>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. [ Pause ] >> Bob Patrick: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I'm Bob Patrick. I'm the Director for the Veterans History Project here at the Library of Congress. And on behalf of the Librarian of Congress, welcome. If you have not been to the library before, it's great to see all of you here today. I'm very pleased to introduce the VHP's contribution to the observance of LGBT Pride Month here at the library. Our program today, Breaking the Silence: Our Military Stories, is a demonstration of the Veterans History Project's effort to ensure that stories of all that have served with distinction and with honor are included in our extensive and ever-expanding archive. Show of hands, how many veterans do we have in the house? Great. Hands down. How many people -- yeah. [Applause] Show of hands, how many people know a veteran? Okay. Just about everybody here. So this is a subtle direction to you that all of you are eligible to participate in the Veterans History Project. Anyone here has participated already? Please raise your hand. I know Rich has. Okay. For those of you who don't know what VHP is, it's a Congressionally-mandated effort to collect and preserve the wartime memories of America's veterans, primarily through oral histories but also through the collections of original photographs, letters, diaries -- those kinds of things. I've already talked to one gentleman here in the office -- where did John go? He talked about he has this very rich collection from his father from World War II, Korea, and Vietnam that we'll be talking about later. But it's that kind of thing that you can contribute here to the Veterans History Project. The stories that you as veterans tell, the stories you hear from the veterans you know, and the stories that you're going to hear today all make up what we refer to as the "human experience of war." We're not here to prove or disprove history, but talk about what it is like to serve in the nation's military. These stories inform, instruct, and inspire researchers, students, families, the general public on what it means to serve in our nation's military. And it's all preserved here at the Library of Congress for what we call "generations to come." I do encourage each of you to think about getting involved, whether you're a veteran, or you have a veteran in your life, you know a veteran. Grab the materials that I think you probably got when you came in the front door. Take a look at it, and see how you can play a part in very important project that is going on now for some fourteen years, and I am sure is going to keep going on in the future. Now let me introduce our moderator for today's panel, who, as he just has raised hand, has participated in the Veterans History Project, has told his story. Rich Williams is a retired United States Air Force officer. He served 24 years for the Air Force. And since retiring in 1998, he has worked with the federal government as a foreign policy advisor and in recent years has worked in the Office of the Secretary of Defense with the commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the War in Vietnam. And he's the Chief of Outreach for Community and International Affairs there. And I will tell you, the Vietnam veterans are a group veterans that we are very much interested in and telling their stories. So Rich and I have been working closely over the last few years about how we can go about doing that. Without any further ado, let me introduce Rich Williams. [Applause] >> Rich Williams: Hope everybody can see me over the podium here. Thank you, Bob. I also wanted to thank obviously, Bob Patrick, the Director of the Veterans History Project; Monica Mohindra, who's there in the back; Christy Chason, who's also in the back. And Christy was very big in getting this event today. So thank you very much, Christy and Monica. [Applause] And of course, I want to welcome all of you to the 2014 Veterans History Project or Library of Congress LGBT Pride Event. As Bob said, I'm Rich Williams, and I'll be moderating this symposium. And I did want to let you know a little bit about me. My father was a career Army NCO who served in World War II, the Korean, and the Vietnam wars. My mother served in the World War II British land army in London where she met and married my dad. So she was a war bride and took a ship over to the United States to marry my father. So as Bob said, I joined the Air Force in 1974 during the Vietnam War when it was not a very popular time to join the military. I did not get sent to Vietnam. And as Bob mentioned, I was commissioned after eight years of enlisted service. And then I retired from the Air Force in 1998. Among my assignments, I was a nuclear launch officer, intelligence analyst, and commander on several occasions. I served before as a gay service member before Don't Ask, Don't Tell and for four years during the Don't Ask, Don't Tell period. Prior to DADT, I saw many fellow airmen unfairly discharged in witch-hunts targeting gay service members. And not much changed during DADT, with many fellow gay colleagues being discharged under DADT. After the Air Force, I joined the civil service, as Bob mentioned, and I served foreign policy assignments as the Foreign Policy Advisor for NATO, for southern Europe and Italy and Turkey. And for the last five years, I've been working here in Washington, as Bob mentioned, for the Vietnam War Commemoration. I had one other major accomplishment in 1958, when I was four, I was awarded the title of Mr. Alaska. So I'm very proud of that. [Laughter] I also wanted to mention the project to interview veterans, I had the honor and privilege of conducting Tammy's interview for about two hours a few months ago -- very fascinating interview. And then I also taped an interview. And I can't stress to all of you, if you've served your country, be sure and come in and do an interview. Doesn't matter if you only serve for two years, or four years, or twenty years, they're all important -- all of the stories. Doesn't matter if you served in combat; your story is extremely important. What we'll be doing now is each panelist will introduce themselves in order, and they'll have three minutes to do that. And then afterwards I'll ask some questions. So if you'd like to start, please. >> Kristin Beck: Thank you. So my name is Kristin Beck. I was a Navy SEAL for 20 years. That's about it. [Laughter] Can I borrow your notes for a second? I didn't make any notes. So I was Navy SEALS for 20 years. I joined in 1990 in response to Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Just as most of my family does when a war starts breaking out, you put your hand in the air and you volunteer, and just as many in the audience have done also. You know, that's our duty, you know, to serve our country the best we can. And whether it be in a military, or civil service, or doing anything, just working on local governments, or school teachers, or anything else, it's our duty to serve. And that's pretty much what I did. And my twenty years is up. I served. I'm not stopping. And that's also another one of our duties: You can never sit back. It's always us as a group making our country better at every minute. And so that's what I want to do. I see things right now that I'm kind of upset with. I don't like some of the directions we're going in, and I don't like it took since 2009 to have this event in the Library of Congress. So since 2009 Christy's been fighting for this meeting, a historic event, having an LGBT panel in the Library of Congress. This is huge and everyone here is a part of that. So everyone here is a part of history. And that's what it's all about, us changing these things. That's what my mission is, that's what my mission was in the SEAL teams. Do I have thirty seconds to tell one story? >> Rich Williams: Sure, you have thirty