Encoded for the Experiencing War web site for the Veterans History Project.
The recording of the interview with Jaime Eduardo Tijerina was digitized.
This transcription was encoded with minimal changes to the original text in an effort to preserve original content and idiosyncrasies of the person interviewed. Period language and terminology are also retained. Encoding is literal with regard to the transcriptionist's capitalization, punctuation, and spelling. Spelling errors are indicated with [sic]; however, recurring errors in spelling within a single document have been marked the first time and not subsequently.
Good morning. Today is November 11th of 2014, and my name is Lynse Guerra, and I am conducting an oral history of Judge Jaime Tijerina in Edinburg, Texas. And -- I'm sorry. I didn't get your name.
Lisa Kinsel.
And taking the history today, the court reporter, will be Lisa Kinsel. Can you please state your name and address for the record?
Jaime Eduardo Tijerina. I'm from [address redacted]. Although, I'm originally from McAllen, Texas. I temporarily live in Mission.
And here in the valley, that makes a difference.
It does.
We're gonna start a little bit -- just about some general information about you, and how you grew up, and your childhood, if we can do that. So you said you were originally from McAllen?
Correct.
Were you born and raised in McAllen?
I was born in San Antonio.
Okay.
And my parents moved to McAllen in 1966. They were from Rio Grande City, Starr County, Texas.
Which is the county next to us?
Which is the county next to us. Correct.
Okay. What are your parents' names?
My father was Cruz Tijerina. My mother, Lily Tijerina. My father was also -- He retired as a lieutenant colonel in the Army. He also served in World War II and Korea, but we lost him about 20 years ago.
I'm sorry to hear that. So your family has a strong history of military service then?
I would say so.
Do you have siblings?
I do. I have five brothers and sisters.
What are their names?
Tomas, Leticia, Luis, Ana Katrina, and Cruz.
Did any of them also serve?
Tomas served at the end of the Vietnam era. He -- He joined right out of high school, and was not sent to Vietnam, thankfully, but did his one tour -- or did his obligation stateside.
Okay. Where did you graduate high school?
McAllen High School. 1981.
And you went to college after that?
I did.
Where did you go to college?
I started my college career at St. Mary's University in San Antonio, and then I finished at Pan Am.
Pan Am is a college down here in Edinburg?
Now, and when I graduated, it was University of Texas Pan American. Soon to be University of Texas Rio Grande Valley.
Yes. Yes. That is right. And you went to law school after that?
I did. I went to law school at Thurgood Marshall School of Law, part of Texas Southern University in Houston, Texas.
Great. What year did you graduate law school?
'95.
Right.
1995.
Did you go into the military after law school, or were you in the military before that?
No. I -- Actually, while I was in Pan Am, I took a year off, and I enlisted into the Army. I enlisted in 1988, and went to basic training at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. And my military occupational speciality was a graves registration specialist.
Now, I have no idea what that is, so you're gonna have to explain it to me.
Well, I joined the Reserves and -- When you join the Reserves, you have to have a unit that's gonna take you. And there's a unit out of McAllen -- a reserve unit in McAllen that was a supply company. And part of the supply company was a small detachment of graves registration. And, basically, what graves registration specialists do is: They do search and recovery missions of killed -- soldiers that were killed in action. Then we also provide mortuary services and cemetery management.
Okay.
That's -- That's what I first did in the Army.
Okay. How long did you serve at that time?
I did that for one year.
Okay.
More or less. And then I was back at Pan Am, and I joined the ROTC program. And the ROTC program had a program called a Simultaneous Membership Program, where you can be in the Reserves and be in ROTC, and you got an automatic bump to an E-5, which is an enlisted -- term for the level -- it was like a sergeant, but you were -- you're working as kind of like a cadet.
So raising your rank in the military?
Yeah.
Okay.
You're -- You're a cadet waiting to be commissioned, but you're in the Reserves as an E-5.
So you did ROTC and Reserves while at Pan Am?
Yes.
Okay. And then what did you do upon completing Pan Am?
I got a commission in 1991 from Pan Am. They branched me engineer, so I went back to Fort Leonard Wood where the engineer school was -- it was Engineer Officer Basic Course for six months.
Back in Missouri?
In Missouri.
Okay.
And so I completed Engineer Officer Basic, and then was in a variety of reserve units -- engineer reserve units for a while, while I was in law school.
Oh. So you were able to do that while you were in law school?
Yes. There was a unit out of Houston that I joined. The -- Now I can't think of it. I think it was the -- the 95th Division -- No. 75th -- 75th Division, training out of Houston. They were off of Old Spanish Trail. And I did that the entire time that I was in law school.
Did you have other people in your class who did the same thing --
No.
-- or was that kind of an unusual thing for a law student?
Let's see. Why did you originally decide to join the military?
I joined the military partly because my father's time in the military. I admired that. I wanted to be a part of that. And they also had some educational benefits that were gonna help me get through the rest of my college, which was a big factor in my decision.
Sure. Did it help pay for school while you were there?
It sure did. It still is.
And I assume that's a benefit that a lot of people look into when they go in -- is that -- is that -- getting that educational benefit out of it too?
Yeah. It's really worthwhile. And I'll share with you: When I say "it still is" -- It's paying for my daughter's education right now.
How -- Now, how does that work?
My service after 9-11-2001 -- They have a thing called the post-9/11 GI Bill. And so I had originally had the regular GI Bill, and I actually used a part of it. But anyone -- excuse me -- Anyone who served post-9/11 also qualified for a post-9/11 GI Bill. Congress said we could transfer that to either a spouse or children. So since I was already out of college, out of law school, never wanting to go back again, I transferred my post-9/11 GI Bill to my daughter, who is now using those benefits to go to college.
What a --
And it's -- They're great benefits, and I appreciate what the -- what the Congress did with that.
I've never heard -- I didn't know there was a separate GI Bill for that. That's really interesting. Now, you said you were -- served in the -- are currently still in the Army. And why did you pick that branch? Is that because that was your father's branch as well?
Well -- Yeah. You know, I never really thought about picking another branch. But the Reserves have -- here in the valley -- in the Rio Grande Valley -- reserve units all through -- from Rio Grande City to Brownsville. There's several -- There's several units. And, usually, when you go into a recruiter -- who I knew well -- a gentleman by the name of Cali Carranza, who was a musician and well-known in the valley, who was also a reserve recruiter -- They -- When you -- they recruit you, they give you a spot nearby. You have to be within 50 miles of your reserve unit. And, of course, since there was one in McAllen, they gave me the McAllen location. So -- and it just made sense. There is a Harlingen unit that has Marines and Navy. I never even thought about that. So Army seemed like the -- the right thing to do.
When you had to originally go to bootcamp, was that -- did your dad prepare you for that in any way, kind of let you know what it was gonna be like, or was it a shock when you got there?
Well, my father was a -- was a lawyer. He was a federal judge, he was a city judge, he was a JP here in the valley, so he was pretty well-known. And we were -- we were boys -- we were four boys in his family. And so on occasion, you know, my father assisted us out of jams.
Mischief that boys get into. Yes.
And I remember when I joined the Army, he told me to be careful because "there's nothing I can do for you there".
And there's only so much a father's reached has. It does not go into the military, I guess.
Yeah. So -- And that -- That actually resonated with me because of -- of all the things he -- Not that we were bad kids or anything, but -- That he really stressed: "Hey, don't do anything because I cannot help, and nobody will help you, and -- and it's serious business once you join the Army".
Did it teach you a level of discipline you've never experienced before?
Oh, yeah. I mean, basic training is -- is quite the experience, but it was fun. In hindsight, it was fun.
Now, looking back on it -- And from -- At the time, you weren't thinking, "Oh, this is a fun way to spend some time"?
Well, our court reporter can tell you too, because she's been in. But I'll -- I'll share the -- The first few moments of bootcamp -- They kind of sucker you in by sending you to this little place for a few days where they teach you how to make a bed, and you wear your civilian clothes, and everyone is still kind of smoking and joking. And then one day, they stick you on a cattle truck after you have all your equipment, and they -- I think they go around in circles to make it look like it's a long trip.
The court reporter is smiling. She agrees with you.
Because you're really in what they call a cattle truck, and you're standing, and you can't -- you can't sit down. And there's multiple levels so that they can fit as many people in it as possible. And it looks just like a cattle truck. And then they drive around in circles. And then they go to your barracks, and then the doors open, and there's like about 20 to 25 drill sergeants doing nothing but yelling at you. And they're yelling all kinds of things, including obscenities, and -- and you have two duffel bags, and they tell you not to put them on the ground because you brought it, and you hold it. And they get you in a formation where you have to hold it until people's muscles start giving out, and then duffel bags starts hitting -- hitting the ground. They'll grab a duffel bag, they'll reach in, they'll throw everything everywhere. They'll start making you do -- It's -- It is that first 30 minutes that is just complete chaos and hell.
Gosh.
That's when you say, "What did I get myself into?"
And I'm sure there's a purpose for all of that. They're trying to -- to mold young people into learning the entire military --
I think the --
-- lifestyle?
I think the basic thing is: They want to break everyone down to the lowest possible level so that they can build you back up the way they want to.
Yeah. For the --
It works for most, but there's a few people that they still can't do that to.
Did you ever serve in a war?
I did.
What war did you serve in?
I'll -- Well, I served Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom in -- in Afghanistan. And I also had -- I'll briefly discuss my other overseas tour, because it wasn't OEF or -- When I say "OEF", I mean Operation Enduring Freedom. I had EOF orders. It's kind of strange, because they were OEF orders to go to Germany to backfill for the 1st Infantry Division, who was going -- They were going to Iraq. So the 1st ID when to Iraq.
And then you were supposed to go to Germany --
I go to Germany because --
Okay.
-- they still have elements that are there. I'm trying to think of what they call them -- the rear detachments. They're still there. They still have some people working back at their headquarters, and they needed lawyers. This was the first time we've had a large-scale deployment, I think, since Desert Storm. And, surprisingly, some -- some people in these units that were going to Iraq -- they didn't show up for movement. They got on a plane, went home, they went off post, got an apartment in Germany, and -- and didn't show up for when the unit had to go. And so there was a lot of people charged with missing movement, or absent without leave. And I went over there as a trial counsel and -- and prosecuted those cases.
So you were a JAG officer?
I was a JAG officer.
When did you start as a JAG officer?
Earlier I mentioned I was an engineer --
Uh-huh.
