>> From the Library of
Congress in Washington, D.C.
[ Silence ]
>> Larry Appelbaum:
Welcome everyone.
My name is Larry Applebaum
from the Music Division here
at the Library of Congress.
It is our great pleasure
to be participating
in this city-wide celebration
of Blue Note at 75.
We initially conceived
today as film screening
because we have a very
rarely shown documentary film
on Blue Note in our collection.
But when I found out that we
could convene a panel like this,
I said later for the film.
We can do that anytime.
What I think is most important
is to remember that as much jazz
as you might find in a
university classroom so much
of this music is still
an oral tradition.
It's passed on by those who have
the knowledge and direct experience.
And it's passed on from person to
person or from person to group.
So, what I'd like to do is take a
moment to introduce our panelists.
We'll have a conversation about Blue
Note, about the legacy, the music,
etc. We'll open it up for questions
and then Dan Ouellette is here.
He's actually sitting
in the back there.
He's written a new
biography with Bruce Lundvall.
He will be signing that book
and so we hope you will stick
around immediately
following this discussion.
We will have the book signing.
I think you purchase the book there
and then Dan will be in the back
in the foyer of Coolidge
Auditorium signing your books, okay.
So let's get started.
I hope that everybody in this
room knows Lou Donaldson.
You certainly should; wonderful
alto saxophonist and band leader.
He's basically performed in
every style and era of jazz.
Everybody knows he's a
follower of Charlie Parker,
but he's done so much
more than that.
Blues and ballads and
bebop and hard bop
and soul jazz and crossover jazz.
He's done all of that and more.
He was 2013 National Endowment for
the Arts jazz master and he is still
out there on the trail at the age
of 87 showing all the
youngins how it's done.
Please help me welcome
Lou Donaldson.
[ Applause ]
Sitting next to Lou is
a jazz record producer,
writer and label owner,
Michael Cuscuna.
Like many people in the
business he started out on radio.
He worked at various
labels: ESP-Disk, Motown,
ABC where he worked on a
lot of Impulse reissues.
He also worked at Arista and
Muse, Freedom, Elektra and Novus.
But he's probably best know
for his work reissuing.
In fact, there's probably nobody
in the world who knows more
about what's in the
vaults of Blue Note
and other labels than
Michael Cuscuna.
I like to think of him
not just as a producer,
but as a kind of jazz detective.
I want you to help me
welcome Michael Cuscuna.
[ Applause ]
I, of course, I'd be remiss if I
didn't also mention about Michael,
that he's a three time Grammy award
winner and he's also co-founder
and owner of Mosaic Records, the
premiere reissue box set label.
So, again Michael thank
you for coming.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Thank you.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Anybody who's
been paying attention to jazz
for the last 15 years
will know Jason Moran,
not just as a fine pianist and
band leader, but as an educator.
He's been teaching at NEC, National,
New England Conservatory, sorry.
And as well at the
Manhattan School of Music.
He is a multiple award
winner, probably most notably
for his McArthur Fellowship.
Excuse me.
Here in Washington we know him
best as the Artistic Advisor
for Jazz for the Kennedy Center.
And I was so pleased to
see that's he resigned
and reupped for another three years.
Please help me welcome Jason Moran.
[applause]
>> Jason Moran: Thank you.
[applause]
>> Larry Appelbaum: Okay, let's
start more or less at the beginning.
I'm very curious about the two men
who co-founded Blue Note Records,
Alfred Lion and Francis Wolff.
Everybody here, I think
Lou you probably have,
had the closest relationship
with the two.
How well did you know them?
How did you first meet them?
And tell us a little bit about
Alfred Lion and Francis Wolff.
>> Lou Donaldson: Well, actually I
met Alfred at Minton's Playhouse.
I was performing there and he
came out with his right-hand man
as we call him, Ike Quebec
who was around to keep him
from making bad mistakes.
[laughter] And he asked, he listened
to what I played and he liked it.
He said you want to make
a record for Blue Note?
I said, "Of course."
And he said can you play
like Charlie Parker?
I said, "Of course."
Of course I couldn't.
[laughter] But I didn't
tell him that.
But anyway we got together and he
got me a date with Milt Jackson.
Now it was involved with
that, it was a friend
of mine named Art Woods,
ex prize fighter
who would come to hear me practice.
I'd practice at a place at 116th
Street and 8th Avenue in Harlem.
And we paid a guy 50 cent
for an hour, 50 cent an hour.
But once he got three or four
50 cents you didn't see anymore
because he was running
around doing other things.
Actually, you now being from
North Carolina I was kind
of a country boy on a square.
So he'd get himself five or six
dollars and he said well I'm going
to get some smack you know.
Well I didn't understand
what he said.
I thought he was saying he
was going to get a snack.
[laughter] So one day,
one day I told him.
I hit him in the stomach.
I said, "Man you better stop running
around here eating all those snacks.
You gaining weight."
And he you know he used his word
he said, where are you from?
He said you must be
from the country.
He said I didn't say
no snack, I said smack.
And then I realized I
didn't know what smack was.
But as well we said we got together
with Art Woods who
knew Milt Jackson.
Art was a prize fighter but
he couldn't take a punch.
Every time he'd fight you know
somebody would knock him out.
But he was a smooth boxer.
He knew everything so after I
finished my rehearsal he'd bring his
gloves by and I'd you know we'd
work out, because just getting
to Harlem you know I needed to learn
a little thing about self-defense.
But I told him one day I said,
"I don't need to know
anything about self-defense.
I got the best defense
you can have."
And what he said, so
I pointed to my feet.
I said, "I'm a fast runner."
[laughter] But anyway,
anyway he got to Milt Jackson
and we recorded this
tune, "Bags' Groove."
Of course, I know you've heard it
and it was original
modern jazz quartet.
All of us at that time, it was Milt
Jackson's quartet you know John
Lewis, Percy Heath and Kenny Clark.
And I came off pretty good
so I was saying, "Well,
I think you better make a date
you know with the company."
And I was reluctant to do
that you know on my own.
I said, "I don't Alfred, but."
So we tried this date and I
brought in Horace Silver, Gene Ramey
and people like that, Art
Taylor, stuff like that.
And we made this date and
it was really successful.
And so I got real friendly
with Alfred and Frank Wolff.
Actually I was more compatible
with Frank than Alfred,
because Alfred was nervous.
He was a very nervous fella and at
that time he didn't have any money,
you know because he had recorded
a lot of Dixieland bands.
And the only one he
really loved was Monk.
He loved Monk.
Every time I'd go to his
office he'd have Monk
and Nellie would there, Monk's wife.
And actually the first time
I thought Monk was working.
You know I didn't know.
What'd I know?
I'm from the sticks so
I didn't know anything.
But, we all got to be very tight
and he knew you know my family
and all my kids and everything
so, we got to be pretty good.
And he told me slightly a
little bit about his getting
out of Germany, but
not the whole story.
You know what-- I knew what was
happening so we got compatible
and that lasted for many years.
And Alfred was a great person,
no doubt about it and Frank,
but Alfred was really he loved Monk.
Although at that time, he
couldn't sell the records.
You know he made them, but it was
hard to sell those records by Monk
because people weren't really ready.
But hell, they're not even ready
for them now, but you know.
[laughter] But back then they
really wasn't ready for them.
You could sell them in New York,
Chicago and like Los Angeles
and San Francisco, but he liked the
intermediate towns like Atlanta,
Kansas City, St. Lois,
Birmingham, something like that.
He had trouble selling them.
The distributors wouldn't take them
because you know they didn't
really understand music.
But he got past that
because he got--
we got to making a few records
that sold, especially "Blues Walk"
and "The Masquerade Is Over", which
got on the jukebox and from coast
to coast from New York
to California.
And we became real good friends
then and enemies too because,
and enemies too because I
wanted to go up on my price.
And Alfred would always say,
well I'll think about it,
but he was thinking
too long you know.
So I said well Alfred
you keep on thinking.
I'm not going to make anymore
records until you finish thinking.
[laughter]
>> Larry Appelbaum: Michael,
let me ask you who did what
when we're talking about
Alfred and Francis?
Do you have a sense of--
>> Michael Cuscuna:
Well from what I gather,
I mean you know I knew Alfred.
I talked to Frank a couple
of times on the phone,
but I didn't really know him.
I hadn't met him face to face.
But I mean, essentially
you know people
when they work together they tend
to do what each of them does best
and Alfred was the high--
as Lou said, very high
strung guy, very nervous guy.
But he was the guy that you
know planned the sessions,
dealt with the artist
and produced the records.
Frank, Frank was at the sessions
was basically the chronicle
or the photographer and
astonishing archive.
And at the office I
think, I got the impression
that Frank handled the books
and the business part of it
and Alfred basically handled
the creative part of it.
Is that the impression you got Lou?
>> Lou Donaldson: That's about it.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
So in those early,
I mean we have certain
mythologies about Blue Note Records.
A lot of people if
you were to ask people
in this audience what does
Blue Note represent to you?
A lot of people might say it's
that 1950s, 1960s hard bop thing.
But there was a lot of swing,
boogie woogie and early jazz
in the early years starting in 1939.
Jason I wonder what is
that initially drew you
to the Blue Note sound?
How much of that early Blue Note
material are you familiar with?
>> Jason Moran: Well now it's a lot.
I mean those, you know
those Meade Lux Lewis
and Albert Ammons were just,
just as pianists you kind of have
to pay attention to how physical and
how extremely you know rhythmic all
that is and just play together.
And also as you know some
of the first I would say interesting
things I felt like I learned
to get me to the point where I
wanted to study jazz music was
to play some boogie woogie
stuff, especially in the south.
But then also, there was a point
where when I asked for something
for Christmas my older
brother gave me two tapes,
"The Genius of Modern
Music" volumes one and two
with Lou Donaldson on it.
And so I heard those tapes,
those records and looked
at this man Thelonious
Monk and thought okay,
and this kind of cover,
this red cover
and then this kind of tannish cover.
I'm like what kinds
of records are these?
I mean I'm looking
at a tape and then
at that point it becomes very clear
that also what was beautiful
I thought about Monk was
that he could show me what
preceded in his playing,
but also what was going to
come in his playing too,
like the future of the music.
And it was, it was
kind of captivating
because I thought he encapsulated
like the true essence of the music,
especially from the
piano's point of view.
But recently really like
starting to really get into it
like understanding what boogie
woogie piano is you know.
And also like the divide that
some pianists had about it
after boogie woogie had stopped,
you know like that it was you
know banging on the piano.
You know like the people who thought
about it was kind of like discontent
as they would then think about
bop, as then they would think
about whoever else came afterwards.
Like that part of the history
also was really intriguing
and is intriguing, but I still
love listening to that era,
because I thought those were the
pianists that really set the marks
so high for all of
us to try to achieve.
The pianists like Earl
Hines and Fats Waller
and Meade Lux Lewis
and Albert Ammons.
>> Larry Appelbaum: I'm always
curious how much of the output
of Blue Note Records,
especially under Lion and Wolff,
how much of it reflected
their personal taste
versus what they think might
sell in the marketplace?
>> Jason Moran: I would
venture to say most
of it reflected their
personal taste.
I the-- the only group that I know
that Alfred said he recorded just
because he thought that they would
sell records was The Three Sounds.
And I think everything else
was just what they grew,
what they loved you know.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Well
there was again a time in 1939
and through the 40s when he's
recording a lot of swing era stuff
and then it becomes a much
more modernist kind of outlook.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Jason
Moran: That was Ike Quebec.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
Oh, that's Ike Quebec.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Ike Quebec.
They stopped recording for about
a year when they were trying
to figure out, I think they kind of
realized they were being outdated
in their musical taste and Ike
was the one that introduced them
to Monk, to Blakey, to all
the, to all the bebop guys
and that's how that whole era began.
It was-- and Ike was one of
the leading swing musicians
on Blue Note, so it was almost like
he was working himself out of a job.
But that, it was Ike that was
the-- and you know, and of course,
that was a thing that I think that
one of the secrets of Blue Note was
that these guys were smart enough to
shut up and listen to the musicians,
like and that's how
they found people.
You know I mean Lou brought
an amazing amount of people
to the label and you
know and John Patton
and Grant Green, Horace Silver.
>> Lou Donaldson: Clifford,
Clifford Brown.
>> Jason Moran: And Clifford Brown.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Never got paid.
>> Jason Moran: You never got paid?
>> Lou Donaldson: For bringing him.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Oh,
for bringing him, yeah.
[laughter]
>> Lou Donaldson: Glad you
mentioned The Three sounds.
I brought them to the
label from right here.
I was working 11th, 11th and U.
They're right here in Washington.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: A place called
Avart Center [assumed spelling].
They worked up the street.
And I went to hear them one night
and I called Alfred in New York.
I said, "Alfred there's a group
down here you better come down
and listen to", you know.
So he came down and
listened to them play.
And he said, oh well we
must bring them to New York.
And we made the record
you know, "LD+3."
>> Michael Cuscuna: Right.
>> Lou Donaldson: And
that's, that was commercial.
I mean like you say, it's
commercial, but you know.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Well
I mean piano trios were--
that was a big thing at that time.
>> Lou Donaldson: But
Alfred really didn't care
about commercial you know stuff.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: You
know, he never did.
But he loved Monk.
He loved Monk you know.
He was, well probably enthused
or amazed by what Monk was doing.
So he loved Monk.
That's why he stayed around
there most of the time.
>> Michael Cuscuna: You were
on Monk's session his last
Blue Note session with one
of the hardest tunes in
Monk's cannon to play.
>> Lou Donaldson: Yeah.
>> Michael Cuscuna: A "Skippy."
How much rehearsal
time did you guys get?
>> Lou Donaldson: Ah
we had one rehearsal.
>> Michael Cuscuna:
That was it, yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: But what
happened is he had Kenny Durham
and Lucky Thompson and they
had been playing with him
and had been playing that tune.
So I was odd man out.
I was the guy that
had to scuffle through
and see Monk didn't
write much stuff out.