seconds. He's starting the timer. >> Kristin Beck: So even while I was in the SEAL teams, there was always if I saw something wrong, I would try to fix it. I would do the best I could. In Afghanistan, I was in a going into a compound to capture a pretty high-level Al-Qaeda operative. We're getting in the middle of the compound; we're sneaking in there real good, getting nice and sneaky. [Inaudible] sneaky peaky like that. But a big noise happened. Something happened, so they started waking up. And it turned into kind of a fire fight. We're going into a building where the guy actually resided. It was his bedroom. He gets up, goes for his gun, some more guys start coming in. There's a little baby crib sitting right there in the middle of the room. His wife on the floor already, you know, screaming, crying. He's already picking up -- there's weapons coming in. There's bullets flying. I run to the crib and I grab the baby, and hold the baby in my arms, and run back out through what we were doing to try to save the baby. You see something wrong, try to fix it. And that's all I was doing. It just turned into kind of an instinct thing. And if I can just leave that one little tiny story for you, there's things wrong all over the place. When you see it, do the best you can to fix it. And that's kind of what I've been trying to do now for the past couple of years as I came out. I'm transgender and I'm proud of that. But I like to even go past a little bit of that being transgendered. And this goes when we go into the military and we talk about transgender in the military. I'm a human being. I'm an American. And I deserve dignity and respect. And that's what the real point is. So I don't want people to look at me as transgendered; I want you to look at me as an American. I deserve this. We all deserve it -- men, women, children -- all of us. We are all Americans and we are human beings. We're all the same. We deserve a lot more than we're giving each other. It's a terrible thing when we -- sometimes we're just so mean to each other. Can we step up and start being human beings? That's my mission. >> Rich Williams: You're on. >> Joanna Eyles: Hello. My name is Joanna Eyles. And I'm a transgender veteran. I joined the Army in 1999 straight out of high school. I served six years as a satellite communications specialist. I was stationed at Fort Belvoir, Virginia; Camp Carroll, Korea; and Camp Roberts, California. The entire time I was in the Army, I was closeted and very fearful for my career because as a transgender person, I could be kicked out at a moment's notice if anybody found out. I'm here today to speak about my experience, to let you know that transgender people are in every walk of life, every career, every branch of the service, going back decades. And I want to share my experience with you so you can have insight into what it's like to be fearful and have to hide. I can't take up three minutes with my introduction. I'm not that interesting. Tough act to follow. >> Kristin Beck: Sorry. >> Rich Williams: Eric, you're on. >> Eric Perez: I'm Eric Perez. So I'm just going to say this right now -- I'm very awkward when I'm speaking in public settings. Because I was in the Army for four years. I was in military police. I was in Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri; Fort Dix, New Jersey. And I did a tour during OEF from '08 to '09 for thirteen months. I was in Basra and Balad, Iraq. During the beginning of my service, I was closeted -- well, in the military I was closeted; my family and everybody back home knew. And then when I decided to come out to my platoon, I believe it was in Balad. They were very supportive; the rest of my unit wasn't. And then I faced a form of discrimination, a situation where one of my NCOs attacked me by the end of my tour. And they kind of just pushed it under the rug. And so I felt neglected. And when I came back to the States from Iraq, I kind of just said, "Screw you guys. I'm done." Because being in a situation like war, you have a bond with those soldiers because they put their lives in front of yours, like, to protect you. They will take a bullet for you. And they love you. They're your brothers and sisters. So I felt neglected, I felt betrayed by my own family. And it took me a while to come back. My platoon was amazing. They will always be my family. The rest of my unit was awful. Recently I've started getting back. I got back with the VA, and now I'm working with AmeriCorps VISTA. They have a program called CADCA VetCorps. It's called Community Anti-Drug Coalitions of America. And their project is to help veterans, service members, and their families with issues like substance abuse, mental health, housing, and unemployment. And I'm here for them, my brothers and sisters that come back. And they're LGBT, and they just feel alone because you do feel alone. It's really hard when you come back to the States, especially with civilians. And that's not to say anything against civilians. But being in such a situation, like, high-tense and violence, you have a bond. And you'll never experience that bond ever again. So when soldiers say that they miss war, it's not that they miss war; it's just that they miss that bond, that family, your brothers, your sisters. And so I'm here for them to address those issues and raise awareness about them. Because they're out there alone. And right now there's no records, there's not data, there's no history on LGBT veterans, service members and their families, and with homelessness, substance abuse, housing, and unemployment. So yeah. [Laughter] >> Tammy Smith: Thanks. I'm Tammy Smith. And I have to give my disclaimer. I'm here in my personal capacity today. So I'm still serving in the military, so I am still on active duty. So -- but anything I say today is my personal opinion and I don't represent Department of Defense policy. I came into the military in 1986 almost accidentally. I was reading my Future Farmers of America magazine and it said, "No money for college? Let the Army show you how. Send for free information." [Laughter] And that free information was a ROTC scholarship application. And I ended up, then, at the University of Oregon. And it was about that time that I discovered that I was a lesbian. And I knew right away that it was something I needed to keep a secret because my only way out of that small town was through college. So I ended up serving in the military up until this point -- up until the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell -- closeted. And I've described my life as I've lived a compartmentalized life. I literally had two separate sets of friends: I had my regular folks that I worked with and were part of my unit, and they were all great people; and then I had my off-the-grid friends, and those were my members of the LGBT community. And those were the ones I felt at home with. And as you go through service, the rules are very strict between those two communities. You know, with your LGBT folks that what you do is that if you see one in the PX, you just pretend like you don't even know each other. And that's how you had to react among your friends in order to just survive. Later as I met my wife, Tracy -- who is here -- we would sometimes be someplace, and she knew if she heard someone go, "Hey, ma'am," she would know to just sort of melt away and pretend like she wasn't even there with me. And then we would catch up again later. So we actually had to pretend like my family did not exist. When I was promoted to brigadier general, we talked about it -- and this was after the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell -- and we made a conscious choice that of course we would be ourselves authentically. So when I came out and I was billed as the first openly-gay general -- the first publicly-known one -- I didn't come out as a statement of my sexuality; I came out as a