>> From the Library of
Congress in Washington DC.
[ Pause ]
>> Good afternoon.
We are here with pianist, composer,
arranger, producer, Allen Toussaint.
Allen, welcome to the
Library of Congress.
>> Thank you.
What a great place to be.
>> You know, there's not a book
written about you yet so I want
to establish some basic facts.
Let us begin, tell us when
and where you were born.
>> I was born in New
Orleans, Louisiana, 1938.
>> And in which neighborhood
in New Orleans.
>> I came up in [inaudible]
town called it Carrollton
if you're not from the area.
Those of us who are
familiar with New Orleans,
[inaudible] town is fair to say.
>> Uh-huh.
Was there music around your house?
>> There was music
around my neighborhood.
And my father was a weekend
trumpet player before I was born
but by the time I came along
he was raising a family then
and was no longer an
active musician.
He worked on the railroad
for 40 years.
But I guess there was
music in the genes there.
My brother began playing
the guitar early
but he didn't keep it up at all.
My sister took piano lessons
for a very short while,
but I think she started
out with a bad teacher.
But I fell in love with
the instrument right away
and it was love at first touch.
>> Was there a piano in your house?
>> Well, it was brought to my
house for my sister to play.
It was given to her
by one of my aunts.
The ladies in my family thought
it was dignified for a young girl
to play the piano or violin
or something like that
so my sister was eight
years older than I
so they were sending
the piano there for her,
but as soon as it touched the
floor and I was able to walk over
and touch it, it was instant
gratification so I was hooked.
>> So what was your favorite
music when you were growing up?
>> Well, I heard a lot of
whatever was on the radio
which we heard a lots
of hillbilly music loads
of hillbilly before it was
called county and western,
boogie-woogie, lots of gospel.
>> Who were your favorite artists?
>> [Inaudible] Bradford
was great during that day.
Even the Sole Sisters were out a
little bit later than when I started
that I got around to that.
But I liked boogie-woogie a lot
and my mother used to listen
to classical music on Sundays.
She loved classical
music so I found myself,
I found classical music seeping into
my memory bank that, yeah how nice.
And when I started playing the piano
I thought all pianists could play
all piano things I didn't
know there were specialist
like blues players,
classical players.
So I thought all piano players
played everything I heard
on the piano except I hadn't
begun to play them all yet.
So I pursued everything
that I heard.
>> Were there piano players
that you tried to emulate?
>> Oh yes, all of them.
>> Yeah.
>> Yes. I especially liked, of
course, one of the biggest jokes
in my innocent childhood when I
first heard Professor Longhair
that just knocked my socks off.
>> Now, Roy Bird is
very special player.
>> Oh yes.
>> Tell us what you thought
was so special about him.
>> Well, it wasn't
business as usual as far
as the 1, 2, 3, 4, syncopation.
A lot of New Orleans music is loaded
with syncopation sparks
flying everywhere.
And not necessarily captivated
by [inaudible] you have
to go here and there.
Professor Longhair was dancing
to a different drummer also he had
some kind of Latin or some rhythms
from the island all mixed
up in there some sort of say
and some blues as I learned later
which was quite widespread
around New Orleans.
>> So did all the piano players
learn Professor Longhair tunes were
these standards?
>> Not all of them did but everyone
loved him and thought highly of him.
>> Did you learn his tunes?
>> Oh everything that
I heard him do I tried.
I didn't want to be like
him I wanted to be him.
He had already filled
that spot however.
Oh yes I learned everything and I
eagerly waited for the next thing
to come whatever record
was coming out next.
>> It's possible that there may be
people watching this or listening
to this that may be don't
know Professor Longhair,
could you maybe demonstrate what
it is about him or what it is
about his tunes that
you love so much.
