>> From the Library of Congress in Washington DC. >>Cdr. Dave Winkler: Okay. Good morning. Well I guess good afternoon everybody. My name is Dave Winkler. I am a historian with the Naval Historical Foundation here in Washington at the Washington Navy Yard. And I'm a volunteer with the Library of Congress Veteran's History Project, and I'm glad you're all here today. This is going to be a very interesting session because we're going to have a conversation with some real Americans talking about how they contributed to the war effort in the Pacific with the Marine Corps. We have Keith Little, and Samuel Smith, and we have Sam Billison. I understand he's on the 14th Street Bridge tied up behind bunch of Rolling Thunder Motorcycles on his way in. So hopefully he'll be joining us later in the conversation. What we're here to talk about is the Navajo Code Talkers, which is one of the interesting stories of the Second World War. Basically after Pearl Harbor there was this fellow by the name of Philip Johnston. He was a son of a missionary who had grown up, and on the Navajo reservation, and spent about 24 years there. Well, in February 1942 Johnston approached Major General Fogal [assumed spelling] who was the commanding general of the Amphibious Forces Pacific, and he says, you know, "I have an idea. I have an idea that can help us win the war." What we have - because he was familiar with the Navajo language, he thought that would be a very good means of communications, secure communications between Marine forces to expedite, you know, the tactical situations in combat and to save lives. So he pitched this idea, and the general probably was like - I don't know if he was from Missouri, but he said, "Show me." So what he did is he got these - there were these four Navajos who lived in the Los Angeles area, and on February 28th, 19, 42, they did this - they staged this demonstration. And I'm guessing the demonstration probably was something like this where would hand of the Navajos a message, something like this. >> Okay. >>Cdr. Dave Winkler: And could you translate that to Sam Smith? Yeah, go ahead. >> Keith Little: My name is Keith Little. I'm a Navajo Code Talker, and I live in Crystal, New Mexico, but originally I was raised in western part of the Navajo nation in Arizona. I have a [inaudible] in New Mexico, so that keeps me grounded there. Also I serve in the Marine Corps from May 19 43 to November 27, 1945. And today I'm going to mention, we talk about the Navajo Code Talkers a lot, and a lot of people ask who are the Navajo Code Talkers? What did they do, and where did they come from? So origination of the Navajo Code Talkers, and why they were originated is something that I'm going to talk about today. And immediately after December the 7, 1941 the Japanese were very successful in capturing, and occupy a lot of land in the South East Asia, and some into China. Of course we know they invaded Philippine, and they landed on the Wake Island, and Guam, so by the first month of the war and they were everywhere. And in the Southeast Asia, and the South Pacific, and by April 1942 they occupied a lot of Southeast Asia. A lot of our garrison and Philippines who were captured and became prisoners of war, and quite a few Navajo boys were in that garrison in Philippines. They were the first one to be drafted into the - I guess they were - a lot of them were members of the Mexico National Guard, so they wound up in Philippine with 200 coast artillery. And some of those were my friends. They're older friends, but I associated with them a lot, and when I first saw them in Army uniform they look pretty sharp and they looked good, so I wanted to enlist in the Army also. But I was really young at that time. In 1941 I was only 15 years old, and 1942 I was a 16 year old, but I was not aware of United States Marine Corps prior to 1942, the middle of 1942. And that story goes back to about the Navajo Code Talkers. How did they get into the war? And it starts with a fellow named Phillip Johnston that he lived in Los Angeles, a civil engineer. And he was also [inaudible] his parents. He lived on Navajo reservation. He had a missionary parents, so he was raised with a Navajo playmates, and he knew how to talk Navajo. Like we say "White man's Navajo heavy accent." [ Laughs ] So anyway, he knew about the Navajos, how complex their language is. It's hard to learn for a non Navajo to learn. So he and a bunch of Navajos were working in Los Angeles in defense jobs. He gathered a few of them up and then run down to San Diego, and come before a communication commander and showed them how to Navajo language could be used as a code. And the reason for that, one of the reason is that some of the American Indian, the army had been used in World War I, and he knew about it. Being associated with the Navajo of course they became very interested with him. So he recommended, that way he demonstrated how it's going to work, how it should work, and convince the Marine Corps commanders to at least try out. So the Marine Corps from San Diego sent the Marine recruiters to Navajo land, and there they set up their recruiting station somewhere around a window