He had to learn, so
it was really tough.
But I struggled through
it, I got through it.
>> Larry Appelbaum: I'd love to know
a little bit more about Ike Quebec
and exactly what he
did at the sessions.
Clearly he advised the
label owners about who
to sign and what way to go.
But, what would he do when
you walked into the studio?
Was he and A&R person?
>> Lou Donaldson: No,
he did nothing.
He didn't have [laughter] he
didn't have anything to do
with the sessions at all.
He didn't even come to the sessions.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Lou
was self-sufficient.
>> Lou Donaldson: But he kept
[inaudible] from making a mistake.
If I guy couldn't play, you
know he wouldn't recommend him.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Ike passed
I guess in the early 60s.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Was Duke
Pearson, the one who sort
of played that role after--
>> Lou Donaldson: No, no, no, no.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Oh, tell us.
>> Lou Donaldson: No, I don't
know anybody that played
that role after Ike left, nobody.
Duke Pearson was a musician himself.
>> [inaudible background comments]
>> Lou Donaldson: No, no, no, no.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
So what exactly did--
>> Lou Donaldson: None
of those people had any--
well what happened is after I got
myself into going with Blues Walker
and [inaudible] he
signed Jimmy Smith
and that was a new thing
altogether for Blue Note.
That put him in another category.
Then they could compete with
any kind of music, you know.
Up until then it was back and forth.
But once Jimmy Smith
got there it was gone.
He didn't have anybody else
advising him on anything
after that, that I knew of.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
That was also the era
when they transitioned
from 10 inch to 12 inch.
>> Lou Donaldson: Yeah,
from long-playing right,
something like that.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Put
him out of business.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Why?
>> Michael Cuscuna: Well, the
cost of retooling everything,
of remastering all the
music and making it
into two 20 minute programs
instead of two 12 minute programs
and all the costs of all the
additional artwork and stuff.
It was a time when Alfred
almost sold the label.
He almost sold the label to
Atlantic for like 15,000 dollars,
which he actually was
happened he didn't, you know.
There was-- it was a rough time
for independent labels you know.
And by the late 50s as Lou
said, Lou's records were selling
and Jimmy Smith's records
were selling
and you know he got on a roll and--
>> Lou Donaldson: Then
came Lee Morgan.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah,
and then yeah, by the 70s.
>> Lou Donaldson: And
Herbie Hancock.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Big, big--
>> Lou Donaldson: So he
started making money.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah.
Of course, making money
is a dangerous thing
in the record business and it's
actually why Blue Note Records was
sold to Liberty Records
because Alfred
and Frank couldn't maintain enough
cash to keep the business going.
Because when you have a hit
like the "Sidewinder" or "A Song
for my Father" distributors tend to
want to get more hits out of you.
And so they tend to not pay you
for the records you send them
until you get another hit that
forces them to pony up the cash
and they just, they just
couldn't keep the business going
by themselves and that's
why they sold it.
>> Larry Appelbaum: So Lou
when you had a big hit with
"Alligator Bogaloo", for example,
did you feel pressured to follow
up with something similar?
>> Lou Donaldson: Me?
>> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: No!
No, no, no, no.
That was after, the company was
sold when I had [inaudible].
>> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: With
another company.
Not even [inaudible]
another company.
>> [inaudible background comments]
>> Lou Donaldson: Yeah, the
transferred to another company
and they had these-- actually
it's a very funny story.
Alfred never really told
me he sold the company,
but I got a call one day to
come to 5th Avenue for records.
And I said, "Whoa, wait.
Somebody made a fucking
mistake here."
[laughter] Fifth Avenue, Blue
Note is down in Bloomingdale's
in the back of the thing.
So I go to 5th Avenue and these big
lawyers come in with these suits
and ties and had all these
papers there for you to read.
And they said Blue
Note has been sold
and we're resigning
all the of the artists.
So I said, "Okay."
So I sat down and started
reading the contract.
Well you know I just, I
just came out of college.
I thought I was a smart
fellow so I wasn't going
to let anything get past me.
So I saw what they
were going to pay me.
[inaudible] I said, "Oh man,
this is a great contract."
So I kept reading and
the boss kept coming
in the room saying,
are you finished.
I said, "No, no, no, no."
And every time I'd run
into something I didn't
understand I'd call one
of the lawyers and
say, "What is this?"
And he'd read it out
for me and finally
when I finished I got
ready to leave and he came.
I said, "I hate to
tell you Lou", he said,
"but you the only one
that read the contract."
And I just made a joke out of it.
I said, "Well, I'm the only one
that can read any contract."
[laughter] But it, it was
amazing because it brought
in [inaudible] Butler,
I mean the other people.
I don't think half of-- you know I
think these other people had it--
>> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: And he
came in as an A&R man.
So they had suggestions about tunes
that I never listened to you know.
I never paid attention to them you
know, because all the dates I made,
I made them the way I
wanted to make them.
I didn't pay any attention to those.
You know he didn't
know enough anyway
to tell me what to
play, so I didn't.
And if I'd have listened to
anything he or any musician told me,
I'd have never made a quarter
in this business you know.
But what I did I was on the road
working and I played the tunes
for the people in the clubs
instead of getting all pros.
I didn't record them.
I saw what they liked,
that's what I recorded
and that was it right on the button.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Under
Alfred Lion and Francis Wolff,
the label actually paid
for rehearsals, yes?
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: Sometimes,
yeah, sometimes.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Did that change
under-- when the label was sold?
>> Lou Donaldson: Oh yeah.
It was much different.
>> Larry Appelbaum: What else
changed when the label was sold?
>> Michael Cuscuna: Well, the whole
world was changing first of all.
So many urban clubs were closing.
There were far less booking agents.
The whole infrastructure of jazz,
the 24 hour commercial jazz stations
in the major cities,
it was all going away.
>> Larry Appelbaum: We're
talking about mid 60s now?
>> Michael Cuscuna: Late
60s, early 70s, yeah.
And the record business became
more of a rock and roll business
in the sense that people
were getting bigger budgets
and bigger promotion.
And if you didn't sell X amount of
copies you were dropped you know.
Gone were the days when like Lou or
Horace Silver would be on a label
for 25 years or 30 years.
That was over.
It became like a pop business
and I think it hurt jazz a lot,
hurt jazz a great deal in the 70s.
He kept working though.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
Jason, you mentioned kind
of constant exploration of
the label and its legacy,
but I wonder what did you hear
when you first started
listening to Blue Note?
Which artists, which recording?
>> Jason Moran: It was Horace
Silver, "A Song for my Father."
My father is, he's
one of those guys.
He wants to hear songs
about him all the time.
So, he was like can you
learn Horace Silver?
And you know, of course.
Anything to make you happy Dad.
And so Horace was really like,
that was one of the first souls
I was really like learning,
trying to figure out how he had
that feel or played that baseline
on the left hand you know.
And then, of course, then Monk.
But also you know it was a
big thing in the 80s and a lot
of those samples in the
80s for hip hop were coming
from all the Blue Note records.
The drum sounds--
>> Michael Cuscuna: Most
of the [inaudible] records.