-- officer. And after law school, I went into a thing called the IRR, because I didn't have a unit. That's the Inactive Ready Reserve. I was looking for a unit. And that kind of stretched for about two years. And then I got a -- I something in the mail that said, "Do you want to" -- "Are you interested in joining a unit where you're from?" And I actually signed it, and sent it back. And a few weeks later, I got orders for a transportation unit out of Brownsville, Texas. And I joined that unit. Two weeks later, we went to Fort Polk, Louisiana for the JRTC -- Joint Readiness Training Center -- and we did a three-week training exercise. It was just like a -- It was in the box. It's like war games. It was hot. It was miserable. I'm not a transportation guy. I didn't enjoy my three weeks that I was there, so I immediately filled out my paperwork to join the JAG. And that was in 1998. So in 1998, I got accepted into the JAG Corp. and assigned to a unit out of San Antonio.
Now, I understand from other friends who have been military in law school and then tried to get into JAG that it's actually a very tough program to get into. They don't just let anybody who's -- has a -- who has served in the military and has a -- a law degree become a JAG officer. So what kind of special classes or skills did you have to demonstrate to be able to do that?
Well -- And the level of difficulty in getting into the Army, regardless of what branch or what MOS -- it fluctuates depending on the needs of the Army. For instance, when we were at the height of the Iraq war, the age waiver -- the age requirement for joining the Army went up, and it's since come down. Waivers were given. And right now, since we're drawing down -- we were -- we left Iraq, we're drawing down in Afghanistan, they're actually kicking out a lot of people of the Army.
Because we just don't need --
We don't need the people.
-- as many members right now?
Yeah. And so those things kind of go up and down. But it is -- It has gotten more difficult today to join the JAG Corp. It's very competitive. At the time, I couldn't say how difficult it was. I had a lot of experience in the Army. I interviewed with somebody. It's actually a complete brand new commission when you join the JAG Corp. So they accepted me, and I was grateful.
So what year was that?
1998.
So go back. And so you're in Germany, and you're in JAG, and you're prosecuting people who have not shown up for their deployment?
Yes. And the unit I'm in is in Iraq.
Okay.
And so we're -- We're in a unit that's in Iraq, but we're back home. So it -- It's not -- I didn't serve in theater, but I served during that portion of time with a unit that was in Iraq.
And how many years did you do that, or months?
I actually did that for six months.
Okay.
It was called a TTAD, a temporary tour of active duty.
And what was your next active duty after that?
Well, and I'll -- I'll go back just a little bit.
Sure.
In the Reserves, pre-September 11th, 2001, it was always fairly slow. We did two weeks, 14 days of annual training, one weekend a month. Reserves always had old equipment, old buildings that we worked out of. It wasn't very glamorous at all. Post-September 11, 2001, everything changed. As a JAG officer in a reserve unit, we were working two months -- two weeks out of the month -- two weekends out of the month. They were giving us 29 days of AT so that we could go and prepare other units for deployment, I mean, because units were being deployed constantly. All of the units in the valley -- the 812th Quartermaster, the 961st, the detachment out of Rio Grande City, the 370th, the Marines, the Navy -- all deployed multiple times in a ten-year period, and we were always there to provide them legal services before their deployments. And we were going all over Texas providing legal services to --
What kind of legal services did you have to provide?
We do the mandatory legal briefings.
Okay.
For soldiers who are gonna deploy and redeploy when they come back. And we'd also do wills and powers of attorneys for soldiers.
So their things could be in order if something should happen to them?
When you deploy, you have to put a packet together. You have a Family Care Plan. You have a will. You go through what they call a SRP, a soldier readiness processing, and you had checklists. And medical is part of it, legal is another. And so you have to at least go to a lawyer and say, "Prepare my will" or "I don't want a will. I don't need a will". But everyone had to at least get a check off that they went to see the lawyers. And then we provided mandatory training, such as training on the Law of War --
Uh-huh.
A few other matters.
Okay. Now, I've run into, in my years of practice -- there are people who don't want wills because there's something, to them, spooky about creating a will, as if somehow that's going to ensure that they pass away or, like, they think somehow having the document, that -- Did you run into soldiers who felt that way, who were like, "No. No. I don't want the will because I'm coming back"?
No. We really didn't. And I think the Army does a pretty good job of ensuring that the soldiers are prepared, legally, when they go. In fact, if you're on active duty, there are legal assistance centers at every post, manned with lawyers, civilian and military, who provide them legal services every day. It's part of their benefits package. They don't represent them in court, but they do do wills, some estate planning, powers of attorneys, and help them with landlord/tenant things, and things of that nature. I've done that many, many times, so --
What sort of other -- I think you -- you were with -- you said Operation Iraqi Freedom?
That was the first one, and then --
What was the next? Enduring Freedom was the next one.
See -- I was at that one in Germany. Oh, and then I was with -- there with a unit out of San Antonio called the 1st Legal Operations Detachment, and they had sent me to Corpus Christi to man a team there. And I was in a building that was shared with a unit called the 211th Regional Support Group. It was a brigade headquarters. It was -- It was commanded by a O-6 full bird colonel. They were tapped to go to Iraq to run a forward operating base. They hadn't received orders, but everybody knew that they were in line to go. So I was in this legal operations detachment providing legal services to soldiers, and this 211th RSG was gonna deploy, probably within the next two years. They needed a JAG, and so I did a transfer and moved to the 211th RSG. We trained for about two years, and then they got the -- they got the WARNO, the warning order. "You are going to Iraq". And then from the warning order to the actual order, there's a process of training that we trained up --
How much time is that, when you get the warning order?
