>> From the Library of
Congress in Washington, DC.
>> Helena Zinkham: I'd like
to welcome you to the Library
of Congress this afternoon,
an auspicious day in March.
I'm Helena Zinkham, Director
for Collections and also Chief
of the Prints and
Photographs Division.
So you know I have
a very special stake
in the proceedings
today, cheering Martha on.
The Prints and Photographs
Division is home
to a rapidly growing body
of work by women artists.
We are very grateful
to the Caroline
and Erwin Swann Foundation,
which has supported
these new acquisitions
and is also sponsoring
today's event.
Our program features
a conversation
with three acclaimed
women artists.
How about that, have you
been called acclaimed before?
I'm hoping.
We are celebrating both
women's history month
and the brand new publication
called "Drawn to Purpose"
by my colleague Martha Kennedy.
She'll be your moderator
today, a curator of popular
and applied graphic arts.
This opening slide show
loop gave you a glimpse
of the dazzling original
art created by women,
now represented all of it
in the library's collections
from vibrant drawings by our
panelists back into the 1800s,
often we think women whose names
you might never have heard,
but well worth becoming
acquainted.
Because the range of
topics that women address
and explore has broaden greatly
across this last 150 years,
a big point in the book to watch
how women and art have been able
to interact and be published,
be known to the world
far more publicly.
The fact that work by so many
women has been overlooked
and underrecognized
was the very thing
that motivated Martha Kennedy
to dive deep into research.
Starting almost a decade ago?
OK. She wrote the book "Drawn to
Purpose" with terrific support
from our publishing office
well represented today,
and also prepare the companion
exhibition currently on view
in the graphic arts gallery.
And I'll take a moment
to mention
that we hope you'll have
time to visit the show
after the panel presentations
and it is conveniently
located next to the gift shop
where you'll all be able to
acquire your very own copy
of "Drawn to Purpose"
signed by the author.
Martha has of course told me
what a special privilege it has
been to undertake
these dual projects
that celebrate women's
remarkable contributions
to both art forms,
illustration and cartoon.
She wants to thank her many
colleagues across the library
who have supported and helped
her complete this work.
It is now my honor to
introduce our speakers.
Barbara Brandon-Croft.
Would you mind just standing
briefly so we can all.
[ Applause ]
Barbara created the
groundbreaking comic
"Where I'm Coming
From" which ran
for 15 years from 1990 to 2005.
The first African-American woman
to have a nationally
syndicated strip,
she introduced an engaging cast
of black women whose
conversations brought topical
themes into the comics,
historical
and contemporary race
and gender issues.
She's also published two very
well received comic collections
and continues using
her artistic talent
by illustrating publications
that promote activism.
These include a guide
for black teen girls
and a recent anthology
called APB,
Artists Against Police
Brutality.
Whitney Sherman, we're
moving alphabetically.
[ Applause ]
Whitney is Director of the MFA
Illustration Practice Program
at the Maryland Institute
College of Art
in Baltimore, Maryland.
As a multifaceted award
winning illustrator,
she has created artwork
for national magazines,
corporations and book projects.
Some featuring narrative
content, others focused
on aspects of illustration
itself.
Whitney has recently co-authored
and edited a monumental
new book.
Listen to this topic,
history of illustration.
Sweeping, covering the range of
image making and print history
from around the world spanning
ancient to modern times.
We owe you a debt there I think.
Jillian Tamaki [applause].
In a short span of years,
Jillian has produced an
impressive volume and variety
of work that includes two
award wining graphic novels
in collaboration with
her cousin Marico.
A short story collection,
an award winning webcomic,
editorial illustrations for
newspapers and magazines,
book covers and now her
first children's book,
"They Say Blue".
Her weekly drawings of authors
that grace the New York Times
book review have included a
wonderful portrait of our
Librarian of Congress,
Dr. Carla Hayden, so we're
particularly grateful
in that area too.
Unfortunately Dr. Hayden is
not able to join us today.
She sends her regrets.
This is one of her favorite
topics, books and illustrations,
but she's been called away.
Martha Kennedy is stepping
in as our panel moderator
and Dr. Hayden's
message to the foreword
of the book is what
I've been asked to read
to you to represent her.
Dr. Hayden recalled being
a kid who read everything,
and personally I believe her.
She poured over the
illustrations just as much
as the accompanying
words, that's the key part.
She wrote in the foreword,
"Images make reading more
meaningful and more memorable."
I think at this point I'm going
to say take it away, Martha,
please come up to the stage
and we'll help you get
to the graphic arts gallery
at the end of the program.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
>> Martha Kennedy: Thank you
all so much for being here.
Can you hear me?
>> Sort of.
>> Martha Kennedy: Sort of?
OK. OK. Great.
Thanks so much.
And thank you, Helena,
for your opening remarks
and introduction.
I would also like to take this
moment to express my thanks
to my colleagues across
the library who have helped
and supported me in completing
these wonderful projects.
I feel so privileged to
have worked on the book
and the exhibit "Drawn
to Purpose".
Turning to our panelists, it is
an honor and a privilege for me
to moderate today's
conversation.
We look forward to hearing your
perspectives and your insights
into the arts of
illustration and cartooning
as wonderful creators
in these art forms.
I would like to begin by
asking each of you what is it
like to be an illustrator
and/or a cartoonist today.
Do you think the
playing field is equal?
Who would like to start?
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
That's absolutely--
>> Wait.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
With the new administration,
we have everything is solid.
Women are here.
No, we're not.
We're not equal.
We won't be and it's been a
long time when we really aren't.
I mean I think about how women
are born, we come here and only
to find out as we get older
that we're considered lesser.
You know, our points of
view aren't-- We under--
start to understand
that our points
of view aren't taken
as seriously or--
>> Louder.
