>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, D.C. >> Good morning. >> Good morning. >> I'm Karen Jaffe. I'm head of the Young Readers Center. And how many here are from JO Wilson Elementary? All right, fifth grade, right? >> Yes. >> Have any of you been to the Library of Congress before? >> No. >> Great! We're very glad to have you today. So you're in for several treats. The first is, you're at the Library of Congress. The second is that you're in the Young Readers Center at the Library of Congress, which is a special library just for kids up to about 16 years old. We were started about seven years ago because it was-- lots of people felt that it wasn't fair that kids under 16 couldn't come and read a book at the library. Because to get a book, you have to have a reader's card, and you have to be 16. So we have three rooms, we have lots of books, we have games, we have special programs like today, we're open Monday through Friday, 9:00 to 4:30 and some special holidays. So we hope you'll come again, maybe with school, maybe with your families, okay? Today is part of a special celebration at the Library of Congress in honor of Alice in Wonderland. Who's heard of Alice in Wonderland? Okay. Alice in Wonderland, the book, is celebrating the 150th anniversary. Now, believe it or not, the Library of Congress is older than that. The institution is 215. So we're a little bit older than Alice. But that's okay. So we've been celebrating Alice in Wonderland the month of April. And with us today is a very special organization called The Lewis Carroll Society. And some of the people are sitting behind you. And two of the people are sitting up here that I'm going to introduce in a minute. And we're going to have a special read from a very popular chapter in the book. But also at the end, if you have some questions, you might ask about, ask our readers, what is The Lewis Carroll Society? I think I'll ask them to do that at the end and not at the beginning. And what is a book collector? Because some of The Lewis Carroll Society members, many of them, I think, collect books and collect things related to Lewis and Carroll. And that's a very interesting either vocation or avocation. It could be a career, it could be a hobby. And one of the things we do with our Everybody Wins D.C. programs, which is our other partner here today, who organized you, is we try to introduce students to different careers, different things they can think about doing when they grow up. So today, we're combining a book and a very special celebration, and we're also talking about the career and the avocation of being bill collectors, okay? So the two readers for you today are Ken and Ellie Salins, and they are members. They're also related. And they're members of The Lewis Carroll Society. And they are going to start the read. And one more important thing. At the end of this program, The Lewis Carroll Society has purchased a copy of the book, a special copy of the book, for each of you. And the reason it's special is because there are many, many versions of Alice in Wonderland, and you've probably seen a movie or television or other kinds of books that some of them look different from others. But the one they're giving you has the original illustrations by John Tenniel. So that's very special, as well. So now I'm going to introduce the Salins. >> Ellie Salins: Thank you. Hi, everybody. Thank you for coming. I wanted to first explain that this is the Maxine Shaffer memorial reading, and The Lewis Carroll Society has this memorial reading every time we have a meeting. So we have meetings twice a year. Usually once a year to New York City, and then the other time it's anywhere else in the country. Or it could be out in the country. We've had readings in Canada before. So this time, it's in Washington, D.C. in Maryland. And this is the Maxine Shaffer memorial reading. And Maxine Shaffer was the secretary of The Lewis Carroll Society from when it started in 1974. Thank you, 1974. Until about 1994 when she decided to retire. And then she died shortly after that in 1996. But she really ran the society. She did a whole lot to get the society started. And we have these readings in her memory. And she was my mother. My father is in the back there. Wave. And so we're here in honor of her, but also in honor of Alice and Lewis Carroll. So what we're going to do-- and this is my husband, Ken, so it's all in the family. We're going to do a reading from the Mad Hatter's tea party chapter. Do you all know that chapter of the book? >> No. >> Ellie Salins: No? You will learn it soon. But we're going to-- there's about a couple different characters, and there's only two of us. So I'm going to be a narrator. And I'm also Alice, and I'm the Dormouse. >> Ken Salins: And I'll be a narrator and the Mad Hatter and the March Hare. It might get a little confusing. We'll try to do maybe a little different voice. >> Ellie Salins: We'll make it work. Okay, and here we go. Thank you for being here. >> Ken Salins: There was a table set out under a tree in front of the house, and the March Hare and the Hatter were having tea at it. A Dormouse was sitting between them, fast asleep, and the other two were using it as a cushion, resting their elbows on it, and talking over its head. >> Ellie Salins: Very uncomfortable for the Dormouse, only, as it's asleep, I suppose it doesn't mind. >> Ken Salins: No room! No room! >> Ellie Salins: They cried out. >> Ken Salins: When they saw Alice coming. >> Ellie Salins: There's plenty of room! >> Ken Salins: Have some wine. >> Ellie Salins: I don't see any wine. >> Ken Salins: There isn't any. >> Ellie Salins: Then it wasn't very civil of you to offer it. >> Ken Salins: It wasn't very civil of you to sit down without being invited. >> Ellie Salins: I didn't know it was your table. It's laid for a great many more than three. >> Ken Salins: Your hair wants cutting. >> Ellie Salins: Said the Hatter. >> Ken Salins: He's been looking at Alice for some time with great curiosity, and this was his first speech. >> Ellie Salins: You should learn not to make personal remarks. It's very rude. >> Ken Salins: Why is a raven like a writing-desk? >> Ellie Salins: Come, we shall have some fun now! I'm glad they've begun asking riddles. I believe I can guess that. >> Ken Salins: Do you mean that you think you can find the answer to it? >> Ellie Salins: Exactly so. >> Ken Salins: Then you should say what you mean. >> Ellie Salins: I do. At least I mean what I say. That's the same thing, you know. >> Ken Salins: Not the same thing a bit. You might just as well say that I see what I eat is the same thing as I eat what I see. You might just as well say that I like what I get is the same thing as I get what I like. >> Ellie Salins: You might as well say-- >> Ken Salins: Added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep. >> Ellie Salins: That I breathe when I sleep is the same thing as I sleep when I breathe. >> Ken Salins: It is the same thing with you. >> Ellie Salins: Here, the conversation dropped, and the party sat silent for a minute, while Alice thought over all she could remember about ravens and writing desks, which wasn't much. >> Ken Salins: What day of the month is it? >> Ellie Salins: The Hatter had done his watch out of his pocket. >> Ken Salins: And was looking at it uneasily, shaking it every now and then, and holding it to his ear. >> Ellie Salins: The fourth. >> Ken Salins: Two days wrong. I told you butter wouldn't suit the works. It was the best butter, yes, but some crumbs must have gotten in as well. You shouldn't have put it in with the bread knife. >> Ellie Salins: The March Hare took the watch and looked at it gloomily. Then he dipped it into his cup of tea and looked at it again. But he could think of nothing better to say than his first remark. >> Ken Salins: It was the best butter, you know? >> Ellie Salins: What a funny watch. It tells the days of the month, and it doesn't tell what o'clock it is. >> Ken Salins: Why should it? Does your watch tell you what year it is? >> Ellie Salins: Of course not. But that's because it stays here for such a long time together. >> Ken Salins: Which is just the case with mine. >> Ellie Salins: I don't quite understand. >> Ken Salins: The Dormouse is sleeping again. >> Ellie Salins: Said the Hatter. >> Ken Salins: And he poured a little hot tea upon its nose. >> Ellie Salins: Of course, of course, just what I was going to remark myself. >> Ken Salins: Have you guessed the riddle yet? >> Ellie Salins: No, I give up. What's the answer? >> Ken Salins: I haven't the slightest idea. Nor I. >> Ellie Salins: I think you might do something better with the time than waste it looking for riddles that have no answer. >> Ken Salins: If you knew time as well as I do, you wouldn't talk about wasting it. It's him. >> Ellie Salins: I don't know what you mean. >> Ken Salins: Of course you don't. I dare say you never even spoke to time. >> Ellie Salins: Perhaps not, but I know I have to beat time when I learn music. >> Ken Salins: Ah, that accounts for it! He won't stand beating. Now, if you only kept on good terms with him, he'd do almost anything you liked with the clock. For instance, suppose it were 9:00 in the morning, just time to begin lessons. You only have to whisper a hint to time, and around goes the clock in a twinkling, half waste one, time for dinner. >> Ellie Salins: That would be grand, certainly. But then I shouldn't be hungry for it, you know? >> Ken Salins: Not at first, perhaps. But you could keep it to half past one, as long as you'd like. >> Ellie Salins: Is that the way you manage? >> Ken Salins: Not I. We quarreled last March just before he went mad, you know? And it was at the great concert given by the Queen of Hearts, and I had to sing twinkle twinkle little bat, how I wonder what you're at. You know the song perhaps. >> Ellie Salins: I've heard something like it. >> Ken Salins: It goes, when you know, in this way, up above the world you fly like a tea tray in the sky. Twinkle twinkle. >> Ellie Salins: Here, the Dormouse shook itself and began singing in its sleep. Twinkle, twinkle, twinkle, twinkle, twinkle. >> Ken Salins: And went on so long. >> Ellie Salins: That they had to pinch it to make it stop. >> Ken Salins: Well, I had hardly finished off the first verse when the queen jumped up and bawled out, "he's murdering the time! Off with his head!" >> Ellie Salins: How dreadfully savage. >> Ken Salins: And ever since that, he won't do a thing I ask. It's always 6:00 there. >> Ellie Salins: Is that the reason that there's so many tea things are put out here? >> Ken Salins: Yes, that's it. It's always tea time, and we have no time to watch things between whiles. >> Ellie Salins: Then you keep moving around, I suppose. >> Ken Salins: Exactly so. As the things used up. >> Ellie Salins: But what happens when you come around to the beginning again? >> Ken Salins: Suppose we change the subject. I'm getting tired of this. I vote the young lady tells us a story. >> Ellie Salins: I'm afraid I don't know one. >> Ken Salins: Then the Dormouse shall. Wake up, Dormouse. >> Ellie Salins: And they pinched it. >> Ken Salins: On both sides at once. >> Ellie Salins: I wasn't asleep. I heard every word, every word you believe, every word you believe, you were saying. >> Ken Salins: You are sleeping. >> Ellie Salins: I am sleeping. >> Ken Salins: Tell us a story. >> Ellie Salins: Yes, please do. >> Ken Salins: And be quick about it, or you'll be asleep again before it's done. >> Ellie Salins: Oh, once upon a time, there were three little sisters, and their names were Elsie, Lacie, and Tillie. And they lived at the bottom of a well. What did they live on? They lived on treacle. They couldn't have lived on that, you know? They'd have been ill. They were very ill. But why did they live at the bottom of a well? >> Ken Salins: Take some more tea. >> Ellie Salins: I've had nothing yet, so I can't have more. >> Ken Salins: Then you can't take less. It's very easy to take more than nothing. >> Ellie Salins: Nobody asked your opinion. >> Ken Salins: Who's making personal remarks now? >> Ellie Salins: Alice did not know quite what to say to this, so she helped herself to some tea and bread and butter. >> Ken Salins: And then turned to the Dormouse and repeated her question. >> Ellie Salins: Why did they live at the bottom of a well? It was a treacle well. There's no such thing. >> Ken Salins: Shh, shh. >> Ellie Salins: If you can't be civil, you better finish the story for yourself. No, no, no, please, go on. I won't interrupt again. I dare say there may be one. One indeed. So these three little sisters, they were learning to draw, you know? Oh, what did they draw? Treacle. >> Ken Salins: I want a clean cut. Let's all move down one place. >> Ellie Salins: He moved as he spoke, and the Dormouse followed him. The March Hare moved into the Dormouse's place, and Alice, rather unwillingly, moved to the place of the March Hare. >> Ken Salins: The Hatter is the only one who got any advantage from the change, and Alice was a good deal worse off than before, as the March Hare had just unset the milk jug onto his plate. >> Ellie Salins: But I don't understand. Where did they draw the treacle from? >> Ken Salins: You can draw water out of a water well, so I think you could draw a treacle out of a treacle well. Eh, stupid? >> Ellie Salins: But they were in the well. Of course they were. Well in. >> Ken Salins: The answer so confused poor Alice that she let the Dormouse go on for some time without interrupting it. >> Ellie Salins: They were learning to draw, and they draw all manners of things, everything that begins with an M. Why an M? >> Ken Salins: Why not? >> Ellie Salins: Hmm. >> Ken Salins: The Dormouse had closed its eyes by this time and was going off into a doze. But on being pinched by the Hatter, it woke up again with a little shriek and went on. >> Ellie Salins: What begins with an M, such as mousetraps and the Moon and memory and muchness. You know a few things are much of a muchless? And ever so much a thing as drawing a muchness? Really now you ask me, I don't think. >> Ken Salins: Then you shouldn't talk. >> Ellie Salins: This piece of rudeness was more than Alice could bear. She got up in great disgust and walked out. >> Ken Salins: The Dormouse fell asleep instantly, and neither of the others took the least notice of her going. Though she looked back once or twice, half hoping that they would call after her, the last time she saw them, they were trying to put the Dormouse into the teapot. >> Ellie Salins: Well, at any rate, I'll never go there again. It's the stupidest tea party I was ever at in all my life. [ Applause ] >> Would you like to tell them what a treacle is? >> Ellie Salins: I was going to see if they knew what a treacle is. Does anybody know what treacle is? >> No. >> Ellie Salins: No? Does anybody know what molasses is? What's molasses? >> Me? >> Ellie Salins: Yeah. >> It's this kind of, it's like a syrup. [ Inaudible ] >> Ellie Salins: Right. >> Ken Salins: Did you all hear her? Yeah. >> Ellie Salins: She said it's like a syrup. It's sort of like a thicker syrup. And treacle is sort of the same thing. In England, it's sort of a thick syrupy thing. So these three sisters were in a well with syrup, treacle sticky stuff. That's what the story was about. >> Ken Salins: Kind of silly. >> Ellie Salins: Yeah, very silly. Lots of silly things in the book. Anybody know what a muchness is? Much of a muchness? I don't know what a muchness is either. Or why is a raven like a writing desk? Does anybody know? A raven, what's a raven? >> A bird. >> Ellie Salins: A bird. What color is it? >> Black. >> Ellie Salins: And what football team has ravens as a mascot? >> Baltimore. >> Ellie Salins: Baltimore. You guys got it. Okay, so they're asking, why is a raven like a writing desk? So a writing desk is a desk that Lewis Carroll would write things on. So why could a raven be like a writing desk? So in the back, we have lots of people from Lewis Carroll. Does anybody have an answer to that one? There never was an answer in the book. But there's been some studies about it. So they wonder if it has to do with the black ink on the writing desk and the black raven. [ Inaudible ] >> Ellie Salins: Were there any questions about the chapter, about Alice, about Lewis Carroll? Does everybody know that Alice was a real girl? Do you all know that? Yes? No? Alice was a real girl. And she knew Lewis Carroll. So Alice was-- Lewis Carroll, let me back up, Lewis Carroll was a math professor at a university called Oxford University in England, and the college of the university was called Christ Church, which is a college, not a church. And Lewis Carroll was a math professor there. And his boss, the dean of the college, had a daughter named Alice. >> Ken Salins: Dean is kind of like a principal. >> Ellie Salins: Yeah, the dean of a college is like a principal. So his boss's daughter was Alice. And her name was Alice Little. And he took Alice and two of her sisters on a boat ride and made up the story on the boat ride that was in 1862. And then in 1865-- well, Alice really liked the story on the boat ride, and she asked him to write the story down. So in 1865, he wrote it down, and he handed it to her, and it became published, and it became Alice in Wonderland. >> Ken Salins: She was very close to your age. How old are you all? >> 11. >> Ken Salins: 11. She was 10. >> Ellie Salins: She was 10 in 1862. >> Ken Salins: Pretty close. >> Ellie Salins: Was she 10 in 1862? >> Ken Salins: Can you imagine going on her adventure just a year ago? Meeting all these strange people [inaudible]. >> Ellie Salins: And the book was first written, it was called Alice's Adventures Underground. And then when they went to publish it and make it a much, you know, larger publication that all sorts of people would read, they changed the title to Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. So the real title is Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. And it was published in 1865. So that's 151 years ago, or 150 years ago. Yep, 1865. Do you guys have any questions? >> Ken Salins: Has anybody read it? Teachers? One? >> Ellie Salins: Does anybody have a favorite character from the book? Who's your favorite character? >> Mad Hatter. >> Ellie Salins: Mad Hatter? Who else? You have a favorite character? [ Inaudible ] The Cheshire Cat? The Cheshire Cat. Yeah. Yep. Say it a little louder? [ Inaudible ] The guy with the hat? The Mad Hatter? Okay, yep? >> The bunnies. >> Ellie Salins: The bunny? The white rabbit or the March Hare? >> The rabbit. >> Ellie Salins: The rabbit, okay. >> The March Hare. >> Ellie Salins: The March Hare? >> The Queen of Hearts. >> Ellie Salins: The Queen of Hearts. The Queen of Hearts yells at everybody. That's a good one. Anybody else? Yeah? The Mad Hatter? Okay. >> Ken Salins: So for not having read the book, you all know a lot of characters from this book, which is really interesting. It's one of the reasons why there are people who are interested in this group 150 years later. It's because it has interesting characters in it. So it's kept it alive for a long time. >> Ellie Salins: How many people here have read Harry Potter? Okay, you know that Harry Potter and Lewis Carroll have a connection? >> No. >> Ellie Salins: No? All right. Would you like to know how? >> Yes. >> Ellie Salins: So this college I talked about, Oxford University, and then Christ Church is a college, there's a big dining hall called The Great Hall there. How many people have seen the Harry Potter, the first or second Harry Potter movie? And you saw The Hogsworth Dining Hall? They used the dining hall from Christ Church for that movie. So the Hogsworth Dining Hall that you saw in the movie was the same place that Lewis Carroll ate his breakfast, lunch and dinner every day when he worked for the college. Isn't that cool? Yes. >> Ellie Salins: That's pretty cool, huh? >> Ken Salins: Only the food didn't float