>> Edward Miner: On behalf of the Library's African and Middle Eastern Division, I wish to welcome you to this next talk in our symposium, Religious Practices, Transmission, and Literacies in Africa, the Middle East and Central Asia. I am Dr. Edward Miner, head of the African Section. For more than 60 years, the African Section has served as the focal point for Africa-based research collections and services at the Library. Within the division, it is one of three sections including the Hebraic and Near East that provide access to research collections of unmatched depth and breadth documenting the literatures, cultures, and histories of regions extending from the southern tip of Africa to the Mediterranean coast, across the Middle East to Central Asia, and down to the Indian Ocean islands. The Library holds rich collections in major African languages such as Hausa, Arabic, Muharraq, Tigrinya, Somali, Kiswahili, Malagasy and Zulu, as well as hundreds of lesser-known languages. I'm pleased to present to you today a research team comprising Professor Jacques Berlinerblau and Bethania Michael. Professor Berlinerblau is currently the Rabbi Harold White professor of Jewish Civilization at the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University. Dr. Berlinerblau has published on a wide variety of issues ranging from secularism to religion and politics, to Jewish-American fiction, to African-American and Jewish-American relations, to American higher education. He has published 35 scholarly articles and 10 books. Bethania Michael is a recent graduate of Georgetown University's master's program in foreign service. There, she studied global politics and security and obtained a certificate in African Studies. Michael graduated from Georgetown University's School of Foreign Service in 2019, after majoring in regional and comparative studies with a concentration on Africa and the Middle East. Her research interests include nationalism, governance, migration, and security in the horn of Africa. Their talk is entitled, Secular Africa? Making Sense of the Interplay Between Secular Constitutions and Religious Citizens. I give you now, starting with Dr. Berlinerblau. >> Jacques Berlinerblau: Hello to all of you, and thank you for watching our presentation entitled Secular Africa? Making Sense of the Interplay Between Secular Constitutions and Religious Citizens. First, on behalf of my colleagues, I want to extend profound thanks to Ed Miner, Ahn Ji-ho [phonetic], Monique Walton [phonetic] and the entire dedicated staff of the African/Middle Eastern Studies Reading Room of the Library of Congress. We spent a glorious month in their company and they have spared us no bibliographical kindness, so thank you so much. What you're about to hear are the fruits of a collaboration between three GU scholars at very different stages of their careers. First, there is myself. Next, there is Bethania Michael, a graduate student who will soon be pursuing her doctorate. And third, and astonishingly please the undergraduate Alexandre Lin. You'll be seeing Alex's datasets throughout this presentation, and you'll be hearing from Ms. Michael in a few minutes. We are still working our way through an immense trove of data and archival materials that we discovered in the Library of Congress during the past month, so the analysis you're about to hear represents kind of where we are today, not precisely where we'll be in a couple of weeks, but we think we're very, very close. All right, then let's get going. We started from a very curious fact, that fact being the 28 of Africa's 54 nations possess constitutions whose edicts regarding proper relations between government and religion or religions, may be described as secular. I'll define the term secular for with, but for now, let's first look at this map made, again, by Alex Lin and you'll see some even more amazing datasets created by him. The dark blue refers to constitutions of African nation states that are explicitly secular. The red refers to a country with an established religion and hence a non-secular state. Okay, I'm going to define the term secular in a moment, but I will say the following. With the exception of scholars of Africa, the facts that we are looking at today don't seem to be very widely known. Journalists and policy analysts rarely comment on the highly secular nature of Africa and even the phrase Secular Africa sounds dissonant, a quirky adjective-noun uncoupling. Yet the fact remains, as you look at this map, that 28 of these constitutions are explicitly secular. The citizenry of Africa, however, is deeply religious. In 2020, an Afro Barometer poll revealed that 9 in 10, or 95%, of Africans identified with a particular religion. You see the graphic up on the screen now. The "Other" is most likely ATRs, or African traditional religions. So few have considered the broader implications of what we, the three of us, consider an important geopolitical data point. More than half of the countries in the world's most youthful, religious and likely soon to be most populous continent are in theory, wed to formally secular structures of governance. Our goal today is first to apprise you of the facts and figures and operative definitions regarding secularism and secularisms in Africa, and from there, we want to ponder a well-known conundrum. Many putatively secular states in Africa appear not, I repeat not, to abide by their own secular precepts in their constitutions. In other words, one would expect a secular state to not have mounting inter- and intrareligious strife, to not be subjected