>> From the Library of Congress in Washington, DC. >> Hello, everyone. My name is Betsy Peterson. I'm the Director of the American Folklife Center here at the Library of Congress, and on behalf of the staff, I want to welcome you all today. It's a gorgeous day here, and I'm really pleased that you all are here to share it with us. This is a special program, part of our Homegrown Concert Series, part of our Lecture Series, and it's an opportunity for us to have, for us to engage in a conversation with individuals who have been awarded the National Heritage Fellowship, which is the highest honor given to traditional artists in the United States by the National Endowment for the Arts, and we're thrilled to have actually not just two; we have three here today with us, and that's very exciting. All the way from California, we Roy and PJ Hirabayashi, the leaders of San Jose Taiko, and we have Daniel Sheehy, the Ethno Music College's Director Emeritus of Smithsonian Folkways, and actually, a National Endowment Heritage Fellow for Cultural Advocacy. So, he's going to be doing some of this cultural advocacy work today, interviewing our artists here. Just as a little bit of background the Homegrown Series is an opportunity for the American Folklife Center to work with cultural specialists folklorists at the Music colleges, artists around the country to identify the very best of traditional arts, music, dance, narrative, arts, and work with individuals to bring artists here to share their traditions with all of you and to consent, agree to be recorded for our archives. And this session today is no different. It will be recorded, and this conversation will be in our archives so that future generations can access it, and people around the world will be able to view and listen to it. So, with that little caveat, let me ask you to turn off your cell phone, if you have such a thing and have it on, or else you will memorialized in our archive as well. I also want to thank, actually, while I'm on the topic of acknowledgements and talking about partners and individuals we work with, I also want to thank Mark Rooney today of Washington, DC, who was very gracious, for learning his drums today because I believe the San Jose Taiko Drums are over on the mall right now and need to stay there. So, but at any rate, so our program today, acknowledged as one of the Premiere Music Ensembles in the United States, San Jose Taiko was founded in 1973 by young Asian Americans searching to convey their experiences as third generation Japanese Americans and inspired by traditional Japanese drumming. Company performers express the beauty and harmony of the human spirit through the voice of the Taiko drum, and as they strive to create new dimensions in music, movement, and tradition, San Jose Taiko's performances feature visual elements in choreography requiring physical strength, endurance, focus, and energy. And the members of the group participate in composing, choreographing, designing, and fabricating costumes and hand crafting the drums. This collective effort produces a performance that highlights group unity and purpose. In 1987, San Jose Taiko became one of the first American Taiko ensembles to be invited to perform in Japan. They have performed in a wide range of venues, from small community centers throughout California and schools, to Carnegie Hall. In addition to offering extensive educational and community outreach programs, San Jose Taiko is currently working on establishing a Taiko Conservatory, the first of its kind in the United States, which is exciting. I hope we'll hear more about that. Roy and PJ are credited for developing a holistic art form that embraces artistic excellence, while also encouraging San Jose Taiko members to become leaders and community builders. So, please, let's welcome Roy and PJ Hirabayashi, National Heritage Fellows, and Dan Sheehy. [ Audience Applause ] >> Daniel Sheehy: Thank you, Betsy. You said everything I was going to say, so I don't have anything left to say. Thank you all for coming here today. We can't have this presentation without you all here, so you're very much a part of this. And I have to say, just to start off myself, that I'm so incredibly humbled to be here on this little platform with two of the most articulate activist traditional artists that this country, or maybe beyond, has ever produced. And so, it's I just feel so moved and humbled to be here with you also. Thank you for taking the time to come up to the Library of Congress. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Thank you. [Inaudible] >> PJ Hirabayashi: He's totally honored. >> Daniel Sheehy: Okay. So, why don't we start with a why question. Why Taiko? And you know, this goes back to, as Betsy mentioned in her opening remarks there, there were things happening in the late 1960's and early 1970's in California, particularly the Bay Area perhaps, in particular. Can you set the scene and give us a sense of why? Why are we here today? Why we have these drums? >> Roy Hirabayashi: Sure. Well, yes, in the late 1960's, I think probably some of you can remember at that time was really a lot of happenings happening in our country. The Social Justice Movement was really, the Civil Rights Movement was really active; the Anti-War Movement was going on, and so at that time it was also for a lot of people of color, it was a search of identity, asking the question of what is my heritage, what is my ethnic background, where do my family, where does my family come from, and how do we fit here in America. I'm Sansei, third generation; so, my grandparents emigrated here from Japan, from Hiroshima [phonetic] area. My parents were born here in the United States, but they were actually sent back to Japan to be raised from elementary to high school, and then came back to the US just before World War II broke out. So, they were primary Japanese speaking when they returned to the US, so they're considered what's called, they're Nisei second generation, but