>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. [ Silence ] >> Howard Bass: Flory why don't we start with you introducing yourself and tell us a little bit about your family, where you came from, where you were born? Just begin at the beginning. >> Flory Jagoda: Well let's go to Sarajevo. >> Howard Bass: Let's got to Sarajevo. >> Flory Jagoda: Sarajevo is a beautiful, beautiful city and I was born, shall I tell you? >> Howard Bass: Please. >> Flory Jagoda: 1926, long time ago? Oh, well you know time goes fast, huh? Sarajevo where I was born was actually full of Sephardim, the Spanish Jews. They traveled from Spain when they were ready to leave which -- they didn't have too much time -- Turkey, Salonika, Greece, Bosnia, Bulgaria. We were Bosnians. And that was-- that takes us back to the 17th century, before they were in these other countries, Mediterranean. All in all Sarajevo was known Aki Yerusalayim, because was so full of the refugees. >> Howard Bass: Aki Yerusalayim. Here is Jerusalem. >> Flory Jagoda: Yes. No, but the-- it was called Chico Yerusalayim. >> Howard Bass: Chico. >> Flory Jagoda: Yeah, "a small Jerusalem" filled with refugees from many years ago. The time came where there were just too many except for them and they were told go to the nearby little town and I'm sure they'll receive you and maybe you can start a beautiful life the same as Sarajevo, so they did. And my family end up in Vlasenica, a small town. You were there, so you remember and started a family. My great-grandfather with three sons on horses reached Sarajevo and started life there. They actually developed a brand new Sephardic Jewish community, which lasted all the way to this year as you saw, which is unfortunately the end of that. >> Howard Bass: Tell us just the name, the name of the family. And this was, the people who told the Jews to go to other places from Sarajevo. These were Turkish. >> Flory Jagoda: Right. >> Howard Bass: This was-- >> Flory Jagoda: Well, they looked very Turkish. >> This was the Ottoman Empire right? >> Flory Jagoda: That's right. And they carried the looks and also what they did as refugee newcomers, usually on a horse. Usually buying little things and going house to house selling and one did what the other did, which end up in the big marketplace that you saw. The same idea of doing handwork and any kind art that you could sell, you see. So the family just went on and on to me, Flory. I was born in Sarajevo. So that is more or less how we started our Sephardic life in Bosnia. >> Howard Bass: And the family name was? >> Flory Jagoda: The family name was Altaras which comes as alta rasa, proud of who we are. >> Howard Bass: The old race. >> Flory Jagoda: The old rasa is race. And all in all continued living, raising children, one died, one was born, children were born. Two of my generation went on to the Second World War. >> Howard Bass: What are some of your earliest memories of the time growing up in Sarajevo and also in the village that you're, the village that you -- >> Flory Jagoda: Believe it or not the first thing that comes to my mind, I don't believe it myself, in school the teacher who loved me a lot faced me and said why don't you guys always-- why do you always speak two languages? Why can't you just speak Serbo-Croatian? She didn't understand and lot of this that happened. All three years, this is something, that lack of knowledge. Why do we speak, at home, Ladino? Sure she's right. You're living in Bosnia and our language is Serbo-Croatian. She didn't know that this whole section of Vlasenica, this was altogether as a little ghetto. Why? They had something in common. They want to continue. They want to continue something that is so precious to them. The women alone had a mission and that mostly was known as the grandmothers to teach a woman what it means to be Sephardic. Why do we have to continue? It's our background and has to be our future for our children. Is it right? Is it wrong? Who knows? But we've gone through so much, so many problems continuing. But it is something, something inside your corazon [heart] works, but you don't even have the control. >> Howard Bass: So you were-- >> Flory Jagoda: So the-- >> Howard Bass: So you continued their culture and the visions that they brought from-- >> Flory Jagoda: Spain and Portugal. >> Howard Bass: Was for them the old country. >> Flory Jagoda: Spain and Portugal. >> Howard Bass: Spain and Portugal. And a lot of it was-- >> Flory Jagoda: The heritage. >> Howard Bass: The language. It embodied in the language. >> Flory Jagoda: The language was first. I would come home from school with my Serbo-Croatian speaking friends and singing folk songs of Bosnia which were beautiful. It was in our hearts too. So we were dual, see. We had-- we knew where we could be one way and where we could be the other way that matches. It's still that they like you, because even if you speak two languages. So I had this a little bit to explain but this was so many years ago. I didn't even know that, myself. It was-- it wasn't so interesting. A child. I mean, you know what you are living that minute. >> Howard Bass: And that time where you were in school and you're speaking two languages, this is in the village of Vlasenica, yes. And you were living with-- mostly with your grandmother? >> Flory Jagoda: I'm living with Nona, might as well learn Nona because without her I will be all over the place. I was very close to her. As all the Nonas, they were the mavens "know how." How would you say "mavens?" >> Howard Bass: They were the VIPs. They were the-- >> Flory Jagoda: Knows it all. Knows it all. >> Howard Bass: They were the center of the family, right? >> Flory Jagoda: Knows it all, and can teach you all. Now the funny part of this that I'm telling you is that some Nonas are not smart. So that family was not a very smart family because the leader is the one who made you smart or you stayed dumb, huh? So, sometimes naturally you have the feeling of learning fast, knowing a lot. Sometimes you don't. So there were families -- "bueno famalia" this "bueno familia," the kid comes from a good family. Why? Because of Nona. So Nona always blamed for many, many things. And if you want to know something and you ask your mother, the mother will say, [foreign language], "ask Nona." It was always that power that the older woman had and that mission was a mission well accept-- expected or accepted? Ooh that's hard. >> Howard Bass: Some of each. >> Flory Jagoda: The two words that are very similar. >> Howard Bass: Um huh. >> Flory Jagoda: And if you mix them you're in trouble. >> Howard Bass: So your Nona was the center of your family and it was a big family. >> Flory Jagoda: It was a big family; seven daughters. >> Howard Bass: No sons? >> Flory Jagoda: Las tiyas. And there's another, I could start telling you all about las tiyas [the aunts] you know, and there