above his head. >> Ellie Salins: The food didn't float above his head, no. But that's the connection. When we went to see the movie, we've been to this dining hall, and I'm like, whoa, that looks familiar. Wait, I think they're using the great hall. It made it work. It was really cool. Any other questions? Do the teachers have questions? [ Inaudible ] What the society does. So we're the Lewis Carroll Society in North America. There's lots of Lewis Carroll Societies. There's one here. There's one in England. There's one in Japan. We have a member of the Japanese society here, Kimye [phonetic]. She came all the way from Japan to be with you all. There's Lewis Carroll Society of Australia. So there's lots of Lewis Carroll Societies. So we like to find out things about Lewis Carroll or about Alice or about their families. We collect things. So my father has a collection that started in the 1890s by my grandfather. She started collecting Alice in Wonderland books before Lewis Carroll died. He died in 1898. So the collection was first started by my grandfather, and then my father and mother took it over. And so you have a very large book collection that has how many different languages now of Alice in Wonderland? >> Probably 70. >> Ellie Salins: About 70 different languages. And he has a lot of books that are signed by Lewis Carroll. [ Inaudible ] And yes, so he is the large motion picture Alice in Wonderland movie collection. And then we have other people. Right now there's an exhibit at University of Maryland about the [inaudible] Alice in Wonderland collection. They're over here. And so they have a very, very large wonderful book collection too. And a lot of people in this room also have large book collections. I have the largest Alice in Wonderland teapot collection in the world. >> Ken Salins: The question was, what the Lewis Carroll Society? What do we do? Why do we have this? There's a lot of people here that are inspired by this book to do different things. Some of them collect books, as she said. But there are artists around the world that are always interested in redoing some of the art. The book you're going to have has some of the original art in it. But continuously, artists are making new drawings as they have been inspired by it. There are people who are interested in his life and his other hobbies. He was a photographer. >> Ellie Salins: And a mathematician. >> Ken Salins: So the people get together and share stories about what they learned or how they've been inspired by Lewis Carroll. And so it's kind of a fun thing to do, to get together with other people who have a hobby, the same hobby you have. It's pretty much that, right? >> Ellie Salins: Right. But we all have a little bit different spin on our hobbies, like different interested. Some people like Lewis Carroll because he was a mathematician. He wasn't an English teacher. He was a math professor. So some people like him for that. Some people like him for his writing. Some people like him for all different things. He was a very interesting, very intelligent man. And there's a lot of interesting stuff he did. He was one of the first photographers. And he photographed a lot of famous people back in the 1800s. And so there's a lot of interest in all different pieces that he's done. >> Is there anyone in the room who can tell them a little bit about Jabberwocky? >> Ellie Salins: About Jabberwocky? What would you like to know? >> Ken Salins: So he wrote more than just Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Jabberwocky was a poem that he wrote. You could probably do it. >> Ellie Salins: I can do it. Do you guys know the poem Jabberwocky? >> No. >> Ellie Salins: Do you want to hear it? >> Sure. >> Ellie Salins: Oh, man. Are you guys going to help me in the back there? No? Oh, come on. Okay, so Jabberwocky is from Through the Looking Glass. There were two books that had to do with Alice. One was Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, and one was Alice through the Looking Glass. So all right, let's see if I can do it. 'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe. All mimsy were the borogoves, and the mome raths outgrabe. Beware the Jabberwock, my son! The claws that bite, the jaws that catch! Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun The frumious Bandersnatch! He took his vorpal sword in hand; Long time the manxome he fought. And rested he by the Tumtum tree and stood awhile in thought. Oh, no, I missed a part. You guys aren't helping me. >> Ken Salins: So now you've got to go to the library and read it. >> Ellie Salins: So yeah, you'll have to read it. It's hard in front of an audience. But that's the Jabberwocky. And it's a very, very famous poem. And a lot of people do it. A lot of actors you can find on YouTube and stuff, a lot of actors are doing it much better than I just did it. Actors from England like to do that poem there in England. >> Ken Salins: It has a lot of made-up words in it that he just thought, that sounds like it should