>> Well, again, I say
off the beaten path
and also he had what I consider -- I
call him our Bach of rock, you know,
my Bach of rock if not ours --
because I consider some things he
came up with related to inventions
like you can take that one set of
rulements [phonetic] that he had
for a certain period and build a
whole career on that and then later
on he comes with something
else that is just as vibrant
and is not necessarily
an elaboration
on what he did before it was it
is something totally different.
>> Can you demonstrate
what you're talking about?
>> Well, some things like he mixed
up some semi rumba rhythms early.
[ Piano Music ]
>> And of course he
embellished on that.
[ Piano Music ]
>> And as you noticed just
then when it was time after.
[ Piano Music ]
>> Ordinary the times you would
go to the [inaudible] here
but he wasn't ready he had to still.
[ Piano Music ]
>> So he took that extra time
because he just wanted to hear
that so it wasn't about sticking
to the rules I played my full
measures and now it's time to go.
And I must say some of the
earlier blues musicians
who played harmonicas and
trees, guitars under the tree,
and the like, they
did some of that too.
Which I always found fascinating
because coming along you
sort of have to earn that.
>> I love how he sings also.
He has this little almost a yodel.
>> Professor Longhair, of course
he has the strangest yodel you've
ever heard.
Also he's the only one that will
ever for some reason feel the need
to jump an octave on one word
like he was singing in the night.
[ Singing ]
>> He would do something
like that, you know.
And I just -- that was so surprising
to me I just hadn't heard anyone
think that music needed to go
that way I just thought
that was fabulous.
>> How well did you know Fess?
>> Well, I'm glad to say that I got
to know him much better later on.
As a child coming up I didn't
get to meet him until I was 16
and I only saw him for
one day at a record hop
and he was playing a little
spinet piano which it was grateful
to see it was Fess
anyway but I would imagine
that Fess should have the
biggest and best that there is
and he was playing a very
humble little spinet piano
which is still Professor Longhair.
I saw him that one day then
I didn't see him for years.
Well, I didn't see him for a couple
of years let's say because I used
to go and buy records from One
Shop Record Shop on Rampart Street
when they were new records come out
and during those days when you went
into a record shop they played the
newest records out and let you hear
in case you wanted to buy them.
I was going in looking for Professor
Longhair and Ray Charles generally,
but I wanted a certain record
and they didn't have it out front
but they said it's in the
still room in the back.
Low and behold who
come out with a box
of those records Professor Longhair
was working as a stockroom boy.
And I was delighted to see him.
It didn't dawn on me
until years later
when someone said how do you felt
about him being a stockroom person,
I was just so glad to
see him I didn't care
under any circumstances I just saw
Professor Longhair so I was elated.
>> Now, so many people associate
Longhair and you and James Booker
and any number of others with the
New Orleans sound, can you tell just
from listening whether
somebody is from New Orleans?
>> Yes. However, if a person is a
good enough imitator I would know
that's the New Orleans
kind of thing.
Because I must say that even
in New Orleans there's some
who may do it better than others
the particular thing we may
be mentioning.
>> So when you're listening
what do you here
that says oh that's New Orleans?
>> I don't know.
I don't know.
>> Is it like an accent
when you're speaking?
>> I imagine so but I can't
intelligently answer that.
I'm sorry.
I wish I could that's
a very good question.
>> You are more or less self taught,
how do you learn to
written an arrange?
>> By mimicking records.
When I would sit and learn to play
a recording or new song whatever was
out on the radio I would listen
to the piano parts as well
as the base the trombone
and everything
and like I said my sister
took lessons really early on
and though she didn't stick
with it she did learn the ABC's
and early theory and she was
the first one that was able
to tell me this E on the piano
here is there on the page and, etc,
etc. So I started learning
to spell that way.
As far as writing and arranging
that comes from mimicking records
and transcribing those
arraignments off the recordings.
>> How about the act
of making records,
you were one of the great producers.
>> Well, I began playing as a side
man in the studio on recording
since I could play such
a wide variety of styles.
