>> From the Library of
Congress in Washington, D.C.
>> Pam Jackson: Hi, good
afternoon, how is everybody doing?
>> Good.
>> Pam Jackson: Great.
I am Pam Jackson, I'm director
for the Center for the Book here
at the Library of Congress and we
are proud to be part of the National
and International Outreach
Unit of the Library of Congress
and we welcome you
to this afternoon's book
talk for Books and Beyond.
We have here at the Library
of Congress the mission for us
to promote, first of all, we
like to always remind people we
are the nation's first cultural
institution, and it is our mission
to provide people with a very rich,
enduring source of knowledge
that is designed to inspire
and excite intellectual and creative
endeavors, and we certainly believe
that has been the case with today's
author, who spent time researching
in our collections the book that
he is here to discuss today,
and it's an award-winning book,
that we will mention in
just a moment or two.
I'd like to mention that the
Center for the Book is focused
on making connections between
and among our networks,
and for the purpose of
reading and literacy promotion,
and using the library's
collections, programming,
resources, and contents to do so.
We believe very strongly in
promoting books and libraries
and literacy and reading for
the purpose of having informed
and engaged societies, and we like
to promote that we are focused
on making sure that he humane is in
the humanities as we do our work,
and that is our focus for this year.
So as I mentioned that the
author researched his book here
at the library, and it is a
chief criteria for the books
that we promote and the
Books and Beyond Series,
that they have a connection
to the Library of Congress,
and that is either because they are
written unpublished by the Library
of Congress or about the Library
of Congress, or as a result
of using the collections
of the Library of Congress
and we encourage our friends and
associates and members of the public
to do all of that, and are glad
to have today's author,
who has done just that.
So before I introduce him, I'd like
to take this moment to remind you
if you could check your mobile
devices, make sure they're
on silent, so that they are
not a distraction and it is
because we are recording
today's talk.
And you should know in advance, the
author will share about his work,
and there will be a short Q and
A answer session at the end.
So if you are participating
in that, you will be recorded
and a part of our webcast.
Also I can mention that at
Read.gov, you can find more than 250
of our videos of author talks
and activities and events
that we've had here at the library.
It's a very rich collection
unto itself,
and we encourage you to
explore that as well.
Also the book is for sale, outside,
and after our session there
will be a short book signing.
And we'd like to remind you
that is available, both the sale
and the purchase here, and then
the book signing over here.
So today's author is Larrie
Ferreiro, and he teaches History
and Engineering at George
Mason University in Fairfax.
And at the Stevens Institute
of Technology in New Jersey.
And he served for more than 35
years in the U.S. Navy, Coast Guard,
and Department of Defense,
and was an exchange
engineer in the French Navy.
He has a PhD in the History of
Science, from Imperial College
of London, and his other books
include Measure of the Earth,
The Enlightenment Expedition
That Shaped Our World.
Now his new book is what he
is here to talk to us about,
Brothers at Arms: American
Independence and the Men
of France and Spain Who Saved It.
And did I say that right?
Yeah, and the men of France
and Spain Who Saved It.
And it's a remarkable, untold story
of the American Revolution's
success, and how it depended
on a substantial military assistance
provided by France and Spain
that some of us may not know about
or be present to some
of the details.
So we are excited to
have him here today.
We have learned that the book
is a winner of the Journal
of the American Revolution 2016 Book
of the Year Award, and as recently
as yesterday we also learned that
this book, it's a fabulous piece,
has received the Pulitzer Prize
Finalist Award in History.
So congratulations
[applause begins] and welcome!
[ Applause ]
>> Larrie Ferreiro:
Pulitzer Prize finalist...
>> Pam Jackson: Pulitzer
Prize Finalist.
>> Larrie Ferreiro:
Didn't get the award.
>> Pam Jackson: Didn't
get the award.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Yeah.
>> Pam Jackson: Thank you so much
for joining us, please welcome.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: It's a pleasure.
[ Applause ]
>> Larrie Ferreiro: And the
Library of Congress has a,
among many other things, a fantastic
collection of correspondence,
copies of correspondence, between
many of the major actors in France
and Spain, and then their
American interlocutors,
which was a significant source
for much of my research.
So in 1776, America was fighting
Britain in a war for independence,
but without a Navy,
without artillery,
and even without gunpowder.
And only France and Spain, who were
the historical enemies of Britain,
had both the motive and the
Naval and military strength
to be able to defeat the British.
So we needed their alliance.
But they would only do so
if America was seen not
as fighting a civil war,
but rather as fighting a war
as an independent nation.
John Adams, who was no fan
of foreign interventions,
said foreign powers could not
be expected to acknowledge us,
until we had acknowledged
ourselves as an independent nation.
And Thomas Jefferson had said
during the debates over the writing
of the Declaration, the Declaration
of Independence alone could allow
European powers to treat with us.
So the Declaration was not
written for King George the Third.
He had already gotten
the memo [laughter].
He actually said in October the
previous year that the fighting
in Lexington, Concord, and
elsewhere, was specifically aimed
at making America an
independent nation.
So he already understood
that, and the Americans knew.
The Declaration wasn't written
for the American people.
They had sent their delegates to
Philadelphia quite specifically
to declare for independence, and to
write a written declaration of such
which had never been
done before in the world.
If you wanted to become independent,
you fought a war, you won,
and you were independent.
No declaration needed.
So the Declaration of
Independence was, in fact,
an engraved invitation
asking France and Spain
to come fight alongside us.
Which is why I say in the book that
it was not just the Declaration
of Independence, it was
also the declaration
that we depend on France.
And Spain too.
Now, the Americans knew that France
and Spain wanted a
rematch with Great Britain.
