>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. [ Pause ] >> Mary-Jane Deeb: Good afternoon. Good afternoon. And welcome to the African and Middle Eastern division of the Library of Congress. I'm Mary-Jane Deeb, Chief of the division. And I'm delighted -- truly delighted -- to see you all here in our reading room for what promises to be a fascinating program. As most of you already know, our division is made up of three sections -- can you hear me at the back? Okay, wonderful. Our division is made up of three sections: The African, the Near Eastern and the Hebraic sections. We are responsible for materials from 78 different countries in the Near East, Central Asian, the caucuses, as well as from the entire continent of Africa, north and sub-Saharan. And our Hebraica and Judaica collections come from all over the world. We also serve these materials to patrons here in our reading room and organize programs, exhibits, conferences, and other activities that highlight these collections and that inform our patrons about the countries and the cultures these publications come from. The librarians in this division, as well as in many others, are themselves published scholars with the knowledge of the languages and the cultures of the countries for which they're responsible. The region that this division covers happens to be also the birthplace of the three great monotheistic religions: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Although we do not advocate or promote any particular religion, we cover in our public programs the historical, cultural, and social aspects of the communities and societies that embrace these creeds. The Hebraic section, for example, has hosted numerous programs on Jewish music, poetry, art, and literature and has organized an exhibit on the Hebrew book, which will open on October 25th and to which you're all invited. The Near East section has organized many programs on Islam -- Muslim women, for example, Sufi traditions, we even had whirling dervishes from Turkey. And we had a Rockefeller Foundation grant which supported a whole series on globalization and the Muslim world. However, this division has rarely had a program on the third group, the Christians of the Near East. This in spite of the fact that we hold an important collection of books and publications on eastern Christians, including a digitized collection of Syriac, Aramaic, and soon Coptic manuscripts on the World Digital Library, which is a virtual library created by the Library of Congress and UNESCO. The Library of Congress also holds a collection of liturgical Coptic music in the music division. And I know that the Chief of the Music Division plans to be here, Sue Vita. And she has worked closely on this project, and it is accessible online. So if you want to hear Coptic music, Coptic chants, Coptic -- it is available on the website of the library. So today we have this great opportunity to have Bishop Angaelos, the General Bishop of the Coptic Orthodox Church of the United Kingdom fill this lacunae and talk to us about one of the oldest Christian communities in the world, the Copts of Egypt. I have to thank Nermien Riad, the President of Coptic Orphans, an NGO that takes care of orphans and children whose parents are too poor to feed them or who have no parents, whom I recently met at the presentation by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. She told me about the visit of Bishop Angaelos and suggested that he could come and talk at the library. So with Hanan Baky of Coptic Orphans we organized the program today. Before I turn over the microphone to Dr. Fawzi Tadros, The library collects publications in all fields from around the world except for clinical medicine because there's a National Library of Medicine and agriculture because there's a National Library of Agriculture. However, the Library of Congress does not take a position on any issue, nor is it an advocate for any policy, nor does it promote any organization but its own. Consequently, we do not get involved in politics -- local, national, or international -- and we may very well be the only such institution in Washington. So I will ask you if during the question/answer period after the presentation you refrain from asking political questions to our esteemed guests. I would very much appreciate it if you focused your questions on the subject of this presentation only. Many thanks. And now to introduce our speaker, our very own Dr. Fawzi Tadros, one of the most important scholars -- librarians -- here at the Library of Congress who knows more about our collections -- the Arabic collections, the Coptic collections -- than anyone else in the entire library. So Dr. Fawzi Tadros. [ Applause ] [ Pause ] >> Fawzi Tadros: Ladies and gentlemen, it is really my honor and happiness to welcome to all of you here at our division. A special welcome and thanks to our guest speaker, Bishop Angaelos, who is going to talk on "Who are the Copts?" Bishop. [ Pause ] Bishop Angaelos was born in Cairo, Egypt and immigrated with his family to Australia as a young child in 1973. He spent all of his childhood and early life in Sydney. He was educated there and received his bachelor degree, majoring in political science, philosophy, and sociology; he did post-graduate studies in law while still working in the same field. Bishop Angaelos returned to Egypt in 1990 to join the monastery of St. Bishoy in Wadi El-Natrun, Egypt. He became [inaudible] by the name of Brother Arsenios of the monastery and was consecrated a monk by the name of Father Angaelos on October 21st, 