>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. >> Jane Sanchez: Good morning, everyone. Good morning, Library of Congress colleagues and our very special guest. My name is Jane Sanchez and I'm told that I'm the 25th Law Librarian of Congress. It is my honor to welcome you today to the Law Library's annual celebration of Law Day. This year's Law Day program is entitled "Justice through the Perspective of an Eye-Witness Artist". And we're doing this in conjunction with the opening of the Library of Congress' exhibit, "Drawing Justice: The Art of Courtroom Illustrations. Today's program is sponsored by the Law Library of Congress and the Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division. We are honored today to bring together a panel of three artists to talk about their work, Marilyn Church, Pat Lopez, and Bill Robles. To begin, just a few words about Law Day. It was first proposed by the American Bar Association President Charles S. Rhyne in 1957. Mr. Rhyne envisioned Law Day as a way to celebrate America's legal system. In 1958, President Eisenhower issued the first presidential proclamation designating Thursday, May 1, 1958 as Law Day. And I quote, "It was to be a day of national dedication to the principle of government under laws." In 1961, Congress passed Public Law 8720, establishing May 1 as Law Day USA in perpetuity. Since 1961, presidents have issued annual proclamations calling on all Americans to celebrate Law Day and our system of government and laws. Before our panel begins this morning, I have a couple housekeeping announcements. Can you switch off your mobile phones, if you can, to silent mode? And please note that this program is being videotaped and later will be available on the library's website. After today's program, we invite everyone to visit the exhibition, Drawing Justice: The Art of Courtroom Illustration. The exhibit is in this building on the second floor south gallery. Before we get started, a couple thanks are in order. To Mr. Tom Girardi for making this exhibition possible, to Thomson Reuters for their generosity in supporting today's program, to the Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division, our cosponsor, and to the friends of the Law Library of Congress, thanks to all of you for your many contributions making this event possible. And now, I would like to introduce Sara W. Duke, Curator of Popular and Applied Graphic Art in the Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division. Sara came to the library as a wee baby in 1991 as a junior fellow. As a curator, she acquires cartoon art, documentary drawings, and ephemera. Sara will introduce today's panel and she will moderate our panel discussion today. Sara? [ Applause ] >> Sara Duke: Thank you, Jane, and thanks to everyone else who made this day possible. It's very exciting to have 98 courtroom illustrations on the walls of the Library of Congress. I have three artists that I've brought in for this discussion today. We'll start with Marilyn Church. She earned a BFA from Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, New York and attended graduate school in the University of Virginia. She returned to New York intent on a career in fashion illustration, but found herself falling in love with the best dramas in town, the ones that happened in the courtroom. In 2009, the Library of Congress acquired her archive, a generous gift of over 4000 drawings from her family which includes such trials of famous defendants as John Gotti, Martha Stewart and Robert Chambers and the late blind militant leader, Omar Abdel-Rahman. Second, and I'm doing this in alphabetical order, is Pat Lopez. Pat began her career with a lengthy Silkwood v. Kerr-McGee in 1979, almost immediately after graduating from the Southwestern of Oklahoma State University, where she studied art education and commercial art. Known for her distinctive representational style, she has traveled over-- all over the United States to cover such well-known travels-- trials as Terry Nichols and Timothy McVeigh in Oklahoma City before their trials got separated, the Waco Branch Davidian co-trials in San Antonio, Texas, and Citadel v. Faulkner in Charleston, South Carolina. And you can see all of those drawings upstairs after this discussion. The library acquired a small archive of Ms. Lopez' work through a combination gift purchase. Finally, last but not least, Bill Robles is a Los Angeles based courtroom artist who earned his BA from the Art Center College of Design. After working as an advertising illustrator, CBS Evening News hired him to cover the 1971 trial of Charles Manson and his family. What a way to begin a career [laughter]. Walter Cronkite led off the Evening News with his drawing the day Manson attempted to stab the judge with a pencil. And you can see both Mr. Robles' drawing as well as Cronkite's Evening News broadcast upstairs in the exhibition. He has worked in courtrooms ever since, covering the Los Angeles trials of O.J. Simpson, Michael Jackson, and litigator, Thomas Girardi, but traveling further afield is needed. The library acquired a selection of Robles' work as part of the Thomas v. Girardi collection of courtroom illustration drawings. And with that, ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to invite you to come up to the stage so we can begin our discussion. How many of you have been in a courtroom and seen an illustrator at work? >> Bill Robles: Oh, really. >> Sara Duke: OK, so a few of you. I guess since the majority of the people in this room haven't seen you at work, why don't you give the audience a sense of about how you get hired and what it takes to get yourself into the courtroom to draw a trial. >> Marilyn Church: Shall I start? >> Bill Robles: Ladies first. >> Pat Lopez: Please, please go first. >> Marilyn Church: Ladies first [laughs]. It's so difficult from getting in the door sometimes a long waiting line for a high-profile trial, and you're lugging heavy supplies. And when you do get in, you're often fighting for a seat with the reporters who also want a front-row seat, they want to hear. You want to see another artist. Everybody wants the best viewpoint. And we draw with our supplies on our laps, a pad and it's crowded with other artists, and you're balancing every thing, sometimes water, sometimes trying not to make noise, trying to pull out your binoculars to see when you're in a very dark space and the defendant may be backlit. It's all kinds of obstructions from morning till you finish. And sometimes, you have a very short time to finish, like sometimes less than an hour or 20 minutes in an arraignment. So, I could go on and on about how difficult it is, but I'll leave some for you. >> Pat Lopez: OK. Well, as Marilyn said, the same experience with me. We're always looking for the best seat in the courtroom but so is everyone else, especially the attorneys. And sometimes I have to bargain with them to get the best seat, which means, oh, I'll put a little more hair on your head until you give me that seat [laughter]. But not only that, it was because we were in the best seat, we were the first to see forensic evidence, the first to see all the drama that would happen. In fact, we had to have-- we had to sort of-- I did, anyway, had to build my intuitive sense or radar of the courtroom. If something were going to happen, you could almost feel it before it happened. In other words, if I were here drawing what the goings-on in the well of the court and a family member, as happened in the Oklahoma City bombing case that I did, a family member stood up and started screaming or crying or whatever, that would be the story. Then I had to grab a new sheet of paper and instantly start drawing it. So, not only fighting for our seat, but keeping it by getting the story when it happened. Bill? >> Bill Robles: Again, seating is everything. >> Pat Lopez: Yeah. >> Bill Robles: Getting there-- It depends, there are so many high-profile trials in Los Angeles that you have to get there early. And it's a call-in thing. The TV station just phoned and they get the name on a list. And artists kind of have a priority, but it's no guarantee that you're going to get in. >> Marilyn Church: Right. >> Bill Robles: Sometimes the-- If there are two artists, there's a flip of a coin and whoever gets it goes in. But in most high-profile trials, they only allow one artist. So, the other artist and myself usually flip a coin and whoever wins goes in the first day and then we alternate days, so that kind of works out. But I remember during the Menendez-- Remember the Menendez Brothers trial? The judge did not like the media and he did not allow cameras, but he let the artists in, but he put the artists in the corner of the courtroom. So it was really very difficult. That's where your drawing skills have to play in. And like you said, arraignment sometimes 10 minutes, they're in and they're out, and boy, you've got to capture it like that. >> Marilyn Church: And you see mostly the back of their heads. >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Marilyn Church: You pray that they'll turn sideways and say something to-- >> Bill Robles: We love the side views and we love beards and mustaches, big hair. >> Marilyn Church: Yes. >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Bill Robles: It makes it a lot easier, doesn't it? >> Marilyn Church: Right. >> Pat Lopez: It does. Right. I think the shortest amount of time, I don't know, when you said short, I mean short. I remember during the Jasper dragging death, this was a trial in Jasper, Texas, a very small town, and the courtroom was probably a century old, beautiful. I had to stop myself from engaging in so much time drawing all the beautiful carved woodwork and the old fans. They even had brass batons at the bottom of the-- but I had to sit next to it because it was the best seat. Anyway, during that trial, Dan-- At that time, I was working for CBS, I was a contractor for whoever called first, so freelancer. They had told me that Dan was on the front lawn with his entire crew, they were doing a live shot, it was at the end of the trial. And yet, I had work to do. The trial wasn't over but everybody left to go see the-- you know, all the goings-on on the lawn. I was one of the few people left in the courtroom and I knew that I was waiting for the most important piece of the trial, the chain that these people had had hooked on to the victim's feet, James Byrd and they drug him to his death. Well, this chain hadn't showed up yet in the courtroom as evidence. I waited and waited. And finally, they brought it out when the courtroom was near empty. But they forgot, I was still there, so I-- they brought the chain out. He held it up and held it for maybe two minutes. I got it. The drawing is downstairs. >> Marilyn Church: Good. >> Sara Duke: So, you've all had long careers as artists. How did your technique evolve over time? Did you change the materials you used? Did you start out looking like somebody else and developed your own distinctive style? Or did you always have your distinctive style? >> Bill Robles: There was really nobody else. I mean, it was kind of started way back just part of the Manson trial. This is almost-- Well, it's 46 years ago. This August will be 47 years. But, I had never set foot in a courtroom in my life. I was a fairly successful illustrator for 10 years and then the murders came up and one of my classmates from Arts Center became the art director at the CBS station in Los Angeles. So, I always had an interest in news as a kid, newsreels. So I approached them as to who to see at CBS, show them my work. And they liked me and they hired me as their freelance artist. And I've been freelance for all those thankful times, but-- so that's all that came about. Right place, right time with the right qualifications, so-- And, you know, that started the whole career, you know? >> Marilyn Church: And I was a fashion illustrator when an attorney friend of mine told me about this trial going on in the Queens courtroom. And right away, it just sounded such an exciting thing to do. And one of the things about doing fashion illustration is you have to draw very fast and you're drawing a lot of-- the whole figure, so you have that background which was good to go into the courtroom with. And I think, you know, my courtroom career spanned almost 50 years or 45. So, naturally, you grow as an artist, you know? I-- There's some very early drawings of me downstairs. There's many techniques down there. There's watercolor, there's black and white pen. And gradually, over the years, also the difficulty of drawing in court makes you perfect what you bring to court, what's going to be quiet, fast, efficient, not going to smear, you have to be ready at a moment's notice to wipe out part of your drawing and start over or just pack up and get out. They change courtrooms mid-trial. Suddenly, you have to go somewhere else, or just flying out to get your work videotaped outside. You have to be mobile. So, all of that affects the technique that you end up using. And I think also, the artist that you sit with, you know, most of the art that I did over the years, we were on high-profile trials, there could be seven artists there. There wasn't one or two artists. >> Bill Robles: Oh, I know that. >> Marilyn Church: There were many. And so, there was a lot of sharing, I think, of ideas, looking at other artists work, seeing what they use, if it was easier and adopting from each other. >> Pat Lopez: Mm-hmm. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: As a matter of fact, I agree with you, always looking at other artists work. When I had great artist in the court with me like, Bill and one time with Marilyn, I was-- I could feel it. It helped my work to be better because they were there. The level was so high. But I began because I watched artists on television. The one artist that really impressed me was Howard Brodie. And he was a sketch artist who used mostly black and white ink, but he was-- or I think pencil. Anyway, I saw his work and was just so impressed with it. And I knew that I could do it, somehow I knew I could do that. I just graduated from college, I went-- I was at my mother's house when I saw Howard Brodie's work on television. So I took a chance and picked up the phone and called the local CBS station and I said, "Do you need an artist?" And it just so happened that the man who picked up the other phone was in Oklahoma City at the time for some other reason. It was Ed-- Let's see, Ed-- not Ed Turner. Ted-- Ed Turner, yes Ed-- Ted was the other guy, Ed Turner and he was at CNN at the time and he said, "Can you draw people?" And I said, "Yeah." Well he used an expletive that I won't repeat here, but I said, "Yes, sir, I can." "Get down here right now." So I did. He had me demonstrate by drawing the anchor who was giving the noon news live in the studio. I was scared to death. So I did the drawing and he said, "You walked in off the street?" So, I was hired. My first drawing, I had to do the following Monday in the Denver circuit court because Oklahoma was impeaching its governor. That's how I began. It was with Howard Brodie guiding me in. His son is back there, he looks just like him. I just want to cry. But the way-- The reason I'm here is because his father looked at my artwork, I asked him to look at it and tell me, am I doing anything wrong? Is this-- And he looked at it long and hard and said, "Kid, you've got talent. You can do this but you have to work at it every day. And then you could be one of the best." So, here I am. Thank you, Howard [ Applause ] >> Sara Duke: So, all of you have an art background. Bill mentioned a love of journalism, newsreels. But you're journalists as well as artist. And Pat mentioned the need to train her eye. So how did you train yourselves to pay attention to the news, to pay attention to elements of the courtroom, because you decide for television viewers what's important in any event? >> Bill Robles: The main thing you've got to get the person that's involved in the trial, whether it's an arraignment or a trial going on, but number one, you've got to get in. I try to compose the situation, so it's-- graphically tells a tale without a lot of superficial stuff. So, mine is more of a vignette style. But, you know, the media wants it fast, fast, fast. I remember years ago, I was doing something and the reporter literally took an unfinished drawing out of my hand and says, "Well, listen, we need it on the air." You know, it's so exaggerated because it wasn't that critical. But he took the drawing without being finished, so. >> Marilyn Church: I feel that happens almost with every drawing, it goes on before I consider it finished. >> Bill Robles: Especially today, right? >> Marilyn Church: Yeah, out of your hands. Yeah, but-- Wait a minute, what was your-- oh, your question was-- >> Sara Duke: How did you train yourself to-- >> Marilyn Church: The-- It's really important that you know the story, and what's important in the courtroom. You know, the most-- the witness they're waiting for. And so, you do try to arm yourself with that information and talk to the reporter. Hopefully, the reporter is sitting next to you and can kind of signal, "You know, the next one that's coming is the one I want," but many times, you're isolated. And you have to know. So you really have to be following the same time what's going on in the story, and planning, you know, leaving room in your drawing or being able to adapt it and completely change it or start all over very quickly when that news breaking-- I mean, the thing that's going to be the top of the story. And I think you also want your drawing to make sense, because it's on the television a very short time, so viewers should be able to look at it quickly and able to absorb the story of what's going on. So that's a challenge too, I think, to make it clear. >> Pat Lopez: I think she's correct and I will add, it's not-- the average time I was told by a producer in very sharp tones one day, the average time that it-- because I wanted to complete a drawing and she wanted to have it right then, that she said, "They just see it for 13 to 20 seconds," I'm sorry, but that's how she said it. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: And I thought, well, it doesn't matter. It tells a story and it has to have all of the story in the picture, I can't just put part of it. So I totally agree. It was oftentimes a trial to try and get everything in that you needed to get in, in the time that you had. And I wanted to say something else too. In terms of having limited time and knowing the story, you have to know every part of that story, every defendant, every witness, every victim, even the families in the audience. >> Marilyn Church: Right, yeah. >> Pat Lopez: So that you knew who was standing up and shouting, or whatever it is you needed to do. There were-- I even made a habit, and this is going to sound strange, but it helped me. Sometimes, I would go to the crime scene and that helped to introduce a different level of emotion for me, the Jasper dragging death was a good example. I actually went to the actual scene, so I could know-- >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: -- what that was and what the family endured when they heard the story. >> Sara Duke: So, Pat and Bill, especially, but Marilyn too, your trial drawings cover this breadth of the United States. So, how do you get hired and how fast do you have to react and how do you get from place to place to cover? >> Bill Robles: What do you mean from place to place? >> Sara Duke: Like if you're not in your home city. >> Bill Robles: Right. >> Sara Duke: Who pays for you to travel and how do you get there and how fast do you have to react? Like, when do you find out that you're traveling to another city to cover a trial? >> Bill Robles: You know what, when the Unabomber was arrested in Helena, Montana, you remember him? CBS called me, "You got to get down to the airport. You're going to go to Helena, Montana." So I gathered the stuff as quickly as I could, got in the car, got-- went to the airport, missed the flight. And a radio reporter from Los Angeles also missed the flight. So, we flew to Spokane, he rented a car, and we drove all night through the Rockies, snow, and he would-- the reporter would stop every hour to make a phone call to call in his story all the way over there. We got there at 7:00 in morning, got to the hotel, showered and shaved, and got to court in time to see him. But that was the only time that happened. Usually, I have advanced time, but that was-- and with LA traffic, you know, it's [laughter]-- >> Marilyn Church: We know. Usually, you get a day's notice, if you have to travel, but not always. There-- I have those stories too, where it was all the last minute. I remember the-- when they caught Bernard Goetz, who was the one who shot the kids in the subway that were trying to rob him. >> Bill Robles: Oh, yeah. >> Marilyn Church: And it was going to be up in Maine and there was no time to get a regular flight and we went by helicopter with reporters. So, that was anything to get there and get the drawing. And again, an arraignment, went all the way to Maine and it was like over in 15 minutes. But you have to have a variety of drawings and sometimes not just one. And also after-- I wanted to say after I was at the-- when I was first starting out, almost my first trial was the John Mitchell, the attorney general who was part of the Nixon administration on trial in New York. And I really was new at it and the other artists were much more expensive-- much more experienced [laughter], and probably getting a lot more money than me too. So after I've been there just a bout a month, the New York Times called me and asked me to come in with my portfolio. And I saw other artists there too that had left samples. Somehow, they gave that assignment to me. It's really hard to know why, but I felt so fortunate about it, but that's how that happened. >> Pat Lopez: In my experience, as I was-- mostly my niece was the heartland, the middle of the nation, although I did come to New York once or twice and I did work with Bill once or twice or-- well, not in California, but in Texas. >> Bill Robles: In Texas and Oklahoma City. >> Pat Lopez: Yes, Oklahoma City. In fact, Oklahoma City, because I lived in the heartland, my family was there also and many of the trials somehow affected my personal life. To give you an example, the Oklahoma City bombing happened, I was at home in Austin that morning. I received a phone call, turned on the TV. I turned on the TV. I could see the Murrah building going up in flames. My sister parked her car in the Murrah parking lot and worked a block away. As I was dealing with that, CNN said, "We have a private jet. Get on it now." So I got on it to go to Oklahoma City. We sat in an RV in front of the building. They're still searching for people. I was there within an hour. I didn't know if my sister was alive and had to wait until they had someone to-- they thought they were going to arrest someone immediately, but they didn't. So I just sat there in that RV, waiting. I didn't know until later that evening that my sister had survived, but that was a very, very difficult thing. There were oftentimes that I had to go to trials that would affect someone I knew because it was in Oklahoma or Texas. >> Jane Sanchez: After you make your drawings, I know there are sometimes issues with controlling them. I know you ended up suing for the right to prevent another agency from selling your work. So, how assiduously do you have to guard your copyright and your images once you make them? >> Marilyn Church: Intimately [laughter]. It's true. You know, sometimes when all the cameras are outside lined up to shoot your work, there'll be some small station that doesn't have a big budget coming over, you know, and shooting and sometimes, you don't even know it's happening. And sometimes, they see my work on-- I saw several shows on Oprah Winfrey, I saw it on Saturday Night Live, never got any compensation for that and would put in bills afterwards. So sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. I mean, I don't want to hire a legal defense and try to get my fee, but yeah, that happens. You do-- You have to be vigilant. >> Pat Lopez: Yes, unfortunately. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: I had to be very vigilant. I was in the middle of working a very large case when infringement happened and it was critically important that I stop it. I was under contract with another entity and my work was being used. I could have lost my career. So that's how that-- all of that happened. Not a happy thing, copyright [laughs]. >> Marilyn Church: Right. >> Bill Robles: It's-- I remember one high-profile trial. There were a media frenzy as usual. And it was Lindsay Lohan, her appearance at Airport courthouse. It was like insane and so many, many people. Anyway, coming down the stairs, I had a drawing of her and I was going out to-- I do for multi-stations, if you're lucky, you can get-- if you're the only artist allowed, you can do for everybody. I'm coming down with a drawing upside down heading for the truck for them to shoot and there was a photographer that was running alongside with me with a camera trying to shoot. And you have no control over that. >> Marilyn Church: Right. >> Bill Robles: I saw a drawing I did-- I think it was a major trial, I happened to-- I was flipping to see channels over the evening and came across a Korean station with my drawing on [laughter]. And they had never purchased it. So I tracked them down and they had to pay the fee. So occasionally, you're lucky. During the O.J. trial, I had a jury drawing that appeared in News Week, a double page. A German newspaper ran it. A friend of mine happened to be married to a German girl and she worked for German media magazines in Los Angeles. And she told me about it. So, long story short, I contacted them, they ended up paying $3000. And they were here. And of course they wanted less, but I stuck with my guns and-- Occasionally, you're luckier like that but most of the time, people steal stuff and you have no control over it. And now, they can literally take drawings off the internet, you know, and do what they want with them, make prints and-- you know, so you're really at their mercy. >> Pat Lopez: That's true. Even today, I can see my work elsewhere that I don't know where they received that. >> Bill Robles: Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: So, I