to intense political pressure from mass religious movements, to not have government officials speak publicly about their faith convictions, and to not explicitly use theological ideas as the drivers of public policy, but as we're going to see, this happens across Africa, its secular states included. To make sense of this phenomenon, we will probe the interplay between colonialism's deleterious afterlives, and what is known to scholars as state fragility, but first, let's start with the term secularism. The term secularism, which I've studied for my entire career, is notoriously hard to pin down. I once referred to it as the most misunderstood -ism in the global political lexicon. A variety of different conceptions of what the term means have emerged. Though interestingly, while the meaning of secularism has generated intense academic debate, far less energy has been spent defining the secular state, which is a related but distinct concept. For our purposes, we propose the following ideal type of a constitutionally secular state in the African context. So we're going to get very, very normative. This is a typology by the way. It contains 10 features, and we note that not all of them will be present in the nation's under scrutiny. So what do we mean when we speak of a constitutionally African state. An African state will be referred to as constitutionally secular when its constitution refers to the nation as secular and/or committed to the principle of separation of church and state. These are the leading criteria for defining a constitutionally secular state. Yet these two dimensions of state secularity are complicated and they need to be carefully qualified. Let's start with the elusive term secular. So countries like India, France, Turkey, along with our 28 African nations, refer to themselves as secular in their constitutions. Problematically, these texts never elaborate upon what secular or laique in French or laiklik in Turkish actually means, and the scope of rights and obligations that it encompasses. This omission creates considerable confusion and ongoing political tensions within constitutionally secular countries because everyone is arguing about what secular actually entails. In Cameroon, for example, the scholar Charles Manga Fombad wonders aloud, what exactly does secular mean, particularly in a situation where neither the constitution itself, nor any piece of legislation defines the concept, to which I say Amen, absolutely, absolutely correct. Eleven African constitutions, as we shall see, refer to their nations as secular and also stipulate that they abide by the principle of separation of church and state. South Sudan, interestingly, is unique in that it is constitutionally separationist, but not explicitly secular. This coupling of secularism with separationism, necessitates clarification. This is because -- please note this everyone -- a secular state need not always practice separationist policies. Put differently -- and this is widely misunderstood in the United States -- separationism is a type of political secularism, but it's not the only type. There are different models of secularism like French laicite, in which the state explicitly controls religion. Then in India, there's a model which we refer to as accommodationism. Unlike laicite, or separationism, the accommodationist secular model features a state which endeavors in good faith to accommodate or form partnerships with religious groups. Some accommodationist secular states recognize the legitimacy of religious courts and law codes in certain areas of personal and family law. Now, as you all know, the three of us spent a good month in the salt mines of the wonderful archives of the Library of Congress, and we found all sorts of interesting things. Here's something we found from William Tolbert, the former president of Liberia, and let's read it out loud. So that virtues and morality may be inculcated among students, I direct that the Holy Bible, the Holy Quran, and other such religious codes of conduct as would be compatible with our national culture, to be introduced and made required subjects to be taught in all public schools, freedom of religion being granted to all in their choice of religious study, in keeping with our constitution. Liberia is one of our high-performing secular states, so this is the accommodationist model and it serves to remind us of something we'll get back to in a moment. Secularism is not the enemy or the antithesis of religion. Okay, so the French laique and Indian accommodationist frameworks, which we just saw in Liberia, demonstrate that there can be secularism without separationism. Another problem is the phrase separation of church and state. I don't want to linger on this too much, but it's sort of become an empty signifier in global political discourse. Many people speak about it without really thinking about what it means and how it is achieved. Here's the problem with separation, as I understand it. How precisely is a state, whose citizens are mostly believers of some sort, whose government employees and elected officials are mostly people of faith, whose culture is steeped in centuries of religion or religions, how precisely are those things supposed to erect a wall or impenetrable boundary between government and religious citizens? Once again, Professor Fombad is prescient when he observes that the concept of separation of religion and state is quite artificial, because it is incapable of easy implementation, or logical achievement. With that said, let's return to our typology. In addition to being