>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C.
[ Silence ]
>> I'd like to welcome you all to our afternoon session.
It is entitled Preserving the Past
and Embracing the Future: Cordel in an e-World.
And I will hand over the mic to Michael Neubert
who has graciously consented to moderate this session.
>> Good afternoon.
I'd like to welcome you to the first afternoon session today.
The Library of Congress and other libraries
in Cultural Heritage Institutions have been digitizing collection
materials for preservation
and access typically via the internet since the 1990s.
And archiving of websites for preservation as well
as access started sometime later.
Both of these activities present a variety
of what we can call challenges.
Some of those include development of standards and best practices
and also ensuring that intellectual property rights
of various parties are not infringed upon.
So this afternoon, we will hear two presentations that will look
at both digitalization and web archiving as tools primarily
for preservation or for preserving but also for providing access
to Cordel collection materials.   So we will have two speakers
who I will introduce before they speak right now.
The first speaker is Manuela Maia at the--
and Manuela is a professor of Archival Studies and the Director
of Libraries at the State University of Paraiba
which is in Northeastern Brazil.
The Cordel collection that she manages is the largest in the world
with about 10,000 titles.
And since 2009, she has had various projects
to develop both web application to manage those materials as well
as to have a work flow for,
and process for scanning the digital materials into a database.
So she will be presenting what seems to a case study look at her efforts
to preserve these fragile, ephemeral materials
which by their very nature cry out for preservation as well as dealing
with certain rights issues.
Then our second speaker is Debra McKern.
She is the Director of the Library of Congress, Rio de Janeiro Office
and she has been there since 2008.
And before that, she had various management positions in the area
of preservation of library materials both at the library of--
not both, at the Library of Congress and that Emory University
as well as Indiana University.
She's also taught graduate level preservation courses.
The library's Rio office has spent much
of the last 35 years gathering Cordel materials so that we now have
in Folklife Center more than 9,000 titles.
The Cordel Literature it can be argued represents a pre-digital form
of the kind of communication that we now see with Twitter and archives
and therefore, it's kind of a full circle that we now have an attempt
that the producers of this literature are moving
to the internet to present that information
and in turn it becomes necessary to preserved it.
So Debra will be talking about the complexities and challenges
of acquiring if you will
and preserving this born digital Cordel materials.
So first we will hear from Manuela,
who by the way will be speaking in Portuguese.
>> Good afternoon everyone.
I feel very honored to participate in this event where I explain
that I will do my presentation in Portuguese, okay?
[ Foreign Language ]   In this process the--
[ Foreign Language ]   [ Applause ]
>> While he is loading mine let me fix this.
I was ready this morning to cede all of my time to the musical sessions
so we could continue to listen to Cordel in sound,
however this new aspect of Cordel is important to know about and also
to know about how libraries are acting
to preserve this new format for Cordel.
And here is also where you will begin to see a greater preference
of women, I know that came up earlier.
[ Pause ]
To go back to 2001, these are examples of two Cordels collected
by the Rio office following the September 11 event.
They became part of an LC Exhibit called Witness and Response,
the September 11 acquisition at the Library of Congress.
These are in paper format.   Today marking the 10th anniversary
of the same event you see digital form Cordel.
I chose this sequence of images for an American audience
so I don't want you to think
that these are not the usual folklore tradition
but I though these would be more interesting.
This is the E-cordel response to the death of Osama Bin Laden online.
I have included the URLs at the bottom
in case you are interested in going to those sites.
Cordel has always been about current events,
the latest news, the hottest topics.
Now, the most immediate way to reach people and the best way
to reach the most people is via the internet.
So it is not a surprise
that Cordelistas have embraced the latest technology.
Another Cordel on the death of Osama Bin Laden,
this and again the humor I mean even a tragic event there is
humor involved.
Born digital is a difficult term to use in this sense
because the creative work in this case I believe is born digital
but you still see the same work in paper format and again I'm sure
that is because there is an income to be derived that you can't acquire
if you are making it freely available online.
The other thing of interest about this image if you can see going
up to the side on the far right it says, selo digital as opposed
to in the past it would have been, selo gravura
and so these are also digital images.
Not all coverage of US topic is positive.
I wanted to mention in conjunction with this image
that it is not an indication of Obama's falling
in the polls amongst its constituents in Brazil
because in fact during his visit to Brazil
in March the same issues were spoken of, stealing the Amazon,
I don't think it matters who is president,
it would say, whoever go home.
So types of E-cordel include web sites,
in this case the circled part you can't see very well
but that is reference to a full text article.
And I think this is on one of Manuela's slides too.
One of our most prominent Cordelistas and the focus
in this case, of the website is educational.
Also from the same site, this is a full text Cordel
but you notice page one, it really hasn't transferred in the way
that it was produced and I believe this was
This series introduces the blog type of E-cordel
and again these are educational.
Often they are promoting upcoming events.
Another blog [inaudible] Cordel.
In this case I believe blogs serve a different person,
different purpose excuse me.
They represent the voice of the blogger rather than the organization
which is more the case with the web site.
More women and young people are becoming Cordelistas
since the advent of the digital format.
You don't need equipment to print, you don't need a publisher
and most young people have the skills to be able
to do blogging and websites.
You need to have an opinion and you need
to have knowledge of the Cordel tradition.
You can't see this, it says "Joke of the Week" at the bottom
and it refers to the Debt-Ceiling Crisis in August.
This is an example of a blog created by women and I'll read
from the profile if you are familiar with blogs there is a place
where you describe who you are, and I am quoting
from the site in English.
This blog was created by 2 northeastern women Rosario Pinto
and Dalinha Catunda with a passion for Cordel,
for popular culture and its roots.
The title is "To honor the women Cordelistas
who bring the magic of the feminine world."
Nevertheless the blog is not restricted to women.
Manuela spoke about the extensive work done by the folklore museum
to convert Cordel to digital form.
Rosario who was the, whose blog this is works at the folklore museum
and she has established a voluntary deposit based on her networking
with Cordelistas so that
as the Cordels are published the author deposits their paper copy
with the understanding that will be digitized for the collection.
[ Pause ]
So what do we do as the Library of Congress
with a substantial collection of paper Cordel to try
and capture the output that is only in digital form?
One way to do that would be to put a link on your web site.
This is an example of a site with a link that let us see, oops!
That doesn't connect to the site that you intended to connect to.
It is a lot of maintenance to try and make sure
that those links remain intact, sorry I am getting ahead of my self.
[ Pause ]   I am going to skip that one, too.
I am going to try and make up some time.
The other option would be to save each Cordel as a PDF file
and put it in a digital repository.
That doesn't make a lot of sense it is labor intensive for staff,
it is a manual not an automated process you can't really capture the
entire site in the way that it is intended to function
and it is a rather expensive way to capture the bibliographic control.