We get the warning order about a year in advance. And so then we -- we did an exercise that summer at a place that simulated running a forward operating base. We were -- I'll get into what we did over there. But you run it like you run a city. And we did that training exercise in El Paso. And then there's a lot of mandatory training that you have to do right before you hit your MOB station. Our MOB station was Fort Hood, and --
What's a MOB station?
Your mobilization. It's your point of -- of departure. And Fort Hood has a MOB station that's geared to taking units, because you have to go through a validation, which -- they take you through an exercise where you simulate running whatever you're gonna do. They have all the scenarios for company-size headquarters, company supply -- We were a mayor cell that was gonna run a forward operating base. So they stick you in this building, and they throw scenarios at you, and you have to be able to handle all of those things. And once they validate you, then you're ready to -- to go --
And I'm sure --
-- overseas.
-- the purpose of that is to make sure that each individual unit knows everything they need to know before they send them overseas.
Exactly.
Because you don't want them over there unprepared for it.
Well, and then you -- you -- there is a -- The unit that you're gonna replace is already there. And usually about six months before you go, you send a team -- about four or five people -- to go visit with them. So four or five people from our unit went to Iraq, got on the ground, met with the people we were gonna replace, got all the information that we were gonna need about what we were doing, took pictures, and -- that way they could come back and give us an overview of what we're gonna be doing. And -- So that -- And that was done. And then we went through the MOB station, got validated, and we waited another, like, 35 days just waiting for our flight.
Oh, goodness.
Yeah.
Now, were you married and did you already have children by the time you were doing that?
I did.
How was -- How was that on your wife -- telling her that you were gonna be going to Iraq?
The Iraq one was -- was not difficult, because she knew.
She was prepared for it?
She was prepared. I mean, it's a -- We got the warning order. Everyone knew you were going, and -- and she went through the -- The Army has this thing called the Yellow Ribbon process, where they have all these briefings for families. There's like six or seven stages that you go through, and the first three include the family, and -- and then some of them are only you. And then when you come back, the family goes together as well. We went to California this last time. And you get all these debriefs. You get help if you have -- if you need psychological help, if you need medical help. There's family classes and all kinds of -- They do -- Army does a pretty good job now of -- of reintegrating soldiers after they deploy. So she was prepared for the Iraq deployment. We'll talk about the other one later.
The other one -- And so by then, you get to Iraq. And then how long were you there?
Yeah. You get to Iraq, and you do what they call a RIPTOA. Army has a ton of acronyms. A RIPTOA is -- I forget -- It's something "in place transfer of authority". That way you do what they call a "right seat, left seat". You meet with the unit that's there. You meet with the person you're gonna replace. You work together for about seven days so that you know all the things he needs to know. And then they get on a plane and leave, and then you're -- You have the -- You have the transfer ceremony, actually, and then you're -- you're the guys. And we ran a base that consisted of about 16,000 soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines, contractors, third country nationals. It was a big one. It was Sadam's former Iraqi Air Force Academy.
Okay.
So it had a -- We had an air strip that was very active. And we had Special Forces units on our -- on our forward operating base. We had all kinds of units that were there. And we were there, as I mentioned, as the mayor cell. We provided life support to everybody. We ran the base. We owned it. It was ours.
What was your particular job -- you individually?
I was counsel to the mayor. The mayor, being the colonel, who was the commander of the 211th RSG. We call him "the mayor" because he --
He's running the town.
He runs the town. And I'm his lawyer.
Okay.
Yeah. And I'm the staff's lawyer. We have a staff that does personnel, staff that does security, staff that does logistics, operations -- all those staff members rely on me for legal advice as well.
And how long did you -- did you serve there?
We were 11 months boots on ground in -- in Iraq. The whole mobilization or deployment, from the time we left -- We had to do three weeks at Fort McCoy. We did two weeks, home station in Corpus Christi. We did about two months at Fort Hood. We were -- not two -- almost two months at Fort Hood. We were gone over 13 months total.
How would you describe the experience? Was it challenging, frightening -- Because I -- I've had no experience, ever, serving. And so I don't know if there are just long periods of time where it's a regular day at the office, or if it's every day, because of where you are, a heightened sense of -- "Well, this is" -- "This is serious, and this is" -- "this is a more tense situation than I've ever been in before".
Well, it is very challenging, and you're -- you're in a heightened state of alertness, even in Iraq. Iraq was not as challenging as Afghanistan, but we'll talk about Afghanistan in a little bit. One of the advantages of going to Iraq was: I went with a unit. I went with people I knew. We had all been in the Reserves together in one place or another, and we trained for so long together -- you felt comfortable with the people you were with. But it's a war zone. And so danger lurks, even amongst the most ordinary thing. I mean, you have -- Even in your area, you have barb wire fences. You have fuel farms, you know, full of fuel. You have Iraqi soldiers that -- You always worry about that friendly fire from your -- your -- your partners in -- in the Iraqi Army, in the Iraqi police. So there's always danger. But the -- COB Speicher is the forward operating base that we -- Well, they call it a contingency operating base, but I always call it a FOB or a forward operating base. It's out in the middle of nowhere. It was ten miles -- or maybe five miles to Tikrit. So we felt relatively safe there because it was desert, and no one could really attack.
You would see them coming?
You would see them coming. And we had -- We had guard stations all around that were manned by Ugandan guards. They're contractors. So we never really worried about a complex attack on Speicher. Although from time to time, some people would throw old rockets, mortars, and artillery into Speicher.
Over the fence?
Yeah. I mean, they'd come from the town. They were rockets and --
Oh. Okay.