secular and/or separationist, a constitutionally secular state may, three, articulate that there is no establishment of religion or a favorite religion, four, claim that all religious citizens possess equal rights, five -- very important -- grants freedom of religious conscience to all citizens, six, grants free exercise of religion to all of its citizens subject to the law. So you must obey a public order and laws of public morality and then you get your free exercise. I mention that because that is omitted from the Bill of Rights in the American Constitution, a stunning and very unusual omission in the Constitution of the United States. Seven, a secular constitution maintains that laws are the unique purview of the state itself as the ultimate legal authority in the land. This has implications for federalist models in Africa, and my colleague, Ms. Michael will speak about that. Eight, a secular constitution stipulates limitations on its own authority and power vis a vis the religious actors that it governs. This is very, very important in the African context. I refer to this as internal constraint, as in a state must have constraints on itself. So how does a state put a braking mechanism on its own word and thought-defining power? How about a functioning judiciary? How about a multiparty system? How about free and fair elections? How about an open and free press? So internal constraint is another major component of a constitutionally secular state, which brings us to more robust or maximalist conceptions of secular states. Let's go to nine. Some secular states, but not all in Africa, have what are known as party bans. Party bans are witnessed in some Latin American countries such as Mexico, and articulated in numerous African constitutions. Ergo, political parties affiliated with religion are prohibited. A constitutionally secular state might also prohibit religions from involving themselves in the affairs of the state and vice versa, as we see in the constitution of the Republic of Congo and Ethiopia. All right, everyone, so that's our 10-point scoring system. In a moment we'll share with you how various African nations fared, but before we do that, let's look at the unambiguously non-constitutionally secular states in Africa. Once again, this is the work of Alexander Lin, who put this lovely chart together for us. All of these states proclaim a state religion and hence, violate the principle of disestablishment, which is part of the definition of a constitutionally secular state. A nation with an establishment of religion will in theory, be unable to remain completely neutral in its dealings with all religious groups under its jurisdiction. One of the most pressing political questions in states with religious establishments concerns the rights of religious minorities, be they Copts in Egypt or Muslims in Zambia. If protection of the safety and rights of religious minorities is among political secularism's great deliverable, then we, as we are about to see, not all secular African states succeed in this regard. Two, we should recall that within countries with religious establishment, such as the ones we're looking at here, there will often be citizens who prefer disestablishment. All right, this is a really important point. I refer to these folks as secular nationalists. Secular nationalists can be found in many non-secular countries, such as the ones up on your screen. One thinks of Christian clergy in Zambia, who opposed its transition to a Christian nation and the 1990s. See Professor Gifford. Christians in the Sahel who feared Islamization, see Professor Thurston. Muslim secularists in Tunisia, see Professor Haynes. Sufis in Senegal, see Professor Lohmeyer [phonetic], or the Roman Catholic Church in Eritrea confronting post 1993-guerrilla leaders with reasoned arguments of how religiosity was not inimical to secularism, Professors Keller and Iyob. The point to recall is that within a constitutionally non-secular state, there may be individual and collective actors who prefer secular governance. A further point to recall, and I can't emphasize this enough, is that these secularists will usually be religious people, secular and religious are not antonyms, and insofar as secularism is distinct from atheism, researchers should approach their subject matter mindful that secularists in Africa can be Christian, Muslim, practitioners of African traditional religions, and so forth. Their preference and politics should be considered a legitimate object of scrutiny in the academic study of African secularists. With that said, let's get to what we like to refer to as the bad boy or the bad girl. This is our scoring of the remaining 44 countries in Africa on a 13-point scale, 10 criteria, which you saw, and here you see Alexander Lin's work in all of its glory. We divide the group into two broad categories, explicitly secular and/or separationist. That accounts for 24 countries in blue. We'll be happy to share our materials with you when they're published in a few months. And ambiguous, those are countries not in blue. What you're looking at are the top 10 and the bottom 10. The bottom 10 may contain some secular provisions, usually guarantees of free exercise, but never invoke secularism or separationism. For ease of reference, we offer this table which ranks nations in terms of the 10 criteria adumbrated above. So let's look at the top 10. A score of 13 would represent the most constitutionally secular nation imaginable. Ethiopia scores a 12. Madagascar scores a 12. Cape Verde, 11. Liberia, 11. Really, really quite interesting. The reader is reminded, however, that this scoring is solely based on the words found in the constitution. What we are advancing is a purely theoretical metric. The relation or lack thereof of the words in these constitutions to realities on the ground will preoccupy us in a moment. So as we look at this table, let's think about the peculiarity that gives rise to what we are about to explore. As indicated above, there is a difference between the constitutional secularity of a given nation and the actual secularity witnessed on the ground. While a constitution might claim that a country abides by the principle of separation of church and state, empirical reality might suggest completely otherwise. In fact, numerous Africanists have made this very observation about the difference between theory and practice, and here are some of those that we're going to cite momentarily. This must be carefully considered in the study of national and regional secularisms in Africa, as well as any continentwide analysis. So some quick examples, writing in the Oxford Handbook of Secularism, the late Bafour Takyi pointed out that although few African countries have established state religions, religious ideals and organizations have often been used to achieve political goals in many African countries, thus negating the whole argument about a strict separation between church and state. Separation of church and state, Takyi concluded, exists in many parts of Africa, only in the area of rhetoric. MHA Bolaji remarks, at the level of governance, secularism has remained mostly ambiguous, lacking practical policies to actualize the secularist agenda. Ruth Iyob wondered aloud if secularism in Africa even exists both as a social norm and a legal principle. These considerations led her to ask whether secularism was a quote, legal fiction or a necessary myth in the nation-building project. Our interest now consists of understanding why the discrepancy exists between constitutional secularism and the actual practice of secularity on the ground in many secular African countries. Why is it that many governments and citizens in Africa fail to abide by the secular standards of their own constitutions? This is an exceedingly complicated question. It encompasses 28 different countries, as well as numerous political regimes, religions, ethnic groups, language families, and so forth. We're not going to offer you a comprehensive list of explanatory variables accounting for what we call constitutional non-compliance. What we will do is advance a few general frameworks for thinking about why it might be that constitutional non-compliance, that is not obeying the secular strictures of one's constitution, might be present in various African nations. In order for us to do that, we need a scholar of African political systems, and this is where I want to hand off the presentation to my colleague Ms. Bethania Michael. Bethania? >> Bethania Michael: Thank you, Professor Berlinerblau. So Professor just mentioned and posed an important question about why we see an apparent disconnect between secular constitutions and the political realities of many African nations. Throughout our study of African secularisms, we came up with four ways of tackling the problem of constitutional non-compliance and better understanding it. That is to say, we focused on four types of explanations. The first involved governance patterns. The second involved citizenry, the third linkages between governments and citizens, and the fourth, much broader, was classified under the explanation of macrolevel structural factors. But all of our explanations start from the same place, with the violent experience of colonialism and its destabilization of African polities. So the first period of African constitutionalism is widely traced back to the 1950s and '60s, and this period of constitutionalism demonstrated that the continent's post-colonial period, rather than marking a fresh start, in fact, involved much institutional and terminological carryover. Perhaps the most biting assessment of constitutions during this period describes them as, quote, the product of people who are ready to sign off on almost anything in order to put an end to colonialism, end quote. So we follow mainstream scholars who cast a critical eye on independence, because far from there being a sharp rupture between the colonial and postcolonial period, there was a lot of carryover. This, of course, had direct implications on African secularisms. In addition to modern state boundaries or nation-state boundaries -- and you look at a map of the continent will show you the result of these inherited legacies -- colonial legacies also manifested themselves in the secular verbiage of African constitutions and an embrace of political secularism by African leaders. So our data demonstrates -- we have Alex Lin's map here again -- the majority of the countries we classify as explicitly secular were former French colonies, bearing out previous observations in literature about how Francophone and Lusophone African nations adopted laicite. So while a regional breakdown of these key events is beyond the scope of our research, we attempt to better understand constitutional non-compliance by tying in this history with studies of contemporary state fragility in Africa, and we'll get to state fragility soon, but first, once we bear in mind how the colonial experience spawned fragile states, we can try and understand secular non-compliance through the aforementioned four optics. One analytical approach, evaluate citizen compliance with