too-- >> Howard Bass: How important it was-- >> Flory Jagoda: I might finish. Because each Tiya was able to do certain, different things like on Hanukah every present was homemade stuff. There was no run to the store and buy. You would start making presents, knitting, painting, cooking, everything was done by hand. Vlasenica, it's a small village. So, I remember if one of my cousins would wear a sweater and the sleeves were very short, Tiya Luna made that. So we knew that she always would miss something as knitting. Or if you take something like a pair of pants, Tiya Clara, she usually always for some reason always made them short, see? So these are the good memories. See I came, I came to America, thank God -- I love this country -- with suitcase full of memories. I always say that because that's just how I felt. There was not too much in the suitcase really, but there was a lot in here. And you know how it is, in this country there is a lot of lectures, lot of beautiful events that people talk and read the poetry. I threw all my songs into memories, threw all my memories into songs. And that's why you are playing the guitar in so many songs. Because I carry them with me and you maybe continue carrying these songs as my apprentice and so forth. >> Howard Bass: And a lot of the songs that you learned as a child were songs that you grandmother sang, that Nona, your Nona sang to you and in the family situation and the family-- >> Flora Jagoda: The whole family-- >> Howard Bass: Was very musical. >> Flora Jagoda: They were all singers. Everything that we did was [foreign language], because God gave you that feeling, the strength and the feeling to carry through your music. And why am I doing this? Hey I'm 90. Don't tell that to anybody. It's enough, you know it's time. But this was life. This is, this is inside. And I would say it's Nona. Anything that cames out-- that comes out good is Nona. Sometimes you make mistakes you say well, Nona didn't feel good that day, you know. If you put a little bit of humor, you know like salt to make the food good, it works better. >> Howard Bass: You, you said many times the-- a saying of your Nonas about, about singing what was it-- >> Flory Jagoda: Singing. >> Howard Bass: Unless. >> Flory Jagoda: She always mixed singing into anything. You don't feel good, canta [sing], you just start singing. You don't feel good. Your stomach hurts she believes in a song. She was a midwife. Twelve o'clock in the morning the door would always -- "Berta, Berta," her name is, was Berta, Berta Altaras. [Foreign language spoken] This is old Spanish, Castilian Spanish, Castiliano, 15th century, and it sounds very much like modern Spanish only it's a little crooked you know. A little bit changed; maybe Nona did that. I don't know. But let's not always blame her, poor thing. So, the child would say "Berta, Berta, the son's coming." They wanted sons. I mean it had to be a boy. Not very happy, the family was, if there was no son. Who's going to do all the work? Who's going to have a little store? Everything was the man, so they needed men. Men payed. So she would come in, run get all the [foreign word] as they would call it, and we would run to get her tambourine. And imagine the poor mom, she's having labor and she would "ah" sing! So that's a scene. I-- we would go with her. >> Howard Bass: Go with her. >> Flory Jagoda: Yeah we would go with her, help her. Take all that stuff with us. Or, she was very much into kashrut, kosher, everything had to be. I mean more than kosher. I don't know what she did to make it more. Once a while one of the grandchildren would mix the knife that is -- what did she call them? She called them [foreign language] "de carne y queseria" [meat and dairy], alright. God forbid you mix it. >> Howard Bass: Carne, meat -- >> Flory Jagoda: If you mix the two we all would run to get her shovel. And she would go and deeper and deeper and deeper and then we would have to burn it. >> Howard Bass: Do you remember the first song that you learned from Nona? >> Flory Jagoda: No. I really don't remember. There were so many songs. >> Howard Bass: But you still sing some of the songs? >> Flory Jagoda: I sing her songs. I sing her Pesach [Passover] songs. The Hanukah songs. [Foreign language] you know. These [inaudible]. These are the things that stay there. I don't know where, but boy it stays there. I'll never lose it. And luckily I'm able to teach so I have some apprentice and many friends and students who really want to learn these things. I'm very happy about that, very happy. >> Howard Bass: Well let's, let's talk. So you're a little girl. You're growing up and part of the time you're in the village of Vlasenica with your Altaras family that was so important. They had a lot of shops around the town square right? >> Flory Jagoda: Yes. >> Howard Bass: And there's a very settled life there of many, now many centuries of Jews, Sephardic Jews carrying on their traditions. And then it's the 1930s. Okay, so you're now 10, 11, 12. >> Flory Jagoda: Um huh. >> Howard Bass: Things are changing drastically around you -- >> Flory Jagoda: Changing drastically is just being kind. It was worse then and I don't think we have to go through all this beginnings for children. >> Howard Bass: Right. >> Flory Jagoda: The children were not aware of what it is, really, to be Jewish. In their way this was what they are. They speak at home, especially to Nona, "your Jewish language," they called it, "la lengua judia." The Jewish language, which was that we know. The first as I remember, the first kind of -- I remember that were, I don't know how to tell you this in English, that you are Jewish and you don't even know you're Jewish. But this is the feeling. This is who we are because that's all we see around us. The feeling of the Nona and the mothers you were born with. So there was no way to expect -- that people would expect you to be different. You were like everybody around you. And you come to believe by hearing it so much that you're different. And this is why you speak another language at home. And the first thing that hit me because, I guess my parents were very careful, loving. Not to hurt you by telling you "you are not liked, be careful." All the things that hit you and hit you quite heavy. The teacher comes, the first day I remember the Germany adopted, I mean came into Zagreb where we lived then. The streets were full of songs. Then the German Army would come and march with beautiful songs, very pretty. What was the one that I know so well? It will come back to me, "Lili Marlene." The first time I heard it, I heard power. We were all hanging in the windows looking down. Power. I saw my parents faces were not "ha! bravo!" No, they were on the other side, mentally. I loved the song because I was already an accordionist, playing always accordion. My father came home that day, white as a sheet. But, before