>> From the Library of
Congress in Washington D.C.
>> Anne McLean: We
are very, very pleased
to be tonight graced with
having Jorg Widmann, composer
and clarinetist in
the Pacifica Quartet.
We'll be talking with Sibbi
Bernhardsson and it's exciting
to have people here
who are going
to be both performing
and composing.
This afternoon I understand
you had the pleasure of looking
at the Von Weber clarinet
quintet some copious manuscripts
and we'll talk about
that as well.
So, we'll just jump
right in and say both you
and the Pacifica are rapidly
expanding an impressive roster
of new music.
It's really exciting.
Whenever I read about you,
I'm so intrigued and impressed
by the scope of your activities,
including just 10 days
ago the world premiere
of your new oratorio, which
we'll talk about, Arche,
and also just-- in fact,
you have another piece
being done the same--
in the same venue,
the Elbphilharmonie.
I'd love to talk a
little bit about that,
which is such a spectacular
new venue in Hamburg.
And I saw a reference to
you and to the Pacifica
as a repeat collaborator--
that sounds a little criminal,
but how long have you
been working together?
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson: Yeah,
well we were actually
just talking about it.
We met by in Badenweiler,
Germany and there used
to be this wonderful new music
festival in a hotel and the guy
who ran the hotel was also this
incredibly knowledgeable person
about music and was
close friends with many
of the leading composers
and he hired the--
got the quartet to play all five
of the Elliott Carter
string quartets
and then he also brought it
together with Jorg Widmann
to play the clarinet
quintet and--
I think this was like 10 years
ago-- and we would be rehearsing
and we had never met Jorg
Widmann and then it was
like after the first [inaudible]
Brahms we're all like, wow,
this is going to be the
greatest Brahms we've ever done
because he's amazing.
And then during rehearsal
breaks,
Jorg Widmann was
running upstairs
and finishing Vienna
Philharmonic
and that was our
introduction to Jorg Widmann.
>> Anne McLean: And
so, we know--
well, of course we've
had you a few times
and then I was looking
the other day at the video
of when you were here in
2000-- was it 2010, I think,
with Chamber Music
Society of Lincoln Center--
and it's nice to be able to
welcome back people that feel
like true friends, you know.
We have quite a few of them here
in the audience and
on stage as well.
But I wanted to ask you,
Sibbi, a little bit about some
of the new music that
you're doing and starting
with a piece that's not so
new, but is new to many people,
and that is the Ornstein
piano quintet.
That's an amazing piece,
when did you pick this up
and how did you come by it?
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
Yeah, well that was--
we were lucky enough that we
were once playing a concert
in Boston and then Marc-Andre
Hamelin, the pianist,
he came backstage and the
concert was George Crumb Black
Angels and Carter 3 and he
came backstage and he was like,
you know, there's this great
composer that no one knows
and his name is Leo Ornstein
and I really want to, like,
actually record this piece
and tour it and I feel
like we would be a good fit.
And, you know, we like
right away were intrigued
and it is actually
quite a piece.
And Ornstein, I don't know
if any of you knew him,
because I certainly
didn't, but he is actually--
he was apparently this
amazingly popular famous pianist
and in the-- and when he was
in his 20's he apparently
sold the halls
out faster than Heifetz did.
And-- but he only performed
for about three years
and then he just
like gave it up.
He-- something-- he just
didn't have the nerves
and he also just
wanted to compose.
And he started a children's
music school in Philadelphia
and then he moved
around for a while.
He lived in a trailer in-- on
the border of Texas and Mexico
and was composing and
he died in Green Bay.
And he is the-- after
Elliott Carter,
he is the second oldest
published composer
and he did incredible music
and Marc-Andre Hamelin
has really championed him.
And these have really
kind of haunting titles,
like some of his piano
pieces they're called, like,
suicide on an airplane
and things like that.
But it's spectacular music
and Marc-Andre Hamelin
has been playing it a lot
and we love that quintet.
Do you know the composer?
Yeah.
>> Anne McLean: Yeah, so
I think it was Andre--
Marc-Andre who was
saying he's a mixed--
no, it was in the notes to that
recording, a mix of [inaudible]
and [inaudible] piano slayer.
Strange combination of a
description for somebody.
I just was interested
because I had not heard of him
and I know he's a very
extraordinary person,
arresting music, very
little counterpoint,
somewhat extended noise
techniques, maybe,
or verging on the edge of that.
So, that's one thing
you're doing
and then mention a little bit
about your new quintet,
the cello quintet.
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
Yeah, so we are-- we--
with Johannes Moser,
we commissioned Julie
Wolfe to write a quintet.
It's a basically a reaction
of the super cello quintet,
so the projects is that
we pair those two together
and that has been a
very-- it's a great piece.
We just premiered
it last November.
>> Anne McLean: And
you have a new--
had also a reduction of a
piece by Jennifer Higdon,
a new reduction of her Dooryard
Bloom-- is that the name?