1990 by Pope Shenouda III. Bishop Angaelos remained at the monastery of St. Bishoy, being Administrator of the papal residence and conference center there and was Secretary to the Pope for six years. In June 1993, Bishop Angaelos was ordained a priest and continued his responsibilities in Egypt. In December 1995, he was delegated by the Pope to serve as the first permanent parish priest for St. Anthony Coptic Orthodoxy Church in England. While at the same time paying particular attention to youth ministry, he also established his assent as an [inaudible] Coptic theological college at the Coptic Center in [inaudible] in 1997. On October 14th, 1999 Bishop Angaelos was consecrated as General Bishop. At the ecumenical level His Grace is very active at the local, and national, and international level. At the official level Bishop Angaelos represents the Coptic Church in the United Kingdom at public and official occasions. And there has been the guest of Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Philip at official occasions and at their Windsor Castle residence. He has also been a host to Brown William, Archbishop of Canterbury, during the archbishop special visit to the Coptic Center in May 2004. Please join me to welcome His Grace, Bishop Angaelos. [Applause] Okay. I'm glad also after we enjoy hearing His Grace Bishop, we have a reception and everybody's invited. It's in the conference room. So you are all welcome. Please. >> Bishop Angaelos: I'm so glad that you made the announcement about the reception because it makes sitting through the talk worthwhile. Thank you for this opportunity, and thank you for the opportunity to be here in such an esteemed location, Library of Congress and within this department both of North Africa and also of Middle East where the Coptic Church and Egypt finds itself a member of both delineations. We pride ourselves on being the largest Christian nomination in the Middle East while having our origins firmly in Africa, having a good connection with the churches and the heritage throughout the sub-Saharan African section and throughout the Middle East as well. I must start by saying that the term "Coptic" is quite confusing. And if I were say to you that this church was a Russian Orthodox, or Greek Orthodox, or Eritrean Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, it would make sense because of the cultural and the ethnic delineation. But "Coptic" just means "Egyptian," comes from the Greek word "Aegyptos" meaning "Egypt" and earlier from the Pharaonic [inaudible]. I learned the lesson very early on not to take shortcuts when describing what "Coptic" meant. I've told this story before that usually when I introduce myself I speak about the Coptic Church and I say Coptic, Greek, Russian, long introduction. One day I was in a little bit of a rush going to one of our parishes in the west of England, and I stopped at a service station to refuel my car and was in quite a rush, saw a scruffily-dressed gentleman with a rucksack and a sign. And he said, "Good afternoon, Padre." And I said, "Oh, good afternoon." He said, "So which church are you from?" I said, "I'm really not in the mood." "Well, Greek, Russian, Indian, Ethiopian?" So I just took the shortcut and said, "I'm Egyptian Orthodox." He said, "Oh, so you're Coptic." [Laughter] Turned out to be a lapsed theologian. [Laughter] So that's why I go through the painstaking terms of explaining what Coptic means, so I don't get caught up by that again. The Copts are the indigenous people of Egypt, having been there since the first century; preached by St. Mark, the writer of the second gospel; and the recipients of the message of Christianity as early as that. Christianity has therefore been in Egypt since the first century and on broken heritage through the church -- the church being mainstream, trinitarian, conservative, traditional -- depending on the writings of the fathers -- scriptural, and holding to the life and practice not only in the realms of teaching and theology, but everyday life of every Christian throughout Egypt. It currently represents about fifteen percent of the population of Egypt. So as I said, it is the largest Christian nomination in the Middle East until today. The historical perspective is that being preached by St. Mark and established in the first century, Egypt was a majority Christian country speaking Coptic. Many people are confused by Coptic. Coptic is the language that succeeded Pharaonic but uses Greek script. So if you read Greek, you would walk into a church and see the script on the iconography or in our liturgical books, our lectionaries, and you'd be able to recognize the lettering. It has an additional eight letters that did not exist within the Greek language. This was the case until the year 642 with the Arab conquest of Egypt where, gradually as time went on, the culture was replaced by an Arabization of Egypt and the language was replaced generally with the use of Arabic. Coptic maintains itself as our liturgical language, being used extensively, but also remains as a spoken language for some throughout the world who will continue to use it We see the Christians -- the Coptic Christians of Egypt -- going through the early seventh century, through the Caliphates, through a transformation, which in the words of Gladys Frantz-Murphy in a study said that it was a transformation at a glacially slow pace; it happened over centuries. It wasn't overnight. Over that time, there was a maintaining of the heritage and practice of the Christians in their own language with its own dialects, in