statement of my family, that "This is my family." And my family may not look like your family, but this is my family. And I came out for that reason and to honor all of the people who work so hard to get us to the point where Don't Ask, Don't Tell was finally repealed. >> Rich Williams: Thank you. Okay. What we'll do now is I'm going to ask four questions. Each panelist will have two minutes, and we'll just go in order from Kristin down. The first question is: How do you feel the military experience has changed since the military now allows for military members to serve and be openly gay, lesbian, or bisexual? >> Kristin Beck: So I guess I have this one first. So how has it changed since the acceptance of LGB? For me it hasn't changed at all. I'm the "T." I'm the left out piece. And that's something that I think about all the time. It's something that I think that we should start considering pretty heavily, is that we are growing as a society, we are growing as a country. And we're getting a lot better. There's approximately 15,000 transgendered folks still in hiding in the military, in the service. I spoke at a lot of the agencies a few weeks ago. And they have open policies. And everybody talks about security and everything else. It has nothing to do with that. There's so many misinformation campaigns or whatever they are. There's so much going on right now that nobody really knows about to really take a deep, hard look at what's going on. So how has it changed as far as I consider it from the LGB being accepted? I think it's better. I was at West Point giving a talk a couple months ago. And just meeting those cadets, all the ones that are open in the GSA -- in the Gay Straight Alliance -- those kids are doing great. That's the future of our country. They're happy; they're working hard; they're open; they're not having to hide; they're not having to compartmentalize, like Tammy was speaking of. They're going to do much better. And I think our military overall is doing much better because we are accepting of who we are as Americans. And that's part of America, the LGBT community. And the better we can be as a military, accepting all of us to serve, the better we're going to be able to serve. And that's the point: The military's a microcosm of America. If you don't accept that, then go somewhere else. >> Joanna Eyles: Well, like Kristin, I'm transgender. So transgender people aren't allowed to serve in the military currently. Hopefully that will change. But I spoke with a lot of my gay and lesbian friends who are still serving or what have served, and they think that the military's improved since the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. They think that they're better able to perform their jobs, be more open with their friends, their family, their colleagues about who they are. Not have to hide, not have to -- as Tammy said -- compartmentalize their life. Because I had to go through a lot of that. I had one life at work and then another life at home. I had one set of friends who I would hang out with on base, and then a completely different set of friends who I would hang out with off base. You know, leading a double life is difficult. It's hard, and it wears down on you. If I had been able to serve openly, would I have stayed in the military? I'm not sure. But I would have considered it. >> Eric Perez: I think it's also changed for the better. I mean, other than, like, transgender -- the ban. But other than that, I think it has gotten into better strides. The only thing is, like, I think they need to realize that there's different MOSs. And certain MOSs like infantry and engineers, it's a little more hard for them to progress. But as long as we still have those people that are fighting or LGBT rights in the military, I think that will come in great strides. The only thing is, like, veterans -- like I said, this is from my point of view -- veterans, because being a combat veteran there's a lot of generations out there that have PTSD; and they're gay; and they've been closeted, or bisexual, and lesbian. And like I said, they're just out there and we don't know it. And they're in the shadows. And we have to go out there and find them. I have buddies that I served with that are facing issues, and I talk to them every night. And they just -- it's like so many issues that need to be addressed. But as long as we have people like Kristin, and Joanna, and Tammy, I think we'll get there -- and all of you guys. And yeah, just keep working together for the better. >> Tammy Smith: From my perspective, it has improved. The first thing that went away on the day that Don't Ask, Don't Tell was repealed was the constant, constant fear. You lived in constant fear of discovery of someone, through whatever reason, wanting to turn you in. That was always just what framed your life, was that fear that you were going to be outed just for being who you were. And what was particularly hard in that circumstance is because when you serve -- anybody who has worn the uniform knows this -- you love wearing that uniform. And somehow you feel as if you get outed and discharged under Don't Ask, Don't Tell that somehow you have done something that dishonored your service. And so it's this weird conflict that goes into the person. So that fear now has gone away. And people are able to serve from this point on without that underlying fear. And so from my perspective, I don't live with that fear. And I will just couch that my experience, of course, as a general is very different than the experiences of what would be our enlisted soldiers and some of our junior officers. And I realize that, and I acknowledge that. But I know that we all now live without just that underlying fear. >> Rich Williams: Thank you. The next question: How have your relationships with your family and former or current service members changed since you came out as LGBT? >> Kristin Beck: My relationships with my family have changed quite a bit. It's tough for some of them to take it. And I think they're more worried about what society thinks than what they really think sometimes. So it's still a little strange for some of my family. Some of my family has open arms. My father, surprisingly enough, who seems very strict and football coach, he's full on board with it. I know he even uses feminine pronouns for me, which is kind of cool. [Laughter] But I think it changes drastically for everyone when something like this, it's fairly drastic. And as far as the military goes -- the SEAL team members -- I mean, I had one of the guys who was one of the plank gunners from SEAL Team Six from way back in the old days. So I was standing amongst a group of people, and he is pretty tall. He's pretty big -- he's like a bear of a guy. And he was walking towards me. He was like, "Chris." And he's pointing like that, "Chris." And everybody kind of spreads apart. It's like the Red Sea is spreading. So everybody's, like, you know, looking, getting ready for me to get punched in the face or something. So he's walking towards me. And here up close he says, "I don't know whether I should kiss you or shake your hand." [Laughter] So I think it's surprising. You know, once you're a part of that brotherhood -- as was being pointed out -- once you're a part of brother- and sisterhood, the military, it's surprising. So when he made that comment, "I don't know whether to kiss you or shake your hand," one of the other guys was like, "Hey, why do you feel like that?" He says, "Well, tell you what. I've known Chris for twenty years. And that sister is my brother." And that kind of, like, sums it all up. There's definitely some bad attitudes of some guys out there that have some problem with it. And they throw the religion thing out, or they throw the conservative out, or they give you those points of view. But most of that I can debunk with just a couple of words, you