Like I say I thought everyone
played all styles I was just trying
to catch up really.
But I was known for being able
to play many different styles
and I was called into the studio to
play sometimes like another style
in particular or just
because the people knew
that I would be playing
the music of the day.
>> So Dave Bartholomew asked you to
play like Fats Domino at one point.
>> Yes, I must say
that that was a bit
after I had already been a
session player in the studio,
but that really I guess
was a milestone for me
when Dave Bartholomew called me
into play like Fats would play.
That -- I was taken a
bit more seriously then.
In fact, I took me a little
more seriously then as well;
but I'm glad that it
worked out as it did and one
of the highest compliments in
my life was Fats told me, Allen,
I couldn't tell whether that was
me or you and that was highly paid.
>> Speaking of getting paid,
you're on so many recordings
as either a pianist
or as the composer
or as producer did you have ever
have problems getting royalties?
>> Problems getting royalties.
Well, fortunately I got on with
a record company earlier on
and I was a standard
person with them.
>> Is this Minit Records?
>> Yes. When I got with
Minit Records that was
like a parent company over the
activity that I was involved with.
So that saved me from a
multitude of headaches I'm sure.
So there has been some tunes
that slipped through the cracks,
but that was just the
university of that period.
Sometimes the way things
just operate
when record business
wasn't taken as seriously
as it is there were all kinds
of things that people were doing
to get records recorded and
sometimes they were taking some
of the writer's royalties to
put it towards someone else
who they couldn't pay up front
as much as they would have.
And I know that may be
considered frowned on now,
it would be considered
frowned on now,
and even though it's not a good
practice I've never done it
but I know that used to happen.
But I don't ever consider that any
big bad wolf, it was the evolution
of what we do and that
was just the period.
But it got things done.
>> So you caught on quick.
Did you always have
your own publishing?
>> Well, I didn't always
have my own publishing, no.
The company I was with, Minit, had
a publishing company at the time
which was called Tune Cal [phonetic]
and maybe another company or so.
So since I was with Minit Records
I was under Tune Cal publishing.
So, no, I didn't own
my own publishing,
but I'm glad to say it was
close enough in the same house
under the same roof
with the record company
that I felt comfortable with it.
>> Now another mystery is that some
of your great songs were copyrighted
under your mother's name
Naomi Nevel [phonetic].
>> My mother's maiden name, yes.
>> Why was that?
Why did you choose to do that?
>> Well, there was a period when
I was about to change companies.
It was about to change from one
publishing company to another
and until they got through shipping
contracts from one set of contracts
from this desk to the next office
and to the next attorney
I didn't want the things
that I was doing during that present
period to be caught up in that,
not knowing the outcome so I used a
pseudonym and Naomi Nevels sounded
like the most appropriate.
I even used my father's
name once Clarence Toussaint
but that's far enough removed
to be considered a pseudonym.
So my mother's maiden name
was a perfect candidate.
>> So some of your
earliest work as a leader is
under the name Al Toussaint
was that you're idea
or was there a producer
there who decided to do that?
>> That was not my idea.
The reason -- that was, Danny
Kessler who was a talent scout
who first recorded the
wild sounds of New Orleans
which was featuring me
as an instrumentalist he thought
the name t-o-u-s-s-a-i-n-t looked a
little to ritzy or to classical.
So he thought it would be easier to
pronounce and it would look better
if it was Al Toussaint
and that was fine with me.
>> So I'm assuming that in the late
50s early 60s when you're really
in full flower there, the musicians
union in New Orleans was segregated.
>> Oh, yes.
>> How much did races
mix on the bandstand
or after hours among musicians?
>> Well, with the recording
industry it didn't matter at all
because we were busy we had
integrated that right away.
And clubs, there were clubs that
of course you wasn't able to go
and socialize in certain
of the clubs,
but people in the other clubs were
able to socialize in our clubs
and many times they would.
>> So you couldn't go to white
clubs but whites could go to --
>> Yes, yes.
>> Mixed clubs?
>> And that was -- and even though
that sounds ludicrous at the moment
at the time we were having
such a good time we hadn't noticed
whether anything needed to be done
about anything because we were
surrounded by everything we liked,
loved, where we wanted to be, where
we wanted to eat, what we wanted
to do and as far as the musicians,
musicians integrated themselves
long before then any way.
>> And when did the
union become integrated?
>> I'm not sure we were 496
and the white union was 174
so it became 174, 496
that was somewhere
in the 60s I guess somewhere there.
>> How much of the success of
your early recordings was due
to the song, the leader or
singer, or the backing musicians?
>> Oh that's a toughy.
I must say that I think an artist
has a lot to do with what's going
to take place and you put a lot of
things around an artist but it has
to be in the artist if
he's goes to sustain.
For instance, [inaudible] thought
he was a hit before anyone else
and if no one else would
have he would have gone
to his grave knowing he was a hit.
So he had that personality and
when a person is that strong
about front stage center it's
hard to hold a good man down.
About other things, sometimes a
song can be, and I can restrict it
to just my own I have to put
on the thinking cap to say,
sometimes a song is so good who
ever got it first was fortunate.
Sometimes that can be the case
that the song is just so good
on its own you just
like it by anybody
and fortunately you
heard that first.
>> Give us an example of that kind
of song, which song comes to mind?
>> [Inaudible] even though I know we
heard it by certain people the way
that song was it didn't matter much
who was singing the
lead the way it went.
Some of the things Fess
sang it needed to be Fess.
>> Well, there are
certain songs of yours like
"Mother-in-law", it got that hook.
>> Well, thank you.
>> You have a great singer,
yes, but there's nothing
like having a great hook.
>> Well, Dennis Spellman was
the one who sang that hook.
And even though I wrote
the song after it came out
and made the hit [inaudible]
and all he took the hook very
seriously Denny says the only reason
why it had a chance in the world was
because of the way he sang the hook
which I found joyous, I enjoy it.
>> Now, songs like "Mother-in-law"
or "Ya Ya" or so many
of these other great
songs that you've written,
how much did you have to coach
the musicians in the studio?
I mean you have concept and then
how different is the final result?
>> I must say that I was
quite rigid back then.
Whatever I had imagined it
to be if it was days before
or weeks before that's what I went
into get and I usually got that.
To my better or to my worse
I got what I was looking for.
And I say that because later on I
learned a little about serendipity
that I didn't know in the beginning
which is sometimes a
little gift comes through,
but in the earlier days I was
going at something in particular
and I pursued it until
that happened.
>> So you can be tough or
should we say disciplined?
>> Either one, yes, before
I had enough sense to know
that people were first, not music.
>> Tell me what are some of your
favorite versions of your own songs?
Were they the hits?
>> Well, not always.
Maybe I'd say aside from
[inaudible] when he sang
"Performance" Koby
Gray did a version
of "Performance" I
liked that very much.
You mean aside from the ones that
I recorded on to people like?
>> Yeah.
>> Okay. I like, every get out of my
life woman I've ever heard including
Joe Williams which I thought
was really far out to hear
such a [inaudible] voice singing get
out of my life woman
[inaudible], yes.
>> So as a song writer, when you
listen to a song what do you hear,
what do you listen for,
what makes a good song?
>> When I listen to one I've
already written or one I'm writing?
>> Either one.
>> Well, songs that's already
written I tried to enjoy them
as if I was wasn't a musician,
which is not easy to do
because as a musician as soon as you
hear something a part of you begins
to try to learn it and you
would like to just enjoy.
Like [inaudible] new record
recording I just like that
to enjoy I don't need to learn it.
I would like to say that I hear
just like I would like to hear more
like a non-musician I think is
very special to not be involved
in inner workings to
hear the beauty of it
without being a constructionist
a construction worker.
