>> Sidney Madden: Hello, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us this evening. Some of you might be starting your day with this talk, ending your day with this talk. But we're so grateful to have you here. My name is Sidney Madden. I'm a music writer and a reporter, and I'm a co-host of Louder Than Riot podcast from NPR. [applause] And today we have none other than Danyel Smith. Danyel is an award-winning [applause]. An award-winning writer, editor, producer and host. With three decades of music and cultural criticism to her name, Danyel's pen has pioneered new paths for black people, specifically black women and black girls, to be all that they want to be and all they can be in pop, R&B, hip hop, as well as sports and style and more. She is the creator and host of Black Girl Songbook on Spotify [laughs], [applause] and of course, the author of "Shine Bright: A Very Personal History of Black Women and Pop." It's really personal. >> Danyel Smith: It's super personal. >> Sidney Madden: Yes. [audience laugh] Yes. Thank you for being here today, Danyel. >> Danyel Smith: I'm blessed to be here. I'm so happy to be here with you in particular. >> Sidney Madden: Thank you. >> Danyel Smith: Yes. >> Sidney Madden: How does it feel being this personal, having a mix of history, anthology, memoir all in one place and seeing it at the National Book Festival? >> Danyel Smith: Okay. So we're going to start off with me crying. [all laugh] That's what we're doing. I was just saying to you, it's wild enough that the book is here and alive in the world like that. Right there is just... Was such a long process that, you know, if there are any writers here or anyone that takes on a long project during which most of the time that you're creating it, you're by yourself, you can feel like, well, you know, it's just never going to come out. It's never going to be real. So just the fact that it is real, that people have read it, are reading it, are showing up to events like this, Library of Congress, it feels very shine bright. >> Sidney Madden: Shining for real. And it does get really real in this book. I've read time and time again from the book and also in your past interviews that you were very intentional about going deeper than summary with these women's lives. >> Danyel Smith: Yes. >> Sidney Madden: That you luxuriate in the details of sometimes the mundane about these giants of pop. Why was that part of the mission in writing the book? >> Danyel Smith: I feel like so often with black women in pop and really black women in general, when we're written about, when we're talked about, when our lives and careers and things are being discussed, there's so much focus on firsts. And it's very much like she's the first. I'm the first black Editor-in-Chief of Vibe and the first black editor of Billboard. And I am proud of these accomplishments. I worked hard for them, but there is actually much more to me and my career than that. There's the things that happen to me, and the things I made happen as a child and as a young woman to make those things happen. There's clothes I chose to wear. There's mentors I have or had to get rid of to get where I was going. You know, there's just more to us than I got here. It's like, what was the road? What was the journey? And I wanted to talk about that, even down to, like, how The Shirelles chose their wigs. This is important, and I can tell you that it's important in other ways, because when the Beatles were first written about, all they talked about were those floppy bangs, wasn't it? All they talked about was Bob Dylan's hair and all that. So why can't I talk about the Shirelles wigs or Mariah Carey's curls or whatever? And I wanted to talk about mine, too, and claim my space as a black woman in music. The work up first is important because as black people in this country, it matters. And I feel like there's so much important work being done in that space. But my space is let's get under the fingernails. I want to know what's going on. >> Sidney Madden: I want a visual of Aretha climbing trees. >> Danyel Smith: I do want the Aretha moment like that. I like to know about nail polish. I want to know about Aretha as a girl. We know when people talk about Aretha Franklin as a girl, we think trauma. We think she got pregnant when she was 12 years old, 11 years old, 13 years old. And so that's the picture that we have of her. But Aretha was a proper little girl, too, who rode her bike. You know, she climbed trees. She climbed over fences. She sang with her friends in people's backyards. And these are the things that I think are important. We think about Aretha Franklin. Oh, well, she never wanted to fly. And that was always kind of presented like it was a diva move or something. Or it's like, but whoever asked her why? Well, people have asked her and I did the reporting to find out why she was on a crazy flight one night. This is at a time when people like Otis Redding were going down in planes the Big Bopper, like rock and roll, was dying, falling from the sky. She just decided she didn't want to do it anymore, which is her prerogative. But it's just very rarely that idiosyncrasy of hers is talked about with compassion. So that was my job and it continues to be my job. >> Sidney Madden: I love how you said and you dug deep into finding what was the why. What was their prerogative behind these choices? Because it really debunks the idea and the brush off of being a diva. You do a lot of that work similarly in the Diana Ross chapter. Miss Ross, and that visual of you playing waitress during your parents cocktail party. And being like, why are they brushing her off for leaving the Supremes? >> Danyel Smith: I know. I write a lot about Diana Ross, very specifically about her solo career, which is one of the most award-winning, prolific and successful recording careers in the history of music. And that's not even counting her work with the Supremes. And I feel like we forget that "Endless Love", her debut, I mean, her duet with Lionel Richie is literally the number one selling duet in the history of recorded music. That is the legacy of Lionel Richie and Diana Ross. And it's almost never talked about. And I remember as we're talking about here, when I was much younger, I feel like my aunts and my mom's friends and stuff they were giving Diana Ross... This is like in the '70s or early '70s. They were giving her so much S-H-I-T for leaving the Supremes. Like she was, I don't know, killing the world like it was just so terrible. And the idea that she did or didn't ask people to call her Miss Ross, this was huge. This followed her throughout for decades. It follows her. Now when she was interviewed a decade ago by Oprah Winfrey. It's one of the first things Oprah asked her. Is it true that you ask people to call you Miss Ross? Now, Diana Ross has never copped to it and said she, in fact, did. But she does explain why. And if I did, what? [audience laugh] Like. And if I did, she was like, "When I was a little girl, we called women that we respected. Like if it was her, either Miss Diana or Miss Ross." I'm old enough now. God knows the folks be coming up to me talking about Miss Danyel. And I do want to look at them cross-eyed. I do. I'm I really Miss Danyel now. I'm Miss Danyel. But at the same time, it's like, yes, I'm very much Miss Danyel. So why shouldn't Diana Ross be Diana Ross? Lauren has asked to be called Miss Hill. >> Sidney Madden: Claim that space. >> Danyel Smith: Claim that space. And the other thing. And it really goes back to our history, which I talk about a lot and try to weave into almost everything about the women in Shine Bright. Is that we really did come over here, just like on ships laying in low casket like slots. And we're just like sold on piers and stuff like that for money. And one of the first things that happened to us was that whatever your name had been, wherever we came from, you were told that was not who you were anymore. And you would no longer be responding to that. And your name was Boom or blank or Baba or Uu, or whatever it was Sam, Bill, Leslie, whatever. So my thing is when... and I thought this at the beginning of rap, too. When people were like, I'm changing my name too. I'm not Todd Smith, I'm LL Cool J, I'm not Dana Owens, I'm Queen Latifah. So if Diana Ross wants to say, "You all can call me Miss Ross." I can't speak for y'all, but I'm going to be calling her Miss Ross. >> Sidney Madden: I love that. And speaking of all the details and the historical times that you pull on to really propel a lot of the narratives forward, there's the devil is in them, the devil is in those details. And what struck me rereading this a lot is the moments of joy and levity, you find through the strife and in spite of the strife. Because the women you chronicle here time and time again, and the women who birthed those women, just as you and your mother were undermined, underestimated, subjugated, maligned, sometimes physically, verbally, psychologically abused. >> Danyel Smith: Sure. >> Sidney Madden: From and I... you put it so poignantly from Phillis Wheatley being paraded around London while still in bondage. >> Danyel Smith: Yes. >> Sidney Madden: To Donna Summer being gaslit by the gatekeepers. >> Danyel Smith: Yes. >> Sidney Madden: Stephanie Mills magnetism being the driving force of the Wiz and being short-changed. >> Danyel Smith: Completely. >> Sidney Madden: Completely. >> Danyel Smith: I write a lot about The Wiz in Shine Bright. >> Sidney Madden: Even you being on The Wiz and haters not wanting to sit next to you on the bus when you tour The Wiz. >> Danyel Smith: Yeah. Yeah. >> Sidney Madden: Constant. >> Danyel Smith: Yeah. >> Sidney Madden: And even there's a passage on page 181. If anyone wants to open it up and read along with me. And it talks about