do have a copyright attorney I work with. >> Bill Robles: You do? >> Pat Lopez: Yes, I do. >> Marilyn Church: That's good. >> Pat Lopez: In fact, he'll be here tonight at the dinner [laughter]. >> Marilyn Church: OK. >> Pat Lopez: I had to thank him somehow. >> Sara Duke: So, you all have a distinctive style. I feel like I've broken it down, but I ask these three people because they have what I would call the California style, the Midwest style, and the New York style, which was also-- the New York style and the Washington style aren't that far part. >> Marilyn Church: Are not that far apart. >> Sara Duke: Yeah, I think they're both influenced by each other. So how did that evolve, that each region of the country has-- >> Bill Robles: That's true. >> Sara Duke: -- such a distinctive style, or you've never thought about it before? >> Marilyn Church: I really think it had a lot to do with who was sitting in court with you-- >> Pat Lopez: Absolutely. >> Marilyn Church: -- influencing each other, I really do. I think the drawings talk to each other and the artists absorb the culture around them and I think that's a big part of it. >> Pat Lopez: I think she's right. I think I will add that in the Midwest, of course, is way different than the East Coast or even the West Coast in terms of the community, the people who are-- the viewers. And I called my stuff mom and pop drawings because if I was-- if I were to draw-- for instance, I did the Kobe Bryant rape hearings, it had to look like Kobe. It had-- And it couldn't be quick and it could-- I'm not-- these two are very, very gifted in doing quick drawings and they can make great likenesses. I can't do that, you know, I have to do something that's really, really almost like a portrait. And I think that the family or the mom and pop idea came from mostly my family. My mother was my biggest critic. And if it didn't look like someone, she'd tell me. So I tightened up my style because of that and learned how to do that quickly. But that's the only way I can do it fast is to do something that has a tighter image. I can't do this expressive stuff that-- the beautiful stuff that the two of you do so quickly. But I can do it. If I do it tight, I can do it quickly. It took a while to do that, but with my mother behind me, I did it [laughter]. >> Bill Robles: It's very difficult to get quality when you're limited by time, you know, when things are done [inaudible]. Sometimes, you hate to let a drawing go because it's not perfect, you know? But, you know, capturing the likeness is key I think. And everybody is going to know if the person does not look like the person depicted on TV. The whole-- The public is going to know it. So that's one of the big pressures, I think, in trying to capture the likeness. You know, it's very important, and very difficult, very difficult. Added pressure of course, speaking of that, it's a very difficult just to do and we're all seasoned so we know how to deal with all the shortcuts and tricks and so on, and experienced and skilled. But I've had artists that I knew tried courtroom drawing for another station and they couldn't handle it. One of them went out and threw up because of the pressure. So it's really a very difficult grind and you have to be dependable, you know, television relies on your deadline. And, boy, that's a lot of pressure. But, you know, you deal with it. I think you have to have the mentality for it. >> Marilyn Church: You know, I don't know how it is in California and the Midwest in terms of how many men, women in New York, it's practically all women all the time. There was Joe Papin, years ago and there were a few men early on but they really-- it's women under this-- it always fascinated me why women ended up being able to stand that pressure better than men. I mean, it's not that they're better artists or better under pressure is all I can think and-- >> Bill Robles: Probably, yeah. >> Pat Lopez: I believe-- >> Marilyn Church: Is that true on the coast and in the Midwest? >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Marilyn Church: More women than men doing this? >> Pat Lopez: Yes, well, I was pretty much, I mean, there were men-- couple of the men, Gary Myrick, and-- but for-- but I was the only woman that I know of, there was a few others who do it on a local level, but not on a national level. I was the only one who did it on the national level. And I will add to that that I agree with you. I think women on-- in general, because we raise families and we do 15,000 other things while you're changing that baby's diaper, right-- >> Marilyn Church: That's true. >> Pat Lopez: -- we learn to hold so much in terms of multitasking. I think that's an issue-- that's probably why-- In fact, I now am a therapist to counsel in art therapy with the Jemez tribe in New Mexico. And I've learned a great deal about women of all cultures. And that's true, multitasking is women do that so very well. Maybe that's why. >> Marilyn Church: Maybe. I'm sure it's a factor. >> Bill Robles: Matter of fact, my other competitor, I guess, other artists in Los Angeles, there's basically two of us and we handle the whole thing, is a woman, so-- and I've known her for years but, you know, it's a tough gig. >> Marilyn Church: It is. >> Bill Robles: It is, yeah. >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Bill Robles: And people think it's very glamorous and there is a lot of glamour to it. I mean, you see celebrities, you see important people, and you're drawn to the-- something you read about all of a sudden, there you are-- there-- >> Marilyn Church: Right. >> Bill Robles: Like these gentlemen sitting here, they're that close to you. It's fascinating. And that's one of the great things I love about it. And you can express your drawing the way you want to do it. Nobody is telling you how to do it. You do it. They hire you because you do it a certain way and that's what they like. So, that's the plus side of it. >> Pat Lopez: But I have-- I had to struggle to get to that place where no one would tell me how to do it, Bill. I mean, and I don't know why, maybe it's because I was a woman. I could tell you in the Midwest when I first started out, I had producer after producer and news director after news director saying, "Well, you need to put him over here and I need so and so in there." But that didn't happen that way. Yeah. I don't know why. It took probably the first 10 years of my work before I was honored enough, respect-- my work was respected enough for no one to art-direct me. And I don't know if it was the middle of the nation, the culture, the community, I don't know what that was. But it took a good 10 years until I could do whatever I needed to do. And they would shoot it no matter what it was. Was that your experience? >> Marilyn Church: Well, I would say it mostly is. But I'm mostly was able to accommodate reporters with what they wanted. But I-- No, there was not a lot of direction from producers or reporters, some. That's one of the wonderful things about this work is that you are able to have a lot of self-expression. >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Marilyn Church: You have a lot of control over how that drawing looks. And it's doing art in a place that's live. It's happening in front of you with all that drama. It's a very special privilege to do this work. Difficult though, it is. Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: There's one other thing. And I don't know-- I know that you've had this experience before, you too, Bill. The audience around you, there are times you're there, right, to do a job and you're doing your best, but we do make noise, we do work quickly, we have our board, we have our paper, other things around us. And somebody right behind me might be very interested in my work. So he is leaning over, breathing down my neck and the person next to me is very interested in looking. Then they start talking to you. >> Marilyn Chruch: Yeah. Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: Oh, how did you get out of that? I mean-- >> Marilyn Church: Oh, that's a very difficult thing to deal with. Also, some of the-- sometimes the family is sitting there in the court and objects to the way you're drawing the. >> Pat Lopez: Yes, oh. >> Marilyn Church: It happened to me at the Gotti trial where his fellow gang members are sitting right in the-- here is the artist row and there is the-- and they coming over to check the hairline and the facial expression and saying, "Hey, John's got more hair than that." >> Bill Robles: Oh [laughter]. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. Yeah. I get that a lot. And I heard it from Bess Myerson and some of the women defendants too would come and not appreciate the way you were drawing them. So, sometimes it can be intimidating. >> Pat Lopez: Yeah. >> Marilyn Church: Even at the John Gotti trial actually, he was in the well of the court so he couldn't tell me directly about how he was drawing, but I saw him as I was drawing in court and looking at him through by binoculars, I see him making a motion, pointing to his neck, and he is waving like this at me and I thought he couldn't be talking to me. But I look behind me and the CBS reporters got their head buried down and she's not noticing. And he is saying, he's motioning yes, you. And then he points to his neck and makes a motion like better not go there because I was drawing his neck fat [laughter] and so, I was speedy. And I knew that John Gotti was very conscious of how he was being covered in the press. And he was reading all the news report and he know which artist was covering from where. So, that happens too. >> Bill Robles: Was he in custody? >> Marilyn Church: He was in custody. He couldn't come after me. But all his gang members could have. >> Pat Lopez: Well, I did have a similar situation that wasn't-- it was in Dallas. I can't remember the trial, it's been so long, that was about skinheads, you know, the skinhead community. And they had several young men there on trial. And I drew them and I also drew some of their family sitting behind them. One of them had a wife and a couple kids. And I remember going to lunch that day, and it's weird that I really got a lunch. I had to work through lunch often. >> Marilyn Church: Yes. >> Pat Lopez: Put my work down and went to lunch, I had 15 minutes, I thought, well, I'll grab a bite. As I got into the elevator to go downstairs, there were three skinhead members in the elevator and you could tell-- oh, even now it chokes me up, you can tell they were very unhappy with me. And they stood behind me and made threats, basically said, I wouldn't make it to my car that night if I did-- if I put that drawing on the air. As soon as the elevator opened, I stepped back, they got off. I punch the button, went back upstairs, and I talked to the court officer, we always have a police officer in the court, and he took me back to the judge's chambers immediately. I told the judge what happened. These people weren't allowed to come back to the courtroom, they were arrested. And for the rest of the trial, I was escorted out to my car. So, it can be very scary at times. >> Bill Robles: Dangerous country over there. >> Pat Lopez: Well, it's Texas. They're serious in Texas [laughter]. >> Sara Duke: So, objectivity is like an issue. How do you remain objective? How do you try to maintain that in your art? >> Marilyn Church: That is a challenge. That's a challenge because you get emotionally affected by the testimony. There were a lot of times like the terrorism trial, the World Trade Center bombing trial, the first one. That was very hard. That courtroom was filled with supporters of, well, people sympathetic to some of their defendants. And it was so distressing, listening to that testimony and looking at these defendants and trying to draw them. And I'm sure some of the emotions, some of the terror I felt about it got in. And as a matter of fact, the artists were sitting in the jury in that trial, which is-- sometimes we get lucky. And we can actually see the faces we're drawing. But I know my drawing was in the New York Times, on the front page and other artists, all our drawings were being shown. And at one point, the attorney for one of the defendants came over to the artists and the jury and said, "My client objects the way you were drawing him. You're making him look like a terrorist." And-- >> Bill Robles: Sorry about that [laughter]. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah that was answered but, you know, I-- it was-- again, it's frightening. And you do try to think, I remember also the Central Park jogger trial, those four black teens that were accused and later found to be innocent. It was really difficult because their words, all their confessions played for us on the TV and they were very surly in court. They were not schooled in how to look in a courtroom. And that's what I drew. And I know the mothers would come up to me in the hall and plead with me, don't draw my son like that, you know, he's really innocent. And years later, when they were acquitted, I felt very bad about the way those drawings did look. Yeah. But I really do try. I think we all try to be objective about it. Someone's life is on the line and you want to be fair. >> Bill Robles: Do you ever have a defendant that kind of tries to conceal himself? >> Marilyn Church: Yes. >> Bill Robles: Covering the-- >> Pat Lopez: Yeah. >> Marilyn Church: Martha Stewart was very good at that. She kept pushing her hair down. The blond hair was-- >> Bill Robles: Sooner or later, you get them though. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. That's the name of the game. You always get them no matter what. >> Pat Lopez: Well, that's why I didn't eat lunch a lot of times. >> Marilyn Church: Yes. >> Pat Lopez: Because I knew at some point they'd have to get up to go to lunch. And I just sat there until they moved and then I could see them. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah, if they stayed in the courtroom. >> Pat Lopez: If they stayed in the courtroom, yeah. There's-- Well, there's things you can do, as you well know, to find out where they are and, you know, if they're not in the courtroom. I call the security officers that are in every federal court, I call them my donut buddies for good reason [laughter]. They would always let me know, yeah, what would be happening with the defendant. And if I needed to see his face in the hall for-- I just needed a split second, something-- >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: -- anything. >> Marilyn Church: Yes. Yeah. >> Sara Duke: Are there any questions from the audience? [ Inaudible ] >> -- others was in a courtroom in the US-- oh, thank you. Did you hear? >> Sara Duke: Yeah. So the question is, do any of us know the first time somebody was in the courtroom in the US? Now are you talking about for television or for newspapers or? [ Inaudible ] >> Marilyn Church: Do we know the first time what? >> Sara Duke: Somebody worked in the courtroom in the US. >> Marilyn Church: Oh, oh, oh, oh [inaudible]. Yeah, yeah. What I can remember-- Oh, I can't-- William Sharp. It's probably not the first but I can remember being a very young child seeing his courtroom drawings in like magazines and-- >> Bill Robles: Whose? >> Marilyn Church: William Sharp, such a good artist. >> Bill Robles: Doesn't ring a bell. >> Marilyn Church: I wish his work was here. >> Bill Robles: Courtroom art? >> Marilyn Church: Courtroom art, William Sharp. But it probably goes back to-- well, the way I always heard it was-- there were artist drawing before the Lindbergh trial. And during the Lindbergh trial, they got evicted because-- >> Bill Robles: Yeah. >> Marilyn Church: -- they were making such a commotion. So who were those artists? I should know. I would like to know that. >> Pat Lopez: I would too. >> Bill Robles: Well, there were artists during the Nuremberg trial-- >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Bill Robles: -- in Germany after World War II, they were fantastic illustrators. And old Sickles was one of them. [ Inaudible ] I didn't hear that. I'm sorry. >> Sara Duke: He said that Daumier was the first courtroom artist. >> Bill Robles: Oh, that was in France. Yeah. >> Sara Duke: Yeah. >> Marilyn Church: But he wasn't covering as a journalist. >> Bill Robles: No, right. >> Marilyn Church: I mean he was doing his drawings because he liked to be there. >> Bill Robles: He didn't have a deadline. >> Sara Duke: I mean-- [laughter]. >> Marilyn Church: I like to be there as an artist. >> Sara Duke: We happened to have some sketches from the Haymarket trial from the 1880s by-- >> Bill Robles: Oh, yeah? >> Sara Duke: -- a man named Art Young who later went on to become-- who's a moderate Midwestern conservative when he drew them and he drew them guilty and when he later became a socialist, he felt baldly about how he had drawn them. But we-- At the Library of Congress, we don't have a great selection of kind of pre-television era drawings so we didn't include them in the exhibition. >> Marilyn Church: But also, artists like Winslow Homer did draw-- >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Marilyn Church: -- for newspapers. >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Marilyn Church: And I'm sure if there was a courtroom trial, they-- maybe not Winslow Homer, but probably artists-- >> Pat Lopez: They had someone. >> Marilyn Church: -- at the time went into court. >> Sara Duke: Sure. Right, right, to draw, yeah. >> Bill Robles: Well, they had artists in the Civil War that were doing-- >> Marilyn Church: That's right. >> Bill Robles: -- sketches for newspapers. >> Sara Duke: Right. >> Marilyn Church: That's true. >> Sara Duke: Right. >> Marilyn Church: But that's not courtroom art-- >> Bill Robles: No, right. >> Marilyn Church: -- particularly but-- >> Sara Duke: Well, in many ways, you are the people who inherited that tradition of-- >> Marilyn Church: Yes. >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Sara Duke: -- reportage. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Bill Robles: So it's been going on but-- >> Marilyn Church: And we always wished it was the-- in more than just the courtroom. You know, as it used to be, I mean artist were-- >> Sara Duke: Right. >> Marilyn Church: But this is the last bastion, right? >> Sara Duke: I think we have one more question up here. >> Well, I find the discussion fascinating and your work is just remarkable. I was interested in one of the questions that were posed to you by the moderator, the one about objectivity. First of all, what's the-- is there a duty of objectivity for your work? You said that you have the freedom as an artist. So where does this requirement to be objective comes from? And secondly, you noted that sometimes you were drawing characters in the courtroom and afterwards you were sorry for way you drew them. Was there any experience that you had in which you disagreed with a judgment made by a judge that you covered the courtroom? >> Marilyn Church: You mean the-- what the jury-- the verdict? >> Yes. >> Marilyn Church: Oh, yeah lots of times [laughter]. Well, actually, not so many times. Certainly the O.J., but I can't remember. I don't know. Do you want to-- >> Bill Robles: Nor can I. >> Marilyn Church: I mean, I think it's a very difficult thing to come up with a verdict sometimes. I've struggled myself, what would I do, you know, in this case. Well, how would I vote? It's really hard. And we also hear a lot more that the jury does. >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Marilyn Church: We see stuff that can't go into trial. >> Bill Robles: Oh, absolutely. >> Marilyn Church: And we know background, we know other charges that the jury doesn't know. So, I can't think of a better system that's everybody says, right, than what we have but-- [ Inaudible ] >> Bill Robles: I didn't quite hear it. >> Sara Duke: Do you have an ethical requirement to be objective? Is there a requirement to be objective in your work? >> Pat Lopez: May I? >> Marilyn Church: Sure. >> Pat Lopez: I don't understand how you can ask an artist, any artist to be objective. This is art even though we do our best to be fair, right? I don't know any other-- but I think objective is the wrong term because I'm not sure that I could be objective drawing anyone of you right now. You know what I'm saying? This is what I feel. What I see is what I see. You may see something different. She would do a completely different drawing than I would if we were drawing the same person. I don't know. Does that make any sense? >> Marilyn Church: Absolutely. But I always have it in mind too that you are a reporter too. >> Pat Lopez: Yes. Yes, that too. >> Marilyn Church: And not to be inaccurate about-- >> Pat Lopez: Right. >> Marilyn Church: -- what's going on. Not to make somebody angrier than what was happening-- >> Pat Lopez: That's true. >> Marilyn Church: -- or-- >> Pat Lopez: That's true. >> Marilyn Church: -- more hysterical than what was happening. Although news reporters tend to want to push that angle-- >> Pat Lopez: Yes. >> Marilyn Church: -- so you are. >> Pat Lopez: But I think that's different. Being-- >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: -- accurate is different than being objective, right? >> Marilyn Church: No, I agree with you. You have to let the emotions feel you. >> Pat Lopez: Absolutely. >> Marilyn Church: I think that makes a good courtroom drawing, actually, that you are present and listening and feeling what's going on and that's-- those feelings do get in the drawing. Yeah? I think so. >> Bill Robles: Microphone. [ Inaudible ] >> Actually. This actually was kind of on the same subject. It was really [inaudible] already. But how do you especially in a very viscerally disturbing trial that goes on for weeks. How do you manage absorbing that emotion day after day and trying to still do the rest of your life and walk back in and do it again? I realize you're all professionals, but how do you mediate that? >> Pat Lopez: That maybe why I became a therapist [laughter]. >> Marilyn Church: It's true. I've had nightmares about some other trials listening too. Sometimes it parallels things in your own life. You know, your son may be the same age is the defendant and, you know, it can really-- you do have to distance yourself. >> Bill Robles: Absolutely. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. Its-- >> Bill Robles: We hear a lot of gory stuff I'll tell you. >> Marilyn Church: Yup. >> Bill Robles: Terrible stuff but you have to put it behind you-- >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Bill Robles: -- and not let it affect you. >> Pat Lopez: It-- However, I know you can't really put some things behind you. It does affect you-- >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Pat Lopez: -- when you're sitting in that courtroom. In my case in the Oklahoma City bombing case there were friends of my family who had died in the bombing and their family was behind me and that was difficult. But I had to maintain a very-- I had put up my walls and maintain a very focused stance and do my work. >> Marilyn Church: Yup. >> Pat Lopez: Then it wasn't until after that case that I did seek my own therapy for a little while to release, because you have to. You can't hold on to this. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Sara Duke: We have one more question. >> You're all classically trained artists. So you're sketching with ink, you're sketching with pencil, you're sketching with whatever. How has technology changed the way that courtroom artists has done? I realize that everybody that has an iPad can take a photo and there may be issues there. But in general, how is technology changing things one way or the other? >> Bill Robles: Are you talking about how it affects us? >> Courtroom artists. >> Bill Robles: Oh, we still do what we do but I've noticed-- I mean, since I started, everybody and their brothers had a laptop, you know. Every-- I was at the Robert Durst, the New York millionaire that's accused of killing his wife in Los Angeles. They have a pretrial thing going on. And everybody in the audience, all the media, they all had laptops and all the lawyers had laptops and they walk around the court with laptops. And here we're still doing-- >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. >> Bill Robles: -- what we do. >> Marilyn Church: Yeah. And which is wonderful. >> Bill Robles: Yeah. >> Marilyn Church: Cameras for the most part are not allowed at least on the federal level into courtrooms which is the only reason we have a job, so. >> Bill Robles: Well, a lot of lawyers don't want the camera in high-profile trials. >> Marilyn Church: Right. But there's some that do. >> Bill Robles: Some do. OK. >> Marilyn Church: But so far, the judges have ruled against it. >> Pat Lopez: I think it's-- This is a true art form. It's none-- like nothing that I learned in college but this is a true art form, to be able to do this in a limited amount of time and try to remain as true and accurate as you can to the scene or the story. So I don't want to see it die, but I know that the media is changing because of the technology. They don't cover trials like they used to. And I wish they'd go back to it. Anybody listening? >> Marilyn Church: One way it's changed though is artists take their own photographs after the trail, which didn't use to be. >> Bill Robles: Really, yeah. >> Pat Lopez: Yeah. >> Marilyn Church: They used to have a crew out there. >> Bill Robles: I forgot about that. >> Pat Lopez: Yeah. >> Marilyn Church: And it's added another layer to our work. You know, its not only that you have to do all the art, you also got to take the photograph and get it back to the station or the newspaper on time. >> Bill Robles: I did that last Tuesday with the Durst. I had-- They didn't have a camera crew or reporter there so I had to shoot the drawing-- >> Marilyn Church: So you were it. >> Bill Robles: -- and ship it back. You know, it's more work. >> Marilyn Church: And sometimes they even ask you what happened. They do. They do sometimes. If there was no reporter there, and so-- >> Sara Duke: Oh, I think we've run out of time. So I want to-- >> Bill Robles: One more question I think. >> Sara Duke: No, I think we've run out of time. >> Bill Robles: Oh, OK [laughter]. >> Sara Duke: Cut it off from the back of the room. I want you to all join me in thanking Bill and Marilyn and Pat. [ Applause ] >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.