their own culture, and in their own belief. The knowledge of Greek and Coptic did not immediately disappear but it continued and it continued to be a means of the conduct of their daily life. Egyptian continued to worship in Greek and Coptic, as evidenced by the survival of the Greco-Coptic bilingual lectionaries until today. By the 11th century, legal documents had generally been changed to Arabic throughout Egypt. Generally speaking, by the year 900AD Egypt was transformed into that of Islam, the Islamic Nation. And the Abbasid Caliphs became the leadership of the majority Muslim State as it stood at that time. Another interesting transformation then was the resurgence of the Islamic ulama, the scholars. And matters of law, matters of practice and appropriateness were then deferred to the scholars, giving an even greater tinge of religiously-led life in Egypt. There were between 1293 and 1354 AD four separate campaigns launched against those who had dhimmi status. And in particular, there was a transformation in the place of those people, although protected by attacks, but the general trend towards them. And there was a pressure taking many forms that sanctioned and enforced the Mamluk government to slowly but surely shrink the Christian presence within that realm. Although dhimmi status [inaudible] started to take greater shape and started to define the presence of Egyptians -- Christian Egyptians in Egypt -- people were still able to stay and worship but in a much less evident way because this was seen to be offensive to some who were still there. There was a wave of religious persecution that came around the 13th and 14th century, and it changed the demographics of Egypt. Over 60 years between 1293 and 1354 AD, Egypt was transformed from an eighty percent majority Christian nation to a fourteen percent minority Christian nation, a percentage that seems to hold until today where the general perception is that the Coptic Christians represent about fifteen percent of the population of Egypt. In the year 1354, some seven centuries after the Arab conquest, there was a turning point in Egypt in which its appearance, its life, But I think we need to hold one thing very important, and that is that the story of the Copts in Egypt is not a story of persecution and defeat; it is a story of strength, resilience, Although over the 2,000 years of the existence of Copts in Egypt, Copts have been the recipients, I think, of one of the titles of those who have experienced the greatest waves of persecution and martyrdom; we are still a vibrant community within an Islamic state, within an Islamic region. The churches are full. The monasteries are full. The Christians continue to live their lives, not provocationally by any way, but in a spirit of love, in a spirit of tolerance, in a spirit of knowing that they are in essence and by origin Egyptian, although marginalized. It's very difficult to distinguish between the Egyptian origin and the Christian reality of the Copts of Egypt. One telltale sign of this is that although we have seen mass exodus of Christians from the Middle East, for many countries where Christianity was there for millennia -- from Iraq, from Syria, and the Palestinian territories, from throughout the region -- a vast ninety percent of Coptic Christians still live in Egypt. So those outside of Egypt represent between ten and possibly fifteen percent of the population of all Coptic Christians in the world. The Copts today, because of all of this background, have found themselves relegated to the confines of the church as the most comfortable place of existence. Having been marginalized and alienated by a society that has become much more Arab, much more Islamic, the Copts have resorted to the church being more of their identity, while still holding onto their Egyptian origins. That can be very clearly seen when we looked at the 25th of January, that fateful day where contemporary Egypt changed and we had tens -- hundreds -- of thousands of Egyptians out in Tahrir Square who were celebrating a very new start. You could see these people filling the square, not being able to distinguish Christian from Muslim, young and old, all who were there to celebrate their Egyptianness and almost a reclaiming of national identity and an ability to be Christians and Muslims together but primarily and foremost Egyptians side by side. This unfortunately didn't last because the prior decades had not built a spirit of social unification or cohesion. And unfortunately, that has gone by the wayside. But we still hope that that spirit continues in the hearts of every Egyptian and that once again Egyptians, Christians, and Muslims alike can look at themselves being primarily Egyptian. So the dependence on the church became paramount and the church then started to be the comfortable realm and the provider. Because of these dynamics, the pastoral ministry of the church became the savior and the protector of Coptic Christians. If we look at the role of the church, it's extensive in its pastoral ministry, through its Christian education programs -- ranging from the youngest children in Sunday school, through to youth programs, to young adult programs, and through its adult ministries. We are reported to have at least ten thousand Sunday school teachers in Cairo alone, which gives you the scope and the extent of Christian education and how it supports people. We look at a church that values its people, and we look at a people who value themselves and who want to learn and maintain not only their heritage, but their spirituality and their