>> Stephen Winick: Welcome. I'm Stephen Winick of the American Folk Life Center of the Library of Congress. For many years we've presented the home grown concert series featuring the best in folk music and dance from around the world. In the year 2020 because of the global pandemic we shifted to producing an online concert series which we call home grown at home. So now in 2021 this is our second year of home grown at home concerts. We were very happy this year to team up with the embassy of Finland to present Annamaret, the first Sami artist that we presented in our series. Now one challenge that I have in doing these interviews is pronouncing the names of people from a wide variety of cultures. So rather than introducing Annamaret, I may ask her to introduce herself by telling our viewers your name. So please welcome to our series and please tell us what you call yourself. >> Annamaret: Hello. Yes. I can represent myself and I also want to say that I'm really happy to be part of this concert program, and it's really cool also to get to talk a little bit about the music and the background of the music. So but my name first. Actually you did quite a good job. So I pronounce it Annamaret. So you are totally going to the right direction. And that is my given name and my surname is Nakkalajarvi-Lansman. And then I have the Sami name that contains my father and my grandfather and if you wish also great grandfather. So that is [inaudible]. >> Stephen Winick: Excellent. Well, thank you so much. And again welcome and thanks for being with us today. So now we were talking just before we started about the fact that you wore some Sami accessories for the camera. So could you tell us a little bit about them, about what you're wearing? >> Annamaret: Yes. Definitely. First of all this is like the Sami [inaudible] you could say. This is the traditional hat from our Sami costume, and it's made by my aunt. And actually I got married wearing this. So this was like made for me when I was getting married so it's a really special accessory. Yes. And of course yeah. It is made for me. So you can't buy it from the store. So like you can see my family from this style, how the -- this how do you call it, like these bands are organized in there. This -- like there is a lot of cultural meanings. So if someone who knows the tradition knows the costumes sees me wearing this hat it's possible to tell where I'm from or where my family is from. Yes. And then there are these earrings, and these big silver earrings are really popular at the moment in the Sami fashion world. So I also have joined to this fashion world and I'm wearing this silver. But this has also this like traditional Sami form from [inaudible] the traditional brush. And this is round. And then there are these small parts that make this sound. Can you hear it? And the sound is making bad spirits go away. So there is also like a functional meaning in this sound and these are found also in other jewelry. And then there is this is the traditional brush. I'm wearing one, and then when we have the costume on then we wear like many of those. Or actually you can decide because there is not -- there are no regulations. So like you can decide how you like it. So if you want to wear only one, it's possible. But you can also wear a lot if you want. And then I actually have this necklace. I just wanted to add some color. So these pearls I have ordered from Canada from one native American handicrafter. So that's quite cool. And then I put this Sami jewelry there that also has this sound. So there are lots of meanings even if I'm not wearing the whole costume. Just the hat and the jewelry. Part of the jewelry. >> Stephen Winick: Very beautiful. And so I mean that sort of opens the door to talking a little bit about Sami history and culture. What do you think we need to know about that, about your people's culture and history? >> Annamaret: Well, first of all Sami people are the only indigenous people living in Europe and our area that we call Sapmi covers areas from Russia and from Finland and from Norway and from Sweden. And of course these colonial borders came after our culture was established and we don't recognize them in that way. Like, for instance, my families to the Norwegian side and to the Finnish side so we don't have these national borders in that sense. And of course we have the Sami language and we have Sami costume tradition and then we have these like traditional livelihoods and one of them is the reindeer herding. And maybe fishing is another -- and hunting are the main livelihoods. And the history is colonial history because the colonial nations came in to our area and started to rule here. So we have been living and we are still living under these colonial circumstances. But of course nowadays we have much more opportunities to live independently and to take care of our culture and language than, for example, 50 years ago. So I think we are going to a good direction, but there is still a lot to do. >> Stephen Winick: Sure. And so the countries that you mentioned, which -- in which Sami exist have sort of different relationships with the Sami people. And how are things in Finland now? I mean I know that, for example, your music was featured in the national independence day broadcast last year. So there's some recognition for Sami culture now. Is that right? >> Annamaret: Yes. I think you are right. I think Sami culture is something that it's really interesting for the majority. And it's really nice and really great that we have more opportunities to tell about our culture and our situation. And about our rights as well like what are our human rights and what should we like -- what should we like getting from the society as an indigenous people? And what is the need of protection of our cultures and languages? So like, as I said before, the situation is getting better, but there are still some major problems in the Finnish system at the moment. For example there is ILO 169 agreement with the United Nations. Finland hasn't signed it. So but Norway, for example, has. So there are some like major human rights issues still going on even if we are living in 2010. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. >> Annamaret: Oh. No. 20. Sorry. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And yeah. So we certainly hope that all of -- that things just get better from here. It's good to know that it's better than it was 50 years ago, as you say. One thing that you mentioned was that you ordered some of your beads for your necklace from a native American person in Canada. And that opens the question of the connection between our indigenous peoples in North America and the Sami people. What can you tell us about that? >> Annamaret: Yeah. It's quite magical actually. I of course have heard about it from, for example [inaudible] texts. He's a big artist [inaudible] artist from Sapmi. And he has done a lot of like cooperating with other indigenous peoples. And he has been writing about it and I have been listening to his stories from him since my childhood. So this was like a matter that I knew. But then I got to experience it actually when I went to Canada and I was having a concert there. And then there were some indigenous tribes from that area, from [inaudible] area in the same event with me. And then we got to know each other a little bit and I got to experience their way of thinking and way of thinking about the land and importance of the land and the spirits. And so on. So I like actually lived the text and stories I heard in Sapmi. Like it was true then, and it was magical because it's said that we are like sisters and brothers and I truly felt that. >> Stephen Winick: And this connection is spiritual, but it's also historical. Right? That is the connection is one of migration ultimately. >> Annamaret: Yeah. I could say so. Indigenous peoples have like the same history in the colonial -- same colonial history. It's of course a little bit different in different like areas of the world, but still the basic thing is the same. >> Stephen Winick: So of course you are primarily a musician. And your music incorporates Sami musical traditions and also other music. So let's begin talking a little bit about Sami music, if you would, and tell us about joik. >> Annamaret: Joik is the vocal music of Sami people, and actually in our music tradition there are no instruments or there have been these drums, these like frame drums, but when the missionaries came here they like saw the connection between the old religion and playing the drum so they just like took the drums away and burned them and [inaudible] museums in Europe. So this drumming tradition is lost. So the joik is -- it's vocal expression. And there are other vocal music styles as well in Sami, but joik is the most known. And I think the other vocal music styles are a little bit like joik, but not joik actually. They have different names. So it's maybe easier that we only talk about joik right now and because that's only my -- that's my family's heritage also. So that's the most easiest thing. But in joik it's like a special way of thinking. The joiks are dedicated songs. And that means that the joiker describes the objective of the joik with joik performance. So, for instance, if I was joik an animal, let's say a bear, I would try to describe the bear with the whole performance including the melody and the rhythm and the use of lexical words and use of joik [inaudible]. And then giving a lot of feeling to the joik and describing the joik. So actually the joik is the thing you are joiking. So that is a little bit different than singing of something. So there is this like huge philosophical difference in the thinking in joik if you compare it to western songs. Maybe [inaudible] and actually this dedicated song thing is also known in some of the Siberian indigenous peoples. So it's something that is common for indigenous music I would say. But in joik there is like a short melody line and that is repeated and repeated again and again. And it's said that joik doesn't have a start and it doesn't have an end. So it just comes from somewhere and then it's here and then it disappears again. So it might sound that it's like simple, but it's not because even if the melody's like short and really doesn't have a wide range or it's not harmonized, but still the joiker uses his or her voice really like magically and does this all kind of improvisations that are part of the culture and are supposed to be done inside this culture like in this joiking way. So there is a lot of hidden information also in this how to perform joik thing. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. A lot of times in music traditions when an outsider listens to it they hear just the outline. They don't really hear the micro variations and improvisations that you're talking about. That's true in a lot of traditional musics, but I think in joik it would be, you know, very much the case that the outline is what, you know, outsiders hear. So it's great to know about what's going on underneath all of that because I think that's very important to know that it's not as simple as it might sound when you first hear it, that you have to listen for a while and really get -- you know, get inside the song a little bit. So thank you for explaining the joik a little bit. Now how did that affect -- you of course went off and had a music education. So how did your grounding in Sami music affect your music education later? >> Annamaret: Yeah. That's interesting. I start with Sami music totally. I started with learning these traditional songs and I heard it in the radio and in concerts and in my society. So that was like starting point, but then somehow it was quite popular at that time to mix things and I think it's really popular right now as well. So I really liked playing instruments, and somehow when I started to study the clarinet and I got some great teachers and great materials particularly and great music in that side I just like somehow got on that track. And I went to that world, to the classical world. And it was actually quite easy because everything was ready there. There was like big schools and good teachers, educating teachers. And there were like methods how to teach and how to learn it, how to practice. And even if I would have liked to learn more of joik at that time, I think it would have been a lot harder because there are no like institutions that help in this. And so that was like how I started with the music with studying classical music. And I think like this Sami music has always been there because instrumental music is quite imaginative and you like imagine things when you play. And you get like feeling to the playing. And I think it's quite similar with joiking because in joiking you also have a strong feeling and an image what you are joiking. So I really like find similarity there. And I never like -- even if joiking was in the background many years, I never forgot it. I was always listening to that, and I actually also joiked and I had some like concerts with joik also. But I considered at some point that clarinet, classical clarinet, is my thing. But then I ended up doing just different things. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. And if you -- so let's talk about the Annamaret band a little bit because you hear a little classical music in it, and you hear some jazz in it as well. And of course you hear the Sami influence. So how did you start creating this music? >> Annamaret: Yeah. I met this Finnish [inaudible] lyre player, jouhikko player, Ilkka [assumed spelling] I met him when we were studying in the concert or in [inaudible] in southern Finland. And then we had just some coincidence and we tried to do it like combine jouhikko and then joiking, and that like worked immediately and somehow these two sounds belonged together because jouhikko has this really somehow ancient archaic sound in my -- to my ear. And then this joiking also has the same character. So it was somehow like match made in heaven. And I have known Ilkka since and we have done a lot of different things in between, but then at one point we started to do these joik jouhikko things again and it was really great. And then I wanted to like really do an album with joiks that I have composed in a traditional style and of course a little bit [inaudible] style as well. But the traditional style well like was the starting point. So I thought if I want to add some instruments to this I really want the jouhikko is there. And then we talked with Ilkka that how could we like somehow make it even more full, this our sound. And we didn't want to go to like to arranged -- to arranged music. So it -- because in joiking it's really important to have the opportunity to do the improvisations and have some like musically like time wise freedom. And so -- and it's of course possible when you have only two like if you are playing a duo. So you can react and like quite easily. So we wanted to somehow like keep this and then we thought that it would be nice to try to put this like organic electronics under this or to the beat between this or something like that. And Ilkka knew this player [inaudible] who does the electronics for us. Us and it was Ilkka's vision that his creations and compositions would go good with our duo's music. So like that was the story. And of course it's like because joiks are like these small fragments repeated again and again. When you are living in this modern world and you want to do concerts and you want to do album, it's quite natural to add some instruments to that. And they are, the instruments are, there maybe to help a joiker like to create the environment and the joiking objectives. So I think it's -- this was a good way because I didn't lose my freedom. Of course in some songs I don't have the freedom, but in many songs I can do whatever I want. >> Stephen Winick: That's great. So one thing that's really interesting, I think, and a lot of people would be interested by it is that there's a sort of history to joik and electronica being done together. I mean this goes back at least about 20 years now. What can you tell us about that? I mean how did the electronic music come to Sami folks? >> Annamaret: Yeah. I think it was in the '90s actually when it started. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know to which artist are you referring to, but I think [inaudible] is the first one who did it with electronics and with [inaudible]. And Wimme has been also explaining this that he did music with many kinds of bands like jazz bands, folk music bands, and he always found it's like too strict, that you had to decide what you're going to do at, okay, now we have A part two times, B part two times, and then we go to the C part. Of course because like this music works like that. And when Wimme started to play with this electronic music band called [inaudible] he really liked it because they created like a musical world and he could joik in there as he wanted. And he's of course using a lot of improvisation, a lot more than me. So it's quite natural that he felt like that, but I think Wimme started it, and then also there is this one band called Angelit and they also had this quite known album with electronics. It's more pop music, but it's still really electronical. So I think that actually this is nothing new that you use electronics and joik. And I don't know why is that. Why do they do them together? >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. One of my favorite albums is by Ulla Pirttijarvi who was in Angelit I think and then went on her own, and it's very electronic, but it's beautiful joiking as well. So yeah. Such an interesting history to have that connection. So let's talk a little about your recordings because you've got three albums I think that are available. So tell us a little about how your recording career developed. >> Annamaret: Yeah. Well then after I graduated from [inaudible] I worked as a clarinetist in a wind band in southern Finland, and then after like one year or something like that I started to feel that I want to go back to north and that was also my dream like for many years or for the whole time that I was there. And I really started to still feel that I should do that, and then I moved back and then I started to establish my like artist career as a Sami artist. And actually at first I did some like songs in Sami language, like folk songs maybe you could describe them. And then there are these joiking elements also in there, but they were like they had lyrics and they were like more like songs, not joiks. And I -- actually some -- this music that I created then, it was like somehow music that I really loved because I really got to like sing with amazing folk musicians from Finland like Johanna Juhola [inaudible] and Ilkka [inaudible] but Ilkka was playing bass then, not joiko. And then some -- so I had this like modern folk music ensemble in playing, playing with me. So it was like totally amazing to create this arrangement with them and do concerts with them. And my like lyrics were written from my point of view so I think it was like quite interesting because it was written in Sami language, but then I talked about these ordinary things like love and yeah. And then of course Sami writes and it will be more political stuff. >> Stephen Winick: Political. Yeah. >> Annamaret: Yeah. So this was like my first two albums. But then I started to do this joik research, and then when I found the -- some recordings from the '60s that were recorded from the area that my families come from, I like totally got hooked and I thought that oh my god this is something that I want to work with for a long time. And I did a lot of research and such for more materials and more recordings. And then some time then I started to do my own joik space and the style and it was like a research to like investigate how can you do same kind of joiks in this style, and what is this style? And what makes joik a joik? And I'm still trying to research, do this research. And I think I'm going to do it for the rest of my life. >> Stephen Winick: Well, we love to hear that. We here at the Library of Congress, we have that same kind of archive of traditional recordings for both European American groups and/or native American indigenous groups. We hold these recordings and we just love it when people from the region or from the family even come and hear their own recordings. So did you find members of your own family on the recordings? >> Annamaret: Yes. I found just suddenly I saw a list of archive recordings and I started to look more carefully and I was like, "Oh, my god. This has to be my great grandfather and this has to be my great grandmother." And I like found all of them. I was like amazed, like "They are there." They are not lost. I was so happy. And it's like amazing how much it means. It creates -- like it's part of your identity. And that's also that's the spirituality that we think about and that is in them in a really important thing. And this family, that they are not just like some ancestors, but they are like they are meaningful in this time as well. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. And it's one of our favorite things is to be able to share the recordings with, you know, great grandchildren or descendants of any kind, family members. It's just a very rewarding part of our job. So I'm glad to hear that you have had that experience as well and that you were able to draw from it for your music because it's really important to have the music carry on through generations. So thanks for telling us about that. So in English you refer to your latest project as dreamscapes. How is it said in Sami, and what is the concept behind that project? >> Annamaret: Yes. Dreamscapes is [foreign language spoken] in Sami which, yeah, it's like dreamscapes. It's like a dream of these old times. And the searching for your ancestors, searching for your families, and searching for your roots. And like at some point when I was doing that research I like started to question myself. Like, "What's the point?" Why am I doing this? How are these meaningful in this time? And what does it mean that I find an old joik? What did I actually find? So it's not like [inaudible] of a time. You also have this some kind of crisis that how do these melodies or recordings belong to me. And I think that is where dreamscapes came from. Like it's like the -- somehow it's the ideal what we think was -- like how we think that the old times were. And how they lived. But actually we don't know, and it might not be that romantic, this life at the time. So like you have to remember that those recordings, they are just like a glimpse of that culture. And you have to like remember to think about the background as well, what's behind there and then create your own like sense of understanding about them somehow. And there -- in dreamscapes there are a lot of different joiks, but many of them actually are about this finding ancestors and carrying -- how the generations carry the same things even if they don't know. And stuff like that. So they are really abstract. So this is not traditional actually because in tradition with joik animals and with joik people, persons -- but in my joiks I have these abstract feelings and images that I'm joiking. >> Stephen Winick: Interesting. So another collaboration that you've done recently was with a rap artist. What kind of connections can we draw between joik and rap which there seem to be some similarities there too? >> Annamaret: Yeah. Maybe. Rap is actually quite popular here in Sami popular music. And the rap scene started somewhere in 2005, something like that. Around there. And I think it's really great that they have this artist because they really do a lot of work for the language. And to keep the language rich and teach the language to the young generations because rap music is popular across -- between younger people as well. So it's really important what they do. And this rap artist, Ailu Valle, that I got to collaborate with, he's really a master with words. And he has a really rich Sami language. So it was so great and he wrote these beautiful lyrics for my Johtit ain, we still immigrate, song that is also in the same dreamscapes album. And you can find actually the lyrics if you're interested from my web page. So they - Ailu told the idea of dreamscapes with his own words in this song. So it was really like fascinating and [inaudible] effect for me to realize that, oh my god, there is a person who understands what I mean with this music, with the whole album. And he wrote it in one song. But in rap music also you can improvise. So that's similar with joik because the joiker improvises with the lyrics. There are not -- there are no like set lyrics you are supposed to use, but you can joik with those words you like. So I think maybe rap music is family with joik. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. Well, and it's interesting that you mention the language because we haven't talked about that very much, but of course Sami, like many indigenous languages here in the U.S, has gone through problems of colonization and the loss of language. So both joik and rap can be methods of preserving language. Did you find a lot of difference when you were listening to those old recordings? Did the -- has the Sami language changed a little since they were recorded? >> Annamaret: Yeah. Joikers have so like beautiful dialects and really like beautiful like vocabulary. They use really beautiful words. And they have this like this ability to put the words to the joiks in a beautiful way. And they use really like beautiful language like these images like they describe things with not actually saying the thing, but describing it in other words. And the lyrics have a lot of hidden meanings and everything. So it's a world that I really need to investigate more and try to understand how do they form the lexical words, the lyrics, in these joiks. >> Stephen Winick: So it's a whole different approach to language maybe than in modern song writing and in rap. So that's very interesting. >> Annamaret: Yes. It definitely is. They are like using different -- yeah. There are some joikers are somehow in the different stage than for example now when I'm talking to you. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. So you mentioned that you had gone south to do your music education and play in some bands down there. And then you went back north and you're living now in Sapmi. And you're more or less among a reindeer herding community. Is that right now? >> Annamaret: Yeah. I'm married to a reindeer herder and this is a family business. So everybody are involved, wives and children as well. So we are all there. >> Stephen Winick: And how does that sort of fit in to the economy, the modern economy that is going on in both Sapmi and in the modern countries Finland and Norway and so forth? >> Annamaret: Yeah. Reindeer herding has of course become part of the like the economical system. So, for example, my husband and with his brother they have a like a firm. How do you say it? Like they make their own reindeer products, and then they sell it to consumers. So that is the way how you can get like a little bit better living from the reindeer meat. But it's tough work because you can -- you have to of course be there taking care of the reindeer. And then you have this business. So it's like you have to put these two worlds together. And I'm -- this Sapmi is a really big area so of course the reindeer herding is different in different kinds of parts of Sapmi. And in this area it's organized this way, that it's possible to sell a lot of reindeer meat and get an income from that. So if you work hard and of course if you have like the environment lets you -- like the -- the -- sorry. I can't find the words. >> Stephen Winick: We should say how impressive your English is. I know it's got to be at least your third or fourth language. So. >> Annamaret: Thanks. Well, you know, when the weather -- when the temperature goes up [inaudible] what's that? That's called the -- >> Stephen Winick: Well, people call it global warming, but we -- >> Annamaret: Global warming. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Like -- >> Stephen Winick: I guess climate change is a more neutral term. Yeah. >> Annamaret: Exactly. So like the climate change is affecting a lot. It's the environment is changing and reindeer is of course not changing that fast. So it's like it worries us that are we able to live from the reindeer in the future because the environment is changing so fast. At the moment it's okay, but we can see it already now that the winters are getting so much shorter and also warmer. So the climate change is here. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. Yeah. And I share your worry about not just the reindeer herding, but so many things in the north are going to change faster than they will in other places. And so yeah. So let's hope that we get it together globally and manage to do something about this because it's yeah. That's a big worry. One thing that has got to be very different now as well with -- for people living in Sapmi is the existence of technologies of communication like we're using right now. How does that change the possibilities for an artist living where you do? >> Annamaret: I think it's getting much easier, and the possibilities are a lot more. And I mean I do my music here and it's really easy to share it with other musicians and do collaborations and work before the concerts or before going through the studio separately. And of course it's not nice to work alone all the time, but it's great to see the other people. And it's great to have concerts. But it's really a great thing that this modern technology gives this opportunity because I think that I'm living here in Nuorgam and this is the northernmost place in the European Union. So it's -- and there are 200 people in my village. So I'm not like meeting other musicians every day or doing concerts even every month here. So I have to travel a lot, but when I have this ability to -- like I have this possibility to communicate through this computer and telephone. So it's like making my life a lot easier. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. So one thing we didn't talk about at all yet is the pandemic itself and how it might have affected, you know, I mean obviously all of Europe. But how did it affect people in Sapmi? >> Annamaret: I guess the same way. The big thing here is the border between Finland and Norway. Of course we are used to go over the border like in our everyday lives, like people live in Finland and then they go to to Norway and work there. Or we go to shop. Or Norwegian people come to shop to this side. But the border has been closed, and it has been really hard to get to the other side at some point, at times. So that was really like somehow not nice, and it was also because we didn't have corona here. Like we didn't have actually the pandemic here because we don't have like this big like that we have to be at the same place. We are not at the same -- we are at home and we are in the tundra and there are 200 people living in the village. Then it's like not major like possibility to meet so many people. But yeah. So we felt that it was wrong to close the border even if we don't have corona here. But in other ways like in the ordinary day we have been quite okay. Of course the first [inaudible] was a little bit of a shock, and the schools were closed. But after that life has been quite normal. We have had school open. My kids have been in school. And also the kindergarten has been open. And but of course I don't have any gigs and I'm not traveling. So that's maybe different, and my family is loving it. >> Stephen Winick: Yeah. Yeah. There are always trade offs of course. And, you know, it's interesting what you say about the border closing because it shows that even when the political state isn't attempting to be colonial, they're not really trying to oppress anyone, decisions that are made on a national level for national purposes may not be the best decisions for local communities, and you were sort of caught in that moment there. So it's an interesting sort of lesson I guess for, you know, countries to think about all of their people and not just the most populous places. >> Annamaret: Exactly. You are so right. Yeah. >> Stephen Winick: So, given that we're now communicating this way and over the internet, what would you most like to say to the world through this interview do you think? It's a big question. >> Annamaret: I think it's important to cherish different kinds of cultures and let us be what we are. And it's yeah. I think that is that. We should love each other as we are. And try to like accept different kinds of people. I think that's really important. >> Stephen Winick: Well, thank you so much, Annamaret. We love you. We loved your concert. And we want all of our viewers to of course watch this interview and hear the important things that Annamaret had to say about her music, but also go and watch the concert and enjoy the wonderful music that she brought to us. So, Annamaret, one more time, thank you so much for doing this interview and for doing a concert in the homegrown concert series. >> Annamaret: Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure.