Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with Wilbert C. Weigel was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. Spelling errors are indicated with [sic]; however, recurring errors in spelling within a single document have been marked the first time and not subsequently.
All right. Let's start with, what, December 7th, 1941. Okay. I was a 16-year-old kid, and I had a 21-year-old brother. And I'll never forget we had a chicken dinner, and the announcement came over with the radio. And I can remember my mother and dad's face. Anyway --
Was your brother at home with you at that time?
Yes. Yes. Yes. He was 21 years old. He just finished University of Chicago. He enlisted in the Navy. He became an ensign, and then he was over in the South Pacific. I don't know the areas. Anyway. And he came out a lieutenant commander in the Navy Reserve. He did very, very well. I was a PFC. And we used to kid. He had sleep with sheets, and I would sleep in the mud. But, anyway. Okay. I was a 16-year-old kid, and I -- I was 17 years old in '42. I graduated at June. I applied at University of Chicago, was accepted. And I had a year in, 1943, then I was drafted. At '43, okay, yes, I went to Camp Grant. And I don't remember if I was a civilian or if we were actually in service at that time, but we took an intelligence test. And I came up 161 or something, and that was -- anybody with 120 or something went -- became Army Specialized Training Program, ASTP. Okay. I had to go through basic training. They shipped me over from Camp Grant. We took a train to Fort Benning, Georgia. That was the infantry school. It was the first time I was ever outside of my house, sleeping in the mud and everything else. Anyway, that was the fall of 1943. I developed a cough, and I went on sick leave. And I'd get APC's. That would be aspirin and something and codeine, and that kept me going. Let's see. We sportively graduated from Fort Benning in December of '43. Okay. The strategy changed at that time. They -- Well, no. No. Wait. Wait. Wait. No. We -- We went from Fort Benning. We went up to University of Illinois, Champaign-Urbana, and that was a hundred miles from home. That was a great thing. Anyway, I went on sick leave there. And they said, Uh, something's the matter. So I had pleurisy. And so they shipped me down -- they had to send me to a military base, and that was at Rantoul Field at Rantoul, Illinois. And I was there for, what, five weeks with rest and good chow, good food. I came back to the University of Illinois. This is in February of '44, and my roommate was a fellow by the name of John Rohwitter (ph). He was from New York. It so happened when we were overseas, he was taking a prisoner back to be interrogated, and tree bursts got him and just tore him up something awful. But anyway, he had five weeks of a room to himself, and he enjoyed it. As I say, the strategy changed. They needed replacements, and therefore they took out all the privates out of the Eighth Armored Division and shipped them overseas. And those poor guys, they didn't know anybody, and so on. We then filled in. My sergeant was Grover Cleveland Pack. He was from Tulsa, Oklahoma. One of my things -- Anyway, these guys all had enlisted prior to the war, and they were not the best guys. Anyway, one guy asked me to write home, Sergeant Burchett is -- he couldn't write and he couldn't read. So anyway, we trained there for eight months. We supposedly were the last division to go overseas as a division. We left from Camp -- Well, slipped my mind.
It will come back.
Okay. We went over on the Mauretania, a British ship. We landed at South Haven -- Southport -- Anyway. And I looked at the trains that they had, and I thought my trains at home, my play trains, were bigger than those that they had. So we went to Tidworth. We trained there for a month, and then we shipped overseas. We went over on a Polish boat, the Sabiscis (ph), and we landed at Le Havre. By that time, France was pretty much taken up. We were attached to Simpson's Ninth Army. And it was the Northern Army, and it was under Montgomery. And it was Montgomery, it was Hodges' First, Patton's Third, and down in Italy, Clark's Ninth. Anyway -- or no, Clark's -- whatever. It wasn't the Ninth. But, anyway. So we traveled through World War I territory and Metz, and so on. This was in December. It was cold. We used to warm our hands up by the exhaust of our Half-Tracks, but anyway. Okay. The Battle of the Bulge came. We were replacements. We really -- We didn't get into it too much. We went through the Ardennes. And finally, it did clear, and the Air Force came over. And you couldn't find a spot where it was clear. It was just full of planes, and that really helped. Okay. Our first thing was in Holland. In Holland, there is a little strip that hangs down. It's like an appendix. It's probably about 30 miles long. And eight miles to the east is Germany, and eight miles to the west is Belgium. Anyway. And that's at Maastricht on the Maas River. There were a lot of canals, and we had to take a canal. We had to secure a canal. That was our first action. We were at a turnip field, flat as could be. There was a stream of trees and a little -- piece of woods, and behind the woods was the canal that we were supposed to secure. So anyway, that's where we saw our first action. I have a helmet that was almost pierced by a bullet. I was falling, and instead of the bullet going straight, it came at an angle. And I'm sure there were probably five or six guys in these woods that were holding up our platoon of 30 guys, and we all fell. Anyway, had I stood, I'm sure it would have hit me in the heart. Anyway. So my son Joe, he's got my helmet. Anyway.
Is there a mark on it?