So the solution that we have arrived at is web archiving.
This is something that the library has been doing for many years now
and so the real office is simply building
on what is already a strong method of collecting for the library.
What this solution does is capture the website
as it was created by the site owner.
It, if you were to just link you get the real time view,
you don't capture it over time.
So the full use of the site is one of the features
that is important to capture, I'm sorry.
[ Pause ]
It involves downloading the code, the images, documents,
and all the files essential to reproduce the site.
In the process it collects metadata
that describe the process of capture.
What it is not?   It doesn't work like Google.
It doesn't bookmark the site.   It doesn't create a bibliography.
It is not cataloging the website.
It is not downloading and it isn't meant
to replace use of the live site.
Sometimes when you are in the web archiving, you get confused
and you can't tell whether you are live or not.
Oops! I took that out.
This is an example of permission letter that we used
in the first web archiving that we did in the Rio office.
We did the 2010 Brazilian Presidential Election and to do
that you need to ask permission of the website owner.
So what was different about project is the translation
of the permissions letters into Portuguese.
We did this as a collaborative initiative
with the National Library.
The Digi board that you see here that is a tool that is used
by the Library of Congress to manage the process,
it is used before collecting to nominate web sites
and to review those and different people are assigned those
responsibilities to nominate and to review sites for inclusion.
One of the things to highlight
on this particular slide is the frequency
of the [inaudible] that's one of the things that's important
to determine before the outset.
In the case of the Brazilian Presidential Election we wanted
to do it weekly because is was constantly changing.
With Cordel, we are not quite sure how often we will need to do it.
[ Pause ]
This will give you an example of how the web archiving works.
This is the home page so that shows you all of the sites
that are currently processed and available
and it gives you an example of how long we have been doing this
that we have as many as that.
The total quantity of what we have been collecting is 253 terabytes
which meant nothing to me because I am not a digital person
so I translated that to an equivalency it is 75 million photos
in jpeg format high resolution just to give a sense of the sheer size.
[ Pause ]
For this demonstration the Brazilian Presidential Election is in process
yet so I can't show you that and I'm not brave enough to this live
so you are not going to get
to see the actual functioning of the web site.
But I can walk you through this for the Indonesia
in general collections which was 2009.
The subject browse allows you to browse
by subject by name and by title.
In this case I picked women Indonesia.
And I got the search result of one web site and I am not going
to even trying pronounce this.   [ Pause ]
And when you go, when you go, when you select
that particular site you get to this screen which is the archive
for the site and you will see a list of dates
and those are all the different dates at which the site was crawled.
So those are all archived separately and I pulled up October 14th,
2009 and if this was live I would show you how you can click
on the different links and navigate
around this website to see what is there.
So if you picture Cordel, you could go to different places on the blog.
You could go to different images and different parts
of those websites and blogs.
I have given you some citations for more information
and I think we can make slides available if people are interested.
So, where are we with the project for Cordel?
I proposed to the management oversight committee
of the web archiving team that we begin to capture online Cordel
in order to compliment the collections that we have
in the Folklife Center so it is sponsored and funded by the library,
it is considered team based because the approach is Literatura de Cordel
and we will be forming an international advisory group
to help us select.
I was only able to include 25 or 30 sites so it is not very many.
I think over time, we may be going back to the oversight committee
to ask to expand that number.   It depends on what happens.
If you see a transition where there is fewer paper Cordels
and more digital Cordels then we would have to adjust that.
Right now it is I think too soon to tell.
So the sites would be including full text Cordel.
One of the challenges is the video clips that are often attached
to Cordel websites that show the performances of [inaudible]
so that may be an additional challenge in the blogs
that you saw some examples of.
The advisory group will help me to nominate websites,
recommend the frequency of crawl and definitely help
to seek permissions from website owners.
I think that will be a challenge so we want to be sure
that there is a way for us to work broadly within the Cordel community
to explain what we are doing and why.
I don't think it is something we want
to approach unilaterally as just an LC project.
So I have listed some of the members from the US,
now we are not starting this until November
so people have not been asked yet.
So if you see your name on there, obviously the Library of Congress
and then some of the key participants, US libraries.
And then in Brazil, the Rio office, the Folklore Museum [inaudible]
with Manuel and [inaudible] has a center for Brazilian studies
and Paolo [inaudible] has been very interested in this
so we have invited him to participate.
The other thing I wanted to mention because of the geography,
there is something called the International Internet Preservation
Consortium, IIPC, and they-- let me go to the map.
They work as group to collect and preserve web archives,
they work to develop common tools to facilitate that work and it is a--
the majority are national libraries.
In 2011 there are 41 members, but what is interesting
for this audience I think is the big gap in South America--
oops, excuse me, I would really like to encourage as much participation
as possible from that sector of the world.
This might be easier to-- sorry, might be easier to see than the pins
in the map, South America, 0.
If this was footsie ball, we would be really embarrassed.
And I left up this slide so we would have something for discussion.
>> Thank you very much.   [ Applause ]
>> So we have a few minutes for questions, I think there was suppose
to be interpreting also if we questions
from Manuela, is that correct?   That was what I was told.
Do we have any questions, please?   [ Inaudible Remark ]
>> Works now?
This is a question that is about archiving and preserving these
but more about the fact that I am friends with a lot of poets
in Brazil who are not exactly writing Cordels specifically
but who are writing in this tradition and what I have seen is
that a lot of them are putting on Facebook new poems,
new poetry that they are writing and kind of in partnership
with other poets, other musicians, other people who are
in this tradition and I see this partnerships being created
that would never been created otherwise, you know without the aid
of this Facebook relationships or online friendships
and I am just wondering how this is changing maybe the way
that Cordel is written the way that, you know if there are changes
in form, if there are changes in distribution,
things like that how these kind
of new relationships have influenced the actual production of Cordel.
Anybody has an answer?   >> Is the question for mine?
>> It is not really for anybody in particular, but I am just curious,
you know what your responses would be
or you know maybe just more of a discussion.
This is because I found it very interesting see all
of these poems showing up.   [ Pause ]
>> We thought about Facebook but there is a problem with passwords,
you can't crawl if it is password protected so that is a barrier,
it would have to be a public site.
One of the slides I took out was the Folklore Museum has a Facebook page
and you know if that is public, it doesn't require a password so in
that sense, we could capture that.   [ Pause ]
[ Foreign language ]
>> What she is telling us is that she has noticed
in educating the popular people-- the people so that more of them hear
about Cordel, the other thing that she is saying is
that this has opened the space for the Cordelistas
to make a little money so that not only they sell in a little fair
or some place, but when it is exposed on the internet,
then they become better known, they can sell some of there folhetos
and some of their Cordels.   So this is also expanding.
So she sees it as an opening and as an expansion in terms of money,
and also in terms of more people having access.
They do not have to go to the fair to get it.