rock, [inaudible] and visited [inaudible] and some of the schools on the reservation. But I don't know why they did not come to the school that I was attending. I would have been very interested, but that's one of the reason that I had not heard of the United States Marine Corps up to that time. Now, this was in March 1940, it was happening. So when they were signing up Navajo men for a potential communication specialists they call them communication specialist. That term Navajo Code Talker had not been determined yet. So they went, and they said - it is said that they recruited or that over 600 men signed up. I don't know how many days they were on the reservation, but according to the stories that I read they had over 600 people. Some of them even to come to the recruiting station carrying their 22 rifles. So that is the beginning, and so the requests, the Marine Corps themselves they wanted 200. And that's the way the request was made to the commander. And when they received the authorization back they told them they only get 30 for a trial project. So meanwhile the 30, some of the potential communication specialists were already selected, so that 30 was picked out. On departure only 29 showed up. One didn't show up. So they sent them to San Diego, crew depot. They went through boot camp with flying colors, because they will physically fit, and they were an unusual platoon. The first platoon to ever Native American in particular, Navajos, they were made up one platoon. I think it's 382nd Platoon during that time. When they finished their boot camp they were shipped on up to Camp Elliot. There they were given a workroom, a classroom. They said that the building had steel barred windows. I don't know if that's true or not, but that is the way the story goes. And there they were given a pamphlet military words, like this guy has. All the words that are used in battlefield. In other words, battlefield language. And names of all the weapons that are used, and the names of the units, and even the names of the countries around the world. Now, they were told to give it a Navajo word for each one of these words, but they went a little further, so and devised a code so that it is a Navajo code. Not a regular Navajo language, just a code like I think they give terms to the weapons that are used like a machine gun, [code language] something like that, you know. Fast shooter, fast shooting gun, and then such terms as airplanes. A fighter plane is a humming bird [code language]. And then grenades as a potatoes. Eggs as bombs. All the Navajo. So when you're sending a message and sent for supplies, if they're grenades included, they will be potatoes. So they devised these in such a way that it will be confusing to anyone that would try to break it. So that's the way the first - also the alphabet. The ordinary alphabet has 26 letters, but they come up with 46, I think it is. And some of the most commonly used were assigned three code words. Like the letter A, it has three words that indicates April. The letter a says apple in Navajo term for apple, and an X [code language]. These were Navajo coded words for the letter A. So when you're spelling a letter you don't repeat A the second time. You use another letter. So that is the way it is. Or in spelling out a word in Navajo, if there is two letters, like an E following each other. Now the letter E had three also. Ear, I, and Elk, so when you're spelling a word out you say - when two letters follow each other you say [code language] like that. Two - an A following each other. This is the way it would turn out if you write it down the way it's said, but it is like for letter E, like [inaudible] he'll say [code language]. So that's the way that the word was created. So it's rather very much confusing if you write the letter down. But anyway, that is how the first 29 Marines that were recruited on the Navajo reservation created the code. Very devised in such a way that it is schemed to fool somebody, the enemy. And the reason it was done is that the Japanese had also broken our American code, and we were, the United States I guess were trying to come up with some form of communication where they can send messages freely without interference, and Navajo code became that - replaced that original the codes, the natural codes that were used by the military. So while they were - when it was all done that's how the Navajo code was created. Navajo Code Talkers. So the first group was sent to South Pacific. >>Cdr. Dave Winkler: And can I pick it up from here, because that's an excellent overview of how the code came about. There were some things that I learned here that, first of all, there were Navajos who are captured by the Japanese in the Philippines, so the Japanese had access to the Navajo language, which is an unwritten language. So what these 29 folks had to do is they had to create a code within the language, so that it couldn't even be deciphered by Navajos. So that was a, you know, a very clever accomplishment. And then as you mentioned, your folks are put out into the field of battle. Now I'd like to do is give Sam Smith, and Sam Billison an opportunity. First of all, I got