Lavon James, and their cousin, Esther Goodson (phonics,) were on a nationwide killing spree --
Oh, gosh.
-- and they did it and it was a brutal murder.
Of a farmer or a person who lived out in the country?
No, no, in Waco.
Oh, at a store?
Yeah, in a Piggly Wiggly store.
Uh-huh.
And they went in there to rob that store, they were yelling and cussing and this gentleman, who was a fine man whose name I don't recall right now, he says, "Why don't you boys just go ahead and rob your store and leave with all these women and children here. You don't need to do all of that cussing." Drilled him.
They shot him?
Cold-blooded murder.
For what he said?
Yeah. In those days -- It's different than it is today, in those days the test for qualifying as a juror was, "Do you believe in the penalty of death for the punishment of crime in a proper case? Answer 'Yes' or 'No'."
Uh-huh.
That was the test then.
That was it.
You know, bingo. It's nothing like that now.
No, no. It's a little more complicated.
But in those days...
What year -- what year did that trial -- or your representation take place?
In 1958.
1958?
Yeah.
Was there just one district court in McLennan?
No, there was three district courts but this was the 54th District Court.
Which held criminal.
There was the 19th, there was the 74th and the 54th in Waco.
Uh-huh.
And this judge was in the 54th District Court, a good judge and a good man.
What was his name?
Judge D.W. Bartlett.
Judge Bartlett.
Dizzy Bartlett.
And he was willing to put you on there as --
He just did. You know, the district judge called you in those days and you didn't say, "Well, no".
Well, he must have believed you were up to the task.
I don't know what he believed. But he just says, "You'll learn".
And was a trial held, a contested trial?
Yeah.
And the sentence?
Ninety-nine years.
Didn't get the death penalty?
Nope.
You did a good job -- JUDGE ANDERSON: Well --
-- on his behalf.
The District Attorney, who's a good man and still living, Tom Moore, Jr.
Tom Moore, Jr.
Later ran for Attorney General of Texas.
Yes. Uh-huh.
And he had a man who was named Burney Walker, now deceased. Burney was a fire-eating lawyer. And Burney was ready to get the trial on and he asked this lady, "Do you believe in the penalty of death for the punishment of crime in a proper case? Answer 'Yes' or 'No'." "Well, I don't know", and then he would hit her again with it and he was getting exasperated. Finally he said -- Judge dismissed her. The next person was up there, "Do you not believe in the penalty of death for the punishment of crime in a proper case, answer 'Yes' or 'No'." He said, "Yes, sir", meaning "I do not". And he says, "We'll take him." I said, "We'll take him."
Sure.
It was 11 to one verdict for the death penalty.
Wow. He was your -- your hold-out juror.
Yeah. He wouldn't budge.
You knew by his -- his initial --
Well, I picked up on that --
-- response.
-- and Burney didn't.
Uh-huh.
You see the significance of it?
Oh, yes. Yes. The answer was clear.
It was clear, unequivocal, "Yes, I do not".
And he maintained that belief.
Burney was going to prosecute him afterwards.
Oh, he was?
Yeah, and --
For some type of deceit?
I told him, I said, "Go back and you get Flois (phonics) to get the court reporter and go over that question. He answered you the question that you asked," and he did and that was the end of it.
Wow. Did he -- he missed the answer or he thought that --
He thought the man had qualified as being a strong person in favor of the death penalty.
He just -- he misinterpreted --
Yes.
-- what "yes" meant.
Yeah.
Oh, gosh.
Can you imagine that?
That's hard to believe.
That's manna, you know.
That is manna. And you got your $25.
It broke me.
Sir?
It broke me financially.
Did it?
Yeah. I had the -- Like I say, I didn't know anything about him but I got in the books and I found a provision in there -- and I don't know whether this is still the law or not -- but in those days you had to furnish the defendant with a certified copy of the jury panel three days in advance. Well, Judge Bartlett was notorious for going to sleep so I thought, well, I'll put Judge Bartlett to sleep with several different motions and then put that one in there that the defendant failed to receive --
Failed to receive his certified copy.
He woke up and he said -- He burns holes in his shirt all the time with his cigar.
Gosh.