>> Do you have any other questions?   [ Pause ]
[ Inaudible Remark ]   >> We can't hear.
[ Foreign language ]
>> Is the technique of selo digitial, is it just a scanning
of a selo gravura or it is a different technique?
>> You mean web archiving you mean?
>> When the Cordel is digital, so if you said that it didn't--
>> I think that's Manuela, Manuela is--
>> Was it hers?
That was yours, it said selo digital instead of selo gravura.
>> Ah, I believe that the art is done on a computer.
>> Okay, okay that's--
>> Well because you could see that his face was pasted
into another shape, another figure.
So I think I don't know if I can say Photoshop
but I think something along those lines.
>> Yes   >> Sorry I didn't understand.
[ Pause ]
>> Once in English and then again in Portuguese for Manuela.
I'd like to know if she finds problems with or opportunities
when applying that 70 year rule to works that have been published again
under another authors name if you have to wait 70 years for the death
of the author but you find something published recently
that is really the work of the author
that died 70 years ago, aren't you free?
Have you-- do you feel free to publish it?
[ Foreign Language ]
>> She is explaining and this is very interesting she--
I always learn.   I always learn when I'm here.
She is telling us that the 70 years rule is like this that
and she checked with it with a lawyer,
supposed that the person has been dead for 70 years
so they can use it, but suppose the family or friend has redone it,
it does not count it count the initial,
the author that did it 70 years plus and then it is fine.
So it has been reedited, too bad it still has its 70 years, okay.
>> Okay thanks.
>> Alright so if there are no more questions we can--
we have caught up a little bit on schedule
and we can thank our speakers and take 10 minutes for break.
10 minutes, thank you.
>> May I make an apology here I had mentioned before
that Abraao Batista was a dentist.
Now his mother-in-law came to me to give me one of his Cordels
and confirmed Candace's point he is not a dentist.
He is a scientist, chemist and environmentalist okay.
>> Okay.   >> Apologies.
>> I just would like to say that I was in Recife in July
of 1969 doing research when we landed on the moon
and colored TV wasn't around that much I was doing research on Cordel
and there was a corner ice cream shop black and white TV
and so we watched [foreign language] I saw it there at the ice cream shop
and all, the most amazing thing was afterwards they all knew I was a
gringo you know they all knew the American was here doing this stuff
and all this people came up and shook my hand, and congratulated me
for being an American as though I had put the space capsule together
or something.
It was a great time to be an American okay it really was,
it really was.
My take on this film I had seen it before the meeting.
I think the fact, the mere fact that they chose this topic
on the anniversary really shows you where Cordel is at today in Brazil.
I was doing-- I mentioned in the talk briefly yesterday
when I was doing my original research
in Brazil there was terrific prejudice against Cordel
against the Cordelistas and I knew all kinds of academics in Brazil
and they would whisper to me
and they would say [inaudible] I love Cordel but I can't write
about it not in academia that has all changed [foreign
language] Brazil.
Anyway just a simple take on it we had talked before is Cordel really a
regional thing.
Is it [inaudible] is it northeastern or is it now a national icon?
And I think we all have to admit even though the knowledge
by the general public in Brazil of Cordel is a lot
of times really erroneous, it is really a bit screwed up,
it is recognized and they have recognized it as part
of the Brazilian national cultural tradition
and I think we owe it to television.
We owe it to radio but we really owe it the internet.
I think that just changed everything.
But I have one question for Candace and anyone here, Goncalo and all,
this is a question I have and I would really like a good answer.
All these hundreds of sites on the internet, hundreds, the blogs,
everything, how man y million people in Brazil 250 million,
all of these people so many people-- they are all wired,
they are all on the internet who is it right now,
who is going to the internet specifically with the purpose
of looking up Literatura del Cordel?   Is the upper class interested?
Are these descendants of North Easterners?
Are these students?
And I cannot personally answer that question but I hope somebody
who has been in Brazil and spent some time recently
and done research recently can.
I know the immense popularity of the internet,
I know how widely Cordel is looked by now, but I still want
to know are there Brazilians pardon me
that don't care I would like to know, thanks.
>> I believe that Goncalo would like to help
and answer for this short answer   [ Foreign Language ]
>> I have a.   >> Oh you haven't translated.
>> Oh okay.
>> Who doesn't speak Portuguese here?
>> Okay so we need a translator.   >> What he told me before--
[ Inaudible Discussion ]
>> What Goncalo had told me a few minutes ago is that now that just
about everybody in Brazil either is in internet,
is interested in the internet it really does not depend on the class,
does not depend on the region but that he believes that especially,
especially young people are very much
into seeing not only documentaries, seeing Cordel
and also becoming more informed about Brazil
and the culture of Cordel.   And they are very enthusiastic
and they are following right now the Novela,
the soap opera that is based on Cordel.
>> I am glad you--
>> I have been to Brazil in November last year
and to my surprise a friend of mine
who is an interior designer was consulting the internet Cordel sites
to acquire work to place in the homes
and offices she was decorating.
So there is yet another level of the big print as an attraction
but Cordel in the long run will profit from that
because it can't be separated anymore at this point.
>> A quick comment because this was interesting.
In 1988 or 89 I was in Recife for a congress and they put as up
in a little hotel out in Olinda.
Every room in the hotel was decorated
with selo gravura [foreign language]
>> Yes and Marcelo is following suit, right?
>> But I mean they were using interior decoration then
>> What I would like to say is that I think that--
and there are couple of ways of watching that documentary
and one since, they did, indeed the reporters did go to real places
and talked to real people.
We can talk about those places, locatable places
and people who have biographies.
And we can talk about facts that have to do with the Cordel
but what really interests me
and I don't know whether it interests some other people here too
is the way this Cordel is in many ways an invented Cordel
at the same time that it is real Cordel and that the Northeast
that we are seeing here is a series of places that do indeed exist
and if we want to go there and look them up in the internet,
we are going to find them but it is also a construction.
It is an invention.
It is a Northeast that has a certain purpose is what I am trying to say.
And so one doesn't exclude the other but I think something
at the same time that we are feeling good about the spread of the Cordel
and we are feeling happy about the, there is no reason not to feel good
about you know the bigger place that Cordel poets are enjoying
and the apparent celebration at the Northeast.
So I think we have to ask which Northeast is being celebrated.
Is it the Northeast of construction workers or their children
and grandchildren in Sao Paulo who are often blamed for the violence
that is taking place right in urban centers?
I don't think so.
I think this is a particular rural Northeast that is
in many ways very pleasant to look at and which exists.
I am not at all saying, "Oh, this doesn't exist."
I am saying this is a really well made documentary
but that raises a number, I think of questions for us
about what do the reporters want to show us.
What is being said about the Cordel?
You know, I think one could do a whole article
about hats in the documentary.