Christianity. If you speak to most Coptic Christians, they will come across as people who are faithful, who yes, want to maintain their heritage but who focus more on just living a Christian life day to day. And this has come through their survival over the past 1,300 years in very challenging times. In terms of the youth ministry of the church, it is one of the most vibrant sections. The late Pope Shenouda III, who passed away just last year, and who actually was one of the driving forces of Christian education, and who had a famous saying which was that "A church without youth is a church without a future." And so we see extensive investment. Throughout the world there are tens of youth conferences annually and there is a diversity of youth ministries. We are very, very blessed with a community -- a Coptic community -- that is so gifted in so many ways. Just to give you an indication, in the United Kingdom alone we run fifteen different youth programs, going through the broad spectrum of general youth ministry; educational ministry; cultural ministry; arts ministry; sports ministry; and everything else that comes in between, to be able to give every person the ability to both enjoy and express him or herself in the way in which they feel most comfortable. This gives an opportunity for the Copts to express themselves and to grow as a community: Being vibrant, visible, productive, cooperative members of the societies in which they live. I'm always proud to tell people that as a church, we are not exclusive; we don't close ourselves off. And that is exemplified by the vast variety of outreach ministries that have not only been spurred on today, but have been there since the early centuries. The church has had an incredible contribution. Coptic Christians throughout the centuries have contributed significantly to the ecumenical life of the church, the church at large, as it has developed. Whether it be Athanasius, with his contribution to the Athanasian Creed, Cyril of Alexandria [inaudible]. All of our fathers who are recognized across the world, across the ecumenical life of the church of God and who are seen to be contributors, accepting the first three councils and being members of those councils in every aspect, we see a continuation of the life of the church Being members of the Royal Council of Churches; the All Africa Council of Churches; the Middle Eastern Council of Churches; the Australian Council of Churches; CEC in Europe and various European instruments; Churches Together in England, Churches Together in Britain and Ireland; the Council of Oriental Orthodox Churches; and many other such bodies globally; as well as its dialogues, both official and unofficial with the Eastern Orthodox family of churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the Anglican Communion, the Evangelical Alliance, and a broad spectrum of other expressions. We see that the spirit of the Copts that started in the third, fourth, fifth, sixth centuries continues today in a very real way. Likewise, another significant contribution, and that is of monasticism. We have great fathers of monasticism -- St. Anthony the Great, Saint Shenoute, Saint Pachomius, people who established the great orders of monasticism as they are known today: The hermetic order, the cenobitic order, the communal order. Basically if you look at any member of any monastic order anywhere in the world, their origins are in the deserts of Egypt because that's where it started -- John Cassian, St. Benedict, people who went and who took that spirit of monasticism and brought it back into the West and from there it ignited. I can't tell you how it makes me feel when I walk through any airport, anywhere in the world and I see a Catholic nun or a Franciscan brother. I instantly feel a connection because our origins are in those great fathers. And again, until today, being in quite a peculiar situation amongst churches, our monasteries are flourishing. We actually turn people back because we don't have enough space for them. We're building new accommodation. I make the observation to many people that as in the west, every boy wants to grow up to be a fireman; in Egypt, they want to grow up, they want to be monks. And that is because the monastic life has been such a pillar of the church, a pillar of Copts. Until now those monasteries are a place of sanctity, havens. In the midst of turmoil you will still get busloads of people going to retreats. When I was still in the monastery, I remember walking out one day and seeing what I thought were thousands of people. And I went up the monk who was responsible for the guests and said, "How many people do you have coming through?" This was a public holiday. Ten thousand people went through the monastery that day. Busload after busload would come and then move onto the next monastery. In England at the moment they do things called "pub crawls" where they'll start on an evening and start from one pub or bar and go to the next. In Egypt we do it a little bit differently. [Laughter] They'll do monastery crawls. They'll start from Alexandria with the Monastery of St. Mina, work through Wadi El-Natrun and the monasteries there, and sometimes even go into Cairo and visit the convents there. It is such a rich and vibrant history and heritage that lives until today. I remember being in the monastery -- and I was there for six years -- but towards the end of my time there, there's a small tunnel that links the church with the refectory. And as I went through that tunnel, I suddenly felt shivers up and down my spine. I don't