to ask the question, and you answered it really why to join the Marine Corps. Could you talk a little bit about what motivated you to join the marines? And then could you talk a little bit about that training you had up at Camp Elliot in going into the field? So -- >> Sam Billison: [Code language]. Everybody say [code language]. >> [Code language] >> Sam Billison: You just broke the code. [ Laughs ] >> Sam Billison: The way I enlisted in the Marine Corps was that in 1943 I was in high school, and they had captions in the Albuquerque Journal, and the radio, KOB. They always have a short sentence there. The few, the brave, the Marines, and I always wanted to be one of those when I was in high school. And then to make it worse, John Wayne was making some Marine pictures. It really made me want to go there. So I enlisted when I was in - it was in April of senior year, and the recruiter told me to wait, finish your high school, get your diploma, and then we'll come and get you. Sure enough, on graduation day I looked over there, there are two marines sitting over there. [ Laughs ] In their Marine blues. So I knew they were waiting for me. There were three of us. Samuel Smith was one of them. And then the other guy was Virgil Kirk. He didn't join the code talkers. He went with the Air Force, I think. And anyway they took us to Santa Fe. We passed the physical, and they shipped me to San Diego right away. I don't know what they did with these other two, and I got into boot camp, went through there like all the marines. And I really enjoyed the boot camp, because I was physically in shape, because I played football, basketball, baseball, and track. And a lot of our guys were falling down, because in May, the latter part in May it was very hot in San Diego. [Inaudible] was [inaudible] and running, and some guys were just falling over, but I really enjoyed all that obstacle courses. And a lot of boys thought I was crazy, but I really enjoyed the boot camp. And after that there was an officer. He asked me, "Hey, Chief, are you an Indian?" I said, "No sir. I'm a Navajo." So he said, "Oh good. Do you speak Navajo? "Yes, sir." "Do you understand Navajo? "Yes, sir. And this other guy was with me in the platoon, also a Navajo. He was standing right beside me. Officer said, "How about you, Chief?" He says, "Me too." [ Laughs ] So the officer said, "Get your sea bags, throw it in the jeep. I'll take you to Oceanside." So, gee, what's he going to do with us at Oceanside? I didn't know that was a name of a town. So in Oceanside there is a big brand new marine camp, great big barracks. And we drove in front of one of the barracks, and there's all these young Navajos studying. I guess they were studying code, and I thought, "Gee," I thought, "I just came from reservation, I don't want to be with these Navajos. I want to be with the marines." [ Laughs ] So we stopped there, and we registered, and we started studying the code. The code was very difficult, because it was quoted - it was Navajo language, but it was quoted. So, but after you learn it, it was easy. A lot of Navajos didn't pass that code. A lot of them had to take it over two or three times to qualify. And out of all those Navajos that come in every year, every summer, only 421 qualified to be code talkers. And that's how many we had during the war. And so it was easy after you learned it, because it just came in three areas. Three phase. Anything that flew were named after different types of birds. Anything on the ground were named after those things that are on the ground, like weapons, and machines, and personnel, and all this. And anything that float or submerged were named after fish. So it was just in three areas when the [inaudible] is coming over if they say, "city," which is bird, you know, it's some kind of an airplane. And if they said something on the ground, like he mentioned a yazzy. I think a yazzy was bomb. And if he says fish [inaudible] that's some kind of a ship, so you notice right away what area that code belongs. So, but during the process of teaching, we're learning, it was top secret. You couldn't take notes. There was nothing in writing. Everything was verbal. You just put it in your head, and try to keep it there. And then you can't go outside and talk about it. Everything stays in here. You can't go to Los Angeles. You have a couple beers and tell your girlfriend, "Hey, is a code, you know, it goes like this." You can't do that. So, and then during the war it was top secret. Only four people knew about that code. The officer the one to send the message, and the officer that receives the message. And the code talker sends the message and receives the message. When they send the code only those two Navajo Code Talkers know about it. Once they send it, they don't talk about it. It's put away somewhere, and you don't gossip about it. And I guess you [inaudible] if you talk about it. So once you send it, that's the end of it. So and then the [inaudible] requirements to join the Marines were, one was they ask you, "Do you know how to swim?" One of them, do you know how to swim? The Navajo boys said, "Oh yeah, I know how to swim." When they get, you