>> Stephen Winick:
Welcome to the Homegrown
at Home concert series for 2022.
I'm Stephen Winick,
and for many years here
at the American Folklife Center
at the Library of Congress,
we presented the Homegrown
concert series featuring the
best in folk music and dance
from around the country
and around the world.
Now, normally we hold live
concerts in Washington DC
at the Library of Congress,
but in the year 2020
because of the global pandemic,
we shifted to producing an
online video concert series,
which we call Homegrown at Home.
And in that series, artists,
in whatever configuration
they can safely play in,
record a video concert and
submit it to us for the series.
So now it's 2022.
This is our third year of
Homegrown at Home concerts
because we're still
being cautious
about bringing audiences
together at the Library.
So we are very happy
to have the group WÖR
in our series this year.
A few of us on the AFC staff
first saw WÖR perform
at the Folk Alliance
International Conference
in 2016, and we've been eager
to present them ever since then.
But first we were waiting
for you to tour the US again
and then we had this
global pandemic.
So finally we're
presenting WÖR virtually.
Now, along with the
Homegrown at Home concerts,
we like to present
interviews about the groups
and their traditions, so I am
here with the members of WÖR,
Bert, Pieter, and Fabio.
And one challenge I have
in doing these interviews is
pronouncing the names of bands
and people from a wide
variety of cultures.
So I would love it if you would
each say your name and then one
of you maybe introduce the band.
So welcome to the
members of WÖR.
>> Pieterjan Van
Kerckhoven: Thank you.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: I'm
the accordion player.
My name is Bert Ruymbeek.
>> Fabio Di Meo: I'm
Fabio, Fabio Di Meo.
I play the baritone saxophone.
I guess my name is more easier
to pronounce as there are a lot
of Italian Americans
there so [laughs].
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
And my name is a double name.
It's Pieterjan, actually.
So it's Peter John,
Pieterjan, or PJ, if you like.
And I'm the bagpipe player
and saxophonist of WÖR.
>> Stephen Winick: All right.
And if one of you could explain
the basic idea behind the band
WÖR that you're in.
I know. That's a big
one, right [laughter]?
>> Fabio Di Meo: We're
just looking at each other
to see who's going to speak so.
>> Stephen Winick:
Yeah [laughs].
>> Bert Ruymbeek:
You go ahead, Fabio.
You do it on stage.
>> Fabio Di Meo: Yes, I also
do the presenting on stage,
so I will probably speak
the most here as well.
Well, what we do,
it's very easy.
So we just take music mostly
from carillon manuscripts,
the bell towers in Belgium,
and we just take the melodies
and we arrange around those
melodies all those tunes
that we play.
And we just came with that idea.
Our first CD was called Back
to the 1780s instead of Back
to the '80s because the music
is from the 18th century,
and so our input was like
the belltower was the radio
of its time.
When the belltower was played
in the city, it was the music.
Everybody could hear it.
And so it was like the radio.
They would play tunes that
were popular back then,
and so we'd just take them
back into the 21st century
and modernize it a little
bit to this century.
That's our global
take on our music.
>> Stephen Winick: Thank you.
Now, WÖR is a group
from Belgium.
So talk a little bit
about your country
and maybe the traditional
music of Belgium.
>> Bert Ruymbeek:
Belgium in fact is --
has two language groups,
the Dutch-speaking part
in the north, which
we call Flanders,
and the French-speaking
part in the south,
which is called Wallonia.
Some of us were taking
part in a musical exchange
about 10 years ago, and the
question came, play something
from your region, and we found
out that we had some common
repertoire but not a lot.
So that was actually the reason
why we asked ourselves the
question what can be found here
because there was no
living tradition anymore,
and then we found
those manuscript
with mainly carillon repertoire.
And PJ also plays the bagpipes,
the Flemish bagpipes,
the Bruegel bagpipes.
He will probably explain
a bit later about it.
So yeah, we were curious to
find repertoire from our region,
and later on we also discovered
that what is now our region was
the music traveled way further,
so what we call now
Flemish music
or Belgian music can actually
also be found over the border
in Germany and the
Netherlands, even in the UK.
But that was the reason
why we wanted to get
into it was looking
for our roots and then
on the other hand
meanwhile also not trying
to give a historical correct
interpretation of that music
because it's kind of a guess.
We interpreted it
with our ears of today
with all the influences we heard
in our music allocation but even
so on popular music and radio
today and the dance we like.
So that's been our story,
combining those two.
>> Stephen Winick: Thank you.
So, you know, you mentioned that
your region is called Flanders
and that people there
speak Dutch.
And I think one of the
things that I noticed
that maybe you can respond to
is I've been to Belgium a number
of times over the years,
once when I was a kid.
I was maybe 10 years old the
first time I went to Belgium.
And what I remember then is
that people didn't describe
their language as Dutch.
They said that it was Flemish,
but it wasn't as common
to use the word Dutch.
But now when I go to Belgium,
like everybody just
says we speak Dutch.
Has there been a change in
terms of the way people speak
about the Flemish language
and Flemish traditions?
>> Fabio Di Meo: Yeah,
but that's a political
issue [laughs].
It has political meaning.
Like 30, 40 years ago when
you said I speak Flemish,
there was no political
connotation to it.
You would just speak Flemish.
Like you would say I
speak American instead
of I speak English because
it's not 100% the same
as English from the UK.
So we say we speak Flemish
because Dutch is also
from the Netherlands but it
sounds a little different.
But now if you say things
like I speak Flemish,
some people take it
as a political issue
because every country
has these problems now
where you have the
far-right wings who are coming
up who want, like, the
independence of Flanders.
So they point everything
out this is Flemish.
So if you use the word Flemish,
sometimes it could
be interpreted
as something political,
which is actually not true.
I mean, it is still
Flemish, which we speak,
but you say Dutch because
it's more common to say Dutch.
And also people abroad
know Dutch.
They know it's a language,
but Flemish doesn't really --
they don't know what
it is, Flemish.
They don't know Flanders.
They know Belgium, but
they don't know Flanders.
So you say Dutch just to
be easy for everybody.
We speak Dutch.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: Officially
Dutch is correct, of course.
That's the official name,
but it's just wrong dialect.
So people from the Netherlands
hear that we are from Flanders,
but we can understand
each other.
>> Fabio Di Meo: It's like
you would say in America ...
>> Bert Ruymbeek: And
understandable also
if they really go for it.
>> Fabio Di Meo: It's like
if you would say in America,
I speak New York
or I speak Seattle
or I speak San Franciscan or
something and say, ah, okay,
it's English but with an accent.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Fabio Di Meo: Some
words are maybe different.
>> Stephen Winick: Makes sense.
Thank you.
So you had mentioned
that the tradition isn't
so much a living tradition.
That is, there isn't, you know,
that much traditional
folk music remaining.
But I recall maybe 20 years
ago there was already a healthy
revival going on with groups
like Kadril and things
like that.
So were you influenced
by that scene,
by other Belgian folk
groups that were around?
>> Pieterjan Van
Kerckhoven: Yeah, obviously.
So we don't have
living tradition,
but it's only a short period
that there is no
tradition in Belgium.
Actually between
the two [inaudible].
Our traditional music went
to brass band music actually,
and we're strongly influenced
by American music, actually too.
But there we lost a
connection with the repertoire
that was originally
played in our region.
But already in the '50s, they
started the first revival,
and actually there are,
like, three waves in revival.
The first revival was
only some people traveling
around on a horse going to
record on the countryside,
the old people that still
remembered the last melodies
or songs maybe sang by
their fathers or mothers.
And then after this, there was
already a revival also looking
to scores and remaining sources.
And then you have the real
folk and folk rock revival
where you talk about
it I guess with bands
as Kadril presenting also
abroad of Belgium more and more.
And of course we are influenced
by bands, for example, as Kadril
or Ambrozjin, maybe you know.
A bit later, you have a
band called [inaudible].
It was only a duo [inaudible].
So cozy, sitting playing
music without electricity.
So it was like very cozy.
And I think those
bands are bands
that strongly influenced us.
But at the same time,
almost every Belgian band is
strongly influenced by bands
from abroad, and also
that influence we have
in our music I guess like
from Scandinavian influences
or Celtic influences too.
>> Stephen Winick: Great.
And you mentioned, you know,
the brass band influence
in American music,
and of course you see
that in WÖR with saxophones.
So explain how you
decided or you came
to incorporate brass instruments
into the traditional music
that you're playing
in the group.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: Well,
the saxophone is a
Belgian invention.
That was maybe more
a coincidence
than a choice, I think.
[ Laughter ]
Yeah. I think PJ
is the best place
to answer the question, yeah.
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
When we started off, we were,
like, thinking about the
sound we would like to have,
and one of the first things we
said, like, let's try something
without percussion,
nothing against percussion
or percussionists at all.
And then we said, like, we had
a violin, guitar, accordion,
bagpipes, and saxophone,
and we were thinking like,
we need something
low but not too low
because actually the basses
of the accordion are the
lowest in this setting.
But something low with a
punch, and I was studying
at the same place where
Fabio was studying music.
So I asked Fabio if he was into
some folk music and to play
with us, and so he said
yes and then we played
with this combination of
bagpipes or saxophones
with more common accordion,
guitar, and violin [inaudible].
>> Stephen Winick: Great.
And you mentioned that
you were studying music
in the same place as Fabio.
So talk a little
about the training
that the different members
of the band have in music.
>> Fabio Di Meo: Well, we
all went to music school
as children, as teenagers, and
then afterwards, four of us went
on to study at the conservatory.
So we studied music.
We majored in music.
We have our master's degree
in music except for Bert.
Bert studied something else.
But he is still a
quite good musician.
You don't need to study
music to be a good musician.
Some people are just good
and don't need to go study.