He woke up and he said to the District Attorney, he says, "Is that right?" And Tom Moore, Jr., went through it and he said, "I guess that's right." Judge Bartlett says, "Hell, that's a good motion."
Wow.
And so we got the trial that was on -- being televised at that time delayed for six months.
Gosh. So they had to kind of start over?
Yeah. And so I still, during that six months, I worked on the -- on the case.
Prepared so you --
Yeah. He -- my man, I visited him in jail and he told me where he threw the gun. I told him, "You're lying to me. So if you want to quit lying to me, well, you tell me where the gun is. Well -- but don't bother me until you decide to tell me the truth." Anyhow he told me he had a wife in Walnut Ridge, Arkansas.
What town?
Walnut Ridge.
Walnut Ridge.
I went up there to Walnut Ridge, found his wife early one morning on a street that was just completely covered with trees, children playing up the street there. And I asked this elderly lady was what's-her-name was there, "Yes, she's here." Matilda. And she came to the door, invited me in, I told her what my business was. About that time the door swung wide open, a little girl and a little boy. And she says, "It's all right, honey, it's daddy's friend." And the little boy was grossly flop-eared child, just gross, way down here (indicating). And that little boy came over there and jumped in my lap and hugged me like -- you know. And I thought, "Hum". So at an appropriate time she walked in the courtroom after the jury had been there, and the little boy spotted his daddy and he went over there and he locked on and it took three deputies to pull that child away from his daddy. And so Burney Walker, he said, "You sorry so-and-so".
He thought you set that up?
Certainly. You know, a defendant's lawyer wouldn't do anything like that.
No, not trying to garner sympathy from the jury.
But I told Burney, I says, "Kill him now." Anyhow...
Well, that's -- that's an interesting story of success on your part as a new lawyer.
Just green luck, green luck.
What became of Mr. James?
Went to the penitentiary, went down there and he escaped.
Oh, he escaped?
Yeah, escaped, and took off running down through the deals and they got the dogs in after him. And he got tired of running so he quit and sit down under the shade tree and the dogs came and got him and they took him back.
Took him back.
I don't know whether he's still living now or not, that was a long time ago.
Well, that's a very interesting story. Glad to -- glad you thought of that to tell us.
Well...
Did you remain -- did you -- your entire practice in McLennan County or did you move to Tarrant?
No. Strange deals happened. You know, it broke me financially.
Uh-huh.
I mean --
Just because of the time that it tied you up?
Dead broke, $25 that you earned over a six-month period of time and you have a family to support.
In 1958.
Yeah. Well, I was sitting in my new office again, got a phone call and this guy from Dallas called me, wanted to know if he could come see me, I says sure. And he came in and he says, "I watched that trial on television." He says, "I like the way you operate." He says, "Would you represent my companies?" Cravens and Dargan, Allstate, State Farm, United Underwriters. And so I represented them for 18 years.
Oh, my gosh. What a blessing.
Yes. Oh, man, saved me.
The television -- television helped.
But Judge Bartlett had warned us about monkeyshining on television and we weren't about to do it.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, he didn't want any grandstanding.
Oh, it was straitlaced.
Now the television in the courtroom would have been a pretty new affair.
Oh, it was. Yeah, they -- you know, nowadays you can take a camera and just -- like this one right here, just cover the courtroom. In those days they had to build this tower on top of the McLennan County courthouse to get the signals up there.
Oh, for television.
And every time they had to set it up it cost them about $15,000. Well, they didn't like me too well after I got that first continuance.
Six months.
Yeah. Oh, they were angry. I didn't concern myself with that, though.
Well that turned out to be a -- a great thing for you on -- on -- picked up some -- some good clients.
Yeah. And I enjoyed representing them and did it for 18 years.
Did you stay in Waco?
Uh-huh. Yeah. Tried cases all over Central Texas down there.
Just traveled around wherever they were sued, I guess, or needed to defend one --
Workmen's comp was in its heyday in those days.
What was?
Worker's comp.
Oh, yes.
I used to defend those cases.
When did you go to the bench? When did you...