Yeah. They were -- But that happened when I -- I was there 11 months boots on ground. That probably happened five times when I was there. And there was even occasions where some were -- were lodged at us, and they didn't explode. You know, just an old Chinese rocket sticking in the ground, not -- didn't explode.
It had gone -- gone past its usefulness --
Yeah. But it felt pretty comfortable there in Iraq.
Where was the next place that you were in active duty?
We finished Iraq, and then I came home, went back to my regular job as elected county attorney. And I had signed up as a volunteer with PPT&O, which is a personnel office at -- for the Reserves. And there was actually some tours that I was interested in, but they were highly competitive tours that -- and I don't think I got considered. But then one came up to be an -- a legal advisor to the Afghan National Police. And since I was a county attorney who advised a group of deputies in a small county, I think I was kind of the right fit. And then they put me in that position. And that was two years -- two years after I got back from -- from Iraq. I got a call at my office saying that I'd been selected to fill a position as a legal advisor to the Afghan National Police. And my wife was, like, clueless.
Yeah.
She had no idea. None.
Well -- And I was wondering -- and so I'm glad you mentioned your job as a county attorney. Because sort of in the back of my mind, as you're talking about all of this military, I'm thinking: How does your regular civilian profession go on hold for -- for all of that time?
Well, I was lucky because I was a county attorney in a small county. And each time, from the three deployments that I had, I was able to hire an assistant. And they took my position when I was gone.
And so you'd be able to go back when you were done?
Sure. And it was elected, so no one can fire me.
Yeah. Different than being in a private law practice --
Right.
-- where everything would not --
And I did -- I did have a private law practice. As the county attorney in a small county, I was allowed to have a private practice. So I usually had a small practice that I had to scramble to get other lawyers to help me with these -- the cases that I had pending, which -- And I had a lot of good friends that helped me with that, so -- never was an issue. But I got the call, and my wife was clueless. She had no idea that -- that I was even looking at other possible tours or anything. I really wasn't being very active in it either, but -- you know, I -- As a -- As a soldier in the Army Reserves, you have to take care of your own career. So I'm always talking to the people at PPT&O, and -- and about different things to do, even new job assignments here. And so you know the people. And then they just kind of put you in where they want to -- where they want to put you in. So I got that call that day, and I -- and I talked to my wife, and -- and I just say -- Out of the blue, I just told her, "Hey, I got a call today and -- that they're gonna send me to Afghanistan". She said -- She said one expletive.
So what year -- What year are we talking about?
That was 2011 -- is when they told me.
Yeah. So, I mean, it's -- it's at a time where what you're watching on the news about Afghanistan is -- is frightening for people who have, you know -- who have no experience in it, or just watching the coverage, going, "This is a very scary place to be going to".
Yeah. We -- We had -- We had come out of Iraq. That was over with -- With the exception of -- of the embassy and a small force in Iraq, everyone was gone out of Iraq. So now we're focused on -- to the extent that they actually covered the Afghan War still -- we're focused on Afghanistan. And it seemed like at that time there was what they call "green on blue".
What's that mean?
The Afghans killing -- Friendly Afghans killing American. Green on blue. It was happening all the time.
Yeah.
And that was about the height -- when I was gonna be going over there. So I tell my wife I'm gonna go, and -- and this is probably November. This is November of 2011. I have a very, very, very short window. And she said that one thing, and then she said, "Okay. We can deal with it". So I started -- I'm going as an individual now. But before, I went with a unit. We trained up as a unit. We go as a unit. I have a roommate. I had a friend of mine. We have social hours. You know --
You have people you know?
Yeah. So that's -- That was a very different thing. Here, I'm -- Now I have to report to the CONUS Replacement Center out of Fort Benning, Georgia, which I've been to before, because that's where I went before I went to Germany. So I was at least comfortable with -- with the CRC. And -- But I'm moving alone from here to Afghanistan. And what a lot of people don't understand is: There's people that assist you. But once you get your orders -- And if you're an individual, you have to show up on your own to the CRC. You go through your training, and then you have to work your flight to get on a flight to get to Kuwait. And then once you get to Kuwait, you have to work your flight to get to either Kandahar or Bagram. And you have to be on the phone the whole -- I mean, this -- you have to make sure you get there. And it's not hard, but it's --
It's not the same as with a unit where everything's set up for you?
Yeah. I mean, you're trying to get on a plane and you're having to go to the -- the terminal, which is not like a terminal that civilians are used to, to get on a flight. And then once you get there, you don't know who -- you don't know who's who once you get to Bagram. Anyway, so I -- I got assigned. I made contact with the people I was gonna be assigned with. I was going as -- as a legal advisor to the Afghan National Police as part of NATO Training Mission Afghanistan. NTMA.
Now, if you're part of a NATO mission, how is that different from being part of -- of just a traditional mission from the U.S. Army?
From a -- From a experience standpoint, it was an experience like no other, because it's a multi-national force. Our commander was a U.S. general, 3-star. But under him, we had Canadian generals, Polish generals --
Polish? Really? I had no idea.
There was a lot of -- there was Kiwis, there were Aussies. Within ISAF, Czechs, Norwegians, Swedes, Germans -- you name it.
Yeah.
And so when we have a big staff meeting, there were 20 countries represented.
Now, what are they conducting the meetings in? Are they going in English, or people --
English.
-- listening on headsets --
No. No.
-- with translators? Everyone has to --
If --
-- English?
If you're going, you're learning English. And most of them do --
Yeah.
-- at that point. Most of them speak pretty good English. I was surprised. Except -- I think it was in Herat -- they had brought in Albanians. I didn't even know Albanians were a part of NATO at the time. But the Albanians ran the gates. And their best English speaker was not very good. It was --
Some challenges?
It was difficult. But it was really just so interesting, all the different forces that were over there. I think when I was in -- I went to another base in Kabul and there was some -- they weren't part of the NATO training mission, but -- there was some soldiers from Ecuador. Yeah. From all over. Just doing something.
Yeah. So who would you -- Was there someone that you were reporting to? Or since you're advising Afghan -- Or are you there with the Afghanis advising --
We --
-- all the time?
Our day-to-day -- I show up to Bagram and I get a ride on MRAP to Camp Eggers. I lived at Camp Eggers in the middle of downtown Kabul, Afghanistan, which is in the green zone next to the embassy, next to ISAF Headquarters, so you can walk around there a little bit.
And by "the green zone", you mean an area that's been secured and protected by --
Yes.
-- the military?
The Afghan capital is there, where Karzai lives and works, and the embassy is there. It's a fairly secure area, although it was breached many times, from time to time, during our time over there. But anyway, so I'm a legal advisor to the Afghan National Police. The Afghan National Police is similar to a -- our police here. They do the community policing, investigations, traffic, but they also are like a light militia. They have Afghan National Civil Order Police, they have Afghan Border Police. And they all have an offensive capability. Because, at the time, there's -- there's no declared internal or external conflict in Afghanistan, so the army, under their constitution, has no authority -- and this is something people don't know -- have no authority to conduct offensive operations in Afghanistan. And so the army is really not doing anything other than: When they're in an area, if there's contact, they'll respond. It's the police who are doing most of the work with the terrorists, and the Taliban, and the Haqqani Network, and those types of people who are conducting or creating havoc within Afghanistan at the time. And so we advise all those different elements of the Afghan National Police Legal Affairs Department. It's a like -- It's like a JAG Corp. for the police, but they're not really lawyers. There's also a civilian lawyer who advises the Ministry of Interior that we advise as well, and his team of lawyers. So it's -- It's almost as if -- the cabinet level positions to the president here -- Ministry of -- or Secretary of Defense, Secretary of Interior -- all those cabinet level positions -- we're advising a cabinet level there in Afghanistan. Not really the same.
Yeah.
They don't operate on the same level that we do. Plus, their budget was funded probably 99 percent by the U.S. Government anyway, so --
Yeah.
And so we have -- Most of our advisees are in Kabul. There's the headquarters for the Border Patrol, there's the headquarters for the Civil Order Police, and there's several zone headquarters for police in -- within Kabul, who are also responsible for the zones outside of Kabul all over the country. So my job on -- mostly, on a daily basis, was to go to the Zone 101 Headquarters, which was KCPC, Kabul -- Kabul Center Police Center. And that was the main Kabul police station. And then there was a Zone 202, which was half of Kabul, but then a big area south of it. Then we did the Border Patrol -- or the Border Police and the Civil Order Police. And then once a month, we would fly to Herat. We flew to Helmand, Mazari Sharif -- And we tried to go a lot of different places, but sometimes circumstances wouldn't allow us, including pushback from our own forces that didn't want us to come.
Do you feel like your help there was appreciated? Was your advice being listened to?
I made some very good friends in the Afghan Police.
Wonderful.
I really enjoyed -- particularly, the top colonel at the headquarters for the police at the Ministry of Interior, Colonel Haquiqui -- is a very nice, and his assistant, Colonel Obadelaw. I know you're gonna have trouble with those. They were nice guys. I traveled with them. We became friends. We even drank non-alcoholic beer together. They said it was to -- to calm their stomach. But they were very nice. They were -- They were family men. You know, they -- they were just trying to take care of their families, and I never, ever feared that they would do anything to me. We worked hard at -- and they worked hard to try to make their country a better place. I can't say that about some of the others who I think were really just buying time, and --
Just waiting for the U.S. and NATO forces to be out of their country? Is that what you mean by "buying time"?
No. I think that they're just -- If the U.S. was there, they'll be there with us. If Russians are there, they're there with the Russians. Now, I think Taliban is a different story. I think they might be out of town. But they were just there to profit on their own --
Yeah.
-- from their position. And so, yeah. Some of them were very good. Some of them, not so good. But we were -- We were -- We went all over the country advising our -- our people. And it was -- It was -- It was pretty interesting. But on a daily basis, we would move in convoys throughout Kabul.
How -- How many months were you there?
I was there eight months. I was in -- in -- in Afghanistan eight months. My orders said 400 days. I expected to be there a full year, but it was during a time that Congress was cutting the numbers allowed in Afghanistan, and they were just cutting positions and sending people home. In fact, some people were showing up, and then their job was gone. And they either had to look for another job, which is -- I think it's hard for civilians to understand -- that they might find some place else -- they could stay there, or they were sent right back home.
Were you able to communicate with your family while you were there?
That's -- I think that's one of the -- the positives or -- one of the improvements we've made with technology and soldiers being deployed. Skype -- I mean, you can get Internet service in your -- I lived in a shipping container -- two stories of shipping container, stacked, built out with walls and a bathroom on each end. And they run Internet. You got to pay for it.
Yeah.
There's a private company that runs Internet service. And I think I paid, like, $20 a month. And you could -- It wasn't the best service, but at least when you got home at night, you could open up your computer, and you could Skype with people at home --
That's nice.
-- which was -- which was nice. And even the cell phone that my -- that the Army gave me when I got there -- It was just a regular cell phone, and that's how we communicated. My brother called me on it from -- I told him not to, because I -- I think, you know --
You weren't supposed to be using it.
Yeah. I mean, we would get so many minutes, I think.
Yeah. I'm sure.
And the way we spent money over there, I doubt anyone would ever check. But he called me one time on my cell phone, and it worked. So communications back home was -- was fairly easy, and that makes a big, big difference.
I bet. I bet it makes your family feel better at night when they're able to see you for a while.
Now, the -- One of the -- the drawbacks is that when something bad happens, there's usually a blackout. They cut Internet service. They cut the telephone services. Because the Army wants to communicate to the family before anyone else does. And that can create problems, because there were several times while I was there when there were bad things happening that were reported nationally here, and you can't --
You can't call home to say --
You can't call back.
-- "It's not me. I'm fine".
Yeah. "Not me. I'm fine." Yeah.
Frightening time for your -- your wife and your children during those --
I never -- I never thought about it until -- One day, my friend, Captain Hett, and I went on a one-vehicle move. And we weren't -- Afghanistan was way worse than Iraq as far as security and -- Did I ever feel like I was gonna die? In Iraq, no. In Afghanistan, yes, all the time, because of the green on blue happening all the time.
Yeah.
Because of the car bombs in the streets of Kabul, the traffic -- We were in traffic that was so congested, you couldn't go anywhere. And you couldn't even go off to the side of the road because they had these big, really giant ruts where the water would run off into. So if your plan of action was to just get up onto the sidewalk, you couldn't, because you'd fall into a two-foot hole. I mean, it's --
Yeah.
-- terrible infrastructure. But I never really thought about how my -- my family felt until that one day when Captain Hett and I went on a -- we went on a mission to go advise Colonel -- Colonel Banwal, I think his name was. And he was at the Zone 202 Headquarters. We went on a one-vehicle move, but we had developed a plan. In case something bad would happen, we'd hook up with the -- there was a MP group that advised the commander of that -- of that unit, and it was in a fenced area. And so if something bad happened, we would go up -- hook up with them. They had a safe room, and they had security. They had MRAPs, which are the big trucks. So we get -- we get there, we go and talk to Colonel Banwal. We go and talk to Colonel Banwal. And, of course, it's a really nice day, so his windows were open. We park our car, we walk up the stairs, we sit down -- We weren't there 30 seconds, and all of a sudden you could hear the automatic fire and the big booms, booms, booms. And every now and then, you hear automatic fire, and you just kind of wait, and it would go away, so you continue. Right? Well, this one didn't stop. And it didn't stop. And it just got worse and worse. And so we started communicating with our headquarters. And -- And we're all by ourselves. There's just two of us with our translator. And then we find out that there's an attack on our camp -- Eggers -- where we live. We had driven from Eggers to Zone 202. And it's a -- it's a good, like, eight miles, so we just can't get in our car and run back. Because that -- now our camp is being -- is under attack. And then Parliament, which is one block away from where we're at -- I mean, it's literally our -- Zone 202, another block, and then Parliament is right there. And that's where the other attack is going on, so we're stuck. And my headquarters is telling me, "Everyone, stay in place". And I'm telling them, "We can't stay" --
"This is not a good place to stay".
"We can't stay here, and we have a unit we can move with back to another base. They have up-armored vehicles. We'll run in the middle of them. We have communications." They're telling me, "No. No. No. No. No." And, finally, I get a hold of my Staff Judge Advocate, who I really don't work for, but he's -- he works for the commander of NTMA. And, finally, they give me permission to move. So now I'm stuck with the -- with the -- the MP guys. And we're waiting for things to kind of calm down. And we're in a safe room, and everyone's looking out the windows. And finally they decided to move, so we walk -- I mean, we -- we went through the little area where they're still attacking Parliament, and we get to this other place, and we're finally safe. I can't get home for four days.
Wow.
And I finally got a hold of my wife, like, two days later, and --
So it's been almost --
-- she's --
-- a week by this time?
No. It was -- It was two days later from the attacks.
Okay.
About three days later. And she's freaking out because this one was all over the news, and it was -- she could tell it was right where I was, and I'm not calling her. And the whole time -- you know, you're a little scared and stuff, but we're just -- we're just doing our thing. We're soldiers, you know. I'm not thinking about it. I'm not worried. And they're worried sick.
Yeah.
And I never even thought to think how worried everybody was. And it made me kind of -- I don't know -- reflect to maybe be better about communicating -- communicating with them.
You can imagine how -- how different times were when people were off to war and serving, and you -- you'd get a letter in the mail maybe once a month, if you got something like that. And so how those families must have felt back then -- never knowing for such long periods of time --
Yeah. It's a -- It's a different -- It's a different ball game now. You want constant communication. And that also causes a lot of problems for us over there as well, because the Dear John Letter is a phone call.
Yeah.
It's an immediate one, or it's a Facebook post with your boyfriend --
Changed your relationship status?
Yeah. And that happens way too often. We had -- From the 63 that I deployed to Iraq with, I know there was at least 4 divorces --
Wow.
-- during -- or going on, that commenced during the deployment, which is -- I think it's an astronomical number for that many people at that period of time. That wasn't a pleasant part of it.