It will be very interesting article because the kinds of hats
that people are wearing seem to me to be both sort of symbolically--
I am wearing my [inaudible] hat today, you know, but also,
are saying something about what the Northeast is, what tradition is
and even though shots of the guy on the rock, you know,
happily singing into the sun.
I am not saying people don't happily sing into the sun.
You certainly need the hat, right.
And a song like that but I am saying this is a portrait.
This is a narrative.
This is a story that we are being given about what the Northeast is
and what the Cordel is and I think again, one way of looking at it is
to say, this is an interesting aspect.
Let's talk about it but another way would be to say, what is the Cordel
that the Globo is presenting here?
How does it relate to the Cordel we are very soon going to see.
This is in January.   The soap opera begun when was it?
The April or something like that.
You know, clearly there is a relationship between the Globo
of the soap opera, right the Cordel of the soap opera
and again what people are being ask to speak for and to look
like vis--vis very clearly in national public
because this is okay, this is the rural global
but it is certainly incorporating things that go beyond, right,
the rural Northeast and it is certainly speaking to an audience,
a very large audience and telling them, right, a certain story
about the Cordel and about tradition, right,
and who are the tradition bearers, right, and again what counts,
what is part of this Cordel universe and what isn't.
Again, I am interested in what other people have to say
and if we are not interested in this I will certainly not push it
but when I watched it, right, I think that part of this is a very,
no again, it is great that the Cordel is more in the public eye
but which public are we talking about?
Whose eyes is this in?   What are we seeing?
What are we being asked to see?   What do we see?
What do we bring to this and what does this have to do with a Brazil
which is very much involved in a huge globalizing process?
Right, what in this globalizing processes
because far beyond even the nation are we being ask to identify
and how are we suppose to feel if we are Brazilian
about our own heritage, right?
If I am not Northeastern, what am I being asked to feel
and then what am I as someone outside Brazil, right,
being asked to think the Brazilians given this particular documentary.
>> Goncalo asked me to say about this, the soap operas started
in March as he recalls and also for those whom--
just about everybody here, that watches Brazilian soap operas.
They are not like the soap operas in US that go for 25 years.
They are usually about 6 months or so max and what is very interesting,
he also made a point about this that they often in an episode,
they relate not only to the Cordel but to a political situation
so that there-- there are discussions about [inaudible]
because there are no [inaudible] and so, it is very old
and it is very new, this Novela situation and also with Cordel.
>> May I come next, what concerns me is not necessarily--
it is also the fact that Globo has an agenda
and what does Globo want us to see, right?
You know, there-- it is in very simple, you know, way of putting it.
There are other ramifications like sometimes here it is amazing to me
that news is repeated every hour and you hammered a concept
that will form your opinion about AB or C. My feeling is
that Globo has an agenda and what is that agenda being--
I cannot tell you because I am watching 5 minutes of that.
But I wonder for those of you who have come from Brazil lately
and you are here for a taste of something
like that can you tell us what is the agenda that Globo has
that has been transparent to you while you were there?
>> Can I say just one thing?   Like this is 2 seconds.
You know, when we are talking about the agenda,
I don't think we are talking about what is Globo's evil purpose
in doing this but merely what-- you know, I am getting a little nervous
of that but what is the story, right?
>> Yeah.
>> We are really asking that Globo is telling--
>> Well the agenda is what does Globo want you to see there.
You know, what is the story they are going to-- they are trying to tell?
Agenda is a very loaded term but I didn't have that intent.
I just want to know what do they want us to see and if
in the end they have something other interest
in it then it is another story but--
>> I think that it is fair to say, there is probably a lot
of market research done and Globo is probably aware
that the concentration of consumers
that watch advertising are no longer concentrated in Rio and Sao Paulo.
Globo now actually, I believe is on it about 8 AM on Sunday morning.
So I don't know if it really does reach really a national audience
except those people who like to get up early on Sunday morning
and usually it has something about the farm reports,
the price of different commodities
and maybe something about new techniques.
So this is kind of like a variation from what they usually show.
I watch it sometimes just out of curiosity and I learn what the price
of a side of beef is or whatever else is being put on but I am just--
to answer to the question, I think maybe one thing is
that if you are a TV network and you sell advertising and you want
to make sure that you reach a wide public you have to be aware
of the interest of that, that wide public
and if people are buying more things as I think they are
in the Northeast then you better make sure you keep a good presence
among the television-watching public and maybe cater
to some of their interest, so.
>> What Goncalo is telling me right now is
that which I thought was correct is this that just
like the Novelas is shown more on the--
the Brazil [inaudible] is shown more than once and also with the Novelas
with the soap operas it is sometimes shown two or three times,
the same episodes because and people love to see it
because if they missed something on the second time, they can catch it.
So he was telling me that a Sunday morning is
when it is shown the first time
but then throughout Brazil it is often repeated the same thing
so that if you missed something or if you didn't get
up Sunday morning early enough you still can catch it
and it is the same with the Novelas with the soap opera and last
but not the least, we have to remember that Globo is now the fifth
in the world, is the fifth in the world.
So it has it-- no, it is shown in Angola, it is shown in Mozambique,
it shown on-- they [inaudible] in Portugal
because it is a Brazilian Portuguese
but it is shown throughout the world.
[ Inaudible Remark ]   >> Global market, they now have--
in Brazil it used to be that everyone watched the same Globo
but there is a paid Globo and the free Globo and perhaps the people
who are watching the paid channels don't see Globo Rural or--
so there is maybe some market differentiation going on there.
I am not sure.
I think that is interesting because for many years I think Globo
like Cordel was one of these things that a collective experience
that everyone watched the same thing or everyone heard the same story
and perhaps maybe, some of that is changing
in terms of the collective sense.   I am not sure.
>> I want to just to say, interject when I began my studies,
I had the great fortune of having as a mentor Luis da Camara Cascudo
who was probably the greatest Brazilian folklorist and he talked
at length about all of the cantodores that he knew growing
up in the 20s and early 30s and he lamented the fact
that all the [inaudible] now is not like it used to be.
It is changing-- this is it that he's talking about 1930.
He said, you have to divide the cantadores
between anything before about 1920 and later on.
So there is a generational thing happening here.
Now, coming to the film this is what I want to say,
I have seen all the sectors of the film.
I think the big theme folks and it is a great theme
and it is an inevitable theme is change.
Brazil is evolving.   We all know that like crazy.
Cordel has it ever evolved, it truly has evolved
from the times I was doing it which was the traditional and the markets
and all these and these old crumbly [foreign language] and all that.
When I watched the film today and I see these people with the guitar
on the rock out in on n Paraiba or Pernambuco singing what kind
of sounds like Cordel or even in the and later on in the film,
they have some cantadores who are doing [foreign language]
and they don't sound like the [foreign language] that I heard
in 1970 or 1966 but I think this is good because truly in 1966
as I've said more than once the prejudice was there and the people
who were involved with Cordel, it was a small fraction of Brazil
and the good news I think is with programs
like Globo and the evolution.
Whatever it is whether we like it or not,
whether we totally approve or not.
It is far more visible in Brazil and I think is truly a part
of the national heritage.
>> I think that if we are talking about a Brazil
that is undergoing intense globalization I mean I think I agree
with you that I think I would say that the moral is kind
of you can have your Brazil and not have it too.
You can have-- you can have change and everything changes and yet,
oh thank God, the Cordel will always be around to guarantee, right,
that there, the tradition never really truly goes away.
It changes but it never truly goes away.
And I think that that is an interesting
if that is indeed the message and undoubtedly, you know,
when we say what are people seeing in this,
they are seeing what they bring to it.
They are seeing what they want to see.
They are seeing, you know, we don't all see the same thing
in this even in this first 5 minutes.
I am sure but I am going to guess that some of this is about something
and one of the reasons that makes it a very I think popular theme
and something you would pick for 30 years would be it is a little bit
like maybe with the Globo would want to say about its self.
We have really changed.
We are not showing those same programs as we showed 30 years ago
but we are still the Globo Rural and I think in a time of huge change
and what was going to be quite exciting and quite disorienting
that it is a little bit that Brazil is really different
from it was and yet look, right.
Look at the-- what could be more traditional than the northeast?
What could be more traditional than the Cordel and here it is,
different but we can recognize it.
And I think this goes beyond the Cordel.
I think that the message here goes beyond and again it is
about the Cordel, it is about the northeast and I am agreeing
with what you are saying but I am trying to [inaudible] this
that this is really a story that is many stories in one
and it is something that is interesting to people
who are not maybe necessarily that, you know, interested in Cordel
that they can relate to and say, Oh yes, now my life is different
that I can see, right, what it was.
>> Well from being outside of the country for 30 years now.
Every time I go back, I expect while in the beginning,
I expected to find the same thing.   Okay, I am going home.
Well home is very different now.
Home is no longer that home I left 30 years ago and if I don't shape up
and face that and live it, then who is going to lose?
I am the one who is going to lose, you know, be forever frustrated
and what Candace is talking about is the change that happens it is
so gradual or maybe there is a jump at some point but it happens
and every time I try to do that I thought of--
gosh, I am terrible with names.
The dynamics of folklore, the book-- who wrote it?
>> Which book?   >> The dynamics of folklore.
>> Barre Toelken.   >> Barre Toelken, okay.
Barre Toelken's book is really an incredible tool for us to think
about these changes that happen in communities,
in art forums with the lack of access to some sort of raw materials
or whatever, you know, it changes.   So maybe this is what is going on.
There is a change.
It is not better, it is not worst, it is different and that is a fact.
We live with it, we have to.
>> I can't help but also say somewhat like that
because I have been going back and forth
to Brazil for the past 40 years.   >> They are not very young.
>> And I just returned about 2 months ago
and what is different is also the perception of Brazil outside
and Brazil in Brazil towards the rest of the world because right now,
anytime that you pick up any newspaper in this country
but especially Financial Times, The Economists, New York Times,
The Washington Post, almost everyday or everyday.
There is something about Brazil.   This is new, this truly is new.
And Brazilians are very aware of this.
They are so aware and I am sure it is being shown on Cordel
and in the Novelas and so on, Brazil is the country of the future
but the future now finally, finally has arrived
and Brazilians are very, very happy.   Things are very expensive.
They are more expensive than here but they feel very,
very happy because finally, finally, they know that Brazil is almost
or larger than the United States without Alaska, they know that
but they say Brazil continental-- So there is a sentiment.
That is the-- that is the very change.
When I left Bello Horizonte [foreign language]
>> We come from the same town.
>> So any way, just-- I couldn't help but say this.
[ Pause ]
>> Things that I just-- it is kind of have been--
I keep coming back to this in my mind and my responses to kind
of everything that you guys have been saying.
You know, just from the beginning, Mark your question
about who is doing this now, who is interested in this now and even
to Candace, what you were saying about the idea of there's
so much change but somethings, you know, will be there and somethings
>> You know, that's what Globo wants you to think.
>> Yes. It is what Globo wants you to say but it is also--
I mean, I was in Recife in February, March this year and I was struck--
I mean amazed by the number of people that I met there who were
in their 20s and younger who are active poets and Cordelistas and one
of them is in this documentary and-- I mean I met 16-year-olds who know--
who write Cordel, who do Maracatu rural, who do [inaudible],
who do [inaudible], who do dance and sing and do everything
and I was shocked to see these kids that are not--
they are still in high school and so active with their region
and so active with their-- you know, what they really view
as their traditions and something that is so representative of them
and their lives and it was something that I barely ever see here.
You know, I see people-- even, you know,
generations like slightly older like Siba in Recife.
He came to these traditional music when he was in his 20s and,
you know, he came to it after being an established rock musician
and then comes back and starts doing very traditional music again
and see people who are coming
up in this tradition instead of coming back to it.
To me, it was something so powerful and
>> One sentence, the very end of the documentary of Globo, the young lady
who does all the interviews, her last statement at the end
of the documentary is exactly what you said.
She said, "I was absolutely amazed.
I had no idea how many young people in Brazil are doing Cordel
or poetry, the young people."   >> Yeah.
>> Another surprise I had is the number of public performances
on the streets, almost like these guerilla performers, you know.
They get to a square, they get to a street corner and all
of a sudden they are performing and they are reciting.
They are dancing.
There is a lot cultural intervention in the commons, you know,
that where just-- that belonged to--
done by genius and to [foreign language] before.
Now it is a cultural space that is being used to pass
on intellectual production so cultural productions, I love that.
>> I am going to be really cranky again and I am going to say, yes,
you are absolutely right, I am going to say
and that is the beginning not the end.
I am going to say-- Marcus who I am going to ask you why and I am going
to say, are these all for the same reason saying the same thing,
because it seems to me that the richness of this
but also the real interesting questions that have--
that again are about Cordel and go beyond Cordel have to do
with those answers that are-- I am going to guess are not always going
to be the same in every case and that I am going
to guess also are going to be for different sort of [inaudible]
and there is going to be a certain amount
of debate among those people why they are doing it
and how they are doing it and how it ought to be done.
That is certainly the case with some of these Cordel academies, right?
Some of which are deeply devoted to a tradition that is defined
in a particular way and others.
Right, whose purpose is to question very directly that kind of tradition
so I think it is-- you know, I think it is great
and I think it is wonderful that this is happening but I think again,
if we are really asking questions about this, we are saying,
wonderful, great, this is so interesting.
Why, how, when?
You know this is again where we begin not where we necessarily end.
>> So each one of us has to answer the question,
like I haven't really told you what I really like
but this is absolutely true.   Each person will have their answer.
>> Yeah.
>> And these groups will have different answers
which I think is what is fascinating
and which is why you should rush back down there
and do a research about it.   You should.
Great, write your own and do your own research about it
because those are questions that are going to be speaking again not only
to what is happening in Cordel and in popular, whatever that means
in folk, whatever that means today, art forms
but there are also larger questions about what is the Northeast,
what is a region, what kinds of purposes does it answer
and again, what is Brazil, right?
This can't be just some known sort of something that is unrelated,
it has to be asking really central questions that are once
about the phenomenon and the go again beyond that, it seems to me.
>> In my book that I spend so much time
on Goncalo is in the book so much.
But you know what, it is the Goncalo from 1978, 1980,
1982 and when Goncalo talked now and told me--
they told this [inaudible] of everything
that the academy is doing, they said, "Whoa,
And it is obviously for the better.
There has been an expansion in interest.
There has been a change in the format and all.
But I think Goncalo down deep and you heard him recite,
he is still the good poet of 1978.   [ Applause ]
>> One thing that I recall very well growing
up under a military regime was the fact that through the art discourse,
through active participation in the arts, the beginning of the end
of repressive cultures have to come.
That there is a cycle of repression and there is a cycle of expansion
of individual liberties that you take at the risk of your own safety
and life that affect that.
And that when you think of [inaudible] and the [inaudible]
and you think about other people who were prac--
cultural practitioners that had intervened in the society
to create the base for an amnesty to bring back people
who have been exiled by the regime to happen
to bring back intellectuals that were missing
in the national discourse.
And if Cordel has one function that is amazing is that unification
of a lot of these aspirations of people for stability,
for access to resources, for pride in what they--
their culture is, for the production that they have.
I think Cordel is very important as well.
>> About this, I hope that some of you will take time,
not as early today, the day is almost over,
to come again to the Folklife Center.
We have Cordels here between 68 and 72 which was really the harsh
of the harshest of the dictatorship.   >> I would say 76 would be.
>> Yeah. But anyway [inaudible] 68 to 72 or 76
>> Yeah.   >> But anyway, we have Cordels here.
They are incredible with the way that some people
that are barely literate knew how they would pass the censorship.
So we have Cordels that is instead
of having stick figures showing the man and a wife saying things are
so terrible, we are hungry, there is so much corruption.
They have on the cover a little cow with her little calf.
And the little cow if you read, if you go ahead and read it,
the cow is telling her calf, things are so bad,
there is so much corruption but the censorship would see the cow
and her calf and say, "Well this is about a cow, who cares."
And they passed it.
For me it is incredible that the people who are barely literate,
they were-- I mean some of them were stupid,
but they were not necessarily, they were clever.
>> That's right.
>> They were clever about it and you come to do to the AFC,
to the Folklife and we have this here.
It is wonderful.
The other one that is also is a wonderful thing as you probably know
and I have to cite it is, believe it or not, Margaret Thatcher
at the time of the [foreign language] was a,
because Brazilians mostly don't like Argentines
but anyway Margaret Thatcher was a [inaudible] for Brazil.
That is a Cordel showing Margaret Thatcher, if you saw it,
you are going to have a heart attack.
Margaret Thatcher is shown as a [inaudible]
but it is about Margaret Thatcher.
So for me and I tell my students, you are to look at Cordel
as politics, international relations,
linguistics because this is a very special kind of language.
You can see very, very many ways but I think it is fantastic in this way
that people realize that by having a cover with a cow and her calf,
the censorship would not-- would not collect it
and say, "This cannot pass."   Incredible.
>> That-- that is right.
And the some of the major newspapers had other [inaudible] offices
as you know, like publishing works of Shakespeare
in between news material where the censors had cut off information
that was vital.
They would replace it with different things including recipes
and Shakespeare's work and you name it.
But I really think that there is an amazing opportunity here
for visual literacy to accomplish more than maybe, you know,
the writing would have accomplished at that time particularly, you know.
There were things you couldn't say
but you could represent them in a different way.
>> The good thing about this discussion is somebody says
something and bam you remember something
and when I was doing interviews in the late 70s I had a great interview
with [inaudible] and he's a smart [foreign language] but I found
out that later that even if it were not a dangerous plate,
[inaudible] did not like to write about politics.
That wasn't his thing.
He like to write about humor and religion and women and all
but other thoughts that just came when she said this was
and once again, Manuela and others this really brings
in the digitalization and the availability of this now
for how many people are we going to say, a few million?
Maybe a few million people now are going know Cordel
that did not before, with all the digital.
>> I want to ask question about a [inaudible]
>> Soap opera.
It's hard for me to understand what makes a soap opera have a Cordel
theme or-- or approach and I wondered
if you could just give some examples.
>> I haven't seen this soap opera myself.
>> Neither have I?   We have not seen it, sorry.
>> I have seen parts of it.
You can watch it on Youtube and it's not hard.
There are lots of--   >> There is someone who has seen it.
>> You are talking about the Cordel Encantado which is the--
yeah, yeah, it started a small story that somebody told me right.
I didn't watch it, the soap opera but yeah, of course I watch it
and it tells a story of a priest.   It's a fictitious piece of--
it's not history and it starts in Portugal
but it's not exactly Portugal so they make fun a little bit
of the colonization in the beginning and then they come to Brazil
because of some kind of treasure.
So they get that the fictitious piece, maybe a little part
of a cordel and its theme in the northeast.
So, there is a band of cangaceiros, the outlaws.
So the whole story is around, you know,
the language it's pretty much the dialects from northeast
and the way they tell the story with the small--
it's not the whole story that is like a long narrative.
They make small narratives and when they solve one problem then another
one stars.
So it's very dynamic and it's different from the rest
of the soap operas that I have seen.
So yeah, that is what about Cordel Encantado
and it starts at 5 o'clock.   >> It is over now actually.
The last incident was-- what was it?
It was a couple of days ago the last incident-- yes but basically,
if you are interested, you can watch it on Youtube.
The answer, the short answer to the question is really not a heck
of a lot except for the-- except everything.
It is kind of like the kitchen sink when it comes to the northeast.
So indeed Goncalo is in it, right?
He has, you know the-- some Cordelistas are in it and, you know,
but and there are lots of outlaws like Lampiao
and it is basically a fairy tale but it is a fairy tale with lots
of regional iconic kinds of elements
and so it is called Cordel Encantado, the Enchanted Cordel
which is a kind of-- immediately you are going
to think Cordel do Fogo Encantado.
You're going to think about this musical group
that was named after the Cordel.
And it is going to kill you that it isn't exactly, I mean,
it is not like-- I mean it uses some Cordel illustrations
like those little cut outs that we saw in the documentary just briefly.
They were like little paper cut outs.
Those kinds of designs are used in the soap opera and there is plenty
of regional stuff but I think it is again the Cordel-- very fascinating.