1981. County commissioner called me one day, he said, "Brigham, there's a job open. I've got 37 applications, I don't like any of them, I want you to apply." And I said, "Well, I'll have to talk to the District Attorney about it." And he says, "You do that and call me back in 15 minutes." So I talked to Tim and told him what had happened, took them about a half page application over to commissioner's court, he called an energy meeting and appointed me.
Wow. Well that's the way to get those jobs.
Well, yeah, it just -- I had never thought about sitting on the bench in my life. Not one ounce of thought had I given to that, not one. But I served in that court eight years, then I served on the 233rd District Court for eight years, and then on the Court of Appeals for five years.
Were you there with -- with Frank McDonald or was he --
No, Frank McDonald, Chief Justice of the 10th Court of Appeals.
Tenth Court of Appeals.
Yeah, in Waco.
Not -- not Fort Worth. Now do you have some connection to the -- the Branch Davidian --
One mile east.
Excuse me, one mile east?
Yeah.
Oh, gosh.
Yeah. I don't have any connection with them but they were --
They were nearby?
Yeah. My farm place is east of them one mile.
Wow. Do you recall those days?
Yeah, real well.
Did they -- they use your property for any purpose?
They wanted to, the FBI wanted to lease my barns so they could take pictures.
Uh-huh.
And they wanted to pay a $1,000 a day to do it and I thought, "Well, you'll get up on top of that barn and tear it up and then after a couple of days you'll leave me holding the bag", and so I didn't lease it to them.
Did not.
Fifty-six days later they were still there.
Yes.
So I could have -- I could have built a brand new barn.
You could have bought a new barn for a 1,000 a day.
But that old boy --
David Koresh.
Well, that's the name he took. He was just a Houston street thug, Vernon something. Learned how to quote the Bible and went up there and just created havoc. They came down there one time when I was down at my farm place, tried to recruit me.
Oh, is that right? Just door-to-door, kind of knocking on doors?
No. Drove up -- all the way up my road to my headquarters and I told them I wasn't interested. But they would go down to -- he'd take his whole crowd down to our local bar. It's called Trading House Creek Bar and Grill and spend $100 bills, everybody getting drunk.
Wow. Gosh.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, he was -- he was a fraud.
Yeah, and -- Total.
Total.
Total.
Caused the death of many people.
The way that got started was I had a dear friend named John Hogg, ex-captain for the Texas Rangers.
Texas Rangers.
He was the chief investigator for the Tarrant County District Attorney's office. I told him what I had -- I had observed one day. He says, "Keep watching that, Bill, and let me know." So I go back the next Sunday down there under my favorite shade tree and watching this little airplane circle, dropped this white package up there in this mesquite patch, and this guy got that package and I yelled at him. He took off running like a jack rabbit.
So you were close by. You were real close.
Oh, yeah yeah. You know, the whole deal happened. I don't know what's in the package, all I know is what I saw coming out of that little airplane.
And I guess you reported that back.
I told John Hogg about it. And from there it went downhill, or up hill, or whatever.
Yes. Well, that was an unfortunate ending to a --
Yeah, it was tragic.
It was terrible for many people.
Tragic.
Well, if -- can you think of anything that I have failed to ask that you think might be interesting?
You've had an excellent cross-examination. And I plead the Fifth Amendment from this point further.
From this point further. Well, I -- I -- I like to feel like you were one of my witnesses, I wasn't really cross-examining you. I think I've kind of covered all the suggested topics and I appreciate your -- your granting the interview and want to thank you for your service to the country.
Well, I just --
And in both the FBI with -- and also in the Navy.
I've been a very fortunate child off of a tenant farmer's cotton patch, I really have.
And I think your -- your dad would -- is smiling a big smile. I'm certain -- sure that he would be proud of your success. He -- he worked a hard life, it sounds like.
He was a lay minister. Boy, got a good memory.
What particular denomination was --
Methodist.
Methodist preacher. Well that's good. We're -- we're Methodist. We're -- we're -- I grew up as a Methodist in Dallas so I have kind of a soft spot.
Sure.
But thank you. I think we could probably conclude.
All right. Bill, you've been very gracious and in your questions and I thank you very much for it. I've enjoyed working with you, really.
Well, I think we probably have a good record of interesting things that, maybe, for many years to come people will --
Too much so.