>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. >> Gary Rhay: Three fine gentlemen who were Navajo code talkers during World War II. Rather than spend a great deal of time myself talking though I'd just like to have each of them take 5 to 10 minutes and just talk about themselves, where they came from, how they came to be in this program, and then we'll kind of take it from there. >> Keith Little: My name is Keith Little, I'm from Crystal, New Mexico. Originally, I was from Tuba City, Arizona that's on the western part of the Navajo nation. And I was about a 15-year-old kid when we first heard about the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. And I did not know where Pearl Harbor was and in the school, in the boarding school at Ganado Mission, Ganado, Arizona. And we were quite upset why that happened because we knew nothing about the problem the United States and Japan were having at the time. And it was billed over the news as a sneak attack, so that made it kind of -- quite a resentment against the people that bombed Pearl Harbor. To begin with, we didn't even know where Pearl Harbor was being that the Navajo land was so isolated at the time with hardly any outside contact except the people that were running the school. But anyway, it took until 1943 for me to become 17 years old so I could enlist with parental permission from my guardians. So, I enlisted in Gallup, New Mexico they told me to run back to [inaudible] and ride the school bus to St. Johns, Arizona. From there we were shipped to Phoenix. So that's how I got to the Marine Corps out of feeling of the way the bombing of Pearl Harbor kind of more or less filled up a resentment that you had to do something to the people that [inaudible] that bombing. So, in my own personal way I felt that I had to do something, I have to somehow contribute, but at 15 years old you were just a helpful person, you don't know what to do. Everybody else is, all of your buddies and friends were leaving and going into the surface and to make things a little more unknown was the fact that I didn't even know anything about the United States Marine Corps even existed at the time too. But during the summer of 1944 there was a surge of Navajos enlisted into the Marine Corps and some of my friends went and were in boot camp when they wrote a letter to me saying that they were in the United States Marine Corps. So that kind of swayed my mind that I shall also enlist into the Marine Corps since there was a way of retaliation for me against the people that pulled an attack on Pearl Harbor. But that's how I got into the Marine Corps that was my own decision for resentment against the Japanese people for pulling something like that. So, in May 1943 I got to boot camp in San Diego. And during the course of my training the DI's, the drilling instructors asked if I happened to be American Indian, so I told them yes and then he went further and asked me if I was a Navajo. So, I told him that I'm a Navajo and in return he says I hear that the United States Marine Corps need Navajos real bad because they make good scouts. So that is how they channeled me to Navajo communications school at Camp Pendleton. I went through and I qualified, entered the fourth Marine division in December 1943 and shipped over in January 1944 and saw my first battle at [inaudible] Island in Marshall Islands. My second battle was at Saipan and then my third battle I was at Tinian in the Marianas. And my fourth battle and the last one was Iwo Jima in the [inaudible]. So that's how I got into the Marine Corps and our convalescent camp was at Maui Island in Hawaii, Camp Maui that's where we were when the war was over and that took a lot of burden, mental burden off our mind because there's always uncertainties about going into the homeland of the Japanese people and we knew that we're going to have a tough going with them. So that was the size of my participation in World War II with the [inaudible] Marine Corps and also as a Navajo code talker. [ Applause ] >> Sam Smith: Good afternoon, he said everything I wanted to say. I'm [inaudible] similar situation being underage and having witnessed the sneak attack December 7, 1941 of Pearl Harbor. I'm an Arizonian they sunk the USS Arizona battleship, so that kind of got me angry. And I was only 15 too at the time. I was going to Albuquerque Indian School during the summer. Everybody went to war that 1941 December 7, even this whole country went to war. All the things that we eat, a lot of things that were rationed, gasoline was rationed and you couldn't buy more than a few pounds of steak because it was needed by the soldiers and then there was a lot of [inaudible] growing up all over this country and that's where all of [inaudible] qualified to join in the Armed Forces in the United States were going to get a job and work making the ammunition for the Armed Forces. And I got a chance to work on the railroad that summer, 10 hours a day I was only 15 and a half. My older brother went to work first and he said he was 21-years-old. When I got over there I told them I was 22 and I got to work just to get myself in shape to join in the Armed Forces of the United States to defend this country. It so happened after that time there was things that were coming up. I got to thinking about the Marine Corps because they said that was the toughest and I prepared myself to take that challenge. And finally, I got in in 1943 in May. I went to or it was 1942 during the Christmas vacation we went down to Albuquerque with