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson: Yes.
Wow, you like really did your--
>> Anne McLean: I'm
very interested
because I'm not kidding about
your being a force for new music
and that's what we're
going to really be focusing
on while we're talking, but--
so was that an orchestra piece
and now you're doing it
as an ensemble piece?
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
Yeah, for--
it's for piano, voice,
and string quartet.
Yeah. And then we also a piece
that we really love playing
and is commissioned
by Shulamit Ran.
She wrote a very powerful
quartet called Glitter, Shards,
Memory, and Doom and
it's a very, very--
>> Anne McLean: That's an
interesting title, yeah.
Well, this is great and
now we'll talk further
about this new work, the
oratorio, and I caught a bit
of this on the internet
and it was just stunning.
And this is-- I'd like you
to tell the audience
a little bit about it.
The name, how you
came up with the name,
and it's really a metaphor,
and talk about the concert hall
and so on a little bit.
>> Jorg Widmann: Well, first
of all, also for me it feels
like coming home,
back to this place
into this wonderful acoustic
of this hall and it feels
like coming home for me.
You know, after years-- too many
years-- that we didn't meet--
and we just said
in the rehearsal today
it feels like yesterday.
You know? We-- you just
continue-- maybe we were--
we are somewhere else now,
so we have new experience,
but it feels really like
musically coming home.
This piece, yeah, I
wrote this piece for--
I was writing on it for
more than half a year.
It almost tore me apart because
there are 300 people involved.
Three choruses, one
children chorus,
one youth chorus,
one opera chorus.
Kent Nagano was conducting
it a fantastic way.
I mean he's one of
the few people I think
who can hold something
like this together.
It's two hours long
almost and huge orchestra,
so 300 people involved.
And I wrote every note of it--
still I don't believe when I did
it, but I heard most of them--
all of them-- so, the title
comes really from this building.
So, maybe you have
seen images of this.
It looks like a ship from
outside, but when you're inside
of it it's really an amazing
modern hall because even
at the seat, which is farthest
away from the center stage
or from the conductor,
you feel still
like a part of the whole thing.
In some halls, also, some
modern halls, you think is--
did the orchestra
start playing already,
you feel like in
a different room.
And that's really like you feel
like in the middle
of a ship or an ark.
So, it has this also
religious connotation,
but I think if you decide to
write an oratorio, in our time,
I mean this really turmoil
of politically everywhere
in Europe-- everywhere--
it's one of my pieces which
really has a message and ends
at the end with "dona
nobis pacem"
and I think that's what we need
in our world more than ever.
>> Anne McLean: I was going
to ask you about the text.
I know there are many, many
texts from Heine, Nietzsche,
to the Bible, Schiller,
Matthias Claudius, and so on.
Did you choose the texts or
did they guide you on this?
>> Jorg Widmann: So, when Kent
Nagano asked me, he just--
so, we know each other for a
long time, so he trusted me.
So, I-- the only wish was that
there's a chorus involved,
so not a purely symphonic work.
So, this time it was the first
time I chose all these poems
and poets.
So, it was a composition
in itself
and it took me much
longer than I ever thought.
So, this was already
compositioned [phonetic]
as one line from
Michelangelo which I combined
with six lines of Schiller.
So, that was already
a kind of composition.
Normally, I prefer if I
have somebody, you know,
I can work with and
also disagree with--
that's very important for our
work, sometimes, you know?
You have the librettists
for my operas.
Here it's half opera,
half oratorio,
but this time I chose
these texts.
And, by the way, the Schiller
text, it was really amazing
to me because in the
moment of the dies irae,
the fourth part is dies irae,
and I strongly disagreed
with the fifth, you know, pair
of lines, which is about guilt,
our guilt as human beings
and that there is one day--
so it will be-- there's
a book written
and all my sins will be read--
so, I strongly disagreed with
that because that can only mean
that in life we are
already full of guilt.
You know?
And I-- it was a real crisis.
I could not continue writing
because I could not
simply set this to music.
And in these days I
found the Schiller lines
from an early version
of the [inaudible],
so this joy which Beethoven
used in his ninth symphony,
but he did not use these lines.
So, if he would have, I
would have never dared
to even touch them,
but since he did not
and it was exactly contradicting
these lines and it says, like,
that our book of guilt should be
torn apart and let's have joy--
and I mean that's
the simple version,
it's incredible Schiller
words, but these things happen
so already the choosing
the literature was a part
of the composition.
>> Anne McLean: And the form
of the piece, how did you--
did this sort of
evolve over time?
What kind of structure
did you give it?
>> Jorg Widmann: To me, it
was very clear from beginning
on that since it was one
of the opening nights
of this new hall-- so, it's
a new hall and I did not want
to pretend I go there and I
start, you know, with, you know,
with a D major chord or
with a dissonant chord
or with any statement.
To me, it became very
clear it has to evolve
from nothing, actually.