That's actually also an
influence you can hear
in our music that
we play freely,
but we also have this
educational background
which allows us to
think a little further
in our arrangements and to
make, like, concert music
that is a little bit more
interesting to listen
to than just playing
tunes from A to Z
and just go straight ahead.
And that makes our music a
little bit agreeable to hear
for people who are not
really into folk music
because I can understand
people who are not
into folk music say it's always
just a tune and just playing,
playing, playing, which is fun.
I like it when you're at the
festival just having fun.
But I can understand
when you go to a concert
after three songs you're
like again with the boom,
boom, boom, boom, boom.
So our music has
a lot of layers,
and these layers just came
about with the education we had
of listening to music and
of arranging music that kind
of way, which makes that
we use each instrument
for its capability,
what she can do.
It's not just everybody
plays the melody
and the guitar plays
some chords.
No, it's like you can do this
with your instrument,
you can do this.
And the education made us able
to discover our instruments
from all the aspects we can do,
and even now if we do new tunes,
we discover new ways to
play on our instruments.
Oh, this is cool.
We can do this as well.
And that education just made
it that we know our instrument
that well that we can know
and also what we can do
with the instrument
because there's a lot
of things you can do but that
you're not good enough to do.
So you know where to stop
and you know I'm not going
to do this because it's
going to suck on stage,
but I have a different
way to do it.
So yeah.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: I think
also that the personalities
and the musical interests
of each band member is
pretty distinct in a way.
I mean, we all like
folk music and tunes.
That's of course how we met
each other, but, like, Jeroen,
our fiddle player, studied jazz
violin and really likes also
to listen to it and
improvisations as one.
While I think Pieterjan and
Jonas are also formed and active
in baroque music also.
Fabio works for the
Royal Concert Hall
and also knows a lot about jazz
music but also classical music.
And, yeah, I listen to
a lot of folk music,
and of course the collection of
all those influences and ideas,
you know, the music you
listen to, the bands you like
and also formation of course,
it highly influences
an arrangement.
But Pieterjan is the one
who makes more than 90%
of the arrangements, so we
often start from his idea
and then everybody interprets
according to their taste
and capabilities of course.
>> Stephen Winick:
Well, Pieterjan,
if you could say a little
then about how you come
up with an arrangement.
I mean, what's your process
for taking a tune and making it
into a WÖR presentation.
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
It depends how much
time I have [laughs].
Sometimes it's not enough.
But most of the time, like,
it starts with taking one
of the books of the
period because we work
with several manuscripts
actually of the 18th century.
And then it starts
with just reading.
Most of the time it's in the
night when it's quiet at home
and just playing
a bit on a piano
and just looking for good tunes.
And the strange thing is
that maybe I have read those
books already 20 times,
and every time there is
different melodies coming up.
So it's also the maybe
taste of the moment.
And then most of the time
I just select some tunes
and just play a bit around
but not more than that.
And then the tunes that get in
my head, like they turn around
and then one moment I start
-- mostly it's at the piano --
and I start from a baseline or
nice harmonies to this melody.
Well, what you often
have with folk music is
that the melody is
quite I would say --
it's very predictable what chord
you should add to this melody.
The game is actually to
avoid the most common chords
and to look for different chords
to color the melody
in a different way.
Then it depends on the melody.
It depends on if it's a
slow tune or a fast tune,
or it's the melody that stays
important and I work around it,
like adding bridges
and different chords.
Or it's more about the
chords and the atmosphere,
and the melody is
just one of the layers
on top of all of this.
But that depends on the tune.
And then, as Bert said, I
do not write every score
for each musician.
It's like the basic idea like
that it has a proper length,
so it already has the buildup
and I have an idea
who can play what.
But that's just some
notes on a score
and then it goes to the band.
And when we start like we
did last week [inaudible]
in a rehearsal and just playing
a tune from the top to the end,
and then everybody comes up
with his own thing special
to his instrument and
his style of playing.
>> Stephen Winick: Great.
Yeah, and you can really tell
listening to WÖR compared
to a lot of other folk
bands that you're thinking
about not having the predictable
chords, you know [laughs]
because so many groups do
go with the obvious chords.
There's nothing wrong with
them, and they make sense.
But it's also kind of cool to
hear a group that's, you know,
suddenly doing chords that
sound like jazz or they sound
like classical variations,
you know?
It's cool to hear your
music for that reason.
That's one of the reasons
that you really, I think,
would appeal to people who
think about music a little more
than sort of just
a regular listener.
So it's kind of musician's music
in a way, which is really neat.
So thanks for putting all
that work into those ...
>> Pieterjan Van
Kerckhoven: Yeah.
It's a pleasure.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
So I guess another question,
and this is sort of going back
in your own lives, I guess.
But how do young people
in Belgium today
get into folk music?
How do you find it?
How does it become
part of your life?
>> Bert Ruymbeek: I think
nowadays you can study
and some music schools
offer it, so that's a way.
For me, it was through
a venue in my hometown.
There are some festivals.
So that's often the way.