They come out very badly in the
Seven Years War, which had ended
against Britain in 1763, with
France losing Canada to Britain,
and Spain losing Florida.
Now, France and Spain were
already closely allied
by family and military ties.
It was called the Bourbon Family
Compact, the two kings were,
in fact, directly descended
from Louis the Fourteenth.
Both nations wanted revenge, [French
word spoken], against Britain.
And that was actually what
they called the policy.
But they had different goals.
France wanted to regain the
balance of power in Europe.
Spain wanted to regain Gibraltar,
and drive the British
from the Gulf of Mexico.
And both nations had predicted the
American Revolution long before many
Americans even knew
that it would happen.
You can see the quote
from the Duc de Choiseul,
who was the French
Foreign Minister in 1767.
Only the future American
Revolution will consign England
to a state of weakness.
That isn't an "if"
statement, that's a "when."
Because they knew that
this future revolt
in the American colonies
would weaken Britain.
Because of that, they sent
spies and observers to America,
people like the Baron de Kalb
[phonetic spelling] to see
when that would happen
because they wanted to make use
of that revolution when it happened
to further their own aims
of weakening Britain.
That revolution would not
happen for another eight years.
When the fighting began in 1775,
the British Army was supplied
by gun factories which
would turn out hundreds
of thousands of guns per year.
The few American gunsmiths
that there were could produce
perhaps one gun per month.
We needed weapons from France and
Spain, and France and Spain did,
indeed, provide arms to the
insurgents, but they used merchants
like the Diego de Gardoqui, and
Pierre Carron de Beaumarchais,
as front men to disguise the
source of the arms which were
from the British, sorry from the
French and the Spanish governments.
But the British were not fooled.
In the end, over 90% of all the
guns used in the conflict came
from overseas, France and Spain, who
also provided 30 billion, with a B,
dollars, equivalent
in aid during the war.
And that doesn't count the other
parts that they helped us with,
which I will get to in a minute.
Beaumarchais worked with
Cyalstine [phonetic spelling],
who was the American envoy in Paris,
to negotiate a contract for arms,
and he was doing so even
before news of the Declaration
of Independence had reached
the shores of France.
In 1776 and 1777, five
Beaumarchais ships carried arms
across the Atlantic to supply
15,000 American troops who arrayed
to meet Burgoyne at Saratoga.
And it was these French arms
that turned the tide of battle.
And you can see this
quote from somebody
who knew what he was talking about,
because he was at the battle.
Caleb Stark.
Unless these Beaumarchais arms
had been thus timely furnished
to the Americans, Burgoyne would
have made an easy march to Albany,
and that victory at Saratoga
turned the tide of the war,
because it was the
first major victory
that the Americans
had in the entire war.
Meanwhile, most of the French
and European volunteers who came
to the United States
came to do so in order
to fight their longtime
enemies, the British.
But along the way, they made
the American cause their own,
and George Washington came to
depend upon these immigrants
who got the job done,
as the Hamilton musical
so aptly describes [laughter].
Luis Lebegue Duportail [phonetic
spelling] became Washington's Chief
Engineer, and Chief Strategist,
and planned the fortifications
and sieges.
Baron von Steuben put together the
training plan for George Washington
that made the Continental Army,
previously a collection of militia,
into a consolidated
professional fighting force.
And, of course, the Marquis
de Lafayette commanded troops
in the southern theater.
He kept Cornwallis
from coming north,
and he eventually followed
Cornwallis all the way to Yorktown.
Now, the Battle of Brandywine
in 1777 was Washington's attempt
to prevent the British from
occupying the capitol, Philadelphia.
But it also was the trial
by fire for these French
and European volunteers,
who up until that point,
had been mistrusted
by the Americans.
Remember, they had just finished
fighting the French just a decade
earlier, so that would explain
comments like Nathanael Green,
so many spies in our camp.
The Battle of Brandywine changed
all that, and it certainly proved
that they were not spies.
In fact, they were very brave
and courageous fighters.
The Polish officer,
Pulaski, led a cavalry charge
that saved the Continental
troops in retreat.
Fleury [phonetic spelling],
who was an engineer,
was commended for particular
bravery, and in fact, the Army Corps
of Engineers today now
has the Fleury Medal
for courage and boldness.
And Lafayette himself was wounded
while leading an infantry charge,
and George Washington commanded
his own doctor to treat him
as if "he were my own son."
So after the Battle of Brandywine,
that initial distrust changed
and turned first into
acceptance, and then into reliance.
For Greene, so many spies in our
camp relied heavily on both Steuben
and Lafayette during
his southern campaign.
Back at Versailles, and the first
season on Ovation has now ended,
but I think you can still
see it probably on Netflix,
season two should be starting
soon, back at Versailles,
the French Foreign Minister,
the Comte de Vergennes,
was the single most important
character in this entire story,
because he and he alone made
almost all of the key decisions
that affected the alliance between
the Americans and the French,
and almost all the key decisions
that affected the outcome
of the war.
Now, his primary goal, as I'd
mentioned, was the have the war
of American independence
sufficiently weaken Britain,
so that the European balance of
power tilted back in France's favor,
and he had already decided
to ally with the Americans,
even before the Battle of Saratoga.
Because having provided
arms to the Americans,
and seeing that they had far
more defeats than victories.
He was afraid, in fact,
he was certain
that the Americans
would lose the war.
And the thought of a reunited
British empire in North America,
which could threaten the
French sugar colonies,
and that is where the money was,
the plantations in the Caribbean,
that thought was unsupportable.
So, the American victory at
Saratoga did not convince the French
to ally with the Americans.
It simply gave Vergennes the
pretext he needed to carry
out the decision he
had already made.
Now, that treaty which was signed
in 1778 effectively brought France
into the war against Britain,
and it brought the French Navy
to American shores,
and that was key.
Because any battle with Britain
at that time was always going
to be a Naval, sorry, any war
with Britain, at that time,
was always going to be a
Naval war, because that is
where Britain's strength was.
Having the French Navy on
the American shores meant,
for the first time, that the British
could not at their will move troops
from place to place, resupply
them, redeploy arms and munitions.
It is the reason why the British
had to evacuate Philadelphia,
after only being there nine months,
because they could not risk being
bottled up by the French Navy,
and have to consolidate their
troops in New York City.
Now, at this time, as I mentioned,
Spain was allied with France,
but they could not take
the risk of going to war
against Britain in early 1778.
Now, the reason is that they had
a treasure fleet still at sea.
It was carrying 50
billion, with a B, dollars,
equivalent in silver from Peru.
And until that silver
was safely home,
they could not risk
having the British predate
on the convoy and capture it.
It was not until the end of 1778
when the treasure fleet was
safely home that Spain was free
to go to war with Britain.
Vergennes counterpart, the
Spanish Foreign Minister
of the Conde de Floridablanca,
had established the Spanish goals
of the war, as recovering Gibraltar,
and driving the British
from the Gulf of Mexico.
And right after the Treaty
of 1778, between the French
and the Americans, which brought
France into war against Britain,
Spain offered to mediate between
France and Britain, provided,
provided they got Gibraltar.
But Britain refused.
Now, Floridablanca, in
one of his usual tirades,
considered Gibraltar just this pile
of rocks, which causes problems.
But for the British, Gibraltar
was a strategic outpost
that guarded the entrance to the
Mediterranean or to the Atlantic,
depending upon your point of view,
and for that strategic importance,
Britain, that pile of
rocks called Gibraltar,
Britain effectively
sacrificed all of America
for that strategic
outpost of Gibraltar.
Now, with Britain unwilling to
negotiate, Spain agreed to go
into the war alongside France.
They would not ally directly with
the Americans for their own reasons,
but they agreed that
the war could not end
until Britain had recognized the
United States as a sovereign nation.
The entry of Spain into
the war, alongside France,
fundamentally changed
the nature of the war.
From a regional conflict in
North America, to a global war.
And the reason was, is that the
British Navy and the British Army
to some extent, now had to be
spread far thinner around the globe,
and it was because the
combined Navy of France
and Spain were overwhelming.
By itself, the French Navy could
not hope to defeat Britain.
By itself, the Spanish
Navy could not.
But together, the Bourbon Fleet
was 124 ships of the line,
those were the major
warships that fought battles,
against Britain's 95 ships, and
Britain was simply overwhelmed.
So, instead of just attacking
the Americans in North America,
the British now had
to shield England
from an invasion by
France and Spain.
They had to defend against
the siege of Gibraltar.
They had to defend their colonies
in the Caribbean, their colonies
in South Africa, their
colonies in India, from attack.
All of this was happening
in 1779 and 1780,
as the war in the Americas was
coming to its lowest point,
and you can see from Alexander
Hamilton's despondent comment,
"If we are saved, France
and Spain must save us."
That the Americans now understood
that winning the war rested
with France and Spain.
Now, the invasion of
Britain was going
to be always the centerpiece
of the Bourbon strategy.
After Spain had declared war in
1779, the two nations formed a fleet
of 150 ships, and 30,000
troops to invade Britain.
That was larger even than the
famous Spanish Armada of 1588.
Now, the planned invasion of Britain
was going to capture Portsmouth
and Southampton, it was going to
wreak havoc on the British economy,
and then potentially bring
Britain to the peace table.
But that expedition was sidelined
by a massive dysentery outbreak,
which laid low 8,000 men, and which
the French Admiral's son died.
The Spanish Admiral, because the
French Admiral was, after that,
incapable of carrying out
orders, the Spanish Admiral,
Luis de Cordova, also tried but with
this many people sick and dying,
he was unable to carry out the
invasion, and it simply fizzled out.
Now, as a side note to this massive
invasion, as part of the planning,
the French Navy asked this
relatively unknown American captain,
John Paul Jones, to create
a diversion for the British
by sailing a small squadron
around the British Isles,
and capture some merchant
ships, hoping that some
of the British Admirals might
follow him and be diverted.
Now, no British admiral was foolish
enough to follow John Paul Jones,
and his diversion was
largely ignored.
Certainly, it played no part
in the outcome of the battle.
It certainly did not cause anything
like a panic within Britain,
but there was a battle that
occurred off of Flamborough Head,
in which John Paul Jones' small
frigate, the Bonhomme Richard,
was able to defeat a much
larger British frigate,
which was guarding a
convoy, the Serapis.
The commander of Serapis
was knighted,
because he did his job,
he protected the convoy.
The convoy escaped, and a good
British commander was going
to fight his ship until
death to protect the convoy.
But, for the Americans,
this was a striking moment
of David vs. Goliath, which stood
in for the much larger
British and American conflict.
At that time, it was a sorely
needed shot in the arm.
Now, back in New Orleans,
Bernardo de Galvez was the Governor
of Spanish Louisiana.
Now, for those of you who
work here in the Congress
or are frequent visitors to the
Congress, you might recognize
that portrait on the left.
Because a copy of that portrait was
hung in the year 2014 at the event
of his becoming an honorary
American citizen in the Senate Wing,
first floor, in front of the Foreign
Relations Committee Room, Room S116,
which is all the way on the north
side in case you want to find it.
So if you want to write that
down [laughter], Room S116,
Foreign Relations Committee,
North side, Senate Wing.
Galvez had supplied American
troops in the Western theater,
which was up along the Mississippi,
all the way to Fort Pitt,
which is not Pittsburgh.
He supplied them with money.
He supplied them with arms,
with munitions, with gunpowder.
But when Spain declared war in 1779,
he immediately launched a series
of lightening attacks that
captured the British post
at Mobile, Nachez, and Baton Rouge.
And then, after several hurricanes
had set him back, in 1781,
he commanded a joint Spanish-French
force, that captured Pensacola,
which was the British
capitol of West Florida.
So with Britain out of West Florida,
Spain now ruled the Gulf of Mexico
and Britain was no longer a threat.
And because they were no longer a
threat, when a French Naval force,
under the command of the Comte
de Grasse arrived shortly
after that battle of Pensacola,
he asked the Spanish Navy
to protect the French colonies,
which was his primary job,
while he took his entire fleet
for a short trip northward,
to the Chesapeake Bay.
So it was because of the Battle of
Pensacola that de Grasse was able
to take his entire fleet north
for the actions that would occur.
Washington and Rochambeau
had learned
that the Comte de Grasse
was going to the Chesapeake,
so they raced south from
New York to meet him,
in order to surround
Cornwallis at Yorktown.
The Comte de Grasse was a
fighting admiral who was beloved
by his sailors, and
they said of him,
the Comte de Grasse
stands six foot four,
and six foot five on days of battle.
And yes, since you asked [laughter],
he was one of the ancestors
of that Rockstar astrophysicist...
>> Neil-
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Neil de Grasse
Tyson, that's correct [laughter].
Now, when the Comte de
Grasse met George Washington
on his Quarterdeck, and by the way,
George Washington stood two
inches shorter than de Grasse,
de Grasse embraced Washington and
exclaimed, "Mon petit General!"
[laughter].
De Grasse's fleet was
landing troops around Yorktown
when the British fleet, under
Thomas Graves, appeared.
De Grasse quickly sortied his entire
fleet from the Chesapeake Bay,
and fought off Graves, which
prevented him from resupplying
or evacuating Cornwallis, and
again, to underline the point,
it is not clear he would have won
that battle had he not had
his entire fleet with him.
The fact that Thomas Graves could
not enter the Chesapeake sealed the
fate of the British
Army at Yorktown.
Now, the story of Yorktown
is very well-known.
After Rochambeau and Washington had
led their troops on a quick march
from New York to Yorktown,
they surrounded Cornwallis.
The siege began October 9, 1781.
The guns blasted away for five days
while the siege lines advanced.
French officers directed the siege.
French officers directed the
placement of the trenches.
French officers directed
the gunfire.
The French also suffered twice
the casualties of the Americans.
Once the French and American troops
had captured British readouts 9
and 10, the situation for
Cornwallis was untenable.
So when Brigadier General Charles
O'Hara, who was Cornwallis' second
in command, came out to offer
the surrender, he saw the victory
as a French one, and he offered
the surrender to Rochambeau.
Now, Rochambeau knew it
was a French victory,
but he also knew the moment belonged
to Washington, so, without a word,
Rochambeau directed
O'Hara to Washington.
Washington was not going to
take a surrender, or rather,
accept a surrender, from someone
else's second in command, so he,
in turn, gestured O'Hara to his own
second in command, Benjamin Lincoln,
who then accepted the surrender,
and the battle of Yorktown was over.
Now, the battle of Yorktown
was over, but that didn't mean
that the war had come to an end.
Vergennes fully understood that,
it is not in the English character
to give up so easily,
he told Lafayette.
But even though there were no
more major battles in America,
after Yorktown, and there
were a number of skirmishes,
the fighting continued around
the world between Britain
and the Bourbon Alliance.
By this time, 1781, Britain was
fighting five separate nations,
without an ally to its name.
They were overwhelmed.
You can see the different conflicts.
The assault on Gibraltar.
The siege of Gibraltar absorbed
60,000 Spanish troops alone
in a four-year siege that
ultimately failed, and yes,
that is a mushroom
cloud over Gibraltar,
that is how violent the battle was.
The Dutch Republic was also drawn
into the war for allowing supplies
to go to France, and the
Anglo-Dutch War was very violent.
France had allied with the
Kingdom of Mysor in India,
in order to drive the British East
India company from the subcontinent.
That also failed, and the
battles were also violent.
And in fact, the last
major battle of the war
of American independence
was the battle of Cuddalore,
fought in India, and
that happened six months
after the preliminary peace
treaties had been signed.
The peace of 1783 ended eight
years of war, and during that time,
200,000 French and Spanish soldiers
and sailors fought in the war,
compared with an estimated
250,000 to 380,000 Americans.
France and Spain were as in
vested in this war as we were.
America could never have
won the war without France.
France could never have
fought the war without Spain.
So, what I want all of you to take
away from this is the following.
The United States did not
achieve independence by itself.
It was, in fact, born
as the centerpiece
of an international
coalition, which worked together
to defeat a common adversary, and it
is America's role as the centerpiece
of international efforts
for a common good
that continues even today
to define the United States
as the indispensable nation.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
>> I'll take questions,
but I wasn't certain
if the people asking the questions
needed to have a microphone?
>> No, but if you could
repeat the questions?
>> Larrie Ferreiro: I will,
and if I forget, remind me.
So I-go ahead.
>> Larrie, it's marvelous,
I look forward to the book.
You mentioned in passing that
the Spanish did not ally directly
with the United States, what was
the Spanish thinking on that?
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Both
France and Spain had colonies
and possessions just as Britain
did, and they were also monarchies.
They did not want the example of the
United States successfully rebelling
against its colonial masters to
somehow seep into the consciousness.
France was always a
little bit reluctant,
but Spain had far more to lose.