know, there's no water on the reservation. [ Laughs ] And during the boot camp there's a day that they called qualification. You qualify for rifle, you qualify for [inaudible] courses, qualify for swimming, qualify to jump about 35, 40 feet off the tire into the water with full pack and stay alive. And one day the swimming came up. They lined us up. There were this other boy, myself, this Navajo boy. His name was Robert Malone. So we line up, blew the whistle. Then a dog peddle all the way cross. Halfway back I went down. San Diego has a real big Olympic size pool where you have to qualify. You go across, come back, cross come back. I think it's four times, and I went down, and I got to the bottom, pushed myself up, and looked at the lifesaver. He was looking the other way. I went down again, pushed myself up again. He's still looking the other way. [ Laughs ] The third time, the same thing. Still looking the other way. I thought, "Gee, four times I rarely came back up." He looked at me, and he says, "What's the matter, Chief?" I said, "Help." [ Laughs ] By that time my arms were limb, my legs were limb. I couldn't float. I was just standing straight up like this. And he jumped after me, and pulled me out. And the next day we had a big list. My name was on there. Casualty company, [inaudible]. [ Laughs ] I thought, "Gee, they would give me out of the marines." And so for two weeks they taught us how to swim, taught us different strokes, and we qualified eventually. Then I didn't have to worry about it. But to make it worse about I was with the fifth Marine Division. They did away with what they call Carson Raiders. The Carson Raiders were the top, you need a group in the South Pacific. And when they did away with that they established what they call reconnaissance company. So they asked for volunteers, and about five or six of Navajo Code Talkers we volunteered not knowing what it was. We know it was. Well, $50 more in paycheck. [ Laughs ] And come to find out you're supposed to know how to swim under water. And here we go again. We didn't know how to swim under water. So this time they had to take us out to the ocean. They get us a little ways in rubber boats. They dump us and they say, "swim under water back to shore." Oh, I thought they will get me out of the Marines yet, you know, but we qualified. That swimming was really a problem with us. So, but this is Navajo quote. They use it on Guadalcanal. That's the first time the Marines landed going back towards Tokyo. Guadalcanal is situated in the Solomon Islands, just a few miles from Australia. That's how far the Japanese have gone. They had taken all of Eastern Asia, Borneo, Philippines, and most of the Solomon Islands. So the first and second Marine division landed on Guadalcanal, and then some islands in Solomon. They took all those, and, but on Guadalcanal they had a little problem. They didn't - the Marines didn't know about the code, so they heard this over the radio, and they start complaining to the officer, "Say the Japanese are taking over our communication," and here was Navajo code. So the more complaints coming in, finally the General said, "Oh, let's test these Indians." They would give us a problem. So they wrote a small message, combat message. And the United States Marines sent the message. When they send a message, when they receive it, it's still in code. It goes to an officer to decipher it. It goes to an officer to see if it's today's code, to see if it's a correct code. Then another one to see it's coming from the right place to the right place, almost two hours before it got to the general. So he says, "Let's try the Indians." When the Navajos send the code it's being deciphered as coming over the air. When the receiver gets it, it's in English. So he hands it to the general two and half minutes. So the general said, "Geez, I don't believe this. Write another one. Let's try another one." Same thing happened. The American message almost two hours, the Navajo code, two and half minutes. Well, General says, "Let's keep those damn Indians. [ Laughs ] And some of these Navajos are short, you know, dark complected, black hair. Some of them have slant eyes a little bit. They were mistaken for Japanese, and they were thrown in the Brigg, and the Navajos had to go over there and talk to them and bail them out. "Hey, he's a Navajo, get him out. We need him." So, but this code got so significant so fast, so correct, that by Iwo Jima the main communication was Navajo code. Can you imagine that? [ Applause ] >>Cdr. Dave Winkler: Okay. Yeah. And that's a good place because I want to turn it over to Sam Smith, because I have a question for him. >> Sam Billison: Okay. >>Cdr. Dave Winkler: And what we're going to do is talk about Iwo Jima with the three of yous in the next question. >> Sam Billison: One more point. >>Cdr. Dave Winkler: Okay, go ahead. >> Sam Billison: Don't cut me off. [ Laughs ] [ Applause ] Now I forgot what I was going to say. [ Laughs ] >>Cdr. Dave Winkler: Sorry about that. >> Sam Billison: Anyway, they caught a Navajo on Philippines, but he fortunately he was in the Army. They took him to Tokyo. They took all his clothes off, put