You can hear folk music
through the radio,
and that's also how
people discover it.
There are some shows about it,
but it's not the
most common genre
of course on national radio.
But these are the ways,
but it stays kind of niche.
There's a lot of effort put
in to break it open and give
as much people access to it, and
I also think it's going upwards.
But, yeah, of course not
everyone, and if I would ask
in my street who knows
how a Flemish bagpipe
or a French bagpipe looks like,
I think not half
will know obviously.
It's not the most common genre.
Yeah.
>> Pieterjan Van
Kerckhoven: But you need
to find the right persons
that know the scene a bit,
and if you know the scene, there
are quite much opportunities
to get in contact with.
We have a very lively
Balfolk scene, for example,
where a lot of musicians --
for example, also we
played our first concerts,
like not as a concert but as a
Balfolk to entertain dancers,
and it's a scene where
you can perform the rest
of your life if you'd like.
And then the venue where Bert
talked about in his hometown,
that was also the place where I
discovered folk music the most
because it's a venue
that invites a lot
of international artists
and liked this venue.
It's called The Air [phonetic].
We have also a very big
festival called Gooikoorts.
We have some very good
traditional music stashes,
so it's like workshop week,
Wallonia and in Flanders.
So there are quite a lot
of opportunities you have
if you're really
into folk music.
But you have to find them.
You have to get in touch
with somebody that plays.
>> Fabio Di Meo: I guess it's
the same with a lot of stars
of music which are
not pop or rock.
It depends on your
parents as well.
I mean, if you have parents who
are into that kind of music,
well, the chances are big
that you will also come
in contact with that music.
And if they're not, like
my parents were not,
it depends on your friends.
I mean, I had friends who
played in those bands,
and one of my friends
played in a band also
which was called Ido [phonetic],
and he always took me, say,
come with me to [inaudible]
which is a festival --
it's very nice --
just to have fun.
And so you come in contact
with all those people
and with that music.
Yeah, you know a
guy who knows a guy.
How did you come to
play classical music?
It's easier because you go
to music school and
you learn music.
But why did you go
to music school?
Because your parents made you?
Because you're interested?
Because a friend of you
plays piano and you want
to play piano as well?
So it's actually also
where did you grow up,
how did you grow up,
in which neighborhoods?
Did you have a lot
of access to music?
Didn't you have access to music?
I mean, why do you play guitar
and you don't play saxophone,
or why do you play violin
and you don't play the harp?
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
There are also these festivals
where you have pop or rock bands
with influences from folk music,
and on those festivals,
sometimes you have folk
bands next to pop bands.
And there some people discover
also the more folky way
of playing and not more the
poppy way of performing there.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: And we
have the Dranouter Festival
which is the first weekend
of August, and that I think
for a lot of people made
them discover folk music.
It's a bigger festival which
affects a lot of people
and where is also
folk music next
to pop music and
rock or similar.
It's all genres around also
traditional music there.
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
And what is folk music, yeah.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: Yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: So this
Flemish dance music tradition
that you play in or use as
part of your repertoire,
in the concert you talk
a lot about the carillon,
and we'll talk about
that in a second too.
But, you know, before
that and beyond that,
there's a larger sort of
tradition of Flemish dance music
and dance music across Europe.
So how does that survive
now for you to access?
I know you use manuscripts
a lot.
You must have had other
players that you listen to.
How do you find tunes basically?
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
Well, the books are actually --
they're in private collection
or they're in libraries,
but actually I think of
all the books now we have
them digitally.
So everybody at work
has the PDFs.
And if somebody likes it, you
can always send us an email
and we're happy to share.
So that's work done by other
people to digitalize this music,
and it's a very specific moment
and period in music style.
So sometimes there is a
connotation to dance music
but it's more like in the
baroque way of, right,
it's a bourrée or
it's a [inaudible]
or it's a chaconne,
it's allemande.
It's all those types
you find also
in baroque music
scores, for example.
And then [inaudible] but
I guess you all know,
but [inaudible] is very small
if you compare it to America.
So where really the crossroads
of Europe are all types
of dances and tunes and sort
of music, travels true Belgian
and maybe some musicians picked
up some nice tunes from Belgium,
and a lot of Belgian
musicians probably picked
up some nice melodies from
other regions around Belgium.
And it's the same with dances
because you can see
the polonaise.
That was a dance from Poland,
for example, became
very popular.
The waltz became very popular.
And all those dances
are still danced today.
But also the same,
it's not anymore
as the historical
way of dancing.
It's not like with all
those different figures.
It has changed a lot, and
I guess it's a good thing
to have it as a living thing
and not as a museum thing
because also that still exists.
We don't call it a [inaudible]
dance like dances of the people.
And there they try to have the
figures and all the dances right
as it used to be
like maybe 50 years,
maybe 100 years,
maybe 150 years ago.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: And one of
the biggest dance festivals,
folk dance festivals [inaudible]
happening in Belgium,
Boombalfestival, and that meant
a lot for starting musicians
as PJ already said to get
experience and gives a lot
of occasion to play for
dancers and dance music.
>> Stephen Winick: So
this tradition existed
as you say both in folk
tradition and in the work
of composers, and you have
these wonderful manuscripts
that you work with
to access this music.
So one of the things
we always appreciate,
because we are the
Library of Congress,
is the fact that people use
these resources, library
and archive resources.
So could you say a
little bit about what kind
of resources there are in
Belgium for finding this music,
these archival versions
of the music?
>> Bert Ruymbeek: I
think there are song --
over a period of time,
there are several sources.
We use manuscripts,
often city manuscripts.
For example, also the Booklet of
Fambelo [phonetic] is a booklet
that fell behind the organ
of a church in the --
yeah, the year on the book says
1746, and the organ was restored
in the '70s, in 1970s.
And then they took
away the pipes.
I found that booklet.
But they also don't --
as PJ said, in the '60s,
a lot of field recordings
have been done
and music has been written down.
There are the songbooks
of course.
Then it depends a bit from
when you want to start counting
because from the 1400s you
have the [inaudible] manuscript
or the [inaudible] book.
That's 1500 and a bit.
So, yeah, there are
a lot of resources,
and we chose the 1700s as a
period because I think also PJ
and Jonas have a
training in baroque music.
And it's a period of time
where that distinction is
between traditional music and --
there is a lot of baroque
influence and traditional music,
and that we thought
was interesting.
>> Pieterjan Van
Kerckhoven: Yeah.
And it's also the
1780s comes actually
from a book from Leuven.
I used to live next to a church
where there was a big carillon
in Leuven, and the book
from [inaudible] was
found in that church.
Like, he was the belltower
musician and organ player
in that church in Leuven.
And that was 1780 on the
score, so [inaudible] 1780s.
So it's a bit like
I guess we find them
in personal collections and
then some of it, the work,
for example, is done by
[inaudible] who was involved
with the Music Instrumental
Museum of Brussels.
But he did a lot of work
to make a lot of scores,
for example, of the music.
But it's a lot of
these brass bands
or [inaudible] music
we say in Dutch.
And then you also have now
-- nowadays, for example,
there is in Wallonia a
new project that started.
It's Project [inaudible], and
they start now to digitalize
and to write down
all field recordings.
For example, for Wallonia,
I have another person,
it's Olivia [inaudible] also
wrote down all the tunes
from the 18th century and
19th century of Wallonia.
For example, Hegemon Dewitt
[phonetic] is a musician,
also bagpipe player, and then
all play because he plays a lot
of instruments, and he's very
good in making instruments
from rubbish, actually.
That's one of [inaudible].
But his band was called
[inaudible] they have recorded,
I don't know, maybe
25 albums or so.
And from each period of time,
they recorded almost everything
they could find, I guess.
So that's a big resource too.
Well, there are quite
a lot of resources.
That's why actually we also
limited ourself to this period,
and also the music still
sounds a bit like --
it sounds together still.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
It holds into one -- yeah,
you can identify it
as a thing, yeah.
That's very interesting.
So we've mentioned the
bagpipes a number of times,
and I guess it's sort of
something that's iconic
of Flemish culture in a way
because you mentioned them
as the Bruegel bagpipes.
So talk a little
bit about your pipes
because that's an
interesting instrument.
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven: I
guess it will be me [laughs].
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
So the pipes I play,
we call them the Bruegel pipes.
Some say it's the Flemish pipes,
and it's actually a
bagpipe that's found
on the paintings of Bruegel.
And he worked between Amsterdam
and Brussels, so it's a bagpipe
of the lowlands we can say too
because for those who would
like to know more about
bagpipe history, there are more
than 140 different
types of pipes.
Everyone knows the loudest.
But there are a lot
of different pipes.
We say in Europe, every
region has its own bagpipe.
In France, for example,
they have 27
or so different sort of pipes.
In Belgium, we only have three
pipes that we still know of.
And actually the pipes I
play, it's a reconstruction
after the paintings, and
there is one instrument found
in the museum in [inaudible].
Vienna, yeah, yeah.
And with the folk
revival, first in Belgium,
they adapted Scottish
pipes, made it look
like the Bruegel pipes, and
then people like [inaudible]
for example and also
in France [inaudible]
and other bagpipe builders
started to do a lot
of work to research work.
And they find also there's
instruments, for example,
in Vienna and made the
bagpipe sounds again.
But it's a reconstruction again.
There is not an instrument left
over from the 16th
century bagpipes.
But the sound is common to
the Central France bagpipe.
There are bagpipes like this
in Germany and in England too
that have the same
color of sound.
And to compare it, you have the
Scottish one that's the loudest.
I play also the [inaudible]
which is a general
music instrument,
the Baroque pipes from France.
That is a soft one.
The Galician is a bit louder
than ours because our bagpipe is
with double reeds like
an oboe or a bassoon.
And then you have bagpipes
with a single reed,
more like a saxophone
or a clarinet.