African constitutions. On the one hand, academics such as James Howard Smith argued that, quote, religion in Africa was never relegated even superficially to a space outside politics and current events or to benign places of public worship, unquote. So put differently, for Smith, there was no tradition or culture of secularism in Africa, and no precedent for keeping religion out of the public and private sphere, but existing literature on the relationship between religious actors and governments in the Sahel for example, paints a slightly different picture. It explains how these actors, together with the state, redefined the contours of secularism by wielding it to shape their ongoing relationship. This approach sees citizens as rational and strategic actors who navigate secularism in order to achieve their goals. Again, it is difficult to survey all of these interactions on a country-by-country or even regional basis, but speaking broadly, one could surmise that, for a variety of reasons, African citizens are reluctant to buy in, or unable to buy in or internalize secular constitutional edicts. This can in turn result in anti-secular behaviors, including public rituals, public proselytization and heightened contestations over public space. In keeping with our conversation of how the relationship between state and religious actors is uniquely dynamic on the continent, another outcome may be that these citizens mobilize for political goals through their faith and on the basis of their own religious convictions. So there we have it. Our first explanation focused on citizens as resisting the secularism in their constitutions, but now we turn to another possibility, that governments and not citizens are responsible primarily for secular non-compliance. Another more top-down way of engaging the question of constitutional non-compliance vis a vis secularism, is to focus on enduring government shortcomings born of colonialism. So let's talk about now what scholars refer to as state fragility, which we understand is encompassing a variety of characteristics, including an inability of states to improve state legitimacy and capacity, to control corruption, to strengthen governmental, bureaucratic and judicial institutions, to provide public resources, and to invest in robust nation and state-building programs, among other features. This is what a functioning state should provide, and this is what fragile states lack, so these shortcomings contribute to ongoing gaps between constitutional writ and empirical realities. In a nutshell, we and many others argue that colonialism and its aftereffects stagnated state building in Africa, leading to a seemingly cyclical state of fragility. While we're no fatalists, we do note that the scholar Zachary Elkins, in his study of the term evasions, or the pattern of term evasions in Latin America, use the term noncompliance cycle to define what he calls a, quote, troubling feedback loop of institutional weakness. And so we marry this literature on state fragility to illustrate the similar difficulty of ensuring constitutional compliance in the face of Africa's difficult legacies, all of which have a direct bearing on a country's abilities to honor secular constitutional provisions. Third, we offer the nexus between governance and citizens as a crucial analytical framework for understanding constitutional non-compliance. We rely heavily on the seminal article Colonialism and the Two Publics in Africa by the late scholar Peter Ekeh, in order to understand how the colonial experience has impacted contemporary African politics, and of course interactions between African citizens and African leaders. His nuanced contribution points to failed interactions between different segments of African political systems. It shows how tensions between pre- and post-colonial institutions stunted the integration of different structural levels in typical African polities. Specifically, Ekeh concludes that Africa's colonial legacy includes the existence of two structurally disintegrated African publics, each with different moral linkages to the private realm. These include what he called an amoral civic public and a primordial public. The civic public is a direct vestige of colonialism, including structures such as the military and the police. And in the primordial public individuals are primarily occupied with fulfilling moral obligations to benefit and sustain a primordial public of which that individual is a member. So the implication is that such a citizen feels less strongly obliged to sustain and maintain comparable linkages towards the commonweal. The citizen of a country operating under a federalist model may be a good example of this where there are tensions between their allegiance to a federal or local government as opposed to a ruling coalition or government. So the simultaneous, albeit disconnected, existence of these elites results in a confused populace that doesn't necessarily look to the government for cues as to proper civic behavior. Through Ekeh's framework, we can see how colonial legacies sometimes negatively impacted the ability of current African leaders to share the same moral inclinations, rise above clientelist interests or care about the needs of a more diverse body of citizens. The result is little investment in increasing government legitimacy, and this might help account for why citizens evince the aforementioned unawareness or disinterest towards secular stipulations. But there are ways African governments have overcome the problem so capably defined or identified by Ekeh. Africanists