know? I'm an American and instead of all the hate, how about love? Especially for religion. When you start doing all the religion thing, isn't that the primary, you know, factor behind all religions is supposed to be love? You know, love everybody as you would yourself, as you would your god, no matter who your god is. So it's getting there. It's changed. But I'm getting through it. It's going to be okay. We're going to all be okay. Thank you. >> Joanna Eyles: Well, I'd say my relationships with friends, family, people I serve with have greatly improved since I came out. I came out officially -- I started the process about two and a half years ago. I finally made the transition to living full-time as a woman six months ago. And, you know, since then changing my name, changed my appearance, I've gotten nothing but acceptance and love from people I served with. Gotten messages of encouragement from people I haven't talked to in years who have found me through social media, through mutual friends. And they'll just randomly send me a message saying, "Hey, Joe. You're still the same person. I know that, and I still love you like a brother." You know? Except, you know, they don't owe me money like my real brother does. [Laughter] But, you know, the words of encouragement and the love I've gotten from people in the military has really shown me that things can change. Back when I was serving, homophobic jokes were thrown around, like, you know, regular conversation pieces. I don't know if that's changed in the military, but people are more sensitive to LGBT issues, I think. And the outpouring of support that I've gotten has shown me that people's opinions can change, people's thoughts can change. When you finally know someone who is going through that, then your entire perspective can shift and you can see the world through a different lens. >> Eric Perez: From my experience, I came out when I was sixteen. My family, my mother stopped talking to me for, like, four years after that. And she actually decided to, well, embrace me when I did my tour in Iraq. And that's when I came back. She was accepting. And she was, like, "I love you. I don't want to lose you." But from my experience -- my MOS; I was military police, an MP -- there's a lot more people who are less progressive in my opinion or I feel. Like I said, my unit was awful. I was, you know, tackled by another NCO. But my platoon, there's really good people in my platoon that really -- there's one incident where one of the guys that I was friends with -- this is before I came out. Or some people knew, some people didn't. They were inspecting some of our stuff because a certain situation occurred when we were overseas and they were looking for straight porn. And then they held my electronics like a day, like, maybe a week longer. And I was like, "Why? Why?" Like, "I'm not straight." I was so frustrated that I yelled at some my friends. And so this one friend of mine, he was super conservative. He was a total left. But we had good conversations. And he told me once if I ever found out one of my friends were gay, "I would never be friends with him." And I was, like, "Oh, okay." [Laughter] So when they were holding my electronics and I was waiting for it, I yelled at my friends that did know, like, "I should just tell them. I should just tell them I'm gay. They'll find gay porn." And then my friend turned around he's like, "You are?" And I was like, "What?" I didn't realize -- didn't hit me. He's like, "You're gay?" And I was like, "Yeah." And then he was just like, and we kept on walking and just hanging out. So I mean, there's really good people out there, you know? You'll still find people that are not going to be accepting, but that's I think in every kind of culture, community. But yeah. I'm very happy with my platoon. Third platoon. [Laughter] >> Tammy Smith: I think for me that things did improve. When I was promoted, we thought there was going to be a little bump, like, there would be a Facebook and maybe in blogs. We didn't expect it to be, like, news, like, all over the country, and the world from some of the papers that we got. And so I heard from a lot of people from my past. And it was very, very positive. I can tell that you no one went out of their way to send me a negative email, note, or Facebook post. Every bit of it was positive. And from people I heard in the past, they said, "That's very, very cool. Oh, my God, you're married. That's neat. Congratulations on that." They didn't know. My hometown of Oakland, Oregon -- very small town in the western part of Oregon -- they, on Veterans Day, they had a celebratory reception for me in honor of my promotion. And then our small town newspaper, when they do the end of the year, like, the top ten stories, my story on there was couched as, "And among the ten we have one positive piece of news for the county." And it was about my promotion and my being the first openly gay general officer. The other thing that I would say that perhaps has improved -- not about my life personally -- but the thing about the brotherhood that you were talking about is that before the repeal, before an LGB person could serve openly, it could be used as blackmail for sexual harassment and for sexual assault because somebody could turn you in, and you could be kicked out of the military for your orientation. And by removing that -- Don't Ask, Don't Tell removed that -- and so there is now one less piece of manipulation that can be used in general for people who are serving. >> Rich Williams: Thank you, Tammy. I wanted to mention one thing, too. Tammy and her wife had a housewarming. They live on base. They're the first flag officers to live on a military installation that I'm aware of, at least openly. And we went to their housewarming. And it was amazing that all of the local flag officers and their wives came, including General Dunbar, the commander in Afghanistan's wife. >> Tammy Smith: Yes, yes. Dunbar was there. >> Rich Williams: So I just wanted to mention that. I thought that was a very positive sign. >> Tammy Smith: Oh, no. Thank you [inaudible]. >> Rich Williams: Of acceptance. >> Tammy Smith: It was. We have moved onto Fort Belvoir. And we live in general officer housing on the road to the officer's club. And I tell you what, our neighbors have been wonderful. Within a week of moving in, one of them showed up with a plant and another one with, you know, a fruit cake. [Laughter] So just like our regular military neighborhood. >> Rich Williams: For the next question: Do you believe there are service members who are still quote "in the closet" who don't feel comfortable being openly gay while serving? If so, why do you think they feel this way? >> Kristin Beck: I 100% believe there are people in the closet all over the place. I think in regular society you'll find that if you work in the civilian workforces, you're going to find a number of people in the closet. And I don't really totally like that term "closet." I like the term kind of, like, being bottled up. And everybody has those little bottles. We have our little things that we do. And straight people, gay, lesbian, trans, whatever you are, everybody has those little compartments, those little bottles they put things in. Think of it as a shelf because it sometimes gets shook up a little bit, and the bottles fall off and they break open. That's where the problems occur. So as long as you have people and as long as we're bottling up our feelings, as long as we're bottling up our emotions and we're keeping things crushed like that, and we're denying ourselves humanity -- our own human emotions, our own who we are as people -- you're sticking those things inside those bottles and those things break. When they break open, that's when the problems occur. And so as we start figuring this out, and as we look, you know, at our society, and as we look at it, and maybe we don't need to have everything bottled up so tightly. And that's really what it's about is that, yes, there are people that do all kinds of things. You know, I always wanted to be a girl on a roller derby team here in DC. [Laughter] So [inaudible] Kristy, roller derby. But I could also be a lot of bottles. And I think that's why there's a feminist movement. That's why -- because we do that to each other. We make ourselves do these things to each other just by our attitudes and by our actions. And so as we start figuring this out and as we start becoming better, we can start taking the mason jars, and taking those tops off, and then not worry about those things falling off the shelf and breaking open. I don't want to have to bottle this stuff up anymore. So I'm just wide open now. I'm trying not to have any of those bottles anymore. And one of them really is my red hair and roller derby. So I still have that one bottle there on the shelf. [Laughter] That's one of those challenges for all of us -- try to look at it and try to be as open as you can to help people be more comfortable so they can come out of that closet, they can undo those bottles, they can do whatever they can to start expressing yourselves. Be humans and be proud of that. That's the point. >> Rich Williams: Thanks. >> Joanna Eyles: Well, as Kristin said earlier there are 15,000 estimated service members right now actively serving or in the guard and reserves who are transgendered. They have to be in the closet because people are not allowed to serve openly as a transgender individual. I also know several gay soldiers who are still in the closet because they still feel some fear -- fear of not being discharged, but fear of losing the respect of their units; their comrades; the soldiers serving under them. Most of them are senior NCOs now -- E7 and above -- and they're afraid that if they come out, their soldiers won't respect them. I've tried to share my story with them -- positive story of acceptance and the love I've gotten from service members who know me -- to show that people will accept you. And if they don't, then they're not worth having as a friend, or a colleague, or a brother-in-arms. Thank you. >> Eric Perez: I agree. There's probably a lot of people in the closet, especially transgendered, and as well as like I was saying earlier, depending on the job class that you have in the military. Like I said, infantry, or engineers, or even me as an MP, which is coed, like, I had trouble. And even until this day the rest of my unit, there's people I just -- people that I served with -- that I, you know, went to war with that I don't even talk to anymore. So absolutely I think there's still that fear. There's still certain sections in the military that are kind of behind and, you know, need to catch up. And as a veteran, you said "service members," but as a veteran as well, I have buddies that are in the closet. And then they have the added PTSD, and they had to get medevaced out of Afghanistan, and they're just struggling every night with so many issues because they're still in the closet and they're so scared to come out. And there's definitely a lot of people out there in the closet, I believe. >> Tammy Smith: There was an interesting observation that an Air Force psychologist gave me, and that was that since the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell that he had talked to many people who were now in distress because Don't Ask, Don't Tell gave them cover. It's like, "I would like to be out but, you know, I'm in the military and we can't be out." And so if you think about it, what was different in the military is that the law required that you be fired. It wasn't that you might be fired, but the law actually required. And so that's been taken away now. And so that, in some cases, is a little bit of distress for some members of the population. But I believe that there are still people who are afraid to come out, even though the policy has changed. And there are many reasons for that personally where you are. And with the policy change, it's fantastic. It has certainly improved my life. But a policy change doesn't always translate into a culture change in the types of units that you are in. So I still believe that there is much work that needs to be done on inclusion, and informing people, and that people just must be careful but they choose to be careful when navigating whichever type of unit that they are in. It also pointed out that the nature of the military is that you pick up a new PCS -- permanent change of station -- to a new location somewhere. So you're in a line of work where you have to then go through the coming out process almost over and over just as a part of service, as you move from Fort Sill now to Fort Polk, and then PCS to Germany. So that is a part of it. So I think that there are a lot of people that are still in the closet, but many of those reasons are individual and have to do with who they are and where they just happen to be at that period of service. >> Rich Williams: Thank you. And for a final question: Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel recently stated in relation to transgender service, and I quote, "These issues require medical attention. Austere locations where we put our men and women in many cases don't always provide that kind of opportunity," end quote. Panelists, what logistical and programmatic options could the Department of Defense utilize to successfully integrate transgender service members, specifically with respect to transitioning on active duty? >> Kristin Beck: This is a great question. And I think that it's totally wrong, the medical reasons and in the austere locations reasons. There are civilian contractors right now who are transgender serving in combat right next to our soldiers. They're carrying weapons, they are in austere locations. They are doing it right now. The agency is NSA and all the rest of them accept transgendered people for their service. Now, do you think the military is more austere than Central Intelligence Agency? I mean, give me a break. Now, if they have already taken on these hurdles, and they've gone through these things, and they figured this thing out, how hard is it for us? There are thirteen countries in the world right now who accept transgendered people for service. How hard is this, really? The medical reason just doesn't stand up, either. It's not really that expensive. For me it's about one hundred bucks a month -- that's all. And I haven't done anything else. There is no other cost. It doesn't have to cost a lot of money if that's what everybody's all afraid of. And it's not going to happen all at once also. So if they're afraid suddenly you're going to have this, like, $40 billion bill. Oh, the cost probably for all the transgendered service members in the entire military is going to be way less than one helicopter or one airplane. And then you have all those people. I mean, think about the people. That's what makes the military. It's not the hardware; it's not gun; it's not the helicopter; it's not airplane. We spend so much making sure those helicopters have that one little extra horsepower or we have our weapons be able to shoot that extra couple of feet or be a little bit more accurate. But it's the people that operate it. And if we're not taking care of our people, what in the heck are we doing? There's 15,000 soldiers that can do a better job because you're making them a little more open, you're making them more free. Wouldn't you want to do that? Wouldn't you have a better quality person? Wouldn't you have a better quality military overall if we took care of our people? It's not that big of a deal. So pretty much everything that they could bring up. And that's why they need to set up a commission. And just like you said, we need to take a hard look at this, gather a few of the experts around. And Alison right in the audience here is a prime example of somebody in government services doing a beautiful job. There are so many people out there doing great work and there's so much knowledge that they could take into this commission or little panel or anything. Take advantage of that. Don't just go willy-nilly and get a couple of psychiatrists and a couple of people, some right-wing conservative dude in there throwing around his religion and everything. You're not going to end up with very good data. There's a lot of people out here with a lot of information. And I would look to the British, the Australians, the New Zealanders, the Canadians, the Israelis -- I mean, there's so many other countries we can look at in our allies. You can bring any one of them here, we could have a really cool meeting. We could do it probably amongst this group sitting right here. Gather the data, take a look at it. This is not that hard. Take care of your people and we will take care of you. >> Rich Williams: Thank you. >> Joanna Eyles: Well, I have to say that I agree with pretty much everything Kristin said. But yeah, the austere location quote has become sort of a talking point. I've read it in articles from, you know, said by four or five different DOD spokespeople. It's become their go-to phrase with regard to transgendered service. And I agree with Kristin, it really doesn't hold water. You have service members dealing with depression, post-traumatic stress, you know, all kinds of other medical conditions who are able to deploy. They need constant medical care, they need psychological counseling, they need medications every day -- same as a transgendered person would need. Medication isn't expensive. It doesn't affect your ability to do your job, and it might actually improve it because if a person can be open and serve, they can approach their job as a whole person and not as a part of a person. They don't have to hide who they are; they don't have to concentrate on keeping a secret in order to do their job. >> Eric Perez: I mean, I agree. You guys just wrapped it up for me. [Laughter] I don't know, but -- yeah. When I joined, I remember the first thing they tell you, you know, "You're all green now." There's nothing else; you're just green. That was for the Army. So yeah, it's about the soldier, it's about the soldier. I had the highest PT score in my company and I was gay. And they didn't like that. I was like, "Whatever." I just, you know, worked extra hard. It's all about the soldier, and you have to take care of your soldiers. >> Tammy Smith: And from my perspective -- and I don't know a lot about the topic in terms of what the barriers might be in terms of medical and such -- but I look at it from a talent perspective. We're an all-volunteer force. Our American military is an all-volunteer service, and we are competing for the best talent. We're competing with corporate America, we're competing with government agencies. Everybody is on the look for the very best talent. And so in a sense we are not able to access a current portion of that talent pool. And we also -- as we've seen, too, from just our panel members -- is that we are losing talent, is that that -- it is not a place where they can be, so we lose their talent. And we also lose what we have invested in training and making them the professional technical skilled individuals that they are. So I would look at this also from a talent management, talent retention process is: How do we make sure that we indeed have the best military possible and that we have created access points for the best talent to make their way to the top? >> Rich Williams: Thank you. Okay. At this time we're going to open up questions to you guys, so please do not be shy. When you have a question, let one of the staff members hand you a microphone since we're taping and so that we can be sure that we hear the questions. And I think this lady was first here. Right there. Feel free to stand if you want. Or if you're too shy, stay sitting. >> You mentioned data gathering and then, of course, Tammy Smith mentioned retention and access points. So this being a library, I have to ask you: What can libraries -- all types of libraries -- do to help both with retention, specifically military libraries; public libraries; and of course, I'm including the staff; and medical libraries; in research libraries -- is there anything that these libraries can help with all of that, whether it's data gathering, better services, better materials, retention? >> Rich Williams: In relation to transgendered service or? >> Kristin Beck: LGBT? >> However you choose to address that. >> Rich Williams: Okay. Who would like to take that on -- how can libraries help? >> Tammy Smith: I think that there's -- I'll start. But I just think that there's always a place for independent nonpartisan type of research to inform any of the decisions that our government agencies make. So the same role that you are playing for many other organizations in that I think that there is a place for that, to have that independent look at these topics that can be considered -- and in many circles are considered -- a bit controversial. >> Kristin Bell: I'd say have a section. Because right now, I mean, I can go to the magazine rack and I can see the sport sections, and the boating sections, and all that. But inside the library, wouldn't it be nice if there was a section you could go to and here's a lot of the books, take those books off the book burning list and actually add them to the libraries? There's a wealth of data out there. Let's just start collecting some of those, and especially in the military libraries. I know when you go to the special operations commander -- the SEAL teams -- there's not many books about transgendered in those places. [Laughter] I know, surprise. But the thing is maybe that would be a good thing for the Library of Congress to do, is to put together a reading list or put together the best of the best or some of them. I know when I was growing up there was no access, there was no Internet, and there was hardly any books at all out there. And I was confused. And I think because the access is so difficult, you still have a lot of people that are misinformed because all they're doing is using the stereotypes or using the propaganda from the other side. And it's just too bad that there is an other side. They're fighting all of the Defense on Marriage and everything else. There's so much going on right now for marriage equality, and they're fighting it. So we just need to have maybe a little bit of a list put together here by the Library of Congress would be awesome as a first starting point: "These are the good books, this is the good information." And maybe some of those folks on the other side can start informing themselves. Instead of using opinions based on 2,000-year-old books, maybe use their opinions based on books a little bit more recent. An idea? [Laughter] Thanks. >> Eric Perez: You mentioned gathering data, collaborative efforts, she said independent organizations. Right now me, myself, I'm working with the VA Medical Center. And the social worker there is going to speak with her supervisor to see if I can get a survey out in every section of the medical center in DC. So yeah. I mean, as long as we all collaborate and try to help each other out, that's how we're going to move forward, I believe. >> No comment on this one. >> Joanna Eyles: You know, the surveys were very successful with the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell. There was a lot of data that was gathered prior to that. And opinions had shifted in the United States in the opposition to lifting Don't Ask, Don't Tell -- even in the Republican community. It shifted and has shifting more recent. So I think that's very good advice. And maybe some biographies of LGBT service members, maybe a grant to get some LGBT service members to do a book, you know, about their life and their story. >> Kristin Bell: I like that. >> Rich Williams: Okay? Wait for the microphone. [Laughter] >> I just wanted to piggyback on that -- and I don't wanted to be critical of the Veterans History Project -- but I've been to your office and I've looked online to see what you've collected. And there's a lot of videos of some individuals who've voluntarily gone out and collected information. But I'd like to see some more proactive collecting, going out and seeking. Since this is a history project some of the more prominent people that have been written about in books by Randy Schultz that aren't in your collection, and I'd like to see something more than just video clips. Because a lot of the other exhibits and things in the collection are pictures, and letters, and things from fifty years ago. And I'm sure they exist, too. But you'd have to go out and contact those families and ask them to donate because they probably don't even know that the history collection is being done. >> Rich Williams: I think of the 90,000 individual veterans stories that the library has, they have 100 LGBT. So out of the 90,000, you know, so you guys in this room need to get out there. We've got a question. [ Inaudible ] >> Sure. Go ahead, Bob. >> Bob Patrick: That's part of the reason we're here today, quite frankly. We had tried to go out, and we depend on volunteers and family members to do this. So your point is a very good one that, you know, maybe we haven't been as outward about encouraging people to tell their stories. But this program today was on our website now hopefully will be an impetus for people to do that. >> Yeah, but old people don't look at websites. [Laughter] >> Rich Williams: This old person does. >> Bob Patrick: But young people do. [Laughter] >> Rich Williams: And I think we had a question right here. >> I'm a transgendered veteran, and I've recently received a grant to interview transgendered vets. I'm starting with the oldest because -- >> Rich Williams: You're afraid they're going to die. [Laughter] >> Yeah. I found some World War II vets. But if there were any questions in the spirit of data gathering, and the question that was asked earlier that you would ask the older generations of trans and more specifically trans -- although there are some transgendered, and gay, and lesbian identified individuals; we're not worrying about sexual orientation, just their gender identity -- what questions would you have that would be helpful for the data gathering where you're focusing on sexual assaults; harassments; how we feel it's affected their career; and how a unit's cohesion was affected after they came out; and the response after they came out outside of the military? Do you have any other suggestions? >> So questions that would help with your survey. >> Questions that would help with the survey. And I then intend to actually try and submit it to your project. But yes. >> Oh, great. >> Eric Perez: Is it just sexual assaults? >> No. Those are the ones that we have so far. We have sexual assaults and unit cohesions. So what else? >> Eric Perez: Homelessness. Homelessness, I think, is very important. There's a lot of veterans out there that are in poverty -- in shelters -- especially that generation. They don't have access to technology. So they're out there without the help and they're facing those issues as well as. Homelessness is very important. And by the way, you're doing a great job. >> Kristin Bell: I'm proud of something called the 296 Project, which is a -- it's expressive therapy for PTSD and TBI victims, and concentrated on combat veterans. I would take a look at the PTSD and then take a look at before and after they had some psychological, or any type of therapy, or any counseling. And then try to split apart how much of that really is combat-related, how much of that is related to their staying in the closet, their transgendered, or any other factors. And you might find some pretty interesting data there, that a lot of it, like, long-term, you know, hiding out like that, and long-term being closeted, I think, does have some pretty harsh effects psychologically. And it would just be interesting to see that. And I'd put money on it that you'll see, like, a huge change as soon as they come out to their psychologist, and what they start speaking about, and what they were talking about before, and look at that. That would be a really neat thing to look at. >> Tammy Smith: And another thing, too, just as you think about your World War II veterans who have had a very long life at this point, is I would be interested in knowing: What gave them hope? >> Kristin Bell: Yeah, that's true. >> Rich Williams: Very good point. >> The other thing I think you might want to do is: How much help did they get from the VA once they left? Because I hate to beat up on the VA because they've had a bad week. >> Kristin Bell: But the VA's doing a great job with me. >> Rich Williams: Are they? >> Kristin Bell: I like the VA. >> Rich Williams: But see, that's a good question. To know that would be interesting because I wouldn't have known that. >> Kristin Bell: The VA in Florida's doing a very good job. I think it is split up between which ones you go to, which is too bad. >> Rich Williams: Yeah. Well, that would be important to know, though, you know: Is it geographically important? Okay, we have a question over by the window. >> Kristin Bell: Maureen. >> So in order for this whole project to work, you'd have to get buy-in from the quote "other side," which is the vast majority of the people operating at the higher levels -- at least in the military and certainly at the unit level these younger guys, these 19-year-olds who are just coming in. And they're rough and tough. You know? And I think it's part of the entire process is going to have to be to enlarge the conversation, to include those people, and to get their honest and rational input, you know? And through that kind of conversation, collect your data on how they would feel, on how they can respond, on commanding officers -- all of these people through the ranks -- so that they're integrated in a more productive way. You know, you mentioned something about the jokes, you know, the homophobic jokes or whatever. You hear jokes all the time, you know, Catholic jokes or Jewish jokes or whatever. That doesn't mean they hate Catholics or they hate Jews. They just think it's funny to -- you know, so we have to kind of diffuse the sensitivities in some ways and start having that rational conversation. So I'd like to hear from the panel how you can go about integrating the quote "other side" in a more rational, productive way, instead of having to segregate it our side/their side? >> Tammy Smith: I think that informally, being out is how you start that conversation. Because a lot of times when individuals are making those type of jokes, they're talking about the other. They don't know any gay people. And so they're talking about the other. And I think, you know, as Kristin talks about, we're human -- to humanize. And I think it's to me one of the important reasons of why I'm out and why Tracy and I make sure that we are visible. And so we are able to have some of those conversations. One of the things that I'm going to do this month in Pride that I think is another place where you can help with the conversation is that some of the installations are starting to have pride events. There's a pride event at the Pentagon this week. And later in the month I'm going to Fort Hood, Texas and they're going to have their first pride event on that Army installation. So I think that it adds -- like I say, it's having that face, being out humanizes this. And I think that is one of the places to start the conversation that you are suggesting. >> Kristin Bell: I got, like, a little bit I can add to