they're considered Kepay [phonetic], raised in Japan but American citizens. Sansei, I was born right after World War II in the early 1950's, and so at that time for us, for me, it was really kind of the search of who I was. I was a Japanese American, and within that context of what was going on again in the late 1960s. That was the beginning of Ethnic Studies on campuses. Again, the Anti-War Movement was going on, the war in Southeast Asia; so, for a lot of us, it was just trying to search how that identity or search for what we were as Japanese Americans was really kind of what's going on. And so, I've always loved music, playing music in different ways, and so when I discovered the Taiko, the Japanese drum, I quickly discovered or found that this was a voice that was missing in my life because growing up there was no musical voice for me that really connected to my heritage as a Japanese American.. PJ can answer that. >> Daniel Sheehy: Can I just ask when was that very first moment that you heard or saw a Taiko drum? >> Roy Hirabayashi: Well, actually, growing up, I heard Taiko playing in our festivals in our, in the Japanese community, but for me to really connect to it, it was in actually the early 1970's when I first heard a San Francisco Taiko group, and there's another group in Los Angeles called the Keyano [phonetic] Taiko. We started San Jose Taiko in 1973, so it was around and that really it's connecting to the ideas around 1972, 1973 on. >> Daniel Sheehy: Great. Thanks. PJ? >> PJ Hirabayashi: Ditto. [Laugh] Just to kind of cap on our similarities, my grandparents are from Japan, and my parents were born in California, and I grew up in, well, I was born in 1950, so right after World War II, I went to public school. That was 1955-ish, and I was the only Asian face at school, and I was quickly reminded that I was already different. And there was something about going to school and already being cast out as being different and not included and the separation of like why am I not being included. So, there was already this very seething feeling of inferiority, less than, no self-esteem, and that's how I actually felt, you know, not being included for a long period of time. And so, just kind of quickly forward, to have heard Taiko in the early 1970's, all of a sudden became like "Wow!" I saw this energy, you know, and they were, there were men and women. They were all dressed up in happi coat, and in San Francisco [inaudible]. By the way, Sage Tanaka is also a Heritage Fellow too. And to be able to see this unabashed energy coming from the stage, this expression, and immediately it's like I want to do that; almost like, I can do that. How can I do that? And so it was like that exploration of, okay, I want to find Taiko, how I could become like this. I always use the word "ballistic," you know, being a woman too, it's like you're always, and Asian woman too, so ballistic was like, okay, let go, you know, this is self-expression at its best, and I don't have to talk. This is the way I'm going to communicate with you. This is how loud I'm going to become that I could not show you as I as growing up as a little girl. >> Daniel Sheehy: Were women very much a part of the Taiko scene that you were exposed to back then? >> PJ Hirabayashi: In the very beginning, it was very prominent. I mean, I would say that, well, for San Jose Taiko, as we started in 1973, we were like about 85% women. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Women. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Yeah. I think we were all searching for something, whether we were conscious of it or no. You know, it's like that freedom of expression, and people coming together and doing something and exploring together; not, you know, there is kind of root culture, but how does it affect us living here in America, how does it translate, how is it different? >> Daniel Sheehy: Right. Could you, this might be, is this the time to give us a sense of that wild moment, what you heard that sort of grabbed you and pulled you into this, right now? This is part of our plan, just so you know. [ Laughter ] >> PJ Hirabayashi: Orchestrated. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Well, this is a great opportunity for us just to demonstrate a piece. This piece is called Celebration. It's a duet piece that PJ and I wrote. I can't even remember when it was we wrote this, but it's a number of years back. But it'll feature so many small drums that we have here. The Taiko comes in many different sizes; unfortunately, we could not bring some of the large ones here today, but we have a nice sample from Mark Rooney to show you. Again, Celebration. [ Drums Performance ] [ Audience Applause ] >> Daniel Sheehy: My turn. [Laugh] [ Audience Laughter ] >> Daniel Sheehy: We were pleased that [inaudible] and I to have a little class before you all came here today, so I think we'll refrain, right. We'll just leave it to PJ. So, we've moving from the why a little bit into the what. So, you heard a little bit of the what, and you're looking at some of the what here. Can you tell us what, well, maybe what is Taiko? Maybe we just start there and kind of go, move out. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Well, first of all, Taiko is the Japanese word for the Japanese drum. So, it refers to all the different size drums you actually will see in Japan or here in the United States now, and actually you could see just from our small collection here that we're using there's a variety of different styles that the drum comes in. And as I mentioned before, they actually be much larger. In Japan, or even here in the US, you'll see drums sort of up to four or five feet in diameter, weighing 3, 4, 500 pounds to this much smaller drum that can actually be held in one hand. And so, what we have in collection in general is the barrel style Taiko, which they call the Narvado [phonetic] drum, See, it's tacked on with tacks in order to put the cowhide on there, and the smaller drums, the real small drum, we call the Shime Taiko. It's double-headed with rope, and you could adjust the tension and the pitch with the rope, and then the little bit longer barrel drum in the middle, we call kettle drum, which is also barrel style, made out of flat woods. And those drums also are tied by rope with the different heads. And those, those kettles, also come in many different sizes, much smaller ones that you carry around to larger ones that would sit on a stand. But in Japan, again, or here in the United States, we use a variety of different drums in order to create the different pitches, styles, uses within movement or dance also, and in order to really create the music that we want to be doing. >> PJ Hirabayashi: So, maybe what we can explain is what you're seeing today as kind of contemporary. So, what we've been able to infuse in our style is some understanding and respect for the roots of where Taiko come from, from Japan. And in Japan, Taiko was really never used for art sake; it was for life sake. It's to accompany the prayers and chanting for good harvest and rain, and also to chase away the insects from crops, and in time of bountiful harvest there was celebration; so, for a good harvest. Even warriors would use the sound of Taiko to frighten their enemy. The villagers would use Taiko to have people congregate in the center of the village when there was a time to come together. But Kumi-daiko, K-u-m-i, in Japanese it means "ensemble." Ensemble playing really did not become popular until after World War II, and I think this is all from the same reason like why we play joyfully for a celebration. This is after World War II, and in Japan there were some Taiko players that they felt that, wow, we need to kind of reinvigorate to become, you know, enliven, uplift ourselves for after a harsh World War, and that's how Kumi-daiko started to become popular in Japan. So, it's, we're not talking about ancient Kumi-daiko playing. So, that's what really infused our interest. Like how do we use this as a tool of bringing people together, building community, and like expression? There was no way. Remember, when we started a group in the 1970's we didn't have any cell phones or computers, so LPs, you know, we would buy these LPs from Japan and play it; and yet there was something about it that we felt that, wow, let's recognize these rich traditions from Japan, but let's just don't copy. You know, we just don't want to copy or appropriate those songs. Let's create music that comes from us, you know, and let's also, we didn't, we couldn't afford drums -- quickly going back, we didn't afford drums from Japan because one small drum would cost like $3000 to $5000 just for a group to have. So, one of our predecessor groups, Sansei Taiko down in Los Angeles, was very innovative. They took a wine barrel that they bought in Los Angeles and wanted to make Taiko become accessible like more through the Buddhist Temple and activities to draw in young people because there was kind of like young people were losing interest in Buddhist religion. So, Sansei Taiko, >> Roy Hirabayashi: Kinnaro. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Kinnaro Taiko, excuse me, devised these wine barrel Taiko, which actually is the predecessor of American Taiko, and that's what you see here. It's actually a combination. I think there's two drums, the small pitch drums that are roped from Japan, and the other three drums are actually made here in the States. >> Daniel Sheehy: So, if you had your full group here, here we have one, two, three, four, five drums, two players, how many drums and how many people would we have here for a typical San Jose Taiko? >> Roy Hirabayashi: For San Jose Taiko, I think we have about 22 performing members. There's occasions at home where we'll play with all members and actually fill up an entire room out on the stage, and so, and a variety of drums. So, when we tour, actually, we're touring with a good almost 20 different drums of different sizes in order to do one performance concert. There's a base, I guess, style or ensemble drum, which is about, I guess, about 10 pieces minimum that we would use, but they're much larger than what we have here. >> Daniel Sheehy: Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, I was wondering about that because I thought I could hear the [inaudible] Stradivarius Strings resonating. [Laughing] Okay. I just wondered if we have like 10 more drums, what would happen to the glass over there. So, help us out here, so when we're listening to you all perform, or San Jose Taiko perform, what should we pay attention to? I mean, obviously, there's movement. There's a visual aspect there. There's sound, there's quite a bit going on. Give us something to grab onto here. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Well, I would say, as a viewer audience, just listen with open mind and open heart. Don't categorize us as saying, that's not authentic from Japan. And I think also what we really want to have people experience is kind of finding your own story, how in our explanation of the songs that are created by individuals within San Jose Taiko Company, there's a backstory to every song. So, you make it your, we won't tell you exactly what to think. So, we want you to kind of like imagine. But I really love at the end of a performance at a concert in a theatre, and we go to the lobby and thank the audience for coming out, we will often hear people say, "Oh, wow, you made me cry." Or, "Wow! I'm just feeling so great." And you go, "Thank you, and I'm sorry." No, but there's something about that experience that you touch them. You know, if there was that tear that came up, there was something that they were able to experience. So, it's kind of like, yeah, we leave it out for the expression to speak for itself. >> Roy Hirabayashi: We're like that people got to decide for themselves what they want to take from it without a certain, being guided in a certain direction, right. >> PJ Hirabayashi: I do say that like in the philosophy of San Jose Taiko that there is purpose and intention behind everything that we do, and even though we don't tell you, it's a little way through our, you know, selves that we're communicating, you know, this, the principles of playing together as an ensemble of oneness, of open heart, open mind. >> Daniel Sheehy: Bessie Peterson mentioned that the opening remarks that I was trained as an Ethnomusicologist, and one of the things that I gathered from all that training was that music has absolutely no meaning whatsoever. I mean, it has absolutely no meaning whatsoever except for the meaning that people give it. And I'm curious, what, could you talk a little bit about the two sides of that conversation? Like what meaning, examples of meaning that you've given the music, either musically or in terms of that story behind it, as you were saying. And then, what meaning have you seen people take from it or add to it, you know, like people sitting here right here today? Can you give us a sense of those two sides of that conversation a little bit from your experience? >> Roy Hirabayashi: Sure. I'll start with that. Well, when we started San Jose Taiko, we're the third group to begin here in North America, and probably at that time outside of Japan, as far as this particular ensemble form. So, we were, as PJ mentioned, trying to draw from experience or sounds that we felt were coming from Japan but more importantly what was we felt, we grew up as as Japanese Americans, and so the music we were writing early on really incorporated a lot of that influence. And so when you hear our music, you may kind of sense of a jazz or an Afro-Cuban thing going on, or polyrhythmic stuff happening, and so you might get that kind of sense of a rhythm going on that you'll be hearing when we're playing. And so, I'm hoping as a musician, or as a Taiko player, that people when they are listening to us as musicians are playing music that really kind of touches different aspects of what you may really enjoy as a listener or just enjoy of music. So, you might sense as the soloist doing different things and that kind of things happening and also different textures of what the different drums may be doing at the same time. And so, it's really trying to combine a lot of that, and then on top of that is the movement. So, for those who enjoy dance and movement, there's that piece of what Taiko is all about too. So, we're trying to combine what we many times refer to as dancing with the drums. So, the audience could really kind of enjoy that kind of variety of what's happening. So, we're hoping that as an audience member you're not just focusing on one person, but you're looking at everybody and really have a hard time watching [inaudible] ensemble because each person is doing something different. And rather than watching, say, an orchestra or a string ensemble where it's a little bit more stationery. And so, with that, it's really just trying to create that, the vibrancy of playing the drum, having the opportunity to just enjoy what we're playing, and hopefully passing that on to you too so you can enjoy that experience too at the same time. >> PJ Hirabayashi: It's so multi-disciplinary, as Roy is saying, there's the physical aspect, musical aspect. There's kind of like the theatrical aspect as well. So, as an audience, I imagine somebody in a different discipline, ethnic, you know, art, like wow, I wonder what that sounds like if we got together. Like I'm feeling that there's also this inciting excitement of exploration. Even as an artist, you don't have to be musical. Maybe it's like I want to just experience what it's like to hit that drum, you know. And yeah, that's the invitation. >> Daniel Sheehy: What about stepping back, let's say, you know, a football field, or whatever, conceptually? Festivals, I've gone to, for example, looking for a representation of who is in a community, or who's in a broader community, or whatever. And it seems like over the years that Taiko has been selected as one of those potent expressions that it's more than music in a general kind of way. Do you have a take on that yourself, or what would you see there? You know what I'm trying to, attempting to say here? >> Roy Hirabayashi: Yes. And we're excited about the fact that, you know, we're, I mean, again, we are trying to be serious about our musical form and what we compose, but as a form in a musical entity that we're really trying to build a community, so we realize that the drum is a calling instrument for the community itself. And so, like you're mentioning, I mean, we play for City Hall officials, football games and festivals and school assemblies and, I mean, weddings and even, unfortunately, funerals, we've been asked to play at. But it's, basically, it's us being asked to use the drum through, as a voice to call people together and to share that experience. And so, that's one really important thing that we feel about what Taiko for us and what sounds like Taiko's been trying to do is use the instrument in our music as a way to help gather people together and bring people together to enjoy what's happening as a community itself. >> PJ Hirabayashi: I have to add with that that the first three Taiko groups, of which we are the third, actually [inaudible] were started from Japan towns. Three Japantowns who made it in the United States that are physical entities still and recognized as Japantowns, Los Angeles and San Francisco and San Jose. So, in that way, we see like how important it became as a pioneer voice for these communities that, you know, it's like, oh, I'd like to learn more, you know, and it's like also, hey, there's this celebration, you know, this is happening in Japantown. Come on out. And so there's also this awareness building of what the community is and the larger city. And then, also, we always used to be asked, well, do you have to be Japanese to play the Taiko? And I think, you know, that, at the very beginning it was like, no, you don't. But please understand that we are kind of exploring ourselves, and it is a voice for the Japanese American experience. So, if you can be patient and understand that's what we're exploring, then yeah, come join San Jose Taiko and to be respectful of the tradition and the history of like what this community has gone through. >> Daniel Sheehy: San Jose Taiko is number three. What are the differences say between, say, what Sage Tanaka did and the San Francisco Bay Area in Keynata and Los Angeles and what you are all doing? And even looking today, hoping to get a little sense of you today and how things have evolved over the years, but how are things? Is everybody the same, with the same philosophy, or are there differences between? >> Roy Hirabayashi: No, there are differences in basic philosophy. Sage Tanaka, [inaudible] Taiko [inaudible] Joe, really, he was trained in Japan. He's an immigrant from Japan. So, he really had brought the Japanese traditional, folk traditional of styles, festival drumming to America, basically. And so, his style and form really kind of lies in that direction of playing. Keynata Taiko was based out of the Senshin Buddhist Temple with the Buddhist Church in Los Angeles, Central LA, and so Revo Muskodani [phonetic] and those folks really kind of focused on using the Taiko within the Temple in a religion and their activities around that. Still a bit more contemporary in a sense, but philosophically it's really around the ideas of the religion and the Temple. And so, when we started San Jose Taiko, as we mentioned, we came from a little bit more of a Japanese American and Asia American perspective, and realizing that we didn't have that kind of training that we were just trying to create our music based upon what we felt. So, it was really using a lot of other different ideas in order to create the music. And so, we feel that San Jose Taiko, we took more of a contemporary vein of looking at how to create our music and style. And so, when you look at music, the Taiko scene now you could probably trace it back to San Francisco Taiko, more traditional, to a little bit the Buddhist path that the Kenata Taiko took and then more the contemporary, which style that we've taken. In Japan, I feel that, and I'm not saying this to brag or boast, but I feel that what we've done here in the United States has really kind of influenced now what's going on in Japan. And although the Japanese Taiko folks feel they're more traditional in that sense, again, as PJ mentioned, this art form for us, this particular style only started about the early 1950's. And so, Taiko in the United States era, particularly has been running parallel to what's going on in Japan for about at least a good two-thirds of that life span of this art form. And so, with that, I think we've greatly influenced now what's happening in Japan as far as the Taiko scene, the Kumi-daiko scene where things that we were being criticized for early on, as far as using other instrumentation, we would bring in a cow bell and other rhythm patterns, and non-Japanese instruments. Now, it's used all over, especially in Japan. And just the rhythmic sense that we're doing, that we were doing early on is also being copied elsewhere all over. And so, it's interesting that I think Taiko in America has influenced who has gone now internationally because now you see Taiko very popular in Europe and Australia and Asia and other countries, and also South America. So, it's really gone way beyond what we experienced early on. >> Daniel Sheehy: So, [inaudible]. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Yeah. Actually, I wanted to say besides what you hear and see, you know, I think the three seminal groups that started, we were very distinct in our organization, and coming from like community organizing backgrounds or activism, we wanted to be very clear that we wanted some cooperation, a cooperative collective style of interaction in how we operated as a group. So, unlike a traditional Japanese adieu [phonetic] or school, where it's always popped down, there is really no lateral approach to that. So, that's what we were doing. We're just kind of making it a lateral, even way of people, inputting ideas, being creative, how do we share responsibility. So, I have to say that that kind of still remains very distinct. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Yeah, yeah, that's big, essentially. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Okay. In terms of quantity, okay, we got up to three. Where are we now in the United States, and then beyond the United States in terms of groups or however you want to express it? >> Roy Hirabayashi: Within, for the longest time, I was hearing about maybe 300 groups in North America, but someone corrected me recently saying that it's probably closer to 450 in North America alone. In South America now, Taiko has been so popular, it becomes real popular too the last 15, 20 years. So, there might be almost equal numbers to that extent. And as I mentioned, in Europe now, it's really, it's just amazing, and when countries were, even not [phonetic] the Taiko, this as an ensemble, it's springing up all over Europe. And so, it's really grown quite a bit outside of Japan basically. >> Daniel Sheehy: Does that include, you know, they're a sizeable Japanese communities in Brazil and Peru, for example, are those -- >> Roy Hirabayashi: Yes, important. They really started a lot, right. >> Daniel Sheehy: So, so far. Yeah. And PJ, you mentioned a while ago that a lot of people who are not of Japanese descent are interested in performing and are performing Taiko music. Can you tell us about that a little bit? Is that big, a little bit? Is it, or it must be special stories. >> PJ Hirabayashi: I think there's that flat line universal concept, and that's heart. So, you know, it doesn't matter where or what you are; it's just kind of an open door. Well, that's what we try to do, how to make Taiko accessible, and it's very interesting. I mean, there's no way of knowing how Taiko is growing or in what communities it's developing. Yes, there's a lot more non-Asian faces that are creating Taiko groups, and then it's very interesting to see a lot of non-Asian faces that are really promoting Taiko from Japan. And it's interesting to see the diversity of like people being inspired and influenced by the source of where Taiko is coming from. >> Daniel Sheehy: Mm-hmm. How American is Taiko? I mean, that's kind of a, ever fully dumb question. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Well, let me ask, how many of you know what sushi is. >> Daniel Sheehy: There you go. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Okay, right. Okay. So, that's what Tomakasin [phonetic] say from San Francisco Taiko [inaudible]. You know, Taiko will have hit the scene if Taiko becomes as ubiquitous as sushi. >> Daniel Sheehy: Well, it's pretty ubiquitous, as I said. >> PJ Hirabayashi: I think it is. Oh, and you don't, yeah, to hear in commercials, you know, very subliminally, on TV, you know; it's like it's already in compositions. >> Daniel Sheehy: Look, we have a couple of more pieces before we all adjourn here, but is it okay to ask the questions. People, who's in, somebody in charge, can we do that, given this? Yes. Oh, there's a microphone for people to ask questions. That's terrific. So, let's let Viah [phonetic] be our intermediary here. How's that? >> Thank you. You're talking about trying to find the uniqueness of Japanese for the experience to the Taiko drum and, as you mentioned, there are many Japanese in Brazil, and there's Samba there, and if anybody that came from another country and start playing the drums, they would play in their unique culture. What makes Taiko unique for Japanese? And I guess, specifically, the rudiments, the time signature, the collaboration in unison. You have to feel each other out while you're playing together. Maybe you can describe in regards to the Taiko style for Japanese in that experience for being Japanese. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Well, it's definitely changed over the years since, I guess, the Kumi-daiko styles kind of started. So, traditionally, especially when you talk about the festival drumming that goes on in Japan, rhythmically, it's pretty simple and pretty repetitive because basically they're accompanying a dance or that kind of form. And so it was [inaudible] Gucci in Japan that started the ensemble format, and he was the first to take a composition and write it using just Taiko for itself to kind of use those voices or the other instruments or having dance or other movement to it. And so, with that context, he started to really look at how to compose or create pieces within a way of where you're just hearing drums with different voices of different sites, tones, and whatever. And so, rhythmically, I guess, tradition, I guess, Taiko, when dancing or accompanying other things is pretty much standard for [inaudible] whatever. But now, I guess, in contemporary form, many groups are writing or composers are writing and other time signatures are just moving around. And so, for us in San Jose Taiko, we've been doing that for quite a while because we were highly influenced by the Samba, the Afro Cuban rhythms and things in a polyrhythmic sense, so we have pieces that are 7/4, 5/4, and other time signatures, and we try to actually move in and out of that. So, it's not a sense at all, so you're feeling you're just locked into that one but just being able to play in a different signature so that it feels more, you know, it feels pretty natural, in other words. So, but for a Taiko, traditional Taiko player, it's very unnatural, and so we then, again, early on criticized because we were told that our music was too complicated for the Japanese Taiko audience in general because we were just too layered on our rhythm patterns and taking it out of time signature of the straight 4/4. But whereas now, again, you're hearing that all over, and it's just very calming. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Perhaps another thing that's, it's musical; it is your energy. It's key or chee where in Japan, you would see that that's the main foundation of like why people come together, and I think that's what all Taiko groups strive to practice and also keep rooted. So, it's not taking the Taiko drum and making it just the instrument to have a different sound. It's like how do you really insert that respect and that energy. >> Daniel Sheehy: Thank you. Yes. One right here then. >> You may have answered this question before I arrived, and so I apologize. When I think of Taiko drums, I think of those great huge drums where you have to almost lie down in order to play them, and when I was upset, I was thinking, gee, I'd like to do that to get rid of some of my tensions. Is that part of the Japanese traditional Taiko, and now you've evolved in that? >> PJ Hirabayashi: Today's set is very special, again. [Laughing] [Inaudible] Taiko Group, we couldn't get this past security, so it had to be small drums. So, I'm sorry, no, no big drums today. >> But you did it? >> PJ Hirabayashi: Yeah, oh yes, yes. >> Daniel Sheehy: Do you have any videos on YouTube that people could find? >> Roy Hirabayashi: Well, yes. If you look to San Jose Taiko, YouTube, you'll see a lot of different videos of the different kinds of performances. A lot of are festival settings, but you'll see a lot of different drums and concert video too. Yes. >> Daniel Sheehy: Yeah. Yes. >> I just wanted to ask a question about the choreography movement. You obviously, when you do the celebration there are movements that you're doing. How does that relate to the rhythm? How do you compose or conceive those? >> PJ Hirabayashi: I think choreography became a very instantaneous connection for the expression of San Jose Taiko. Well, for myself, I also grew up as a dancer, tap, ballet, you know, but there's something, either the cellular, the