So that was your last active service. And was that in 2012?
That was in 2012.
And you're still in the Reserves?
I'm still in the Reserves.
Do you have plans of continuing on? Is there -- I don't know how it works. Is there a period of time where at some point they tell you, "You've reached an age limit, and we don't want you to participate anymore", or --
It all --
-- "You've reached a certain status, and so now there's nothing else for you", or --
It all depends on time and service and rank.
What's your rank now?
I'm a lieutenant colonel now. And so -- And I don't know what year it is, but there's a certain point where they'll say, "As a lieutenant colonel, that's it". And it might be, like, 28 years of service -- "Lieutenant colonel, you got to go". But if I make O-6, then you can extend it.
What's "making 0-6" mean?
Colonel.
Okay.
Full bird colonel. So if you make full bird, then they extend it a period of time. But then you only have so many looks at the promotion board as well. So it's a little formula. I'm not there yet, although I do have my 20-year letter, which means I can retire right now if I wanted to. I have 20 good years. I got enough retirement points. I'm good to go. I could -- I could sign the letter, send it --
Yeah.
-- to Washington, and I'd be retired.
But there's something that tells me in this conversation and watching you describe it that that's not something that you're planning on doing.
No. I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna -- I want my first look at O-6, and I think if -- I think I'm gonna do one look at O-6, and -- And if I don't get it, then I'll -- then I'll just retire. Although, my -- my former commander, the one who just left, didn't make O-6 until his third look -- his third promotion board. So it -- We'll see what happens. You know, it's -- it's an interesting dynamic when you're so far away with a bunch of people. Even when I went to Afghanistan, I didn't know anybody, but you get to know them really fast. And -- And the attitude you take is: When you get there, you're gonna -- they're gonna be your new family, because you got to rely on them. If you -- If you try to be on your own and not be friendly, then it's -- it could be --
A harder time?
It's a lot harder. We -- We met once a week and watched a movie in the office. And one of the Navy JAGs that showed up -- She tried to throw a party, like, every two months. We had a karaoke party. We did a St. Patrick's Day thing. We did a Cinco De Mayo thing. It was funny -- Someone asked me, "What was a funny thing?" She wanted to do a Cinco De Mayo thing, so she ordered all these -- she ordered all these Mexican things for the party, like a -- like bowls for -- for salsa that had, like, a little Mexican look on them --
Uh-huh.
-- and stuff like that. And she would buy all this stuff online. And -- And these little plastic bowls were, like, a dollar, and she'd ship them for, like, seven.
But she wanted the look.
Yes. I mean, it was just really funny. I remember specifically one time she got, like, a little, tiny pair of maracas. You know, the little -- And I think the invoice said they were, like, 95 cents or something like that, and then the shipping was outrageous. She was funny. She didn't care.
It was a sweet thing for her to do to keep morale up.
Yeah. It was. It was really nice.
And let's see if there -- I have -- You are currently serving as a district judge here in Hidalgo County?
Correct.
That's what your job is right now. You're not doing it -- You're not serving overseas right now. You're here with us. How do you think that time that you've had in the military has contributed to your civilian job?
Well, you know, it's funny you ask that. We are -- I'm running a campaign right now --
Uh-huh.
-- so that I can stay on the bench.
Right.
I was appointed by the governor for the vacancy. And we're really running my campaign based on a set of core values that I've adopted -- that I've learned from the Army. Those values -- It's a values campaign that the Army started many years ago. I -- I'll pull them out. I've got my dog tags.
Now, do you wear those all the time, or do you wear those --
I do.
Okay.
And I -- And it has the Army Values on them: Loyalty, duty, respect, selfless service, honor, integrity, and personal courage. I'm running my campaign on that. I taped the -- I have a little copy I made from the Internet of these values, and I taped them to the inside of my bench, because I have opinions about a lot of things --
Uh-huh.
-- but you can't take your opinions on the bench. And so I rely on my values when making tough decisions. And it's the message that we've been giving to the people as I've been running as well -- that these are values that I have. They apply. They guide my service, and they're values from the Army. Plus, during this campaign, I've been working from morning to night, and it's still not as tough as the time I spent in Afghanistan.
I would think not. A --
So --
-- very different thing.
-- I can reflect sometimes -- When I think times are tough, I go, "This is a peace of cake".
Yeah. The value that I noticed the most that pulled out from me of those was the selfless service, because being a judge should be something that you do as a service to your community, rather than as a career enhancement or something you're doing for your own personal gain. And so I think that that's the -- really, of all of those that you mentioned, that concept of selfless service, that you're doing it because you've spent your career serving your country, and are now trying to serve on the -- as a judge to your community is an -- is an interesting take from that military experience.
I went to see John Cornyn the other day here in the valley.
Who is a U.S. Senator for the great state of Texas --
Yes.
-- should people listening or reading this one day not know.
And he -- And I've adopted this saying that he said when he was up there. And I think he said his father said this. I'm not sure. I'm not sure where he got it. I wasn't listening until I heard it because it resonated when he said it. And he said, "Some people get into politics to be somebody, others to do something". And so I feel like I'm the latter. I don't need politics or service to be somebody. I am who I am because of the -- the service. And I really -- And I'm blessed in my -- in my private life to where I can serve, and I really enjoy doing it.
Well, Judge, thank you so much for your time, and for your service to our country, and for taking time out this morning to give us your oral history. We appreciate it.
It was my pleasure.