So, there is nothing there,
like chaos, like it's described
in the Genesis, you know?
So, I choose this light, you
know, there are these concepts--
two concepts, of course, of
the beginning of the world.
In the Bible, one is the light,
the other one is the word
in the Johannes [inaudible].
So, these two different concepts
of the world, they're both in--
represented in this piece.
So, it starts really with
the creation of the word--
sounds funny when I say
it, I'm happy I could do it
in the music, but it
really comes from nothing.
So, it means that there
are only air noises.
It starts only with strange
noises and it takes six, seven,
eight, nine minutes until
the first pitch tone comes
and then the word light,
of course, since Haydn.
We have a responsibility to
set this word into music.
I did it completely different.
Not like-- in Haydn it's this
es werde licht, you know,
the light, [inaudible].
I was more interested in
a transition, you know,
from piano to a fortissimo
chord.
So, that's the first part.
The second is the flood, which
many religions believe in.
The Jews believe in it, the
Christians believe in it,
the Babylonians believed
in it, in the flood.
So, I did not want-- only
want to write a festive piece
for a festive night, so we have
to know about the dark sides
and also the number four, dies
irae, of course is a dark one.
The third one, the center
of the piece, is about love.
So, it's-- doesn't
have to do so much
with the traditional
oratorio form.
And the last one, to
me most important,
when the children
come on stage--
they only come on
stage for this piece.
This message.
Sounds very much like cliche
when I say it now, but,
you know, in two hours
and after you went
through all these dark
things, when the children,
they come on stage and
they just say come on,
don't deliver everything
to gods about peace.
We have to start
as human beings.
So, that's their message.
So, no matter what you believe
or you believe, we
have to start it.
Right now.
So, that's-- so, in
the end, the adults,
they understand this message
and it gave me the possibility
that in the very end it
really ends in a positive way
and it was so-- I was very
touched how it was received
because the people I
think understood this very
heartfelt message.
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
Can't wait to hear it.
No, I said I can't
wait to hear it.
>> Jorg Widmann: Yeah, Kent
Nagano, we talked for an hour
on the days afterwards
because he was still staying
in our place and he said
he also wants to bring it
to the United States for sure,
but it's difficult,
you know, 300 people.
The stage-- you have to
find a stage for everybody.
Maybe I do a somewhat
smaller version.
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
For clarinet quintet?
>> Jorg Widmann: Yes, exactly.
Exactly. So, I am the child
who joins you in the end.
>> Anne McLean: I was
reading this comment from one
of the singers that was
involved saying it was a cosmic
experience and Nagano was saying
that this was the best room
in the world to have
this experience for him,
that the room itself helped to
contribute to the experience,
and I was thinking about concert
halls as spiritual spaces.
And now the growth and birth
of these phenomenal halls,
like this new one, which
is so extraordinary
and also the Paris Philharmonie,
which I have heard a concert in
and it really-- it's like
a cathedral for music.
And then you think about,
you know, people will talk
about the decline of classical
music and so on and so on,
but it's-- to me, it's
very moving to know
that these places are
being built and not only
that people are coming
to them in droves.
I know the Paris one, they're
saying they've far exceeded the
number of people they expected
to have in the first year.
And I was curious
about this one.
Is it-- as I understand
it, it's a concert hall
that presents many
kinds of music, right?
Yeah.
>> Jorg Widmann: So,
the spiritual dimension
is the first thing.
When you enter this hall,
that's one of the first things--
and I agree, in Paris
it's similar.
They are not that far away from
each other in aesthetic and--
>> Anne McLean: Yeah, the
pictures I saw, yeah--
>> Jorg Widmann: And the
futuristic approach and--
but futuristic approach
sometimes means a little bit
cold, sometimes, but here there
is a certain warmth about it
as well and it's great
acoustics-- still, of course,
I mean we could research
a lot now,
so I think it will
take some time
to really fix some
problems is too much,
it's fantastic acoustics but
with these forces involved,
you know, chorus and orchestra,
you can really know
afterwards, you know.
And I will be-- the
day after tomorrow,
I will be in Paris
to-- in this hall to--
>> Anne McLean: You'll love it.
>> Jorg Widmann: Yeah,
I know, it's fantastic.
>> Anne McLean: Well, it's
wonderful to just chat
in general, but I wanted to get
you guys to talk a little bit
about your quartet that
you'll be performing tonight
and is this one of the
more dramatic quartets
in your repertoire?
I would think so.
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
The-- his--
yeah, dramatic is
exactly the right word
because actually he
asked us to do all sorts
of extramusical things,
like, you know, we get to--
we do a fair amount of shouting,
we get to whip our bows,
we get to slay our cellist and
so I think it's exactly right.
This is probably the
most dramatic piece,
but it's a really,
really exciting piece.
It's really hard.
We're going like
160 miles an hour.
And then-- but it's
so effective.