that, in the morning, the teacher in school said, "Flory, [Bosnian children's names], don't come to school anymore. You don't have to come to school anymore." "Oh, hooray," we said, "we'll go to the beach. We go swimming." We would look at each other. Who knew that you cannot come to school anymore? That day when I came home for lunch my father comes in running all sweaty and white. "We have to leave!" "Where are we going?" We live in Vlasenica, very happy. Good friends, good neighbors. We have Muslim neighbors. Catholic, Orthodox, Greek Orthodox. We went to the same school. We played and the women would sit in front of the house on the steps with the babies. Visiting, talking, the man had stores one next to the other, you saw them in Sarajevo, neighbors selling, buying. I mean a regular life as I remember it. >> Howard Bass: So you're-- >> Flory Jagoda: So where are we going? >> Howard Bass: Let me just interrupt for one second. >> Flory Jagoda: Please do. >> Howard Bass: For the chronology. Do you remember what year that was. Was it 1940? >> Flory Jagoda: It was the year before -- was it 41. I think 41. I have all -- not written dates now. >> Howard Bass: So this was the-- >> Flory Jagoda: I have everything written down. >> Howard Bass: So you're living your life and sort of without any awareness that other things were-- other forces were coming in, suddenly outside forces in the shape of the German Army and everything changes. >> Flory Jagoda: And all that I'm telling you was right in my house. The family the parents, they were very careful not to talk about hate. Hate that's what did the whole thing the hate. So "I hate you" -- nothing, we loved everybody. Like our children, we are raising children like that. "Help, send some help" and so forth. So when, where was I before? I may-- >> Howard Bass: Your father came in-- >> Flory Jagoda: Father came white as a sheet we have to leave? Oh, where are we going, happy. Going to Split. Oh I love Split. Split is a beautiful city, but you are going alone. Why should I go alone? I'll tell you a story one day, but get ready. "What do I take?" "You take nothing, just your harmonica [accordion]." And when you-- >> Howard Bass: So much for the accordion. >> Flory Jagoda: Accordion, it was a "harmonica" yeah. What do I do with the harmonica? You play all the way until you get to Split. Tell your teacher to get all the old songs that you have taken lessons with her. Play. What clothes do I take? You take nothing just your harmonica. Shoes? The shoes you're wearing. I mean these are the words that I so remember. In fact, I wrote a song with that because it was so meaningful. How I'm going to get there? I saw that she-- he was very different. Just telling you what to do. Well anyway I did get on the train and I sit down in the compartment you know. In Europe you know, there are compartments on the train, six people are in them. Right away it's filled with soldiers, women with chickens and regular really train full of people. I started played and he said "You take your harmonica and you sing," because always is to sing with my harmonica. So here we are on a train going to Split, which I loved, very excited to go. And everybody was singing with me. And I didn't see any tragedy in it at all. I had a good time. >> Howard Bass: And you were maybe 14, 15 years old. >> Flory Jagoda: That's it. You hit it. >> Howard Bass: Were Jews and-- do you remember were Jews made to wear the yellow stars. >> Flory Jagoda: I had it in fact here in my coat pocket. >> Howard Bass: You had one with you. >> Flory Jagoda: Yes. >> Howard Bass: But you weren't wearing it. >> Flory Jagoda: This stopped everything for me from there on. I understood. I understood who I am, why am I what I am? And that just went with me all the way through until I came to America. >> Howard Bass: So suddenly you realized my God I'm a Jewish person. And -- >> Flory Jagoda: Oh. >> Howard Bass: And we are having to-- >> Flory Jagoda: I knew exactly how far I can go. I knew exactly what I can say. I knew exactly before I left Zagreb. The most painful thing for me that was, because I lived harmonica. I loved that instrument. And I loved Eda [phonetic], my teacher. I mean a real connection to another person. I came to my lesson with my harmonica. She's at the door and she sees the Jewish star. And she says, "No! you're not one of those!" Exact words. "Go home!" Now I apologize to you because I'm going to cry. I can't hold it. As strong as I am and as funny and silly I can be, this hits it. Not the house, neighbors, none of that. It's that harmonica. And maybe that's, that's why you-- I wrote that song that you accompany me. >> Howard Bass: "Svira harmonico." >> Flory Jagoda: "Svira harmonico." Because that is the place. So to continue, I'm sorry I'm crying, but this is, I cannot hold it. I picked up my harmonica. I walked out of her house without saying goodbye. And I adored that woman. I got to the street car. We rode street cars all through Zagreb and I get in the stage car and I sit down and I started crying. I didn't-- I don't even think I understood at that age what that hate will bring or-- I didn't know. I liked "Lili Marleen", hey. You know, I had no feeling of being different. A big fat lady was sitting next to me. She saw my star and she saw me crying, she started crying with me. >> Howard Bass: Okay, so you went to Split. And you're a 15 year old girl. You're very young obviously and what happens? Your parents come? >> Flory Jagoda: Well. >> Howard Bass: Separately? >> Flory Jagoda: Well, the most important thing that my Daddy told me, give us two weeks. We'll be there. We had [inaudible family name] a family we knew so they came and picked me up. For two weeks I was at the station all day long waiting for him, them to come. Two weeks already and no dad and no mom. At third week I think it was Wednesday, here I see them coming down. My father double size, how'd he get so fat? You know? He had three suits under, I know. So, we were together. Two weeks later announcement you know European cities in the middle of the Piazza. There is the round piece of stone where all the news comes. Do you know what I'm talking about? >> Howard Bass: Yeah, like a-- >> Flory Jagoda: What do you call that? >> Howard Bass: Like a kiosk or something where the newspapers are sold. >> Flory Jagoda: It's the middle of the piazza or middle of it and then all the news of the day, everything is written. People are standing around and reading. Remember that? >> Howard Bass: Um huh. >> Flory Jagoda: Or do you see that? Well, there was an announcement all the newcomers should come to this station. We were scared to death. I mean, scared to death. By then I knew what fear is and I held my father's hand. You know at 14 you don't do it anymore, I was scared, ah? So this is for the ready-- this I would call a beginning of something that never touched me before. I never heard one ugly word my Nona saying about anybody who is not Jewish, never. So all this things were little by little coming in and staying there. This is why some of my songs are so sentimental or this the way-- this is why I sing this way. I put breath in it, because I'm feeling it from way deep in fear, see, fear. Anyway, so the announcement that all the newcomers they're too many. "There's no room. You have to go further and look to find some kind of place. But for time being we have two choices, send you to Germans because they were supposed to send Jews to Germany in their own way. Or we will intern you. We'll put you on an island. Nobody is going to get hurt, but you cannot go anywhere. You're our prisoners on a ship." And we went to the island of Korcula and I'm sorry you didn't see that place. Next one. >> Howard Bass: Next time. The people who were in charge in Split were they Italians or Germans? >> Flory Jagoda: Italians. >> Howard Bass: Italians. >> Flory Jagoda: Italian, Italy was already together. >> Howard Bass: So the Italian authorities told the Jews-- >> Flory Jagoda: They have different hearts. Oh. >> Howard Bass: The Italians told the Jews they could go to Korcula and not Germany? >> Flory Jagoda: Not Germany. That is two things that they could do and they were very sincere, really very friendly. And I mean they didn't-- in fact, they would say, "we don't want to hurt you. You will live, but we have to leave Split; too many of you." So we found ourselves in a very pretty island. And today if you take a cruise, hey the stop the island. They stop at Korcula, and I usually give them the name of the woman we lived in her house. And she gets all excited, so we're in touch with some people from the Korcula. My mother went first because she was always-- she's a kind of a person who does things for you. So she wanted to see where we were going. She got permission. That's how loose it is. It wasn't tight and strong and-- So she went first. She had permission and found a little -- whatever you want to call it. It was not an apartment. It was not a house. It was a little building centuries old. You know the island is full of that. And we went to Korcula. We were there for two and a half years. I don't think I want to go through all life in Korcula, because we will be here until tonight. >> Howard Bass: But you did, I think you told me that you taught accordion. >> Flory Jagoda: I taught accordion. >> Howard Bass: So you're still playing-- >> Flory Jagoda: Accordion was with me all the time. >> Howard Bass: Still that was your sort of lifesaver sort of your-- >> Flory Jagoda: Yes. >> Howard Bass: Lifesaver, life raft. >> Flory Jagoda: Yes, that was my entrance to new things, and what was the most important, I believed in it. I knew it was going to help me. And what else do you need? So we stayed there. I mean we finally-- we arrived too and the rest of them arrived and it was about 200 of us. We end up, with lot of us, but it was just Korcula. We couldn't get out and you couldn't travel. But some locals gave us rooms, see. So everybody had a bed, or the floor with a mattress, or a rag or a blanket or whatever. And we stayed there for two and a half years until the knock on the door. A neighbor, "We have to leave, we have to leave! The Germans are retreating. The war is finished!" And let's go. We're going to find a-- some kind of a, they call it a "turbacola." It is a, not a big ship but a-- you buy food when they come to the island. >> Howard Bass: Um huh. >> Flory Jagoda: The bring food and vegetables if they have any. So what do you call those? They carry food. >> Howard Bass: I don't know if there's-- >> Flory Jagoda: They carry food. Vegetables-- >> Howard Bass: an equivilant word for that here. It's like a little-- >> Flory Jagoda: It's food. >> Howard Bass: Boat with-- >> Flory Jagoda: Yes. >> Howard Bass: A transport boat. >> Flory Jagoda: Yes. >> Howard Bass: Small. >> Flory Jagoda: Yes. >> Howard Bass: I can see it. >> Flory Jagoda: Right. >> Howard Bass: And there-- they would come, they come to the island with fruit-- >> Flory Jagoda: That's right. >> Howard Bass: And vegetables. >> Flory Jagoda: It was usually the greens. A lot of greens and potatoes. >> Howard Bass: But just a little boat, a small boat. >> Flory Jagoda: A small boat but big enough because we were 31. >> Howard Bass: Thirty one people. >> Flory Jagoda: One o'clock in the morning we all ran. A week before, see, I was an accordion teacher. Excuse me. And I had six students and I have pictures of that. It's very pretty. Their accordion was accordion. Mine was a [foreign word], a little one. That's what I played. And everybody would laugh. The teacher has the very tiny little white one. I have it at home and we have bigger accordions. They were daughters of the butcher, the baker, the meat, that was the butcher. And I brought home oil. Hey, the daughter of the guy that had the store had food, bread. Ah, we were living. We were having good time. There was no sadness for some reason, or fear, I don't know because the island was away from everything. We were on our own and I was an accordion teacher. And they would come to my little room that we had. So my father had permission to go to Split to change my accordion for a bigger one. That's the night it happened. So we lost our Daddy. See he couldn't come back to the island. That was kind of tough, but I mean I'm not talking about what happened before with discovering the dangers that I'm in that could end up terribly. We all got on that turbacola. I mean squeeze, squeeze one on top the other. Half of it was Italian soldiers who were running away and we all sat on the floor and anywhere you could. And we spent the whole night crossing over to Italy, the Mediterranean. And believe me, that was not pleasant. >> Howard Bass: [inaudible] rough seas. >> Flory Jagoda: Not pleasant at all. >> Howard Bass: So your father at this point is in, he's gone to Split. You and your mother and other Jews and Italian soldiers are leaving Korcula to go the other direction to Bari, Italy was it? >> Flory Jagoda: Bari, yeah. Anyway we stopped in couple places. It was midnight for water, for something and arrived in Bari at about nine in the morning, starved. Scared to death, I mean scared to death. We come to the shore of Bari and we see women, we -- I cry again -- because those are the things that hit, you know? -- with baskets of grapes. >> Howard Bass: To greet you. >> Flory Jagoda: Grapes. >> Howard Bass: And they were there to greet you. >> Flory Jagoda: There was the heart, the change of the heart that you saw in one side and saw humanity and human people. They were the place where people from all over were running to because there-- I guess they had a name of good people. I don't know. Why was it always Bari? But all the refugees, they would be coming everyday. Refugees