>> Nancy Groce: Hi, welcome. It's June 5, 2019 and welcome to the Library of Congress. We've just had a wonderful talk on Black Lives Matter and Music. And I'd like to welcome Fernando Orejuela, Alison Martin, and Stephanie Shonekan. And thank you for being here. And we just wanted to follow that very good Botkin lecture with learning a little bit about you and your careers as scholars, and perhaps what you're working on now. So who'd like to start? >> Fernando Orejuela: Stephanie start, since you're closest. >> Stephanie Shonekan: So I'm Stephanie Shonekan. I am chair of the Department of Afro-American Studies at the University of Massachusetts. I've been there just for one year. Before this, I was at the University of Missouri, and before that I was at Columbia College in Chicago. And before that I was in grad school in Indiana, which is where I met Fernando. And is that all you need to know for this part? >> Nancy Groce: Well and you're an -- >> Stephanie Shonekan: I'm an Ethnomusicology, yes. >> Nancy Groce: And you were -- and you and Fernando met at Indiana -- >> Stephanie Shonekan: Right. >> Nancy Groce: Department of -- >> Stephanie Shonekan: Folklore and Ethnomusicology. >> Fernando Orejuela: At that time it was Department of Folklore, but it has since become the Department of Folklore and Ethnomusicology. >> Stephanie Shonekan: And so, we had different paths. We were all trained in folklore, but -- and some of us also specialized in Ethnomusicology, which is what I did. And then, I have a minor in African American Studies. >> Nancy Groce: Okay. And Alison? >> Alison Martin: Yes. I'm Alli Martin. I'm a PhD candidate at Indiana in the Department of Folklore and Ethnomusicology. I'm on the Ethnomusicology side. I'm still very early in my career, as I'm still in grad school. But I started as a concert trained violinist at American University and then I took a class on the musical worlds in D.C. in which I quickly realized that if I did not study Go-Go music in this class about D.C. music that no one was going to. So that was my first time doing a project on D.C. And I kind of just fell into it from there. >> Nancy Groce: And are you from D.C. originally? >> Alison Martin: Yes. Yes. I'm from Prince George's County, Maryland which is right outside of the city, east of the city. I grew up in Largo and then I lived in Bowie for a long time. >> Nancy Groce: And how about you? >> Fernando Orejuela: My name's Fernando Orejuela and I started in the folklore program and discovered Ethnomusicology while I was a graduate student. But I proudly wear both hats; Folklorist and Ethnomusicologist. And I finished my graduate program and rolled into a position as senior lecturer at Indiana University where I teach courses in mainly that Ethnomusicology program. Then of course, like Stephanie said, that's where I met her and we were probably brought together by some faculty's members, particularly Ronald Smith [assumed spelling] who's an Ethnomusicologist and Dr. Porsche [inaudible] [assumed spelling] who's also an Ethnomusicologist. We kind of both have those ties. We're both realists and that we were part of a particular community of Ethnomusicologist at IU. >> Nancy Groce: And when did you two first meet? >> Fernando Orejuela: 96? 1996. >> Stephanie Shonekan: Yeah, I got there in 96. >> Fernando Orejuela: And I got there in 94. >> Nancy Groce: And did you start off as a musician? >> Fernando Orejuela: Actually, I did study classical piano for most of my childhood and -- >> Nancy Groce: And where did you grow up? >> Fernando Orejuela: In Cincinnati, Ohio. And I studied at the conservatory there at the University of Cincinnati. And then money ran out, so I stopped playing [laughter]. But discovered I guess folklore first. I was an English and Classics major and I took a folklore class and discovered that I could study people who looked like me and play music like me and do things that are not classical but treated as art. So that was my first discovery into the disciplines. >> Nancy Groce: How about you? Were you a musician? >> Stephanie Shonekan: No, not at all. I was -- I had gotten a masters -- so all my -- my undergrad and my -- my master's degrees are from universities in Nigeria. And my -- my masters was -- my thesis was the study of African American poetry and music. So I looked at Langston Hughes and Louie Armstrong, and Miles Davis, and Amiri Baraka. Right? >> Nancy Groce: But you grew up in Nigeria? >> Stephanie Shonekan: I grew up in Nigeria. First few years in Trinidad, which is where my mother is from and then later on in Nigeria. So during my master's I became really intrigued by the -- the ways in which black people expressed themselves. Because myself I was -- I was black, but I was from two different parts of the black world. And so that really fascinated me. Looking at the Caribbean. Looking at West Africa, but also looking at African American music and culture. And so, I got my master's in English, but with that focus. >> Nancy Groce: From where? >> Stephanie Shonekan: From University of Ibadan, which is in my mind, one of the best in -- in Nigeria, if not the best. And then, a professor of mine from Nigeria had come to a folklore