>> So how do you do
that, how do you detach?
>> It's not easy, it's not easy.
But there's a lot of
music out there.
It's not easy when you're busy,
busy like I'm so busy working
on materials but there's enough
music to get lost in it out there,
if you will, but it's
not easy for a musician.
>> Do you carefully hone every song
or does it come to you realized
in your head from the beginning.
>> Oh no, it comes
in parts sometimes.
Sometimes like a plot, like you'll
see two people two blocks away
talking to each other and the way
they move towards each other it may
stimulate some kind of situation
and it may not be what
they're talking about,
but it may trigger a little
plot just a couple of words.
>> So once you've got
your structure in place --
>> A plot.
>> And the story, the art, whatever
you want to call it, how do you know
when you're done, do
you keep going back
and revising your work,
do you edit your work?
>> If you don't go in and record
it you might do that forever, yes.
But at some point you
have to lay it down.
But some things pretty much
says when they're through
and others will never be through.
Some things you may
spend a lot of time on it
and it just don't work you
can force it but if it came
through inspiration and not
just out of your tool box
because you know how some things
just don't they don't really fit
together you can make
it work just because
but then you would have to say why.
>> I know you're a modest man.
You know how good your
sons are, but you're still
as a performer you're a modest man.
You're a good piano player,
really good vocalist,
you could have had a career
as a performer, as a star,
and yet you've chosen to remain in
the background, behind the scenes,
writing, arranging,
producing, why is that?
Most people have the ego
that wants to get out front.
>> Well, I don't have that.
And I find it quite rewarding to
be behind the scene in the way
that I have been and enjoy
it's quite a comfort zone,
it's like for one thing from
the very inception of it all
in a way you're playing God you're
building the world according to you
for the moment how you think
this artist should appeal
to that audience and what musician
should make this artist sound best
of this music and what song and
what highlight should you bring
out of this artist.
That's quite gratifying,
that's highly rewording,
and I mean before it
sells, just when it's
through if you got anywhere
near what you were looking for.
>> Financials aside how do you
measure the success of a song.
>> Well, financials
aside there's no way.
The success of a song as
far as quote on quote public
and what makes it a
success is how many it sells
and how many people say yes.
And I have to put it that way
because the writer can
feel quite differently
about that the success of a song.
One of my very best songs that I
feel was most successful as far
as me writing and it was better than
me was a song called "Transition"
that I wrote for Lou
Johnson and I don't know
if anyone one heard it but he and I.
>> Could you play a
little bit of that for us?
>> Probably not it
was quite involved.
But so I consider that
a very successful song
from the song writer me.
Sales wise nothing, maybe the worst.
>> Well, Ellington [phonetic]
talked about an artistic profit.
>> Okay.
>> Not just monetary.
>> Yes.
>> And then when everybody would
say what is best he would say,
no you rate tomatoes,
you don't rate artists.
>> Thank you, thank you.
>> So if I can change gears here.
What was your personal experience
with Katrina and the after math?
>> Well, Katrina I thought was
going to be storm as usual,
hurricanes as usual because
I've been through all of them
in New Orleans, even when
I was a very young child
and I remember they were all
named after ladies, after women,
because they just started adding
men name to them fairly recently.
But so I had been through all of
the hurricanes and knew them how,
you put your boards on your
windows and you number them
because you're going to
need them again next year,
you store them behind a garage
and this Katrina season
I nailed up my boards.
And the day before it hit I was
encouraged by several to at least
if you're not going to leave town
go check into a hotel and I did.
I checked into the Royal on Canal
and Bourbon and I stayed there
on the 4th floor until
the storm hit.
And the next morning I
went out and it looked
like a storm had been here,
but if it's going to be
like usual then a day or two we'll
go back, but of course we know
that the levies broke and
various other things happened
that was beyond hurricane.
So it wasn't business as usual.
So four days after the
storm I made it to New York.
>> What happened to your
house and your studio?
>> Well, the studio didn't make
it at all the studio looked
like it had been through a war zone.
Fortunately it has been taken over
by [inaudible] since I had been
out because my partner and I
had dissolved our relationship
in the studio years ago.
>> Is this Marshall Sehorn?
>> Yes, yes.
But it was lining dominate for quite
a while anyway but I had intended
to always go back and
do something there
but after Katrina it
didn't make it at all
and now it has become
something else.
My own house didn't
make it at all either.
And I've been shopping and shopping
but I've been in New Orleans
so sparingly that I haven't had
concentrated effort on shopping,
but as of very recent times I
have been able to spend more time
in New Orleans and I'm about to get
my living quarters back in order.
>> So what happened to all the
master tapes at the studio?
>> They got wiped out.
Yes.
>> That's tragic.
Well everything about
that hurricane is tragic.
>> Now, some of my own person
masters things I recorded were saved
because my son went in and
got some of those things
but of course there was a whole
lot more than what I just recorded
on me there, there
was all of [inaudible]
and Ramsey Lewis, Edward
Gale everyone.
>> So people -- it's said
that people change
with their environment.
So you've been more or less in
New York since the hurricane?
>> I've been based there.
But I've been traveling quite a
bit more than ever in my life.
[Cough] pardon me.
And I'm glad to say that though it
has not been my life it has been
quite interesting.
>> But how have you
changed since Katrina?
>> I hope I haven't.
>> You've carved out a lucrative
career wearing many hats
but the general public may not
know you as much as insiders
and musicians, is recognition
important to you?
>> Not to me personally, not for me.
I understand what it means
to the record industry
for whatever product you're selling
or for whatever you're selling
in life, but as for me the product
that I have been responsible
for if it sells by whoever I record
it that's plenty enough for me.
Plenty enough.
>> So as --
>> Mission accomplished
you might say.
>> What is your mission?
>> When I'm recording an artist
it's to try and get the very best
of that spirit to present a
highlight that many people
that translate too many people.
That's my mission when
I'm producing someone.
>> But in life what do
you think your mission is?
>> Oh heavens I just like to
play the piano, I like music,
I like constructing songs even
if I'm not going to record
that song even someone, if
there's not someone scheduled,
I like waking up and writing
and playing the piano.
>> Have you written a
song about writing songs?
>> Yes. For Wayne Cochran of all
people I wrote a song called,
"Hey a song make me a song,
don't make it to short,
don't make it too long, but try
and make it good enough
to be number one."
I mean that's pretty
arrogant, that is pretty cocky,
but when you're writing
you can take poetic license
and get away with that.
>> So as a song writer,
the producer, the arranger,
the composer, how do you
measure your own success?
>> Oh heavens.
I don't, if I was asked to and
wanted to come up with something,
by me knowing the inside story
I would try and take the 5th,
but I'm just not sure because when,
and I've had peaks and valleys
in my career for as how we're
doing, never how I'm doing but we're
and when things -- out of the hits
that anyone has there's always many
misses and being so involved I have
to not think what's the
effect of hit miss, hit miss,
because it can taunt you to
many different ways so I decided
to just take it all in stride
if you know what I mean.
>> I do. You do that very
well, take things in stride.
We were talking earlier
about rebuilding New Orleans
and you were stay saying
it's going to be all right.
>> Oh, yes.
Well, we're up for the task as well.
>> Since we only have
a moment or two left,
I wonder if you could
just play something
that expresses how you
feel about New Orleans.
>> These days that's pretty easy.
[ Music ]
>> So you know what it
means to miss New Orleans?
>> Oh, yes.
>> Allen Toussaint, thanks very
much for taking the time I hope
to continue this conversation
some day.
>> My pleasure.
>> Thank you.
>> This has been a
presentation of the Library
of Congress visit us at LLC.gov.