But they have totally
different sounds,
and you find those
instruments more in the east
of Europe, for example.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah, yeah.
So one thing that I notice
seeing you play the [inaudible]
well, a couple of things
we might as well mention.
It's a bellows-blown bagpipe.
Is that right?
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
Well, not traditionally.
>> Stephen Winick: I see.
Okay.
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
On the [inaudible] Bruegel,
they're all blowing [inaudible].
>> Stephen Winick:
Yeah [laughs].
But yours has a bellows.
>> Pieterjan Van
Kerckhoven: Yeah.
It's an adaption I made
because I play this [inaudible],
and that's always
with the bellows.
I have different other types
like the [inaudible] pipes,
for example, or the Northumbrian
smallpipes are with bellows.
And my bagpipe builder
is building [inaudible]
and the bagpipes,
the Flemish bagpipes,
and so I adapt those
all to the bellows.
It began as an ear problem.
I couldn't blow for a period,
and then I never went back
to the [inaudible] instrument.
There are some advantages
here with [inaudible].
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
Well, another thing
that I noticed is
when you're fingering it, is
there one drone that's set
into the common stock
with the chanter
but then another drone
on your shoulder?
>> Pieterjan Van
Kerckhoven: Yeah.
Well, I play two different ones.
There is one with two
drones in the front.
That's the real Bruegel pipes,
and then the other
one is an adaptation.
It's like more the
Central French one
where there's the little drone
which gives the same note
as the tonic note of the chanter
that is next to the chanter,
and then the other one is going
to the shoulder or
also in the front.
It's your choice.
>> Stephen Winick:
Very interesting.
So thank you.
So we had talked
about the bagpipes,
but there's other instruments
in the group of course.
And someone mentioned
that the saxophone is a
Belgian invention.
So let's talk about the
saxophone as well in the group,
and maybe Fabio could
talk about his instrument.
>> Fabio Di Meo: Let's make
the discussion interesting.
[ Laughter ]
The saxophone, one of the most
beautiful instruments there is.
It is a Belgian invention,
but it was created.
It was made popular in France
actually, so it was invented
by Adolphe Sax, who
lived in Dinant,
which is actually the world's
smallest city, I think, Dinant.
It's a fact.
It's very beautiful
if you want to visit.
There's saxophones everywhere.
So he patented this
idea in 1830,
something like this,
the early 1800s.
And actually he came on
the idea to put a reed
on a brass instrument.
So his main idea was he worked
with brass instruments first,
the saxophones, which we
still know as instruments
like the euphonium or the
baritone, which it's called.
Those are saxophones.
And his idea was to make
the sound projection towards
the public.
So a lot of instruments,
their sound projection,
like the violin is here.
You play it here.
So if you're over there,
you hear it differently.
And so he made it like the
clarinet, you play it down,
but the trumpet, you
play it in front.
And so he wanted to make
more instruments like this.
So that's why the saxophone
you see its bellow is always
directed to the public
except the soprano,
but that's a different story.
So he came on the idea
to use a fingering system
of woodwinds on brass
instruments.
So that's where it all starts.
So he created the ophicleide,
which is this big
weird instrument.
You can find it on the
internet, ophicleide.
And it's actually a
woodwind-type instrument played
with the mouthpiece
of a brass instrument.
It's not that great.
It still exists, but it
wasn't that successful.
So then he said, I'm
going to put a reed on it.
And so actually he came
to invent the saxophone.
Actually, the first model
was the baritone saxophone,
which I play.
And then it started
out in France.
They used it to replace
the clarinets
when it was bad weather
for the marching bands.
So, actually, in the
military, they start using it
because wood is fragile.
It's very difficult to mend
when you have problems.
So they said, oh, the saxophone
is actually a brass clarinet.
That was the idea.
So actually, historically, what
happens a lot of people say,
a lot of people learn to play
the saxophone like a clarinet,
which is disgusting [laughs].
So at the beginning, the
saxophone was really learned
by clarinet players because
the fingering is similar,
the type of blowing is similar.
And so the sound of the
saxophone was actually the sound
that most people like was
created by jazz musicians
because before that, classical
musicians were often clarinet
players playing the
saxophone as well,
so they didn't play the
saxophone with the intention
of playing saxophone but
just playing an instrument
which is similar
to the clarinet.
And had a great evolution
on the saxophone then.
Actually, America
has a lot of artists
which made the saxophone
work, not only jazz
but also classical
in the early 1900s.
A lot of American musicians
played the saxophone classically
and made it a little
better than what --
made it known to
go into orchestras
and as sole instrument.
But then the jazz came,
and the difference
between the sound is
mainly the way you play it,
whereas the classical musician
plays it like a clarinet,
which you put your underlip
on your teeth and you bite
down on your instrument.
Whereas jazz -- I'm not going
to teach you how jazz existed
because it's an American thing,
but I'm just going
to say some things.
Where the jazz musicians
started to play instruments,
they didn't really
go to music school.
They're just like here's
a trumpet, play on it.