this guy, he was eligible I wasn't, so I went back into the recruiter and told him I made a mistake on my birth year and I lowered the year and then I become eligible. So that's how I got in to be a Marine. I went down to San Diego [inaudible] there was a level, the medication school. When I finished the 13 weeks boot camp I took an aptitude test to be a pilot. I passed, I had only finished 11th grade, so they wouldn't let me in. My next choice was artillery because that can do a lot of damage. By that time they found out I was a Navajo and they asked me if I was a Navajo and I said yes. After that I'm not on my own anymore they took me up to Camp Pendleton Oceanside, California where there was one [inaudible] full of Indian boys and men and that's where they Navajo code talker school was. So, I joined with them to take that training not only the Navajo code, but I took the other course to be a communication personnel. We have to learn Morse code [inaudible], plus the Navajo code which was mostly memorizing our own language, but it was developed by the first 29 men that did the job. We had to learn, memorize that [inaudible], so I did that with them. One day they told us that they were going to give us a test for promotion to sergeant and I made the grade, but I didn't get the stripes I got sent overseas with 30 other men, which was a [inaudible] division and it was wonderful. That's how it happened. We hit Marshall Islands first and then came back to Maui, the second biggest island in Pearl Harbor that's where we maneuvered with the replacements. And all the men who were code talkers in the fourth [inaudible] division were [inaudible], they had a big tent and that's where we did our practice Navajo code. And if we had any problem on the previous [inaudible] that was where we corrected because we wanted to make the code to work very fast without any mistakes. We had to do that everything. So, after that we hit Saipan which took us I think it was three weeks. And the [inaudible] there on Saipan after we deliberated the Micronesian people that were captured there and later we went across [inaudible] west to Tinian where we didn't have much problem because the Japanese were doing [inaudible] like the cowboys and Indians [inaudible] behind the hill and come over shoot and then they just picked them off. And there we also got to have a little fiesta of our own, there was some goats there and we butchered the goat and had a cookout. At first, the Navajo were eating the mutton by themselves, later I saw some white boys eating mutton. So, we had a good time there and then later came back to Maui. During the recuperation of Maui, they flew me and my sister to Pearl Harbor and then we found some other instructors from the Marine Corps division that were brought from other islands. I don't know exactly know where, but the fifth Marine division was the big island. So that's how we put together our communication and correct problems [inaudible] the next operation which become Iwo Jima. And when we was going to hit Iwo Jima at the briefing they said it's going to take one week to retake that island, small island. So, we hit next day and stayed there for about 32 days. And that is about the size of my experience in the war. They called the fourth Marine division the [inaudible] division in the South Pacific. [Inaudible] our general was a republican. We fought too many times in a short period. I served two years nine months in the Marine Corps and came out with high numbers. I [inaudible] a lot of numbers to be eligible to get discharged. And I did this when I was not even a citizen of the United States and also there was a treaty back in 1865 that was signed by our Navajo leaders that in order to get released from [inaudible] or compound by the government that we never bear arm again. So, they were released on that condition, but during this World War II it affected some of the men [inaudible] any armed forces of the United States on account of that resolution. But the Navajo Tribal Council immediately [inaudible] wrote a resolution to the congress for them to approve it and [inaudible] free for us to join any armed forces of the United States. And that is -- another thing that we didn't like me for instance, I didn't like being told at the schools where I went not to talk my language. We were forbidden to talk Navajo language up to World War II. And here [inaudible] what they did for the war is the language, the Navajo language. Now it is emphasized that the Navajo language be taught at all schools on the Navajo reservation. There were other things that the Navajo [inaudible] the Navajo tribe that opened the doors to some of the things that we couldn't do or couldn't have before that war. The United States government was trying to separate us from our reservation, they had plans to send us out on relocation, a lot of us took advantage of that, but we all came back to the Navajo reservation and tried to stay with the culture. Thank you very much. [ Applause ] >> Sam Billison: [Inaudible], everybody say [inaudible]. [ Inaudible Comment ] You just spoke the code. [Foreign language], aloha. >> Aloha. >> Sam Billison: [Foreign language] and finally, good afternoon. My name is Sam Billison, I went to school in Albuquerque Indian School and I enlisted in 1943 when I was in high school senior based on the idea that there used to be captions in newspapers and radio that the feud, the raid, the Marines and I really wanted to be one of those. To make it worse John Wayne was making some pictures of the Marines. So, I enlisted and the recruiter said go get your diploma, finish your high school we'll come and get you. So, they did graduation day they were sitting over there on the side waiting for me. So, I guess they already saw the principal and when I came across the stage they pronounced my name Sam Billison Private United States Marine Corps. And I threw out my flat chest and cross, I was real proud. Went to Santa Fe, took my physical, they took me to San Diego and I went to boot camp, which is basic training. After boot camp they found out I was a Navajo and I could speak Navajo, understand Navajo so they told me we have a program for you. There were two of us in that platoon and then there was this other guy and they asked him how about you kid and he says me too. So, both of us they told us throw your seat back that Jeep will take you to the oceanside. And I thought gee what are they going to do with us at the oceanside, I didn't it was the name of a town. They took us there and there was a big brand-new camp, Camp Pendleton. And we drove up there and there's a big barracks and all the Navajos were studying outside I guess they were studying code. And I thought gee look at all those Navajos I just came from a Navajo reservation I don't want to be with them I want to be with the Marines. So, I stopped there, we stopped there, registered and start studying that code. It got real interesting and the language was coded where nobody could understand it. The concept came from World War I where the Army used [inaudible] to translate messages in their own language it wasn't coded, so any [inaudible] could understand what they're saying. Contrary to that the Navajos it was code that nobody understood, not the Marines, not the Baptist church, not even Navajos they haven't even broken the code yet. And the first 29 Navajo Marines are the ones that developed this code. Most of those first 29 they were sheep herders, they were all sheep herders before we got into the war because that was the economic system out in Navajo reservation. We raised the sheep for food, clothing, Navajo rugs, all those things. So, who would think that a bunch of sheep herders the 29 Marines, Navajos, youngsters, some of them were 16, 17, 18 they all lied about their age so they could get in the Marine Corps. In some cases, their parents have to sign for them. So, who would think these Navajos, they weren't intelligent, they weren't researchers, they weren't writers, but who would think a bunch of sheep herders would come up with a code that nobody ever broke that code and I guess nobody ever will. [ Applause ] I was thinking maybe only the sheep might find out. And the first Guadalcanal was the first island that the Marines landed on. By that time, the Japanese have taken all of Eastern Asia, Philippines, [inaudible], and Salmon Islands. Guadalcanal was one of the islands in Salmon Islands, they took that and there were only two Marine divisions at that time, first and second Marine divisions. And first 29 Marines were in those two divisions. During the process of the war Navajos keep coming being trained, the Marine Corps keep developing the visions. At the end of the war they finally had six Marine divisions, but Navajo code talkers were in every division of the Marine Corps and they were assigned to artillery, infantry, tanks, headquarters, some were assigned to Airforce, some were assigned out on the ships. So, Navajo communication was crisscrossing throughout these campaigns. And it got so significant, so true, so fast that then Iwo Jima the main communication was Navajo code, can you imagine that? I can. And this Navajo code was top-secret right from the training. If you study Navajo code today you don't take anything out that door, you don't take notes, there's no written lessons, everything that they say you put it in your head and it was top-secret at the training, top-secret during the war, top-secret 20 years after the war it was still top-secret. And we never knew the magnitude that we contributed to the war until 20 years after the war people start calling us hey you're a Navajo code talker come here we want to honor you. We thought gee what did we do. But you know that during the war we were all private first class, private first class throughout the war. The day we were being discharged they gave us another stripe so we were discharged as corporals in the United States Marine Corps. That stripe came without the money just the stripe. You know the Indians they're always at the bottom of the totem pole that's where we were. So, this is a summary of what happened. And just one item that I want to -- the first thing that the first 29 did was the officer put them in the room, he locked the door, and they said okay boys come out with a code. They didn't even know what code meant. He said use your language and come out with a code. They talk and they talk and they finally said we need an alphabet. So, they started the alphabet. Navajo is not a written language, we use what we call a phonetic alphabet using the American alphabet, numerical system and the alphabet. So, they came up with an alphabet, each letter had three different meanings. For instance, letter A there was three things [foreign language]. You know what that is right? Right [foreign language] is red ant, [foreign language] is apple, [foreign language] is X. The reason why they did that if a word has two A's you can't continue to say [foreign language] Japanese is going to break that code, they're very intelligent, very good at breaking the code. Soon after the war started they were breaking the American code this is why they put the Navajo language in there. And on Guadalcanal they had a problem with this code, when the Marines heard it over the radio they said hey, the Japanese have taken over our communication. And here was the Navajo code trying to translate messages. And the general didn't like the idea, so the complaints keep coming in so the general said, well let's test these Indians, he didn't say Navajo he keep saying Indians. So, they wrote a small message. The American code when it sent over, when it's received it's still in code, so it goes to a place where they decipher the code, goes to another officer. He checks to see if it's today's code because the American code changed everyday and then it goes to another officer to see if it's the right message. It goes to another officer to see if it's coming from the right place to the right place. Almost two hours that message got to the general. So, he says let's try the Indians. So, we send a message, the same message, when we send a message as it's coming over it's being decoded when the receiver receive it it's in English, so he hands it to the general two and a half minutes against the American code which is almost two hours. So, he said let's try another one and he tried it again the same thing happened the American code almost two hours, the Navajo code two and a half minutes. So, the general says well he says let's keep those damn Indians. Thank you very much. [ Applause ] >> Gary Rhay: So, the Marine Corps did an actual test under combat conditions as he said and found out that they were way faster and much more accurate than the other way of doing business, so that's the story. Now what I'd like to do is give you an opportunity to ask these gentlemen some questions, so does anybody have a question in the audience? >> If the gentlemen would honor I was wondering if one of the gentlemen could say to another gentleman there are tanks over the hill, we need air support. >> Sam Billison: There are tanks over the hill. You want me to tell you that? >> In the Navajo code tell your friend there are tanks over the hill we need air support. >> Sam Billison: I can't do that it's top secret. [ Applause ] Well the closest you can say is [foreign language]. What was the last word, air support? >> Send air support. >> Sam Billison: [Foreign language] that's the message you get it? >> Did he get it? >> Keith Little: You got it. >> Sam Billison: Good question. [ Applause ] >> Keith Little: What you do is write it down, you know somebody write it down and use the word over the hill. And when you say hill you say horse, sick written down in English it'll be like that. Over here we say horse sick [foreign language] that's ill, that's a hill and he says over the hill there's a tank or something. >> Gary Rhay: Next question. >> I'd like to thank the three of you for your service and helping us win that incredible war, I appreciate it. [ Applause ] My question stems from the movie that you probably saw a couple of years ago that came out it was called Windtalkers. Were any of you involved in helping the making or giving any consulting to that movie that was made? >> Sam Smith: When [inaudible] and Terrence Chen came to our meeting at one time in [inaudible] he presented us with that making a movie for us. We read the script and we started to take out plenty of things and this had happened some years ago, about 30 years ago with Ernest Greenberg Productions they brought us a script. And we did that, we went ahead and took out all the things, the funny parts that wouldn't sell the movie. So, this time I knew about it and I plead with the association to go ahead and pass it so we can have it made and use the money for us and we did get some money for a scholarship. So, I did have a part in that. I ask my comrades to go ahead and [inaudible]. >> Was consideration ever given to expand the role of the code talkers to the European theater [inaudible] the US Army because I recognize that in some battles in the Pacific US Army troops were involved. >> Keith Little: I could very well answer that, but I can't hear what you're saying, my hearing is not good. >> Gary Rhay: He wants to know if you ever thought about using it for the Army in Europe? >> Keith Little: Well were in the United States Marine Corps, but we were not thinking of the Army. I guess the Army could have used it if they wanted to. >> Gary Rhay: The short answer for the Army is no. >> Sam Smith: I understood that it was first presented to the Army general and the Army general said what the hell those Indians going to do, so they took it to Marine Corps general who in turn accepted to try this language. >> Excuse me even though in my accent I am interested to know reading the book about you that you had problem with American soldier in front line they were thinking that you are Japanese [inaudible]. My question is, did anybody of you was captured by Japanese [inaudible] they detected your language? >> Sam Billison: On Guadalcanal one of the problems was that you know that most Navajos are short, they're dark complexion, black hair, some of them kind of have slant eyes and they were mistaken for Japanese and they were thrown in the brig. But fortunately, they weren't killed or anything because they sent a code talker to the brig and they talk Navajo to them and they tell him no he's a Navajo code talker get him out of there we need him. So, but at the enemy never captured any, there