The Cordel symbolizing everything that is traditional and kind
of magical and kind of set apart from I think modernization in Brazil
because it is a fairy tale that takes place and begins
in the kingdom of Borogodo, you know, which sounds a little bit
like Harry Potter but it sorts of transpose
to the Northeastern backlands and it's a story right about magic and--
but I think it is a story about happy endings and it is a story
about in some ways how one can be Brazilian and magical and modern
and traditional all at the same time but you watch it.
It is easy enough to tune on-- to turn on YouTube.
The problem is it is so long, right.
You could spend a lot of time watching it.
>> Gonzalo just told me that he was one of the people consulted for this
for this soap opera that he-- I think he even appears in it
and that the people in the soap opera knows that he is here
and because they often, as I told that if there is an event
that is happening about [inaudible] something
that is incorporated in Cordel.
So for those who are going to be watching it,
watch to see whether they mentioned the fact that Gonzalo is here
and is telling us about the Cordel
because they often-- they incorporate that.
The people in the Globo know that he is here.
>> What, okay.
He would like to say a few words about the Novela.
Go sir.   [ Foreign Language ]
[ Applause ]   >> Gracias.
[ Silence ]
>> I don't even know where to start my question.
I am not an expert on Cordel.
I knew about it before but I haven't really experienced it until today
but one of the questions I had was about literacy and has this--
from what I understood from what I saw today,
this was a way the literatura de cordel--
was a way for people to share
with their families their artistic expression and also to share news
and to promote different political ideas, historical issues, et cetera.
And now that it is being put on the internet
and many more people are aware of it, how the people decided
to use this in a different way in order
to promote literacy among young people and among people specifically
who have not had as much access towards-- in education.
>> As many of you may know, one of the great things that happen first
with Presidente Cardoso and then Lula is now being continued
with President Dilma.
There's a Bolsa Familia that has really has the possibility
of really changing things.
Very simple ways, instead of people, kids selling cigarettes or going
to prostitution at the corner, they go to school, the teachers says
that they are there so many days then the family gets subsidized
food, get also basic medical health.   So that is beginning to change.
The other things I said I have seen and in fact Goncalo gave to us,
and now he is giving to the Folklife, a number of books
on biology, on ecology using-- using Literatura de Cordel,
images of the Cordel to tell the young people, you know,
don't cut a tree, be careful, and so on so forth.
So it has really begun I think being much,
much more of an educational tool than it used to be.
That is my impression.
>> One thing that one could say is that, you know,
we talked a little bit at least yesterday
about how the Cordel has always been both oral and written.
Sometimes more written, sometimes more oral.
It has always been a hybrid form in the sense
that at least traditionally the Cordel was performed in marketplaces
and that even when it had been written, which it wasn't always.
It was something that was written in the head and then put down on paper.
But say it even had it been written down on paper,
even in the marketplace, in order to sell,
there would often be an element of improvisation.
I start talking about your black blouse because I'm hoping
that you are going to buy, right, my product.
And I think that we are in a really, really interesting moment in terms
of the oral and the written because to a certain extent,
the Cordel is returning to orality if only through music
and through forms really that privilege
in some ways the cantador element and that also allow a kind
of invention on top of things that are written forms
but then become-- be their performances.
At the same time, look at what the internet will do, you know,
is doing to, you know, there are cases in which people sort
of email back and forth and they can even use Skype
by doing [foreign language] right.
I make up your verse, you make up your verse.
We go back and forth.   But a lot of it is written, right?
A lot of the Cordel that is passed
over the internet is basically a written form
which is composed in solitude.
And which is written through syllable counts because most
of the Cordel of the past, much of traditional Cordel is--
the counting is actually done by ear.
It is an internalized rhyme, right, which is then transmitted
when it is transmitted on to paper, you know,
through you are still counting, you are still hearing it
in your ears, in your head.
And I think that much of the present day Cordel, right,
is something that is really composed by counting the syllables
because you learn maybe in the classroom or--
and again, we are not talking about what is good and what is bad
and what is authentic and this I don't think is very helpful.
But we can certainly talk about what elements are oral,
what elements are written, how these things exists, you know,
in relationship to one another, how they might exist in music
and be altered by music or even a television program, right,
and how they exist when you are counting out the syllables,
and what your values then for the Cordel are.
And even if you are talking about performance, is it the same thing
to have a performance in a marketplace
where you are improvising and stopping short,
trying to sell a thing, you and your black blouse, right?
Or if you are in a festival, right, and you are performing
for an audience that has paid to hear you perform.
I think these are very, again, large questions about performance,
about the word, about orality, you know, that are wrapped up
and have always been wrapped up that are today wrapped
up in a somewhat different form, right, within the Cordel.
>> I want to supplement that.
I totally agree with you but I think that there is an iconography
with Cordel that is also a form of culture of literacy
that is very important, you know.
When you see the way that in gravadores ,
the engravers like [foreign language] they have one way
to represent the local.
It is either a cactus, it is either a mountain,
it is either some stylized part of the Caratinga.
Caratinga by the way is an ecosystem and it is formed by trees
that are very thorny, the same kind of Russian olive
and different things in the arid lands.
And by also identifying the vaquero by the hat and the hat that is not
like our cowboy hat in the westerns, United States.
It covers the ears so when the vaquero rides after the animal
in the chachinga the ears are cut off by the thorns.
So you look at all the ways to indicate origin
by ornamenting the hats with the star of David the clearly connect
that to Jewish community that has settled in that area you know
for many, many, many centuries now you know.
And Recife by the way has oldest [inaudible] synagogue
in the Americas.
So those are untold verbally they are not sung in music
but they are told visually.
And in the 60s when a huge effort toward alphabetization
in under served communities urban
and world communities those images were used.
They were identified as everybody can point at [foreign language]
in the [foreign language] because of the iconography, the glasses
and the color, the posture so the visual language
of Cordel is also very important you know, very grounding.
>> Haven't changed that much and the [inaudible].
>> Yeah what I was asking is could we say
that in a way the woodcut hasn't changed that much over all
of these years let us say the last 90 years or 70 years.
>> It has changed a lot.
I think that it changes with the [foreign language],
with the gravador, with the artist.   And you know if you look
at [inaudible] he has a very personal way
of representing his characters from [foreign language] to the devil
to women to whatever he does.
There is an elegance of trace there that is very compelling.
You look at Borges and the simplicity of his message
and the way he treats the space.   He doesn't leave much open.
He frames things a certain way.
He makes his message the central point except for that maybe
that psychoanalyst kind of print
where everything is scattered you know all over the place.
But they all have their own way of composing pretty much
like [foreign language] composed or [foreign language]
or [foreign language] or [foreign language]
or that I do my own stuff you.
You know we each have our own language our visual language.
>> How many [inaudible] would you say an artist would have
in his studio, hundreds perhaps?   >> I have no idea.
I know that they are very prolific
at times the [inaudible] is cut for the pawn.
At times they are cut and then used because that's more expeditious.
At times they are used you know to represent metaphors like the cow
and the calf where a metaphor for them mother and the child you know.
So it's very individual and I don't have a better answer for you.
>> Thank you.   >> You're welcome.
>> I have one thought and its changing the subject.
I apologize for that but you know time goes
by in your career and all that.
I have written literally thousands of pages about the Cordel.
Okay many books and all that.   I have a daughter she is 32 now.
She is a real poet.
She has got it in her heart, in her head and all.
And so finally this summer after working in Cordel 40,
45 years I said you know I should try to write one in English.
So I wrote this one and it was all about the story of my family
when they migrated from the farms in Nebraska to Kansas.
And I wrote and I showed it to my daughter.
She says dad that's very interesting.
She says but the rhyme, the rhythm what I'm trying
to say is I don't know about these other persons here and all
of you we are researchers and to our credit we love the Cordel.
[Foreign Language] I think it's a great art to be a poet.
And that's why someone said someone said I don't know last 2 days
in Latin American, in Iberian countries and all
of these there are many oh it was you that who said all
of these young kids in Pernambuco
and wherever they are they love poetry.
[Foreign Language] and Cordel in its own way
and in its own style is certainly
that phenomena so thank you I'm done.
>> You're done okay.   [ Inaudible Remarks ]
>> I think it is almost time to wrap
up so maybe I will just throw something out here,
is Cordel you know we have heard about the aesthetic.
We have heard about the themes.   We have-- there is also a form.
There is the way it has been printed and distributed.
All of these things seem to make up Cordel but what,
what ultimately can any of you or is it all of the above or anyone want
to try saying what ultimately more one thing than the other
that makes up Literatura de Cordel.   [ Inaudible Remark ]
>> I will jump in and say I think it is a series of languages you know
that are a visual language that are a language of song.
And within those things I think it is also deeply a language
of wonder and violence.
I think that it is powered right in part by wonder, wonder at the world
and therefore it is not in some sort of academic theory
that it comes from a very deep within.
It is an artistic response but a response to things that are amazing.
And at the same time because in part it is Northeastern it is human
and it is Northeastern it is also very deeply above violence.
It is about-- if it is about the Northeast it always has
to be right about injustice.
It almost has to be right about certain kinds of,
of seemingly intractable suffering.
It is about a kind of Brazil that is different or at least the Brazil
that is always seen as some how being different.
And I think that like so many other things in this world wonder
and violence are always changing.
You know it is not like wonder at which we will define as this
and it is violence which we will define as this.
This is interweaving series of sources right
of forces not even sources, forces that somehow give birth to words.
And that these words vary and will continue to vary
but they come from very deep within.
And so let me tell you something I once went
to see Carlos Drummond de Andrade right
and the very first book I did I sort of I was young enough.
I was too young to know better.
And I went and I knocked on the door of these famous people.
And one day Carlos Drummond de Andrade
who is Brazil's most famous 20th century poet opened the door
in Copacabana somebody gave me his address.
And this poor guy opens the door and he is really sick.
He has this scarf around his neck and his nose is kind
of running you know and he says oh.
And I said oh you know I would like so much
to talk to you about the Cordel.
And he says you know come back another day I am really sick.
And I said oh no but you will be too busy.
He said no come back another day.
So I came back another day and showed me his Cordel collection.
He had a fairly large Cordel collection that he made.
Yeah he did because he had actually been forced to work
as some sort of-- he had this awful bureaucratic job
that the dictator Vargas gave him.
And it was located near what is called the central station.
And there, there were a lot of Northeasterners selling Cordel.
So he would be interested and he would stop.
And they would be singing sometimes
and he would buy these Cordel things.
And he said to me something I will never, ever forget.
He said you know I have these Cordel and et cetera.
And he said I buy them and let me see if I can sort
of remember what he said in Portuguese
because it was better he said.   [ Foreign Language ]
>> He said, I am a poet right
but the poet draws upon things deep within him or her.
And is able to put into words what everybody feels
but not everybody is able to say.
Well I too am a poet and I understand this.
And I buy Cordel.
I like Cordel because it is poetry so maybe we should give him
and all poets the last word.   [Applause]
>> Thank you so much this was a wonderful ending
to a fascinating set of presentations about the many layers
and ways to look at Cordel.   This has been really very special.
You have been a great audience very participatory
and that has been wonderful.
I want to well I won't, I won't identify all the Library
of Congress staff who have helped
but [inaudible] is public programs director in my office.
Steve Winnick helped with the publication and so on.
Stephanie Hall worked on the website which I don't know if you have seen.
We have got quite a few things on the web site and it will stay up
and we will probably enhance it in months to come.
So I just thank everybody Rio office and Hispanic division
and poetry office, et cetera, et cetera
and especially the presenters,
the speakers who have done a wonderful job and opened our minds
to new ways to look at Cordel.
So lets give our speakers a round of applause please.
[ Applause ]
>> We are waiting for Mr. Goncalo to come back down the hall.
What I should also mention is that we have received some acquisitions
through people who have been here at the symposium
which will join our collections of Cordel and materials
about it books and videos and Cordel.
So that is always welcome.
So yes oh please why don't you come to a mic.
>> No, no this is very brief I really
like to recognize [inaudible].   >> Great idea.
>> Excellent idea.   [ Applause ]
>> Thank you so much.   Thank you very much.
[ Pause ]   >> Our friend Goncalo, encantado.
[ Foreign Language ]
>> I want to thank all of you for coming here.
And this for me has been a very interesting and very productive kind
of experience working with 2 divisions
with two different traditions.
And the people got along fairly well so there is you know I am not going
to say that we did beautifully but we got we didn't kill each other
so that is very important.   And we really were able to--
I learned a lot and I hope all of you learned a lot.
And we hope very much, very much that you come and take advantage
of the, of the riches that we have here in this library especially
in terms of Cordel in every way.
I have to thank again the Rio office and I have to thank Kathy
and all our various many speakers.
And we are also very thankful that Dr. Billington was able to be
with us for part of the time.
And also the support from the Brazilian embassy.
Now if the encantado shows up we can finish.
>> We can also you will probably stand around
and talk just a little bit we will give him a mic.
>> Okay the main thing, the main thing is that Goncalo gave
to us several of his books and as he said [foreign language] used
in terms of education.
So he has one here about ecology, about world constellations,
microbiology, naturalist, nature.
All these things are going to be-- he gave to the Library of Congress.
And as soon as he completes some of the changes and reviews
of his own Cordel those will be available to everybody
because they could not be available yesterday.
So I hope the encatado shows
but he doesn't show well we will thank him anyway
so thank you for coming.   I appreciate it.
[ Applause ]
>> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress.