>> Marie Arana: Hello
and welcome
to our Behind the Book
series, brought to you
by the Library of Congress.
My name is Marie Arana, and
I'm the Literary Director here
at the Library of Congress.
In this new series,
we'll be taking you
on a behind the scenes journey
through the fascinating,
high stakes, high visibility,
yet often mystifying world
of American book publishing.
What goes on behind every book?
How does it go from an
author's imagination
to that coveted place
on your bookshelf?
How do bestsellers or
literary masterpieces get made
and designed and publicized
and marketed and sold?
Who are the people
who make that happen?
Well, we intend to give you
a peek behind the curtain
and show you how
the process works.
As we go, we'll be introducing
you to the unsung heroes,
unsung to the general public but
celebrated within the industry
and the writing profession
who do this vital work.
In this particular
program, we focus on one
of publishing's great
American editors,
those talented visionary
individuals who take a book
from idea to finished work.
They need to be big picture
visionaries on the one hand,
but demanding and
precise on the other.
They need to be tough on the
page and the negotiating table,
yet kind and inspiring
to their authors.
They're the first stop in
the process, the gatekeepers
who see a work in its rawest
form, recognize the talent,
negotiate the contract,
and then guide a book
through all the rest.
You've certainly come to
the right place to learn
about this career because our
great American editor today is
the legendary Nan Talese.
Talese is a Senior Vice
President of Doubleday.
Since 1990, she has been the
publisher and editorial director
of her own imprint,
Nan A. Talese Books,
known for publishing such
notable authors as Pat Conroy,
Ian McEwan, and Peter Aykroyd.
And, of course, the
hugely popular phenomenon
Margaret Atwood.
Nan was born Nan
Ahearn in Rye, New York.
Her father was a banker.
Her mother hailed from
an old Houston family.
She grew up largely
in Connecticut,
graduated from Manhattanville
College,
got a job as an accessories
editor at Vogue Magazine,
and met and married
writer/reporter Gay Talese,
one of the early practitioners
of the new journalism.
Author of many bestsellers
himself, including "The Kingdom
and the Power," "Honor
Thy Father,"
and "Thy Neighbor's Wife."
Nan and Gay's parties in
their Upper East Side New York
apartment became renowned
for the glittering literati
who attended them, Allen
Ginsberg and many, many others.
Nan's wide-ranging tastes from
literary fiction to biography
to history and narrative
nonfiction have shaped American
reading habits over
the past five decades.
Known for her keen eye and
discerning editorial notes,
Nan has made an indelible
impression on the world
of publishing since 1959
when she joined Random
House as a proofreader.
She was later promoted to
literary editor, the first woman
to hold that position
in a largely male world,
working with such
writers as A.E. Hotchner
on his international
bestseller "Papa Hemingway,"
and Robert Penn Warren's novels
"Flood" and "Wilderness."
Nan went on to have renowned
stints at Simon and Schuster
where she edited "Schindler's
List" by Thomas Keneally
and at Houghton Mifflin
where she acquired
"The Handmaid's Tale"
by Margaret Atwood and,
"The Prince of Tides"
by Pat Conroy.
Wherever she went, she
took her authors with her.
That stellar list is far
more than I can mention here,
but it includes Antonia Fraser,
Thomas Cahill, Jennifer Egan.
Her books have been nominated
for many prestigious awards,
including the Booker Prize,
the National Book Award,
and the Pulitzer Prize.
In the past year alone, Margaret
Atwood's "The Testaments"
which then published won
the 2019 Booker Prize,
Alex Kotlowitz's "An American
Summer" won the 2020 J. Anthony
Lukas Book Prize.
Joining Nan today in our program
is her author and dear friend
of 50 years, Margaret Atwood.
Margaret really needs
no introduction from me.
Her works more than 50
books of poetry and fiction
and critical essays and
graphic novels are known
for their uncanny ability to
tap into the real world mindset.
In addition to "The
Handmaid's Tale,"
now an award winning TV series,
her novels include "Cat's Eye,"
"Alias Grace," "The Blind
Assassin," "Oryx and Crake,"
"MaddAddam," and most recently,
her sequel to "The Handmaid's
Tale," "The Testaments."
We are truly fortunate to
have Margaret Atwood join us
in this tribute to Nan Talese's
remarkable editorial career.
It's such a delight to welcome
you to the Library of Congress,
Nan Talese and Margaret Atwood.
>> Nan Talese: Thank you.
>> Marie Arana: Both of you,
just absolutely thrilling
to have you here.
Can you tell us where
you're speaking from?
Nan, where are you?
>> Nan Talese: I'm
in New York City.
>> Marie Arana: Wonderful.
Margaret, where are you?
>> Margaret Atwood:
I'm in Toronto City.
>> Marie Arana: Terrific.
Terrific. Well, great to have
you here virtually with us
at the Library of Congress.
Nan, I want to start by
saluting you for the work
that you've done as one
of the great American
editors of the past century.
On behalf of the
Library of Congress,
thank you for your long,
remarkably productive
and trail blazing career.