And actually-- I've actually
often used Jorg as an example
when I'm talking to
aspiring composers is one
of the reasons why I think--
one of the many reasons besides
him just being so talented
and creative-- why he's
such a great composer--
and we've had this
conversation--
is just like he knows
the literature so well.
He just knows music, like,
from the beginning to now.
So, he just-- he has
such a strong foundation
and he knows how to write,
he knows the counterpoint,
he knows all of this, so when
he is doing these extramusical
things or when he's having
us do unusual things,
it's so convincing
because it's based
on such a strong foundation.
You know? And so this piece--
which when you will hear it,
I mean, you-- it's doing--
and even the notation.
I mean there's not even western
notation to some of the things
that he's asking us, so he
has to actually write little
like asterisks and say, well,
actually you're supposed
to do this with a bow
and this and that.
And-- because with his
creative mind he's like looking
for the sounds and
whatever it takes in a way
like George Crumb does.
I mean he's just like
looking for the sound
until he just gets it.
So, it's incredibly dramatic
and it's incredibly--
and, well, you should talk
about it more, but, you know,
when you were explaining
it to us about hey,
it sort of is how
the scherzo evolves
and from a minuet to a hull.
I remember you described it
so well, like how, you know,
Haydn turned the minuet
into a scherzo as a joke
and then Beethoven turned the
scherzo into something dramatic
and then Mahler into
something tragic.
So, I think when you're
playing this piece--
I was just thinking the other
day, well, it's sort of up
to the listener if
the piece is a joke
or if it's sarcastic
or deadly serious.
So, that will be for, you
know, for you guys to decide.
>> Anne McLean: And maybe
would you give us a little
background-- I know you've
written these as a series
of five quartets and this is
the centerpiece, but tell us how
that relates to the
forms and so on.
>> Jorg Widmann: So, every
movement I would even call it
of this quartet cycle, so it
can be performed as a cycle,
so then it's really movements,
but they can be performed
individually.
So, each of these quartets
represents a traditional form
of-- traditional
form of movement.
So, the first one would
be an introduction,
the second a very slow movement.
This one is the scherzo
with all its implications.
The fourth one is an andante
and the fifth one
comes in a soprano.
Joins the quartet
and that's a fugue
or the attempt of the fugue.
So, this is really-- I think
you described it so well,
I should not add too
much to it, but this--
talking about tradition,
maybe just taking this
first thing you mentioned,
that's right.
I am grateful that on a daily
basis I am allowed to be
in touch with these great
masterworks of the past,
which we played tonight, like
the Weber, which I was so moved
that this is here at the
Library of Congress--
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
The manuscript?
>> Jorg Widmann: The
manuscript-- incredible.
We will talk about
this in a minute.
It was a very, very special
moment for me because,
as a clarinetist, we adore
Weber, but as a composer also,
I'm one of the very few people
who really admire
Weber so, so much.
You know, there are so
many prejudices about him.
Let's talk about Weber
rather than about my quartet.
>> Anne McLean: Well, there's
a lot to be said about Weber,
I mean he was-- my
colleague talked about him
in his program saying he was--
could be called a
musical impresario
because he was a
conductor, he was a pianist--
I believe you're
also a pianist--
but he was a performer.
He did all these many things
and certainly was influential
in opera of the time and so on.
You mentioned that when you
were a child you found the
[inaudible] music very scary.
And so why was that?
Talk about that.
>> Jorg Widmann: I was so
scared, but really scared.
You know? It was not a being
scared you see a theater
and you understand that they
want to make you being scared.
I was really shaking and this
[inaudible] scenery, you know,
the dark scenery of [inaudible]
and I was scared by the sounds.
I remember these low clarinets--
even as a clarinetist I would
never imagine two low clarinets
in this registers, then
celli playing far above.
Or the piccolos-- I
still hear today--
with the women's
chorus, this [inaudible].
I can still hear it.
I was shaking.
And, of course, the
great clarinet works,
he really maybe only
as Mozart and Brahms,
he understood our instrument.
He understood the
essence of our instrument.
You know, writing a
piece like the Fantasia
in the Weber Clarinet Quintet,
this incredible imagination--
and you know in clarinet
quintet he cannot even do much
about instrumentation because
it's, you know, it's this set
of instruments, but
his orchestration--
and that's what Berlioz praises
in his instrumentation most.
That's unique and so new.
And Wagner, by the way, he-- I
mean I don't want to talk badly
about him, but he really--
it's on the edge of being--
we are being able to say
he stole some of things
and some of the effects.
>> Anne McLean: Yeah,
one movement.
Did he really?
I mean did he publish
it as well?
I know he took it and copied it?
>> Jorg Widmann: Oh, you
mean this one, the quintet--
for a long time,
people thought it was
by Wagner, but it was by Berman.
So, I think because they wanted
to sell more copies they
said it's by Wagner.
And in the 19th century people
thought it's a clarinet quintet
movement, an adagio, very
beautiful piece in D-flat major,
very strange key, but it was
written, now they found out,
by the clarinetists of Weber.
But what I mean is
the harmonies.
You know? If we listen to
[inaudible], we think ah,
that's Wagner harmony.
Well, Weber was so many decades
before that and Wagner was aware
of it because at the day of
the funeral when Weber died
in London and they
brought his corpse to the--
to Dresden, Wagner
organized a whole day of music
and he wrote music for Weber.
So, he knew what-- where
he was getting it from--
you know, I'm too
sarcastic about it,
but a lot of the best
Wagner I think is Weber.
[ Laughter ]
>> Anne McLean: That's
quite a statement, yeah.
Well, let's talk a little
bit about the impresario--
I mean the virtuoso, you
mentioned Berman, he really,
like as in the case of so
many people who were virtuosi
who advanced technique and
advanced a whole school
of playing and so on, he
really made these come alive
and they still exist in part
because of him, I think.
>> Jorg Widmann: And I
think also the manuscript,
which I today saw, so the--
I did not know until today
that there is a clarinet piano
version in the handwriting
of Weber, which is just here,
very moving moment for me.
And I will play it, I promise.
I will play it with piano
also, I just did not know
about it, that it exists.
And the score is not
by him but with his,
you know, comments in it.
And, you know, he did not write
much-- a little bit like Mozart.
And let's not forget
that the wife
of Mozart was Constanze
Weber, so it's the same family
as Weber, so Weber was in
every moment of his life where,
you know, of-- you know, of--
>> Anne McLean: Connections.
>> Jorg Widmann: Yes,
of this connection.
But without Berman, these pieces
would not be possible even
to play because Weber
rarely writes any phrasing
or even dynamics.
So, Berman added some things.
>> Anne McLean: And even
the clarinets of those days,
I mean they made this--
the chromatic passage were
much easier I understand
and you were saying
that Mozart wrote these
with low clarinet
writing in mind
that not many people
were doing that then.
That this really was a
move forward and so on.
>> Jorg Widmann: I think
we should be so grateful
to these people and still
today I think you mentioned
when you played the
quartets and so on.
So, when we work today with the
living composers of our time,
you know, we know
that it's not--
I mean some composers
work like that.
They write a piece
and they give it to us
and we are executing
and performing it.
You know? But, with most of
them, it's a real exchange.
So, they're interested what's
possible on a clarinet,
you give them some ideas,
and they will turn it
into their language anyway,
but I think this
exchange is so important.
You know? And some of the works
which were written for me,
which I premiered in a concerto
of [inaudible], for example, I--
when I first saw it, I did
not think I will ever be able
to play it because his
clarinet concerto is 50 minutes
without any rest
for the clarinetist.
So, I had to do certain
exercises and techniques
and today it's a
standard piece for me.
So, if I would have told
him right away, no, no,
it's not possible, and we
could not-- or just imagine--
I don't want to put
it on the same level,
but you know the just principle,
let's imagine Berman saying,
you know, these runs
in the last movement
of the clarinet quintet,
it's insanely difficult.
Don't write it.
I mean we would not
have the piece today.
>> Anne McLean: Exactly.
How do you guys work on-- they
say it's a pocket concerto,
what somebody has written this--
how do you work on it together?
It must be so much fun.
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
Actually, we worked-- we were--
this is actually the first time
we played the Weber with Jorg.
We played the Mozart,
we played the Brahms,
but so this will be our first
Weber with-- yes, and we--
actually, we were going
to rehearse it yesterday
early evening,
but then travel problems and all
that, so we didn't get to until
like 9:45 and he'd just came
from Paris, we got stuck
in Detroit-- he was
totally jetlagged--
and then we come in there and,
you know, we start playing it.
And then him-- so we were
just after the rehearsal
like how are you going
to be when you're rested
because this is the fastest
Weber you will ever hear.
I mean we could barely
like, you know, keep up.
So-- but anyway.
But it's like-- but with a
piece like this, it's just so--
well, any kind of
rehearsing, no matter what,
no matter what the composer
or the period or any of it.
I mean it's all about,
you know, trying to--
you know, we have a
script and we're actors
and actresses trying
to convey what's there.
So, so much of the rehearsal I
find is just about characters
and how to like, you
know, find the ways
to convey those characters.
And even if you agree
on a character,
you may not always agree
on how to execute though.
So, much of us, you know,
what we were doing yesterday
was like, you know, finding--
trying to convey the spirit
and that means like timings
or tempo or this and that.
So, that's all we were
doing, but no different
than if we were doing
the Brahms I think or--
>> Jorg Widmann: That's
right, but at the same time,
really discovering, in a way,
because it's so original.
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson: Yeah.
>> Jorg Widmann: I think
that we were smiling
when we did the third movement,
it's called menuetto [phonetic],
which is actually
wrong, I think.
I mean to be-- you are not
able to dance this minuet.
No way possible because
it's so fast
and should be, I'm convinced.