They owned almost all
of the Americas south
of really what we would
call today, you know,
West of the Mississippi,
and all the way south.
I'm not trying to give Brazil short
drift, I assure you [laughter],
and they were constantly on guard,
because during over 200 years
of occupation from the 1530s is
when they really began
[coughs] the conquest that led
to the different Spanish
empires, and vice royalties.
They had major uprisings,
about every 10 years or so.
There were usually uprisings
by the indigenous nations,
against quite severe abuses, and
they were put down very violently.
In fact, during the time
of the battle of Pensacola,
there was an uprising in
central, what is today Peru,
by Tupec Hamaru [phonetic
spelling], and it was brutal.
And I really would prefer not to
describe how and why it was brutal,
but that particular uprising
was one of the worst.
And again, you know, quite,
the Spanish were quite firm
that they did not want to see
anything that looked like, you know,
an overthrow of their own monarchy.
It didn't help, because 30 years
later, what I can tell you is,
from 1776, when basically
three nations occupied most
of the Americas, France, Portugal,
France, Britain, Spain and Portugal,
35 or 40 years later, it was the
home to over 25 independent nations
which had broken the
shackles, and were now free.
So that was what happened
starting in 1776.
Does that help?
>> Great.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Ma'am?
>> With your research,
I'm wondering,
did you come across any
information that would be surprising
to most mainstream U.S. citizens,
who grew up on generic
American history?
>> Larrie Ferreiro: So the question
was, what would come as a surprise
to somebody who had read the
textbooks of their youth,
and the answer is everything
[laughter].
You know, let me tell you just
a tiny bit about the genesis.
My doctorate is History of Science,
and I was studying the science
of ship building in the age of sail,
and learned that France and Spain,
during this time, had combined
forces, traded engineers,
and shipbuilders to create a single
navy in order to defeat Britain,
and it was that navy that was
then employed during the war
of American independence to,
you know, to become victorious.
So I knew this.
And when my children were in school,
the French nation was
barely mentioned.
Spain certainly got no mention
at all, and I began to wonder,
why is there such a gap
between what I know to be true,
and what is usually taught.
Now, I actually go into some
detail toward the end of the book,
which I encourage you to
buy, by the way [laughter],
to that explains why I
think that was the case,
and the short answer is,
there was a long history
of American exceptionalism that
began in the Manifest Destiny idea
of pushing westward,
kind of 1830s, 1840s,
and then just kept
moving, and I explain why.
So, when I decided I was going
to, that there was a book there,
and after I had finished schlepping
my kids up and down battlefields
and encampments [laughter],
Ticonderoga, Valley Forge, Saratoga,
explaining about the
Seven Years War to them,
which was by the way
a very effective way
of putting small children to sleep,
and I [laughter] this
is absolutely true.
I decided I would nail my colors
to the mast, and the title,
the subtitle, rather, says it all:
American Independence and the Men
of France and Spain Who Saved
It, no ifs, ands or buts.
So, again, your question was
what would be a surprise,
and my answer is: just
about everything.
Ma'am?
>> My name is [inaudible], and
I would like to get your advice
on what can we do as citizens
to give Spain the recognition
that it deserves?
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Oh, that
was a lob pitch [laughter],
the question was what can we do
to give Spain the recognition
that it deserves?
Do you want to introduce yourself?
Theresa? No?
Okay, I will-the portrait
you saw there is largely due
to the actions of people
like Teresa.
The lob is buy this book [laughter]
because it explains probably
in more detail than almost
any that I've seen to date,
just how vital the Spanish,
not just contribution,
but the way Spain was
integrally involved in our fight
for independence, long before we
even knew it was going to begin.
There are things happening
now, as I mentioned,
Bernardo de Galvez
has been recognized
as an honorary American citizen,
I am not completely certain he,
himself, would have agreed.
Because he was always
fighting for Spain.
He was very happy that the Americans
were going to become independent,
but let me be very clear.
Galvez, Rochambeau, to
some extent, Lafayette,
and all of the other people I
was speaking to, speaking about,
always fought for their country's
interest, and there is no,
there is nothing negative
to say about that.
Because if you commit to
helping another nation in war,
and you're committing your own
troops and your own resources,
it had better be in your
own national interest.
No leader worthy of her or his
name commits his nation to go
to war alongside another one,
unless it is in that
country's direct interest.
So they always had their
own direct interest in mind.
Now, that is something
else that perhaps is lost.
When you read about
French participation,
or more Spanish participation, but
we don't go and help our allies.
We certainly are on the eve of World
War I Centennial, and we did not go
over to help France and the allied
nations against the central powers
because we felt bad for them.
It was in our interest.
And our interests aligned.
That is really how diplomacy works.
So part of the recognition for
Spain is certainly understanding why
we align.
We see and we have to be
able to understand clearly
that alliances are
always in our interest.
America first has always meant being
able to operate with our allies
in pursuit of a common good.
That puts America first.
The second thing is to
buy the book [laughter].
But also, I think there is
a swell, in part because we
as a nation are changing.
We always did.
We've always been a nation
not just of immigrants,
but we have been a nation
that has adapted itself
to the immigrant population.
It is a far more complex
process than people coming
to the shores, and
becoming American.
We become the people who come over.
So with a larger number of
people who trace their roots
to the Spanish empire, I think
there is a growing realization
that frankly Spain was far
before Bernardo de Galvez,
far before Gardochi [phonetic
spelling], was a major force
in shaping this continent,
and our people.
And there are some wonderful books
I can recommend and I'd be happy
to talk about it with anybody
offline, which you should buy
after you buy my book [laughter].
And finally, I just want
to throw out one thing.
There is going to be a-- it's
under construction right now,
some of you may remember about three
years ago the French frigate replica
Hermione came to the
shores of the United States,
and it was promoting
the French involvement.
The Spanish are building a replica
of Bernardo de Galvez's ship,
which he humbly and shyly
named Galveztown [laughter]
and he was always known as a
very self-effacing character,
and that will be coming, I think,
to St. Augustine in the next years,
as an old shipbuilder myself,
it always takes longer,
and costs more than you expect.
So, I hope that at least
helped a little bit.
>> I learned New Orleneanian
[phonetic spelling],
and Louisiana history in 8th grade.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Galvez is a...
>> Galvez's story is
very prominently told,
the story of merchants that
were smuggling supplies
up the Mississippi River
to the American colonies.
There is a statue, an equestrian
statue, of Galvez dedicated in 1976
in front of the State Department.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: That's correct.
>> It was a gift of
the government of Spain
when Carlos came over and...
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Yep, yep.
>> Dedicated the statue.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Yep,
it's tucked away in a corner.
I'd like to see it in a
more accessible place.
Has anybody been around
Lafayette Square,
right in front of the White House?
Okay, one of the four statues
around Lafayette Square--
>> Rochambeau.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Rochambeau.
>> Steuben.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Steuben.
Kosciuszko.
And Lafayette.
And-
>> Remember what Galvez statue was
placed in front of the White House,
and the park service, and the
state department opposed it...
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Well,
nobody asked me [laughter],
but I would vote for
that, absolutely.
I mean, to me, anybody occupying
the White House should be looking
out on those statues
every single day
and recognizing just how
involved right from the beginning,
in our DNA, and RNA, and
probably several other proteins,
our alliances have been, how
important our alliances have been.
So, I don't know if
that was a question,
and I don't think I repeated it.
>> Was information.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Okay
[laughter], so again,
I think I failed the repeating
a couple of questions.
My apologies.
Sir?
>> A general logistics question.
How much communication did
France and Spain have directly?
>> Larrie Ferreiro: So the question
was how much communication did
France and Spain have directly?
A lot. There were couriers
running between the various palaces
on a regular basis, and
I tried to plot some
of the time tables,
just to get an idea.
The distance between
Madrid and France,
on the roads, is about 800 miles.
And it was not uncommon for a
courier to make that in a week.
And then, a message from, and it
is a little bit more complicated,
but from Versailles to,
let's say the palace
at Escoriale [phonetic spelling],
which was one of the
palaces they went to.
They rotated palaces quite a bit.
Could get back and forth
in as little as two weeks.
Now, that may not seem like a
lot of time, but they're trying
to make decisions on the fly.
So for me, the interesting
aspect of diplomacy
at that time was how often
people had to make decisions
with very little or almost no
knowledge, and take guesses
as to what the other side was
going to do, and for, I would say,
a majority of the time, and I
don't want to say a super majority,
they generally guessed at
what was going to happen.
So they were quite closely
allied, and they also had,
even though they had
different goals,
they knew what each
other was thinking.
I found that quite interesting
in the correspondence,
to say I think this is what is going
to happen, then the courier comes,
and sure enough, it does.
So did that answer that question?
>> Yeah it did, and as a follow
up to that, when you're talking
about how in the Gulf of Mexico, you
know, the French were able to come
up to Yorktown for that,
was that decided just there?
Or did that communication have
to go all the way back to...
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Okay, when
the main fleet left France,
in early 1781, the goal of de
Grasse was to protect the Caribbean,
and also Spain and France had
already decided that they were going
to launch a major invasion
of Jamaica.
Jamaica was the primary
British base.
But they, and anybody
who knows the old Navy,
know that very often fleets have
to operate beyond not just line
of sight, but line of communication.
So it was quite common for
Navies to operate independently,
and they knew the broad
strokes of what was asked for.
In the case of de Grasse, he knew
that he was given a short window
of time, two months, in which
he could support operations,
could support Rochambeau,
who was already there.
Rochambeau had arrived
the year before,
in Newport, as a matter of fact.
And had sat idle.
They didn't know what they were
going to do because Washington
and Rochambeau really
couldn't agree on a strategy.
There were no good targets.
They want Washington wanted to
take New York, but the logistics
of trying to surround this
major city, its encampments
without naval superiority,
was daunting; du Porte,
who I mentioned was
one of the people who,
as a trained siege engineer,
could tell Washington
this is what it takes,
this is what you have,
we can't do it.
So everybody understood
the uncertainties,
and when de Grasse knew that
he had a short window of time,
he had already gotten letters
from Rochambeau, that were waiting
for him in Cape François [phonetic
spelling], which is today Haiti
at the time was San Doming, saying
"please come to the Chesapeake."
Now, you'll have to read my book
to see just how nuance this
statement was [laughter],
because it was a lot more
nuance than what I just said,
but he had to send a message
back and the message went on,
and as a naval architect, somebody
who designed ships, I was very happy
to say that the most advanced naval
architecture went into the design
of this particular frigate
[laughter], Concorde,
which was a sister to Hermione,
and that ship made time back faster
than it literally twice as
fast as any other sailing ship
that I was able to
calculate in that era.
It just got the information back
that once the information got back
to Rochambeau, saying "meet
me at the Chesapeake,"
it was a force march, it was fast.
The Washington Rochambeau route,
which goes, I'm trying to think
where it passes through D.C., it
does pass somewhere around here.
>> There's a trail though.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: There's
a [inaudible], which was laid
out by a colleague of mine,
Bob Sellig [phonetic spelling],
and he has wonderful
sites on the web
where you can plot
exactly where they went.
They knew exactly how to get there.
They plotted out the course,
there were four sets of troops
that were going to occupy
each site on consecutive days
so they didn't overwhelm
the foraging.