Yes. Yes. There is a crease in it. Let's see. Okay. We finally crawled off the field. It took about a couple of hours, and we did that and went through the woods. And those guys were all gone. We secured the canal, and that was it. Okay. Then the Bulge came. And we -- as I say, we were the last guys in there. But never forget how cold it was. Oh, it was snowing up to our boots, believe me. I'll never forget a tank, it just slid off the road. Anyway. Okay. Let's see. We crossed south of Cologne. I could see the -- I thought, the Cathedral at night on a pontoon bridge. We followed two slits, and the Half-Track in front of us kept going. We then -- with Hodges, we closed the, called the Bulge gap -- not the Bulge, the Ruhr gap. And I guess we got about 180 prisoners of war, and that was the end of the war, really, for them. That's one of my {indicating} -- This is the Battle of the Bulge, this is Ruhr Pocket, and this is Germany. Anyway -- and these were all points later on. I'll get to that. Okay. From that point on, we went east into Germany, a town of Soest, S-o-e-s-t. At all the little villages, we had a half- -- we had to get off of our Half-Track and go on to the tank, back to the tank, because the spot was where the turret met the tank. And that was a very vulnerable spot, and so we had to protect that area. Let's see. Okay. At Soest, that was a town maybe about 30,000 people. Our tank hit a land mine. I was blown off. I lost my hearing. I absolutely was deaf. It was like being without any identification. It was a terrible feeling. If I went on sick call, I'm sure I would have been sent back, and I would have lost my fans and all my fellows, so I didn't. And they covered for me. And in about a couple of days, my hearing started to come back. However, I have been handicapped, pretty much, for lack hearing. Let's see. Okay. From Soest, we were supposed to be the Armored Division going into Berlin. There was the Infantry Division in front of us, and they were the ones who met the Russians at the Elbe River. We were crossing the Elbe, and we were then to leapfrog them and go into Berlin. So I'm glad the Russians took it, because we would have lost a lot of people. Out of our 30 in our platoon, we had nine KIAs. Anyway, everything was artillery. Everything was artillery at that time. And their tanks were superior to our tanks, I assure you. And they had the 88s and so on. So anyway, the strategy changed. The Russians took Berlin, and we headed south. We went through the Harz Mountains, and that was like the green mountains of Vermont. It was just beautiful. It wasn't touched by war. It was a very beautiful spot. We wound up in Klatovy, Czechoslovakia. We were about 30 miles from Pilsen. We marched with the Russians in Pilsen. And it was a camp, or maybe even five, four-story buildings, and we took over one. And these other guys were prisoners. Most of them were Austrian and Hungarian and Czechoslovakian, and so on. And at that time, the war finished, and each one of these things {indicating}, which was points -- This was ten, and this was another ten, and so on. So anyway, I ended up with 61 points, and that was good enough to get me out. We went to Camp Lucky Strike. And they hooked us up with the 35th Division, and the guy made us take off our patches and put on the 35th Division patches, which I wasn't very happy with. We came back on the Queen Mary. It was a beautiful city. Statue of Liberty. I came back to Camp Grant. I was given a month furlough. I was in my brother's wedding party. Went back to Camp Grant. This was January of 1946. I was discharged. I again started at University of Chicago, completed my education there. I got married November 19th, 1949 to Dorothy. We had 52 years of married life. We had four kids. We lived in River Forest. I worked for Helene Curtis for 31 years. Had everything I wanted, everything I needed. Had a beautiful house. Anyway, I married my two daughters off and, later on, my two sons. Let's see. Oh, yeah. Dorothy and I traveled. We went back, and we did my ETO operation. And we went to Norway and Sweden and Finland and Denmark. Went all the way down to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. I had a good life. I have nothing to worry about. I was married 52 years. Dorothy passed away with lung cancer after I stopped smoking. Forty years. And still had lung cancer. Okay. Then I've I lived alone for the last ten years. I have a daughter in Arlington Heights. I have a daughter up at Mayo Clinic, and I have two sons in Elmhurst. We get together quite often. Bill calls every night. My daughter from Minnesota calls every night. Okay. That's it. I'll take any questions or any comments that you have.
Okay. Thank you for that. You said that you were in the AST program?
Yes, ASTP. Yes.
ASTP. And so that was -- wasn't that some kind of, like, a special training program?
Well, supposedly, at the places that they liberated, we were to go into a village and we were to be the administrator of the village. You would have to learn the language, and so on. We took some German, and so on. But then the whole strategy changed. With that, they decided to disband the program, which they did, and they shipped us into the Eighth Armored. And the Eighth Armored guys were replacements for getting ready for D-Day -- D-Day, I'm sure. For those guys to go into an outfit and not know somebody is pretty tough. But anyway, we trained from February until October. We crossed October, and then we went to Tidworth for a month, and then we crossed over to France, and so on. Okay. That's my story, sweetie.
Thank you.
So when they disband that program and you were sent overseas --
No. No. We went to the Eighth Armored Division at Camp Polk, Louisiana.
Okay.
We stayed there for February until October. Then we crossed in October, as I say, as a division. Oh. Oh. Oh. At Camp Polk, when I joined the Eighth Armored, they gave us winter coats and all this and that, other equipment, and I got an M1 rifle.
Had you ever fired before?
