>> From the Library of
Congress in Washington, D.C.
>> Stephen Winick:
Hello, I'm Stephen Winick.
I'm the writer and editor in
the American Folklife Center
at the Library of Congress,
and I'm here with Jeff
and Gerret Warner, who are
going to be talking to us
about their careers
and about the Frank
and Anne Warner collection,
or, as we sometimes call it,
the Anne and Frank Warner
collection, which is one
of our treasured
collections here
at the American Folklife Center.
And, it's a -- it's a large
multiformat collection,
mostly sound recordings
of traditional folk music.
So, Jeff and Gerret, thank
you for being with us.
>> It's a treat.
>> Gerret Warner:
It's a real treat.
Thank you.
>> Stephen Winick: And
I guess we'll just start
by talking a little
bit about your parents
and what they accomplished,
and what it was that they did.
So, let's talk a
little about starting
with Frank Warner's
background a little bit.
>> Gerret Warner: Shall I?
>> Jeff Warner: Uh-huh.
>> Gerret Warner:
I get to speak?
>> Jeff Warner: Uh-huh.
>> Gerret Warner: Well, Frank
Warner was born in Selma,
Alabama 1903, and grew up on
an unusual street for Selma.
Sylvan [assumed spelling]
Street was black and white,
and his next-door
neighbor was black,
and he attributed quite a bit of
his affinity for black culture
and black music to
the those first years.
And then they moved to
Tennessee and landed in Durham,
North Carolina, where he
did most of his growing up.
Went to Duke University,
where we went.
And, was a singer from
the very beginning.
Did singing on radio and
sang in gospel -- glee clubs.
And, yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: He was
a performer early on.
>> Stephen Winick: And he went
to Duke, and one of the things
that he studied was folklore and
folk music there, is that right?
>> Gerret Warner: Yes.
[ Making Sound with Mouth ]
Well, not really.
Well, he --
>> Jeff Warner: No, because
Dr. Frank C. Brown was there --
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Jeff Warner: Teaching
literature
and had a course on the ballad.
And father, who ran the glee
club and toured the state,
sort of prominent on campus.
So, Dr. Brown asked
him if he would come in
and demonstrate some of the
songs that he, Frank Brown,
had collected in the mountains
and on the Outer Banks.
And, so, my father learned some
songs and came in and did that.
I'm not sure he --
>> Gerret Warner: So, we figured
that would've been the beginning
of sense of folklore really,
rather than just these
are songs that I like.
>> Jeff Warner: I think so.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah, and,
of course, Frank C. Brown was
such an important
figure at Duke,
but throughout North
Carolina and, ultimately,
in the national folklore world,
that just having known him
and work with him
would have affected --
>> Jeff Warner: I think so.
>> Stephen Winick: Frank, yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: I was just
listening to family interviews
that we did back in
the early 1970's.
And, I had forgotten,
my father played
in what he called an orchestra
at Duke, played the trombone,
but he didn't read music.
And, so, he said he did like
a base part on the trombone,
and that's the way he
knew music, by ear.
>> Stephen Winick: He could
sort of figure out the part --
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah, so, he
did that for Professor Brown.
>> Stephen Winick: Great.
And, let's talk a little bit
about Anne Warner's background.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah, she was
born in St. Louis in 1905,
and then -- to an
upper-middle-class family.
They lived in St.
Paul and then Chicago.
She went to Northwestern,
but then there was a turn
in family fortunes, so she had
to leave Northwestern at the end
of her sophomore year
to go to New York,
where my grandparents were
at the time, to help raise --
keep the family together
and keep it going.
And, she had a whole
bunch of jobs,
saddened that she
couldn't get her degree.
But, what it did was send
her onto a secretarial path,
which was good for the folklore
collection because she was able
to take all singers
words down in shorthand.
So, our texts are peerless.
>> Stephen Winick: That's great.
>> Gerret Warner: Really true.
>> Stephen Winick:
And, how did they meet?
>> Jeff Warner: They
met through --
my father was running YMCA
camps in Greensboro in the '20s,
late '20s, and he took a job.
He was always a YMCA
professional.
He took a job in New York City.
I don't think it was yet
with the Grand Central YMCA,
but eventually he became
a railroad YMCA person.
And, it was through a Greensboro
benefactor of the Y down there
that -- who established
a coterie
of young people in
New York City.
Somehow, they got
into that atmosphere.
They met there.
>> Stephen Winick: And
New York City seems
to have been important to the
early sort of establishment
of -- there's sort of an
intellectual environment there.
So, in you -- in the book your
mother mentions Carl Sandburg
and Carl Carmer and
people that they met there.
>> Jeff Warner: We think --
yeah, we think it was
an important moment.
>> Gerret Warner: I think
it made all the difference
in the world.
That's how they actually ended
up on Beech Mountain in 1938.
And, but it gave them
different eyes and ears
than they might have
had otherwise, I think.
>> Stephen Winick: So, who
were some of the people?
I mean, I mentioned
the two Carls,
but who else were around there?
>> Jeff Warner: Carl
Carmer lived upstairs
and was doing a series of
books on America's rivers.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Jeff Warner: He had written
a book called Stars Fell
on Alabama in the '20s, I
think, which we used folklore --
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Jeff Warner: In
describing the life and times
of Alabama and people.
And, in doing a book
on the Hudson River,
he came across a
couple of people
who became major informants
of my parents, John Galusha
and the Adirondacks
and Lena Bourne Fish
in Jaffrey, New Hampshire.
>> Stephen Winick: All right.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah,
and William Rose Benet,
his brother Stephen Vincent
Benet, were close neighbors
and friends, and Marjorie
Flack, who was married to one
of the Benets, she did
children's book illustrations.
We remember her from
our childhood.
It was just an atmosphere
around.
And, Maurice Matteson, who
came to visit them in '37
at their house and
brought a mountain dulcimer
that started them on their trek.
I mean, that whole
idea of a mountain --
a guy who collected songs in
western North Carolina coming
to Greenwich Village with his
dulcimer to show people --
>> Stephen Winick: And
that's what did it for them?
>> Jeff Warner: And
that's what did it.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah,
magic moment, bong.
>> Stephen Winick:
So, they decided to go
and actually do collecting
themselves, is that --
>> Gerret Warner: Well --
>> Jeff Warner: That's a --
yeah, we think of it
as a magic moment.
>> Gerret Warner: It is a magic
moment, I'm quite sure it is,
in the sense that they
went down to get a dulcimer
like Maurice Matteson
had and, in the process,
they discovered this banjo also
that Nathan Hicks could make
and they asked for one.
And then, they went back
and they got the banjo
that we'll be talking about.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah, we'll
talk about that in a little bit.
>> Gerret Warner: And, but
what really strikes me,
maybe I'm jumping the
gun a little bit here,
but is what mom said was that
on that first day of collecting
on Beech Mountain
they recognized
that this was something that
might change their lives.
And I think, how
dramatic that must've been
that she recognized it.
I think she was primed to
look for it, they were.
But, it's interesting to think,
because most of us don't know
when a life's work
is going to begin.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: We just sort
of recognize it after a while.
>> Jeff Warner: After a while.
But, well, going back to that
that moment they
saw the dulcimer.
They wrote to Nathan
Hicks to get one.
He said he'd make one for them.
The moment they sat in the
living room on West 11th --
West 10th Street in Greenwich
Village and said, you know,
instead of waiting
for this in the mail,
why don't we borrow a
car and drive 800 miles
on little roads to get this.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: That's
a magic moment.
>> Stephen Winick: That's
a magic moment, sure.
Yeah. So, one of the
things that's interesting
about the collection is that,
you know, some great folklores
that we have in our collections
weren't that good technically
and the sound ends up
not being that good,
because it's an early
technology,
but your parents actually
did a pretty good job
of capturing sound.
>> Gerret Warner:
I don't know how.
>> Stephen Winick: What
-- how did they learn?
>> Gerret Warner:
I don't know how.
I mean, I've said to Jeff many
times, because I'm a filmmaker,
I can't believe that
they never had a set
of headphones, for instance.
They could never monitor.
>> Stephen Winick:
That's weird, yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: So,
they could play it back,
but it's not quite
the same thing.
So, you do hear kids in the
background and all of that.
>> Stephen Winick: Sure.
>> Gerret Warner: But,
that's part of the charm
with the recording, but --
>> Jeff Warner: And our
father singing harmony.
He'd collect singers,
traditional singers,
and then he'd join in
[laughter], which is part of --
[ Inaudible ]
Part of the joy of the party
and part of the way he,
as somebody said, he
collected people, not songs,
and a part of the way
of collecting was making
it a moment for everybody.
>> Gerret Warner: But,
it wasn't folklore 101.
>> Jeff Warner: No, it's not
[inaudible] never taught that.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: But, you
know, in those earliest days,
as mom describes, you
know, was this disc
and the acetate would
collect as it caught the disc,
and you'd have to brush it away
and sometimes you
didn't and all of that.
I don't really know
how they did it.
They also didn't have
any financial backing so.
>> Stephen Winick: Well, that --
yeah, that was another
interesting question.
I mean, so you had
people like the Lomaxes,
and you had people working
the various WPA projects
around the states,
and they were --
it was clear how they
were doing it financially,
where it was coming from.
But, your parents would just
go out on their vacations.
They would take all their
vacation time to do this.
That kind of made their project
a little bit different --
>> Gerret Warner: I think so.
>> Stephen Winick:
Than someone else's.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah,
I'm surprised they had
a month, first of all.
My mom was a secretary
and pop was working
for the YMCA, but
they had a month.
And, the way they described it
was, two weeks in the south,
two weeks in the north.
But, it doesn't explain
how they bought the discs
and any of those supplies.
I mean, it just -- that
really surprises me.
But, it's the donation of
those early recording machines,
disc recorders, that really
did make the difference,
as Lomax pointed out, because
he was early on recording.
The recognition, that
recording was so important
to get the song, the
whole song when you could.
>> Stephen Winick: So,
how did they get their
recording machines?
>> Jeff Warner: I can't remember
how Ferrara Reinhardt [assumed
spelling], the first one that
they got, the first disc cutter
in 1940, how -- what
that connection was.
I know that --
>> Gerret Warner:
They were friends.
One of them was a friend.
>> Jeff Warner: It was a friend?
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Then they
took that the first year.
But, you had to go to someplace
where there was electricity
and plug it in.
>> Stephen Winick: Sure, yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Where they were
collecting there wasn't any.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: Which is
another interesting thing
about acquisition.
You know, that these people
left their home and went
down off the mountain to
somebody else's house.
They're sitting in a
strange living room
and recording their song.
>> Jeff Warner: Or,
a general store.
>> Gerret Warner: Whereas later
it was a battery driven Filco.
>> Jeff Warner: Frank Warner
did an experimental TV show
in Philadelphia in 1940,
and Filco got interested.
They were doing -- connected
somehow to the filming of it,
and they got interested
in what he was doing
and they developed this
portable, with a wind up,
so you didn't have to
plug it in, disc cutter.
That's how the 41 machine
happened, and that was used
for a couple of years.
>> Gerret Warner: it still
was snippets of song,
so it wasn't all the variations
that they later could
get on tape.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah,
and then, ultimately,
there was a battery-operated
machine as well.
>> Gerret Warner: No, I
think that was the battery.
>> Stephen Winick: Oh, I see.
>> Gerret Warner: I think
it was wind up battery.
>> Jeff Warner: Inside the --
>> Stephen Winick: I see.
>> Gerret Warner: As far
as I could understand.
I don't know.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: We mourn --
>> Gerret Warner:
We don't have it.
>> Jeff Warner: We mourn it.
We went -- we look at
each other and say,
what did they do with it?
And, we have the expectation
that the day they got reel
to reel, that thing went
out the second story window.
>> Stephen Winick:
yeah, yeah, maybe so.
>> Gerret Warner: I still
remember that Wallensock Satin
at the corner of
our living room.
>> Jeff Warner: The
reel to reel.
>> Gerret Warner: You know,
it had kind of like an
early CBS logo, these two --
you probably know this machine.
The two eyes would come
together as a video meter.
>> Stephen Winick: Right, right.
>> Gerret Warner: You
know, and if they --
if they clashed you
were over modulating.
>> Jeff Warner: I forgot that.
>> Gerret Warner: That
was it [laughter].
No monitoring.
>> Stephen Winick: Very cool.
>> Gerret Warner:
But, they sound good.
They sound really good.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner:
Especially, you know, 1950 on.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
So, you had mentioned that
your mother was really good
at shorthand, and
that kind of gets us
into another question just in
general of the different roles
that your parents played in the
collection process, because we,
Jeff and I chatted about this
little on the phone once,
that their -- that they each
brought their own magic to it.
Tell me about that a little bit.
>> Gerret Warner: Well, I mean,
it was a pretty complementary
set of skills
that the two came together with,
didn't know how much it would
help them in this collection.
But, mom was a born
fact checker, historian.
I think probably felt
a great deal of romance
about this literary
musical event
that they were getting into.
And, she brings all of
that to her good writing.
And, pop was a natural
performer,
somewhat dramatic in
the way he did it.
If I can do an aside here for
a moment, I want to be sure
to talk about just
his performing,
because I think it
was very unusual.
He -- and Jeff does
it now, as well.
But, Frank Warner would
take a picture say
of Yankee John Galusha and
put it on an easel beside him,
and then he would conjure up his
memory of this person wholly.
This is the person.
And he would say, I'm here to
represent Yankee John Galusha,
not I'm Frank Warner,
going to sing you a song.
It's a pretty unusual notion.
It took all of the
pressure off him in a way,
maybe why he just
loved performing,
and he did that with
each of these people.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: So --
>> Stephen Winick: That is --
>> Gerret Warner: He was
-- he was a storyteller.
He was not a fact checker.
>> Jeff Warner: And, the fact
that he came out of the south
and was working with
working people all his life,
and then a YMCA director dealing
with upper-class
people on his boards --
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: I think
helped them so much to go back
and forth and know how to
handle a room and how to be --
work with people of any stripe.
So --
>> Gerret Warner: Kind
of a social worker --
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner:
The way he had --
I mean, in a sense that was
his work with young people,
and I think it helped
him in collecting.
>> Jeff Warner: So, his charm
and ability to communicate,
linked our mother's
historian point of view
and editing abilities --
>> Stephen Winick:
And that ended --
that ended up creating a
collection that both sort
of represents the fun that
they were having and doing it,
but also has the names of the
singers and dates and things
that are important to remember
about each event,
each recording event.
So, it's a -- it was a
good partnership certainly.
>> Gerret Warner: in the -- in
the many concerts that we sat
in the audience and listened to
Frank Warner, it is very common
for him to, you know,
be completely engrossed
in the story that he was selling
and then forget some fact,
and mom would call it
out from the audience.
That was the concert.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: And
that was a standard thing,
and they worked that
out pretty well.
>> Stephen Winick: Very good.
So, eventually they started
to bring you guys
along on these trips.
That started pretty early,
didn't it, in your lives?
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah, we
were, golly, three and six.
>> Gerret Warner: Six and nine.
>> Jeff Warner: Three -- no, it
was '43 when they went to see --
'46 when they went
to see John Galusha.
>> Gerret Warner: Okay.
>> Jeff Warner: You were a baby.
>> Gerret Warner: I
don't remember that.
>> Jeff Warner: No, you were a
babe in arms and I was three.
I just know that
because we have a picture
of me sitting next
to John Galusha.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah, right.
>> Jeff Warner: The Yankee
logger singer and, with his dog,
Flash, that I was much more
interested in than the songs.
And, so, that's when it started.
I was just -- the
war had stopped,
or was about to stop,
everything.
Yes, they sold their car.
We just remember they sold
their first car in '43.
>> Gerret Warner: A car
we didn't know they had.
>> Jeff Warner: We
didn't know they had.
We were in it, we
didn't know they had it.
So, yeah, and then
-- but, in '40 --
in '51 was the first
time we remember anything
about being on a trip with them.
>> Gerret Warner: Yes.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
And what was that like?
Did you -- did you kind
of recognize how
extraordinary it was?
>> Jeff Warner: Oh, no.
>> Stephen Winick: Or,
was it just mom and dad?
Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Absolutely,
mom and dad.
You know, and the hardships
of living on a mountain home.
>> Gerret Warner:
Yeah, and shooting guns
with Frank Proffitt, Junior.
>> Jeff Warner: Well,
that was nice.
>> Gerret Warner:
That kind of thing.
>> Jeff Warner: Climbing the
hills with the Proffitt kids.
>> Gerret Warner:
Well, we did notice,
I talked about this
before, was how different
of the social exchange
was on Beech Mountain
than we had known, say at folk
parties in Greenwich Village,
was that people might sit for
a long time without talking
and they were all
comfortable in that silence.
That was a new experience
for me, I've never forgotten.
But, very kind.
It wasn't -- it wasn't
an awkward silence,
is I guess what I'm
trying to say.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: And the people
were so utterly welcoming,
very thankful that we'd --
that mom and pop had come back,
which they talked about.
I didn't think we'd
ever see you again,
because they didn't
see many people.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
Yeah. And I guess, you know,
your parents had been there
and gotten something from them,
collected something from them,
and they, you know, they
had that feeling that, well,
maybe that's all
they were after.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner:
Which is always a risk.
>> Stephen Winick:
But, it's not.
Yeah, always a risk, exactly.
>> Jeff Warner: And we were so
glad that we went back in '59,
because we were then teenagers.
>> Gerret Warner:
Yeah, that's memorable.
>> Jeff Warner: And
that was memorable.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: And
Frank Proffitt,
who they had not seen -- and
they had seen him in the '30s
and '40s, but not in
1951 when they went back.
He was out working.
But now, he was there,
'59, and they had tape deck
and it was just, that was great.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: I
mean, we were close
with the kids and
it was memorable.
>> Stephen Winick: And they
got some great recordings
out of that as well.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
But, it's hard to -- it's
hard to imagine actually.
Frank Proffitt walked
eight miles to get
to that first meeting.
>> Stephen Winick: Wow.
>> Gerret Warner: And then
walked eight miles home.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: And that
was mountain life then.
>> Stephen Winick:
It was normal, yeah.
>> Gerret Warner:
Nobody had cars.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
Amazing. So, I wanted to
ask you guys about some
of your impressions of the
rural people that you met,
specifically some of the folks
that your mother wrote about.
Now, I know you were very young
when you met some of them,
so you might not have that
many memories, but let's start
with John Galusha, that
you mentioned, Jeff.
>> Jeff Warner: I
was just thinking,
you don't have any
memory of him.
>> Gerret Warner: I
don't have any memory.
>> Jeff Warner: No, no.
>> Gerret Warner: Except pop
as a Yankee John Galusha.
>> Jeff Warner: That's right.
We have this overlay of the many
talks of our parents about them.
I just remember meeting him
when I was six or seven,
or something, and he
was on his deathbed.
That's the only really
full memory I have of him.
And, yet, I would say
now, of all the singers
that my parents worked with,
he's the one whose style
I follow the closest.
He had --
>> Gerret Warner:
Such great songs.
>> Jeff Warner: Such
a great song,
and really historical old songs.
I was talking with a friend of
mine in Sussex, and I played him
in England and I played him
a CD of John Galusha singing.
And, he went right to his
library, pulled out a CD,
and put it on, and it was
a northern Irish singer.
It was that same style, not
the curly cue kind of singing
of western Irish, southern
Irish, but just storytelling.
And, I see that as a logging
camp style of singing,
of just telling the story.
>> Stephen Winick: And it may --
that may reflect the
fact that you've lived
in New Hampshire
for quite a while.
[ Inaudible ]
But, you're -- but, you're
not a southerner also,
which may be why he's the
one that you gravitated --
>> Jeff Warner: Yes.
>> Stephen Winick: Toward more.
>> Gerret Warner: Could be.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah, so.
>> Gerret Warner: Could be.
>> Jeff Warner: I also --
>> Gerret Warner:
Memories of people, I mean,
there are two people that are
particularly memorable to me.
One of them was Buna Hicks, Buna
Vista Hicks, who played fiddle,
you know, in the crook of
her arm, the dugout fiddle.
But, she had a very sweet voice
that just projected
a great distance,
and she was just
sweet as could be.
Just took care of the kids
and brought us all in.
The other was, and most
notably, Frank Proffitt.
He had an effect on everybody
who met him, just as --
both a funny man and a
very serious poet, farmer.
So, yeah, he was --
he was something,
and we got to know
him very well.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
Well, I want to talk a little
bit more about him later,
but I should also mention
that we have a banjo
that Frank made, and we're --
>> Gerret Warner: That's great.
>> Stephen Winick: Very
glad to be getting a banjo
from you today, which we'll talk
about a little bit
in a moment as well.
But, other people that I
wanted to mention, Sue Thomas
and J. B. Sutton, an interesting
family, mother and son.
>> Gerret Warner: Yes.
>> Stephen Winick: What do
you remember about them?
>> Gerret Warner: Well, I mean,
really what's memorable is
that when Frank Warner
went to the Outer Banks
from Duke University
just to go fishing --
>> Jeff Warner: Before he
was interested in folk music.
>> Gerret Warner: I can see
him going into the kitchen,
he liked to eat, going into
the kitchen to meet the cook,
and that's where he met
Sue Thomas, who was a cook
at a fisherman's lodge.
And that was 1933,
before he was even think
about collecting songs.
But, he loved her singing
and so he learned He's Got
the Whole World in His Hand
and Hold My Hand Lord
Jesus, songs that he sang
for the rest of his life.
And then, and mom was, too,
in '33, because as we have
that picture, sort of -- sort
of like the very first
moment of collecting --
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: Is
the way we see it.
>> Jeff Warner: No, I have --
we have no specific memories --
>> Gerret Warner:
We don't, yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Because
we weren't there.
>> Stephen Winick:
You weren't around.
>> Gerret Warner:
Weren't born yet.
>> Jeff Warner: Right,
we weren't born yet.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
But, it is a reflection of the
African-American side of things
on that part of their
collecting,
which I think people are less
familiar with to some extent.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: There's --
>> Stephen Winick: Because
they think of Frank Proffitt
and those great informants.
>> Jeff Warner: That's right.
>> Stephen Winick: And
they think of your parents.
>> Jeff Warner: But, now, he
had, as Gerret was saying,
close friends as a child
in the black community
and he maintained that
through his whole life.
And, so, it was just axiomatic
that they would look
for those songs, too.
Joe Henry Johnson and Suffolk,
Virginia, and just part of it.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: We
don't have any specific.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah, sure.
>> Gerret Warner: I wish we did.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: There's lots
of things we wish
we could go back
and now look at with these eyes.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
Well, so, let's talk
about Frank Proffitt.
You mentioned the great
effect that he had on people.
What was that like
to meet him as a kid?
>> Jeff Warner: Edit
this out [laughter].
No, because I really
-- we don't.
We just oozed into it.
Grew up and there was this
stoic, gentle, funny guy,
and listened to his music.
>> Gerret Warner: And he
walked us up to the top
of the mountain effortlessly,
and us two New York City
kids were just huffing
and puffing [laughter],
and stood up there
and told us stories about --
told us all the family stories.
Well, you had a couple of
his humorous points of view.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah, but
we're telling them tonight,
and we were told
not to do here --
>> Gerret Warner: Oh.
>> Jeff Warner: What we
were going to do tonight.
>> Gerret Warner: Sorry,
Stephen [laughter].
>> Stephen Winick: No,
you could repeat some
of the stuff you're going
to talk about tonight.
But, it's just that
we're going to have video
of both events online so.
>> Jeff Warner: Well, it just
it feels it's not so much funny
as it is a great moment.
In '39, I think,
when they went back
and my father took binoculars,
which no one had ever
seen, in the mountains.
And, they went up to the top
of -- the top of the hill,
Watauga County, to
look into Tennessee,
and he showed everybody
binoculars,
to look into the mountains,
the Maryland mountains.
>> Stephen Winick: Wow.
>> Jeff Warner: And then,
Frank Proffitt looked down
and my father said,
there's your --
there's your cornfield
right there.
And he looked down at it,
Frank did, and he said,
I don't see anybody hoeing
in it, though [laughter].
>> Gerret Warner: That
was Frank's kind of humor.
>> Jeff Warner: That's
Frank Proffitt.
>> Stephen Winick: Right, sure.
So, Frank is the person
from whom probably the
most famous song that came
out of the collation
was collected,
and that is Tom Dooley.
So, let's talk a little bit
about the whole Tom
Dooley issue.
The Kingston Trio, of course,
recorded Tom Dooley
in the late 1950's.
It was the biggest hit of
1958 and 1959, number one hit,
became the first Grammy winner
in country and western music --
[ Multiple Speakers ]
Because the Grammy's
were created in 1959,
so it was the first one.
>> Gerret Warner: Wow.
>> Stephen Winick: And this
created kind of an issue
for Frank, from whom
the song was collected.
>> Jeff Warner: Frank Proffitt.
>> Stephen Winick: From
Frank Proffitt, yeah, sorry.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah,
yeah, yeah.
That's a --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Lifelong
problem --
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Jeff Warner: Of Frank
Proffitt and Frank Warner.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah,
he had taught Tom Dooley
to Frank Warner in 1938,
and it took that long time,
to '58 for it to find its
way into Capital Records
and the Kingston Trio.
So, when Frank Proffitt saw
it on television and saw it
so urbanized, as it was, with
the fancy shirts and dancing --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: He -- I
guess I can understand it.
He thought he was
being made fun of.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: As a
-- as a rural hick.
>> Gerret Warner: He was
offended, really offended.
>> Jeff Warner: And he said, at
least he wrote to my parents,
he wanted to go shoot him.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: So, my folks,
who had not seen him since '41,
I think I just came
to that conclusion.
In 1959, but we hadn't
seen him since 1941.
>> Gerret Warner: But,
they had corresponded.
>> Jeff Warner: Corresponded.
My father, I guess, got on a
train and went down to see him
to convince Frank Proffitt that
he was not being made fun of,
it was just a progression
of events.
And, Frank almost immediately,
from what we can tell,
came to understand it was
okay and that, in fact,
it was a Frank Proffitt mountain
contribution to society.
>> Gerret Warner:
Yeah, I would just --
I would just confirm
that's what --
that was Frank Proffitt's
own take on it.
>> Stephen Winick:
Which was what?
>> Gerret Warner:
Was that he had --
he had come to accept it as
part of what was his obligation
to his heritage, was to
pass it along to everyone.
But, it must've been
quite a tough transition.
The way he describes it
in writing is, you know,
paragraph to paragraph, but you
can imagine him mulling this
for a long time alone up there
in the mountains
and feeling hurt.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
Well, I think it says a lot
about your parents, too,
that they went back
to visit him.
They didn't just write
him a letter or whatever.
They actually --
>> Jeff Warner: Boy,
you got a point.
>> Stephen Winick: Went and --
>> Gerret Warner: I
think that's true.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
And one of the things that
came out of that actually is,
they made of a much
clearer recording
of him performing the song
in '59 than they had before.
>> Jeff Warner: Went back
in '59, it's all part
of the steel, isn't it?
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Went back
in '59, lots and lots
of interviews and songs of him.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: And
that inspired, I guess,
I don't know the
exact chain of events,
but within two years my
father took Frank Proffitt
to the Chicago Folk
Festival to perform there,
and that was his first
outing into society to play,
which was followed by
the Newport Folk Festival
and by the World's Fair.
And he represented the
state of North Carolina
at the World's Fair in '65.
Whoa.
>> Gerret Warner: As you
know, the change from 1941
to 1959 is quite dramatic --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner:
From Jimmy Rogers
to this old-time fretless
banjo presentation --
[ Multiple Speakers ]
>> Stephen Winick: Yes.
>> Gerret Warner:
Sorry, Frank [inaudible].
>> Stephen Winick:
Very much so, yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah, but,
so that first presentation
of Frank Proffitt to the world
at the Chicago Folk Festival was
with a fretless banjo
singing old-time style,
but it had come a
long way from 1941.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner:
For whatever reason.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
And then, of course, other
people collected him, too.
He ended up with the folk legacy
album and things like that.
>> Jeff Warner: That's right.
>> Stephen Winick: So, he
had something of a career
as a musician after that --
>> Jeff Warner: Correct.
>> Stephen Winick: Which
was an outcome that a few
of the traditional
performers were able to do,
and that was a great
thing as well.
So, let's talk about the
folk revival a little bit.
I mean, we've talked
about the Kingston Trio,
but you guys must've
met, as kids,
and then later throughout
your lives,
pretty much everyone [laughter].
I mean, [inaudible] and Alan
Lomax and all those folks.
So, who made the biggest
impressions on you?
>> Jeff Warner: Alan Lomax.
>> Gerret Warner: Absolutely.
>> Jeff Warner: Giant
bear of a guy.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Who
was like a 37% kid --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Anyway.
And he insisted on coming out
and playing baseball with us.
So, we'd hit fungos
and chase ground balls,
I can remember that.
And, essentially, scary.
I mean, just such
a big personality.
>> Gerret Warner: He was.
He was.
>> Jeff Warner: Our father
had a big personality, too,
but it was as this kind
and gentle kind of way.
And, Alan was just [making
sounds with mouth] big stuff.
He once called me up and, my
memory is, he wanted me to come,
leave my music school that
I was running, and help him
at Columbia University with his
Cantor metrics project he was
working on.
I remember being a
10-year-old or a 12-year-old
and said, no, thank you, sir.
>> Gerret Warner:
That's interesting.
I didn't know that story.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah, he called
me up at the guitar workshop.
>> Gerret Warner: He invited
me to help him edit that--
what was the series on NET?
>> Jeff Warner: Oh, yes, right.
>> Stephen Winick:
American Patchwork one?
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: I
just couldn't do it.
I had a job and --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: No,
that's funny.
I didn't know that
either [laughter].
>> Gerret Warner: He didn't
say he'd pay me [laughter].
>> Jeff Warner: We should --
we should this more often.
>> Gerret Warner: He
just said come do it.
But, he was that kind of
gregarious, big personality.
But, man, when he came to a
party and sang, it was just --
I loved Alan Lomax's singing.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: A lot of
people don't seem to talk
about his singing so much
because of his influence
in collecting.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: And
knowing people was so big,
but his singing was
really a beautiful thing.
>> Stephen Winick: He was
like your father in that way,
too, that he did both.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: And Pete Seeger.
I mean, we worked for Pete
Seeger on the Clearwater
in 1973, going around Long
Island [inaudible] doing
concerts to raise awareness
of ecology on the boat.
Pete Seeger, I don't know
how much of this we want
to get into, but I
think Pete Seeger asked,
according to the
family story anyway,
my father to join
the Communist Party.
And they didn't want to
because, well, YMCA director.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: We always joke
that I'm the only folksinger
to come from Republican
folk singers in New York.
And, of course, the politics
were different at the time.
>> Gerret Warner: It's
very different Republicans.
>> Stephen Winick:
Yeah, exactly.
>> Jeff Warner: My folks always
said that they were concerned
with Tammany Hall and the
Democratic control of New York.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: And, so,
they voted otherwise.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: But, no,
they were teetotalers
and it took us a
long time to get mom
to become a good Liberal.
And, who else?
I'd say the [inaudible].
>> Gerret Warner: Jean Ritchie.
>> Jeff Warner: Jean
Ritchie, yes.
We grew up with Jean Ritchie.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah, we were
always close with the Richie
and Pico's [assumed spelling]
and spent a lot of time
with them, both in New York and
then later in Port Washington.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: And we were just
behind the Greenwich Village
folk music craze
and joyous things
that happened in the '50s.
And John Cohen and Mike
Seeger and people playing
and forming the New
Lost City Ramblers,
which I see as this
amazing moment in 1958.
>> Stephen Winick:
Absolutely, yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Almost as much
as the Kington Trio
coming out --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Where suddenly
traditional music style
became important.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah,
it's sort of the two sides
of the revival there
happening at the same time.
>> Jeff Warner: Yes,
yes, yes, yes.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: I talk
about that whenever I can.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: About
how style evolved.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: And
then later, I mean,
I've never quite understood
what kind of thinking there was
in those early days of
the Newport Folk Festival,
because it was such a
tapestry of types of music.
I can remember John
Lomax standing --
I mean, Alan Lomax
standing there and listening
to Jose Feliciano play guitar
and just going wild
with enthusiasm.
So, you know, and
just Big Brother
and the Holding Company
and Janice Joplin.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah, right.
>> Gerret Warner: So, they
were all melded together.
That feels like a
lot of my youth.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
Well, it's almost
like we planned it,
because all of the people
that you mentioned are major
collection donors here at the --
at the Folklife Center.
We have collections from --
>> Gerret Warner: Really?
>> Stephen Winick: John Cohen,
from Mike Seeger,
from Jean Ritchie --
>> Jeff Warner: Oh.
>> Stephen Winick:
And [inaudible].
>> Gerret Warner: That's great.
>> Stephen Winick:
All of those --
>> Gerret Warner: That's great.
>> Stephen Winick: Are --
and Pete Seeger, of course.
And then, of course,
Lomax worked here
early on in his career.
>> Gerret Warner:
It's funny that --
>> Stephen Winick: And we have
all his collections now, so.
>> Gerret Warner: There's a
lot of photographs that I think
of in terms of our
history with folk music
that George Pico took.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah, sure.
>> Gerret Warner: Because
he and Jean and Frank Warner
and Anne Warner were always
somehow the same parties,
same places.
>> Jeff Warner: And we
grew up with their kids.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: And --
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: Well, let's
talk about that a little bit,
about Frank as a photographer,
because we were talking
about that before.
That's an interesting part
of Frank Warner, I mean,
to say as a photographer.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: Something
that people don't
know that much about.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah, well,
he had no formal training,
but he -- I think he brought
his storytelling skills
to photography.
And I've thought of
that a lot, that --
you know, you can sort of take a
series of photographs of things
that you think look unique,
but in many cases you'll find
he's taken pictures that help
to tell the narrative
visually that mom was writing.
And, it probably came out of the
YMCA, because he was, you know,
doing lots of things
with camps and so on.
And, he had -- he used
to tell me a story.
I think a lot of people know
this kind of foolishness.
But, he used to love to -- you
know those long, panoramic shots
that they did of
groups in the 1920's?
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah, yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: So, they
would stand at one side and run
around behind the back as
it panned, and you'd be
on both sides of the photograph?
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner:
So, he was fascinated
with how technology worked.
And, I think, that's
probably why he ended
up with the 2 1/4 inch
negative twin lens reflex camera
that I remember from the '50s.
And, that took a
pretty nice photograph.
And, it also influenced,
I think, a little bit --
some people say if
you use a camera
like that it makes
people more comfortable
than a single end
reflex, you know,
where you're holding it up --
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner:
And looking at them.
I have no idea about
that, but he took --
>> Jeff Warner: He
looked down into it.
>> Gerret Warner: He looked
down into it to a projection.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner:
And that was most
of the photographs that I know.
The negative, I don't know
what this is, but the negative
that I came across that is a lot
of the early photographs was
more like two by 1 1/2 inches.
>> Stephen Winick: Interesting.
>> Gerret Warner:
About that size.
>> Stephen Winick:
Yeah, all right.
And, so, his composition
and that kind of thing,
was that an influence on
you in your later work?
>> Gerret Warner:
I'd like to think so.
Certainly, his whole
approach to subjects,
making people feel
comfortable, and so on.
But, he had -- he
had a nice eye.
I mean, like Ray Hicks
was about six foot eight,
and he stood him beside a broom
against a wall, and I thought,
well, it's kind of a
scientific approach.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: But, it's
humorous because he also did one
of Ray with a groundhog on his
shoulder, kind of laughing.
And then great of family
portraiture, like, you know,
four girls on a porch with
old Ben Hicks staring at them,
standing right beside them,
and there's Frank Proffitt
and Bessie Proffitt standing
behind them looking very
mountain disengaged, but it
tells this whole story just
in that one photograph.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: And
there are a lot of those.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: Like
a whole bunch of --
it'd be 10 girls all composed
in this pyramid, all thrilled
to be meeting somebody
from off the mountain.
>> Stephen Winick: Sure.
And there are a few
those kind of shots
with you guys in them as well.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah, yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: Were
you used as props in the --
>> Gerret Warner: We were
just tools [laughter].
Yeah, nobody cared about us.
>> Jeff Warner: A lot
of pictures in 1959
on Beech Mountain there
at the Nathan Hicks' house
where it was the center of
so many pictures and music --
>> Stephen Winick: Sure.
>> Jeff Warner: On
Beech Mountain.
>> Gerret Warner: It's part
of that whole thing about,
to what extent were they
conscious of the value of thing
to later years, is
endlessly interesting to me.
And, one of the pieces
of evidence is
that he took photographs
of my mother recording
with each one of
those recorders.
So, he was aware that, okay,
we're doing something here
that we're going to
wish we had a record of.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah,
and those are actually very
useful photos, actually.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: There
aren't that many photos
of those machines in use.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: There's
photos of the machines
and there's photos of
performers, but there's not
that many photos that
actually show them being used.
>> Gerret Warner: And the setup
of where the microphone
is and how the person --
>> Stephen Winick: All that.
>> Gerret Warner:
Is handling it and.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah,
it's great to have those photos
associated with the collection.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Do you happen to
know what Herbert Halpert used
when he recorded on Beech
Mountain in '39 and stuff?
Was he using [inaudible] things?
Because we know that John
and Alan Lomax used portable,
but in quotes, because
it was enormously heavy.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Jeff Warner: In '35
or whenever they were
out there looking?
But, I don't know what he used.
>> Stephen Winick: So, the
famous picture that we have
of Halpert, that might
help answer that question,
has got him with
a large vehicle,
it's almost like an ambulance.
>> Jeff Warner: Oh, yes, yes.
>> Stephen Winick: And,
so, it seems likely
that he was using
something big and bulky,
if that's what he was using.
>> Gerret Warner: The
[inaudible] photograph.
>> Stephen Winick: But, I --
yeah, but I don't know
which trip that's
associated with necessarily.
It was associated
with the south though,
it was one of his
southern states.
>> Jeff Warner: So, this
may be the first Library
of Congress donated
recordings on a small --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Portable
disc cutter.
>> Stephen Winick:
We don't know.
>> Jeff Warner: We don't know.
Someone knows, but
it's not me [laughter].
So, that opens another
question, which is,
how did this great collection
that your parents amassed,
essentially as a private
hobby, how did that end
up at the Library of Congress?
How did they make that decision?
>> Jeff Warner: [Inaudible].
I don't know, I think
it's just this connection
between folk music and
academe that they got
through the New York
Historical Society,
connection with Alan Lomax.
>> Gerret Warner: That's
what I was going to say.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: Alan Lomax
would have probably been --
>> Jeff Warner: Preserved,
preserved, preserved.
>> Gerret Warner: Principle --
>> Jeff Warner: We
remember when I --
when I came down my parents
decided to donate everything
to the Library of Congress,
'70, mid '70s sometime.
First, as a family, we all
listened to it altogether.
Then we took all those
recordings down and gave them
to the Library of Congress in
return for good reel-to-reels.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Jeff Warner: And,
at the time,
I found out that the parents
had given everything --
had given tape in 1951,
and I didn't know that.
How did that happen?
And then, I remembered that my
father had assiduously taken all
of their records and put
them on his reel-to-reel tape
and had given those
copies to the Library.
>> Stephen Winick: Interesting.
>> Jeff Warner: So, even then --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: He realized
where it should go --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: In '51.
>> Stephen Winick: So,
let's talk about your
individual careers a little bit.
Gerret, you are a
filmmaker, a media producer.
So, how has this early
life, do you think,
how has it influenced
what you've done later?
>> Gerret Warner: Well,
it's interesting how
one's life turns.
But, early on Jeff and I did
a lot of singing together.
But, at some point, I realized
it wasn't a career for me.
And, what I -- what I was
most influenced by was,
I thought that at
some point very early
on that I might make films the
way my parents collected songs,
but I never could
quite figure that out.
All the people they
collected from had died,
now their children are gone,
and so I ended up moving back
and forth between
teaching and filmmaking.
And then, since 1984, I've
had my own film company,
specializing pretty much in
nonprofit kinds of films.
But, now I'm working
on documentaries.
And, it's actually the donation
here that has helped me decide,
yes, this is -- we should now
finally make this story a film.
So, I've just begun
working on that.
>> Stephen Winick: So,
you're making a film
about the Warners
and their collecting?
>> Gerret Warner: But, to
also answer your question,
the way my parents collected
has influenced everything
about the way that I interview,
particularly, of recognizing
that if you want to ask
somebody a set of questions,
the amount of time that you
spend before you interview them
is at least as important
as the time
in which you interview them.
>> Jeff Warner: Is that true?
>> Stephen Winick: It is.
That's why I'm sitting here with
his crazy clipboard [laughter].
>> Gerret Warner: But, it
isn't only about content.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: It's
about the mood you set,
it's about the establishment
of trust.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: All of that
is really what's going on.
And people want to share
information, that's what --
I also learned that from them.
They want to share
information if they trust you.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: And, so,
there's this whole thing,
exchange of trusts, and I think
there's a lot to explore there.
But, I learned it whole
cloth, mostly from my father,
because I think that was
his great contribution
to those collecting moments.
>> Jeff Warner: I never
heard you say that,
and that's profound, Gerret.
>> Gerret Warner: Hmm.
>> Stephen Winick: There you go.
>> Gerret Warner: But, it's --
I think of it actually
all the time.
You know, that -- because I can
remember him sitting and talking
to some of these people,
particularly Beech Mountain,
but other places, too,
and he had the same skill
when he met somebody
on the street.
I mean, that was Frank Warner.
You know, that he
would just sort
of stop somebody
and talk to them.
So, yeah, I like to think
I got a little bit of it.
>> Stephen Winick: Sure.
And what are some of the
film projects over the years
that stand out in your
memory that you've worked on,
if you can pick among
your artistic children?
>> Gerret Warner: Well, I mean,
I love a film we did
about Polly Hill.
It was a-- it's not related
to folk music, but she was --
she had inherited this sheep
farm on Martha's Vineyard
in her 50's and she
decided she want
to turn it into an arboretum.
And, by the time we met her,
she was 94, and she turned it
into a world-class arboretum.
>> Stephen Winick: Wow.
>> Gerret Warner: And,
it's now a nonprofit
on Martha's Vineyard
you can go visit.
It's a -- it's a
remarkable place.
And another that
we worked on for --
Mimi and I have worked on
this for about seven years,
is about Vollis Simpson,
who is a remarkable outside
artist, as they call him.
I don't really buy
that term, but.
He had grown up as a
mechanic, and at about age 50,
maybe that's a turning point
in life, at about age 50,
like Polly Hill, he turned
his old mechanic stuff
into these ornamental
windmills, whirligigs.
And, so, we've documented
him for all those years
until he died, about
three or four years ago.
>> Jeff Warner: Where
does he live?
Where did he live?
>> Gerret Warner:
Wilson, North Carolina.
>> Jeff Warner: Wilson,
North Carolina.
>> Gerret Warner: And, so,
we have all of that footage.
We shot it for the North
Carolina Arts Council
and Wilson, and I
think it's about time.
We got to put it together into
something as a finished product.
>> Stephen Winick: Sounds good.
>> Gerret Warner: But,
yeah, we love those.
And they're all very
much informed by the --
>> Jeff Warner: How about
your Truth Underground?
>> Gerret Warner: Well, that's
a different kettle of fish, too,
but something I'm really proud.
Ned and Mimi and I all worked on
a film about spoken word poetry.
It's a -- it features three
poets from the triangle area
of North Carolina and their art
and what the relationship was.
We did that in 2016.
So, a future documentary.
>> Stephen Winick: Excellent.
Well, those all sound
like fabulous films,
so we'll keep an eye out for
the one that's not finished yet.
>> Gerret Warner: Thanks.
>> Stephen Winick:
Yeah, and thank you.
And, Jeff, you've been a folk
musician all these years.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: An
actual professional,
full-time folk musician.
>> Jeff Warner: It's hard
to believe, isn't it?
>> Gerret Warner:
Someone actually has done
that [laughter].
>> Stephen Winick: So, what are
some of the highlights for you
of that whole experience?
>> Jeff Warner: Well,
just oozing into it,
and then the amount of work that
I have done with young people
in schools, I just -- I
don't think I would've been a
professional doing
real traditional music,
which is what I like
to think that I do,
even though I'm an urban person.
I got out of college in the
service and never expected to be
in folk music, other
than having fun.
Started working at Doubleday
and trying to be an editor.
And then, after three years
there, a friend of mine asked me
if I would leave that and
come help run a music school
in Long Island with him, a place
called The Guitar Workshop.
And, I said, uh-oh, now
I've got to make a decision.
So, I decided to do that.
And, for 10 years, I helped
run that school, taught,
and began to -- we did seminars,
as well as just teach
individual instruments.
And we did seminars on
teaching about traditional music
and about how to sing.
And I ran several folk
music concert series,
where I got to know most
of the folk revival going
on by hiring them to come
and play on Long Island,
and it was a great education.
And, then the bicentennial
happened and I began to be asked
to go to schools to
teach American history
through traditional song.
And I did and developed
my skills in being
to talk to kids about that.
Without that, I would not
have had a full-time career --
>> Stephen Winick:
Yeah, you do --
>> Jeff Warner: Because
I never --
>> Stephen Winick: Quite a bit
of work in schools with kids.
>> Jeff Warner: I do, I do.
And I have never written
a song in my life,
nor have the urge to do it.
You know, there's never been
this thing, well, you know,
just all this great
stuff and why don't I do
that kind of thing, too.
No, I'm perfectly happy learning
about the old songs
and carrying them on.
>> Stephen Winick: You do
some songs that we know
who the writers are, and some,
occasionally, as opposed to --
>> Jeff Warner: Absolutely
right.
>> Stephen Winick: The
deep traditions, but --
>> Jeff Warner: Something
will strike me and I say,
I love that song,
and I'll do it,
just I don't need to write them.
Where was I headed with this?
Oh, yeah. Somebody said to me
that [inaudible] about the power
of traditional music
and why it became
so important on the
folk revival.
Somebody, a friend, said that
he grew up in Canada and he used
to live in Toronto in the
late '50s and he would listen
to U.S. radio across
the Great Lakes.
And he said, and he heard
this song, Tom Dooley,
and it was about real life.
It was about a murder, and about
things that happened to people.
And he said to himself, why
can't I write things like that,
too, about real people and
real things that are happening?
I had never seen that connection
to the folk revival
of singer songwriter.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Of
taking real-life events
and then translating
that into their own life,
but using the style
or the feeling
of traditional music to do it.
For me, it had always been,
here come the old songs
and it's my job to let
people know about them.
>> Gerret Warner: I've never
heard you say something
like that.
>> Jeff Warner: Profound.
No, no [laughter].
Strike that.
>> Gerret Warner: No, it's just
interesting because, I mean,
like it reminds me of the
song Away Idaho, right,
which like they collected
from someone.
But, it was Away Arkansas
before it was Away Idaho.
It was about hot springs baths
and then it was about gold.
So, it was essentially the same
thing as the singer songwriter,
except 19th century probably.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
So, using -- recycling
an old song.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah, which
I think is probably what's
happened since the
beginning of time.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: So,
I did that a lot.
I worked for The Guitar
Workshop doing concert series,
and then I worked in
schools quite a bit.
I had a childhood
friend of ours,
a guy named Jeff Davis
[assumed spelling], who,
one of the reasons I do
northern songs all the time is
because Jeff Davis was such a
good copier of Frank Proffitt.
In some ways he became
Frank Proffitt.
He could do all of
the banjo styles
and the vocal styles
of Frank Proffitt.
And, he kind of took care
of the southern stuff
in our -- in our repertoire.
And, I was big on sea shanties
and sea songs and songs
that came out of
the logging camps.
>> Stephen Winick: You could
have a show called Jeff
and Jeff Do Frank
and Frank [laughter].
So --
>> Gerret Warner:
Hey, next concert.
>> Stephen Winick: That's right,
yeah, that'll be your next.
>> Jeff Warner: And then, in the
last 15 years, I've had a chance
to spend two months a year
in the British Folk Revival,
which has been just
an eye-opener for me.
I say lightly to folks,
especially over there,
that I tend to go to
the UK to talk to people
who know something
about traditional music,
and most of my work in America
is starting from ground zero.
I work with New Hampshire
Humanities and libraries
and civic societies and
historical societies beginning
to tell people about
New Hampshire music --
>> Stephen Winick: Sure.
>> Jeff Warner: And
New England music.
But, over there, there's
300 folk festivals.
Whoa. And still, folklore
is in every little town.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Jeff Warner: So, I spend
two months touring and get
to do some of their
music that they gave us,
after 200 years I give it back.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
Yeah, and, you know, it's
actually very interesting
to see those connections between
what's going on in Britain and,
particularly the
New England side
of the American folk revival,
I would say, because there's
such deep similarities there.
>> Jeff Warner: It's deep.
>> Stephen Winick: So, well,
so you've revisited
the collection a number
of times over the years.
Once was, of course, when
your mother was working
on the book in, what
would it be, the 1980's.
>> Jeff Warner: Right.
>> Stephen Winick: And
you would have helped her
to some extent --
>> Jeff Warner: Yes.
>> Stephen Winick: With that.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah,
Jeff was the editor.
[ Inaudible ]
>> Stephen Winick:
So, what was that like
to go back to that collection?
>> Jeff Warner: Oh, magnificent.
I said in '74, before we
gave the whole collection
to the Library, we --
the family sat down
and listened to everything.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: And then
my father got sick in '77.
They had gotten a
grant from Humanities,
National Humanities,
to publish the book.
But, Frank Warner got
ill and died in '78.
And, as Gerret says,
heroically, and Warner went
on and wrote that book.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Didn't
get it done --
we didn't get it done until '84,
but that's when she
got it published.
And then, again, in 1999 --
>> Stephen Winick:
In the '90s, yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: Gerret
and I listened
to the entire collection
because a guy,
a folk singer named Tim
Erickson, a folk revival singer,
was singing for Appleseed
Records and he spurred us
on to get the collection in
order for it being on record.
And then convinced Appleseed
that they should publish it.
So --
>> Gerret Warner: It
was a great moment.
Yeah, it kind of got us
back together working --
>> Jeff Warner: It
got us back together.
>> Jeff Warner: On
the collection.
>> Jeff Warner: We spent --
>> Stephen Winick:
Digging into it.
>> Jeff Warner: A whole
year listening, again,
to the entire collection.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: And
then, instead of looking
at what is most important in
terms of American history,
it was what sounds good?
What are people going to be --
what will perk up their ears
to the sound of traditional
singers singing
songs [inaudible].
>> Gerret Warner: You know,
I was thinking, too, I mean,
at some point I think
you were talking
about how we decided
what would go on --
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: To the CD's,
and it was a difficult decision,
and plenty of arguments.
But, in the end, I think,
what I believed was the nature
of documentation is
recording the unknown.
You don't know what's
coming at you.
And, I kept thinking about
the places in which Anne
and Frank Warner
had collected songs.
It wasn't only in these pockets
that people might know about.
You know, Cecil Sharp had been
up there and let's go find it,
but at the Commodore
Hotel in New York,
or in the kitchen
of a friend's house.
And, so, I began to think, this
should be documentary in style.
This should give you a
feeling for the surprise
of any old thing you might find,
and that's what the
collection includes.
>> Stephen Winick: The
CD's that you put out?
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: So,
there were two of the CD's.
>> Jeff Warner: Yes, they were
-- both have the year 2000,
Appleseed Records,
The Warner Collection,
Volume 1 and Volume 2.
We gave them names according
to songs that we loved.
But, they're still
available on Appleseed label.
>> Stephen Winick: And
one of them is sort
of a general overview of the
collection and the other focuses
on Beech Mountain more or less?
>> Jeff Warner: Or,
North Carolina.
>> Stephen Winick: North
Carolina, okay, yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah,
because it was the Outer Banks
and Raleigh and --
>> Stephen Winick:
Good point, yeah.
All right.
So, yeah, so that's the
way I think a lot of folks
in the later part
of the revival came
to realize how rich
the collection was --
>> Gerret Warner: Interesting.
>> Stephen Winick: Was
these two CD's came out.
And, you know, Tim was kind of
young [inaudible] at that time
that everyone was listening to.
And, if he thought it was
good, people were going to --
>> Jeff Warner: You
have a point.
>> Stephen Winick: Listen to it.
So --
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick:
So, that was a --
>> Gerret Warner:
Thank you, Tim.
>> Stephen Winick:
A great moment
for that collection, as well.
So, let's talk about
From the Mountains
to the Sea a little bit, the
production that you're going
to show for us tonight.
But, how did you
put it together?
>> Jeff Warner: Well, Vic and
Tina Smith, who live in Sussex,
England, had the worked
on several kind of shows,
multimedia shows,
of English folklore.
And, they decided that I should
do one on the Warner collection.
There were very high
on it, and I knew them
from their folklore in Sussex.
And, so, they said
you must do this.
You must write it.
And I probably put
it off a year or two,
and then finally
sat down and did it.
So, it was 2009 or 2010 for one
of the English folk festivals.
And then I did a couple
of times over there
and then brought
it home to Gerret,
who lives in Chapel
Hill, North Carolina.
So, we're together a lot,
but we are 800 miles apart.
And, we started looking at
all the great photographs
that we have, plus Gerret's
great photographic eye,
and so let's rewrite it.
So, we put it together
with many more photographs,
and then a real script
that was fine edited
to match the picture
to the text.
And then we put in
sound recordings
of these rural people.
And then, as an extra fill up,
I did some of the songs myself.
>> Stephen Winick: Sure.
>> Jeff Warner: And,
as an extra fill up,
we got the audience
to sing with us.
>> Gerret Warner: So, the final
piece was, my wife, Mimi Gredy,
runs the audio playback.
So, she and I are the AV
tech team to his performance.
She runs audio, I run picture.
>> Stephen Winick: Amazing.
Well, there's one more thing
that I wanted to talk about,
which I'll turn to our
props here a little bit.
And, so, this is the book called
Traditional American Folk Songs
from the Anne and Frank Warner
Collection, which your mother,
Anne Warner, put
together, started doing it
with your father, but he passed
away before it was completed.
And it was just interesting to
us that we were all in the --
in the folklife reading room
today and we looked at the book.
And, there's something
about it that we [inaudible]
because it has a dust
jacket on it when --
>> Gerret Warner: That's true.
>> Stephen Winick: It's
not on a library shelf.
But, the actual cover of the
book has a little embossed banjo
on it, and that turns us to
our next topic of conversation,
which is, the Frank
Warner banjo.
Because these two gentlemen,
Jeff and Gerret Warner,
have been kind enough to consign
this banjo, to give this banjo,
to the Library of Congress.
And, so, we're going to show
the banjo and you can --
>> Gerret Warner: Great.
>> Stephen Winick: Talk
a little bit about it.
So --
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: This is a --
this is a banjo that
Frank Warner owned
for many, many years.
It's the banjo that you
were talking about early
on in our conversation.
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick:
I'll sit down with it.
And would you like to tell us
just a little bit about it?
>> Jeff Warner: They -- our
folks went to Beech Mountain,
Western North Carolina in 1938,
because of a mountain dulcimer.
Nathan Hicks, Frank
Proffitt's father-in-law,
had made this dulcimer for
Frank and Anne Warner in '38.
And, when they went
to visit the folks
on the Beech he saw an old banjo
and he wanted one of those,
too, did Frank Warner.
So, he asked Nathan
to make one of those.
And, in 1939 he made this
banjo for Frank Warner.
My father, we talked about Carl
Carmer, the New York author
who was doing some
luncheon program in 1939,
and asked Frank Warner to
come and illustrate some songs
from John -- from the
-- from the north.
And my father took the banjo,
went to sing some songs,
and happened to be sitting
next to Carl Sandburg,
the poet from Illinois.
And, on a whim, Frank Warner
said to Carl Sandburg,
would you sign this for me?
So --
>> Gerret Warner: This is
one of those great moments,
because you wonder,
what was he thinking?
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: You get a
new banjo from the mountains --
>> Jeff Warner: Who
signs the head?
>> Gerret Warner: Just,
yeah, sign my instrument.
>> Jeff Warner: What?
So, he signed it
Carl Sandberg 1939.
And my father said,
after that it was easy
to get other people sign it.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Jeff Warner: So, John
Lomax and Alan Lomax
and Pete Seeger and
Leadbelly and --
>> Gerret Warner: Two hundred
and fifty other people,
Jean Ritchie and Woody
Guthrie and Odetta.
>> Jeff Warner: Whalen Hand
[phonetic] and, you know,
professors of folk music.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: Joe Hickerson.
>> Jeff Warner: Right,
Joe Hickerson.
>> Stephen Winick:
Most of the heads
of the archive here have
signed it over the years.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah,
[inaudible].
So, it just went
on and on for --
from 1939 to about '77 of
getting signatures of people
in the folk revival
and folk academe,
and it became quite an
artifact because of that,
and my father used
it all the time.
He didn't know how to
play a five-string banjo,
so he took off --
>> Gerret Warner: Yeah.
He played a four-string guitar.
>> Jeff Warner: Yeah,
a tenor guitar.
So, he took off the fifth peg --
>> Stephen Winick: Got
you, he took off --
>> Jeff Warner: And had it
restrung as a tenor, as a --
yeah, four-string guitar.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Gerret Warner:
But, it's interesting.
I mean, it spans the
whole spread of folklore,
you might say, from
the most academic to --
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Gerret Warner: Just people
that he met along the way.
Jesse Merritt was a
historian of Nassau County
in Long Island, he signed it.
That's great.
I mean, it's got a --
it's got a great sort
of Carl Sandburg-like
celebration circle,
like celebration of
American humanity.
>> Stephen Winick:
Yeah, and there's a --
there's a picture
of it in the book.
So, it's documented in
various ways over the years,
but it's just great to have
this item in the library,
both for the signatures on
it, but for what it represents
about Frank and about
the collection as well.
And, also, there's a
relationship between this
and another banjo that we
have, because we have a banjo
that was made by Frank Proffitt,
and Nathan was his
father-in-law,
and I believe Nathan
was also instrumental
in teaching him something
about making banjos.
>> Jeff Warner: Could be.
I don't know.
>> Stephen Winick: And, so --
>> Gerret Warner: We don't know.
>> Jeff Warner: But,
Frank Proffitt learned
from his father, as well.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah,
so, there we have it.
Two similar banjos made
in the same style from --
>> Jeff Warner: Right,
pretty close together.
>> Stephen Winick: Pretty
close together, yeah.
>> Gerret Warner: We're
really proud to make it yours.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah, well,
and we're proud to have it.
So, thank you, gentlemen,
both very much.
And I'd like to say thank you
for the interview as well.
We're really looking forward
to the performance tonight,
and to keeping both
what you've said today
and what you will perform
for us tonight safe here
in the Library of Congress.
So, thank you very much.
>> Gerret Warner:
Thanks so much.
>> This has been a presentation
of the Library of Congress.
Visit us at loc.gov.