coming in from all over the place. So they received us and I didn't understand. I couldn't believe what was going on. I don't know why they are giving us all this stuff. I had a lot to learn. Oh my God, about people. If you see on one side they hate you and the other side they're giving you grapes? That's why you see hearts. Alright but I didn't cry this time. >> Howard Bass: Not too much. >> Flory Jagoda: Finally. >> Howard Bass: You're in Bari and at this point-- >> Flory Jagoda: I'm in Bari. >> Howard Bass: By then, had the US Army -- >> Flory Jagoda: They received us. >> Howard Bass: already taken control of that part of Italy? Or is it still prior to the-- >> Flory Jagoda: Italy was in between. The soldiers were running away. See? They were completely in between of -- "we will be soldiers," or "I've had it," that type of thing. A man came to us to say there is a room with a table. "There's some clothes there if anybody needs clothes. We can give you clothes, we can give you grapes, but we can't give you a place to stay, because all the hotels are bombed." You see, it was war. "That will have to be up to you." And my mother Rosa is crying all the time. She lost her Majkl [assumed spelling]. She loved her Majkl. >> Howard Bass: Her husband. >> Flory Jagoda: We lost him. See we left the island. So that was another, living with Rosa was very hard, because she just cried all the time. What is next? Everybody is going from house to house, shack to shack, let's put it this way. I went the first day. Nothing worked and we said we were all in the park. Bari has a beautiful park with benches. So, that was the first night. The next day everybody's in the park okay and everybody comes with different ideas. "I think we should do this, we should do that. The city can't help us, so let's not try that at all." So the next day I started going from door to door. My mother stayed in the park crying. And I knocked I don't know how many. I did speak a little Italian. I forgot to tell you something that's very important. Living in Korcula there are a lot of people, a lot of people with different knowledges. They started teaching everybody whatever they can; everybody was teaching. We had Italian lessons too, see. So I knew a little bit of it. And I would just present myself and say "we're from out of town and most of it was "Mi dispiace, Signora." We don't have a bed for you. They meant it, really. Oh, about four hours later as I remember, about four hours later after lunch, which we didn't have, opens a door and this very giggly, happy fat lady, makeup all over the place, I tell her that we, my little story. "Si, Senora, entra. Si Senoria, si." Full of love and happiness, I don't know. Somehow she was in a war too, but it was something about her that was just gay and happy. Takes me to a little, what do they call it soleta [phonetic], little tiny formal that was a good place to bring a guest, which was very complimentary to me. So she said "this little seat for your mommy and we have two chairs and you sleep in the two chairs," with smile and happiness. That's what she looked like, was telling me where we're going to sleep. So that first night was very pleasant, warm, a person who loves-- It just gave me a feeling like hey, "the whole world is not the one I left. There's still good people." Slept the night, the middle of the night I have to go to the bathroom. So we go to the bathroom. There's women running one after another washing herself. It was a prostitute place. You learn. My mother once later said "don't you dare go over there." I said "what am I going do?" So, that was my first night. Later on things developed differently. We met people. People knew people who you should go and talk to and it became a little more normal, peaceful. >> Howard Bass: You found another place to stay? >> Flory Jagoda: That was couple days, but not anymore because my mother didn't want me to go and see ugly things. The next thing going back to the park I'm walking my mother and I hear the most horrible scream in the-- the most horrible scream from inside out. It was Michael, Majkl was standing there with my accordion. See, I usually cry but coffee is good, so I might as well enjoy the coffee. The family was together. >> Howard Bass: He found a way to get from Split to Bari. >> Flory Jagoda: The family is together. Yeah, he was with a bunch of refugees in Split. That's where he stopped. And they told him a lot of them went across to Italy. So, he went, he went with the group. He really didn't know where he was going. And at the end we were together. With him it was a little different. I didn't have to do so much and Rosa wasn't crying. So, all in all that was a very good reunion. That time you already read news that there was a "casa populari" that was built for the poor outside of the city of Bari. >> Howard Bass: Poorhouse. >> Flory Jagoda: Right. They were a lot of poor during the war, you can imagine. My father says we go, so we went there. With his charm, he was very charming and very, he smiled all the time. I mean all the time he smiled. He introduced himself. He went to the office. They found a little apartment fifth floor. And we had our own place. I-- can you imagine this? We had our own place, nothing in it. But you know in two weeks everybody brought a rag, brought something, who lived in the apartments; it was about six floors. So that was another big happening in life. I mean we have ourselves together. Next there was we find some kind of a place where I could maybe work because I knew a little bit of Italian. So that was crooked, but that was life. I went to British and went to American, and the American, I introduced myself and told him who I am. What can you do? I said "I can type" and it was the biggest lie in the world. So, biggest lie. The worry was what is typewriter? I mean what do they have? But then I learned I had lessons of stenography. That's the only thing the guy could I teach. So I went for an interview and this very, very charming warm friend Captain Evans, redhead, and he sits me and I start. And he's very patient, I mean it, very patient. He puts his hand on my shoulder. He says "Flory, I have a better job for you." Now that's heart, okay. He says "we have here a blackboard and every morning a Corporal is going to bring the report how much salvage we have, the planes. You take that number and write it here. That's your job everyday now." Now that was so human. I thought the Italians were the only ones; I'm learning the world. >> Howard Bass: This is your first-- There is a little bit from >> Flory Jagoda: There is a little bit from everybody everywhere you go. >> Howard Bass: This is the first American you ever met, this Captain Evans? >> Flory Jagoda: Captain Evans. He had a laundry. He had a business. I don't know if he's alive. I met Mary. There's a couple of them I still keep in touch, not too many