was no Navajo that was captured. There was an Army Navajo that was captured on the Philippines islands at Bataan, they took him to Japan and they interrogated him, took all his clothes off it was in the wintertime, his feet were frozen to the pavement, he had no clothes on, and was given the message that said tell us what this message says and he tell them exactly what it says. And he says it's Navajo and this is what it says and it didn't make any sense. Just like Mr. Little said hill would be [foreign language] which is H when you spell out the alphabet H is horse. So, [inaudible] is ill I-L-L so combine horse, ill [foreign language] that makes hill right, right. So, they took this guy and he told them it's Navajo and this is what it says and eventually they gave up on him, put him back in prison. When the war was over he came back, he came back to Tuba City and some of the code talkers talked to him they know him and he told the code talkers that I don't like the code talkers they put me in trouble. Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Sam Smith: Hello, I have an older brother that was in the Army Airforce and he got shot down. >> Is this mic on? My mic's on. Check, check. >> Sam Smith: Where was I? I had an older brother that was in the Army Airforce and he got shot down over the Philippines during the time we were in the Pacific and he told me one time when he found out I was a code talker and said that they took him, when they found out he was a Navajo they took him to the radio room. Over there they put a wire around his head with a tourniquet on the side and they tried to -- he did copy everything that was said over the air and they keep turning the whatever until he pass out. But he said he never could broke the level code those years. He didn't tell me much about that just a little bit, two years later he died. >> I'm wondering if the code talkers could tell us of the moments of which they were most proud during their service. >> Sam Billison: There were two things I was most proud of. One was defeat of the Japanese military. [ Applause ] We took Iwo Jima and I wanted them to give it to the Indians, but they gave it back to Japan. The second most important thing that I really enjoyed was the GI bill, the Marines gave me 3 years and 10 months of GI bills that I can use to go to school and I used every bit of it. If I didn't have that GI bill I'd still be herding sheep, thank you. [ Applause ] >> Sam Smith: For me it was getting promoted by my grandfather because as a Navajo going to war I was blessed with a ceremony by my grandpa. And the night he was going to bless me to go to war he reached over and touched my arm and he said grandson you're still a pup, you haven't got a coyote pup he said and I didn't know what it was coyote pup. So, I told him that's all right grandpa there are probably some on the way I could catch. Here the coyote pup and the Navajo language is like you people talk to your son about birds and bees. So, when I got discharged I came home and my father was home and he did some lesson things for me before I could hug and shake my hands with my relatives. And that night my grandpa the same one came again to bless me and shoed away all the bad things that I have gathered overseas and this time he said grandson you are now a man he told me and a warrior, so I got promoted by my grandfather. Him and his brother, another grand -- they ask me question [inaudible] and I have to tell them everything I did while I was in the service. And after all that talking third degree they went and shoe away all the bad things that I had brought home and that was, I was very proud of that. Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Keith Little: About the question what was you the most proudest of. I suppose I didn't have any, but I think that the Navajo code as it was developed or devised in a way that even our own people did not understand. So, applying it in battle is something that kind of makes you feel like that you're doing something for your country anyway. You know we are tied to the land and the say that we were created in the South Western United States, a land selected by the holy people. So, our spiritual and cultural ties are to that land and on it our people live, the way we live, white people say we're poor, but that's a way of life. Because people we do what we like to do and they were not starving, although they -- it's just a way of life that they live and the mainstream American don't understand it when you see when they look at [inaudible] with no water, no running water, no facilities of any kind they say that's a poor way, that's poverty. But in our way, that's a way of life. So, you feel like that you're protecting something, you know, the love of your land, protection of your land, and your spiritual way of understanding that you are a product of the earth that you live on. So that I think is the most important thing, value that I purposely try to see that my people will be free like we talk about the freedom. And a lot of people talk about it and they don't understand it, but when you live it it's another thing. Thank you. >> Gary Rhay: That's all we have time for today. If you are a veteran of any conflict you should tell your story for this program and if you know a veteran you should encourage them. And pleas take a minute and join me in thanking not only these gentlemen, but all who serve the country [inaudible]. [ Applause ] >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress, visit us at LOC.gov.