So they just blow on a trumpet.
Oh, there's a sound coming
out, I'm going with it.
It's the same with
the saxophone.
When you saxophone
player jazz playing
on it, he just blows on it.
It doesn't have like this --
there wasn't a teacher that said
you have to put your lip here
and you have to put
your cheeks like this.
It was just [blowing].
It's a totally different sound,
which actually makes a
jazz sound, and that makes
that instrument in terms
of sound so, so wide.
There's so many ways to
play that instrument,
and you can play it loud.
You can play it soft.
You can play it very
classically.
You can play it very, very
ugly, which is also the type
of sounds people like.
And it's Belgian.
It's one of the good things
of Belgium like waffles
and fries except that those
waffles and fries in America,
you kind of made it worse.
But with the saxophone, you
made some good things with it.
[ Laughter ]
>> Stephen Winick:
That's a good point, yeah.
No, it's true because people
think about, you know,
the saxophone, and the first
thing they think of is jazz.
So they have this
American impression,
but it's very interesting the
history of the instrument.
But another thing that's kind of
interesting about that is that,
you know, in most forms of folk
music, what we call folk music,
the folk music scene,
people don't use the saxophone
very much, and it might be
because it's so associated
with jazz in people's minds.
But it's interesting that you
as a band have embraced
the saxophone that much.
So what do you think about that
in terms of why it might be
that it's not that
common in folk music?
>> Fabio Di Meo: Well, it is.
When a lot of bands start,
like you said, how do you come
in contact with folk music?
Well, often you come in contact
with folk music festivals,
Balfolk, and those musicians
of course play mostly the
traditional instruments you see
in folk.
So it's an evolution
that's starting.
You see more and more
people playing the saxophone
in traditional music.
I think also that but
not only the saxophone,
people started doing it because
you can play every key on it.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Fabio Di Meo: If you
play the Irish flute,
okay, these are the keys.
If you play the bagpipes,
these are the keys.
If you play another key, I
have to take another bagpipe
or I have to take
another instrument.
So people started choosing
like the classical flute
because you can play all the
keys or the soprano saxophone
because you can play all the
keys, which makes it very easy
to play a lot of things.
And so you can see an evolution.
More and more bands
play saxophone
or brass instruments
into the folk music.
And I think it has to do that
more people come in contact
with folk music now than before,
so you will have more variety
of musicians who play
different instruments
who say I want to
play folk music.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
>> Fabio Di Meo: Yeah, but
you play the electric guitar.
Yeah, but why can I do it?
And so you have rock folk
music, folk rock coming
out of -- I play the drums.
It's not a folk instrument,
but, yeah, it can be cool.
And so it just needs
time to adapt and to come
into the scene and then yeah.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
Well, you know, you mentioned
playing in all the keys.
So I play in a group,
I sing in a group
that has an accordion player,
and she plays both button
accordion, which, you know,
she can only play
in a couple of keys.
It's a melodeon.
But she also plays
piano accordion.
So, Bert, talk about accordions
and that issue of the keys
and how you get into
the different tunes
with your accordion.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: Yeah.
Accordions are not
really standardized.
Most people know the
four types of saxophones.
Then, okay, a bass saxophone,
there will be some
variations, but let's say.
There's standardization there.
And of course with accordions,
it's a pretty modern instrument,
and I think it became
very quick very popular.
And what is a bit
amazing about it to me is
that also the diatonic
accordions are accordions
that were simpler from the
beginning are still popular,
and it has something to do
I think also with the push
and pull of a melodeon.
Also defines often the groove
or the pace of a certain tune,
so the tune really sounds better
on that type of instrument.
While on a chromatic accordion,
the classical ones, you know,
those very heavy, you can
almost hide yourself behind it,
instrument, they have
all the possibilities,
but that doesn't mean that a
certain tune should sound worse
on another type of instrument.
And then of course, yeah,
the whole range of bandoneons
over concertinas, melodeons,
diatonic, chromatic,
piano keyboard, button
keyboard, and then even, like,
the type of instrument I play
is a chromatic button accordion.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: But I have
a very good friend here.
His name is also Bert.
He also plays the
chromatic button accordion,
but I have five rows and
the C is on the first row.
And his C is on the third row,
and you also have accordions
with the C on the second row.
So it means that, yeah,
I can't really play
on his instrument although it
looks exactly the same [laughs].
>> Stephen Winick: So the
fingering is totally different?
Even though it ...
>> Bert Ruymbeek: When
my accordion breaks down,
it's not easy to find
the same instrument.
That's my biggest stress.
It's the same with
the bagpipes, I think.
When something happens
to the bagpipes, yeah,
he can whistle on stage.
[ Laughter ]
But I like to be
[inaudible] I see
and I think we all see
the accordion a bit
as the glue between.
It's also my way of
playing that I really like
and making contrast also.
The lowest sound is really low,
goes under the baritone
saxophone.
I think the highest sound --
I mean, the fiddle can
technically go higher probably,
but in tune sound, no.