muscle memory inside, you know, it's like that wants to groove almost before you become a musician. And so that's how San Jose Taiko was trying to integrate movement, a lot more so than what we saw from Japan happening. And since then, it's like I think people are influencing each other, and where can you take movement? How do you express? Yeah >> Roy Hirabayashi: Yeah. >> Daniel Sheeby: Pulse is the lighting, the whole state there's all sorts of -- Yes. Sorry. I committed to, back here next, yes. Sorry, and thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for being here. This is a good opportunity. PJ, a little while earlier, you mentioned that there were three extinct Japantowns in LA and San Jose and San Francisco. Would you say that the development of Taiko had an effect on the preservation of those? So, can you talk a little bit about that? >> PJ Hirabayashi: Yes. Absolutely. Well, because I think we're just so connected to San Jose Japantown, and our community is so supportive of us, they go, "You're the heartbeat of San Jose Japantown." And it's like, wow, I really feel that the presence of arts in general, you know, and to be a part of like all these celebrations during the year in Japantown kind of really elevated our prominence and exposure, our visibility, you know, that little kids want to play Taiko. So, it's like this new generation. It's like the seeding, right, and it's continuing. I mean, our little kids now are now married and have their own kids, and we're going, oh, no kidding. So, there's such pride and surprise, I would say, you know, to see that there's kind of like, wow, I never had that while growing up, as the silent no-esteem kid, you know, in kindergarten. Now, it's like these kids are just like flourishing with wonderful self-esteem. >> Daniel Sheehy: Is this a springboard into the Conservatory idea because this is something special? There are all kinds of ways to innovate. This is another way to innovate. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Right. Well, it sounds like Taiko has been working on this idea. Well, we've been doing a Conservatory concept for quite a while now. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Program wise. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Program wise, right. And so, we just feel we're trying to put it under one category roof of terminology in a sense, but really it's our outreach program, our master classes that we offer for college to other adults. So, it's a variety of classes, and our training program we have for our performing members. We feel we have probably one of the most vigorous training programs for a member to join San Jose Taiko that exists here in the US right now. And so, all of these things are part of what we consider as an important part of teaching Taiko and also spreading it to our performances, whether it's our concert programming o outreach program into the schools, our festival programming, and our touring that we do as an ensemble; and so, it's something that's been going on for a while. We're now on the verge of, actually, an important piece for us has been a physical site, and so we're now actually moving forward to building our own building, along with some other partners, so that at least we have a permanent rehearsal space. And so, we're just launching a capital campaign on that, so if anyone wants to support it. I know you probably understand what that means. >> PJ Hirabayashi: And it's happening in San Jose Japantown. >> Roy Hirabayashi: It's in San Jose Japantown, so we're very proud of that too, and we're partnering with several other arts organizations, but we look to have our own permanent space. Hopefully, within the next three to four years that'll be completed, so we've very excited. >> Daniel Sheehy: And having personally worked at the National Endowment for the Arts for 23 years as though having followed the San Jose Taiko and the Taiko in general, I expect that this dimension of giving to the community, of thinking bigger than music and performance was part of the reason that you were awarded the National Heritage Fellowship by the National Endowment for the Art as well. So, again, one more time, congratulations on that, and thank you. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Thank you. >> Daniel Sheehy: And there's a question here. Yes. >> Thank you. I was very interested, you know, you mentioned PJ, your background is in dance. Does someone who plays another instrument have a leg up if they decide they want to try Taiko, say, a pianist or a cellist, or does it matter? >> PJ Hirabayashi: I don't want to stereotype. But it's really interesting to see that people who say, "I'm a drummer," you know, trap drummer, I can do that; it's a different experience. It's like once you put the choreography in, oh, wow, my arm doesn't extend that far, and I can't do that many beats, you know. No, these all start from zero; in fact, that's what we do for training. No matter what experience you have when you come to San Jose Taiko, I'm sorry, you're going to have to strip to zero because we're going to just layer that training within, you know, layer by layer. >> Daniel Sheehy: So, part of our, you have one more question here? Yes. We want to hear a little more music, right? >> Yes. >> Daniel Sheehy: Yeah, okay. So, let's have another question. >> That's okay. Just -- >> I'm just wondering, you know, I'm from Indonesia, and we sort of regard our instruments as, I don't know, holy or sacred, or we have to respect them. Do you teach them to respect like you cannot step over it, and you don't put stuff on it? And people don't understand, you know, and so you always have to teach them. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Yes. There's the values that are integrated towards the practicing of Taiko, and just because Taiko itself is made out of three natural elements, wood from tree, hide from animal, metal tacks from earth, you know, just to really understand, wow, this is what's gifting us with this sound, and each sound has its own voice. How do you respect even that voice? Like this drum is like another person. How do you respect that drum as I can equally respect you? So, it's like looking at each as a living being. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Yeah >> I think, you know, lots of people don't, I think lots of people don't understand that, you know. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Thank you for asking that. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Yes. >> Daniel Sheehy: Thank you for that question and thank all of your for all of your questions, and you think you could lead us into what's going to happen now with the -- ? >> PJ Hirabayashi: [Inaudible] I think it's important. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Okay. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Yeah. We're going to play this one song actually from Japan. It's called Hutchi Jo [phonetic], and the reason why we want to play this is because Hutchi Jo is this very small island off the main island Hornshoe, not too far from Tokyo, and Hutchi Jo is regarded as an island of exile where they send political prisoners. And yet, people were exiled to this little island; it still flourished as their own community. So, just because you are "exiled" doesn't mean that you can still find beauty in life. So, they were able to take the Hutch Jo drum or create a Hutchi Jo drum, or a very small drum, where it wasn't used for art sake per se. It was there to celebrate, where people would just load up and get drunk at parties, and people just go up and they just play on the drum. And the reason why Roy and I really wanted to learn this piece is because we felt that it really kind of paralleled the Japanese American experience of during World War II. The West Coast Japanese, people of Japanese ancestry, were incarcerated into like ten different camps throughout the West. And although they were there for three years during World War II, their communities in these camps still were able to find beauty and flourish. And so, we're playing this kind of like that sense of freedom, sense of connection, and finding beauty in whatever conditions, like today. So, we're, I'm personally being challenged to play this because Hutchi Jo is usually on an up drum like this, and it's this high. So, if you see me whiffing at air, it's because it's a different style. [ Drum Performance ] [ Audience Applause ] >> PJ Hirabayashi: Are there any other questions? No. [ Audience Laughter ] >> Daniel Sheehy: Other than mine. Yes? Back here, we have a question. >> It was very beautiful. So, I'm originally from Los Angeles and, of course, I know Taiko drumming, especially at UCLA, it's very, very popular. They used to play underground in the parking lot when I was there 50 years ago. But now, I wanted to ask about storytelling with music and specifically with Taiko drumming. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Do you want? >> PJ Hirabayashi: You go. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Okay. So, with that context of how Taiko can be as storytelling, you know, we've worked with performance artists and theatre companies in that way, and so and actually, PJ has done a lot of work with Novo Kumiamodo [phonetic], who's based in Los Angeles, with Great Leap [phonetic], who's a great storyteller, dancer, singer. And so, actually, Taiko can be used in many different ways to accompany that kind of action and things. And we've been, I guess, adding to that in different, I guess, projects we've been doing more recently, whether it's storytelling, whether it's sensitive dance, like Bhutto dance, or storytelling within theatre, like working with Luis Valdez and some of its newest works that's going on from the L. Theatre Compasino [phonetic]. So, what we're trying to do is really how can the music or the voice of the Taiko be added on to what's happening in that context is something we're trying to do, and I think it's a great opportunity. We, personally, we'd like to do more of that, but it has been happening for quite a while. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Just one recent project that San Jose Taiko just did, and their developing it, so it'll come out again next year. It's a collaboration of three different groups, and it's San Jose Taiko, the Wesley Jazz Ensemble, and also Epic Immersion Theatre. So, this is just only last weekend that it was performed, and it was an immersive experience where the audience were told ahead of time, this is not a sit down concert, that you are going to be in the round and that actors are going to be coming in between you, and we also inspire you to dress up in 1940 vintage clothing because it was swing; it was a swing era. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Big Band Jazz. >> PJ Hirabayashi: Yea. Big Band Jazz, and so what the story was like Big Band Jazz was very prominent in these internment camps during World War II, and it was the, it was the activity of dancing and making music that people found substance and, you know, of living and living out their lives in camp. And so, it was really wonderful to see how it sparked off this energy of people getting up and dance when the Jazz Ensemble started to play, you know, and then interspersed with the dialogue to talk about what was happening where they had to decide and show allegiance; do I sign up or get drafted? You know, here I'm in camp, but how do I show my allegiance to America by serving the country. So, yes, I think we're also exploring and trying to find those ways to really empower the potential of what our arts can do. >> Daniel Sheehy: Well, you've certainly empowered me, and I think a number of people in this room today. So, PJ Hirabayashi and Roy Hirabayashi, thank you so much. >> Roy Hirabayashi: Thank you. >> Daniel Sheehy: For all you've done, [inaudible] [ Audience Applause ] >> This has been a presentation of the Library of Congress. Visit us at www.loc.gov