Yes. Well, we fired at Camp Polk. We had target practice, and so on. And they had various grades of targets that, you know -- Anyway, I became a marksman, if that meant something. And anyway --
It must have, right? What's this for? {indicating}
That's Combat Infantry Badge. Anybody who had a military occupation of 745, which is a rifleman, became automatically a combat infantryman. I was very proud of that one. This is a Bronze Star. This was after the war, I think, in 1946 or something. So, Act of Congress, anybody who had a Combat Infantry Badge became a Bronze Star guy. But anyway, my point was that I got my rifle at Camp Polk, and I carried it for six or seven months at Camp Polk. Went overseas, okay, had nine months overseas from France all the way over to Czechoslovakia, and I never fired my rifle once. Never fired it once. But anyway. But I had enough points to -- as I say, I got 62, or so many points, came back with the 35th Division on the Queen Mary. That's my story, buddy.
When you first made it, you know, how did you leave the state soil, you know, to Europe? Did you fly? Were you on a boat? Like, how did you get there?
We crossed on the British ship called the Mauretania, and this was in November or something. Anyway, we could look out, and we were in a convoy. They were sinking them quite a bit. But anyway --
Must have been scary.
-- you could see three or four various vessels every time you looked out. Some of the guys got really sea sick. They threw up bile, and so on. They were green --
I could imagine.
-- really green. But anyway. And we landed then at South Hampton, England. And that's where I said my toy train was as big as some of the trains that they had. We went to Tidworth. Did some "how to get out of ship if it was sinking," and so on, at Tidworth. And then we crossed over across the English Channel on the Polish boat and landed at Le Havre. At that time, France was almost taken over by the Americans, and so on.
So did you know where you were going? You know, like once you landed in South Hampton, did you already have an idea of, you know, what was going to happen next or was it --
Well, we knew we were going to cross, and so on. No. I never had a map.
Right. Right. But, I mean -- And it wasn't like the plan was laid out for you so you knew that, you know, in three weeks you would be here and in four weeks you would be somewhere else. It just all kind of happened. Wherever --
No. We were very mobile, because we were very -- I was in Half-Tracks. The tankers were with us. The tankers are the ones who really took it in the Eighth Armored. But anyway, as I said, we lost nine guys out of 30 in our platoon. We were all young. The way to go is, you know, at 18 years old without any responsibilities. And so I'm very glad for that. I've been blessed. I've been blessed with good health here now too. I live alone after ten years here -- my wife -- will be January the 25th of 2012. My kids call every day, and my daughter comes over for lunch, and so on. No. I've had a good life, honey. As I say, I couldn't see the sky. It was so heavy with airplanes coming over it.
During the Bulge?
The Bulge, yes. Yeah. So, anyway.
How did you stay in touch with your family through all that?
Something called E-Mails (sic). And, yeah, I did keep a daily diary, although we had reunions, and so on. I took the diary. And somehow I misplaced it, and I lost it. But, no, we would send E-Mails (sic). And, of course, everything was always checked over to see that we weren't giving away any secrets.
How often were you able to write home?
Maybe every once a week, every so often. And I'd write to Mother and Dad. Oh, we had my ball team. Nine guys, okay.
Baseball?
Yeah, baseball. All of us went in the service. There is only one that was killed. The other eight came back. And, anyway. But Eighth Armored, we had 60 or something annual review -- renews (ph). Most of them were at Louisville, Kentucky. So that was great for me to drive down, and so on. Oh, I stood up with a friend from the Eighth Armored Division at his wedding in 1945. Yeah, '45.
You were still in the service then, though, in '45.
Yes, '45. Yes. I was discharged in '46, January of '46. Yes. I stood up with him in his wedding. In fact, I still see him. He's in Park Ridge, and we get together maybe Christmas and a few other times. I've got a good life. Okay.
When you were at the Bulge, supplies were kind of an issue, right?
Yes. Well, it was very -- the thing -- once again, whatever division it was, they were pushed back, and so on. So I never saw, really, anything. Everything was either tank warfare or artillery warfare or land mines, and so on, and that's what got me at Soest. But, no. It was just very cold, and we couldn't have a very good billet. We didn't put up tents or anything, but we stayed in the Half-Tracks and huddled together, tried to stay warm that way.
Did you have blankets and --
Yes. Yes. Yes. In fact, we sat on blankets, because it's set on metals.
Right. It was too cold.
Pretty cold. So, yes, we had blankets, and we had overcoats, and so on. No. That was all issued over at Camp Polk when we left over. Okay.
What did you guys eat?
Most of it was C-rations, C- or K-rations.
What does that mean?
No. Let's see. There was one incident in Germany where we had been on K-rations for two or three days. And we got to a spot where a two-and-a-half-ton truck was going to come with some hot food and everything, and that was real great stuff. So we all lined up without our helmets. I had a piece of shrapnel -- the Germans knew the coordinates very well. And so, therefore, they came in with mortars, and so on. And never did get that hot meal. But, anyway. And I had -- An expended piece of shrapnel hit me in the head. That's about it. Okay. I never got the Purple Heart or anything.
But you got hurt. Your buddies protected you or, like, covered for you after --
Yes, covered. Yes, for two days, and so on. Then my hearing started to come back. But if I take out my hearing aids, I'm pretty much lost here. It's like being without identification, to be somewhere and not know who you are and so on. It's a pretty -- thing.