>> Jason Moran: Yeah, you know.
So you would hear you
know these organ sounds,
you'd hear these drum sounds,
you'd hear little snips
of somebody's solo you know
from Blakey, you know everybody.
And it was a way of like a
rediscovery for my generation
because you'd look on the
back of these hip hop records
and say okay this has a sample
of "Alligator Bogaloo" on it.
Okay, what's "Alligator Bogaloo" and
then you'd go hear the actual song.
There's now a website totally
devoted to that called Who Sampled.
And you can go on it and
yeah it's totally devoted
to just finding a hip
hop song and finding
out what the original sample is.
And so that was also another
way to really kind of get deep
into the catalog, which
my father had a great deal
of it just in our house.
And then trying to find records that
I thought were a part of the tree
of the chain that came from you
know Horace playing with Art Blakey
or Monk playing with John Coltrane
and then just follow
everybody around.
Blakey with Lee Morgan you know
and that was a way to just kind
of continually explore because
you could just follow the branches
of the tree of each
of these musicians
and you'd see everybody else.
And so one of the-- you
talk about the mythologies.
The mythology that I grew up with
was one that the label was a family.
You know that you had musicians
just kind of constantly
in each other's faces
or being hired.
That's a mythology, of
course, but I loved the feeling
that you could look at all these
records from Freddie Hubbard
and Andrew Hill and Ron
Carter and you know Herbie
and all these Tony Williams and
they'd be in each other's part.
You know Wayne Shorter
mixing it up with Elvin
and you know Sonny Rollins and so
you thought you got a real scope
of the history and the
movement at the same time.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Lou, Jason
mentioned sampling and people sort
of making creative use of your work.
Were you were aware at the
time that they were doing it
and did you get paid for
that kind of borrowing?
>> Lou Donaldson: I was not
aware of it until I got paid.
[laughter] I started getting
checks from Madonna, Mary J. Blige,
people you would never
expect any [inaudible].
He got any angry and he called me
because they were copying
his drum beat.
And I said, "Well did
you ever cover",
because you had to have it covered.
You know I said, "You don't have
it covered", I couldn't tell you.
Well he thought that I
was getting the money
from his drum beats you know, which
they were using the rhythm tracks.
And, but I said, "Well, I can't
give you any money and particularly,
the check is in my name."
I'm not changing the check.
I said, "Well you wouldn't
have even played that way
if I hadn't made you play that way."
[laughter] But it was
very profitable;
still is even to today
it's still profitable.
But let me tell Jason something.
He's a young guy.
You're talking about Meade
Lux Lewis and Albert Ammons,
now those guys played
in an era where you had
to have stamina to play the piano.
It's not like today when they,
a lot of them cross a piano
like a chicken with
his head cut off.
[laughter] Those guys had
to create their own rhythm
because I mean they didn't
have a drum or anything.
They just played piano
and they would--
they'd have these boogie
woogie contests.
Now a boogie woogie contest is
not just playing boogie woogie;
it's how long you can play it.
And they sometime the guys
would play one or two days,
still playing boogie woogie.
People would come by and give them
a drink and give them a sandwich,
they'd be eating, but the left
hand would still be going.
And the last one still
standing would win the contest.
>> Jason Moran: We're going to do
that next season at
the Kennedy Center.
[laughter]
>> Michael Cuscuna:
We're going to do that.
>> Jason Moran: A boogie
woogie contest.
>> Lou Donaldson: Nobody
today can play that wicked.
And one piano player you're
forgetting right in between all
of these guys, although he
didn't record for Blue Note.
I don't think he did but
Michael can tell me if he did,
because I didn't know everybody
that recorded for Blue Note.
But is Nat Cole, right in
between like [inaudible] Hines
and Fats Waller and all of them
[inaudible] Nat Cole came in
and kind of purified everything
and got leading up to the style
of Bud Powell and those,
but Nat Cole a lot
of people don't know that.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: But I
know it cause I'm old enough
to know it, you know.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Tell us
who were the Mizell Brothers?
Because we're talking about this
transition era before the revival.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Well they were--
one or both of them were
Donald Burt's students
and they were studying
privately with Donald
and they were both staff people at
Motown Records, staff arrangers.
>> Lou Donaldson: [inaudible]
>> Michael Cuscuna: The R&B stuff.
So and you know when that--
and so Donald got the idea
to do a record with them.
And you know I remember
when "Blackbird" came out.
I hated it.
I despised it.
I've since come to love the record
because I was listening to it
and I said, "That's not jazz."
And it's not jazz, but
if you listen to it
as great commercial R&B it
is very well done, you know.
And, of course, it created
a whole era unto itself.
>> Larry Appelbaum: So
they mined that area
out and that era, that area.
They produced some big selling
records for the label at that time.
>> Lou Donaldson: One.
>> Larry Appelbaum: One.
>> Michael Cuscuna: All
of Donald's records.
>> Lou Donaldson: Actually--
>> Michael Cuscuna: Bobby Humphrey.
>> Lou Donaldson: Actually
you know what happened,
I won't give you the information
because you can write it
and make a lot of money.
But they wanted Lee Morgan to record
the record and Lee wouldn't do it
so then Donald, then Donald got it.
But actually they wanted
Lee Morgan to record it.
And the Mizell Brothers
were producers,
they were producers right?
>> Michael Cuscuna: They
made a lot of pop hits too.
>> Lou Donaldson: They
were smart guys too.
They sort of changed
at the right time.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Right.
>> Lou Donaldson: Like Bruno sort
of changed at the right time.
Because once I started to making
all these records like "Funky Mama"
and everything for, for--
they call it soul music
but it's really not soul music.
All music got soul.
You know it's either bad or good.
The other stuff is bad so, but
any way they saw the change coming
and Creed Taylor saw it and it
made him a whole company, CTI.
And you see he uses the same
pattern that Blue Note was using
at the end of the you know the 50s.
But he got that same pattern that
got Stanley Grover Washington,
all those kind of people made
them a million dollars just
by catching that at the right time.
Like he said when the music was
changing, he caught it right
at the change and made a profit.
>> Michael Cuscuna: The secret
weapon was Rudy Van Gelder too.
>> Lou Donaldson: Yeah,
oh yeah Rudy.
The sound, of course
and no doubt about it.
>> Larry Appelbaum: I
also wanted to ask you
about the design of these records.
For example, Lou the music that
you make is always compelling.
But then I look at the album
covers on some of your records.
>> Lou Donaldson: Yeah.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
Incredible, really.
>> Lou Donaldson: [inaudible]
>> Larry Appelbaum: Reed Miles.
>> Lou Donaldson: Yeah, Reed Miles
they did that, they did that.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Well, I'm
talking about even the stuff
in the 70s, when you're
not on the cover,
but they would have
a model on the cover.
>> Lou Donaldson: I
would of liked a couple
of those models myself
to get on company.
The one on--
>> Michael Cuscuna: "Good Gracious."
>> Lou Donaldson: "Good Gracious."
>> Michael Cuscuna: That's the one.
>> Lou Donaldson: That's a, that's
a-- that was my wife's hairdresser.