though. You know, they're Harry's age, so. >> Howard Bass: So you're about 18 at this point. >> Flory Jagoda: Yeah, I was growing alright. Growing, had nice, great looking hair. You know tried to look pretty. And so that was a very beautiful experience. And life started getting its own what do you call it? Life, not life as much, what would you use? Its own pattern or I mean going to work in the morning. My mother would get things from Evans, blankets, food. I was doing a little bit side, on the side, was getting chickens from people. And so on one day the door opens and here comes this gorgeous Sergeant, I mean gorgeous to me. And he was very devilish, and he would come in and I mean all the girls would comb their hair and they look pretty because Sergeant Jagoda was coming in. >> Howard Bass: Sergeant Jagoda. >> Flory Jagoda: That is the opening to my happy life. And he noticed me too, you know. I mean the eyes were going back and forth. But all the girls were after him. I didn't know who he was going to look at first. Anyway this developed a very more serious and one day he comes to me and he said, "would you like to go to a dance?" Hmm, I said, "I have to ask my Dad, mom." Everything was dad and mom. So, this worked out and we continued to just see each other once in a while. The night he came to pick me up, which my parents were already dressed to go because they wouldn't let me go alone at all. You know that was the wartime. It was Rosh Hashanah. He comes in and sees a Rosh Hashanah book on the table. You can imagine this man away from home also, tough, Ashkenazi Polish Jew. All he did is-- he couldn't talk. He couldn't believe that this was a Jewish family. >> Howard Bass: He didn't know you were Jewish? >> Flory Jagoda: No, were from, you-- from there on from the school, from the school, from all those times that, the harmonica, "go away." I learned how to be quiet. I would hear all the time my father say, "don't tell them you're Jewish" [foreign language spoken]. And that's when it started with a lot of people that I talked to. They tell me the same thing. They hide. They don't talk the Jewish. With some it stays a lifetime. They never get away from that, see. This is why I brag America, constantly. >> Howard Bass: Now he's, Harry Jagoda the Sergeant, the dashing Sergeant is a Jew from Youngstown, Ohio. >> Flory Jagoda: Um huh. >> Howard Bass: And he probably didn't even know there were Jewish people like you who were not Ashkenazi, right? This was-- >> Flory Jagoda: His mother had no way when I told her that I'm Sephardic. "Vas iz dos?" [what is that?] she had no idea what it was. >> Howard Bass: Because Askenazi Jews didn't even know that-- >> Flory Jagoda: They had no idea. Now they do more. It's more out but I will come and say I'm Sephardic. What's "Vas iz dos?" in Youngstown, Ohio had no idea. So, all of a sudden I continued being separate a little bit, because well, I can't understand their Yiddish. I mean they spoke fast. The whole family, fast Yiddish. Luckily I studied German in Zagreb in high school. It's like German, so I knew I could sort of be in touch with them. The month was April when I arrived to America in Pasach [Passover]. And I suffered that I would be away for a holiday, suffered. I couldn't believe it that I left my parents, see. I left them like children because I spoke Italian. They didn't speak that then. Well I'm going over my story and jumping and if you want all in equal we go back. Back to Bari. >> Howard Bass: Well I was wondering what language you and Harry spoke together. >> Flory Jagoda: English! >> Howard Bass: You knew some English by then? >> Flory Jagoda: Sure, I worked for Evans. >> Howard Bass: So at this point you know Ladino. >> Flory Jagoda: That was home. >> Howard Bass: Home, you knew-- >> Flory Jagoda: Serbo-Croatian. >> Howard Bass: Serbo-Croatian. >> Flory Jagoda: Born there. >> Howard Bass: You've learned some Italian on Korchua. >> Flory Jagoda: Italian really that's all we spoke. >> Howard Bass: And then you come to Bari and you're working for the American Army, right? And you're speaking English. So by now, you-- >> Flory Jagoda: With the American Army but my work daily, my work it was all English. >> Howard Bass: English. >> Flory Jagoda: To get lunch, anyway going back to the Sergeant. >> Howard Bass: The Sergeant. >> Flory Jagoda: Everybody knew him as "Sergeanta Bitio." >> Howard Bass: Sergeanta Bitio? >> Flory Jagoda: That didn't sound Italian. So I said what is this? I mean this sounds to me like French. So the girl next to me, Carmen, she was from Korchua. She ran away with us. She said, "Do you know what the Sergeanta Bitio means?" I said, "no." "It's big time operator. >> Howard Bass: BTO." >> Flory Jagoda: And that I didn't find the humor there at all. I said, "That's nice," you know. I didn't-- there was no humor there. >> Howard Bass: So Sergeant Jagoda is-- >> Flory Jagoda: Because I had no idea what "big time operator," but he Sergeanta Bitio guy -- if the kitchen, they had a wonderful kitchen, good food. Didn't have eggs, call BTO. He'll get a plane. He'll fly down to Africa and bring eggs back. I mean that-- he was very knowledgeable for doing things. >> Howard Bass: He was a wheeler dealer. >> Flory Jagoda: Well that's it. >> Howard Bass: Wheeler dealer. >> Flory Jagoda: Wheeler dealer, alright. Anyway it came a question of he just said, "would you like to get married and go to America?" Well-- >> Howard Bass: This is after a time going to the movies with your parents? >> Flory Jagoda: Yeah. >> Howard Bass: There was a little more. >> Flory Jagoda: A little more. >> Howard Bass: Yeah, that's alright. >> Flory Jagoda: No we-- >> Howard Bass: You don't have to tell all that. >> Flory Jagoda: Whatever we, whenever we saw each other was Rosa and Mihile right there. It has no way of having American date, because it was not heard of -- anything like that. >> Howard Bass: But the handsome dashing Harry saw you and-- >> Flory Jagoda: Oh. >> Howard Bass: And decided this is-- >> Flory Jagoda: Oh, I'll show you the picture and you will see that was a handsome kid. >> Howard Bass: And you were a beautiful-- >> Flory Jagoda: Oh I had a lot of curls over the place. >> Howard Bass: And you played the harmonica. >> Flory Jagoda: Right. When it came to a question of wedding he's going to get a Rabbi from Naples. He did. He did everything that we needed to make a Jewish wedding. And I had all these pictures, that you can show. It's fun and you can laugh too. >> Howard Bass: So you were there. You married. >> Flory Jagoda: We are planning the wedding but I said to Sergeanto Bitio, the stores are closed. There is no fabrics what am I going to make a gown out of, when can I have a dress? Don't worry. He comes the next day, he brings a parachute. Not a whole parachute, but it's filled the whole jeep. I mean there was no room. So, he said, "Here is your