So when you got knocked off the tank and your hearing was affected like that, did you have -- I guess -- I mean, if you could describe -- I mean, I could imagine that, okay, immediately you noticed you couldn't hear. And then what else? I mean, did you have trouble, like, getting up or -- Like, how far did you fall? Like, how high is the tank that, you know, you --
No. No. I wasn't blown off, really. I didn't crawl off. It was blown up. The tank driver and the assistant tank driver, they lost their lives immediately. And I'm sure the tank commander, he was paraplegic now, I'm sure. Anyway --
So it wasn't just you that got harmed in that --
No. We had two -- two on, another buddy and myself. And when it hit the thing, we were blown off.
What hit you guys? Did you say it was a land mine?
A land mine. Land mine.
That you drove over.
Yes. Yes. And what else? You have more of an experience than I did, probably.
No, I don't think so.
Sure. Go on.
No. I'm all right. I'd rather listen to your story.
Well, 18 months of carrying that rifle, believe me, and nine months overseas, and I never fired it once. And I'm very proud of this (indicating). And, of course, this was an Act of Congress, and so on. So, anyway. All right. That's my story. What time is it? Oh, it's ten to 11:00 here.
Well, let's talk then about other stuff. Like, you were there during holidays, you know, like Christmas and Easter and Thanksgiving, right?
Yes. Okay. Yes. Thanksgiving, I was in Tidworth, and so on. And I met a cousin of mine. He was a doctor. He was up in an evacuation hospital. Anyway, he ended up in Italy. I had a day with him. He got me into the Officers Club. And what else? Christmas. Christmas was over in Holland, really. That was in the Bulge, and it was just another day. Just another day. As I say, this tank was going along, and it was so icy a road, it just slipped off into the ditch.
How do you get a tank out of a ditch?
They have -- what's it, not a tank destroyer but a --
M88?
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. And they would come, and then they would hitch it up. And they would pull it back off, and so on. But that's a long time ago. That's 65 years ago, buddy. That's a long time.
It's a long time.
Okay.
Did you get to go to any shows or anything?
Okay.
Did you have any fun while you were there?
Well, Red Cross. Red Cross. To get a cup of coffee from the Red Cross, that was great. No. Most of it was whatever we could carry on our back. Most of it was C-rations and K-rations, and so on. No, I never did see entertainment. But as I say, the Red Cross would come, and we would line up and have us a good hot cup of coffee.
So it sounds like you did get a little bit of leave. You know, like on holidays, like -- you know, your friend, you went to Italy and --
No, I never went to Italy. That was a medical doctor. But, anyway. No. Every day was just another day. Kept going, and so on. Okay.
Did they have church? What did you do on Sundays?
Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. We had mass on top of a jeep, and so on. Yes. We had communion, and so on. Oh, I saw Therese Neumann. This was in Germany. She had the stigma of Christ. And the chaplain took us over to her home. Maybe a group of 10, 15. We went in a two-and-a-half-ton Half-Track -- a two-and-a-half-ton truck. And on the way, we met one of the Red Ball Expresses. And, boy, he really drove us off the road, and so on. Anyway, we saw Therese Neumann in Konnersreuth, Germany. She was a little bit of a person, and she showed us her hands. And there were the purple marks from the impressions of the nails. She had to go to bed at Good Friday. That's really -- I guess, she really bled so much. But, anyway.
On Good Friday, her stigmatas would bleed?
Yes. Yes. The wound in her side, and so on. She had to stay in bed. And she was maybe a 50-, 60-year-old woman. The church was across the street, and she was on this side of the street. Let's see. What else? I can't think of anything else.
Where were you when you were told that it was time to go home?
We were in Klatovy, Czechoslovakia. And we started to tally up our points. And most of the sergeants, and so on, because they were in much longer than we were, they got out ahead of us. And then we went back to Camp Lucky Strike, and we had to come back with the 35th Infantry Division to Camp Grant here.
Now, how come you had to change your patch? Is that what you said earlier, that you had to change your patch from the Eighth Division?
I was very unhappy with that. We had to rip them off and put on the 35th Division patch.
Did they say how come? Or is that just what you normally do?
No. I guess it was -- That's what we were told to do. Okay. Came back on the Queen Mary, as I said. That was quite an outfit.
When you landed back in the States, where did you hit ground?
We landed at Camp -- No. I saw the Statue of Liberty, and I think we went right to a troop train at that point. And that troop train took us to Camp Grant. And I had the furlough from Grant, and then I was discharged from Grant. That was -- I remember I came home from Grant. And they took us back to Chicago, and I got on the street car. And I walked in on Mother and Dad. At that time, we were in Chicago. We lived in the Austin area.
It was a surprise?
Yes. They were very happy and very surprised, indeed. That was in January. That was after Christmas, and so on.
But you didn't know Dorothy yet, right?
