>> Steve Winnick: Welcome. I'm Steve Winnick with the American Folk Life Center at the Library of Congress, and I'm here with Ann Yao and her husband, Li Wei, and we'll be talking about Ann's career as a musician. She plays traditional Chinese music, and we've had her in our Homegrown Concert Series twice now, most recently in the 2020 Homegrown at Home Concert Series. So, Ann and Li, welcome to the Library of Congress in our virtual way of doing this interview. We're really happy to have you. >> Ann Yao: Thank you. We are very pleasure to be invited. >> Steve Winnick: You are very welcome. So, let's start with a sort of early, easy question. Ann, where were you born and where did you grow up? >> Ann Yao: I was born in Shanghai, China, and grew up in Shanghai, too, with my grandparents. >> Steve Winnick: And you had music in your household when you were growing up, is that right? >> Ann Yao: Yes, yes. My -- >> Steve Winnick: Describe the musical household. >> Ann Yao: Yes, my grandfather was a famous pipa and the vertical bamboo flute player, and he was a leader in the Shanghai Traditional Ensemble Music Troupe. Not the troupe, called kind of like big orchestra. And my aunt is a teacher in Shanghai Conservatory. She teaches the guzheng. That's where I learned from. But beginning at an early age, I thought I would learn to play the pipa, learned from my grandfather. Then about a couple years later, I feel guzheng, is more interesting, sounds more pretty, and the technique seems easier for the beginner. So, I switched to the guzheng with my aunt. But my uncle was a teacher and was a professor, guzheng professor, in Shanghai Conservatory. >> Steve Winnick: So, when you were growing up, there was a particular kind of ensemble that your grandfather played in and directed, is that right? Could you describe that for us a little bit? >> Ann Yao: Yes, he established some friends, or musician friends, and since our home had, you know, space. So, it's kind of the place for all them to gather to play Jiangnan sizhu is typical Shanghai region area Chinese-style ensemble music. That's during 1930s, and he also had a trip in the US during World War II time for like money, kind of a tour trip. >> Li Wei: Some raising money to some of the soldiers, yeah, in the US and China I think, right? Yeah. So, is that the name called the [foreign word] ensemble? >> Ann Yao: [Foreign word], yes, yes, that's the original -- the group name. >> Li Wei: The ensemble. >> Ann Yao: Yeah. >> Steve Winnick: You were growing up within that musical tradition, that particular kind of ensemble. >> Ann Yao: Yes, yes. >> Steve Winnick: And you mentioned the pipa, which you played before the guzheng. So, explained that instrument a little bit, just because it's [audio blurbs]. >> Ann Yao: Okay, the pipa is the four-string vertical lute, like a pear shape. So, they also call like -- but the guzheng's a -- the technique to play is left and right, two finger. So, kind of sung like a pipa pipa. So, that's the kind of image in [audio cuts out] so they call it pipa, I think, what I get. Yeah, and the right hand, five fingers to play, and the left hand had a flexure, like a guitar. So, the left hand is for, you know, play, hold the instrument like -- yeah. >> Steve Winnick: Sure, but then, so I guess a child or a teenager, you switched to playing the guzheng, which is what you mostly play today. >> Ann Yao: Yes. >> Steve Winnick: And you ended up, you are playing with the Youth Palace Orchestra in Shanghai as a teenager. Is that right? >> Ann Yao: Yes, yes. >> Steve Winnick: So, what is that? Describe that for us, if you would. >> Ann Yao: It's, actually, I play solo most time. I really didn't join the ensemble or orchestra since my instrument is kind of a typical solo instrument. So, most time is for performing for the foreigners. A lot of -- during that period of time, a lot of China just opened the door for the foreigners. A lot of tourists or all kind of groups visited Shanghai. So, they would invite those youth kind of exchange culture programs that we performed for them. >> Li Wei: If I may, there is kind of a transition period between Ann's grandfather's time that the majority of the music activities, that time, in Southern China is primarily like ensemble based and not the solo. But, you know, just like the late 70s/early 80s, now because there's some reform of this instrument, tried to increase volume and make the skills more complicated. And I think there's also a tendency to imitate some of the Western music still. And also, it was the new thing at that time. So, that's when Ann started doing it, when it becomes kind of a solo instrument at that time. >> Ann Yao: Actually, tourism, definitely, yeah. >> Steve Winnick: So, people were, when you say musical instrument reform, people were adapting the instruments in order to sound louder but also adapt to Western scales and other forms of playing. Is that what you were mentioning? >> Ann Yao: Right. >> Li Wei: And also, a very point distinction. Back in Ann's grandfather's generation, the ensemble is really -- it's small. It's like an indoor ensemble, right, even though they can play also outdoors too. The notion is small, but it's very much improvisation. But, you know, eventually, they developed a larger ensemble for us to move to a concert hall, indoor. That's why, you know, it's very similar to like a symphony orchestra in the West. So, there's, you know, big development. >> Steve Winnick: Very interesting. So, one thing this opens up a little bit is there's a tendency here in the US, when we see music from other cultures, including China, but also India, Nepal, all kinds of cultures in Asia, to think of it all as some kind of folk music, even though it's a classical tradition at home. So, I guess, a question I have is what degree of the music you are playing, what amount of it was folk music versus what would be considered classical music or court music or other kinds of art music in China? >> Li Wei: Okay, I can -- I think this is a very good question, actually. You know, when we talk about, you know, classical music, actually, and we, you know, learn from both the conservatory or university system, Western classical music or classical, you know, like country music, or some other different genres, right? But, you know, since the advance of the similar study of the non-Western traditional music, it eventually, it becomes scientific study of not just the music. I would call this ethnic musicology, right? So, they localize. They actually have a classical music, and most notably in China, and in, sometimes, also Japan, too. Because they do have advanced music theories, you know, tunings, and music repertoires. So, I think, in that case, people who are Chinese, not all of them, okay, but when Chinese -- the first -- China's first conservatory, established in 1927 in China, is actually our conservatory. They, you know, introduced not only the Western music, but also, the traditional music. They're both taught about in conservatory. That's, you think about the, you know, the comparable to the classical music. but they still have their own distinctive tradition. >> Steve Winnick: Right. So, Ann, then, so you did attend the conservatory in Shanghai, and what was that like, the training that you had there? >> Ann Yao: From home, originally, I learned most is the Chinese music, you know, classical or traditional or some local different type of school, regional music, [foreign word]. After, in the conservatory, we learned the music theory, actually, the Western notation, also, Western music history. And but the time we went to the conservatory is after cultural revolution. So, a lot of class or some course is just established. Some still kind of tried to develop a new course or, so a lot of Western -- no, actually, not a lot. Just starting to have some Western group musician performance, you know, started to come into China. So, we kind of get and learn some modern music, like contemporary music, too. And my uncle, he invented a guzheng kind of since the Western instrument, Western culture, influenced China. So, guzheng, originally, is a pentatonic scale. So, several Chinese instruments tried to change to -- invent to what like a 12-tone instrument, like a dulcimer. It's one of the professors in Shanghai Conservatory kind of invent the dulcimer as a 12-tone. So, my aunt -- my uncle, he invented the guzheng is like a 12 tone guzheng. That's this -- the one I -- the first one to learn this instrument, the butterfly, because the shape looks like a butterfly. So, that's, you know, so, I'm kind of very interesting to challenge myself to learn different things. That's also, because a relative, I'm kind of lucky to get and using to start to learn. Yeah. >> Steve Winnick: And you had two different, distinct lineages that you studied, right? When you studied to play the instrument, you had two professors who had different regional styles. So, talk about the regions and the different styles of guzheng, if you could. >> Ann Yao: Yeah, I started with my aunt. She is learned from -- her teacher was Zhejiang. That's your typical Shanghai region, you know, Jiangsu and Zhejiang area, so near Shanghai. Those, the typical school, and my uncle was from the Northern China. He started in Tianjin and in Beijing. So, and also, he learned a different school like Hunan and Shandong. Those are all the old provinces, those schools, the local theatrical music related to the language, and also, the Hakka in Southern China. Because my uncle has learned different, you know, more schools than my aunt. So, I'm kind of lucky to get a chance to learn all the different schools from my uncle. After the conservatory, most of the time, I learned from my uncle. >> Steve Winnick: That's great. So, when you graduated from the conservatory, you ended up going to Beijing for a national ensemble. Was that a little scary to go to the big [audio blurbs]? >> Ann Yao: Yes, yes. Shanghai people just like New Yorker, you know? It's kind of a typical metropolitan area, grow up in the living style. So, Beijing is a kind of attractive city, too. But for living status, not as much convenience, the luxury, as Shanghai. So, the first time I went to Beijing, actually, I delayed the time. So, they be keeping calling to ask me to go there. But finally, I have to. I have to get a job. That's why I went there. And, but, it's kind of essentially young. So, still have some, you know, new thing to learn and to see. And Beijing, that time I went there, I feel very interesting place to stay, to live in, and also, culture is different in Shanghai. >> Ann Yao: It's also a very interesting period of time, which is kind of about to marry, because worked as a Shanghai soldier at the time. I was, you know, kind of graduated, and she -- you know, in that time, you don't get to take the job, and you know, the job pick you. So, it was kind of an assignment, basically, assign your job to Beijing. That time, I think, what and tried to say is material wise, Shanghai is more rich. Beijing is still behind Shanghai. Of course, there's a culture center but also a political center, right? So, a lot of dynamic life there. But for her music, I think Shanghai Conservatory have pretty good training, and that's why they wanted her to join the National Ensemble, yeah. >> Steve Winnick: So, how was it playing with the National Ensemble? >> Ann Yao: Unfortunately, I didn't stay in there too long, only a few years. But luckily, as soon as they pick in the ensemble, they are ready put me in the member for Olympic Arts Festival, too. So, that's why I went there, and we had like a special troupe. You know, they're separate with the big troupe ensemble group. So, we have a special training, have special training in a special place. We went to training for our Olympic Arts Festival. >> Ann Yao: And, if I may, because 1984, China first, you know, joined the Olympic Games in Los Angeles, and China sent a large delegation, including the [inaudible]. Yeah, so, luckily, Ann's also, in particular, in that ensemble, and it performed for the Olympic Games, yeah, as part of the cultural festival. >> Steve Winnick: Yeah, we remember those games and the celebration of China joining on this side, as well, of course. And it was just -- it was an amazing thing. So, did you play mostly within the Olympic Village during that? >> Ann Yao: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's only like a week or two. Then after the Olympic Games performance, we had a tour trip, you know, a tour performance in the US. So, kind of a fun life at that time. Yeah, still kind of a very, very interesting to memorize that. >> Steve Winnick: Right, and not that long after, you moved to the US. So, how did that come about? How did your move occur? >> Ann Yao: Yeah, because his lease, his study, he got accepted foreign student at Kent State University. So, I joined him about 10 months after he came here. So -- >> Li Wei: Yeah, and I think, also, we are very lucky, because that time, even though we just got newly wed, and the system in China is like -- because I -- we have a kind of a -- they call it hukou, this residential system. It's very rigid. So, you are in China. My wife, Ann, in Beijing. We cannot move freely unless you have a job in Beijing or she has a job in Shanghai, so we can move together. And so, finally, I said, well, maybe we can find a solution. We'll take it and move to US. That's how we got here, yeah. So, I applied for the grad program in the US. You know, first in Kent State in Ohio, then to New York two years later, and I transferred to Columbia in New York. So, of course, New York is much more, you know, lively and dynamic. >> Steve Winnick: Yes. I went to Columbia myself. That's my alma mater. >> Li Wei: Oh, yeah! >> Steve Winnick: So, we have that in common. So then, Ann, you were in the Sounds of China Ensemble in New York, or the Music of China Ensemble. >> Ann Yao: Yes, yes. >> Steve Winnick: Yeah, how was that? >> Ann Yao: That time, I was very, how shall I say? For the career, for the musical and for my instrument career, I feel music from China gave me a lot of opportunity to learn new things. A lot of modern Chinese composers, at that time, they are all in New York. So, we did a lot of experimental music together, like [inaudible], you know, those right now he's a very famous composer, modern, contemporary composer. So, at the time, I'm kind of lucky, the time I was in New York, and they all, you know, have some new music let us to try, and also, music from China is the pioneer for Chinese contemporary music group. So, we get a lot of chance to perform and with Western instruments or, you know, or the modern composers' music. >> Steve Winnick: Right. >> Ann Yao: It's a very interesting experience at that time. >> Steve Winnick: Thank you, and I should clarify that the ensemble is called Music from China. >> Ann Yao: Yes. >> Li Wei: Yes. >> Steve Winnick: The reason I made the mistake that I made, actually, is because we were talking about Columbia, and we used to have a radio show on Columbia University Radio called Sounds of China, which you probably heard when you are New York. It was the Chinese Students Association ran this radio show very, very efficiently, and I think it's still going on today. So, that's the reason I said Sounds of China instead of Music from China. I got confused for a moment. I apologize. But to move back to Ann's career, after a while playing with Music from China, you ended up moving to Florida, which is, you know, a whole other climate from New York, and of course, not a lot of opportunities there for traditional musicians. So, explain your move. >> Ann Yao: Right. Well, that time, and also, China has kind of the Tiananmen Square issue, and also, Li is about like a half way to the school, you know, [inaudible] school. So, I got to a friend, actually is a class schoolmate, had contacted me to see if I'm interesting to get a job as performing in a restaurant. The restaurant is, it's kind of a brand-new restaurant that just opened in the Orlando area. And I said, well, that's kind of a good opportunity to make money. At that time, we still were students and probably not able to work at that time. So, fortunately, and after this '89 event in China, so, the US government allowed all the Chinese students or visitors to be here able to get -- can work, can start work. So, I talked to some friends and asked their opinion. So, they suggested, well, that's not bad. You know, you can start, you know, earning money. You can start, you know, this -- it's good option. It's good opportunity. And also, you still play your instrument. >> Steve Winnick: Right. >> Ann Yao: I thought I would move down first, so he still continue studying at Columbia, and several years and also have Disney Epcot Center has the Chinese, you know, the China Pavilion. They also need a music ensemble or music performance there. So, I kind lucky friends introduced -- give us the opportunity to -- Epcot, at that time, was, you know, very, very good for cultural, you know, expression. So, they hire a lot of different music or performance [inaudible]. So, luckily, I got the job there. So that's -- >> Li Wei: Yeah. >> Ann Yao: And I perform in that, yeah. >> Steve Winnick: Yeah, so, it's true. You know, we interview musicians from a lot of different traditions, and a lot of them have gone through Epcot Center as their professional development, just because it was such a center for traditional music from different cultures. So, what was it like to play in the China Pavilion there? >> Ann Yao: Well, first, it's kind of exciting, and you're able to see all different cultural performance, too. And before we have -- starting we have three musicians together, and later, one musician starting to own business. So, he quit the performance. Only have two musicians. One of have dulcimer, have dulcimer, and my instrument. So, we kind of two musicians together play all of six/seven years. Then 9/11 start. You know, after 9/11, you know, all this entertainment getting kind of start to lay off. One of my partner lay off, unfortunately. So, I started solo things, that time. I think it was 2000, 2001, 2002, until they recently, well, actually, 10 years already, until 2010, they started cut all -- close all the show until right now all -- most -- 80% or 90% of entertainment is gone. >> Steve Winnick: We're sorry to hear that. Yeah, like I said, it was a great thing for traditional music of many cultures, but it was nice to know you were there playing traditional Chinese music all that time, yeah. So, one thing that I'd like to mention, too, the is you've worked with the Florida Arts Council as a master in their Folklife Apprentice Program. That's something that we love here at the library, too, because it spreads traditions in that way. So, if you could explain how you got involved in that and explain your apprenticeship, that would be wonderful. >> Ann Yao: Yes, you know, I was teaching when I was living in New York, too. So, but also, of course, Florida, it's different environment. Cultural environment is different as New York City. New York City has more Chinese people and more opportunity to have students. But here, it's kind of hard. Fortunately, I got several students. They're interested. And the first student I got, is five or six years old. She's living in Melbourne. It's about an hour-and-a-half driving from there to Orlando, my home. >> Steve Winnick: Yeah. >> Ann Yao: And her mother is Chinese, and her father's American. So, they, the girl is interested to learn to play the guzheng, because of her aunt has a guzheng at home. So, she just played that liked the sound. So, they searched, finally found me. So, I started teaching her, and she's pretty good. She got like a two times apprenticeship. Yeah, and later, after she go to college, went to college, then stopped to learn. And the other one, recently, I got one about two years ago. It's from a local, and she is a high school student, and almost finished high school. But she kind of interested from a movie her saw. So, she likes to learn that, and she's a very smart, very quick pupil, you know, to pick it up. So, that's why a couple months later we think maybe she can apply for the apprenticeship for that [inaudible]. That's the reason why she can't apply right now, COVID, she cannot continue that way, and she went to college. Kind of more busy from her own school works. >> Steve Winnick: Yeah, I hope when the pandemic calms down, you'll be able to have students again, because it's so important to spread the tradition to the next generation and let students learn. So, one thing I'd like to talk about a little bit is the guzheng itself, the tradition behind your instrument and how it's changed over the years. So, explain just how, you know, the historical development of the instrument, as you understand it. >> Ann Yao: Yeah, the instrument originally is small. So, the size is small, only like five strings, like silk strings originally in China used most of the instruments -- the string instrument uses silk. And later, the times changed. The instrument, you know, getting expanded bigger and bigger. During 1950s, especially Shanghai, the factory, the instrument factory, they kind of developed the 21-string instrument. Then also, the string changed to nylon and metal. So, it makes the sounds louder, and, you know, and play on stage. The 21 is kind of more standard size right now, and also, it's a pentatonic scale. So, like it's four octaves, and normally, we'll use the right hand to pluck three or four fingers on the right hand to pluck the strings. And now, for traditional music on guzheng, left hand only press the string, and there's a bridge holds the string, divides the two sides, the right side to pluck the string, to pluck the melody for tuning the tunes. And the left side is for the left hand press the string to create the vibrato or bending notes. Until like after 1960s, a lot of the Western cultural influence to China, so, composers, or guzheng musicians, they arrange some songs composed the songs with Western techniques, like a harp or piano. So, the left-hand started to play -- join with the right hand. >> Steve Winnick: And so, and also explain the butterfly guzheng, the one that you played here. >> Ann Yao: Oh, sure, yeah, the butterfly guzheng is actually like combined two guzheng together. So, originally, the guzheng play -- stand on the one side, the right side, you know, the guzheng, on the edge. Butterfly just combines two guzheng together. So, I was sitting in the center, the middle, of the instrument to play, you know, both sides, kind of like the two instruments have a wall, but the string is across there's the wall together. So, there's like 12 tones actually divided by, you know, half. So, 12, like a six, yeah, six one side, six to the other side. >> Li Wei: Center playing. Yeah, so, I think, basically the so-called butterfly guzheng fundamentally changed the way you play, because it's chromatically tuned. So, tried to accommodate some new compositions modern compositions. You can freely transpose more, you know, different tunes. Because traditional guzheng can only play, you know, one kind of -- >> Ann Yao: One key. >> Li Wei: One key. Then if you wanted to play different, you have to move back and all these bridges, you know? But that one just, you know, free you up, you know, play freely. >> Steve Winnick: But you'd have to learn everything new, because the plucking is completely different strings, right, yeah? >> Ann Yao: Right, right, right, right. >> Steve Winnick: Yeah, interesting. So, but it does for you, also, to play a wider range of music. >> Ann Yao: Still you've got four octaves, but you have the chromatic scale where you can play like I -- because it doesn't have a composer to compose the music yet. So, we just use the West like a [inaudible], you know? And also, a cello piece [inaudible] the-- what's it called? >> Li Wei: Yeah, it's a -- >> Ann Yao: Piano? >> Li Wei: Yeah. >> Ann Yao: The groups? Song. >> Li Wei: It's a song, yeah. >> Ann Yao: It's a song. >> Li Wei: A song, yeah. >> Ann Yao: Yeah, yeah. >> Steve Winnick: But there is -- there have been some compositions by modern composers, Chinese composers, that you performed on concertos and things like that. Is that correct? >> Ann Yao: Yeah, that concerto is the traditional music. Yeah. >> Li Wei: I think some, yeah, there is one recording made is still based on traditional guzheng, but it was also traditional tuning, but what is the modern composer? I think that one of the [inaudible] music, oh, [inaudible], right? >> Ann Yao: Yeah, but not on -- >> Li Wei: The traditional turn, but you have to tune differently. >> Ann Yao: Yeah, change the tune. >> Li Wei: So, it sounds very avant-garde. >> Ann Yao: Yeah. >> Steve Winnick: I see. >> Ann Yao: That's, you know, what I kind of challenge myself during the time living in New York. So, that time we, with the Music from China, and allowed a new composer. They just tried to see how the instrument can do, you know, how widely the musician can play. So, that's why I have to kind of establish some different scales, you know, different keys. That's kind of an interesting thing to do that. >> Steve Winnick: Absolutely. So, another project that I want to give you the opportunity to mention is you worked with our colleagues at the Smithsonian and played on a piece that had ancient Chinese bells as part of -- >> Ann Yao: Oh, yeah. That's [inaudible] that compose the music. Actually, that time, is the Yo Yo Ma and [inaudible] kind of starting have idea for The Silk Road Project. This is kind of gave opportunity to show this music. It's kind of starting The Silk Road Project, right? >> Li Wei: Yeah. >> Ann Yao: Yeah, so, that's the performance that have a half Chinese ensemble, half Western group instrument ensemble. Yeah, it's quite interesting to play, but the music style still is not a very modern. It's kind of a traditional way to play, but with a chance to play the really ancient, ancient gong. I think it's the gong. >> Li Wei: It's a bell. >> Ann Yao: It's a bell? Oh, yeah, it's a -- I mean, the Smithsonian, they allowed us to play that, and of course, not touch it, and the people playing have to wear gloves. >> Steve Winnick: Right. Yeah, that's amazing what the Smithsonian has in their museum, and it's like us at the Library of Congress. We have such wonderful treasures, including now two concerts by Ann. So, I guess we're about to wrap up, but I'd like to ask. I know that the pandemic has caused a lot of musicians to have to rethink and retool. How are you guys doing in the current situation? >> Ann Yao: I just try to see if any opportunity, ask me to do this kind of virtual performance. That's what I do then, and after Library of Congress and the Richmond Folk Festival, I also done with one Wu Man, the pipa player for Autumn Moon Festival with the Kronos String Quartet. >> Steve Winnick: Oh, the Kronos, yeah, Quartet, yeah. >> Li Wei: It's California, right? >> Ann Yao: It's in California, yeah. California, so, that's -- >> Li Wei: Since it's a virtual concert, you know, it's a norm. The new normal. >> Steve Winnick: Yeah, it's weird, and yet, it's liberating in certain ways, because you can play anywhere, but it's imperfect, of course, in other ways. So, we're so happy to have had you in the series again, and we're so thankful to you and to Li for doing this interview, as well. So, we just wanted to say thank you one more time, and I see you've got another photo. >> Li Wei: Yeah, I just, you know -- I just -- if I may. This is Ann's aunt. >> Steve Winnick: Oh, right, okay. >> Li Wei: She is like 80. >> Steve Winnick: Oh, beautiful. >> Ann Yao: Yeah, she's [audio cuts out] yeah. >> Li Wei: So, another photo I want to show you is 2012. You know, I regularly took students to China for field study. This is where we stopped in Shanghai, because you'll see, this is a very simple kind of room, small room, but this is still alive, so-called the silk bamboo tradition, silk and bamboo tradition, silk and bamboo music tradition. Set in the back is Ann's aunt. This, you know, old tradition is still alive in Shanghai. We glad, you know, her family is still -- family members, you know, still doing this. >> Ann Yao: And this is my grandfather when they tour in US during 1930s. >> Steve Winnick: Oh, great. Great. So, yeah, so, I guess that's another question that we didn't address. So, if we could, have you been able to go back to China and play music there since moving to the US very much, or is it harder to move back? >> Ann Yao: I didn't have any chance to do that. >> Li Wei: Yeah, I think for the first 20 years, she even didn't get a chance to get like a -- because of visa issue, right? >> Steve Winnick: Yeah, right. >> Ann Yao: Sixteen years. Yeah, I haven't go back -- I haven't been back -- have any chance to do that. >> Li Wei: Yeah, I think for the first 20 years, she even didn't get a chance to get like -- because of visa issue, right? >> Steve Winnick: Yeah, right, 16 years. >> Ann Yao: Sixteen years. Yeah, I haven't go back -- I haven't been back with my family or relatives until 16 years after I left China. >> Steve Winnick: Wow, that's a hard separation, but we're glad that you came here, because we're so thankful to have your music here. So, I guess I just want to say thank you one more time from the American Folklife Center at the Library of Congress to Ann Yao and her husband, Li Wei. Thank you so much. >> Ann Yao: Thank you. >> Li Wei: Thank you. >> Ann Yao: It's our honor.