You've given us many wonderful
books in the past 60 years.
You've paved a path for
generations of women
who followed in your footsteps,
and it seems we've caught you
at just the perfect time because
at the end of this month,
December 2020, you're going to
hang up your proverbial spurs.
>> Nan Talese: Right.
>> Marie Arana: And, begin a
well deserved retirement, right?
>> Nan Talese: Yes.
>> Marie Arana: Well, wonderful.
Well, congratulations,
and we're really.
>> Nan Talese: Thank you.
>> Marie Arana: Really happy
to be sending up these candles
and these fireworks for you
here at the Library of Congress.
>> Nan Talese: Well,
I'm delighted to do it.
I think the Library of Congress
is wonderful, and I must say,
I'm very awed by the fact
that you've chosen me
to be one of the editors.
>> Marie Arana: Wow.
Well, and well chosen,
I would say.
Margaret, thank you for
joining us for this.
I don't think there's anyone
who has a better perspective
on Nan's editorial
personality and her career.
Would you give us a little
cameo on how that friendship
and working relationship began?
>> Margaret Atwood: Yeah.
So, it began because Nan
moved to Simon and Schuster
and then published
one book there
with a man called Dan Green who
was actually Head of Publicity,
but he wanted to have a little
side caper as an editor.
And, he acquired "Surfacing"
which he had first promoted
as a hunting and fishing tale,
thereby annoying a lot of men
and turning off a lot of women.
Then, when they figured out
what it was actually about,
it acquired its second audience.
And then, Nan came into the
picture for "Lady Oracle"
and was my editor at Simon and
Schuster until she vamoosed
to Houghton Mifflin, ultimately
dragging me along with her
to Houghton Mifflin, and
then she skippity hopped
over to Doubleday and
dragged me along there, too.
And, here we, and then
she became Nan Talese,
her own imprint.
And so, we've had a
number of incarnations,
and I thought I would read you
a piece that I wrote in 2005
when Nan was given the
first Maxwell Perkins Award
for being a super editor.
Maxwell Perkins was one
of those, as you know.
So, that's why the award
is named after him.
So, this was 2005.
How fitting it is that Nan
Talese should be the first ever
recipient of the
Maxwell E. Perkins award,
named for such a towering
giant and American editor.
Nan would not wish to
be called a giantess.
It would offend her sense
of what is proper in a lady
and make her worry
about her figure
which has always been enviable.
But, let us just say that she
looms very large, as it is fine
to loom large without
actually being so.
I first met Nan in the mid-1970s
when she became my editor
at Simon and Schuster.
She looked like a
1920s flapper then,
bearing an uncanny
resemblance to Coco Chanel,
a book on whom she
would later publish,
and she still looks like one.
Though, Nan does
not, in fact flap.
She is one of the most
unflappable people I know,
preserving her serenity through
crisis after publishing crisis.
Like, Dylan Thomas's aunt
in "The Child's Christmas
in Wales," she is known for
saying the right thing always.
The New York publishing world
is filled with Walter rallies
who would gladly lay their
cloaks across mud puddles
for Nan to step on, except
that she doesn't need
to step on cloaks.
She merely jumps across the
puddles while pretending they
aren't actually there.
After we'd shared some
publishing adventures at Simon
and Schuster, Nan departed
for Houghton Mifflin
in the early 18 - 1980s.
Say 18.
>> Nan Talese: Not that long.
>> Marie Arana: Not
that long ago.
>> Margaret Atwood: She made
an ambush-like blind offer
on my risky novel
"The Handmaid's Tale,"
bidding on it sight unseen, and
thus made publishing history.
That item just keeps
on going in many forms.
It's been a film and
an opera and a ballet
and is now a television series.
Despite her Miss Manners
capabilities, Nan,
like all noteworthy
publishers and editors,
is a risk taker at heart.
Indeed, a gambler, and she
has certainly gambled on me
for which I am dearly grateful.
Shortly after the publication of
"The Handmaid's Tale," Nan leapt
over to Doubleday,
which at that moment was
in a rather shoddy condition.
"Why are you doing
this terrible thing?"
I asked her, dismayed.
"I like a challenge,"
was her reply.
"I'll begin with the covers.
There must be beautiful covers."
New broom in hand, she
began busily sweeping
and redecorating,
helping to form the thing
of splendor you now
see before you.
Needless to say, I followed
her to the new address,
hoping for the best, a hope
in which I have not
been disappointed.
Through all these
changes of abode,
Nan has kept the editorial face,
faith, in the publishing world
in which bean counter and
bottom line have become powerful
determinants dictating which
book shall see the light of day
and which not, Nan has
stood witness to the fact
that literature there are more
things to be counted than beans
and more lines to be taken
into consideration
than the bottom one.
Lines of prose, for instance.
Her list has been
noteworthy for its commitment
to literary excellence.
I expect she has a
secret wall where she pins
up the many notices of awards
her authors have won just
as steeplechase writers
pin up their rosettes.
I sometimes think of Nan as
a daring [inaudible] driver,
dashing through the snow
just ahead of the wolves
with her authors piled
on precariously behind.
It's been an exhilarating
ride, though with here
and there a scream worthy moment
as Nan has veered unexpectedly
and dangerously around a corner.
At more tranquil times,
I remember with fondness a
favorite saying of Nan's,
"Rise above it," a phrase
I inserted into my novel
"The Blind Assassin" as
a hidden tribute to her.
Whatever the "it" may have been,
Nan has indeed risen above it.
She's way out there.
Dear Nan, congratulations.
>> Nan Talese: Thank
you, Peggy so much,
but you know the amazing
thing is that this belongs
to the authors, not to editors.
I mean, to publish authors
such as Peggy, Margaret Atwood,
who writes so beautifully,
is no trick.
I mean, it just says, "Take me."
And, it's been wonderful to have
her on my list all the time,
and she's brought to me
some wonderful writers,
including Valerie Martin,
and you know, it's just,
she's just been a
joy to work with.
>> Margaret Atwood: Well,
there are stories, Nan,
of you shutting yourself up
for six weeks with 2000 pages
of somebody else's manuscript
[inaudible] out of it with,
you know, a manageable
500 pages.
So, you have done those things.
>> Nan Talese: I did that.
That was, you're talking about
Pat Conroy when Pat Conroy came
to me and he gave me a 1500
page manuscript which I read.
And then, the editing I
did in terms of cutting
and shuffling things around,
I eventually put on six pieces
of yellow piece of paper, and
those papers, I understand,
are now resting in
the, in South Carolina
in a building named for Pat.
So, that's very pleasing.
>> Marie Arana: Well, I
remember that Pat actually said,
"I hand Nan the manuscript,
and she finds the book in it."
>> Nan Talese: That's right.
>> Marie Arana: So, I always
thought that was charming.
>> Nan Talese: But,
he's the only one
who I think has ever done that.
I mean, to such an extent.
>> Margaret Atwood: Well,
to such an extent, yes,
but others have done it.
So, yes, let us go back to
the origins of all this, Nan.
Dialing back through time and to
the moment where whatever put it
into your head that you
were going to be an editor
because this was kind of
a boy game at the time.
>> Nan Talese: It was because I
had just graduated from college,
and I was in Vogue Magazine, and
I think I had just been married
to Gay Talese the writer or we
were intending to get married.
And, an editor from, Gay was at
that time at the New York Times.
An editor from Random
House approached him
about reading a book and asked
if he would come
into the office.
And, he said, "You know, let
me have Nan take my place
because she reads all the time.
It's much better that
you have her than me."
So, I went into take
the meeting which I did,
and I met Albert Erskine
the Editor-In-Chief.
And, he handed me a
piece of paper and said,
"Find the errors in it."
And so, and at one point,
he turned to me and said,
"You know, you can
use the dictionary."
So, I corrected it and
gave it back to him,
and I was hired on the spot.
>> Margaret Atwood: You
must have been well trained
by the nuns.
>> Nan Talese: No, it wasn't.
It was just reading
all the time.
I always read, and happily,
most of the writers I
read were very good.
So, I picked up good
habits from them.
>> Margaret Atwood: So,
then they hired you as what?
>> Nan Talese: They hired
me as a copy editor,
and I remember I worked
on all of Joe Fox's books.
He was a very, very
admired editor at that time.
Philip Roth and Truman
Capote were his authors,
and there were some
others as well.
But, in copy editing, sometimes
I would actually edit them
and talk to Joe about it
and say, "I think we should,
this follows chapter
seven, and etc., etc."
So, then, so they
eventually made me an editor.
>> Margaret Atwood: So,
this was at Random House.
>> Nan Talese: All of
it was at Random House.
>> Margaret Atwood: Yeah.
So, did they have
air conditioning yet?
>> Nan Talese: I can't remember.
Yeah, I think we did.
>> Margaret Atwood: =
So, this would have been
in the late '50s or early '60s?
>> Nan Talese: No, it
must be the middle '60s
because I graduated from
college and then went to Vogue.
No, I think it was probably
in the beginning of the '60s.
>> Margaret Atwood: Yeah.
You can usually figure
out by dialing back
to your wardrobe at the time.
[inaudible] there weren't
any miniskirts yet, right?
>> Nan Talese: I guess not.
I don't know.
Can't remember.
>> Marie Arana: But,
Margaret says a very important
and good thing which is that it
was really a boys game, right?
It was all the editors
were male.
>> Nan Talese: It was entirely,
and the fact that they hired me
as an editor was
sort of extraordinary
because there weren't any
women editors at that time,
or certainly not
at Random House.
Or, if there were, they
did children's books
or cookbooks, and that was all.
And, I wanted to do literary
fiction and nonfiction.
So, I did.
>> Margaret Atwood: When you
went to Simon and Schuster,
did they headhunt you and offer
you a job as a real editor?
>> Nan Talese: They offered
me a job as a Senior Editor,
so I must have been, had.
>> Margaret Atwood: You would
have been a Junior Editor
already at Random House.
>> Nan Talese: No, I think,
but I think Random House
had already promoted me
to Senior Editor.