conference, and he met with Stone at the conference. >> Nancy Groce: Ruth Stone? >> Stephanie Shonekan: Ruth Stone, yes. >> Nancy Groce: The Ethnomusicologist. >> Stephanie Shonekan: Yes. And Ruth Stone, he learned from her about the field of Ethnomusicology and so he -- he contacted me and said; I found the field for you [laughter]. >> Nancy Groce: Had you ever been to the States before? >> Stephanie Shonekan: Yes I had. I had been -- I had been to the States, but I had no idea about Ethnomusicology until my -- my professor, who was a Folklorist -- his name was Isador Epehu [assumed spelling] who studies African folklore. And so, he -- he put me onto it and I applied and got in. So I'm very grateful for that meeting between Epehu [assumed spelling] and Ruth Stone. >> Nancy Groce: So you all met in Indiana? >> Stephanie Shonekan: Yes. Well Alli is -- >> Fernando Orejuela: She's a current student right now. >> Alison Martin: Fernando's student, yeah. Yeah, so the co-chairs of my dissertation are actually Ruth Stone and Fernando. >> Stephanie Shonekan: That's interesting [laughter]. >> Alison Martin: It is. It is [laughter]. >>Fernando Orejuela: It's a small little world. >> Alison Martin: It is, it is. >> Nancy Groce: And, talk a little about this book Black Lives Matter & Music which Indiana -- >> Fernando Orejuela: University Press. Yes. >> Nancy Groce: Just put out last year. >> Stephanie Shonekan: That's right. >> Nancy Groce: So what led you to think about writing this? >> Fernando Orejuela: It happened progressively. At the SEM annual meeting, Stephanie put together a panel for us to talk about Black Lives Matter and music, and it actually evolved into certain things that were happening at that particular moment for both of us and the other panelists. >> Nancy Groce: What year was that? >> Fernando Orejuela: That was 2015. So that was the year really that it started kind of gaining momentum. And then, since that was a more of a roundtable discussion, we got together and said, let's do this at the American Folklore Society meeting and write papers about what we kind of fleshed out in the roundtable. And Alli participated at that talk. Langston who's a Botkin lecturer earlier -- >> Nancy Groce: Langston Wilkins? >> Fernando Orejuela: Langston Wilkins. Also an IU graduate in our program. Participated in that paper session and then we were approached by Indiana University immediately and they wanted to do that book in a very short period of time. Very short period of time. >> Nancy Groce: Can you talk a little bit about teaching African American culture at a university level and what the challenges are, the rewards? >> Stephanie Shonekan: So I'm currently the chair of a department that actually is called the W. E. B. Du Bois Department of Afro-American Studies, and we are really proud of that -- that title, that name. >> Nancy Groce: And that's at University of Massachusetts? >> Stephanie Shonekan: University of Massachusetts. Yes. >> Nancy Groce: At Amherst. >> Stephanie Shonekan: Of course, Do you Bois is from Massachusetts and he's a proud son, and we're proud to be named after him. But it reminds us that this field is old. Right? It's an old field. It's a field that goes back to the late-1800s when great minds were thinking about the knowledge that was being produced by the experiences of African Americans in this -- in this -- in this country. So I think -- I think of it as a very important field. I think it's a field that, you know, I get questions all the time from well-meaning folks about, oh you know, why don't you just study music in a school of music or in a department of music? Why do you have to have an African American studies department? And my response is always, you know, if I could trust that the schools of music or the English department or the art department would include in the curriculum, black -- black artists, black composers, black writers from anywhere in the black world, then we wouldn't need a department like this. But we're not there yet. Right? We do need to have a space that -- where we prioritize the works of people of color, black folks in particular, from the US and around the world. So it's a field that is incredibly important for all of us, you know. As much as I love to see black students in my classes, I think it's important for other students to be in those classes too because black history is American history. Right? So I think at this turn, we're in 2019 now, more and more of these departments are sort of widening their scope to include what's now called Africana Studies. Not just African American, but Africa and the Diaspora. And I think it's really important to remind ourselves of the historical connections. But also the nuances between what happened in Africa with colonialism and what happened in the Americas with slavery. And what happened in places like the West Indies which is part of the Americas, with both colonialism and slavery. Right? And what the impact of that is on -- on the people. So yeah, it -- it's a good field. It's an important field. And it needs to be continually supported by the academy. >> Nancy Groce: How about you? You're just started teaching. Right? >> Alison Martin: Yes. I don't have as much teaching experience as [inaudible]. But I really relied on and enjoyed the visibility of being a black woman teaching black studies and teaching Ethnomusicology. Because when I was an undergrad I had one black woman professor. And it was for a Gen Ed class. So it was kind of happenstance that it even happened. And one of the reasons I came to Indiana specifically was because of Ethnomusicology at Indiana you have people like [inaudible] and Mellonee Burnim, and Alisha Lola Jones, and all these people. And I wanted to be in, you know, in conversation with them. And so, one of the things that I do in my classes when we're talking about systemic racism and, you know, all these kinds of things, is I'll be like, raise your hand if you've had two or more black women instructors. You know, in your college career. And maybe one or two people will put their hand up. And I'll say, well, you know, put your hand up if you've had one or more, you know. And then I'll say, put your hand down if it's me. And then, there's not -- there's not many hands up because they just, you know, for some of them I'm the only black woman that they will have a professor and I'm a graduate student. And so I really sort of lean on that kind of visibility, because it's really important to see someone like me, you know, as -- as a teacher in the space. >> Fernando Orejuela: Well, for me, my experience is a little bit different. With regards to what I teach in particular, especially black popular music -- actually, it came up a little bit in the conversation, after the discussion. Or after the talks. About talking about black music to students who are interested, are consumers of it, and for hip hop in particular, since 1992, 72 -- 72 to 75% of the consumption has been by a white population. So it can be -- it is this generations popular music and not having a connection to why you do the sounds that you make or why you say the things that you do, why you rhyme the way you rhyme, you know, those kind of disconnections are not part of what culture study's about, African American -- African music making is all about. And so, it is more than just being some culturist and attaching yourself because you are connected to the scene because it's on trend. But it's probably for me, more important to understand that this is rooted in cultural manifestations of what West African music making is all about in comparison to what you might have learned in the music department of what European music theory is all about. And so, to diversify the ways in which we think about music, think about art, think about literature, culture as being part of a global system of meetings as opposed to just isolating it to the Europeanists that we get in our traditional classes. As an English major and a Classics major, you know, for me even taking an American -- this is back in the 80s -- taking an American Lit course, the Survey of American Literature course, it didn't have a single author who was a person of color. And that's 1980s, so we did have a lot of black authors that we could have used. There were Latino authors that we could have used. Asian authors that we could have used. To talk about the American experience. But that was -- that was exactly right. That is exactly why we do need departments of minority studies, minorities in this country, because that can still happen in education today. >> Nancy Groce: Do you think things are getting better? More diverse or staying the same? >> Fernando Orejuela: A little -- I would say yes. But also I'm confronted with those people who have to teach these kind of courses, this kind of literature. I wrote a kind of a handbook on the history of rap music and hip hop culture and it is target, you know, music school folks who are required now -- not by choice, but required to teach a popular music course, especially rap music. Because that will bring students -- >> Nancy Groce: And what's the title? >> Fernando Orejuela: Rap Music & Hip Hop Culture . So that's the book that I put together, but it is meant for an audience of teachers who are more required to teach it, don't really have the investment in the culture. But recognize the fact that to diversify the scope of music in a music school, they need to teach classes like this. >> Nancy Groce: You find that your students, especially white students who love rap music are interested or aware of -- of its origins? Or the cultural connections? >> Fernando Orejuela: In my experience -- I mean you guys can chime in too -- they usually are a little bit more shocked when they come into the classroom after they've been in it for a while. It's like oh, it's not what I thought this class was going to be about. I thought we were just going to talk about Jay Z and songs -- my favorite songs, basically. >> Nancy Groce: Yeah. >> Fernando Orejuela: You know, music appreciation. >> Nancy Groce: Is it like an easy credit for -- >> Fernando Orejuela: An easy credit, but also fun, Because this is my -- this is the music that I listen to and not recognize the fact that when I say toasting, that toasting the DJ in that tradition in the live components of the 1970s, it has a history that goes back to storytelling in African American 1800s, maybe 1700s tradition of celebrating an outlaw type figure. A person who's bold enough to stand up against anyone. And it's like okay, and that kind of follows re-versioning itself in gangster rappers or hardcore rappers personas and narratives. >> Stephanie Shonekan: I think there's often a pushback from students to -- who view this music as simply beat. You know, like it's just a beat. It's a good beat. You don't have to make a big statement out of everything that you teach. You know [laughter]? And -- and so it's -- I think it's important to remind them that actually this music has a really strong message that you should listen for as well. Yeah sure, enjoy the beat, but also listen to what's -- what's -- what these young -- these young artists have to say about the world that they're living in. Whether you're listening to Snoop Dog or Kendrick. Right? Compton is a place who most of you who buy this music will never go to, have never been to, and you need to listen to what they have to say about the community that they grew up in. So I think recently -- I just saw this on social media. Yo-Yo Ma said something about music and art has never been for art's sake. That it should do more. And so, one of my colleagues in the School of Music was just thrilled and excited about that -- that message. To which I kind of rolled my eyes [laughter] and said, well we've been saying this, you know, those of us who study African American music have been saying -- within schools of music have been saying that we need to get our students to really think about -- even if it's Jazz -- about what -- what does it mean that Jazz is from New Orleans or from St. Louis, or Kansas City? What -- what are these artists -- how -- how is the sound of the Jazz and the structure of the Jazz in these three places or four places or whatever? And what does that say about the ways in which people live in -- in those places? And how can we better understand the diversity of black life? Right? So -- so the music is always -- has always been about doing more than just giving you a sonic entertainment. Right? And sometimes I think back to -- back to your question Nancy, I think often students kind of pushback on that and are startled that this is actually a serious field of study. You know, I always tell them that the music that we are listening to in this class should be taken as seriously as a Shakespeare play. Right? And I want you to listen to it with as much intent and intentionality as -- as you would a text in one of your STEM classes, you know. And it takes a little prodding, but they come -- they come around to it. >> Alison Martin: One of the -- one of the things it made me think about when you said art for art's sake, one of the things I do in my classes on the first or second, you know, class meeting is talk about tattoos. And ask anyone if they have tattoos or tattoo ideas that they would like to share. And you know, sometimes you'll get a ton of people talking -- and I mean they talk about -- >> Stephanie Shonekan: And they love to talk about them. Right? >> Alison Martin: And they're talking about grief and, you know, people that they love and places that they love. You know, all these really intense things. And then I'll talk about mine. and then we get into this conversation about how art is not for art's sake. because here's this art that we wear on our bodies that's really important to us, so immediately we're like -- >> Nancy Groce: That's awesome. >> Alison Martin: We're doing this thing. >> Nancy Groce: So you're using it to get into culture and art and meaning. >> Stephanie Shonekan: And meaning, yes. >> Alison Martin: Yes. >> Nancy Groce: Absolutely. >> Alison Martin: Because I mean, they have really, you know, in-depth stories about family, friends, places, you know. >> Nancy Groce: That's a great way to get into it. >> Fernando Orejuela: And also ways of talk -- approaching it and saying, insider/outsider information, because -- may I see your wrist? >> Alison Martin: Yes. >> Fernando Orejuela: I mean, this may be important to some folks that know exactly what that means and others might not have a clue what that means. That's an interesting scribble. >> Alison Martin: Yeah. Yeah, so we -- they're always like, oh are you going to talk about yours [laughter]? >> Stephanie Shonekan: But you talk about yours first. Right? >> Nancy Groce: So what -- what are you working on now? What's next for you? >> Stephanie Shonekan: So I'm -- I'm really excited. I'm working on three different things. One of course is the class I talked about in the lecture; Race and the American Story. My colleague Adam and I are working on -- >> Nancy Groce: Adam? >> Stephanie Shonekan: Adam Seagrave. >> Nancy Groce: Where is Adam? >> Stephanie Shonekan: He's Arizona State University, and he's a political science scholar. And then -- so he and I are working on that project and the students gave us so much rich information and they've given us the permission to publish it. >> Nancy Groce: Just for this interview, could you reiterate -- >> Stephanie Shonekan: Sure. >> Nancy Groce: What you -- the description of the class? >> Stephanie Shonekan: Yes. Yes, it's a -- the name of the class is Race and the America Story. And we created this at Missou. >> Nancy Groce: Which is? >> Stephanie Shonekan: The University of Missouri. Because Adam and I both taught there at the time and were both sort of -- we wanted to challenge ourselves to figure out a way to get beyond the hashtags and to get beyond the little tweets that were coming out from every angle. >> Nancy Groce: It was a very intense time at University of -- >> Stephanie Shonekan: Yes it was. It was. So we -- we created this course, opened it up to -- it was a one credit course. We had text from the Declaration of Independence all the way to the Obama race speech, and -- and students were taken on this journey. And the classes -- we had five sections. They all filled. So we knew there was a hunger for more of an engagement in this -- in this kind of discourse. So we taught it then and then when we both moved -- he moved to Arizona State, I moved to Massachusetts. We both decided to continue teaching it, knowing that we would have very different students in these -- in these two states. And we brought them to a symposium in April in Arizona. We brought them all together in a room for a whole day. >> Nancy Groce: So you were simultaneously teaching it throughout the semester. >> Stephanie Shonekan: Yes, and then -- and we had the same syllabus. And then we came together. And so the students were really fascinated by each other's points of reference and points of, you know, their own world views from different worlds really in the United States. And so -- and so Adam and I are working on that project. We're going to continue it. So that's one. The second thing I'm working on right now is the Max Roach album We Insist . I'm doing -- I'm working on a project -- a book that kind of frames that album as a really important album to Africana Studies. And then lastly, I'm working on a project with a friend, a colleague, on the notion of skin bleaching in Africa and thinking about the psychological effects of colonialism that is manifested in women bleaching their skin to get lighter. So it's three very different projects, but it keeps me on my toes for sure. >> Nancy Groce: And how about -- how about you Alli? What's next for you? >> Stephanie Shonekan: Dissertation [laughter]. >> Nancy Groce: And the topic of your dissertation is? >> Stephanie Shonekan: Yeah, so my main focus right now is finishing my dissertation. My dissertation's tentatively entitled Sonic Intersections: Listening Gentrification in Washington, D.C. . And so, when I listen to gentrification I'm thinking about a number of different things that could be displaced in the Go-Go music that I was talking about today. I also have done a lot of work with sounds capes and thinking about, you know, the environment and how gentrification has really shifted the soundscapes of these -- of these neighborhoods. Some of this is about legislation. Things like the amplified noise acts in D.C. So all of these things sort of coming together and how we listen to them in D.C. specifically. >> Nancy Groce: And I know there's a member of your committee here, so I will just assume that it's going very well. >> Fernando Orejuela: She's doing very well. >> Alison Martin: I think it's going well. >> Nancy Groce: But I'm sure it's going well [laughter]. >> Fernando Orejuela: She's going at a very fast pace. I'm actually telling her to slow down [laughter]. >> Nancy Groce: But do you see your feature as teaching at a -- in higher education or? >> Alison Martin: Well, I mean, you know, a job market is a job market [laughter]. So we'll see what happens. I like -- I like to do a lot of different things. I really, really enjoy teaching and I enjoy any time I get the chance to teach, be it a guest lecture somewhere or a full class. But I also spent a year as a fellow at the Smithsonian at the Anacostia Community Museum. And I really enjoyed, you know, any kind of curatorship and that kind of work. And I also think that the work that I'm doing specifically is useful for the public. Because one thing that has happened to me, you know, in the time that I've been in grade school was that something I knew but I didn't have the language for them. And so where I knew things about Go-Go, you know, five, six years ago, I didn't have the language and the [inaudible] of black sound. And so, I'm trying to think of ways that my work can be useful to give people language to talk about things that they already know, but maybe, you know, aren't legible to, you know, the bodies that they need to be legible to. So I'm open to a lot of different things, you know. I'm looking. >> Nancy Groce: Putting it out there. >> Alison Martin: Just putting it out there. You know? But we'll see. >> Nancy Groce: You'll find something. And how about you? >>Fernando Orejuela: Well, I just completed two projects. But I started my program as a graduate student and I intended stopping at the master's and working in museums. So I had an opportunity to work with two museums projects. One was at the Carnage Hall. I was a music specialist for the hip hop section. >> Nancy Groce: The Carnage Hall in New York? >> Fernando Orejuela: The Carnage Hall in New York. Porsche [inaudible] working from a framework that she had created as far as the history and mapping of African American music since their arrival. But I also participating in -- as a hip hop specialist for the National Museum of African American Music in Nashville. So I just completed those two projects. And I teach a class on youth music scenes and social movements. And it's interesting that you brought up the hashtag business, because I teach three sections on Black Lives Matter, the Me Too movement, and the Never Again. And they're very different. And it's a very contemporary youth music scene that doesn't work in the same way that social movements have worked in the past. Black Lives Matter as a movement has had that connection that's more familiar to us from the 1960s civil rights movements. But the Me Too movement is far more diverse. There is no real soundtrack, but if we look at every musical genre, there is an example that talks about these issues. The Never Again movement is even smaller, but at the same time it speaks to a lot of young people -- teenagers in particular -- who've been the most active in protesting, in challenging legislators, and challenging city -- their own neighborhoods, their own parents. So musically that is kind of evolving as well. In Parkland, in Florida we have the children themselves writing their own music for themselves and then we have outsiders who are also engaging with talking about the issues. Not directly, but it's present. So that's slowly happening. I'm looking and anxious to see where that -- where that goes. Because like I said, they don't tend to consolidate the ways they may have movements in the past because they are communicating in different formats. Mostly in social media. But they are finding the connections through that format. So that's a research project that's fairly new and still exploratory. >> Nancy Groce: Sounds interesting. Now, what haven't I asked you about? What else should we know about you all? >> Fernando Orejuela: I think you asked us how we got into our pro -- or how we got into the things that we were doing. >> Nancy Groce: Yeah, I -- have you ever done rap yourself? >> Fernando Orejuela: I was -- actually one of the other classes -- I teach two hip hop classes. One's a large lecture with 270 and then one's a small one of 30, and we actually do have a rap battle in that class. So we all -- and sometimes they make me rap too. I'm not very good at it. My specialty is more on the diffused side. >> Stephanie Shonekan: Oh my god. >> Fernando Orejuela: And the dancing. So we also get on the dance floor and we'll -- we'll -- I'll teach them some moves. I do it in slow motion. I mean I can't show you now, but I've got my two knee pads on because age happens [laughter] and that's a dance form for young people. >> Nancy Groce: Yeah. >> Fernando Orejuela: But I'll show -- we'll get down on the floor. I'll teach them some moves and then like I said, we'll go out and look at some graffiti and -- not out in public, but on the chalkboard. So we do play with all four elements in that -- in a smaller environment classroom. So that's my experience with hip hop. >> Nancy Groce: Did you pick this up in Cincinnati? >>Fernando Orejuela: Yeah. >> Nancy Groce: I ask as a New Yorker, but. >> Fernando Orejuela: Well, I have some New York connections, but no, 79, 6th grade, rap music became a national phenomenon. >> Nancy Groce: Yeah it did. >> Fernando Orejuela: It seemed like it was just going to be a fad. But Sugar Hill's Rapper's Delight , every kind worth their muster knew all 14 1/2 minutes of those -- those verses. From beginning to end. >> Stephanie Shonekan: And I was in Africa and I learned all -- all those verses. >> Fernando Orejuela: Yeah, so this is -- >> Stephanie Shonekan: Sure did [laughter]. >> Fernando Orejuela: You know, it's one of those things that you still -- I can probably still recite at least half of them now. But -- and I also do that in class, just because they kind of forget that, you know, everyone had to do that. Because that's what kids did, and it was trend. That's what introduced you first to music. But then, when you realized that was a commercial product that had nothing to do with culture, and then all of a sudden they're connected to the dancing, connected to the graffiti writing, and that there were DJ's actually involved. Because we had student musicians doing that in the earliest days. And yeah, so once you connect the dots and recognize the brokenness of the rapping, the brokenness of the sample of the art, the brokenness of the shattered glass look of the wild style graffiti, the brokenness of the movements in the dance, it's schematically South Bronx broken neighborhood turned into a beautiful art form. And so, it's progressive. But yeah, it was introduced to me by the commercial product first. >> Nancy Groce: Interesting. Well, I -- I want to thank you all for coming. And we can continue this, but I think what we'll do is have you back in a couple of years and see where you are with your different projects. But thank you all for coming. IT's been nice to talk to you. >> Stephanie Shonekan: I appreciate it. Thank you. >> Fernando Orejuela: Thank you for hosting us.