him out on the parade ground. His feet were frozen to the pavement. They kept drilling him. They said, "What does this message say?" And he tell them this is what it says. It's a Navajo language, and this is what it says. And it didn't make any sense. So they keep after him, they finally they give up on him. So they put him back in prison. Pretty soon the war was over. He came back, came back to Tuba City, and when we saw him over there, he said, "I don't like Navajo Code Talkers. You put me in trouble." [ Laughs ] So, but there's a lot of - we found out that the Navajo language was the most powerful, the most sacred, the most beautiful language. And I'm sure that all the native American languages are like that also. So we found out this was like that. And the Navajo Code Talkers we accept, acknowledge, and respect all the military branches of the United States armed forces. God bless you. God bless America. [ Applause ] >>Cdr. Dave Winkler: What I want to ask - one of the ironies here is that before the war there was an effort. I guess to eliminate the Navajo language, or you're not supposed to talk Navajo in school, and such. And here's the Navajo language basically saves hundreds of lives during World War II. What I wanted to do is ask Samuel Smith a little bit about that, and then talk about how the code talkers were accepted amongst the marines in the field. And then I'd like you to talk about Iwo Jima, and then we'll have the other two gents talk about their experiences at Iwo Jima, because, and talk about how the code worked actually in combat situations. So could you take it? [ Applause ] >> Sam Smith: Thank you. [Applause] Hello fellow citizens. Before I went to war I lied about my age too to get in the Marine Corps, because I didn't like the way Pearl Harbor was attacked. Sneak attack Sunday morning, and I'm in the Arizona in the USS Arizona was sunk over there, still under water. Those two and some other things that made me angry, so I decided to get in and get even. When I was only 15 when that happened. So I worked on it. Before that my grandparents, and my parents got me in the condition to be a marine. When I was born they gave me [inaudible] name, so I had to be a warrior, and I didn't know that that would come about shortly, but that's what happened. I'd lied about my age. Like he said, we went down to Albuquerque recruiting office. And I was in the 11th grade, and him and the judge were accepted me. I went back outside, I thought about it, I felt bad about it. So I went back inside and I told the recruiter that I had made a mistake in my birth year. So I lowered it. And he said, "By golly, you're right." [ Laughs ] And so my discharge paper it says, "Inducted discharge enlisted," before I was sworn in. And that's the way it's written on my discharge paper, and I have to deal with two different birth years. My life today, I have a driver's license that is older. Then I have some other records that I have to deal with that are younger. So that's the way these are, and I never got it straightened up. But I did the Serb boot camp down San Diego, 13 weeks crash course how to kill. And when I was going down there I told my mother I got drafted. And she said, "Well, we can't do nothing about it, son, go." So my grandpa came one night to do some blessing on me to go serve in the combat. I knew there was killing. I knew I was going to get killed or something, but it didn't matter. What I'm going to do was important. And he went and touched my arm. He said, "Grandson, you're still a pup, and you haven't caught a coyote pup yet." And I said, "That's all right, Grandpa, I'll get some on the way." [ Laughs ] And I didn't know what he meant, but, you know, catching a coyote pup is in your term talking to your son about birds and bees. That's what it was. [ Laughs ] [ Applause ] And I wasn't going to catch some on the way. [ Laughs ] And so I went, I finished 13 weeks, earn some of the things that I'm wearing now. And at the end of the graduation they gave us an aptitude tests to be what we want to be in the Marine Corps. I wanted to fly because I wanted to get even with those sneak attackers. So I chose Air Wing. I wanted to be a pilot. I passed the aptitude test, but they came back and told me I don't have a diploma. And they're right. I had just finished 11th grade. So my next choice was artillery because that one will do a lot of damage, and I wanted to do that. By that time they found out I was on Navajo. I was different in color. So they came back and said, "Are you a Navajo?" I said, "Yes, sir." That's when they told me to go with them with my seed back up to Oceanside, Camp Pendleton. And I never knew about the Navajo Code Talker school, but I found out that's where it was to train to the communication. And we only did not learn just a Navajo code, we also took other training in case we had to learn the Morse code blinker panels [inaudible] and our own code. That's what we had to learn and memorize. So that happened, and then about four months or three months, they told us that they wanted to give us a test so we can get promoted to sergeant. And I did my best to make good grade. That only got me in the fourth Marine Division. No promotion. I was still PFC when I left. So I was placed with the General. I think his name was Smith or Schmidt that was in charge of fourth Marine Division at that time. Later Clifton B Cates [assumed spelling] took over. And I thought I had it made being next to the general back behind the lines. Nope, I was wrong. When I was with the general in the combat every once in awhile a group would come by, and they would want some volunteers, and I'm always at the end of their finger. [ Laughs ] And that's how I had some of the terrible experiences in a combat. The first combat we had was Marshall Islands [inaudible] spend about a week there and came back to Maui. Second biggest island in Honolulu group. That's where we practice with the killing action, wounded in action. And all of the Navajo Code Talkers were brought up from regiments and battalions to the division headquarters where we could study our Navajo code. And if we had a problem in combat, that was where we made the correction or make it so that it can be faster. And so I'm like that after we finish with that one, when we're ready to go into combat or at least Navajo Code Talkers were put back down to the respective position around the regiments battalion and the companies all the way up to front echelon. They were kind of put around like I was to wherever they would be needed, wherever the Navajo code would be needed. That's how the Marine Corps operate the Navajo Code Talkers. So we hit the side pen. I don't remember the dates, but we were there about three weeks. I think we lost one code talker, and we rest there about a week, regroup, and go down south to [inaudible] which when we took care of it right away, because the Japanese were during the [inaudible] attack and all we did was pick them up. And after that we went back to Maui and practiced with the replacements. Replacements were always waiting or they were always over there waiting for us. And we'd get down to business right away to do the maneuvers, skirmishes. Again, all the Navajo Code Talkers come up to the division headquarters to train, practice, again on the code. And usually we had problems, so we correct those, and so we can use it. At that time myself, and my assistant were flown over to Pearl Harbor, and there I found other instructors from other Marine Corps Division that were brought from other islands, and they had same problem we had. So we put all the books together, made it one book, and took it back to our division to learn that one, and get ready. Here hear it was. Iwo Jima. That's where the night before attack at the briefing they said we would take the island in one week, and it took us one week to get off the beach. So that's how we worked, and on that island we found out that there was too many [inaudible] under the land. I don't know how many on top of each other. The flamethrower tank went in and burned them out and covered those caves, but one or two days later they would dig themselves out, and we would be attacked from behind. That's how it took so long to get that island secured. We were there about 30 some days, and before we finished getting the whole island, a flying fortress coming back from Japan landed there. There was two airfields. One of those big ones landed there. That was the purpose of getting the island so that the Berman planes coming back run short of gas, that is where they were to live. So that was the reason for getting that island back, and it cost too much, a lot to get it back. And somewhere during my battle on the island somewhere or maybe some other marine division, some where I had an older brother that was in the Army Air Force, and he was shot down over Philippines, and he became a prisoner. And he told me after the coup was declassified in 1968. After that he approached me and told me what happened to him. That the Japanese took him to a radio room, and put a wire around his head with a tourniquet, keep twisting until he passed out. And he was a copying everything we said. The messages that we said, he said he couldn't put it together to make sense. He did copy everything they said, but it's just the trick that we try to explain. The trick was so unique that it's hard to explain. We take a long time to really explain it right. But we are very proud to have tricked them, and to have done what we did to shorten the war, save lot of lives. And -- [ Applause ] Wait. I'm not through yet. To my left is Dr. Samuel Billison. To my right Mr. Keith Little, he's the treasurer, and he is the president of the association, and I keep them there. [ Laughs and applause ] >>Cdr. Dave Winkler: I would have loved to do the Phil Donahue thing where I go out in the audience and say ask a question, but unfortunately we're out of time. But I would like to do though is afterwards is have these gentlemen off to the side, and if you have some questions for them feel free. I'm sure they'll be happy to spend some time with you. On behalf of the Library of Congress Veteran's History Project. Thank you so much. And let's give these gentlemen a round of applause. [ Applause ] >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.