Louder.
>> Martha Kennedy: Can you
hear or the [inaudible]?
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Holy molly.
>> Martha Kennedy: OK.
Great. Thanks.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Hello.
Hello. Can you hear me?
OK. So I just-- And my point
is that, that women are born
and we come here and
then we start to find
out that we are considered
lesser
and we're not taken
as seriously.
The older you get, the
more you find it out.
I mean it's as a kid, you know,
the voice are like suddenly
like no, we couldn't
play football
but you can do the cheerleading.
What? You know, you
are ready to play.
And we find out that if you want
to be heard, if you want to--
point of view to be heard, you
have to make yourself heard
and you have to be loud or--
and nobody likes a
loud woman, it seems.
So there's a lot of-- you
come to that realization
and honestly being a black
woman, you're less than lesser.
You know, you're
like least, you know.
You're not-- not only you're not
heard or you could be ignored,
you could be a suspect,
you know, there's,
there's so many things
that happen.
So know that playing
field isn't level.
I don't know when
that's going to happen.
>> Martha Kennedy: OK, OK.
Thank you.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Hello,
hello, can you hear me?
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Yeah.
>> Jillian Tamaki: OK.
And I got to-- OK, I'll
just hold this in case.
>> Martha Kennedy: OK.
>> Jillian Tamaki: So,
illustration does not--
in cartooning does
not exist in a vacuum.
It's a part of society
and to sort of answer
like why women are
devalued in society is
like a whole other
round table, I think.
But yeah, I feel like it's very
complicated illustration for me
and the way that I've conducted
my career has been very linked
to the industry of illustration
and mainstream publishing
and the publishing industry.
And that's-- it can be
really complicated, I've--
especially when I'm working
in [inaudible] comics
which is famously a very
male dominated little niche
of drawing.
But then now I'm in picture--
doing stuff with picture books
where that industry is, you
know, 90% female in terms
of the creators and the,
you know, the gatekeepers
and the booksellers, the
librarians and the parents
that are buying the books
and all those stuff.
It's still those issues
persist with who gets the awards
and who gets the
acclaim and money
and all these things
that trickle down.
So it's like-- it's even more
complicated than it seems
on the face sometimes.
But-- but yeah, I think identity
has become a very big part
of publishing and culture
at large now and so it's,
it's an evolving thing that I--
I feel strange-- I can feel--
I actually don't do a lot
of women in comics and women
in blankety blank
panels because I can feel
that it's bothering, you know.
It can feel like we talk
about we're OK with this stuff
as this sort of like separate
thing or it's safe to analyze it
within this like closed,
sealed off context.
But I always want to
until the day it comes
where I'm looking forward to
when it becomes more integrated
and we don't have
to have special days
and that would seem weird
because we're integrated
on a more daily level, so.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah, no.
Thank you.
Very powerful.
>> Whitney Sherman:
Pass the baton.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah, that's
kind of in our [inaudible] here.
>> Whitney Sherman: Neither one.
A lot of what I wanted to
say was already been said
but I wanted to really start
if I'd been the first person
to speak, I would have
said I was so glad
that you didn't say what is it,
is there a level playing field
for women illustrators.
Because I think when
we continue to label us
as women illustrators
rather than illustrators,
we already create
a division there.
We create a separate
category that is problematic.
And it becomes something hard.
It's not that we're not
women but we have to crawl
out of this hole that has been
developed by ostracizing that,
by labeling it that way.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
It's like an asterisk.
>> Whitney Sherman:
It is, yeah, yeah.
And it's what's really
curios too is as an educator,
I've been teaching part time and
full time for almost 30 years
and majority of my
students are women.
So when I look out into the
world, I see more men that are
out there, that are
namable that become
"the names" in the industry.
And I think a lot of it
does come out of not, not,
not having people that are
women that are illustrators
but by having art directors or
judges on panels or whatever.
Those are the arbiters
of who's going to be--
become a name or whose
work is going to be seen
in the publication
or in an annual.
And so because of that I think
that has to shift a little bit.
I think there is more of
an awareness of that now.
I think people are
being sensitive.
Maybe we have to go through
this period of identifying women
and talking about women for--
I mean they're only, you know,
it's like half the
planet, right?
I don't know why it's been so
invisible but maybe we have
to go through this little
phase in order for us
to not have to do it this way.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.
No, these are just very
thoughtful answers.
Would you be willing to say
that there's been some progress
in the last 20 years at all,
in certain areas for women?
>> Whitney Sherman: I would.
Yeah, I would say that
there is some progress.
We can look at things like
the director of the Society
of Illustrators is a woman.
The majority of the presidents
of the Illustration Conference
which is the only conference
that's national that's
for illustration, the majority
of the presidents
have been women.
So there are people that
are in leadership roles
that in these things that
are-- it's contemporary.
It's in the last 15--
maybe it's even 10 years--
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.
>> Whitney Sherman: --
that it's different.
So there are role models for
women that are coming up that--
that can look at that and say,
well, that's possible to do.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.
There are a few.
And we now have--
>> Whitney Sherman: We just made
that other president
to be a woman.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah,
no, that's interesting.
We have the art editor of
the New Yorker is a woman
and the new cartoon editor.
So there are some-- a few
encouraging signs too.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
I mean in comics
and I mean I mostly
travel and independent
in the old comics or whatever.
But when I started 15 years ago,
it was just like so different
in terms of, well, now it's like
the market for like YA comics
and kid comics and stuff like
that has just like burst forward
and I think all the most
like prominent people doing
that are like-- like [inaudible]
like the apex of all of that
and her work is like
love by girls and boys
and like that's extremely
encouraging, of course.
Then you have other issues
with how identity becomes
this marketable thing
and all these other
things but it's--
that has changed so
much since I started.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah,
and that's one area.
