>> From the Library of Congress in Washington D.C. >> Stephen Winick: Hello. My name is Stephen Winick, and I'm here at the Library of Congress with the band BeauSoleil, or the BeauSoleil Quartet, as they're called today. And I'm interviewing them for the American Folklife Center here at the Library of Congress. So, I'm going to sort of address some general questions to all of you. In particular, a question about what the Cajun music scene was like when you were growing up. So to sort of set the scene for how Cajun music has changed over the last 30 years or 40 years. >> Michael Doucet: Keep going. >> Stephen Winick: Fifty years. >> Michael Doucet: Well, I don't think it was ever a scene. You know, the music was created for the community, just for the people in Southwest Louisiana, as a way of communicating news, and I mean, it's very, Louisiana, it's a beautiful state, but it's very hard, and you work hard. But you play hard too. So the music was very much a part of that. My father had five sisters, and you know, two of them sang ballads. And then we would have these parties, you know, family get togethers where there was a meal or whatever where everybody would show up and everybody would play something. It didn't matter what, whether it was a violin or a trumpet or piano, whatever. And I think everybody just really liked the fact that it was still sung in French. The old people liked it because it was called old people's music. We never called this Cajun music growing up. And, it was French music, or la musique Francaise [phonetic]. And it was just something, you know, me personally, just kind of took for granted. It was like, you know, somebody said when did you learn your first Cajun song? I said, when did you learn your first Christmas song, you know. It was kind of the same thing. But everybody did it, and I'm talking about the 50s now, 1950s. And there was 22 civil parishes in Southwest Louisiana, it's like a triangle, that speak French. And all those different parishes had different songs and different people. A lot had been forgotten because the original recordings, you know, with the RCA victor coming in, they wanted to sell Victrolas, so they were recorded for commercial use. That was from like '28 to '36. And then World War II happened. A lot of people, you know, realized what they had when they went away. Because we were so, it was different, like no other place, obviously, speaking French. And so I think there was a resurgence, always a resurgence that happened then in the 50s, the 60s, and then of course, it was television. And when we had our first local station in Lafayette. It was KLFY TV. And every Sunday morning they had [inaudible], which was a show that Aldus Roger played on. It was like this big band. I mean we used to hear like an accordion and fiddle player or somebody. There was like twin fiddlers, steel guitar, electric guitar, drums, you know, bass and the whole bit. So that was like another resurgence I think. But I think music has always been in our culture. So that wasn't, you know, that was something that was just there. What happened sort of in the 30s, people were punished for speaking French on the school grounds. So either they left school. You know that joke, right. You know, when they went to math class they said say one. One. They say, say two, they said bye. So, but it like happened, it's not really a joke. It happened. But a lot of people preserved it. And in Southwest Louisiana growing up, a lot of people didn't speak English in the pier because they didn't have to. And so that was that. Now, what happened to us, for me, is that when someone died that was, you know, a proponent of this music, you know, not only did you grieve for the death, physically death, but whatever history they had because our history was basic oral. With the music too, but our history of our culture too. So for us, I mean, it's like we didn't want to see that. So we decided, well we have to do something about it. How do you do something about it? You learn the music. And just like that. I mean it's not for no reward or no end result, the thing was just it needed to be done. >> Stephen Winick: So you got a sense that the older generation was passing away and you decided it was time to [inaudible] yeah. >> Michael Doucet: Because nobody was looking at it as it should be, as we thought it should be, because it's not just two-step and waltzes. I mean there's a lot of information in there. There's a lot of cultural information. And we thought we were isolated. We though nobody in the world knew about this stuff. And that started to change a lot in the 60s too, when some groups went to Newport, etcetera. It happened to us when we were invited to go to France. But anyway, I don't want to be long-winded about this. But it was something that I just want to say that the people who held the music did it because they had to. I mean, it was just a passion. It was a remarkable passion, not because of any kind of reward except the fact that they knew these songs. And people, like fiddle players, like [inaudible]. I mean he would sing song about kings and queens, and we knew he never knew any kings or queens or even knew what that was. But the fact the music keeps on going, regenerating. >> Stephen Winick: So you mention that early period when, you know, in the 20s and 30s when there were commercial music made of Cajun music. Were those still influential on people when you were growing up? I mean, were they still listening to those records, or? >> Michael Doucet: Well, you don't have those machines, 78s. What happened, a lot of, this is one example. This is like, I mentioned Amede Ardoin, who was the first creole really accordion player and real prolific. And we play about 80% of his songs. I mean Cajun repertoire, well creole repertoire now. There was a blind, almost blind Cajun guy, white guy, who learned all his songs. And most people thought, this guy has really earned his name, came up with all these songs. And nobody could reference back to the 78s. The first time I really listened to a 78 was on a 33 1/3 LP from Chris Strachwitz, Arhoolie Records. We did this, a five series that we just went crazy. Because we thought, oh this is a long time ago. It's ancient history. And then when I first met Dennis, the first time I met Dennis, I said I thought you were dead. He said not yet. So that's a big jump too. >> Stephen Winick: And I mean, you also mentioned that sort of moment in the 60s when groups started going to places like Newport. >> Michael Doucet: But they were not, I mean at home they didn't believe it. >> Stephen Winick: Right. >> Michael Doucet: You know, it wasn't like they were going to make a living about this, you know. It was just, it was regular people. You know, people, nobody really made a living at this. I mean you played Saturday nights or whatever. I mean we had a lot of people came from there like Vin Bruce and Jimmy C. Newman who went to Nashville. Doug and Rusty Kershaw, etcetera. But you had to get out. >> Stephen Winick: Right, right. >> Michael Doucet: Of Louisiana. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. Well tell me about some of the guys that you sought out and worked with. You know, start with Dennis since you already mentioned him. >> Michael Doucet: Well Dennis, like I said, I first met him I thought the was dead. You know, it was a joke. And he says, no. So I went to study with him where I had a grant for the National Endowment. And with his brother-in-law Sidney Corville [phonetic]. Because, to me, that was the oldest form of Cajun music, what we call French music. And it was so, the twin fiddles styles. Which was not popular and not played by anybody else. This recorded in the 20s, or late 20s and 30s, so this style was not there. A lot of modern musicians would always say, why are you wasting your time learning that music. I said, are you kidding? This is the essence. But it wasn't the popular country and westernized Cajun music. It was dance hall at that time. I was very much interested in the blues in this music, and there was two bluesy creole musicians. One was Canray Fontenot, and the other was Bebe Carriere. Because they had a certain style that you didn't, there was always blues in our music. I was always interested, where did this come from? You know, in Louisiana. Because Louisiana blues is different. I mean there are 12 bar, 16 bar, you know from the Delta in Louisiana. But these Cajun French blues is a little different. And I guess the, and of course, the Balfa brothers, both Will and Dewey, you know, they were very influent, because that totally, we love their music. Because there was acoustic, when it was away from Louisiana, [inaudible] Louisiana it was electric. But nevertheless. And another man that I found, he name was Varise Conner. And I said Conner, what is that? It's Britain. He says oh no, my grandfather was an O'Conner. So, O'Conner. And he played a certain style very lilting fiddle style that he had never played with an accordion. So it was kind of, you know, because when you play a fiddle and accordion, people like Hector Duhon, he was another guy. And he played a certain sickening style that was pretty amazing. But he, the accordion that was the main instrument because it was loud and etcetera and a lot of things like that. So those are the people basically. >> Stephen Winick: So Mitch, why don't you mention Dewey, because I know you worked with Dewey as well. So what was that like? How did you meet him, and how did you start to play with him? >> Mitchell Reed: I used to go to Marc Savoy's Jam when I was learning, when I was a kid. And I played string bass over there, and one time when Mac Savoy was like, hey Mitchell, come over here. Dewey's on the phone. I was like what? Dewey Balfa? Yes. He needs a bass player. His bass player got in a wreck the night before. >> That's terrible. >> Mitchell Reed: And I had a gig at the Liberty just all of a sudden. And so Marc hands me the phone, he was like, alright, do you know Cajun music? I said yeah. He said you know the chords? I said yeah. He said okay, don't mess up tonight. I'm going to trust you. So I got to the Liberty, and my family's all from Mamou, and Dewey, the Balfas are all from Mamou. And so when he found out who my family was, then I became part of the family, you know. And it was awesome. And then we came here in '98 and played for two weeks. And it was like Jamie Berzas. There was a guy, Dudley Abair [phonetic] maybe, I think, that played guitar. But we played with the Lawtell Playboys. And Dewey was awesome. I never took fiddle lessons because my hero was Dennis McGee, and I never could really pick up the way Dewey wanted me to play. He was a really strict teacher like when he'd teach you, you have to learn the chords first. And it was that Balfa style. And I was learning more the melodies from Dennis. So he'd get fed up and say okay, go practice. So I was mainly his bass player. >> Stephen Winick: Well you had talked about the difference between Cajun fiddle and other regional fiddle styles. I mean it's quite different. And I think people can hear it but maybe not understand what they're hearing. >> Mitchell Reed: Yeah, it's a lot of different styles, like Mike said, creole like you have Canray and Bois Sec. And they played creole and the Cartier family. They played the same tunes that the white players were playing, but it just had that, it had that kind of different groove to it. And I always like creole. That was kind of my thing. And to me, Dennis McGee, although he was a white, Irish guy, he played more of that creole style because he'd play with Amede, you know. >> Stephen Winick: Right. Well, I mean, just the purposes of people who might be watching this, of course, we use that word creole, and it means so many different things. >> Michael Doucet: Yes. >> Stephen Winick: So in this context, explain what we're talking about when we say creole. >> Michael Doucet: Well Creole is like rural French-speaking people of color. I mean that's the easiest way to do it. And, because there were a lot of free people of color, even though they were black, in Southwest Louisiana. And they were side-by-side with whoever was there, but mostly French. Not only Cajun, but they were French too. But they learned, there was American songs. I mean, there was a lot of, you know, in the Library of Congress when Alan Lomax went down, and he recorded Wayne Perry. Anyplace like [inaudible] hen. What other songs? And Sittin' on Top of the World. But it doesn't sound like that at all. So it's, you know, wherever it comes from, whether it's Appalachia or whatever, the music is a reflection of the landscape. And Louisiana, it's definitely, it's muggy, it's hot, it's muddy and the pace is slower. So I think that adds to it. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, I think I hear more drones in the fiddle playing than I do in most of the other styles. >> Michael Doucet: Yeah, and that's the early style. They said they played in Nova Scotia or [inaudible], but also there was a Frenchman, I believe his name was C. C. Robin, you know, Robin, who came through and mentioned that he heard these twin fiddles in Louisiana. He said it sounded like something you'd hear in France. This is pre-accordion. >> Stephen Winick: Right. Well the scene changed a lot in the 70s and 80s. I mean Cajun music went through a sort of acts of development, and people outside Cajun country came to even know that there was such a thing as Cajun music. How did that affect people who were playing it in Louisiana? >> David Doucet: That's a good question. I don't know. There's a lot more people got interested in it. See I always remember, Mike was talking that in 1968 they started, that's when I first took French in school. I was in fifth grade. And there was an organization called CODOFIL, the Council for the Development of French in Louisiana. So they had these signs everywhere. You know, speak French. It's your heritage. Everywhere. It was all in French. And apparently, the culture was going, you know, I was too young to know. But when I was in high school and Mike started BeauSoleil and Coteau. I got interested. He called me up one day and said come, let's go record a record. I'd never really played. I was learning guitar, you know. I was into folk music, acoustic, all that. But I know that we did that, and people looked at us like weird. They thought we were all Canadians. I swear to God. They still think we're Canadians. >> You're young, you play this music. >> David Doucet: It got, you know, in the 90s, 80s and 90s, we played and played and played. And I think that younger people got interested in playing music. They thought it was neat. I don't know if they speak it. We're losing the language. >> Right. >> But I think that was part of it. And also, what I've discovered now is that people that had heard us and the older people play that live elsewhere, outside Louisiana, they're all retired now, and they want to learn how to play. So there's a lot of interest in these camps where you go and you learn. And they come to Louisiana, they retire there, and they dance. And some of them try to tell you what you're doing isn't right and all that. But that's beside the point. They have a better way. But that's, I think that's the popularity of it. The kids, at home, there's, you know, you go to the festival at Cayenne at Lafayette, and there's all these people, they play, and their good. They don't sing very well, I don't think. But they play. It used to be just accordions. Because apparently an accordion is a little easier to play than a violin. Now it's all violins and fewer accordion players. It's really interesting how it does that. So, you know. >> Yeah. >> So I don't think, you're not going to lose the music. But I don't hear any of them singing. They all can play. >> Stephen Winick: That's interesting. So is the language going as well? I mean. >> Michael Doucet: Well as I say, in the 1970 census, they said there were a million French-speaking people in Southwest Louisiana. That may be an exaggeration. In year 2000, there were less 100,000 French-speaking people. So that says it right there. But it goes through like different windfalls. I mean you got to, like I said, on the first television station, there was French there. They had an announcer by the name of Jim Olivia [phonetic], who got up every morning at what 5:30? >> 5:00 in the morning. >> Michael Doucet: And he had groups on. Yeah, French royalty. He had groups on. It was all in French. And so it was there because that was the main population. And then, you know, Louisiana, because it's been, basically it's basically agriculture. And then when they found oil, then you have the influence of a lot of other people, which changed the music, etcetera. And the transition happened in the 60s basically. I think that the early 60s you started seeing that. For us, we were like, it was the young people born in the 50s who can remember it. And then we kind of got together, it was about 12 of us. It when it was like, you know, Barry Ancelet, because he went on to become a professor and a folklorist. I mean, there were so many people, some French people who were there that helped us out. The [Inaudible] used to write in French and English. And this was young people. And when we were, when we were young. But that influenced that in a group, like Dave mentioned, like Coteau and BeauSoleil, we weren't a first young people. I can't even remember people my age. I mean I think, oh what's his name from Kaplan, you know, Jessie Lashay [phonetic], he and I are about the same age. And that's about the only person my age. So it was fully, so you'd have to go through Marc because he was an accordion player and maker, and Marc Savoy. And he was, he's 11 years older than I am. So he was really at that point where he saw more of the French than we did. And Marc and I obviously played together for, still play together basically. But it was people like that who had this vision. And so we always strived to do it right. I mean it was, for no reason, we we're trying to be popular or anything like that. We were trying to get the song out. It was like the first, the first record we recorded was in France. It was just happened. I mean we were in [inaudible] and this guy came up and says, I like your music. Do you have a record? I said no. Would you like to make a record? I said yeah. And he was like the head of [inaudible]. So I said we don't have too many days. No problem. But the really first record in the United States we did we did for Floyd. I tried to do the whole gamut of it. First of all, we had the French and English translations. And the second one it wasn't just two steps and waltzes. There were ballads. They were tin pan alley songs. They were creole songs. They were reels and stuff like that. Because that's what we were learning after uncovering this where they just go to a dance, let's get drunk or try to get laid. You know, it's like a whole different picture. So we played what we call, I guess, back porch music or kitchen music. >> Stephen Winick: So when you said Floyd, that's Floyd Soileau? >> David Doucet: Yeah. >> Michael Doucet: Yeah. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. Okay. >> Michael Doucet: Yeah, it was called The Spirit of Cajun music, the Cajun Spirit Music. >> Stephen Winick: Right. So David, something that you said, you said, you know, you weren't really playing the music, you were learning guitar. And that sort of brings up that question of how much guitar has changed in the way it's played in Cajun music over the last little while and you being a big part of that. What, you know, what did you do to integrate different guitar styles and to Cajun music? >> David Doucet: Well, I had a couple of heroes. The old Doc Watson's my hero, you know. But at home, there weren't that many people that played. There was three guitar players, three or four. One was Rod, I loved the way Rodney Balfa played. And then D.L. was there, D.L. Menard. And then Preston Manuel who's always played with Dennis. >> Yeah. >> David Doucet: So he had some, impressed, by this time, you know, as a teenager or just, you know, I just graduated from high school, you go to Fred's Lounge in Mamou and, Saturday morning, what, 8 a.m., something like that, go to a radio show. And these guys, they'd be drunk at 8:00 in the morning playing music. But I'd watch him. You'd see Nathan Abshire would be there, would be the accordion player. So you got to see these guys. So you see Preston interact. And I thought the stuff he did was good. And the guy played the chords, what I heard. So for me it was like, when you blend all that together and the stuff I was learning, the folk, I liked folk music. That was my thing. I listened to Paul Simon. Then I said, well I discovered Doc and a couple of blues guys. I said this is like really cool stuff. And I thought, you could put them together. I really don't know what people are doing now. I don't live in Lafayette. I don't really go see that many bands, so I don't know what they do. And occasionally someone says, well I heard, you know, they say I'm trying to play it like you. I learned this from Mitchell, because Mitchell teaches. So he tells me that people are interested in that. And I think it's really hard to do. It's hard to actually be heard and set up to play acoustic, like what we do is very difficult. And it takes a lot of patience. And like we have our own sound guy usually. It's hard, and not everyone can afford to do that or want to do that. And acoustic guitar is just not allowed. It's not loud as an accordion. It's definitely not as loud as a fiddle. You know, to make it fit and try to do stuff. So, you know. >> Michael Doucet: Fit that sound. >> David Doucet: That's what we do. And when I play solo I play it all finger style in open tuning. So that's, from a Hawaiian influence, believe it or not, which is really bizarre. You know. >> Stephen Winick: That makes sense, yeah. >> David Doucet: But the whole deal was the rhythms. I thought the rhythms were cool, you know, getting into it, learning it. When he called up it's 1977, in August, we're going to make a record. Come practice. You know, I'd never really thought about it before. Never really listened to it. You see it on TV and kind of laugh at the old people dancing. That's what, you know. These people are like what 30 years older than me. They were old, you know. They were like 45 years old. >> Michael Doucet: That's old. >> David Doucet: You know, and they were dancing, and it's like. Folks would make fun of it because I think they made fun of the language. If you spoke French you were stupid. You know, you were uneducated. >> Michael Doucet: But they both spoke French. And my father always [inaudible]. >> David Doucet: But if they didn't want us to know what they were talking about, what do you think they'd speak? French. >> Michael Doucet: You see that' show you learn how to speak French, because I'd say, hmmm, they used to play cards. And you could only stay in the room where they played Bourre. And you could only stay in the room if they tell you something to do, and you knew what it was and you'd answer back in French. So I was adamant about learning that, because I wanted to learn all the dirty words, you know. And so I did. >> David Doucet: That's the truth. That's how it was. It was different. They want you to go learn French in school but not French, what they spoke at home. >> Michael Doucet: Yeah, but they kept it up. I mean it was, Paulette and I both spoke French. >> David Doucet: Oh yeah. We all understood it. >> Michael Doucet: That's what was, people our age were. >> David Doucet: Well the old people in the country, if you see the old people, that's all they spoke. They just spoke French. The gardener my grandmother had, he didn't speak a word of English. But you have to understand what he was saying. You know, stuff like the guy that lived next door can come wind my watch. He'd say that in French because he couldn't, he had arthritis. He couldn't, Arthur-itis [phonetic] like they called it. It's like, you know, that is weird. When you think of it like now, it's like, man, what a weird time it was. It was like in the late 60s early 70s was a mess. >> Michael Doucet: There was no, it was not about commercialization. When Paul Prudum [phonetic], who had a small restaurant in Appaloosa, moved to New Orleans, burned the red fish, it became a phenomenon. And then people started looking at it. And then Glenn Pete did a movie. I think movies had a lot to do with it. He did one called [inaudible]. And then there was another movie called The Big Easy, which was terrible. But nevertheless, it took place in New Orleans and brought out, you know, the Louisiana music. And that began this whole thing of Cajun restaurants in all parts of the country. I mean, we got some stuff, I don't know what it was, but it wasn't what we were used to. So we have it in our contract, do not serve us Cajun food. >> David Doucet: Under absolutely no circumstances feed the band Cajun. >> Michael Doucet: And so we were in St. Louis, outside of St. Louis, anyway, this little town, and the guys says, somebody's cooking for you. I said oh no. And we walk in there and it's like a magna light, and it's got about ten pounds of crawfish. And I said oh, this might be good. Well, you know, ten pounds of crawfish would feed about 20 people if they weren't Cajuns. Well, we ate the whole thing. So that kind of thing. But then, that gradually changed. And of course, it became commercial, you know, blackened chicken and stuff like that, you know. But that all, with that, we're excited about the music because they would have to have the music with it. So that influenced a lot too. And my wife always says, you know, well you're the reason why it's like this because we'd go out and say, you know, come. Well, they came, and they didn't leave. And what's odd about it is that you can't go to the Cajun or a zydeco dance and have just people from Louisiana there. That's, when we played we said just people from Louisiana. Check their licenses, you know. Because I mean it's changed that much. It's become a thing, like David was beginning to have his tirade about. But it's, we caused it in a way. And it's good because it helped people. But it's, I can't even tell you how different it is now. I mean just the fact. I mean Marc Savoy says, there's no more Cajun. They're just rednecks. You know, and so that's a whole different story. Let Marc answer that one. But I mean, that's his perspective and, you know. >> Stephen Winick: But I mean, that also opens up kind of another question which is, so you were saying, you know, check their licenses, only people from Louisiana. But not everyone from Louisiana is a Cajun, and not everyone who spoke French in Louisiana was a Cajun. >> Michael Doucet: Exactly. Exactly. But that's what I mean, the name, it doesn't exist. It's all a myth, you know. >> Stephen Winick: Right, yeah. >> Michael Doucet: So we don't exist, you know. I don't know why we're talking. Why are we talking? Anyway, yeah, you're right. And that's because people, you know, they have Romeros, they have Hoffpauirs [phonetic], that only speak French. That was something amazing about it. But that was a predominant language. And that was the strength we had, which is the strength in language, which is the strength in community, which evolves into music, okay. And when that stuff gets breaking out, or like David was saying, put down. I mean, we thought we were second class citizens. When Nick Spitzer told me in 1973 that I could get a grant, I said oh, they give grants to Cajuns? That's how naïve we were. Because it was like, you know, nobody, they'd just make fun of us. I mean we, they made fun of us. We were from a little town called Scott. We went to school in Lafayette, and people would make fun of us and laugh, yeah, you know, much less go out in the world. And then we realized oh, people in France love this stuff and Canada, etcetera. So it has a different meaning. >> Stephen Winick: So you mentioned another band that you were in, Coteau, talk a little bit about that. >> Michael Doucet: Coteau, Coteau. You want to see a picture? >> Stephen Winick: Sure. >> Michael Doucet: Sure. This was the, they called it the Cajun Grateful Dead. What happened, it was Gary Newman, whose father was Jimmy C. Newman, and Jimmy C. Newman was from Ville Platte, and he played on the Hayride. >> David Doucet: He was in a hayride, yeah. >> Michael Doucet: As did Elvis. He was there when, Elvis ruined it. Nobody would come after Elvis was there. But he found his way to Nashville, and he did really, really well. I mean, he wrote this song called Cry, Cry, Cry. And it became, you know, his song. And anyway, so he decided, he was on the Grand Ole Opry. What was the question? >> Stephen Winick: Coteau. >> Michael Doucet: Oh Coteau, okay. So his son, Gary, okay this was I was, Gary came down. This is hysterical. >> Stephen Winick: Very nice. >> Michael Doucet: That's us. And then Andy Wallace just gave me this other picture that, this is at Wolf Trap, 1976. >> Stephen Winick: Very nice. >> Michael Doucet: You see that skinny guy with the red shirt. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> Michael Doucet: We're dressed up, yeah. And anyway. So Coteau is, Gary, he got some people around. He's got Bessel de Young [phonetic], who was, you know, a friend. My mother used to play cards with his mother. And my mother used to say, don't hang around him. Of course, I did. Because Bessel's father played, recorded in 1936 with a string band, Cajun string band. But Bessel was a musician, a great musician. And so we played twin fiddles. And it was twin guitars, drums. And we brought the young people together. It was like this thing happening. This was like from about '74 to '77. And we really united a lot of people, because the old Cajuns would come, what are you all doing? I mean we played a song like Mardi Gras, which was one of the oldest songs. And people had never heard that. Of course, our rendition was a little long. But you know, it was like, it was fun. It was a happening time. And it was kind of like, I mean we're very creative, but it was kind of like Spinal Tap. You know, like the drummers would like evaporate. We lost, three of our guitar players died. So that's why David didn't want to go in the group, you know. But was just, you know. I mean it's a hard, it's same. So that brought a lot of awareness. And so it also brought a rock influence into it but at the same time, a folk mentality. And that's where, when we play, what Andy just said, we played the National Folk Festival it was both Coteau and BeauSoleil because my whole idea was to do this acoustically, like I heard it. You know, we didn't need rock. We didn't need a drum. We just needed, you know, a guitar, fiddle, accordion and percussion. So this is the original BeauSoleil group. And that was enough. That's sort of what Coteau did. But a lot of people still remember that. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah and so, and then after that, some of those influences did get absorbed into the BeauSoleil. >> Michael Doucet: Yeah. That was in the '80s, because that's what they wanted. That's what Kenner with the round the one, he wanted the Coteau sound. I said well, we're not getting Coteau again, you know. I mean it happened when it happened. And then we tried to do it again. In fact, we got together to do another Coteau album, only one. But it was like, because, anyway. And then the guitar player dies, and it was like, you know. >> Stephen Winick: But I mean, it's worked for BeauSoleil though, to have those influences. >> Michael Doucet: Yeah, of course. >> Stephen Winick: It sort of made you the Cajun band that anybody knows. >> Michael Doucet: Well, I don't know what that did. But we just, we played. I mean, you know, our thing was to play this music in the schools. And we had a, Dewey and I had a grant together to do this. And we did a lot of the schools, taught all the way to the university level, you know, to educate people about this before it's totally gone. And I'm not talking about my generation, people way beyond me. And that was our, what we really wanted to do. But then people, like the first year of BeauSoleil, we played Natural Folk Festival. We played Jimmy Carter's inauguration in '77. We had all these gigs, and you know, anyway. And so it got to the point in the mid-80s that it was hard to hold down a regular job and go out on the weekends and play these festivals. So in '85 we decided, let's try this, let's try it. And everybody going to jump in, give it six months, see what happens. So we did that in '86, and we've been doing it ever since. I mean it has its ebbs and flows, but it's, we were very lucky to be at a certain time and to know these people and be able to play with these people and learn their music firsthand. Nowadays, I mean, kids, you go on YouTube and hear whatever you want. But in those times, you had to be a person. And when you knock on a door and somebody you don't know, you know it's a whole different thing to do that. Because you don't want to take their music, you just want to learn their music. So you befriend these people, and you're friends for life. You can't do that YouTube. They don't [inaudible] back. >> Stephen Winick: So we haven't talked to Bill much. So, you know, a lot of what we're saying applies to percussion as well. There's been a lot of changes over the years, and I think that integration of new sounds, and I suppose it must have changed what you do. So talk a little about that if you would. >> Billy Ware: Well sure. I mean I was in the, on that original Swallow Record recording. And I had been doing, I hadn't been playing Cajun music. I had been doing, with a group of people, small group of people, and we improvised music for choreographers at the university. And we would continue going through this process and codify it so it's in its final form for the performances. And I was doing, I was playing in different size jazz groups from a quartet to a quintet to a septet, doing real book stuff. And that's what I was doing when Mike, I get word from a mutual friend of ours, Michael and I, Frances [inaudible] the artist. I'm an old friend of his. The word was, Michael was going to do this record, and he wanted to know if I wanted to participate. So I did. So, you know, I brought some of this to that old, to the party, so to speak. And I was trying to figure out what to do basically, you know. And because there was a certain lightness to a lot of the way that these songs were played. I mean I had heard some English folk music and things like that. So that was part of my thinking for those songs, you know. And I would just apply things where I thought percussion made sense. You know, if we need this for drive or color or whatever, I would use it there, you know. But I didn't just gratuitously add something. And I still don't do that. But as far as being, adding percussion to Cajun music, nobody does that. I'm the only guy, I'm standing alone out in my field, you know. Nobody's come after me, so I don't know what to make of that. But. >> Michael Doucet: It didn't make any sense to me that you had Billy who was so talented, and played triangle, we had to get triangle from. >> Billy Ware: I didn't even have one for that recording. >> Michael Doucet: Yeah. But the thing is, all our music, we would play, you know, exotical music, some exotic, some creole song. Why didn't they use drums? That's like the basic thing. >> Yeah. >> Michael Doucet: And Billy had, you know, in his hand, and all this kind of stuff. And I said, that's good. That gels the music. That brings it all together. It is very unique. >> Billy Ware: Yeah, and you can change off. If you have a very kit, you can change off during a song. And it's like, and frankly, I took that approach from looking at early weather report stuff. You know, from the beginning of the 70s, you know. And that's, I wasn't quite as interactive and spontaneous in my approach to applying that. But still, just the idea that you could use different things in different places to articulate and whatever, expand upon. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, it just changes the texture during a song. >> Billy Ware: Yeah, yeah, but that's where I was coming from. Frankly, that's where I still come from. >> Michael Doucet: With that weather report it's going to rain. >> Billy Ware: Not today. It looks like, feels like 82, mostly cloudy at night, you know. >> Stephen Winick: So did you even play triangle at first, or did you have to learn that? >> Billy Ware: No, I didn't even own one, you know. As matter of fact, when we went to Floyd's Swallow Studio, there was one lying around. They said here, you can use this. That was great. It's a relief. I've got something to play here. And I put, you know, I don't know if you've heard their record, but I put all kinds of stuff on it. It's like, well I just brought a bunch of things, and we had to pile in a van as I remember, David, Michael and I. >> Michael Doucet: That's pretty much it. >> Billy Ware: It was wild, you know. At the end of the day, we would drive up there and work into the night, and then we'd finish and then drive back afterwards, you know. I don't even know how long that took. >> Michael Doucet: It took us a long time. >> Billy Ware: Yeah, it seemed like. It seemed like weeks to me. You know, so. >> Michael Doucet: With Billy, you got to see us trying, Don Montece [phonetic] is an accordion player and a bus driver, and he's a welder, so he made these beautiful, beautiful triangles from rakes. And you'd have to go to him. And Billy's got one that's extended. Don said, I messed up on that one. Billy says, I love that one. And he played it, what was it a tractor like, some kind of wrench or something. >> Billy Ware: Well the triangle is, actually Don Montece had made that for a certain individual, a custom [inaudible] as they say, you know. And I saw that. And as Michael said, I want that one. He said, well, you know, that guy, he just recently died, so he's not going to be using it. So I bought that one from him. And the striker, when I was in college, I was going walking into a building in a field, and my foot hit something, and I looked, and it was a gear shift from apparently like, you know, like a tractor or something. And you see this threading on the end where the ball went, with still like the catalog number on the part. But, you know, the thing is, it's got a great balance. >> Yeah, it sounds good. >> Billy Ware: Because it tapers towards the end. And you can do that, and it balances beautifully. And because it's tapered, and because it's not completely round or flat, you can get a lot of different tonalities out of it. So you get like a capable Cajun triangle like that or a [inaudible], you can use this thing and apply it in different ways, and turning it this way, and you can get subtle shifts in tonality, which can mirror the melody of the song. So. >> Stephen Winick: Excellent. Well, we got more about the different tonalities of the triangle than the fiddle. >> Michael Doucet: The fiddle just sounds the same. >> Right. >> Stephen Winick: So I also wanted to talk to Mitch about some of the other groups that you've been in, like Taso [phonetic] and some of those groups. What was the philosophy there with other bands you've been in? >> Mitchell Reed: Oh yeah, with Taso, in fact Mike produced our record, it was to just try to sound like the old 78 records. And we had, we found this guy in the swam, Philip Alamo, he was spraying water lilies for Wildlife and Fisheries. But he sounded just like these old guys. And his accordion even, he played one of Errol Verret's accordions. But Mike has like the first accordion Marc Savoy ever made. And it's this wild accordion. So Mike let us borrow it, and we did a record, and Mike produced it. And it was just really to sound like those old 78s, you know. >> Stephen Winick: I think I've got that record. >> Mitchell Reed: Oh, okay, yeah. Oh good, good. >> Stephen Winick: Excellent. So good job from all of you. >> Mitchell Reed: Thank you. >> Stephen Winick: So great. And the other person that's now come up a whole bunch of times and has also been a musical partner of yours for a long time, is Marc Savoy. And so talk a little about the Savoy influence on Cajun music but also on you guys. >> Michael Doucet: You mean the dynasty? >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, the dynasty, the band. >> Michael Doucet: Well, the thing about Marc, Marc is a super intelligent person, which is unusual around where we live. And he's very special. Like I said, he was born at a certain time here he was, one foot in one time era, the other foot in the modern time. And he decided, I think he's celebrating his 50, his 50th year or something like that, of opening his door. And he did that because, after he heard that people went in Newport, he said oh, it's going to be popular. So there was only one or very few accordion makers at that time. So he started making, because he graduated in engineering. And he starting making accordions because we didn't have that, I mean they would fall apart, you know. They had these old Hohners or monarch of Sterlings for sure, made pre-World War II Germany. And so he started doing that. So he was like, he was the focal point where you find it. And if you want to have a [inaudible] you bring it to him. Because it'd bring it to life. [Inaudible]. Marc was just, and it is, is a treasure trove of what was going on at that time. It just so happens it was at that 1976 National Folk Festival where Marc just showed up. He actually played with us. But he would pull me to the side, come on Mike, let's just jam, you know. So we'd go to some, wherever, and lo and behold this young woman by the name of Ann Allen Savoy from Richmond, Virginia, showed up, and like was totally enamored with the music. And she went, and she and Marc got together. And that's Mrs. Savoy. And of course, they had kids all along. And their kids have done, I mean from Sarah, who's in France. She's a chef and plays accordion. To Joel, he was kind of, music label. And Wilson who plays boogie woogie and all this stuff. And you know, it's like it's a very solid family. But I mean, they're crazy like everybody else. And they just, it's just fun. And the thing with this, Marc is just very aware about what is right, what is wrong. I mean we've had long discussions about, you know, in the early days, I'm talking about in the early 70s about really the influence of the creoles, the black creoles. And I was always been a proponent of Amede Ardoin because, you know, because I just love his music. And people in Cajun said oh, he played too many notes and choppy and stuff like that. But the quality of what he played and the creativity is just amazing. And a lot of us didn't have access to these things. Although Marc, his parents, Amede played at Marc's parents' house. I mean and Dennis used to live in the house he's living in now. So it's a funny thing that happens. So he is one of those people that's just, it's a cornerstone, he's a cornerstone of our society. And that's just the way it is. And he didn't try to be. He doesn't want any kind of accolades or anything like that. And a lot of people, oh I can do this. And that's another lesson that, you know, Octa used to say, Octa Clark, he'd say, well you can't do it wrong if you do it right, you know. And I think that's, you just try to do it right for the right reasons. And so Marc has been a great example of that. And people sometimes are scared. Because if he doesn't like you. >> Yeah. >> Michael Doucet: I mean, don't touch that guitar. You going to buy it? It's time for you to leave. You know, he doesn't care. I mean he goes beyond what most, anything. You know, it's like, he's got a sign in his shop that says, Stradivari made 661 instruments. The Cajuns have 2,000 of them. You know, it's like [inaudible]. And other philosophies. So yeah, he's quite an individual. And the family is great. And still, I had dinner with him last Saturday, so alive and well. Say hello. >> Stephen Winick: Alright. So another thing I wanted to ask about was songwriter. Because you played a couple of songs today that you wrote. >> Michael Doucet: Yeah. >> Stephen Winick: But they, you know, they sound like they could be traditional songs, and certainly, they have traditional expressions in them. Just the way that you wrote them is really in keeping with the tradition. What's your philosophy on that, on the songwriting? >> Michael Doucet: Well, I haven't written that many songs, you know, a hundred or so, but anyway. You know, it's nice to do an expression. I love traditional music. When David and I got together, that was it. I mean we're just going to learn as much as we can, different styles. But there's a certain point, and I use the metaphor as a wheel. Sometimes there's a cog missing, and you get, you're not saying exactly what you want to say. So creating a song or writing a song gives you that element. And so you perpetuate that. And a lot of the songs that I like to write, or did at some points, was about musicians. Like Bebe Carriere or Freeman Fotno [phonetic], people that most people don't know. But to us, they're like, they're revered. And so songs about that. Other songs are more modern songs. And sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't. And it's wonderful to hear people play them, you know. But I don't write them for other people, I write them for us. And because it just works really well with, like I said, this key and things like that. David sings this song, and you know, things like that. So I enjoy writing. I don't write as much anymore. But I still do, you know. >> Stephen Winick: Well on the other end of that you mentioned, there were times when people didn't have access to some of the older music, and they weren't able to get them either because they were on old 78s or because they were old archival recordings. And we have an interest in that because, you know, this is the Library of Congress. >> Michael Doucet: Oh, that's where we are? I knew it looked familiar. >> Stephen Winick: The recordings for. So talk about the influence of archival recording on [inaudible]. >> Michael Doucet: I came here when we got a grant, it's called the [inaudible] studies grant at, at that time, USL. And it was amazing grant is that we had music. We had language. There's no such thing as a Cajun dictionary. They had been Cajun dictionaries in the 30s and things like that. People who studied [inaudible] amazing stuff that we found. Architecture, women, creole, [inaudible]. So I was asked to teach the Cajun or French music. The name of my course was French music in Louisiana, opera to zydeco. So that' pretty vast. One of those things that we knew about, and I was befriended in the early 70s, was a woman by the name of Irene Whitfield Holmes who wrote one of the first books. It was her 1939 LSU thesis on folk songs of French Louisiana. And you know, another one, I thought she was dead too. My aunt says, no, she lives right behind over there. So I went, and we became really good friends. And she's the one who gave me my first Amede Ardoin, 78, which you could play in those days. And she played violin. So we played these terrible duets together. But she, her book, I learned a lot in the book. And some of my first records where she translated Alan and John Lomax's recordings, transcribed. I'd never heard it, and from her transcriptions we recorded there of their songs. And then finally in 1979, I came down here to collect the whole Lomax collections, and that's when Hickerson was here. And I just, I couldn't leave. I had never heard anything like this. It was so amazing. So thanks to the Library of Congress, and Al, of course. We met Alan Lomax when he came down, blah, blah, blah. But yeah, I mean I think it, when Alec Jabor [phonetic] was here too, it kind of, we kind of shy. You know, it's like Washington, but, you know, hmm. But once you get here, you realize it's all run by human beings who have the same passion that we do. So it kind of knocked down those walls. So yeah, very much appreciate being here and being able to perform. >> Stephen Winick. Well we love to have you here, and. >> Michael Doucet: Well we're free next week. >> Stephen Winick: Alright. So yeah, so you know, it's now time when I'm going to ask you guys if there's anything else you feel that should be said about your tradition about Cajun music. >> Billy Ware: I don't think it's dying. >> Michael Doucet: It's alive and well. It's different. It changes. It's not the same thing. Like David was saying, you know, it's never going to be the same. People have to accept that. Cajun music kind of changes, that's why it perpetuates itself like that. You find more people singing it in English. And that's going to happen. Because people can understand it. You know, You're not going to sing a song just because people can't understand it. That's not the point. The point of it was to sing in French because that's who your audience was. And you know, it's hard to deal with this to see a change. We saw the changes in the 70s, you know, when, well first of all, when Will and Rodney Balfa died February 9, 1979. That's like the day the music died because it was never really the same, even for Dewey. And then Nathan died the year after that. And Dewey's wife died. And so anyway, it's like, you, you know, you play it because you love it, and you live life to the fullest. And that's what it is. And that's still the same. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> David Doucet: People only hear stories now. That's what I, you know, I play with a couple of little bands, and I done one in a town called Morris, Louisiana, about a month ago with one of the Pine Leaf Boys. And these guys are all, they all played, but they hired them to do this Knights of Columbus thing. But what they wanted to hear, because I was there, I knew Canray Fontenot. They wanted to hear stories by Canray they don't know. They wanted to hear a couple of stories about, even Dewey, but also Dennis. Nobody knows the story about Dennis when we took him to New York and he almost had a heart attack when Michael stole him out of a hospital. And still had his electrodes on. >> Michael Doucet: Hey Gladys. >> David Doucet: But things like that. That's what people, because they don't, there's no contact. Those people aren't there. We lived through that. And so we saw this. And it's like, you tell the stories today and people say, no. They don't believe any of them. Mitchell has stories of some of the old timers. >> Michael Doucet: But you know, yeah you got, the time when, you know, James Booker is a great piano player. And we were just happen to be in New Orleans. So there were about 15 people