So, it's on the edge of being
still a minuet, but she calls it
that way, and the
end of it is just--
I don't know any piece like
that in the 19th century
which ends with [humming].
That's it.
You know, it's a question-- only
bones, you know, it's almost--
a modern-day composer would
even add [inaudible] to it,
but you found a color which it
makes it sound really modern
in a way.
>> Anne McLean: You know, while
you were talking, I was thinking
about how you have this passion
and joy for this older music
and then obviously you
create new music every day
and you perform new music
every day and thinking about--
a comment I wanted to ask you--
Jorg, you've said your music is
meta-modern or you're interested
in meta-modernism and your
colleague Per Masumi has said
that working with you
is like having a foot--
one foot in the past
and-- not in the present--
one foot in the past and
one foot in the future.
And I like that.
And yet you're in the
present together, but, yeah,
talk about this idea
of meta-modernism.
>> Jorg Widmann: I
don't remember when I--
I said it's a nice word,
I should maybe use it.
No, but seriously I-- this--
to put it that way is a
beautiful way, you know,
one foot in the past and one--
it reminds me of last time
we were sitting here we were
talking about the Messiaen
quartet of the end of time
about the angel which has one
foot, you know, on the ground
and the other one in water in
the apocalypse of Johannes.
I can't think differently.
You mentioned that Weber
was a conductor, a pianist.
You know, for me, it never--
this tradition never stopped.
I think it happened
maybe in the 19th century
that people specialized and then
suddenly there was the concept
of the maestro, you know,
conductor, ingenious conductor,
you know, who does all
these magical things.
Then strange composers who were
at their places write
this strange music,
then the virtuoso, you know?
To me, it felt always
strange, this, you know,
that it went apart so much.
To me, it's music, you know,
and to me it's still valid,
this approach of music.
>> Anne McLean: Last week,
we talked with Richard Egarr,
who's the man who conducts the
Academy of Ancient Music and,
like you, he was saying-- we
were talking about, you know,
things technical, hand positions
and do you change your position
from keyboard-- from the
piano to the clavichord
and he said no, I don't really.
He said I hear the
music in my mind
and that's what I
want to come out.
It's the same with your
techniques as a string quartet.
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson: Yeah.
Exactly. That's exactly right.
>> Anne McLean: And I was--
back to the string quartet,
I was going to ask you about--
I know you don't want to talk
about the Hunt Quartet,
but let's talk for a moment
about the extended
string writing
and those techniques in there.
Are those challenging?
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
Yeah, I mean they're--
well, you have to figure it out.
So, I mean, so-- but now
that we've figured out, no,
they all like make
so much sense now.
They like seem, you know,
natural, but there--
yeah, there are different
techniques you will hear
like he has us do not
only just [inaudible],
which is when you hit with
the stick of the bow--
a lot of composers use that,
which has a very kind of--
a specific-- like
it's percussive,
but it has sort of
overtones as well.
But he has us like play
around with where we hit it
on the fingerboard,
which creates actually a whole
different set of pitches,
which is amazing, and then
he has us-- in the beginning,
we are whipping our bows,
but we're doing in unison,
so that creates actually
a sound.
And then we are actually
scrubbing the hair with the bows
and it also creates a very
specific and very appropriate
for what is going
on in the character.
But I want to stress what I said
earlier, like all these sounds,
I mean, I just-- knowing Jorg
and having done this piece,
it's like, you know,
you must have just--
I don't know how you
even found these sounds.
You were looking for some kind
of characters and kind of mood
and I don't know if your sister
helped you or like, you know,
to find like these-- his sister
is a wonderful violinist.
So, like, you know,
if you were just
like experimenting because--
since I was mentioning George
Crumb, once we were working
with him on the Black Angels
and there's this place
in the Black Angels where
he has you have thimbles
and we're supposed to do
this thing in staccato
in like a thimble and then
it's all amplified and we just,
you know, we were doing it,
and it's like yeah, you know--
and he doesn't play the violin--
it's like well, yes, it's nice,
but then he took my violin and
then he put these thimbles on
and he just like-- I mean it's
like incredibly magical sounds.
And, like, watched it, and
he just told me had been just
like in his office or in
his room, he was just like--
had some sound in mind and he
was just like looking for it
until he just finally found it.
So, no matter what it took--
and so all the extramusical
sounds you hear in his piece,
I mean they just have such an
emotional, specific meaning,
which is why it's a great piece
and why you're a great composer.
>> Jorg Widmann: I don't know,
but it has a dramatic
meaning also.
I mean mentioning this very
beginning of the piece,
what I liked about it, it's
the gesture you make is a very
brutal one, but the sound
which comes out is very subtle.
I like this combination
of [whistling sounds]
and then the piece starts.
So, it all starts in
A major, the piece,
it's really clean,
positive A major.
So, to me that's composing.
Putting together things you
would not imagine all the sounds
Sibbi just mentioned
being combined in a piece
which starts in A major.
To me, that's already composing,
putting these things together,
and here in this piece
it's a real drama
and at some places the
piece was premiered--
by the way, also in
Badenweiler at this place
by the Arditti Quartet
who did all kinds
of modern things in their life.
You know, they probably
did every sound
from burning a violin to, you
know, to the most silent sounds,
and they were laughing
and stopping
and because the sounds
were new to them.
So, sometimes-- I'm
not a string player,
but for this piece I spent
half a night with a cello just
to experiment how it
feels and I experimented
with some of the sounds.
There's one behind the
bridge, you know, these--
when you press on a
certain part and then trill
and I think that's a really
new sound, but it's not only--
it's not good because it's
new or bad because it's new,
but I think there
are some new sounds.
Take it, what I said jokingly
before, that I join you
as a child, it comes
from me like--
it's like a child
would be at a piano.
It would probably not play a C
major chord in middle register,
it would probably move to the
edges of the piano and repeat.
So, this kind of being
curious that's very important
in my music.
>> Anne McLean: And
this is the piece
with the papillon quote, right?
And people-- I've read
other people say oh, no,
it's Beethoven's seventh
symphony rhythms and so on,
but that isn't correct.
But tell us why this quote.
>> Jorg Widmann: I
needed a simple rhythm.
Since it's called
the Hunt Quartet,
I needed a very clear
hunt rhythm.
And the hunt rhythm throughout
all centuries is [humming]
and that's of course Beethoven's
seventh, you all know,
the first movement of
Beethoven's seventh,
which was really a revolution
in music history, I think,
because when you look at
the chord, it really looks
like a pattern of
wallpaper even because it's--
everything is less
important in this chord
than the rhythm itself.
You find this rhythm
throughout this whole movement.
I was very impressed by that.
But you're absolutely right.
The quote, it only turns up
very quickly and then it goes
to a different direction.
I have to tell you the truth.
I was not even aware it was a--
and I'm such a Schumann fan,
but I was not aware
in this moment when--
I just had to start the piece
with this positive gesture,
so I started with this
[whistling] [humming]
and then comes this-- which is
actually an old German folk tune
which Schumann used in the
Papillon, and then I admit
on page four or something I
had the feeling I know this
from somewhere.
And then I researched--
did some research on it
and actually it's a
very important motif
in Schumann's life.
It also turns up in
the davidsbundlertanze.
It turns up in the Eichendorff
songs in a slow version
when the text says I wish I
would be a bird then I would fly
over the seas, you know,
then it's the slow version.
But it's just the
starting point--
and more important to me, of
course, is what I do with it.
It's almost to the point that I
destroy it, but not the rhythm.
At the end of the piece
you will hear this rhythm,
but played on the bridge, kind
of dead sound [mimics sound].
So, that's what I'm
interested in and fascinated
by that you can start a
piece with the same rhythm
and the whole piece
is 12 minutes,
but for you it must feel
like a whole symphony
because the amount of notes
since it's that fast, you know,
it's-- I have the greatest
admiration for how you do this.
And they are doing it right.
You know, they could
fake it, but they don't.
>> Anne McLean: Since
this is a cycle,
do you ever have performers
who want to do it say
over two days, all five of them?
Or I know the Minguet
Quartett has recorded them all.
Anyone else has recorded
all of them?
>> Jorg Widmann: The Leipzig
String Quartet did as well
and when it's performed, it's in
one evening, so it's two halves,
like 45 plus 45 minutes.
There has to be a-- like
tonight, an intermission
after the Hunt Quartet
because players are dead.
>> Anne McLean: Well, I was
thinking about the instruments
that you use because I know all
of you have older instruments.
You have a Testore, is it?
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
Yeah, actually--
well, since now I have a new
violin-- well, old violin,
but yeah, new, so I used
to have a Testore, yeah.
You really did your research.
>> Anne McLean: But I was
interested in thinking of all
of these players with these
beautiful old instruments
like we have here and--
so how was that for you?
Doing modern music of any
kind, not just Jorg's music,
but it must be just
second nature to you now?
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson:
Yeah, well,
I mean that's what we have
those-- I mean the instruments,
of course, have been
so modernized.
I mean we play on steel strings
and like, you know, the bridges
and all that, so-- but yeah, no,
but this is-- these
are our tools.
But, you know, you are right.
We-- in our quartet, we
do have old instruments.
My instrument was made in 1712.
Simin's instrument
was made in 1710.
Masumi's instrument was made in
1619 and our cellist, Brandon,
he has the-- one of the oldest--
there are only two cellos still
that exist by that
maker, Gasparo da Salo.
His cello was made in 1580's.
I mean his cello
is older than Bach.
Yeah.
>> Jorg Widmann: My
clarinet was built in 1993.
[ Laughter ]
>> Anne McLean: And, in fact,
you're one of now the more
older generation, kind of,
of string quartets
of your group.
It's funny to say that,
but I was reading this
and I was thinking
wait a minute,
they're not really an older
generation, but you've been--
what is it, 20-something
years now?