and scholars of constitutional law have supported the idea that constitutional reforms and the public's involvement in the development of constitutions can increase the endurance of governing principles. In keeping with our Sahelian theme, Mali, for example, which scored a 7.5 on our secularism index, demonstrates how inclusive dialogue during a country's constitution-writing process can help strengthen the legitimacy of the government and this was the case for Mali during the drafting of its 1992 constitution. So the active role of citizens in civil society organizations throughout the development of Mali's constitution, arguably safeguarded the country's democratic transition and rule of law. Lastly, we observed the impact of structural factors beyond the control of citizens and governments on weak compliance with secular provisions. We think sociologically here, and thus, we don't seek to blame African nations and individuals for secular non-compliance, so we look at a variety of possible macrostructural variables and kind of answering or unpuzzling our question. For instance, existing literature demonstrates that longer periods of statehood are positively linked with increased stability and development. It would follow then that higher rates of stability would foster greater legitimacy and compliance. In the interest of time, however, we'll focus on three additional variables today. We begin with the mundane possibility that amidst the tumult of forming a new nation, deliberations on secularism were not a heavy constitutional priority. In this scenario, emergent secular African nations were more focused on a welter of nation-building imperatives, including the provision of public goods and services and foreign policy, but perhaps not on the complexities of secularism. This is another possibility requiring exploration on a country-by-country or regional basis. Additionally, we move beyond the domestic to look at larger global factors. Turning back to state fragility now, we posit that governments find it difficult to ensure adherence to secular precepts in light of factors including crippling structural adjustment programs and the rise of international finance institutions. We quote the famous economist Thandika Mkandawire who wrote that, quote, the jaundiced view of the Bretton Woods institutions toward the state has allowed policies and practices that have stripped state structures to their bare bones, unquote. So in other words, international finance institutions encourage the increasingly minimal role that African states played in enacting economic reforms, which had a damaging effect on their ability to manage their own economies. So we can see the kind of ongoing importance of increased state capacity in our analysis. Notable ruptures within the international system provide another possibility for understanding our problematic. This is a broad subject, but we say the September 11 attacks and Ethiopia's subsequent conscription into the global war on terror is one notable example. The Ethiopian People's Revolutionary Democratic Front or the EPRDF's involvement in these broader efforts at the time allowed the ruling coalition to easily abrogate its responsibility to uphold the principle of non-interference, and the result was blatant interferences in the internal affairs of Ethiopia's Muslim community through the use of government-aligned bodies, including the Ethiopian Islamic Affairs Supreme Council, and there's a rich kind of set of literature on this. Ultimately, these actions contravened the non-interference statute of Ethiopian constitution, which stated that state and religion are separate, there shall be no state religion, and interestingly, the state shall not interfere in religious matters and religion shall not interfere in the state affairs. So to review, we have now looked at four different optics explaining the puzzle of constitutional compliance in Africa, but we're left with many questions for future research. We need to know more about how the secular provisions in African constitutions got there. This will require archival research reading memoirs of constitutional drafters and other forms of historical research in order to understand the nature of deliberations around secular issues during the period of decolonization and after, but more than anything else, we need to answer crucial policy questions surrounding whether African nations actually need secular governance, and the extent to which it would secure peace, stability and development, in addition to what the secularism should look like. We see our study as a theoretical stepping stone to answering these crucial questions. Last, we thought it would be interesting to close with a quote without comment we found in the Library, reflecting one of the ways in which African leaders thought about church or mosque state issues. It's a quote by Hastings Kamuzu Banda, the former president of Malawi, in his speech to the St. Michael's and All Angels Church in 1976. So it reads, yes, I believe in cooperation between church and state, religious leaders, political leaders if at all they understand their business, are all serving God, working for God in their different in separate ways. Therefore, there is no need for strife and friction between state and church. We are all servants of God. Those of us who are political leaders, and those of us who are religious leaders, must serve our people as God would want us to serve our people. We must use our position as government ministers and religious ministers in the interest of the people and that way