there. And he'd play a song, and he'd say okay. He had a new album. Okay, who wants to buy an album? Well, after 15 songs, we all had his album. It was his last concert. >> He didn't play no more. >> Michael Doucet: Fifteen people, I've talked to about 100 people who told me they were there. And I said, funny I don't remember you there. And so you have this, even though it's folklore and people want to. I heard this, anyway. So that's changed too. So the thing is to set it straight, you know. >> Stephen Winnick: Well now you have to tell a story about Canray, because you. >> David Doucet: There's a lot of them. >> Billy Ware: Well, let me tell you. [ Overlapped Speaking ] >> David Doucet: Michael had an emergency kidney stone, and couldn't make the trip. [ Inaudible ] So it's like, oh, he's hurting and all this. >> Michael Doucet: So who you going to get to replace? >> David Doucet: Get Canray to take his place. >> Michael Doucet: Like who else, man. They said, what? >> David Doucet: Yeah so, you know, Canray, we got him a ticket. You know, those were the old days. You could change the name on the ticket. And I remember calling up. Michael gave me his phone number, and I talked to his wife. She said, he's so excited, David. He's drunk in a ditch somewhere. I said oh my God, is he going to show up for the gig? We go, I don't even know if Michael knows this. He was my roommate. And we'll get to that later. We play the gig, and you know, Canray liked to drink a little bit. And for some reason the promoter had a half gallon of Early Times backstage. And we were playing in Charlotte, North Carolina. And Canray, we all talked about it, and said alright, we're going to go and play two or three songs, and you come out and play the rest of the set. We'll introduce you and all this. No problem. We played the three songs, Canray come, so we play another song. Canray. He comes out and talks for the next 45 minutes. Yeah, that reminds me of another story. Another story. Okay, so he's a little drunk. And we haven't eaten yet. So we ended up, the only place that was open in Charlotte, North Carolina, and this is the truth, was a Hooters. And our agent at the time took us, and we went to eat at a Hooters. >> Michael Doucet: And of course, it was awful. >> David Doucet: But then we all go to the hotel and it's like Canray's my roommate, and I didn't know he had false teeth. And he took out his teeth and he looked like ET. I woke up, who are you? Something else, man. But he was a character. These are stories, there's a lot of. >> It's the right place at the right time. >> David Doucet: Or the time we played for Dutch Morial who was running for mayor, the first black mayor of New Orleans. And Canray was somehow involved with this. I do not know how, but we had to play a fundraiser. We all get on the stage. Well Canray's tuned in between standard pitch and somewhere. >> Billy Ware: He's like [inaudible]. >> David Doucet: You know, he was our accordion player in the key of C, and Canray is like in C sharp or above. Who knows. And we play songs in double keys the whole night. It was very strong. >> Michael Doucet: That's the way it's supposed to sound, right. But Canray was very, I mean he was born, he lost his father. He father was an accordion player, just the same caliber as Amede Ardoin. But he chose not to record. And he had to work and support his mother and his sisters, etcetera. So he had a hard life. You know, he just kind of had that on it. And one of the, I mean there's so many story like David says. But one of the times is when Chris called me up, we went to get Canray just to record him. And we had to, and we went to where he was working. He was lifting feed seed, I mean seed sacks, feed seed sacks. Feed seed sacks. Yeah, okay. Anyway, you know what I mean. And people who, the proprietors of the place said, why are you interested in, you know, I'm not going to use the term, but you can imagine. And I said, well basically, he's a genius. And they just, you know. And we went there that night, and it was very, we had a great meal. And we did the record. And he took off his shoes, and just his foot like that against the floor. So that was one of the high points, just playing that, he and I. But I mean he was, we played in poor towns in 1980. And you know, a lot of white people there. So Canray hits the bottle again, and he says, this is how he opens the concert. I feel like a fly in a bowl of milk. And so, but, you know, it's like. That's a whole different interview, man. I'd rather get started like that. And you know, everybody knew him. Everybody's got their stories. >> Billy Ware: Basically, we were there active in this transition point in which we, what was fundamental in the 19th century and the 20th century for that culture. You know, and all those old guys are going away. You know. >> Michael Doucet: But he was amazing to know. Several different. >> David Doucet: Or the time we were playing at Carnegie Hall. We're all in the cab. He gets out of the cab and says, I've played here before. >> I've been here. Yeah. I remember that place. >> David Doucet: He was a genius. >> Michael Doucet: Oh yeah. >> David Doucet: That's just him. >> Michael Doucet: Yeah. >> David Doucet: There's countless others. >> Stephen Winick: Well one thing that, you now, this was something you said earlier reminded me of, you were talking about how playing, you know, playing English songs is becoming more common because people don't understand the French songs. But that sort of made me think about the influence of other French-speaking places. You know, you recorded your first album in France. And Canada is sort of a big place too. So how is that sort of global French community affected you guys? >> Michael Doucet: Well, we used to, they didn't have a category for Cajun music. We were world music rather. They didn't know where to put us. It is really world music when you think about all the influences. You know, it's like what happened, it wasn't just now. It happened in the 50s. And a certain genre of music that's mixed with rockabilly and New Orleans music. And it's called swamp pop. This guy, Broden [phonetic] came up with that. And it's rock and roll. And one of the guys, Rod Bernard saying [inaudible] rock and roll. He was actually on American Bandstand. So it's always, you know, we wanted to make the transition, but they wanted to do it with electric guitars and things like that. So it wasn't done with accordions. That came later. And Jimmy C. Newman, you know he sings in English too, etcetera, like that. So you know, all that, Kershaw, [inaudible] too. I mean it's slowly it's there. And I think for it to survive, it has to regenerate to something else. As long as it's real, you know. >> Stephen Winick: Well you guys definitely play real music. I think we can all say that. >> Michael Doucet: That's all we know. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah, well alright. I want to thank you very much for this interview. It's been a great time sharing stories about >> Michael Doucet: My pleasure. >> Stephen Winick: Cajun music and French music. >> Michael Doucet: That's what we talked about. That's right. >> Stephen Winick: Alright, thank you very much. >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at loc.gov.