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson: Yeah.
So, the-- and actually
not only-- yeah, we are--
the quartet is about 22 years
old and this membership has been
since 2001 and there's
actually only one touring group
that has a membership
that is older than us
and that's the Brentano
by one year,
but even the Emerson
are younger than us
because they have a
more recent cellist.
Yeah. Yeah, so we are now
officially a senior group.
Yeah.
>> Anne McLean: I was reading
that the Budapest
Quartet had said--
the members said it take five
years to learn how to play
as one and a lifetime to learn
how to play as individuals,
examining individuality within
the quartet structure helped
to free us up with
our entire repertoire.
I was very interested by that.
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson: Yeah.
No, I mean that's exactly right.
And I think, like, you know,
when we first started and I see
that with young quartets
there's so much time spent just
like trying to blend
and be unified and--
which is completely
important and necessary,
because one of the hard things
about quartets and why we have
to rehearse so much is because
we are four brains but we have
to become one and we have to--
we can't really compromise or--
because then the
music is compromised.
We have to come up
to a consensus
and that just takes a lot
of time to try to find
like a third way that may be
better or come to a consensus.
But that's a very valuable quote
because when the music
requires us to be unified,
we have to be unified, but then
when the music requires not
to be, we have to be able to,
you know, do exactly that.
And actually playing Elliott
Carter taught us that very well
because he is so into
individuality and how
that represents sort of people
in general and how they interact
and in his second quartet he
actually asked us to sit as far
as practical from each other
and we actually keep us a
character throughout the entire
piece and are kind of
oblivious of each other,
but it still somehow works.
And then actually after we did
that and then coming back--
and I remember right after that
we were rehearsing Brahms' A
minor quartet, which of course
completely different music,
but sort of the issues of
sort of balancing and voicing,
somehow-- like somewhere in the
back of our ears we were sort
of in this Carter mode and
it actually really helped.
Like sort of separating the
voices in a certain way.
So, back to what we were talking
about earlier, we are so lucky
in the string quartet
that there's just
such great literature,
like from Haydn
and people are still
interested--
Jorg is still interested
in writing quartets.
For some reason, this medium
is still so fresh and exciting.
So, we're very lucky that
we can play great music
that is written today
and that was written 250
or 300 years ago.
So, we're just-- we can
just focus on great music
and the language will be
different, but it's still all
about communication
and characters.
And one of my favorite
quotes is from Robert Mann
of the Juilliard Quartet
and his famous quote is
like old music should
be played as if it's new
and new music should be
played as if it's old.
And I think that's
exactly right.
>> Anne McLean: It's so
much fun to talk with you
because there are so
many avenues to go down,
but maybe some of you
have some questions
for Jorg and Sibbi, perhaps.
We'll bring you a
microphone here.
>> Thank you very much.
I just wanted to ask you-- you
mentioned about the essence
of clarinet and how
Weber understood it.
Could you describe
what the essence
of the clarinet is for you?
>> Jorg Widmann:
It's a very good
but very tough question
to answer.
I am happy that I have
the clarinet tonight
to answer it in my way.
I think this incredible
ability of the clarinet
to develop this sound from
nothing and at the end
of the note to let it
disappear in nothing.
That, especially in this
Weber quintet, you will hear
in the second movement.
There is one place which was in
music history not done before.
You know? There's an echo place.
You play fortissimo
a chromatic scale--
so, just recently
developed technique.
Mozart did that technique.
There are also echo effects,
but here it's spectacular.
On the edge of being
heard, you know?
An oboe, beautiful instrument,
but that's for sure not
the foremost character
which would come to your mind
when you think of an oboe.
So, this-- or take the Mozart
clarinet concerto just air
and this piano melody which is
pianissimo when it comes back.
It's hard for me
to put in words.
It's also something when
you play it, you feel--
there is some great
music, but it's kind
of against the instrument,
so we have to fight it.
It does not make the
music worse, you know,
don't misunderstand me, but
here the music is so fantastic,
but it's written for
this instrument--
they really understood
the spirit.
In Brahms, it's different.
It's in a way more difficult
because he does not
give you a rest.
You know? So, it's-- in Brahms,
the difficult thing I think is
that it's the absence of
virtuosity of outside virtuous--
of what we call virtuosity,
which is always digital
virtuosity.
So, in Brahms, it's
singing for 45 minutes.
Here in the Weber, I think
it's a fantastic combination
of all the things which are
possible in the clarinet.
I think it's like a love
declaration to the clarinet.
I think I did not satisfyingly
answer your question,
but I tried.
>> Anne McLean: Well,
I think we're good.
Anything else?
Final thoughts, gentleman?
>> Sibbi Bernhardsson: No, we're
just really looking forward.
It's great to play in this great
hall with so much like legacy
and history and, yeah,
thanks for having us.
>> Anne McLean: Thank you, yes.
Thanks so much.
[ Applause ]
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