Anyway, then I went to Simon and
Schuster, and that's where you
and I began as a team.
>> Margaret Atwood:
That's right.
Yeah, it was, first it was
Dan, and my funny story
about Dan Green is that he
was afraid of leaving New York
because he thought that
if he left New York,
he'd never be able
to get back to it.
And, I talked him into going
a conference in Montreal
at which point he
lost his passport.
[ Laughter ]
Worst fears realized.
Am I going to have
to stay here forever?
I'll never be able to
get back to New York.
>> Nan Talese: Funny.
Funny.
>> Marie Arana: Well, one thing,
you know, when you went to Simon
and Schuster, though, Nan, you
already had a very large feather
in your cap, right, because you
had published "Papa Hemingway."
And, you were [inaudible] all
those boys out of the water.
You had blown all those boys
out of the water with that book.
You had defended a
court case, right?
You had to step up and say
that Mary Hemingway
couldn't stop you.
So, you had a bit of fame before
you actually went to Simon
and Schuster and
ganged up with Margaret.
>> Margaret Atwood: Ganged up.
I'm not sure that we
would put it exactly.
[ Laughter ]
>> Nan Talese: But, I mean, I
think the key to all publishing,
and therefore to
editors is good writing.
And, even though the
book, second book of hers
that I published was a very
different sort of book,
it was still, this was
"The Handmaid's Tale,"
it was still a wonderful book.
And, I think that that is
this thing that's marvelous
about publishing,
or at least it was
at the time that I was there.
>> Marie Arana: Yeah, Margaret,
I want to ask you about,
because you had been
publishing poetry, and in fact,
your current book is a
wonderful book called "Dearly,"
and it's a wonderful
collection of poetry.
But, you had been publishing
poetry, and then you had gone
into with "Surfacing," right,
into the fictional form.
Do I have that right?
No?
>> Margaret Atwood: No.
No. It's the following story.
Okay, in Canada in
the '50s and '60s,
it was almost impossible
to publish a novel.
It was very hard because the
few publishers that existed
at that time either
didn't publish novels,
like Oxford University Press, or
they would, but they would have
to have a U.S. publisher
and/or an English publisher
because they thought that the
audience wasn't big enough
for novels in Canada at that
time to justify the expense.
So, my first novel was
called "The Edible Woman,"
and the publisher was
Canadian who made a deal
with Andre Deutsch in
England with Peter Davison
of Atlantic Monthly
Press in the states.
So, it was published in all
those three countries, but not
yet with Nan because she
was at Random House or Simon
and Schuster at the time.
So, that was the first novel,
but I had been writing
novels all along.
It's just that I hadn't
been publishing them.
I'd been writing short stories.
I'd been writing novels.
"Edible Woman" is actually
my second finished novel.
The first one, praise the Lord,
didn't get published, thank you.
Thank you, Fate.
It was promising.
What can I say?
>> Marie Arana: What
was your impression
of Nat when you met her?
What was your sense of her?
I know you've referred
to her as being this
with her trademark pearls and
her white beret and can you?
>> Margaret Atwood: Well,
she was always very stylish,
and her story is that she
got that from her mother.
And so, her mother would
have been actually a flapper.
So, she did have the trademark
pearls and the white beret,
and I think she's
still got them.
So, yes.
>> Nan Talese: The pearls
I certainly wear a lot,
and I now have berets
in various colors,
all of which come from Canada.
>> Margaret Atwood: Where
in Canada do they come from?
>> Nan Talese: I get it
through the internet.
>> Margaret Atwood: So, we
don't actually know who's making
those berets.
[inaudible] we do not know.
Anyway, they always
look good, Nan.
>> Nan Talese: I like them.
They're very comfortable,
and it doesn't matter
how hard the wind blows.
They do not come off.
>> Margaret Atwood:
There you go.
>> Marie Arana: I love
that mental image.
I also love that image of you
in that wonderful photograph
by Eric Bowman, I think
it is, who, you're lying
on a sofa in your office.
And, you're looking as if work
takes absolutely no effort
at all.
We can see the pearls, and
there's no beret, I don't think,
but your desk is behind you,
and it's bristling with pencils.
And, there are manuscripts
in front of you
with handwritten notes, and just
behind you are these two loyal
companions of yours, your
dogs, and you make editing look
like a charmed life, Nan.
>> Nan Talese: Well,
it is, in a way.
It really is a charmed life.
I mean, there I was
being paid to read,
which I would have done anyway.
And, I, you know,
and I discovered some
wonderful authors.
One thing I have to tell you
about Simon and Schuster.
There was an author, Thomas
Keneally, who's Australian,
who had done a number of books,
and I thought I had read them.
And, I thought he was
very good, and he said,
"I've been in this leather store
in California, and saw this file
that this man keeps, and
it's all about the people
that a man called
Schindler saved.
He saved their lives," and
I very much wanted to do it.
And, I said, "Would you
put it in as a proposal.
So, he did, and I brought it to
the President of the company,
Dick Snyder, and Dick
didn't want to do it.
But, I kept after him.
I sort of wore him down, I
think, and from that moment on,
I published Thomas Keneally.
>> Margaret Atwood: Why
didn't Dick want to do it?
>> Nan Talese: I don't know.
I don't, I think probably
because he didn't think it was
very commercial, but it turned
out to be a huge success.
And, of course, the movie
was a wonderful success.
Anyway. Why should
one be paid for that?
>> Marie Arana: Can you
characterize the difference
for us, Nan, between Random
House in terms of the character
of the place and
Simon and Schuster?
Was there a difference?
>> Nan Talese: There was
a difference in a way
because at Random House,
people never spoke directly.
Everything was sort of indirect,
and Alice Mayhew was a colleague
of mine, and she had left
Random House to go to Simon
and Schuster, and she said to
me I really should come to Simon
and Schuster because
people talk very directly
about what they mean instead
of going around the bush.
So, I went over and talked
to an editor and I went
to Simon and Schuster.
>> Margaret Atwood: And,
were you happy about that?
>> Nan Talese: Not terribly
because I had to
fight, as I did.
I just told you a story
of Thomas Keneally.
I had to argue for a number
of my books, and anyway.
It was there that I got in
great trouble with Oprah
because I published
"A Million Pieces,"
which I was told I
should publish as a novel.
And, I said, "No.
I think that the book."
I said, this was my
conversation with the author.
"Should be published as
nonfiction because James writes
about the experience
of being an addict."
And so, we published it
as a nonfiction book,
and Oprah got very upset
about a couple of things.
I had to defend James
Frey who was terrific.
He's gone on to other places.
But, I think it was
just a question.
I mean, I really thought that
the book made the reader feel.
>> Marie Arana: Yeah.
And, what you're saying,
Nan, reminds me of something
that Ian McEwan said
about you and that is
that you are a tigress
for your authors.
And, I can see you
defending James Frey,
and I remember very well the
brouhaha around that book.
But, you are somebody who, as
McEwan says, really not only,
you know, works on the
manuscript and whips it
into shape or digs that
book out of the manuscript
as Pat Conroy says, but also,
you know, in the heat of things,
when authors are taking heat.
You're there defending as well.
So, that's very rare.
>> Nan Talese: Yes.
I remember there was a meeting.
All the editors and the
publisher and they said
that they would never
do what I did,
and they thought it was sort
of shocking having portrayed
something as nonfiction
when indeed it was
just adjusted.
So, we published
it as nonfiction.
>> Marie Arana: Can you tell us
a little bit, Nan and Margaret,
about your relationship
and how you work
and what are the characteristics
of that relationship
and how does that
dynamic work between you?
>> Margaret Atwood: Well,
a couple of anecdotes.
Do you remember the time when
we stayed at your house, Nan.
>> Nan Talese: Uh-huh.
I do.
>> Margaret Atwood: Graeme, I
made Graeme sleep in the bathtub
because we had a small baby.
>> Nan Talese: A little baby.
>> Margaret Atwood:
You had a new baby,
and he was having a
migraine headache,
and he was groaning a lot.
So, I thought, all right,
you're going to have to sleep
in the bathroom because
otherwise,
you're going to wake
up the baby.
[ Laughter ]
>> Nan Talese: I
didn't know that.
>> Margaret Atwood:
You didn't know that.
And, the other thing
we used to do, well,
there's that other time.
Remember the ice storm, Nan?
>> Nan Talese: I guess so, yes.
>> Margaret Atwood: Okay.
So, it was, remember the
Santa Monica earthquake?
>> Nan Talese: Um-hmm.
>> Margaret Atwood: Okay.
So, I was supposed
to go to New York,
be on the Charlie Rose show, and
then fly to California and go
to Santa Barbara
via Los Angeles.
So, as I was going down the
runway to get on the plane
for New York, there was a TV,
and they were having an
earthquake in Los Angeles.
And, I thought, uh-oh.
I'm not going to be able to go.
So, I get to New York.
I do the Charlie Rose show, and
they start having an ice storm.
Remember that?
>> Nan Talese: Yes.
>> Margaret Atwood: And,
me and Marly Rusoff ended
up having a pajama
party in your house.
>> Nan Talese: I remember that.
>> Margaret Atwood: That
I wasn't supposed to be,
I was supposed to be on a plane.
But, of course, they'd
all been canceled,
and I couldn't phone anybody.
All the phones were down.
So, we had a pj party at
your house, and I decided
to chance it through San
Francisco the next day,
and Marly in her dressing gown
and slippers ran across the road
to a hotel to get a taxi.
>> Nan Talese: I didn't
know about that part.
>> Margaret Atwood:
Well, it was very funny.
And, I got into the taxi from
your house, and it turned
out that that was the first
day he'd ever driven a taxi.
[inaudible] goes on from there.
I did eventually make it, so
that's another adventure I had
at your house, and the
other thing we used to do.
You and Phoebe, my agent,
and Vivian my other agent
and sometimes people
from England would come,
and we would all have
dinner or breakfast.
We would have something to
eat, and I would give each
of you a bag, and inside the
bag would be the manuscript.
And, it would be appropriately
wrapped in a color to go
with your personality.
>> Nan Talese: My blue ribbon.
>> Margaret Atwood: Yes.
You got blue.
And, Vivian always got purple.
Phoebe got mauve.
So, then, you would all
go off, and you would have
about 48 hours to
read the manuscript,
and then we'd all
get back together,
and you would have your notes.
Remember that?
>> Nan Talese: Yes, I do.
>> Margaret Atwood: And, it
was at the Winston Arms Hotel
which was somewhat falling down,
and the Windsor, I'm sorry.
And, you had a chaise
lounge in your room.
And, that's what you liked
about it because you liked
to lie down to read books.
>> Nan Talese: With my knees up.
>> Margaret Atwood:
That's right.
So, we did that for a while
until we didn't do it anymore.
>> Marie Arana: Well,
sounds like a lot of,
you two have a lot of fun.
Nan, I'm sorry to interrupt.
Please go.
>> Nan Talese: No, it's true
because the editor in Canada,
Louise Dennis, has been her
editor as long as I've been.
So.
>> Margaret Atwood: It was
Ellis Ellington before.
>> Nan Talese: Yes.
>> Margaret Atwood:
She unfortunately died,
but Louise has been
around, certainly.
>> Nan Talese: But, it was
really, it was terrific,
because we are all a
team, and it was all
for Margaret, for Peggy.
>> Marie Arana: You two make the
author/editor relationship sound
like a lot of fun.
I'm sure it's not a lot
of fun all the time, Nan.
Are there, you know, is there?
>> Nan Talese: Well, I
mean, there are times
that I suggest something
to the author
and the author won't do it.
And, you know, it's there that
I remember this is when I was,
it must have been when
I was at Doubleday.
And, Ian sent me a manuscript,
and unlike his previous
manuscripts,
he really had to do some work.
So, I sent him, I think it was
a six page letter asking him
if he would do x, y, and
z, and so he went back
to the manuscript, and I
remember sending [inaudible]
who was then the publisher
coming into my office
and saying, and he had published
Ian when he was in England.
And saying, "Well, I see Ian
took all your suggestions."
That's the only time I really
thought I had lost an author
by suggesting, by
making suggestions.
>> Margaret Atwood: Was
he annoyed to begin with?
>> Nan Talese: I don't know.
He was in London and I was here.
>> Margaret Atwood: Did he
write you a zippy letter?
>> Nan Talese: No.
>> Margaret Atwood: No.
>> Nan Talese: He went
back to the manuscript.
>> Margaret Atwood: You
weren't going to lose him, then.
>> Marie Arana: So, did
he take your advice?
>> Nan Talese: Yes.
He, I can't remember, but I
think he did if Sonny had said,
"I see he took all
your suggestions,"
but Ian is an author
that came to me
because I came, went to him.
I had heard about him, and I,
he sounded like he
was exactly the sort
of author I should publish,
and so I was invited to go
down to the Iowa
Writers' Workshop which is
where he was at that point.
Because Jack Leggett,
who was an author
and also he had published Gay
at Harpers, thought I should go
down and read the manuscript.
And, I remember reading
the manuscript
and then walking across,
along the banks of the river,
and at first, my heart
just fell because it was
where the plot was very much
like a book I had
just published.
And, but the writing
was so wonderful,
and so I published it, and
that was "The Cement Garden,"
and then I published
him from then on.
And, once, we were going
to do a contract with him
for his next book, and I
said, "What is the title?"
and Ian said, "But,
that's your job, not mine."
>> Marie Arana: So,
you published "Amsterdam"
and "Atonement".
>> Nan Talese: Everything.
>> Marie Arana: And, "On Chesil
Beach" and "Machines Like Me"
and all of that extraordinary
career that Ian McEwan has had.
Do you introduce your
authors to each other?
I mean Margaret, have you
met Ian McEwan through Nan?
Or, you know, does this happen?
>> Margaret Atwood: I think it
was through Nan, but of course,
Nan was the connection.
Yes.
>> Nan Talese: It was
writers conferences.
>> Margaret Atwood: At writers
conferences, at literary things
which of course those kinds
of festivals didn't
exist until the mid-70s.
>> Marie Arana: Right.
>> Margaret Atwood: At all.
And, even sending
readers across the country
to give presentations
of this or that kind,
that wasn't happening
in the '60s either.
It all got going in the '70s.
>> Marie Arana: So, but
you have such a, I mean,
you don't only do fiction, Nan.
You also do nonfiction.
You've done Antonia Fraser.
You've done Tom Cahill.
You've done, right across the
board, fiction and nonfiction,
and can you characterize
for us the difference,
or is it the different
hat you put on,
a different chops that you need?
>> Nan Talese: I don't think so.
I think that for all
of the manuscripts
that I have published,
first of all,
if the writer is a good writer.
Secondly, that he introduces or
she introduces the characters
so the reader can go along with
the story through the character.
And, also, that it's
really about something
that is serious and
that will last.
And, those are the three things
that are important to me.
>> Marie Arana: So, it's
really is, so how would you,
for instance, tell
us a little bit
about working with
Antonia Fraser.
What is that like?
Those incredible [inaudible].
>> Nan Talese: [inaudible]
one does.
I mean, with Antonia, she
has published in London.
So, they prefer to use, you
know, I don't usually edit her.
I just publish her.
A question, I will ask her about
it, but it's up to her to do,
you know, make a change or not.
>> Marie Arana: So, that's a
very different relationship
from say, Tom Cahill.
>> Nan Talese: Yes.
>> Marie Arana: Can you
characterize the way
that you work with him, for
instance, on his nonfiction.
>> Nan Talese: Well, I have
the early part of the book
that he will eventually,
that I'll eventually publish.
But, it's really, I mean,
for instance, if there are,
if you don't feel that you're
going along with the author
in the story, whether it's
fiction or nonfiction,
I say so to the writer.
>> Margaret Atwood:
Not only my attention.
>> Nan Talese: Right.
It's not how we want attention.
For whom I will jump up
from the bed immediately
and run do something else.
>> Marie Arana: One thing that
I think people will be curious
about is how has the industry
changed since the time
that you started
working together
in what [inaudible] right.
So, how has the process,
the spirit, the character
of the time changed
in a publishing house
for both of you?
>> Nan Talese: Well,
one of the things,
which Peggy already mentioned,
is author appearances.
The editor will also send
the galley of the book
to certain people to say,
who seem appropriate to see
if they have a quote,
which we didn't used to do.
Also, the reviewers,
we are much closer
to reviewers than we used to be.
But, I think mainly it's,
and it's even more so now,
and it's going to be for the
future, immediate future.
It's much more, it
was, publishing used
to be the center
was the authors.
Now, the center is how many
books sell and who is going
to be a bestseller, not.
And, I've not necessarily.
In fact, I mean, we talk
about Peggy and Ian.
I mean, I never thought
about being bestsellers.
I just thought whether
they were good books.
>> Marie Arana: And, indeed,
that's how it turned out.
How, so the times have
certainly changed,
and has your professional
relationship between the two
of you changed in any way?
>> Margaret Atwood: You
know, it does happen.
We got older.
>> Nan Talese: But,
we got older together.
>> Margaret Atwood:
Yeah, so let's talk
about different technology.
So, when I started, I was
using a manual typewriter,
and I thought it was
the greatest thing
since sliced bread when electric
typewriters got invented.
And then, I thought it
was even better than that
when you had these
bouncing ball typewriters
because you could
take the ball off
and put another ball
on and make italics.
How great was that?
And, then, I thought it
was really extraordinary
when they invented
the fax machine
because I could send pages
to my typist because I needed
to have a typist then
because I couldn't,
basically type the way,
I couldn't make a
clean manuscript.
I was too bad at it.
And, I would have to
send pages to my typist,
and I could send
them via fax machine.
How great was that?
And, then, along came
the personal computer.
And, at that point,
you became expected
to produce print ready,
digital manuscripts.
>> Nan Talese: True.
>> Margaret Atwood: True.
So, you had to do the, do a
lot of editing on your thing.
You could no longer
type out the little,
remember those little strips
of white that you would type.
>> Nan Talese: The change on it.
Yeah.
>> Margaret Atwood: Or the
white brush with white out on it
that you would then
type on top of.
You couldn't do that anymore.
And, remember letters?
I got some great
letter from Nan.
That got replaced by
faxes and then by emails.
>> Nan Talese: Yeah.
Now, we do a lot of emailing.
>> Margaret Atwood:
I do emailing.
We do a certain amount
of talking on the phone,
but we always did
talking on the phone.
So, all of those changes, and.
>> Nan Talese: And, that's
the story of the industry,
of how the industry has changed.
>> Margaret Atwood: Yeah.
So, I think the sausage,
the line of sausages,
because guess what, authors
are not the only author.
Has always been a
great shock to me,
realize that there
are other authors.
So, publishers will have a list,
and it will be a spring list
and it will be a fall list.
And, I think the time between
finishing a book and getting
on the list has become longer.
So, Nan.
>> Nan Talese: Well, I
think that is not true.
It's usually nine months
from beginning to end,
and you forgot there's
a summer season.
There's spring, summer,
and fall.
>> Margaret Atwood:
We used to be able
to put things out in six months.
>> Nan Talese: Yeah.
I mean, it varied, but we
would, we still do bound galleys
and send them to people and
send them to critics as well
so they can get a head
start on everything.
And, but I think the main
difference is the expectations
from the corporations
that buy us
of amount of money we bring in.
And, the thing is, when
Peggy and I started together,
you were not a bestselling
author,
and now you are a
bestselling author.
It's a question of
growing with the author.
>> Marie Arana: Right.
Right. Well, you've done
that successfully,
both of you together.
It's quite admirable and
such a long relationship.
How important is the
social whirl to publishing?
It's become more important for
authors now that they're sent
on tours and made to
appear time and again
and to have a platform,
as they say.