that. How many here -- how many people here celebrate the Fourth of July? Pretty much everybody. [Laughter] Fireworks and flags, and we're celebrating. We're celebrating something. And then we have LGBT pride. And then we have the flag out and we're celebrating, we're doing that. And right now one of the issues I see amongst everyone else -- and that was part the community that I was kind of hiding out for so long, so I might have been one of the people doing it -- but you'd see these pride celebrations going on and say, "What the heck are they doing that for?" All that. Well, because it still is looked as our own little celebration. And we never invite the rest of the bigger community. It doesn't really expand out past that. And so it's always going to be the guys in the leather and mostly nude people running around and going freaking crazy because they feel like they only have that one day. And so we can make it more. And the pride flag is a diversity flag. And so making it go past that LGBT but making it for diversity. And diversity can be anything. And trying to widen out that thing. So this month right now, June is a LGBT Pride Month. But isn't also like a diversity month? Isn't it celebrating our diversity? Isn't it celebrating us as a greater America? And once we start getting that and we start realizing that's what it is. And then families can start showing up to these things, rather than having it kind of an X-rated event that happens. You know? It's up to our community to start doing that and start moving in that direction. And say, "Hey, just like you guys are celebrating Fourth of July, we're invited to your Fourth of July. Everyone's invited to the Fourth of July. Come on, this is a diversity celebration. This is a celebration of us and our families." And I'd loved how Tammy said that, about just the family. This is my family. Yeah, we're different, but we're still a family. It's the same thing. This is diversity. It's a diversity flag. It's a diversity month. We need to do that as our own little community and start making it more accessible to the rest of the folks. So I think it is a lot of our responsibility to do that in this month right now June at our pride celebrations. That's where we need to start it. >> Eric Perez: I agree. It's very important for us to celebrate pride in, you know, our community. But as well, I also agree with you where we shouldn't be as sensitive. Being an MP there's guys in the barracks just, like, running around like we're smacking each other with the towels, wrestling, and cracking jokes. And you don't take it that seriously. And especially, like, me going in OEF and all that stuff, it's like I come back and people make jokes. Yeah, but it's just a joke. Lighten up; life's not that serious. There's really some worse things out there that, you know, you just relax. That's always what I try to tell people, "Relax." But at the same time, it's very important for us to celebrate our community and integrate it into them. And but, yeah. Like, there's different units, different MOSs that the rough and tough. I was rough and tough. I mean, my ex-boyfriend, he was military intelligence. He was out for his basic training and they would be playing Dance Dance Revolution. And in the unit across from me, like, they would go out every weekend. Well, my drill sergeants were just, like, making me do push-ups. And we we're all just watching them leave on the weekend, just, like, crying. So yeah. I mean, it's different mindsets, different experiences. And you kind of learn just not to be so sensitive. >> Rich Williams: Joanna, did you? >> Joanna Eyles: No. >> Rich Williams: Okay. Any more questions? Good. >> I wanted to applaud you -- all of you guys. But when I was in the service in the Vietnam War, and I was in Vietnam, and I could have sworn our whole troop was gay [laughter] and/or they slept with men. And we had no problems -- I mean, no whatsoever. I mean, we had guys sleeping in. >> Rich Williams: And what unit was that? [Laughter] >> Maybe because I was young then and foolish, coming from a small town. But I was out and the family knew [inaudible]. But we [inaudible] had guys in the same bed, in this little one by four bed, bunk bed. And we thought nothing of it. Went to bed together, woke up together, fought the war. And it was beautiful. And I couldn't understand Don't Tell, Don't Ask, you know, that policy. I just couldn't understand it. Because no one asked, no one told; it was just there. And then when I got shipped to Fort Campbell, Kentucky and it was time for me to re-up, I just couldn't do it. I mean, being black, the prejudice and being gay is like, "Oh, no. I am out of here." So I still couldn't understand it. But when I look back, I wish we had that policy because maybe I would have still been there. So I fully understand this policy now, and it's great having you all [inaudible]. And please -- I apologize -- I never thought of the transgendered. But now you guys have put food for thought in my brain, thank you. >> Rich Williams: And if you haven't done an interview, you need to do one. [Laughter] And maybe I would like to be at that interview. [Laughter] >> Kristin Bell: That's going to be a fun one. I want to be there. [Laughter] >> Rich Williams: Do we have any more questions? Yes, ma'am. Right here. >> Thank you. Thank you very much. It's very informative. I just have very simple question for Kristin: Those medals -- I'm very curious -- could you let us know when you got them? >> Kristin Bell: Yeah. So I was in for twenty years in the SEAL teams. And I was in, like, 13 deployments -- Iraq, Afghanistan, Bosnia, Somalia, a bunch of other places. So one of them is a bronze star with a V for valor, a Purple Heart, and a Joint Accommodation Medal. So there are three of, like, the 27 or 28 that I have. The top gold thing is the SEAL team trident. So that's the symbol for the SEALS. So I wear these to events. And then it kind of lets people know, it's like, right there at face value, "Hey, I'm a veteran. This is what I did. So don't judge me by any of this shell or anything else that you see." So it just quickly just puts them at a different spot. And especially when I'm out in public -- and it's not amongst a lot of people that know that we're a military panel -- but when I start seeing some of the civilians and they just see it as jewelry or see it as something else. But then when they really start questioning it, and then it kind of opens up some really good conversations. And the conversations are, "Thanks for starting a conversation." [Laughter] But it's something that I think that Tammy even brought up and I think everybody here brought up, just the fact that we're out and we're living a life. And I'm not a flamboyant person and this is kind of a nice dress. Usually I'm in Harley shorts, shirts, and jeans. But it's just like everybody else -- we just do our thing and we just live our lives. And it's not a lot of hoopla, it's not a lot of stuff. And I just want people to see, "Hey, we're just regular people." It's not that much of a big deal. It's not that different. The fact that we're out here living our lives, and just being regular folks, and just trying to be good Americans. That's the thing. And that's what I am: I'm just a regular American with some stuff over here. [Laughter] >> Thank you. >> Kristin Bell: Thank you. >> Rich Williams: Do we have any other questions? Right here. >> I just -- I don't really have a question, but I do have a couple comments that I'd like to make -- one on the extension of expanding it to the other side. I see every day LGBT organizations and groups expanding their efforts to allies. LGBT allies -- our families, our friends, our coworkers, all those people -- are powerful. They are so important to everything we do. They're part of the healing process; they're part of the whole team. And as we expand to them --