No, I didn't know Dorothy at that point. In fact, I dated my sister-in-law's sister. I dated Elaine for maybe a year, and then we broke up. And then -- Oh, that was it. One of my baseball friends got married. I stood up at his wedding, and that's where I met my Dorothy and -- Dorothy Victor and Victor Gasket at North -- no, at Roosevelt Road and Central. They made gaskets for the 1919 and just had it right. They did very, very well. I met Dorothy, and we dated a year. Let's see. She lost her 34- or 35-year-old sister to a cancer case. So we waited a year, until 1949, December the 19th, this month. And anyway, Genevieve's daughter who was two-and-a-half, maybe three years old, she was our flower girl in our wedding. And I still get together with Gina. Yeah. Let's see. We were married at St. Vincent Ferrer at River Forest. That was before they had the church. We were married in the school, and Dorothy had to climb up on the stage with her gown, and so on. And we had two different priests there. That was a long time ago. That was 65 years ago. Okay.
Getting back to where it, kind of, all began for you and you were saying that at the kitchen table you guys were having dinner and that's when, you know, you had heard -- was it on the radio, the announcement about Pearl Harbor?
Yes. Yes.
Is that when your brother enlisted?
Yes, well, the next couple days. Okay. That was a Sunday, of course. And my dad used to like to listen to a fellow by the name of Kaltenborn in the news of the week, and so on. I think it was a University of Chicago Roundtable. But, anyway. So we had the radio on. And, of course, they interrupted and said that, you know, Pearl Harbor was bombed. Mother and Dad looked at my brother, a 21-year-old guy, and looked at me, and so on.
They knew what was going to happen?
And so let's see. Len got his degree from University of Chicago in the fall convocation, somehow in December. But anyway, he enlisted in January, was sent to Columbia at New York, became an ensign. Oh, Solomon Islands. He was in the Solomon Islands and then the Naval Reserve. I used to kid him. He had sheets, and I had mud. Okay.
Before that event, the Pearl Harbor event, were you much aware of what was going on in the rest of world with the war?
No. No. It was just ordinary life. No, no. No, no. We had -- It was -- No. No. It was just like growing up, and so on. I remember our whole block -- I lived on Laporte Avenue. It ran north-south, and we were off of Washington Boulevard and Lake Street. And anyway, every Sunday morning, it seemed the whole block got up and went to Saint Thomas Aquinas Church. But anyway, I'm actually from a mixed marriage. My mother was Lutheran, and she kept her Lutheran denomination until her death, and so on. Okay.
So when you joined the Army, you said you were drafted.
I was drafted.
Were you planning on enlisting or --
No. No.
No? Like, when you got -- Did it come to you in a letter; that's how you were drafted? Or, like, how did you become aware that your number was up?
Once you hit 18, you had to sign in. You signed in to a draft board, anyway, and then they kept it from that point on. I was going to school, and they let me go until June. In fact, they let me go until September. I was drafted in September, went to Camp Grant in September.
When you heard it was your time to join, how did you feel about that?
Glad to go.
Yeah, because you kind of expected you would anyway.
Well, all my other friends -- I was, once again, the youngest guy in our group. I was 18, and these other guys were a year ahead of me. They were all 19, and they were already in service, so I was glad to go too.
What was boot camp like? Do you remember who your instructors were?
Well, you meet different people, you know. First time I was away from home and meet a guy from downstate or something. It was mighty different. You mixed. You mixed very well, and you made a buddy. And with your buddy, you got along. John Hokansen and I, we did well, and so on.
So then after boot camp, is that when you took that test and then ended up in the ASTP?
I can't remember if I was -- if I took it that summer or if I took it as a draftee at Camp Grant. I suppose it was Camp Grant. This was an intelligence test. And that's where I had, supposedly, a high IQ. Anybody over 120, that was -- that was a good -- that was all ASTP guys. But the cadre that we had, these guys were career guys who spent five or ten years before the war, and the only thing they had was a job. This was in, remember, '32 to '40. And so they were all hillbillies, really, from Tennessee and Oklahoma and Texas, and so on. And this one guy, couldn't write and couldn't read, asked me to write a letter home. So, anyway.
Well, that was a huge help to him. I mean, what else could he do?
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Did you get letters from home while you were away?
Yes. Yes. We had mail call.
How often did you hear from people at home?
Maybe -- Dad was always -- He would number the letter, so I knew if I missed a letter or something, something happened or something.
That was smart.
Anyway, I suppose every three weeks, every three -- "Mail call." So you go out and call your name and get your letters. Okay.
Do you have anything funny -- Like, did anything funny happen to you that you --
No. No.
No, nothing funny the whole time?
No, not in a war, honey. Not in a war, no. Well -- Oh, wait. Wait. Yeah, at Tidworth. Yeah. Yeah. We used to go into town. I was only there four weeks or something. Anyway, Tidworth is, anyway, maybe 100 miles or something -- well, 60 miles north of London. And we used to go into town and have a beer, and so on. Coming back, oh, it was foggy, absolutely foggy. You couldn't see in front of you. And sure enough, I fell into a foxhole. Okay. So anyway, I crawled out and came back to camp, and so on. Oh, but once again, it was, like, not only sunglasses but really, really thick fog. Oh, my youngest daughter, Judith, she had -- she was a stay-home mom. All four of my kids were private colleges. We did very well. Anyway, Judith's oldest son is now over in Scotland. He's at Saint Andrew's University where the Prince and the --
Um-hmm.