gown." And we went to the seamstress in Bari and she made me beautiful gown. >> Howard Bass: Because the parachutes were so good. >> Flory Jagoda: Parachute, well there was no silk. The stores were closed. >> Howard Bass: Right. >> Flory Jagoda: It was war. Nothing to buy. >> Howard Bass: But the parachute itself-- >> Flory Jagoda: The parachute is a beautiful silk. The woman made a whole wardrobe. The whole street, all the girls had some silk. The whole street was like parachute. And I mean it was the most beautiful memory in my life, beautiful memory. So we planned the wedding. He goes to Naples. He finds a Rabbi. He says, "I need a chuppah." He got him a chuppah. >> Howard Bass: A chuupah is the canopy under which the-- >> Flory Jagoda: Canopy with the four-- >> Howard Bass: Four poles. >> Flory Jagoda: History is that the Rabbi, he really comes from Steubenville and he knew his father. >> Howard Bass: Steubenville, Ohio. >> Flory Jagoda: Harry is going to tell you about that, his story. So that, that is more or less my story to you that I'm-- everything is going into songs because that's all I knew. Especially when there is happiness, it has to be a song. Sadness, it has to be a song. Because this Holocaust group that is doing music, the other, the other kind, not Sephardic. >> Howard Bass: Classical music. >> Flory Jagoda: Yeah, classical music. They don't have any songs like that and they would like to have some. I might start, now, I'm getting old, okay. >> Howard Bass: Is that through the Holocaust Museum? >> Flory Jagoda: It is not, but I'll give you the newspaper. You have to read it. When you take me home I'll give it to you. >> Howard Bass: Alright so, you're very-- >> Flory Jagoda: So where we are? >> Howard Bass: You married Harry Jagoda. >> Flory Jagoda: I married Jagoda. >> Howard Bass: Sergeant BTO. >> Flory Jagoda: BTO. >> Howard Bass: Sergeanta Bitio. >> Flory Jagoda: An Army, an Army band had beautiful music. The hard part for me was I had to kiss, every soldier have to kiss a bride. A lot of beer you know a lot, a lot of drinking there, it was not easy. >> Howard Bass: And your parents were fine with this? >> Flory Jagoda: We were leaving for honeymoon for Naples, but Naples was completely bombed. We found one hotel. You had to walk over the rocks -- and I mean terrible. War, terrible scenes. Before I left, before I went to my parents to say goodbye, I find Rosa crying. I mean I never seen her cry like that. With the letter in her hand from her brother Lazon [assumed spelling] telling her that the-- all the young son, not young son, all the Lazon's family everybody was massacred, killed, 42 people. That killed her and Rosa was never the same. So, that's the place where you went and saw the whole scene. You were the only one, Susan too. >> Howard Bass: Near the village of Vlasenica, where the Jews of Vlasenica were taken and massacred. >> Flory Jagoda: Exactly. To the last Jew in Vlasenica. When I was standing there with the flowers, you remember that scene. The only thing that came in front of my mind is there's nobody left in Vlasenica. Everybody is gone. That I think will stay the rest of my life with me, no matter how lucky and happy I am and loving this country. That scene comes in front of my mind and I'll never get rid of that. >> Howard Bass: Now just, just for the record this was, this massacre happened in 1942? >> Flory Jagoda: I have the dates. >> Howard Bass: April 1942, I think it was and-- >> Flory Jagoda: Forty one. It could be 45, 44. I have it written, so if you need-- >> Howard Bass: I'm pretty sure it's forty two, but about three years ago to 2010 I believe you were invited to Sarajevo for a music festival. >> Flory Jagoda: That's right. >> Howard Bass: And that time a commemorative stone was-- >> Flory Jagoda: I have that too. >> Howard Bass: Was erected in-- >> Flory Jagoda: In fact, if you want to show these pictures will be a-- I wouldn't say beautiful finale, but meaningful finale. >> Howard Bass: So it's a stone-- >> Flory Jagoda: Because everything is written, the names. >> Howard Bass: It was inscribed with message saying here was the sight of this massacre. >> Flory Jagoda: Yes. >>Howard Bass: Where the family Altara, Altaras was. >> Flory Jagoda: The most important thing that the story brings to my heart. I have great memories of these 42 people and they'll be with me, plus the Nona. Anytime I sing and anytime I cry this something that I know that there are many, many horrible stories. But each one of them has something that's it's a knife pitting right in your chest, and I don't think that will ever stop. It's just one of those things as they say that will go on like that. >> Howard Bass: Well let's just skip forward a bit into your life in America. You came here as an-- >> Flory Jagoda: They will start me and I would feel like I'm exaggerating, but I love every minute of it. >> Howard Bass: So you- >> Flory Jagoda: I love every minute of it. They gave me life. >> Howard Bass: So, because you married an American soldier it was if you-- >> Flory Jagoda: Well not so much the Bitio as much as the way I was received, the way I was helped the way-- now you know in America there is lot of criticism. They want, I think, a little bit more they should really want, huh? Because they have it all, see. And I criticize, sometimes, my neighbors. "This is not good. This not good. I don't like this [sound effects]." How about the good things? How about the good things that we have daily and this to me is a song, really a song because the prettiest things that can happen to you is to sing a song free, huh? Free, like its, it's there, it's for me. No? >> Howard Bass: So you and your-- >> Flory Jagoda: It's more. >> Howard Bass: You and your mother and your father-- >> Flory Jagoda: I brought them to this country two years later. >> Howard Bass: You came from the greatest, one of the greatest catastrophes in the history of-- >> Flory Jagoda: I would say-- >> Howard Bass: From where you came-- >> Flory Jagoda: I would say that. >> Howard Bass: To America where Sergeant BTO and others helped you establish-- >> Flory Jagoda: Oh sure. >> Howard Bass: A very-- >> Flory Jagoda: I wouldn't say he did it all for us, no. It depends what you believe in. >> Howard Bass: He brought-- >> Flory Jagoda: Who do you believe in. >> Howard Bass: He brought your suitcase full of memories. >> Flory Jagoda: That's right. >> Howard Bass: And how did that-- tell us how that played out for you in the coming years in your time of establishing this new life, a family, children, a home. >> Flory Jagoda: Everything was with music. The kids they all as you saw at the concert, they all sing. >> Howard Bass: But how did that-- how did that happen? Because you got here. You had your-- you had your-- >> Flory Jagoda: Harmonica. >> Howard Bass: And then you eventually learned guitar and you start to-- the memories