[laughter] I got a
broke rib here right now
where she hit with her elbow.
Because every time she'd walk across
the shop my knees would be loose.
But that's what it was.
In fact I met her two years ago.
It's amazing.
She's still alive.
>> Jason Moran: Would you
come up with the titles
like of all your records?
>> Lou Donaldson: Some of them,
most of them I did, yeah um huh.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Let's jump
ahead just a little bit and I'd
like to know what circumstances
led to Bruce Lundvall being
in a position to help bring
the label back to its glory.
Michael, why don't you take that.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah, I mean the
ownership sweepstakes of everything,
United Artists in the 70s
was owned by Transamerica,
which was a financial company
and a car rental company
and various other things.
And they wanted to get out of
the film and music business
and so there were two guys,
Artie Mogel and Jerry Rubenstein
who did a leverage buyout and
they got financing from EMI.
And I think all along EMI knew that
they were going to default, but EMI,
Capital Records was too
big to buy another label.
So by default they
automatically got all the holdings.
So Blue Note and Pacific Jazz
and Liberty and United Artists,
all these labels moved over to EMI.
And at that time I made a
proposal to reactivate Blue Note.
Because Horace had
turned in his last record.
The records I was putting
out had come to an end
and the label was dead,
completely dead for the first time.
This was 1982.
And they, they told me we're
rebuilding the label genre by genre.
We're going country now and we're
going to rock and we won't be ready
for jazz for another
two years or so.
So, I said, "Okay."
And in the meantime I
had the idea for Mosaic
and so I started Mosaic
and that was that.
And sure enough like clockwork two
years later Bruce Lundvall calls me
and says, I've just been offered
a job to come over to EMI from--
he was an electro musician
at the time and very unhappy
with the people he had
to work with there.
So he was right to make a jump and
so he said you know they want me
to do a New York based label and
I said, oh that's part of the gig.
I want to revitalize Blue Note.
He said I want you to be
with me and do it with me.
And so I said, "Fine."
And you know so that's
how that all happened.
>> Larry Appelbaum: He
was signing new artists
and you were working on reissues?
Or were you working with Lou.
>> Michael Cuscuna: We
were all doing everything.
You know, it's nice when
it's a small operation.
I was never hired by Bruce and I was
never given a list of things to do.
You know when it's a small thing
you just do whatever's needed
at the time.
So Monday I might be
producing a record
and Tuesday I might be
writing a magazine ad
and Wednesday I'd be doing reissues.
It would just-- it was
whatever was needed.
It's very structured
and in a good sense.
Most of us I'm sure are curious
about but not as knowledgeable
about how reissues work and
how well labels take care
of their assets lets just say.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Why
don't you just walk us
through what you actually did
to create this reissue series,
what the challenges
were and rewards.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Well, I mean
the biggest issue is how they treat
their assets.
And until the CD came along
companies didn't pay attention
to their masters at all.
I mean to a frightening extent
masters would be left behind
and studios, and studios would go
out of business and sprout masters.
A lot of that kind of
thing would happen.
Alfred and Frank were
very methodical
in a very dramatic organized way
about their masters thank God.
But the biggest thing in
terms of reissues is A,
what material to reissue and,
for example I would be like--
when I started to reissue I
knew I had tons of Art Blakey,
tons of Lou Donaldson, tons
of Jimmy Smith records,
so those I could do at
a very frequent pace.
But like Sonny Rollins only
made five records for Blue Note.
So I knew I just had to
parcel those out, one a year,
one every two years,
because he wanted--
the thing about the
reissue is you have to sort
of keep the same sales level going.
So you've got to parcel out your
winners in kind of creative ways.
And you know the other thing is
with non-Blue Note materials
the source becomes a very labor
intensive problem.
And so, and often you've got to
needle drop from Virgin Records.
Sometimes you've-- sometimes you'll
find a master and it's a master made
in the 70s when they added so
many highs and so much reverb,
after the fact reverb, that
the record is unlistenable.
And so you'd have to go back to like
a 60s pressing or if you were lucky
to find an un EQ tape
you could do that.
So, there was a lot of sonic issues.
But I mean basically
it's a strategic thing.
You have to know what you got and
parcel it out in a sensible way.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Um huh.
Can you give us a sense of what
some of the best selling titles are
in the Blue Note catalog?
>> Michael Cuscuna: Probably
everybody in this room knows that.
You know, "Alligator
Bogaloo", "The Sidewinder",
hey "A Song for my Father."
How much in the first year, so how
much did "Alligator Bogaloo" sell?
>> Lou Donaldson: I don't know, but
it stayed on the chart for 52 weeks.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: It wasn't
on the jazz chart either,
the regular chart.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Um huh.
>> Lou Donaldson: I
know it because I used
to have competition
with Ed Harris and he--
>> Michael Cuscuna: Oh yeah.
>> Lou Donaldson: And his
"Listen Hear", "Listen Hear."
>> Michael Cucuna: Right.
>> Lou Donaldson: And his
stayed on there that long too
and we'd meet each other and buy
a "Billboard" magazine and start
to talk, well you, my
record's better than yours.
[laughter] and but it
was nice, very nice.
>> Larry Appelbaum: So speaking
of the Bruce Lundvall era,
was it Bruce who signed you Jason?
>> Jason Moran: Yes, it
sounds like a story like kind
of like Lou's where I was playing.
Actually Lou came, I was playing
with this band with Greg Osby
and Lou used to come see
us every once in a while.
He'd say, "This band
needs to dis bands."
[laughter] Anyway he
probably don't remember that,
but anyway we were playing
at-- I remember it very well.
But we were playing at
Sweet Basil and I had been
in Greg's band for
maybe a year or so.
We had made a record because
Greg was signed to Blue Note.
And Bruce you know came to
the show and walked up to me
as I was walking off the stage and
said, let's make a record, you know.
And it was that, I was 22 and I was
like I had just graduated school.
I was kind of out here
working a little bit and eager
and so I've been with
them for 16 years now.
It's-- but Bruce literally, and
I felt like he was the reason
that I could stay there, because
I wasn't selling any records.
But I was allowed to much in the
same way just to go into the studio
with whatever vision I had and make
these records you now unadulterated
however I wanted.
And so it's the relationship
that I still have to this day.
>> Michael Cuscuna: What Bruce did
was, and I think more instinctively
than any other way because he
came from a big label culture,
he was president of
Columbia Records,
which is the largest
company in the world.
But instinctively what he did
with Blue Note is he kept it
like a little independent label.
He kept it separate from
the mainstream of EMI
and that gave him a lot more
autonomy and a lot more freedom
and a lot more ability to try
and keep some kind of
spirit to the label.
>> Larry Appelbaum: But somehow he
must have generated enough success,
enough sales that they
left him alone.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Oh
yeah, absolutely yeah.
I mean the first two years
reissues kept the label alive
to an amazing degree.
You know and then once
people started to sell,
Stanley Jordan got a gold
record and Diane Reeves sold.
And you know I mean basically a lot
of the success came from guitarists
and singers, because there are
more guitars in this country
and because singers
sing words, you know.
So but there was always
enough success to keep going.
>> Larry Appelbaum: In just
a moment I'm going to open it
up for questions so start
to think about that for now.
But where is Dan?
I know Dan's out here
in the audience.
Dan could I get you come up here
for just a second because I want
to ask you a question and
I'll hand you a microphone.
Dan has worked on this biography
with Bruce Lundvall and I want you
to talk a little bit about what
you've learned through this process,
what the surprises are for you
as a researcher and writer.
I'm sure you knew Bruce before,
but what did you learn
from the process of--
>> Dan Ouellette: Yeah.
I did know Bruce before, but I had
no idea the streets it was going
to down and stuff.
And he told me like
a ton of stories.
Most of them were factually
correct, some of the weren't.
But one of the things
that most impressed me
about Bruce was that
he loved the art.
The music was to him art and
he wanted to promote artists.
I mean this goes all the
way back to like you know,
you know to getting
Herbie Hancock on Columbia.
He told Clive Davis you need to get
him on Columbia and Clive was kind--
even though in Clive's
autobiography he says
that I had my eye on Herbie Hancock.
But it was really, if you talk
with Herbie you know Herbie says
that Bruce ushered me in.
And then when he was still at
Columbia he got Willie Nelson.
Willie Nelson was basically exiled
from Nashville and
went down to Texas.
And at the time Willie's manager
was the same manager as Miles Davis.
And he got, he signed Willie Nelson
and say you know, do what you want.
And Willie Nelson put out this
album or sent a demo and it sounded
like a lot of people said,
it sounded like it was
done in his kitchen.
It was all stripped down
and it didn't have the
countrapolitan strings
and background vocals
and everything.
And Bruce listened to at first and
kind of went wow, is this complete?
And yes it was complete and so
he sat on it and listened to it
for over a weekend and
then went, oh I get it.
And then he sent his marketing
team into the mix and said,
listen this is Willie's
special project by Willie.
I really love it.
Maybe it'll say 30,000
copies, but I want you
to really put a marketing
muscle behind it.
And it was "Red-headed Stranger"
and it sold three to
four million copies.
So it was just Bruce's belief
in Willie producing an album
and to just let him go.
So I mean even with
Jason he never said,
okay Jason this is what I
want you to do next, right.
Never. Most of the artists they
would come in and they would say,
I was even talking with Robert
Glasper the other day and his--
when he got signed he went into the
office and was talking with Bruce
and he asked Bruce what should I do?
And he goes, well you're the artist.
You figure out what you want to do
and do it and I'll sell the records.
And so that was the thing that
was really important to me
with Bruce was he believed in the
art and he believed in the artist
to let them find their way, to
essentially evolve their music
and look at a prime
example right here.
I mean when Jason first
started to where he is now,
it's pretty remarkable to let
an artist pursue their art.
And having that kind
of encouragement
and nurturing and all that stuff.
>> Larry Appelbaum: I'm sure
there are many more such stories
in the book and Dan
will be signing copies
of that book in just a few minutes.
But now is I think
an appropriate time
to take any questions
that you might have.
Let's see a show of hands.
Right there, if you'll stand up
and before you ask your question,
I'm going to ask you your
favorite Blue Note recording.
Go ahead.
>> Okay. Thank you.
Okay my name is Paul Ford.
I'm a D.C. native.
First, my favorite recording is the
two volume Thelonious Monk album,
the one that has "Around Midnight"
on it and the sample tracks
of "Ruby My Dear" and "Nice
Work If You Can Get It."
My father was a musician and he had
a huge jazz collection in our home.
He subbed for Duke
Ellington very early years
until he just started teaching
in the D.C. public schools.
But I didn't really appreciate jazz
until I moved to Berlin, Germany
and worked in this record store
that sold all these old
albums and new albums.
And that's when I really
go to know them
and really fell I love with them.
But I met a guy who was
a South African musician
and he told me a story.
And this is a question for
Lou Donaldson that actually
around that time that
Thelonious Monk made that album
that he actually was getting
ready to quit the business,
that he was very frustrated with
his lack of creative freedoms.
He was very frustrated with
people stealing his work
and very frustrated with just
the business and he almost quit.
So I wanted to ask Donaldson
what he knew about that era,
what he knew about Thelonious Monk.
And the second question is what
was it like, the sessions with him?
Like if you started making mistakes,
you know how would
Thelonious Monk react to that?
Because even today when
I look at, you know I was
at the Kennedy Center a
couple times and when I listen
to jazz concerts, something
you mentioned.
You know you have to play and
play and to keep up you know
from the beginning to the
end and if somebody notices
that you're not keeping up
it's like a real embarrassment.
My father told me that
this big saxophonist for,
I don't know if it was
Johnny Hodges or not,
but Duke Ellington he
used to always get drunk.
And if Duke Ellington
saw he was drunk--
>> Michael Cuscuna: Paul Gonzales.
>> What was his name?
>> Michael Cuscuna: Paul Gonzales.
>> Yeah, and then Duke Ellington
if he saw that he was drunk
that day he would make him
play a solo, for a long solo
and they said he would play
brilliantly and soon it was over,
soon as it was over he would
just fall down in his chair
and just collapse you know.
So he would make him do that.
So my questions were Thelonious
Monk, was he really ready
to quit the business how hard it
was, how were the sessions with him
and you know whatever
else you can comment on.
Thank you very much.
>> Lou Donaldson: Well, let me see.
[laughter] First place wasn't drunk.
He was doing something else.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Having snacks.
>> Lou Donaldson: Vitamin C,
double, triple C. But anyway,
Monk was a weird guy;
that's all I can tell you.
He didn't talk much to anybody.
Although every time I saw him
we had a good conversation.
For some reason he liked me.
Probably because I'm from
North Carolina like he is.
But at the sessions I
think we had one rehearsal.
But Monk was reluctant
about writing anything out.
You had to memorize it
except that bad record
that he talked about, "Skippy."
They had to write it out for me
because I couldn't
remember, memorize it.
But anyway, it was easy
working with Monk you know.
He made mistakes here and there,
but they straightened them out
and Monk himself-- see
Monk a lot of people
that write magazines I call them the
wrong people in the right places.
Most of the writers you know they
don't know what the hell they
talking about.
Because Monk was like
a music genius.
He was a genius.
He just-- it was his music.
It was the way he played it and
the way it sound it was his.
Nobody else could do that except
some spots Duke and Strayhorn did it
that way back you know years ago.
But Monk should be put in a
category with Beethoven and Bach
and [inaudible] and
all those people.
He was just a musician that had
his music and he played it his way.
Now he could take your
music and play it his way.
It was hard for you to take
his music and play it your way.
But that's just what he was
and he was very sincere
and very intelligent.
We spoke a lot about
politics and a lot of stuff.
You know Monk was-- and Monk
was a guy that never talked
out of the center of his mouth.
He always talked out
the corner of his mouth.
You know like a fighter or
somebody [sound effects].
So you had to get real close to him
to understand what he was saying.
And I want to tell you a
joke, but I don't know.
>> Larry Appelbaum: No, go ahead.
>> Lou Donaldson: I don't
want to take up all the time.
We were in Yugoslavia one time and
Monk was over there and the producer
of the concert came by and
said, Monk I don't ever want
to hear you say you
got a different style.
And Monk didn't say
anything, just looked at him.
Looks at him and he asked him
two or three more questions.
Monk didn't say anything.
So he went over to Monk's
manager and said now listen,
we paid you 20,000 dollars to
get Monk over here so he got
to say something, you know.
So the manager went
back and said Monk look,
I already got the money
in my pocket.
Said you better say
something to this guy.
I don't want to have
to give the money back.
So Monk said alright,
alright I'll say something.
So the manager came
back and said Monk,
you were born in Wilson,
North Carolina.
And Monk said, something.
[laughter] He said did you record?
Something.
And the manager came
back and Monk said,
well you told me to say something.
That's what I said.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Who
else has a question?
>> Michael Cuscuna: Well, if you're
really interested I just want
to add one little thing.
If you're really interested in Monk,
I highly recommend Robin
Kelly's book biography.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Yes sir.
>> You're asking favorite
Blue Note recording?
>> Larry Appelbaum: Yeah.
>> Maybe Andrew Hill
"Passing Ships."
And this kind of a two
part, the same question
for both of the gentleman here.
In rereading the liner notes I
had forgotten that your dealings
with Andrew apparently
started in the late 60s.
I know you produced
records for him in the 70s.
What were some of those
first dealings with Andrew
like when you first dealt with
him the first couple of years?
Was he gigging and such and
also how did he come into--
how did you get into
Andrew and when--
how did you come to study with him?
And how did you early playing
become influenced by him?
>> Michael Cuscuna: Well in the
late 60s I just got to be friends
with Andrew because I grew
up you know around New York
and I used to go to a lot of gigs.
And I was kind of an interested guy.
I used to make friends
with certain musicians
and I became fast friends
with Andrew.
I rarely understood what the
hell he was talking about,
you know for the first few years.
But I did become friends and
I did like his music a lot.
And then in the 70s
we started working
with him making records
and so forth.
But "Passing Ships" is a,
is an interesting record
because it had a 30
year life in exile.
And the reason it did it
was one of the few times
that Rudy made a mistake
where Rudy was--
Rudy would usually record it right
to stereo and not multitrack.
And then for the one short
era he did record 8-track
and stereo at the same time.
And the stereo always
sounded so good
that you didn't need the
8-track, but in this case half
of one channel didn't go to
the stereo for some reason.
There was just a breakdown in wiring
or something, so the tape sounded
like a train wreck and I sent
a copy to Andrew and he agreed
and it kept popping
up over the years.
Lenny White would ask me about it.
Howard Johnson and finally
around the year 2000 or yeah
about that time Andrew
said you know,
we should take another
look at that record.
So, I got CDRs of it and I said,
"Well it's still the same mess."
And I sent it to Andrew and
he agreed, but I was listening
with headphones on
and I heard an echo
of a lot of missing instruments.
So I ordered the 8-track
tapes and when I put
up all the tracks all the
instruments were there
and it sounded great.
So that's-- it finally came it
but it was 30 years in
the making you know.
>> Jason Moran: I met
Andrew through Greg Osby.
It was at the same time that Grey
Osby was still in Andrew Hill's band
and Greg was a great mentor.
I mean he brought me to the label
but he also started sending you know
the material that we were working
on together to Andrew and
said you should listen
to this young piano player.
And right after-- so
right at the beginning
of my Blue Note career I was
able to study with Andrew Hill
for years up until he passed away.
And he was also the mentor
that kind of like helped me
through certain sessions,
especially the Black Star session
with Sam Rivers.
Like I remember calling Andrew
the night before and he says,
well Sam Rivers is going
to play on this record.
And he's like well you
won't have any control.
[laughter] He said just, you
know just ride it you know.
>> Michael Cuscuna:
Yeah, go with the flow.
>> Andrew Moran: Just, cause
there's nobody could play like Sam
and it's just going to
be a very different ride.
But he also had, I mean the
real relationship was not only
about music as much as it was
about like how to be a person
in the business of music.
And how to think about
the future of the music.
I mean he really had a lot of--
he may have been like one of those
people who has, who can see forward.
He told me some things that all
came true that he was able to see
about me, that I was
not able to see.
It was very strange and they came--
and a lot of them came
true after he passed away.
So our relationship was like
very close and he really,
I felt like he thought of me
as like a son for a long time.
And so I have great love, you know I
heard that music for the first time
when I was in high school
because I had read somewhere
that they relayed Andrew Hill's
music to Monk's music and I was
like okay, let me go
listen to Andrew Hill.
But then I heard how free
that rhythm was and I was
like oh this like,
this is a great ocean.
So, I wanted to-- and went I got
to New York they were playing
at the Village Vanguard
and I just went every night
with my tape recorder and just
bootlegged every set you know.
[laughter] You know I bootlegged to
Lou Donaldson too at the Vanguard.
I had to; it was so good.
But that was also the way
that I could learn was going
to see people play
and Andrew was one
of these musicians who's always
kind of like messing up the mix over
and over again, putting his
hands in it and making it blurry.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Who
else has a question?
Yes sir. Wait for the microphone.
>> Oh, thank you.
Favorite Blue Note, probably
"Cool Struttin", Sonny Clark.
I guess this for Michael,
a two part.
Were you the first, last and only
voice in all the RVG reissues?
Did you, did you, were
you like the deciding?
>> Michael Cuscuna: No, not totally.
Some of them, you mean
choosing the titles?
>> Yeah.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Oh yeah, no.
Some of that came from
Japan from [inaudible]
who ran Blue Note in Japan.
But I'll tell you one
interesting thing about that was
when we first started
doing those I'd get a call
on Saturday morning
and it would be Rudy.
And he'd say man, this-- listen
this is Tina Brooks "True Blue".
Boy this guy's a gorgeous
tenor player.
He's really amazing.
And I said, "Rudy, you're acting
like you're hearing the
music for the first time."
And he said, I am.
He said you know when you're a
recording engineer you know enjoying
the music and taking it in
is not what you're doing.
You're about capturing the sound
and getting what the artist wants
on tape and it has nothing to
do with a listening experience.
So, a lot of that stuff he felt,
he discovered and fell in love
with while we were doing
those RVG reissues.
>> And where are the lost, I guess
I don't want to say the lost tapes,
because they're not lost.
But where are the artists that never
got their due on these reissues?
The Dizzy Reece's, people
like that; the lesser known.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah, well.
>> Was it ever in the works
that they were you know--
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah.
They've come out at various
times and the great thing is
that in 1989 there was
a guy named Jim Fifield
who was the CEO in charge of EMI.
And he said he decided, he said
we're going to not just Blue Note,
but every artist that ever
recorded for EMI around the world,
we're going to wipe out all
that bullshit debt that's
on the books for these people.
And no matter if they had a two
percent or three percent royalty,
we're bumping it all up to 10
percent and we're paying them
from record one from now on.
So, this was great for us.