Okay. Well, he's a geology instructor over there, and he just went over there in the last three months. And so we're waiting for letters and all. Although, nowadays you can pick up the phone, and it's as if they're right next to you; they're that close. So anyway, they have a three-year-old kid. And she is expecting again too. So anyway, as long as your parents are American citizens, the kid is automatically an American citizen too. So when the newborn will be born -- this will be sometime in May of this coming year -- she will be an American citizen, but she can probably have Scottish citizenship if she wished. Okay.
Were your parents in the military, your mom --
My dad. My dad was World War I, and that's why I say they looked at each other at --
Like, "Here we go again."
Yeah. And a 21-year-old kid, and so on.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, anyway. No. Dad was a civil engineer in water works at City of Chicago. So we had to stay in Chicago. I'm a graduate of Austin High, which is, I don't think -- they disbanded it or -- It's no longer there, although the buildings are. Everybody walked to school. Nobody rode anything. Oh, my kids -- when I lived in River Forest, we were off of Division Street, and they had to go to Lake Street. And they had do that from lunch too. They would quickly walk out and come back and have a lunch, and Dorothy had everything ready. She was a stay-home mom and got them all back at school. Let's see.
Did any of your kids join the military?
No. No.
Would you have been okay with it if they did?
No. No. No. No. It's not worth it. No. I'm glad -- Well, let's see. I guess I was too old. I wasn't drafted again for the Korean War or anything. And then I'm 86. I'll be 87 next year. No. No. I'm am glad that they missed everything. They missed everything. We were very glad for that. In fact, I don't think I know anybody in service now at all.
If you were a little bit younger, you would have been called back into service?
Yes. Yes. I would have been in the Korean war, yes. Yes. But again, we had -- Well, let's see. I got married '49. I was 24 years old and, let's see, started a family in '51. I had a daughter. I don't know when the Korean War was going on -- in the late '40s somewhere? Okay. Anyway. No. Let's see. I still got my discharge papers here.
Do you normally carry it with you or do you just have it for today?
No. No. No. I carry it with me. I carry it with me, honey. {Reading} "Eighth Armored Division Association."
So in case they try to come back at you again, you could say, "Look, I'm out"?
Yeah. How very true. There you are. {Indicating} See, there it is. There it is. There it is, buddy. There it is. Honorable Discharge. Okay.
It's hard to read from that.
Yeah.
You said you still stay in touch with some of your buddies.
Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, I have been, a Eighth Armored Division friend in -- All my baseball guys are all passed on, yeah. Frank -- No. There is one guy.
You said you lost one of them during the war.
Yes. Well, the Eighth Armored Division guy, he's in Park Ridge. I stood up in his wedding. But, anyway. No. I have one other baseball friend. He's in a retirement home. He was a medic, and he got shot up pretty well. He's on a walker, and so on. And I go visit him every three months, or so on. I can read it: Ardennes, Rhineland, and Central Europe, and then Eastern Germany.
Is that what the stars are for -- what each star is for?
Yes. Those are battle stars, at five points, five points, five points.
Which generals did you serve under?
We were under Simpson's Ninth Army. We were in the Ninth Army, and we were actually with the British. It was Montgomery. Yeah.
General Montgomery?
Yeah. Yeah. And he was a cautious guy, so. Really, can you imagine I carried this rifle for 18 months and never fired it once at an enemy.
So what was your role? You know, you rode on -- Did you ride on the Half-Tracks?
No, no. No, no.
What did you do?
We rode tanks. This was -- Our squad was in a tank -- in a Half-Track, in an open Half-Track, and that's where we had all our equipment, and so on. We had a mortar, and we had a machine gun in there, in a Half-Track. And when we went into -- This was in Eastern Europe in Germany. When we went into a town, so we would protect the tank, as they get out of our Half-Track, and we would have to mount up two to a tank and protect them because -- so they wouldn't throw a molotov cocktail out. And let's see. What else? No. No. Just buddies. That's all. I don't know where the orders came from, but they came, and you did what you were told. That is all. Okay. Come on. How about you? You want to say anything?
Yeah. I'm starting to run out.
When you mean "Half-Track," are you talking about an APC 113? What did you --
No. A Half-Track is a Half-Track and then two front wheels.
It looks like a truck in the front and a tank in the back.
Yes. Yes. Well, not even a tank. It was empty. There was a door in the back too. You could get out through the back, that way. But, anyway. Then we built something around the back and put all our overcoats and everything else in there. Let's see --
What's the advantage to moving in a vehicle like that?
Oh, mobility. Well, we traveled -- I'd hate to have paste it off. Especially, you know, inclement weather too, we were able to cover up a little bit. We had the tarp that went over the back. And so we'd huddle under that, and so on.
You said you slept in those things.
Yeah. Yeah.
Is that where you slept all the time or did you --
No. No. No. No. No. No. Once we -- In Germany, once you hit a town, they automatically take over a house. I'm sure these people, then afterwards, they would file a claim and they got it. But, anyway. No. We were billeted in a house. And we'd go downstairs. And that's where all the preserves were, and we would take strawberries in a preserve bottle.
What a treat that would have been.
That was a real treat. That was a real treat for us.
Yeah.
Yes.
What were the C-rations like back then? The K-rations and C-rations, what were they like?
K was a can, and those were sort of a hot meal. You could heat it up a little bit. The C-rations were in a box, and that was with a chocolate bar in there, crackers, and so on, a tin of something you would open up.
I mean, was there meat, you know, like --
Yes. Yes. In the tin --
Yeah.
-- there was some meat for you.
So do you despise Spam now?
Yeah.
You really can't even stand to look at it now?
Right. No, no. That's Hormel. No, no. No. I learned to cook after ten years here. I had never cooked before. I had my mother, and then I had my wife. And she passed away, and I had to learn how to cook. I still don't -- I eat a lot of cut up chicken and a lot of, yeah, other meals. Anyway. But I'm going to Bill's for Thanksgiving. That's our usual thing here. He's got four kids.
Yeah. And one of them just got married, right, the one out in -- is he out in Vermont?
No. Let's see. No. Melissa isn't married yet. She is in Philadelphia. She is in a nonprofit spot.
Is she the writer?
No. No. No. She is interviewing people to get donations for this nonprofit organization.
One of them wrote a book, though, right, one of the girls? Didn't one of the girls write --
No. That's Sally.
-- a book or a short story?
She is still in school. She is still in school. Sally will be graduating in June. She is not quite 21 yet. That's Sally. Sally and Melissa and then -- well, it's Benjamin. He's in Vermont. He's married. And that's where we had the wedding party. That was just a year ago, it was. And then Melissa, and she is in Philadelphia. She's in Villanova at will. She was cum-something-laude. Okay. Anyway. And then there is Stephen, and Stephen is in Indianapolis. And then there is Sally, she is here at DePaul. That's Bill's family. My daughter's family, Judith, that's, okay, Timothy. Timothy is now over in Scotland, over two months here. He is a professor of geology. He's got a kid, and they got another one coming. The next one is down in San Diego, and he's got a Ph.D. He's got a post doc. He's looking for a job, I guess. And then we have -- come on -- Diane. Diane is in Washington, D.C. with the CIA at Langley Air Force. The fourth one is Therese, and Therese is at Berkeley. This is her fifth year. She is a pole vaulter. She does 13-plus feet pole vaulting. And to get into the Olympics, she has got to do 14'6". She is still trying to make that 14'6". Okay. And then there is Bill and his family. I just went through them. Then there is Joe. Joe was married 12 years, and they got divorced. He works at a bank. He's a loan officer at Community Bank of Elmhurst. He gets the boys every weekend. Neither one of them remarried -- in their fifties. She shouldn't have been married. But, anyway. And the boys are -- Let's see. Collin is second year at York. He's a soccer player. And the other guy is in eighth grade. He'll graduate June of this year. He'll go to York. And they get together. We see them quite often. Joe has them every weekend and sometimes during the week. There is no difficulty.
So everybody ended up okay.
Yes, everybody is fine. I've had a good life.
When you got home, did you start school right away?
Yes. I think I got discharged on a Tuesday or a Thursday, and the next Monday I was back at the University of Chicago.
Did you get to take advantage of the GI Bill?
Yes. Yes. From that point on, yes.
What about, like, housing? Wasn't there a -- you know, like a special program to help Veterans buy houses?
Yeah, Quonset Huts. You had to be married to be in a Quonset Hut. So, anyway. But, no. I commuted. I commuted from the West Side. I came from Austin. I'd get on the Lake Street elevated, and I'd get off and get on the Jackson elevated, and get off at 51st Street. 51st Street was a one-man car. Everybody getting off and getting on; it was murder, and I had books and everything. And it would then go down, I guess, Cottage Grove to 55th Street. And I would get off at 55th and Woodlawn, and I'd go another two blocks. No. I passed where -- in what year, '42, where they made the atomic bomb. It was in Stagg Field. I'd walked by Stagg Field, and they were under the stands at Stagg field. And they were doing their experimenting, and so on. And there is a monument there now. And, anyway, it was a good hour-and-ten-minute ride to school and an hour-and-ten-minute ride back home from school, and I did a lot of reading, and so on.
Before you got into the Army and you were in school, you probably had some kind of a career path in mind. Did that change after you got back or did you pick up where you left off at exactly the same place?
No. It was "comme ci, comme ça," you know, whatever happened. No. I had no -- I was -- Wait. I was a good student at Austin High. Top five percent of the class or something. Anyway, nobody had cars at that time. We all walked to school, and so on, eight blocks or so.
Uphill both ways?
Yeah.
Yeah?
Now everybody -- everybody drives. My grandson is second year at York, and he's looking 16, and he wants a car already. Anyway, yeah. No. No. It's just whatever accident happened, you know, it happens. It happens. I had three jobs before I had Helene Curtis. Anyway, I was -- First I was at U.S. Gypsum for one year. And then I took a state exam, and I was a research analyst in the Department of Labor, State of Illinois downtown. I had lunch with my dad. He was at City Hall, and I was over in the State of Illinois Building. Anyway. Oh, I then quit Illinois -- State of Illinois, had a year at Zenith Radio. Then from Zenith Radio, I applied at Helene Curtis. And that was the Gidwitz family. The Gidwitz, they were a Jewish family, and they did well. He started out from nothing in 1920's, and he had a thousand employees.
Weren't they in Melrose Park, Helene Curtis?