to the glory of God. God is in heaven. Jesus Christ is in heaven. The Holy Spirit is in heaven. So with that, we thank you. We want to reiterate our thanks to the entire wonderful staff of the African and Middle Eastern Studies Reading Room at the -- >> Edward Miner: Professor Berlinerblau, Ms. Michael, thank you very much for that exceedingly incisive analysis of secularism and secular non-compliance, constitutional secular non-compliance across Africa. Your explication of Peter Ekeh's model of overlapping civic and primordial African publics makes me wonder how one would go about researching these in the archives. You all spent a great deal of time going through the African pamphlet collection, miscellaneous first and second-wave era ephemera. Were you able to identify in those kinds of documents, evidence of different publics in the sense that Ekeh speaks of? >> Bethania Michael: Yeah, it was really a wonderful opportunity to come back to the reading room after years and look at the vast pamphlet collection. I think what made it appropriate for answering this question was of mitigating, you know, overlapping publics in Africa, was the sheer breadth of the materials that it contained. You had your speeches, pamphlets put up by various political groups, writings by local civil society organizations, and together, all of these materials painted a more nuanced picture of what competing visions for what the political fabric of a given country looked like and the extent to which state actors or religious actors work together harmoniously. And, yeah, at the end of the presentation, we mentioned the speech by President Banda -- I think Malawi scored a five on our index -- which gave us somewhat of a taste of the difficulties of managing all of these actors and ensuring compliance. So overall, I think we're able to understand governance-related conundrums through some of the speeches that we came across. And additionally, the three of us -- it didn't make it to the slides, but we flagged the speech from 1974 by Kenneth Kaunda, and it was given in Lusaka, and in it, he essentially stated that the government and the church were both crucial sources of moral authority and supremacy, so we did see the sort of work or lack of work to manage or balance different publics and actors through the materials and really look forward to applying them to our article as we continue to work on it. >> Edward Miner: This might be for you, Professor Berlinerblau. You've referenced the coming demographic surge of youth in Africa. What do you think the sheer youthfulness of Africa in 2022 and going forwards portends for the future of African constitutions? And in a comparative sense, how has this variable affected constitutional secularism in other parts of the world? >> Jacques Berlinerblau: Great, thank you. What an interesting question. One thing I always tell my students is there are three or four arenas of combat for secularism, and one of them is education. So the way to approach your question is to do it on a country-by-country basis, or if we're looking at primordial publics, to look at it at a regional basis within a country that might have a particular ethnicity or linguistic group, and ask yourself the following question. Who is in charge of the education? So if we want to prognosticate whether secularism has a future in a given African country in 30, 40 years, we're going to have to look at those institutions that are inculcating morals and values. This is a very complicated question because sometimes let's say a Roman Catholic school system can be very secular, if only because Roman Catholics might be the minority in that part of the country, so they advocate for a secular state simply because of their small numbers. So I would approach your question, without getting into the specifics of a given country, by reiterating that when we see people in Ireland, in the United States, and various African countries engaging in pitched battles over who will control the curriculum of the national educational system, they are having a de facto fight about the future of the country. So I'm not trying to evade your question. I'm just saying, it's purely a question of how people are educated and who rested the control of those institutions that will form citizens in the future. >> Edward Miner: Thank you very much, Professor and Ms. Michael. Do you have any final thoughts you'd like to leave us with? >> Jacques Berlinerblau: Thania? >> Bethania Michael: I guess on that last question, I'd add that the kind of youthfulness of the continent as you put it leads to some optimism that the kind of participatory constitution-making that we want to see in the future is on the horizon just because we're seeing kind of a rise of bottom-up movements primarily led by youth, and to end on an optimistic note. I think that's important to note in thinking about Africa's future, and thank you all so much for your time. >> Jacques Berlinerblau: Sorry, and I'll add there's a lot of literature that's extremely critical of secularism in Western democracies. I was heartened to see many professional scholars of Africa, many of whom, most of whom were African themselves, glimpsing the possibilities of a functioning secularism. As I noted, there are many types of secularism. Some are beastly, some are benign, but I was encouraged to see leading scholars arguing that certain countries might benefit from secularism or compliance to secular norms in their constitution. >> Edward Miner: Thanks so much to both of you for this very revealing presentation. Wish you a good day.