And yet you look at the
comics pages in newspapers
and it's better online but--
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Definitely online.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
I mean for me you know,
so many years ago to be
the first black woman
in the mainstream press, in
the newspapers, that was big.
But also by me being
the first black woman
in the mainstream press, in
newspapers, I was the only one.
And I was kind of-- you think
you're breaking the door now
so more can come in, but you're
really like clogging the door,
you know, because you're there.
And it's like, OK, I
will hold on to this.
It's like they can and
then-- but I've been--
you know, I haven't
done it since 2005.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: And
there has not been somebody
who is recognized a black woman
cartoonist for the newspaper,
but newspapers are
dying clearly.
But it's true, it's been.
So, it's hard for me
in my specific area
of doing this to see progress.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
But that's a downer, sorry.
>> Martha Kennedy: No.
Yeah [laughter].
>> Jillian Tamaki: I
think that as a result,
like webcomics have been
so embraced by women
because it's there's like you
can just skip to like directly
to your audience, right?
And then think that that's now,
if you go to the [inaudible]
small press expo here outside
of in Bethesda, Maryland,
it's like you see
that gradually changes,
like more women then--
they build there
audience by themselves
and clearly there is this
like appetite for it.
And for racialized women as
well and so you don't have
to necessarily go through
these mainstream channels
to like get your work
out and then there's this
like reverse thing of like,
now, the mainstream wants
that thing, it's like just--
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Right.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
-- turn around.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
It's topsy-turvy.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
No, that's great.
Good points.
I mean, this leads me
to another question.
Could you comment on the
impact of social media
on work in both fields?
You, you know, what do
you think about that?
>> Jillian Tamaki:
I think about--
>> Martha Kennedy: Positive
and negative [laughs].
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Oh, me?
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
So, it's for all three of you.
Just love to hear what you--
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
You know,
social media is a
strange bird, you know.
And I am older, so it's even
stranger to me because it's new.
So it's not all good but
there are some good points.
It does help create
communities that are supportive.
You know, you can-- I can every
once in a while feel compelled
to do a strip and I can
put it on my Facebook page.
I actually have one.
And I can get such
a positive response.
So like do it again
Barbara, you know,
we need to hear these girls.
You know, let's hear
these black women talk,
and it's just very encouraging.
So while it is a
weird kind of thing,
it does create certain
communities
and it does help bring
like minded people
together to make points.
Even if we're just patting each
other on our backs, you know,
it kind of feels good
because that's a community.
It's a community,
yeah, yeah, yeah.
>> Jillian Tamaki: I mean--
>> Whitney Sherman:
Yeah, there's--
Well, I was going to say
that most illustrators--
I can't speak for cartoonists
but I imagine it's very
similar, we work by ourselves.
And so, unless you're going
out and you're teaching
and you're getting
yourself exposed to people
in a work situation, majority
of your time you're spending
by yourself and so social media
adds a layer of connectivity,
that's really helpful.
You get to see what
other people are doing,
or tell them what you think
about what they are doing.
The other side of it too is
that there have been
quite a few places
where women have gotten
beaten up in social media,
and other places where
they can find refuge.
There's some private Facebook
groups where people can--
women can talk about
what's happening with them.
They can talk about whether they
think they're getting paid less
or whether somebody is bullying
them or other, you know,
other topics that are
distressful and you need
to find support somewhere.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah
>> Whitney Sherman: Yeah.
So it's like everything,
it's got two sides.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Right.
Right.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah, I think
that that social media has
brought a lot of different kinds
of people to illustration
and comics and that was very,
very much needed because it is--
I feel like when it started,
it's very predominantly
white male and straight
and like now I feel
it's really expanded.
And I-- I used to owe--
When I started I really
linked illustration
with this commercial aspect.
It's like you're not an artist,
you're working with your--
with a client, you
know what I mean?
And like you're creating
a product.
And now, I feel like
I can't sit anymore.
I feel like it's become this
much more nebulous thing
that actually-- because
it's brought
in all these different people,
you really question some
of the power structures
around it like how it moves
and they're not necessarily--
They think about it in a really,
really different way and it's--
but it can be really scary,
some of these stuff with the--
being a woman on the internet is
like just kind of a
scary place sometimes.
But I can't imagine
my career without it.
I graduated in 2003 like
right at the start of it
and I just don't think
that would be where I am
without continually sharing
online and you're never supposed
to say that like audience
reaction affects your work
or whatever.
But like I feel totally--
because I know a lot of
my audience is women,
like that's where
you can connect,
especially with young
women, teenagers, right,
that that's where they are.
So I found it like a very--
I can't separate the two.
I wouldn't want to either.
You know, it's good and the bad.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.
>> Whitney Sherman: There's a
little bit of a democracy too
in that someone can have
connection to the internet
and look at things through
social media, and not have
to have the money to buy a book.
So they might like Jillian's
work or Barbara's work
and they might not be able
to afford that book or get
that book but they can
appreciate their work
through social media
that they're on anyway.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
But on the flipside of that,
we haven't figured out
how to get paid either.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Right.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
You know,
like you don't know how
to make money from--
>> Martha Kennedy: I hear you.
I hear you.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: --
putting your stuff out there.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
You know,
it's like there's
not a clear road.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
And illustration has--
because of this like become
so incredibly popular.
Like when I started, I feel like
it was for like nerds that want
to do like airbrush, like
shiny metal and stuff.
But it's like completely
like evolved to this other--
sorry, I can't remember what
I was going to say, but--
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
That's OK
>> Jillian Tamaki: I got like
distracted by like talking
about nerds, right [laughter].
Yeah.
>> Not getting paid.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Not getting paid.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
About not getting paid.
Right.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Jillian Tamaki: So you-- And
thank you from the audience.
So, not getting paid.
You-- that you-- and of--
There is this like economy of
like likes and stuff like that
and I think that--
one thing I've heard
about this is what
sort of directly
to women on the internet.
I kind of feel like
sometimes you need
to present an image, right?
Not like really values the young
woman, the woman that is willing
to sort of put her
appearance online,
you know when I always was
very-- when I was starting out,
I really felt like I tried very
hard to keep all my images,
like all images of
myself off the internet.
>> Martha Kennedy: I
hear you, I hear you.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Because I
didn't want my image linked
to my work.
I wanted my work just to stand
on its own and stuff like that.
And I have heard that in
recently some young women feel
that's not a possibility.
You need an attached image to
it, and an attached like persona
and personality and like brand.
And like-- I feel like that's
really complicated, you know.
>> Martha Kennedy: Mm-hmm.
Yeah. No. That's fascinating.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Thank you.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
[ Laughter ]
All right.
Turning to a slightly
different but related topic,
could you share observations
or insights
about women in these fields?
From your experiences as
teachers or being on panels or--
have you benefited
from teaching?
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Teaching.
>> Martha Kennedy: And doing--
because I know that
two of you have taught.
I know that, yeah.
>> Whitney Sherman: I've been
teaching for a long time.
>> Martha Kennedy: A long time.
>> Whitney Sherman: And
when I first started--
Well, I'll go back
just a little bit more
and give you a little
bit of story.
When I graduated in college,
somebody said to me, oh,
do you think, you know,
do you want to teach?
And like I said, there is
no way I want to teach.
Why would I want to teach?
I want to do stuff.
And I think that time too was--
you wanted to get out there.
You wanted to build
your portfolio.
You want to get more clients.
That's what you wanted to do if
you want to be an illustrator.
And so, that's what
I wanted to do too.
But over time, what I found was
that it gets a little
lonely sometimes.
So you have to find diversion,
get away from the four
walls that you're in.
And I think a lot of
women do have studios
in their homes for
whatever reason.
I did because I was a parent and
I had a small child and I wanted
to be able to do
that and do my work.
But I also wanted to kind of
connect out with other people.
And so, someone I knew asked me
to do a workshop on putting to--
and this is when I was actually
doing graphic design as well.
To do comps, show students
how to make comprehensives
which are-- these
are put together--
This is pre-digital world
for anybody that's under 30.
Pre-digital world where if you
were do-- going to do a design,
you put it together,
you mocked it
up to show your client what
it was going to look like.
And so I did this workshop
and I was like really charged
up over this idea that I
had stuff that I had done.
And I could put that
together in an organized way
and I could transmit it
to a bunch of students
that were eager to
get that information.
And it made me feel like I had
this other value beyond what I
was generating.
So I'm building my career,
right, but I'm also able
to push back some things, push
back some value to others.
And so, that kind of got
me hooked on doing it.
And then over the years I was
picking up part time work just
as a dimension to
my studio work.
And then in 2000-- in
2000 I was recruited
to lead the undergraduate
department
at MICA in illustration.
And I wasn't sure.
I had a really vital
studio business.
It was something that I really
had to think long and hard about
but I felt like there was
some-- it was a challenge,
it was a good challenge for me.
So I did that for ten years
and started a master's program
and we're in year eight.
I think it's successful.
So, what do I get out of
teaching is I get to get
out of my house and my studio.
But beyond that it's
that same exchange,
it's that same bringing value
to other people's lives,
sharing things that
I do and that I love
that are meaningful to me.
And to raise up people that
are interested in learning.
I think there's nothing
better than this relationship
of you giving something to
someone else then valuing it
and then doing something
with that.
And that to me that's
what teaching is.
>> Martha Kennedy: OK.
Yeah.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Plus you get
to like-- like see what's cool.
>> Whitney Sherman: Yeah, right.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
Like coming out, like--
So it wasn't just like-- I don't
teach right now but I taught
for a long time in New York and
you'd see like stuff percolating
in them and then it would be
like in the broader culture,
like a year-- two years
later, something like that,
because they're like
cool art students.
But, yeah, I don't teach now.
It's all the same.
I mean it's incredibly
gratifying
to see them grow as people.
It's a formative time, right.
They're like little babies
when they start and then
by end they're like adults,
and it's really a privilege
to help somebody on that.
I did feel like in the
end it can get tricky
because it's this-- especially
New York Arts School are very,
very expensive, and then you're
into this realm of student loans
and it's-- it becomes this very
incredibly verified experience.
So like that's talking--
We haven't really talked
about intersectionality a lot
in this discussion, but like
that becomes a part of it too.
>> Martha Kennedy:
Actually, yeah.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
With accessibility,
and that was like-- that's
a changing thing that like--
that process that-- or the time
that I was teaching,
I saw more--
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Jillian Tamaki: -- more
of that stratification.
>> Martha Kennedy: That's--
yeah, that's a very good point.
Yeah, that's great.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
I did--
I was able to do some workshops.
>> Martha Kennedy:
Workshops, great.
Good.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Yes.
So when you said, I was
like, yeah, I did do that.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yes.
Yes.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: And
it was the Queens Library.
When I was doing the strip,
the Queens Library had--
I was very popular in
February and March.
I would get calls, and we
have got a black cartoonist
coming in.
We got a woman cartoonist
coming in.
And all the time it
would be young kids
that would come-- I
shouldn't say that.
Because it was sometimes there
were older people, you know,
retired people who wanted to sit
among the eight-year-olds and--
because they also wanted
to have this fun little
cartooning class.
And it was, you know, it
was really basic, you know,
how you can make faces out of
shapes and, you know, really,
really basic or-- And then--
then I would give them all like
a line, just a little sentence
and have them create a
strip to go along with it.
Which is really-- They came
up with some really
crazy incredible things,
these little kids.
So, I think what I got
from it was also being able
to encourage these little
ones and also you recognize
that you can learn
from everybody.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
You know, it doesn't matter
who it is, you know, it
could be the older gentleman
who is a little embarrassed
to be sitting there
with all these kids and makes
a comment about, you know,
I think-- I'm like, you know,
that's a good point, you know,
so you can-- You really
can learn from everyone.
>> It's true.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: So I
think that's what I get at it.
That's what I got out of it.
>> Martha Kennedy: That's
great, that's wonderful.
Thank you.
Yeah. All right, here is another
sort of general question.
How or why deserving work
by women illustrators
and cartoonists matter?
Do you think a sense
of shared history
in these fields can help
motivate and inspire established
and rising artists,
especially women?
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: I'm
going to start talking again.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
Yeah, you go first.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
That because I, you know,
I thought about these
questions and I thought
that was particularly a good one
because that's kind
of what we do.
You know, it's like as
illustrators, as cartoonists,
as artists, as singers and
whatever we do, we are like kind
of you observe what's
going on, you interpret it
and then you record it,
you know, and that's--
I got that from my dad.
It's like that's a good point
then, that's what we do.
So we're-- in a certain sense
we are recording history.
So for folks down the line
who come back and look
at what we've done-- Because all
of our work is informed
from-- by our experiences.
And so you have a way of putting
down what was happening
during this time.
And, I mean, I was fortunate
enough to have my first book--
Have Ruby Dee and Ossie Davis do
the foreword for my first book,
and one of the things they
mentioned was that they felt
that my strip should go in a
time capsule and that years
from now folks are going
to open it up and say,
get a real understanding
of what the experience
of being a black
woman in America was.
And I was like, well,
that's heavy.
And it's, you know, it's
like it's really kind of--
it's good and it's true.
So it's being able to take
a look at what's going on
and being able to
understand that this is the--
everybody who expresses
themselves are
from their experiences.
And we are-- it's very
important to keep track of it
and get a chance to look
at it and understand
because that will
inform later generations
with their lives, you know.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: From
what our experiences have been.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah, I
think like history is not
like what happens,
like how it's told,
you know, something like that.
Like I'm sure there's a more
elegant way of saying that.
But I mean, there
is a reason why we--
the [inaudible] is the way it
is and it looks the way it is
and that's like conscious
and unconscious
as to how it's shaped.
So I think like we-- you need
to like aggressively reshape it.
As much as I can't wait for
the day that like it feels
like embedded and ingrained in
it like in a more natural way,
I think you have to actually
put effort into it and like--
and be more intentional,
you know, and aware.
And I think people are demanding
that and people see that now.
And I go like the consciousness
has like risen so--
like rose so much in
the last like five years
or something like that.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: I was
going to say five days even.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
And like even just like
the younger students
and younger creators are so
much, they see it as a whole now
and they see the way like
it all works in a way
that I was completely
naive to when I started.
So there's a lot
more questioning
of those structures
and-- And then--
And I think it's very
powerful like I have
to remember being
younger on-- and like I--
looking around myself and seeing
like I'm mixed but identify
as like Asian-American and
it's like you're looking
around constantly,
you know what I mean?
And like you're looking
for evidence of yourself
and yourself reflected back,
and it's very, very powerful
when you find that, especially
when you're a young person.
So, I'm aware of that
too, that like sometimes
that more intentional effort,
if that's what it results
in then so be it, you know.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Whitney Sherman: Yeah, I
can completely agree with that,
that I think there's
been a great turnaround
in more recent years,
because if you look
at what women were doing at the
beginning of the 20th century,
the type of work they were
doing, they were stratified
into women's subjects,
whatever those might be.
And that they were
reflecting out the magazines--
and magazines were emerging.
Magazines that were coming out
for women were reflecting a kind
of life that was supposed
to happen, this ideal life
of what a woman should be doing
and how she should
be a homemaker,
a good mother, and whatnot.
And I think those
reflections, those images
that are made are reflecting
out to not just women
but to the world.
What is expected and if that's
changing if that's different
and it's reflecting out
these different ideas
and different ways of living
and thinking and being,
that can change society.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
No, that's great.
Yeah, thank you.
This really, I think, leads well
into my next question, which is,
women have made contributions
to these art forms
that men probably would
not have, in fact,
probably definitely
would not have.
Can you imagine a male
counterpart creating some
of the works that you and
other female artists have made?
And can you give a few examples.
Just briefly, you know,
describe or mention?
>> Whitney Sherman:
Marjane Satrapi who wrote
about her experience being
in Middle East, being a woman
in the Middle East, I think
would have been impossible
for a man to do.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: I--
because my strip was
a collection of women
and that's all that was
in the strip was women
and it was black
women in particular.
Can I imagine a man
doing what I did?
No.
>> Martha Kennedy:
No [laughter].
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: No.
As a matter of fact I-- my--
I was in a bunch of papers
but I wasn't in this--
my New York area,
and I think the closest paper
may have been to Baltimore Sun
or maybe Philadelphia
something, but I wasn't--
I've lived in Brooklyn
and-- so nobody knew--
I'd say I'm a cartoonist and--
but nobody knew what
my strip was,
so I would explain what it was.
I have a strip.
It's a weekly strip, it's all
women, it's all talking heads,
it's all black women, oh men.
You're just going to
take another opportunity
to put the black man down.
I'm like, wait, wait, wait.
How can my point of view, just
because it's a black woman--
a woman speaking means that
it's anti-men and how--
and likewise, how is being
pro black be an anti-white?
It's not. It's a perception.
And if somebody, if a guy were
to see it and I got letters say
that they have a problem
with a strip that I've done,
my point to the guy
would be, let's see,
you probably have
more of a problem
with your mirror because--
>> Martha Kennedy: Yes [laughs].
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
And if you can't--
if you have trouble with her
observations in what she has
to say, then look into
yourself because it's--
it's her observations of
your life and if that's--
if you see yourself and
you're getting upset,
that's not my issue, you know.
But for-- to see a man do
specifically what I did,
that can happen.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Jillian Tamaki: It looks like
that's like part of the thing
of also like you can't
be a whole person.
You need to be like woman
or Asian woman or whatever
and like you're just supposed
to like exist in that sort
of static identity and
not have like complex
like feelings of stuff.
So, yeah, I don't know.
I mean I guess my work has
always been sort of like--
you know, when I started
like I know I got a lot
of female topics like
you've got pigeonholed into.
She's really great,
like that was her--
that's her topic,
is girls and women.
And like anytime-- I
feel like for a while
like if anything horrible
happened to like a woman
from these newspapers,
like some story
with like something
horrible to like a girl
and it's like, call Jillian.
Like she is like-- She's really
good with that kind of topic.
So it's like it's interesting
that your value, you're glad,
that you can like present that
really empathetic point of view
but then it's like you
can get [inaudible].
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
So much more.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
That I'm so much more.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
Yeah, for sure, so.
>> Martha Kennedy:
And I think all
of you show that in your work.
I mean you really-- the range
of subjects that you cover
and issues, you know,
it's fantastic.
To me that shows progress, sort.
Did-- And did you-- I'm sorry.
>> Whitney Sherman: I don't
think I ever got pigeonholed
on women's topics per
se but I got pigeonholed
in depressing topics like
depression or divorce
or you know, murder [laughs].
She's really good at that.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
It's like [inaudible] her.
Yeah, yeah.
>> Whitney Sherman: So, but
it gave me an opportunity
to put women in there, you know,
the more interesting
to draw women.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Yeah.
>> Whitney Sherman:
Don't you think?
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
I think, yeah.
>> Whitney Sherman:
Yeah [laughter].
I do.
>> Jillian Tamaki: I just
like to speak one more thing
on like the race
thing too, like it--
sometimes it can feel like
when you're working in some
of these spaces that the like
publishers or the editors
or whatever are right in your--
a person of color that like
it can feel that you were OK
like up to this boundary
line of like your experience.
And like it's, oh, you don't
cross that experience then
like we're all good and
we love it and we love you
and then like-- but
like don't push that.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Don't go too far.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yup.
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Yeah.
Yeah. And for me-- and again is
when newspapers were doing well
when I started and all
the editors who were going
to be white men who were going
to either pick up your strip
or not and I would get--
We already have Cathy.
We don't need where
I'm coming from.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: What?
But similarly, my dad, 30 years
before, had a strip, Luther,
and they say we already
have, you know,
[inaudible] we don't
need Luther.
And it's like, but you can
have Heathcliff and Garfield.
What? [Laughter] How was that?
How was that?
You know the cats.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Plural:
But you got black
representation,
you got a woman represented
and that's, that's all.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
We've done our--
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Plural: We've done our--
>> Jillian Tamaki: Take--
like tick box, yeah, for sure.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Right,
so we're in good
standing, yeah, so.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
It's great.
>> Jillian Tamaki: I wasn't even
counting how many dog strips
there are.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Plural: Oh yeah.
That's the thing exactly.
Exactly.
>> Martha Kennedy: OK, we-- oh.
>> Are you set, Martha?
>> Martha Kennedy: Are we set?
Yeah. I think-- Did, I think
you've done a great job--
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Thank you.
>> Martha Kennedy: -- answering
all these questions that I have
and I think it's
time to open up--
>> Helena Zinkham:
Exactly right--
>> Martha Kennedy: --
questions to the audience.
>> Helena Zinkham: We
have one small reminder.
We welcome your questions, so
please, join the conversation
but realize that if you
do ask the question,
you will automatically
become part of the webcast,
which we will place in YouTube
and make us publicly available
as possible because
libraries' are all
about sharing information
widely and widely.
So, yes, we open
it to the floor.
Thank you.
There are microphones on either
side that will come around.
>> Megan: Hi, my name is Megan.
I'm a librarian here at
the Library of Congress,
particularly interested
in making sure
that the library collects
materials by women
and about women for
the collection.
So, I'm just wondering
if you have any,
you know what librarians
like me can do to make sure
that your voices are
represented or that things
that are important to you are
represented moving forward,
because I want to make
sure that those gaps
that we have previously
don't exist anymore.
So, if you have any thoughts on
that, I would like to hear that.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
And I totally-- I am in
concert with Megan on that, so--
>> Whitney Sherman: You
approved that question [laughs].
>> Martha Kennedy: I
totally, it's great.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Could
I-- Could I answer that?
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Please, sure.
>> Whitney Sherman: So that
would be really interesting is
maybe for you to talk about what
the collection does collect.
Like what is the
collection, what is Library
of Congress interested
in collecting.
Just prints, are you interested
in-- I mean you and I, Martha,
have talked about this
difficulty of digital prints
and how they are original
but not really originally.
The original is the digital file
and how do you maintain
digital files.
Do you keep a Giclée
print in there?
I think one of the pieces
you've got of mine--
>> Martha Kennedy:
From you, it's a--
>> Whitney Sherman: --
it's a digital print because
it was made on a computer.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
>> Martha Kennedy: No.
That is definitely an area that
we're working on right now.
I would say we're in sort
of a state of transition.
We do a have a web comic archive
that Megan has been very active
in building, developing
and but I guess--
>> Whitney Sherman:
What about zines?
Sorry to interrupt.
>> Martha Kennedy:
What about zines?
We do have zines.
We do have some.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
What's a zine?
I don't know what that is?
[Laughter]
>> Jillian Tamaki:
Like a small photocopy.
Yeah, like the--
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Handmade
little mini comic pick up.
>> Megan: Just to
add to that, we--
through our small
press expo collection,
we actually are working
with some
of the smaller self-published
cartoonists and the illustrators
who are working now but we
are also working to build
out an actual zine collection
which broadens the scope
to not just comics and
illustration but more, you know,
literature, and criticism
and other things.
So, that's a work in progress.
>> Jillian Tamaki: I was going
to say the thing-- seem--
I think that like even
apart from digital prints,
so the stuff just lives on-- And
so much stuff just lives online.
That's like all where it lives.
You know what I mean like--
And so, it's tough
because you have this--
for example, LGBTQ
plus like a lot
of that content is
on Tumblr, right?
Like if Tumblr then decides
to like shut down or whatever,
like not host that
stuff anymore,
that stuff just like
totally gone.
So, I think like these
digital collections and I know
that they do it with
SPEx2 but I think like--
I read a little bit like
what [inaudible] does,
with like the new museum
in New York where they're
like digital-- they're like
old GeoCities things like--
I think that that's really where
the grassroots of like comics is
and increasing the
illustration as well.
Like Instagram is
just like this--
That's where it's happening.
You know what I mean?
And I think that your-- A lot
of those people will not end
up going on to be the famous.
Some of them will but like
some of them-- or most of them,
the vast majority of
them are not going to.
But like that I think is
like really the pulse of like
where people are creating now.
And it's that more
accessible space
than printed published work
too that's super fascinating.
>> Martha Kennedy:
And, yeah-- Yeah.
All right, so a certain
amount of web crawling
and acquiring of digital files.
I mean that's something
that we're working on.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Yeah.
>> Whitney Sherman: Yeah
>> Martha Kennedy: And you know,
we've got beginnings going,
good beginnings in
webcomics, especially.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: And
talking to other illustrators.
I mean I know some black
women, you know, cartoonists
and illustrators and,
you know, that perhaps,
you know, like just talking.
I'll talk.
Yeah. But just talking to
people who are in the field,
they can hit you to somebody
else that's also doing it.
Yeah.
>> Martha Kennedy:
There are also,
I would say some artists
working in these fields in kind
of a hybrid way too
and collecting their work is not
only straightforward, you know.
Political cartoonists
for example,
a lot of them still do drawing,
add color digitally,
abandon that.
We have a couple of editorial--
a political cartoonist in the
audience here and so, yeah,
there's a lot still to do.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
Even right now,
especially like illustrate--
because like the weight of--
it's easier to make a book, it's
easier to make a printed T-shirt
or make a button or whatever.
Like all this stuff is just--
it's this whole different way
of being an illustrator now
and like selling your stuff
directly online and so it--
do you have then collect
objects, you know, of all these
like screen for the tote
bags like maybe, maybe that's
like this big part
of illustration now.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
And on the other hand
though it is nice
to have high quality
prints, archival prints so,
they give you a sense of
the sampling of a, you know,
up and coming or award winning
illustrator now, you know.
Other questions?
Yeah.
>> This question is for Barbara.
Barbara, I really
enjoyed your strip
when it was being syndicated
and I just wander could you talk
about why you gave it up?
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Because I stopped being paid.
Basically, with newspaper comic
strip, the way it works is you--
the newspapers pay the syndicate
and the syndicate gives you
a portion of what gets paid,
so you can-- You'll have a
contract with a syndicate
that will say, if you go below
a certain number of papers,
you have-- You can say I'm
done or we can say we're done.
And to Universal Press' credit,
they kept me on a long time
when they could have dropped me.
I think they felt a
certain kind of, you know,
they needed me [laughter].
I mean, you know, so they can
say we have the black woman,
you know, and that's really
good because they really needed
to be able to say that and so--
But as newspapers
started declining--
And when I first started in, you
know, the early '90s, you know,
'90, they-- Universal
Press sent out a letter
to all their creators
and said, you know,
newspapers are on the decline.
And so not only-- it's
the same strip that goes
out to every newspaper but
if the circulation is larger
for newspaper, you
get paid more.
So when circulations go down and
newspapers start dropping off,
then paychecks gets smaller
and then they think, oh,
it's not worth it,
you know, all the work
and energy to keep just.
So, it was a certain time
when I was doing the strip
that I started also
doing other gigs.
You know, it's like I've
got to do some other things
to keep my life going so I, you
know, worked in other areas.
>> What did you do?
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Many things [laughter].
But what I did, it
seems like I stayed
in publishing for a lot of it.
But I also did fashion
stuff and--
but like I've been
at Parents Magazine
for a hundred years now.
I mean, that was-- I see
somebody I used to work
with [laughs] but--
and that for so long--
and I'm the research director
there, but how did that happen?
You-- well, you're a-- And they
don't know I'm a cartoonist.
They're like, oh, you have
such nice handwriting.
I was like, thank you [laughs].
Thanks. So that's how it goes.
>> OK.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft: Yeah.
>> Martha Kennedy: OK.
Another question.
>> Denise Lauder: Hi.
I am Denise Lauder [assumed
spelling], longtime friend
of Barbara's but I've
wanted to ask all of you
if today's climate especially--
well, we'll start with
the younger generation
here [laughs].
But someone who is
using the online medium
and I really think you
could go back, Barbara,
and do what you do online.
They're business models
for something like that.
My son is making money
and I don't know what
in the heck is [inaudible]
[laughter].
I'm off topic.
Does today's climate, you know,
politics and the vitriol that's
on the internet affect
or impact--
you know, what is on the
internet or not affect
or impact the work that
you and the words--
the pictures that you want to
draw and what you want to say,
does it diminish it or
does it fire you up?