Well, that was the trucking outfit there. That was a warehouse. But actually, we were at North and Kostner, and Grand Avenue came in there. It's all re-done there now. Schwinn bike used to be right over there. But this was -- Let's see. What was the name on the other side now? We took over a red building. It was a square block, and it's all knocked down now. And there is a shopping center there now. But, anyway. Oh, oh, oh. That was it -- my train of thought -- the president was Gerald Gidwitz, and he was from the University of Chicago. So therefore, I sort of had an in with him, and I know him. He came to my retirement party. He lived to be 100 years old, 100 years old. Oh, my brother is 91, and he's in better shape than I am, really. He's doing well. He lost his wife at 65 for him. He re-married, and we get together, you know, a wedding here, and so on, a funeral here, so on. Yeah, all my buddies are gone from the baseball team except the one guy. He's in a nursing home -- not a nursing home, a retirement home. He gets around on crutches. One leg is shorter than the other, and so he's got a special shoe that's got a 3-inch high heel.
Did that happen while --
In service, yes. Yes. Yes.
-- yeah, in service.
Yes. Yes.
Because he wouldn't have been drafted like that. Or, would he?
No. No. No. No.
No. So that happened while he --
He was a medic, and he got --
Oh, he's the one, yeah.
He got hurt, was wounded. His knee was in a bad way. He was at Hines. Do you go to Hines?
No. I go to Jesse Brown.
Where?
Jesse Brown. It's on the West Side, West Side VA.
Oh, oh, oh. Okay. Okay. No. I'm at Hines.
Yeah. Hines is far west for us.
Yeah. Yeah.
We live in the city.
I really should be in North Chicago. But anyway, I grew up at Hines almost. So, anyway. No. No. I'm taken care of. All my medical cares are taken care of. I get all my pills shipped in. So I take now eight a day, but I'm doing well. I'm doing well.
Did being in the military, being a Veteran, did that help you in job searches over the years or --
No. No. I think it was my contact, certainly at Helene Curtis -- was through University of Chicago. No. Military? Well, I go there for my pills. And I'm in geriatrics, and I have a doctor. And then this doctor, you know -- every three months, you know, not only get a blood test but also go see this -- MRI, and so on. And I'm shifted around to other doctors, and so on. But, no. I have -- No. No. Veteran service didn't help me at all. I'm not a joiner. I kept my own friends. I never joined the American -- I'm a D-A-V guy, Disabled American Vet, but that's something else.
So you don't go to the American Legions or anything like that?
No. No. I went there for many, many years. As I say, the best one was in Louisville, but then sometimes we went to -- outside of Philadelphia and went through Hershey factory, and all this and that. But, anyway. No. Louisville was -- What's the camps down there?
Fort Campbell?
No. Oh, Campbell. That's it. That's it, Campbell. Yeah, Campbell.
Yeah, it took me awhile to think about it.
Okay. Thank you. Campbell, yeah. So every time the Eighth Armored was down there in association, it always put on something, that Camp Campbell, for us, and so on. And, of course, all of the equipment has changed now, and I'm not with it at all.
Your son Joe asked in a message, you know, that he sent to Bill, so it came to me through Bill, that he's wondering who Judd Alexander is.
Judd Alexander. He was in our squad in the Eighth Armored Division. He was in our platoon.
How would he know to ask who he is? How would Joe know about him?
How would who know about him?
How would your son know about Judd? Have you talked about him in the past?
Well, Judd became -- he went to Carlton College. My daughter Anne, my oldest daughter, went to Carlton College. And my youngest son Joe went to Carlton College. Anyway, Judd Alexander was in our squad. He became a salesman for a paper company, and he became president of paper company, some River. Anyway. No. He was well-healed. And once again, every time we get -- He's now in New Hampshire, in a retirement home in New Hampshire, Exeter, New Hampshire. We exchange Christmas cards, and so on. And I probably talked about him. He was a good guy, a good buddy. My best friend was John Hokansen who passed on in the last two years here. Hokansen. We got on the wrong train in England.
Together?
Yeah. Yeah, together. And it stopped at a certain junction, and we got on the wrong train. But anyway, we got to Bath, and we got from -- we had to get back to Tidworth, and so on. And we got -- Okay. What did I see? The Stone --
So that would have been kind of funny.
Yes. Yes. Stone Hedge. We got to Stone Hedge. We got to Salisbury Cathedral.
All because you ended up on the wrong train?
No. Oh, no.
Oh, okay. You were going there anyway.
Right. We had a three-day pass, and we would take off with Hokansen. He was a good guy. Okay. I can't think of anything else, honey.
When you just -- you know, just think about your experience, the first thing that pops into your head, I mean, like, what's the picture that pops in?
I suppose being overseas and being in the Ardennes. Actually, we didn't -- never saw an enemy all along. It was the MOS number, that 745, that got me my awards here. But, no. I'm glad I was a rifleman. I'm very proud to be in the Eighth Armored. We ended up in Czechoslovakia. A long way from a home. Dorothy and I went back. We went there. I showed her the Harz Mountains, and so on. Okay. Come on. I'm warn out. What time is it?
Yeah. What time is it? It's warm in here too.
It's 11:40.
It's 20 to 12:00.
Do you feel finished?
Yes, I'm finished.
Thank you so much.
I have nothing to tell you about.
Thank you. It was a great story.
Okay.