They built stoves, they
build accommodations,
and the maps that the
Chief Engineer,
Berto Yea [phonetic spelling], I
think was his name, I write the book
so I don't have to remember
[laughter], can today be laid
over a modern map, a Google map,
and with no distortion whatsoever,
you can trace exactly
where the sites were.
In fact, I was down at one site
where, because of the detail
of that map, they located
the foundations
of several buildings [laughter],
so they had fantastic engineers.
But again, let me be very clear,
this is what the French army had
been doing for over 100 years.
Moving troops, supplying, laying
siege, it was their business.
They knew how to fight.
And they fought very well.
So, did that answer your question?
>> Yes, it did.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Okay.
Do I see a hand over?
Ma'am, and then sir.
>> I have one more
question but also a comment.
I think you've done such a great job
with this lecture, I kind of want
to help you sell more books, so in
the future, perhaps you might want
to consider losing the questions
slide, and putting back up the slide
with the title of your
book [laughter].
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Okay, so
I should, I should go back
to [laughter] the title of the
book [overlapping speakers].
>> Just because I kind
of want you to,
just because it should be
successful, will be more...
>> Larrie Ferreiro: I certainly
appreciate the comment,
putting this up, but I
have an ulterior motive
for leaving the questions slide
there, so with your permission,
I'm going to go back to this.
Now, the book is, and
I'll hold it up, in fact,
I'll just leave this here
as the visual [laughter],
here is the visual,
and I hope that stays.
Okay, so that was the
comment, leave the book up.
I appreciate that.
You had a question?
>> That's even better
than my suggestion.
>> Larrie Ferreiro:
Okay, and your question?
>> My question was about,
I liked what you had
to say about the Hermione?
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Hermione,
it is spelled her-my-oh-nee
[phonetic spelling],
but too many people associate
that with Harry Potter [laughter],
and the correct pronunciation is
her-me-own [phonetic spelling],
so that was Lafayette's
ship, by the way.
>> And for those of us who want
to know more about that kind
of information, papers on it,
or do you have any
resources that would be good?
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Absolutely.
After you buy my book you buy
Patrick Villiers' biography
of Hermione, Patrick Villiers, who
wrote it first in French, of course,
and then the book was translated,
and the title escapes me,
but I have it referenced
in my Bibliography,
and it is a fantastic explanation
of, well, not just of Hermione,
but of Lafayette's voyage,
and the significance.
And of all the books I've read,
it is undoubtedly the best one.
Now, if you are really
interested in the ships themselves,
please come see me afterward,
because most of the books
that have been written, they are in
French, they were written by a cadre
of individuals under a recently
deceased architect named Jean
Boudreau, who wrote many, many tomes
on French ships of the age of sail.
And they are just a joy to behold.
They are also very expensive, but
the Library of Congress has a lot
of them, so you know, maybe
with a little bit of, you know,
forbearance, they'd let you see it.
Sir, I think I saw, did
that answer your question?
I think I saw a hand
here, and then you next.
>> Communication being very
vital in the time of war,
have any of your cast of
characters [inaudible]?
>> Larrie Ferreiro:
All of them were.
>> So they could-
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Oh, so
the question was were any
of these people bilingual.
And the answer was at the
time everybody spoke French.
That was it, I mean,
that's kind of the answer.
Many of the Americans spoke French.
Alexander Hamilton spoke French.
John Laurens, his friend,
spoke French.
Washington did not.
All the Spanish officers
spoke French.
So there were few problems
communicating.
Does that answer your question?
I saw a hand over here, sir.
>> This may be a little
attenuated, but Lafayette came back
and toured this country, and I
read that he gave a crocodile
to our President, so I
wondered what had happened
to the crocodile [laughter].
And I consulted a White House
architectural historian in Texas,
and he said they threw it in the
West Wing, I said, "The West Wing?"
He said yeah.
The West Wing was just like a big
barn full of stuff [laughter].
Have you ever heard of that?
>> Larrie Ferreiro: No, sir,
the question was did Lafayette bring
a crocodile during his 1824 tour,
which I will reference
in a little bit,
if I don't get the right question,
and I've not heard of that.
Now, I do have another
animal story [laughter].
So I am unable to answer
your question,
and I have not seen
it written anywhere,
but I can go back and look.
However, the other animal story is
the, as probably most of you know,
George Washington was quite an
entrepreneur, and one of the things
that he wanted to do after
the war was raise mules,
and he specifically wanted a type
of Spanish mule called an Andalusian
Jack, which was very well regarded,
and as a result of one of the
battles that had been fought
with American and Spanish troops,
the Spanish king allowed
these prized animals.
Normally he did not let
these animals leave Spain.
He allowed two Andalusian
Jacks, one of which survived,
was named Royal Gift,
George Washington got it,
and they have a lot of
information at Mt. Vernon
to tell you how he took the Jack,
baited it first with Jennys,
created a whole host of
sires, which are donkeys,
and then created a line of mules.
So these mules all became known
as American Mammoth Mules,
the American Mammoth
Mule was the animal
that populated the American
west, and was the animal
that was brought over, since
we're on the eve of World War I,
in the millions, to pull
canon, artillery, wagons.
That one jack from Spain
[laughter] was the progenitor
of a major line of animals.
So there is an animal
story for you [laughter].
I think I saw a hand here, ma'am.
>> My question also is
regarding communication,
with so much collaboration
between the Spanish and the French,
with engineering of the ships, how
did they keep those communications
from getting thwarted, or
like spies, like the British-
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Oh,
there were spies everywhere.
I actually have a wonderful
paper on the spy missions.
One of my favorite stories, the
short answer is that they didn't.
One of my favorite stories, not
quite related to what you asked,
did I repeat the question?
The question was about how did
all these exchanges between France
and Spain do so absent the
detection of the British,
and the answer was, they didn't.
And there was constant spying
between all the nations.
One of my favorite stories happened
about 30 years earlier, or sorry,
20 years earlier, 1748,
1749, the Spanish,
including one of the
Admirals who later fought,
sent over a spy mission to London,
and several of the shipyards
in England, to understand
how they built ships,
and also when they came back,
the two men were Jorge Juan
and Santacia [phonetic spelling],
and Jose-so [Spanish name spoken],
but I don't remember if it was
Jose [foreign names spoken],
had gone over as spies,
went under an assumed name,
and came back with 80
British shipbuilders.
Now most of these shipbuilders
were, in fact, of Irish descent,
and they were escaping
persecution, because being Catholic
in a Protestant country, you know,
they were quite often not given the
promotions they felt they deserved.
And that is why the flagship of
the Spanish Navy during this war,
[Spanish name spoken] was built
by Matthew Mullen [laughter].
So I have a whole paper which
is called Spies Versus Prize,
about the industrial espionage
that went on between them,
and I'd be happy to talk about it
with you offline, because it is just
so interesting, on so
many different levels.
Sir?
>> Just another logistics one,
that is kind of fun is, you know,
when you read a book
I always think of it,
like you started day
one on page one.
Where did you really
start the book at?
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Oh, I did
not start day one, page one.
The book starts, you've
got to read it,
with Thomas Jefferson writing
a message to Carlos the Third,
and Louis the Sixteenth,
and the book starts
by saying this is what the
American Congress needed,
because we were going to go fight a
war, we couldn't do it by ourselves,
so we needed them to come alongside
us, then of course, by that point,
you know, the curtain comes up, and
this message to Carlos the Third
and Louis the Sixteenth is
revealed to be the Declaration
of Independence, and this is
one of the things you asked,
I believe ma'am, you asked
me what was surprising.
And I decided, again, apart from
nailing my colors to the mast,
I'd start off by completely
exploding everybody's conception
of what the declaration
of independence was.
For the simple reason
that historians who write
about the declaration admit fully
that it was written
as a cry for help.
The bad news is, they tend
to put that on page 342,
footnote 27 [laughter], and
it was vital that it be put
in context, front and center.
What I can tell you is, all the
correspondence that you read
from that time, makes it
quite clear what the intent
of the Declaration
of Independence was.
Now, to solidify, to...even
though I think I've beat that one
over the head many times, let
me tell you the first thing
that Congress did after the
Declaration was approved.
Not fully signed.
All of us know that the Declaration
was not signed on July 4,
it wasn't until August,
but the first thing
after the broadsheet was printed,
Congress put it on a ship.
The name of the ship was Dispatch.
It was a continental
break in Philadelphia.
The July 4 was a Thursday, the
broadsheet was printed on a Friday,
you had Saturday, Sunday,
Monday, was put on the ship.
Dispatch sailed out of
Philadelphia on the 10th
and unfortunately it was
captured, and the reason it was put
on Dispatch was because they
wanted, and Congress said so,
get this into the courts of France
and Spain immediately,
so they can read it.
Because once they read it, they
would know we're now independent,
because we said we
were going to do it,
now you can come and
fight alongside us.
Now, dispatch, the brig,
was captured by the
British off Delaware Capes
about three weeks later, so the
word actually didn't get to Europe
until August but even by then,
I mention that Dean was already
in negotiations about supplying
arms, actually was being taken,
they knew this was going to happen.
And they knew it because
I'd mentioned all the spies
and observers.
France had already sent
spies and observers to figure
out what the Americans were going
to do, and they knew they were going
to declare for independence.
So, this is all, they were, they
were following events quite closely,
even if they had to
do so at a distance.
So did that answer the question?
Okay, I don't know what
our time limit looks like?
>> Pam Jackson: Yeah, we'd like
to allow time for you to meet
with the book seller,
or they have to leave.
>> Larrie Ferreiro: Okay, I have
one question that nobody asked,
which is why I have this
slide up there [laughter].
Nobody asked the obvious question,
and by the way, nobody
has yet done so.
If Lafayette wasn't the
most important figure
in this whole story, how come he
is the one who gets all the press,
and the answer is he
made a grand tour
of America, 1824, and then he died.
And sort of like Elvis, you know,
great career move [laughter].
And I say this because there
is a wonderful portrait
of Lafayette just before
he passed away.
He visits all 24 or 22 states,
takes steamboats to a lot of these.
This I found interesting.
Eats massive dinners every night,
I don't know how he
didn't gain weight.
This was when he was called The
Hero of Two Worlds, not before then.
And even in World War I, Pershing,
1917, his aide to camp said
"Lafayette, we are here."
Okay, so that was the event
that cemented Lafayette
as the centerpiece, and kind of,
you know, put France at least
in the picture, and the reason I say
it was this event, and his death,
that made him the most famous
figure is because I went to Google,
and they have an end gram
function which plots the mentions.
And so I looked at Lafayette,
and the mentions were,
back when he was over
here, very few.
But you see that they peak right
after his grand tour, 1824 to 1825,
then they spike at his death,
and then it sort of drops away.
So, if I'm using mentions
in books as a proxy
for popularity, that is it.
And this is only in
English language books.
It is also true in French
language books [laughter] as well.
So nobody asked the question,
but that is the answer.
With that, I think we can close out.
So I can say to the
video crew [laughter],
and I'll be in front,
and ready to sign books.
>> Pam Jackson: Yes, thank you.
[ Applause ]
>> This has been a presentation
of the Library of Congress.
Visit us at loc.gov