Like we were-- I was sending Hank
Mobley's father 85,000 dollar checks
and stuff and it was
just a wonderful thing.
And all these guys Freddie
Redd and Dizzy Reece and all,
they all got paid a nice chunk
of money for whatever sold,
because they got rid of that old
barbaric practice of charging things
against the artist and
paying low royalties.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Now both Michael
and Lou had mentioned Rudy Van
Gelder and the fact that he was
so instrumental at documenting
and capturing the sound.
Especially Lou, I want
you to talk a little bit
about why you think Van
Gelder was any different
from any other recording engineer.
>> Lou Donaldson: Well, in the
first place he was the first one
to use this Telefunken equipment.
I remember way back it had to be
in the early 50s he
sent over to Germany.
In fact, they didn't even
sell it in the United States
at that time and got this equipment.
And he got different sound.
If you don't believe me just
listen to "Alligator Bogaloo"
and some records like that.
Those are perfect.
The sound alone sold the records.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
Did you record in both
of his studios in Engelwood and in--
>> Lou Donaldson: Yeah, of course.
I started recording in his house.
>> Larry Appelbaum: And Hackensack.
>> Lou Donaldson: He had one room.
He'd record everything in one room.
And he had that equipment in
there and it was beautiful.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Uh huh.
Who else has a question?
Yes sir.
>> I wonder if I could ask--
>> Larry Appelbaum: Hold on.
Let's wait for the microphone.
And your favorite Blue
Note recording.
>> You know you can't
pick your favorite child.
You love them all, because
they're all so great,
but there's one I'd like to mention.
It's by St. Germain Tourist.
I'm curious about real gone jazz,
the label because I see a lot
of Blue Note stuff being reissued
for a couple of bucks a CD
and I'm wondering if you
could comment about that.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Real
gone, is that a UK label?
>> I don't if it's European?
>> Michael Cuscuna: Yeah,
I think it's a UK label.
You know unfortunately in
Europe they didn't hit it off
until recently.
Anything that was released 50 years
or older it becomes public domain.
The artist doesn't get paid,
the label doesn't get paid.
The only-- songwriters
and publishers still get
paid, but that's all.
And so a lot of this stuff is now
coming out through these labels,
it's kind of legal
bootlegs you know.
It's a shame.
You know the artist
is getting ripped off.
The composers are still whole.
They're still getting paid.
As, I think as time goes on and
we see less and less CDs put
out by American record companies
it'll probably be a welcome thing,
but it's not something that I
like because I don't think
there's quality control
and there aren't royalties
being paid.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
I think we have time
for maybe one more question,
here in the front row.
>> Hi. [inaudible audience comment]
>> Michael Cuscuna: Eric Dolphy?
>> Yea, but the album--
[ Inaudible audience question ]
>> Lou Donaldson: Cannonball.
Cannonball.
>> Michael Cuscuna: Cannonball
was the leader, but if you listen
to the session reels Miles is
calling the shots all the way
through it.
He's kind of acting like it's his
name on the actual session reels.
But I don't know how
it came about, do you?
>> Lou Donaldson: Ah yes.
Cannonball is [inaudible]
and he had Miles.
And I often talked to
my manager about it
because it's a different
kind of a date.
Art Blakey is playing drums.
Sam Jones is playing base and
you know that date they break
into a loud crazy aggravating
stuff that he did.
He messed up the music
because of one reason.
Hank Jones was a very sensitive
guy and if he'd have done anything
like that, Hank would
have jumped up and quit.
He wouldn't have played.
So I played real subdued and it's a
great record; the best I ever heard.
Cannonball and Miles Eaton
played good on that record,
which is unusual because he usually
messed up most of his you know,
but that was a very good date.
And it was hard for Blue
Note because neither one
of them really made big
records at Blue Note.
They were another company.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
So let me wrap things
up by just saying this has
been such a great pleasure
to hear these stories,
reminisce and we've been talking
about the past a lot,
but Blue Note continues.
Bruce Lundvall is sort
of Chairman Emeritus.
The label is now run by Don Was
and I'm wondering what you all
on the panel think about Was
and the direction he seems
to be taking the label in.
Where do you think
Blue Note is headed?
>> Michael Cuscuna: I'll
take the first shot.
I love Don.
He's a great producer.
He's a great bass player
and he loves jazz.
The first time I met him was,
he was producing a friend
of mine, Bonnie Raitt.
And I went to the session and
he, when Bonnie introduced me
to him the first thing
he said to me was,
what microphone do you
use on "Woody Shaw?"
So, he's clearly serious about jazz.
The-- I think it remains to be seen
where the label is going to go.
Some of the records
that he has caused
into existence I like,
others I don't.
I like the fact that he's
trying to involve himself
with serious musicians whether
it's an Aaron Neville or Jason
or Glasper, but his imprint is
yet to be I think heard, seen.
>> Larry Appelbaum: Jason.
>> Jason Moran: Yeah, it
seems like the very beginning.
But I feel good because he and Bruce
Lundvall have the same birth date.
>> Michael Cuscuna: That's right.
>> Jason Moran: And
that's a nice feeling.
He's been very supportive.
You know I always like-- actually
I don't like to tell this story,
but my budget for my first
record was the same budget I have
for my last record.
[laughter] I haven't got
no better, but he continues
to like you say get
a project out there.
And yeah, so and then we
have the support of somebody
like him who's going to go, and he
has to really go fight for projects.
He has to fight.
And it's the same way Bruce had to
fight for projects and so I feel
like he's-- like the company's
in capable hands with him.
>> Larry Appelbaum: And Lou
let's close by my asking--
>> Lou Donaldson: You
don't want to do that,
because Blue Note has always been to
me the greatest jazz record company.
I mean you've had larger companies
with you know bigger budgets
and they could produce
you know bigger things.
But you know like they
said, a family label.
Now the reason, you
can't ask me about that.
I don't even listen to that type
of music since the 70s you know.
I figure for me everything stopped
around then cause I know they
just resigned Wayne Shorter
and they got Cassandra Wilson and
Joe, Joe Lavano and all those,
I don't listen to no
stuff like that you know.
To me that's just, you
know what can I tell you.
>> Larry Appelbaum:
What do you listen to?
>> Lou Donaldson: I
listen to the old records.
They're much better than
the ones they're making now.
You got no records on that label
that can compare to
nothing that we made.
I just heard the [inaudible]
and no record
around there even compares to that.
It's a different category
altogether.
"Night at Birdland",
different category altogether.
Today, today the younger
musicians go to school too much
and it's just like the Good Book.
You know the Good Book you
know which I'm not religious.
I'm very far from being there,
but the Good Book tells
you you can profit a lot,
but you can gain a lot
but you lose your soul.
And that's what's happening
to not only Blue Note,
but the rest of the jazz companies
too; they lost their soul.
>> Larry Appelbaum: I'm glad to
say this man never lost his soul.
>> Lou Donaldson: They
might still have a--
they might still have some souls
but they got holes in them.
[laughter]
>> Larry Appelbaum:
Thank you all for coming.
Please help me thank our panel.
[applause]
>> This has been a presentation
of Library of Congress.
Visit us at loc.gov.