be a word and he put it in there. And now some of the words that he used just for playfulness are part of everyday language, which is really kind of a-- >> Ellie Salins: 'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe, are any of those English? >> No. >> Ellie Salins: But some of those words have become words. You hear people talk about-- >> Galumphing is a word. >> Ellie Salins: And he came galumphing back, yes. >> And he chortled. >> Ellie Salins: And he chortled. He chortled as he came, yep. I didn't say all those words. So you had a question back there. >> I was just wondering if [inaudible] had any descendants that are a part of The Lewis Carroll Society. >> Ellie Salins: So Lewis Carroll never married and had his own children, but there are members of The Lewis Carroll Society of England that are nieces and nephews. So a lot of his nieces and nephews, yes, are part of the society. >> Ken Salins: As a member of Christ Church, he had to take his vows of celibacy because he was part of the church. So he didn't have that. >> Ellie Salins: When you were a professor back then, you weren't supposed to marry. But I think when he was about age 50, the rules changed. But he was about 50, and never married. But yes, there are nieces and nephews around, and they still have, own some of his things, and it's very interesting. When you meet them, it's kind of like meeting royalty. So other questions? >> Can you talk a little bit about his childhood, Lewis Carroll's childhood, and how that seems to be the background of what he was able to create? >> Ellie Salins: Well, Lewis Carroll was one of how many children? >> 11. >> Ellie Salins: 11 children. And he was the oldest boy. And so in order to keep 11 children busy back in the early 1800s, this is before any electronics. There was nothing electronic. There were no, you know, cell phones, iPhones, none of that back then. So he did a lot of games. He invented a lot of games that he did with his brothers and sisters, a lot of word games, a lot of number games, a lot of, you know, he would write plays, he would draw pictures, and did a lot to keep his brothers and sisters busy. >> Ken Salins: And he made a little newsletter. He started writing at a very young age. He made a little like newsletter thing that he would publish. And then they would have something to read and they would sing games and that would be the entertainment. >> Ellie Salins: You had a question back there. [ Inaudible ] >> Lewis Carroll, in the original manuscript that he gave to Alice Little in November of 1854, and actually illustrated the book himself, but he was concerned that his drawings weren't good enough for a published book. So on the advice of friends, he approached the punch cartoonist John Tenniel. [ Inaudible ] He didn't become Sir John Tenniel until much later in his life. And Tenniel was a very famous man. Lewis Carroll [inaudible] was an unknown man teacher. And Tenniel cooperated with him and followed, to a great degree, the original drawings that Lewis Carroll had done, and those chapters that are repeated from the original manuscript in the published book. And you can look at them and see differences and a great deal of similarities. But Carroll was a little too modest. Because some of his illustrations are really brilliant, especially the one when Alice shrinks down so far that her chin touches her shoes. [ Inaudible ] >> Ellie Salins: Did you all hear? So Tenniel, the illustrations that you're going to see in the book we're going to give you, was the original published illustrations, okay? But Lewis Carroll drew his own. And they were beautiful. They're really nice illustrations. But then after Tenniel, lots of different people have now illustrated it. But the other thing that [inaudible] said was that Lewis Carroll was not his real name. Lewis Carroll is a pen name. Do you all know what a pen name is? No? So some authors don't-- do you want to explain what pen name is? No? Okay, because you can probably explain it better than me. Some authors don't want people to know they're the ones that wrote it. So they could have one name. So his real name, Lewis Carroll's real name was Charles Lutwidge Dodgson, okay? Charles Dodgson. And he was this famous math professor. And he's writing these children's books, and he's like, I don't want people to know I'm writing these children's books. So he came up with the name Lewis Carroll as his pen name. So that's the name he used for children's books. But sometimes when he published other books, because he published math books, he would use the name Charles Dodgson. But then he did other books about symbolic logic and all sorts of things. And he sometimes used Lewis Carroll for those. But that was his pen name. So his real name is Charles Dodgson. So the person that had-- was one of 11 kids was Charles Dodgson. Then the writer of Alice in Wonderland, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, is Lewis Carroll. >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.