But, how important is it?
>> Margaret Atwood: Well, there
is a social whirl at Frankfurt.
Remember Frankfurt?
>> Nan Talese: Oh, yeah.
Right. That's right.
Frankfurt.
I remember once particularly,
there was a book that I had
under contract, and someone
came to me and went to the agent
who happened to be in
Frankfurt at the time.
And, she said she was going
to make an offer on the book,
and I said, "Have you read it?"
"No, haven't read it at all."
But, she was doing it completely
on the reputation of the author,
not out of any knowledge
of the book.
>> Margaret Atwood: Uh-oh.
>> Marie Arana: I have
to explain to the viewers
that Frankfurt is a
very famous book fair
at which rights get traded
and rights get sold before
you even know there's a book
on the way or the public knows
that there's a book on the way.
But, yeah.
>> Nan Talese: And, that's
particularly important,
books that are translated from
various, like, from, you know,
from French and German
or what have you.
>> Marie Arana: Nan, what
advice would you give
to a young person?
>> Nan Talese: I think
most people start
as an editorial assistant.
>> Marie Arana: Right.
>> Nan Talese: And, they read
manuscripts as they come in
and say to the editor
whether this book
or that book is worth
reading and why it isn't
so the editor can talk to the
agent, literary agent of that.
But, I think that it's,
the wonderful thing
about being an assistant is you
can practice anything you want.
I mean, you can make
suggestions if you want.
You can say, "I think the
title is not so good."
And, they're very good.
I used, I had a wonderful,
wonderful assistant,
Carolyn Williams, and she
could really do anything.
She's now an editor.
But, she, through
working with me, you know,
learned the process
of the whole thing.
>> Marie Arana: And,
what's the secret sauce?
What is it that you think made
you succeed as you did, Nan?
>> Nan Talese: I think
it's just loving reading.
I don't think there's
anything magical about it.
It's just loving to read
and then also identifying,
I think it's true what
people would be interested
in as "Schindler's List."
I mean, I thought it
was a wonderful book,
but I thought there really
was an audience for it.
>> Marie Arana: And,
boy, were you right.
Absolutely right.
Well, I want to thank
both of you for helping us
to understand the
most important,
certainly fundamental pillar
of the publishing process,
this full editorial
magic, right,
the bond between the
author and the editor.
Much of it is so subjective
that it's mysterious.
>> Nan Talese: It's
very subjective
about whether you
like a book or not.
I mean, another editor might
like a book, and it's published
and to wonderful, but
I might not like it.
>> Marie Arana: Right.
>> Nan Talese: I mean, it's very
important that both the editor
and the writer think of
the book in the same way.
Don't you think that's
true, Peggy?
>> Margaret Atwood: Yes, I do.
Up to a point, but I was going
to ask you a question
which was this.
Have you ever had a book
that you absolutely loved
but you couldn't
stand the writer?
>> Marie Arana: Good one.
>> Nan Talese: One doesn't
come to mind immediately.
>> Margaret Atwood: Well, you
don't have to say who it is.
>> Marie Arana: You
don't have to identify.
>> Margaret Atwood:
Has that ever happened?
>> Nan Talese: Yes.
>> Margaret Atwood: Yes.
Okay. Enough that.
>> Marie Arana: Yeah, yeah.
I'm sure that must happen.
I mean, really, it is kind
of a chemistry, right?
You have to know what you can
work with that person or not.
[ Multiple Speakers ]
>> Margaret Atwood: But,
you don't like the book.
That can happen, too.
>> Marie Arana: Right.
>> Nan Talese: That's
very difficult.
But, I'm fascinated by the fact
that now with COVID-19 going
on for so long and
being so international
that the book industry
is doing very well.
Because except for television,
and you can't go to the movies
because movie theaters
don't allow you in.
So, people have turned
to the book,
and that's all to the good.
>> Marie Arana: Absolutely
all to the good.
So, thank you, Nan, for
letting us have this glimpse
into your editorial magic.
I do think.
>> Nan Talese: Well, let me
say one thing before we go.
As the loyalty of authors
is really marvelous.
>> Marie Arana: Yes.
Yes. That's so important, and I
don't think, given your nature,
you would tell us about all
the hard knocks and the sweat
that goes into the
editorial process,
all the work that it entails.
>> Margaret Atwood: A lot.
>> Marie Arana: But, I just
want to say the Library
of Congress is really,
really proud
to tip its collective
hat to you.
>> Nan Talese: Thank
you very much.
>> Marie Arana: Lifetime
achievements.
It's really quite wonderful
to see the long trajectory
of what you've done, and I
want thank you, Margaret,
for bringing us closer to the
writer's perspective in all
of this, in the editorial
experience.
Your insights are so
essential as an author
to frame Nan's career
and the, and what it is,
actually that great editors do.
So, and for all of
you out there,
thank you for joining us for.
>> Nan Talese: Thank you
very much, and thank you
for making this happen.
>> Marie Arana: And, having
us celebrate together a great
American editor, Nan Talese.
Thank you so much.