And playing with those contrasts
is -- also in terms of dynamics,
of course saxophones
can do that too,
but that's a bit how I see
my role within the band.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
Great. Thank you so much.
So there's one more instrument.
I mean, you mentioned there's
also of course guitar and fiddle
or violin, and there's
mandolin in your group as well.
But there's one instrument
that's really important
to your project about towers and
the concert that you did for us,
and that is the carillon, which
is a very unusual instrument,
also not specifically a Belgian
invention but a Dutch invention.
So it's interesting there too.
But talk about the
carillon a little bit.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: We're
not carillon players,
but we will use it
as good as possible.
We thought it was
interesting to make an album
and a concert program around
that for I think two reasons:
Main reason, we found a lot
of sources that were written
down by carillon players.
They were professional
musicians hired
by the city, so in
city archives.
And, secondly, it's
also an instrument
that really we can
pinpoint at our region,
let's say, the low countries.
And then also because of the
wars became known also outside
of Western Europe, let's say.
As I said in the beginning,
we like to interpret all tunes
we always say like with our ears
of today, what reaches
our ears as musicians
but also just sounds
[inaudible].
And carillon had a
bit the same function.
Someone played on the belltower,
and if you were near
it, you heard it anyway.
So it was very natural.
It was not music for
the rich or for the ones
who went to church, you know?
It was music that was really for
the people, and also for a lot
of occasions and nonreligious
occasions, there was music made
or written or played:
Celebrations, new mayor,
a king that will visit,
an organization that --
and you can also see it on
the type of organization
that existed 50 years
[inaudible].
So, yeah, that was something
that we thought there's
a lot of, how do you say,
flesh around it, you know?
>> Fabio Di Meo: It was
an instrument used to --
I mean, what do you do now
if you celebrate your
independence day?
Well, you put music systems
on, PA systems, and you play.
But that didn't exist back
then, so what did they do?
You had marching bands
or you had the carillon
playing some tunes
so the whole city could, like,
hear the king enter city hall,
and there was a march.
It was playing on the carillon.
We're not historians on
instruments, but you can say
that is what was created.
We need something loud for whole
city to hear, and what is loud?
Well, bells.
And we need to put it very high
so the whole city can
enjoy the music coming
out of those clocktowers
and yeah.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: Also
Flanders or at least some cities
in Flanders were
historically pretty --
had a lot of power during
the 1400s and 1500s,
the Middle Ages, Gentbrugge
and later on Antwerp, Brussels.
So it's also not a
coincidence that of course
that there are a lot of those
instruments here and a lot
of those towers, so
that's also a bit --
because we did some
research before we went to --
we spoke to some
carillon players
and then saw some instruments.
And that guy, it was
Luke Rumbard [phonetic],
who is an authority in
carillon playing and the history
of the instrument,
said it was the radio
of the late Middle Ages he said.
>> Stephen Winick: Right.
But yeah.
>> Pieterjan Van Kerckhoven:
These instruments have
a very typical sound.
What I find very nice about this
instrument is it still sounds
how it sounded back then.
So melodies we play, if you
have it sounded on a belltower
on a carillon, it
still sounds now
as people have heard
it back then.
So it's again a bit this
contrast between old and new.
We call ourselves new.
Well, it's the old
bagpipes and so --
well, there's not a clash
with like comparison
or like this link with the
past we like to put down.
>> Stephen Winick: Yeah.
And it's nice that you included
a real carillon and a player
in your video, so I'll
say that for our audience
if you're seeing this interview
before you see the concert
video, you can actually see a
portable carillon they might
say, a smaller version.
Yeah, right.
It could be wheeled around
maybe, but the normal version is
in a big constructed tower, so,
as you say, it was sort of --
you had to be a powerful city.
It was a municipal project to
build one of these instruments.
And I will also say for
our normal home audience
that we actually have a
carillon here in Washington DC
which was a gift from the
Netherlands in the 1950s,
and it's near Arlington
National Cemetery.
So it's actually in
Virginia in Arlington.
But if people who are fans of
WÖR and watching this video
and are in the Washington
DC area,
the National Park
Service curates a carillon
over in Virginia, which
you can go and see.
So the members of WÖR, we're
so thankful to you for coming
and doing this interview
with us.
And so I always like to ask at
the end whether there's anything
that I didn't ask that you
want to tell our audiences,
an American audience
in Washington,
about your instruments or
your music or your tradition.
>> Bert Ruymbeek: There's
something I want to tell
that we're going to play
in the US in November.
So if someone would
like to see us live,
they can see the
dates on our website.
>> Stephen Winick: All right.
So November 2022
we're looking forward
to seeing you here
in the United States.
>> Fabio Di Meo: Yes.
>> Stephen Winick: So once
again, Pieterjan and Fabio
and Bert, thank you so
much for being here with us
for this interview
in the Homegrown
at Home concert series.
>> Pieterjan Van
Kerckhoven: Thank you.
>> Fabio Di Meo:
It was a pleasure.