know why at that instant it clicked that monks had been walking up and down this tunnel for 1,500 years -- people who lived the life I lived when I was there, and people who lived a life that inspired me and so many others to continue to live, not only in Egypt, but throughout the whole world. In the realm of interreligious interfaith dialogue I want to reassure you that it is not such a nuance in the Egypt. We've been doing it for 1,500 years. It was not post any calamity, it was not post any act; it has become a way of life. Christians and Muslims living in Egypt, for the most part peacefully. When they are focused on who they are and they live as they are called, Egyptians live side by side. We see the wonderful relationship that was there between the late Pope Shenouda III and various Grand Imams of Al-Azhar and we see how they were able to stand side by side on so many issues -- ethical, moral, family, social, even political -- and they were able to proclaim together. And that is the Egypt that the Copts were used to. But the changing dynamics have not let Copts live in any different sort of way: They still fill their churches; they still fill their monasteries; they still fill their homes with their prayers; they are still valued and valuable members of their communities, being some of the most successful in Egypt and throughout the world. I was quite impressed to read the recent Diaspora Report commissioned by Coptic Orphans and conducted here to say that the vast majority of Christians outside of Egypt had some sort of tertiary qualification. It's not because that makes you any better or worse. But whether you are educated, whether you are a doctor, whether you are a farmer, whoever you are in Egypt, there's an idea of being faithful, being the person who shows forth who they are. And for us as Copts, it is our presence as Christians and our being light in the world. And so therefore, again, with that heritage of coexistence we find ourselves today engaged in interreligious and interfaith dialogues, both in Egypt, throughout the Middle East, and around the world, hopefully, being agents of peace and cohesion, being agents of love and coexistence. In short, the Copts have been and continue to be the people of Egypt. The Copts have been and continue to be faithful contributors and a faithful foundation of the society. The Copts have been and continue to be strong in their witness, strong in their proclamation, gracious in their lives, and gracious in their acceptance of all around them. To be Coptic is not to be a freedom fighter. To be Coptic is not to be one who stands and causes abrasion. To be Coptic is to live according to these principles that I have demonstrated today: True to their faith; true to their society and their nation; true to their god; true to themselves; and above all, true to the nature, the image, the likeness, the preparedness, the spirit that is within them. So when you see a Coptic Christian, understand that he or she comes from a very long heritage, a heritage of millennia in one of the oldest nations, expressing one of the truest forms of Christianity, living one of the most faithful practices of Christianity and demonstrating strength, resilience, and adaptability that has seldom been seen in many people throughout history. Thank you. [ Applause ] >> Fawzi Tadros: Okay. Thank you, Bishop Angaelos, for this great information. Okay. The chief first. [Laughter] Yes, please. >> Mary-Jane Deeb: Thank you, thank you very much, Bishop Angaelos. We are really very privileged to have you hear and to hear from you. I have a question which I'm often asked and I'm not going sure how to answer: Is the Coptic language used beyond the church? Are the people still using Coptic language? [Inaudible] >> Bishop Angaelos: The question is about the Coptic language and whether it's still used beyond the church. Yes, it is. It is used primarily as a liturgical language. But it is also used by small pockets of people and small groupings of individuals as a spoken language and living language until today. I'm always amused to call one of our priests in Germany -- and this is one of the families who actually speak -- and I'll call, and his daughter will answer and she'll say, "Dad, the Bishop's on the phone," in Coptic. I always find that quite amusing. >> Okay. Please, yeah. >> [ Inaudible ] >> Bishop Angaelos: The question is: How do we use the Gnostic gospels and the Gospel of Thomas? In short, we don't at all. They are not part of our heritage. We do not associate ourselves with them. They are not seen to be credible books that we use in any way in our practice or our theology. Please, back there [inaudible]. Yes, please. >> [Inaudible] >> Fawzi Tadros: Can you speak up? >> [ Inaudible ] >> Bishop Angaelos: The relationship between the Copts and the Vatican, and the Copts and Russian Orthodox Church. We have an official dialogue between the Oriental Family of Churches and the Vatican that has an annual meeting. And it's quite a constructive dialogue that we're pursuing until today. So it's a very good relationship. And also, in England I, myself, am cofounder and co-chair of a regional forum between the Catholic Bishop's Conference and the Oriental Orthodox Churches. So there are communications and there's a lot of affiliation in terms of our -- what we want to do is our common witness in the world away from the theological dialogue, which is the realm of the international commission. The Russian Orthodox Church we consider as a sister Russian church. I personally have had the honor of being in Russia several times, also having been there for the funeral of the late Pope Alexi and the enthronement of the current Patriarch Cyril. Having known Patriarch Cyril as the one responsible for interchurch relations as well and having posted Patriarch Alexi in Egypt as Secretary of His Holiness, the late Pope Shenouda. So we have a very close relationship. There is an international dialogue between the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox Family of Churches. Although for a time there was also bilateral discussions between the Coptic Church and the Russian Church. So we have very good relations with both. >> [ Inaudible ] >> Bishop Angaelos: The first question about monasteries: Are they just for men and women? No. We have active convents for women as well. And again, they are flourishing. And we've had a few new ones established. They tend to be in the city because traditionally that would have been a place of greater protection. Our monasteries -- the men's monasteries -- tend to be in the desserts. Although in Wadi Natrun, where the Monastery of Saint Bishoy and the cluster of monasteries that I'm from, we're told that in the early centuries there were fifty major monasteries and 500 monastic segments in that area. We're told that when Patriarch Benjamin went into the area he was greeted by ten thousand monastics -- men and women -- at the time. So we have a rich heritage of both. In terms of the daily practice of Coptic Christians, we have seven daily offices of prayer. We have liturgical observance available on a daily basis to those who would want it. But more than that, you won't walk into a Coptic house without seeing an icon or a religious picture. I always tell young people -- because I do a lot of youth ministry -- I always tell young people that you can tell the difference between themselves and their grandparents because I just want them to imagine the first thing that would pop into their minds if they're walking down a dark corridor and someone jumped out at them. You know, the older generations would always blurt out with, "Oh, my Lord, Jesus Christ. Oh Blessed Virgin." Needless to say, our younger people would blurt out very different things. So it's a common life that is in every part. One thing we have is fasting. We fast two-thirds of the year. And fasting for us has a period daily of complete abstinence, followed by the rest of the day which would have a limited menu. We're generally vegan throughout the whole year. So again, fasting is a very big part of things. And I think it's just to live the experience on a daily basis. The church becomes a hub. The ministries become a hub for people. There's always -- you know, for us in England, for instance, we don't have a significant migration there. So we end up with a lot of nuclear families -- immediate families -- the church becomes a bigger family for them. So on feasts we'll have a big meal for everyone coming together as they would practice in Egypt with their extended family and so on and so forth. So just becomes a very real part of life. Gentleman back there. Yes, please. >> [Inaudible] >> Bishop Angaelos: I'm sorry, can you say that again? >> [Inaudible] >> Bishop Angaelos: In Egypt? >> Yes. >> Bishop Angaelos: Is there a freedom not to wear a hijab in Egypt? No one is publicly or legally enforcing it, but obviously there is greater pressure on Muslim women to be veiled. There is no requirement for Christian women to be veiled. >> [ Inaudible ] >> Bishop Angaelos: Okay. The first question is to do with the difference between the Coptic Orthodox Church and other orthodox churches. Theologically we have been wrongly accused of being monophysite for centuries -- monophysite being believing in only one nature of Christ. Now, for us -- I'm really sorry; I'm not trying to make this too theological, but just bear with me. As Christians we believe in the Cyrillian formula of the one incarnate word of God, the nature of the one incarnate, which is [foreign language], which is the one incarnate word of God. Incorporating both divine and human natures together that are divided in thought alone, [foreign language]. So just not actually in a way that says that I can separate them. And since Cyril demonstrated it quite simply with analogy of heated iron, where if you have a blacksmith with a heated iron -- puts on a rod and heats it -- it suddenly glows red with heat. You cannot now pull the heat out of the iron. They're one but they maintain their initial identity. So we believe that divinity and humanity existed in one incarnate word who is God. So we don't deny either of those. To be Monophysite we must deny one of them, and we deny neither. So I think part of the dialogue with the Eastern Orthodox Family has been to resolve that. And so recently there has been an agreement to refer to it not as a Monophysite, but a "Miaphysite" because the word "mono" means "one and one alone," whereas "mia" means "one made up of several." It can have several constituent parts. So and that's what's [foreign language], which is the one nature of the incarnate word that incorporates it, both his divinity and his humanity together without any sort of separation. I hope that makes a difference. The second question regarding the relationship between Coptic Christians, and Muslims, and other Christian groupings. I think for us, as I said, interreligious dialogue is a way of life. It's been there for 1,300 years. And so we have ways of doing it that are real. And you know, we've had difficult times, but in the era just preceding this one -- in the '30s, '40s, '50s.