start to come back to you of your-- of the singing, the music. >> Flory Jagoda: Everything comes back. >> Howard Bass: So how did that-- can you talk a little bit about that? >> Flory Jagoda: How did happen, the first thing that had to happen is for me to go home, and I really see this is the truth. >> Howard Bass: Going back. >> Flory Jagoda: Going back. So I went back. I have everything filmed if you ever wanted to-- I went back first house to house. >> Howard Bass: Do you remember what year that was? >> Flory Jagoda: [foreign language spoken] >> Howard Bass: Do you remember when that was? >> Flory Jagoda: I have it written. Don't worry about the dates. >> Howard Bass: Okay. >> Flory Jagoda: Todos Sehoran [assumed spelling] is the name of the song. One of the songs that these people could use. It's a Sephardic song because I want you to read this letter. I want you to come home, don't go home without reading it. >> Howard Bass: Todos Sehoran. >> Flory Jagoda: Todos Sehoran, meaning they're all gone. The song starts really as I'm walking from door to door, house to house. >> Howard Bass: In Vlasenica. >> Flory Jagoda: My family in Vlasenica, pictures there some. And all I'm constantly going "todos todos sehoran." "They're all gone." Then when are the children with weddings? Todos sehoran. And I want to record this with an echo. [Singing] "Todos sehoran." And that trio that Laurie has, has a gorgeous, I want three voice harmony. Soft, soft and hurting, not happy, because anywhere I went from house to house todos sehoran, nothing there left. So this is one song that is Ladino and I would like that to be accepted with a classical group. Figure it's a story. It's here, take it out. I have to take it out sooner or later because it hurts being blocked in, in a book or a box. And you probably can help me with that. >> Howard Bass: I'd be happy to. [ pause ] Can you talk a little bit about-- there came a point where you started to sing again and play music and write your own music. Can you talk a little bit about how that happened for you? You started to-- >> Flory Jagoda: The only thing I can really use as -- were memories. I mean the other survivors to have the lectures and -- But memories because they live with you. They sleep with you. You wake up all of a sudden. And I went through a point after Laurie was born I think that I would wake up at night scared, scared. And the BTO guy who had all the answers, "Well let's go over there. You find out for yourself then you'll have peace." And at that time he was starting two businesses or whatever to make a living, to raise a family. He is going to buy tickets to Europe but we did and went to exactly to Vlasenica from the airport to Vlasenica. And the first stop was definitely Nona's house, nothing. Nothing there, a Muslim woman, very friendly, received us. She knew of us; she did not know us. And she said no nothing is here. There's nothing left here because the story goes to-- from other people that once they killed them all the place was full of people grabbing things, taking anything they could. They did that to every Jewish house. It's the story of war and that I understand. We went to every Tiya's house, aunts, todos sehoran. And this is how it went through Vlasenica, todos sehoran, they're all gone. And where are the weddings with the young men playing tamburitza? Very alive, truth, see? So this is the song that I definitely want to come out with as a finale more or less. >> Howard Bass: This is the-- this experience of going back to Vlasenica then, if I'm understanding you. >> Flory Jagoda: The second time was with you. >> Howard Bass: Right, but this initial time, was something that helped get you started in writing more music about-- >> Flory Jagoda: Yes. >> Howard Bass: The family and the life-- >> Flory Jagoda: Memories. >> Howard Bass: You had. >> Flory Jagoda: Every Holiday, I wanted to have my own holiday. >> Howard Bass: So you began building your own-- >> Flory Jagoda: And you have, your [foreign language]. All these songs are memories of holidays, all of them. Purim, Pesach, [foreign language], all of them. And used, playing them for years already. >> Howard Bass: So, through the songs that you composed -- and you composed many, many songs. >> Flory Jagoda: Many songs. I think about 19 or 20, I don't know. >> Howard Bass: You also remembered lyrics and put music to them, or remembered tunes and put words-- >> Flory Jagoda: Well, I think, I think since you played background to this, the songs where I put my heart in, and you know the songs, those are the songs that really have meaning. And that's why I can put so much feeling in it. I can't sing these songs without feeling. It doesn't fit. >> Howard Bass: And what was your grandmother's saying, if you don't feel here you don't sing? >> Flory Jagoda: Exactly, exactly. >> Howard Bass: Can you say that in Ladino? How did she say it? >> Flory Jagoda: Well, you mean songs that you have heart in it? >> Howard Bass: Right. How did she say that phrase si no-- >> Flory Jagoda: Oh-- >> Howard Bass: How to-- >> Flory Jagoda: "Cantar con amor. Cantar con el corazon. No cantar sin corazon." "Corazon," heart. "Don't sing if you cannot put your heart in it." Well that's all very connected. The other word, in one way I'm very lucky that I can express my pain through a song. I will not cry. I hate crying. And I know when I'm talking story when the crying is ahead. It's not that I want to. It's like electric. You just put it on, it just comes on crying. So I'm telling you in advanced now, don't get upset. Now I'm going to cry and I don't want to. I think time in my life at 90, it's time that I become a normal human being like everybody. Get away from sadness and get away from these stories. I'd like to be free, if I ever get there. >> Howard Bass: So, documenting, recording this one song that you haven't recorded, todos-- >> Flory Jagoda: Todos sehoran. >> Howard Bass: Would be a kind of-- >> Flory Jagoda: Oh, that has to go out. I just-- >> Howard Bass: Monument to your-- >> Flory Jagoda: I came to a point now that I say you have to, but at the beginning I say, "why come out with so much sadness." Don't sing that "Todos sehoran." That's, "sorry, they're gone." Every door you open and you go in where are they? Then I say the children used to play. The mothers who used to pray, I repeat, todos sehoran. So, if I can do that and finish my mission of life, leave it. Some people don't like sad stories; I don't blame them. You have to feel the pain to see it, talk it, sing it, see. And it's all over the world. It's not just Flory Jagoda that suffered. It is just one of the people survivors that loved music and found the music soothing. That's what I want, and understand me when I start crying, oh I hate it. But this is what-- how it left me. And I love you and that's it. >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.