>> Jillian Tamaki: I think
that that it totally has
and I think that there is this--
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
Fired you up?
>> Jillian Tamaki: Well, I think
that it has impacted for sure.
Like I think that
now illustrators--
especially because you're
responding in real time
and it feels like
almost distorted
to then post a nice
picture of a flower
when a school shooting
has happened, right.
So like I think that there--
because illustrators and
cartoonists are so much
in dialog with our audience,
it's very intimate relationship.
Like in a weird way you're
like you're kind of--
it can be tough because you
end up being like if you feel
like you're entertaining for
free or you're like some sort
of like online buddy to like
30,000 people or whatever.
And so I think-- and I
think that now because a lot
of the people that
really infuses new energy
into illustration are
younger and more political
and more diverse, I
think there is a demand
to question and comment.
And it doesn't exist
in a vacuum.
I think that that increasingly--
it feels very out of
touch if somebody thinks
like their work is not
connected to the world
and it doesn't respond to
the world, then I think some
of that is the current
fashion of thinking as well
but I don't-- I kind of
agree, you know what I mean?
It doesn't exist in a vacuum and
if you don't respond that means
that you're privileged enough
to not have to respond, so yeah.
>> Martha Kennedy: Or
maybe you just want
to be a little more thoughtful--
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
>> Martha Kennedy: --
before you respond.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
That will be novel.
>> Jillian Tamaki:
Yeah [laughter].
>> Barbara Brandon-Croft:
The whole world.
>> We have time for
one more question.
We've got a gentleman here.
>> Sorry. Hi.
So there's some really
great hashtags trending
on Twitter right now for women
in illustration and kidlit women
and part of that is also a big
conversation about, you know,
the kidlit industry is--
there's a lot of women working
in that industry, right,
and even in that very,
very high levels but there are
still some inequality in terms
of the awards, especially
in the illustration side.
I'm just wondering if you
have any particular thoughts
about that conversation and
just to make sure people know
about these hashtags
because there's a lot
of great stuff being promoted.
Kidlit women and
women in illustration.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Yeah.
I mean-- well, I have a
new picture book out so I'm
like sort of thinking
about this and running
in that circle a lot right now.
And it's again, like I sort
of said at the beginning,
it's fascinating because it's
a matriarchy in some ways.
But some of those
persistent problems,
it's just when powers starts
like coming into it for example.
I am super interested to know
that, you know, a lot of young,
hot, attractive men
get these are perceived
to get ahead in this way.
And you're just like
that's so disappointing
that that is just a flip of
like this power thing [laughs].
But it's-- again, a lot of it
is tied into any other industry
like what-- like of me too.
You know, it's like kids that's
having this me too moment
and people are somehow shocked.
But it's an industry,
it's money, it's power,
it's influence, it's
fame, all these things.
And once you've put that into
the mix, it's like all the--
Those patterns just recur.
But I don't know, it's-- I think
that sometimes this is a very
like nebulous industry.
It's like how do
you become popular?
How do you get a book deal?
How do you become
book to do speaking?
How do you-- Where
do you get invited?
All these becomes just like--
and it's like there's
a lot of socializing
and there's a lot of, you know--
that's how the industry of
publishing kind of works
and that can favor certain
types of people and then
and it all gets like
kind of gray zoned.
There's a lot gray zone
in a lot of publishing.
Maybe that's all industry
but that gray zone can be really
frustrating because you have
to be able to navigate
it, to thrive and then
but also to stay sane, so.
>> Whitney Sherman: I was going
to say hashtags are great.
It's a great way to find stuff
if you're looking on the web
or on social media but
in a way it's endemic
of where we are right
now, politically.
It's this burgeoning industry
of recognizing women in a way,
if you know what I mean.
It's like a thing to do and
I hope that we get past that,
that we survive this trend.
I don't want to be a trend.
I want to be just
part of the whole.
And so the hashtagging
is great if you want
to sense the community, right,
as you can see how many
other people are using
that same hashtag.
It's a way to connect in with
certain very specific topics,
whether it's children's
literature
or generally women
in illustration.
They're kind of two
different things.
But I just have this
great hope for a future
that doesn't need a hashtag
like that for it to be vital.
>> Jillian Tamaki: Well,
I think the kidlit women
in particular is
a response to some
of that recent me too
stuff, #metoo stuff.
I do think it also deserve
as like an educational tool
for people that are starting
and they don't know the way
that it works and
now they're quickly--
so maybe that's good and that
it helps people prevent falling
into these traps or these bad
situations before their career
is at that point,
so I don't know.
>> Martha Kennedy: Yeah.
No. That's terrific.
I mean over a hundred--
This sort of is a good ending
point I think perhaps [laughs].
>> Jillian Tamaki:
Hashtag learning.
>> Martha Kennedy: From
hashtags to, you know,
over a hundred years ago,
Cecilia Beaux dreamed of a time
when the notion of women
and art would become strange
as mentioning men in art,
so we're moving toward that.
>> Helena Zinkham: So how
about we all agree today.
It's been a terrific panel
and we have been
privileged to hear--
[ Applause ]
We have been privileged to
hear from terrific artists,
terrific illustrators,
terrific cartoonists, period.
Thank you.
[ Applause ]
All right.
So I'm going to call on some of
my colleagues from the Prints
and Photographs Division.
As you head out the door in
groups, if you do have time
to go to the graphics
arts gallery and see some
of the original artwork,
it's fantastic experience,
and conveniently located next to
the library's gift shop filled
with souvenirs but most
specifically the book
"Drawn to Purpose".
Thank you for your time today.
>> Martha Kennedy: Thank you.
[Applause]
>> This has been a presentation
of the Library of Congress.
Visit us at loc.gov.