just the systematic and deep-seated shortchangedness that black artists go through, and specifically black women. And it's at the bottom of the page. And if you are a black woman artist, in addition to being robbed, you must appear strong. You must bow to the tyranny of the swaying navel and maintain that 26-inch waist. Historically, you must put off bearing children or hand-off rearing them. Come last and pay and in credit given be called a whore or loose. Manage being a low-value target of physical and mental abuse and rape. And the cherry on top. All of this is known and documented, yet little changes. And then because she loves her craft and it is her livelihood. The black woman artists on alternate nights must sing the body electric, or sing the blues because she's got them bad. for real. >> Danyel Smith: My goodness. [audience laugh] Listen. I'm happy. All that's true. But I am happy that you mentioned the joy is there, too. One of the best parts about making this a "very personal history of black women in pop", is that I was able to call out my own joy and love of music, going to see the Jackson Five when I was eight years old at the Circle Star Theater in San Carlos, California. And Janet Jackson opened with her brother, Randy. And, you know, you just don't know that those moments really set your course in life. I'm not saying that I decided in that moment of joy, I acted a fool at that show. I ran away from my mother and sister, tried to get through the stage. Security brought me back. It was a whole and ridiculous drama. I was telling people, Michael Jackson touched my hand. I was 49,000 feet from Michael Jackson. But I fell in love with music. After that, everybody in my family knew if it was Christmas or my birthday, get Dany something musical, buy her an album, buy her a book about music and that kind of thing. And then I remember when I got to high school, someone from my high school is here today. When I went to see the Jacksons again at the Fabulous Forum in Inglewood, California. I was in the nosebleeds of nosebleeds, [Sidney laughs] and it was just one of the most joyous nights in my life to connect with a group that I connected with as an eight-year-old, as a 17 or 18-year-old. You know, and I write about it in Shine Bright. I almost felt like I could just as crazy, but just, like, faint. Or like fall over, like because music infuses me and so many obviously with so much joy, it actually makes you want to move your body. Like that's so powerful. It makes you want to cry. It makes you want to remember. It makes you... So that joy also is very much in Shine bright and, you know, joy and ambition and just you know, for so many black women, it was a way up and out. And so there's a lot of talk about that as well. >> Sidney Madden: Yeah, the balance of the pain and the joy, the levity with the depth is so crucial to this. And you've said before that your editor at One World Lit, Chris Jackson. >> Danyel Smith: Yes. >> Sidney Madden: He was the first one to say this is a good book, but it'll be a great book if you put yourself in it. I'm paraphrasing. >> Danyel Smith: Yeah, no, but that's pretty accurate. I could not finish it. It was taking me so long to finish Shine Bright, because what Chris Jackson bought. And he's an amazing editor. He edits Ta-Nehisi Coates and just so many amazing writers. And he just said to me, like, basically [claps] you're late, which as an editor myself is, you know, I just feel guilty and bad. And he was like, "I don't understand why you're not finishing, but I do think I do." He said, "Because you don't want to stop writing. Because you want to include everybody." He was like, "That's not how any of this works, though [laughs]. You're going to have to pick." And I think a way that might be helpful is if you make your choices very personal. And then I began to think, yes. I can write about the women that have meant the most to me in my personal and professional life. As a music journalist and editor and producer. And all the different things that I am and continue to be, I can write about the women like Gladys Knight. And the Dixie Cups and Diana Ross, the people that have meant so much to my mother and my aunts and her sisters. I can write about the people like Nancy Wilson, Ella Fitzgerald, Mahalia Jackson. I can write about their lives because they meant so much to my grandmother and my great aunts. And that's the music that I grew up listening to. Some people are like, "Why do you love Nancy Wilson like that?" First of all, I'm like, "How do you not?" Right? Guess who I saw today? [audience laugh] You hear what I'm saying? Like, as my grandmother would play that all the time. And I don't even know if I had a period where I didn't like it. I love the storytelling in that song in particular and her pacing. If anybody's familiar with the song and if you're not pleased to listen to it. But she sings and she's telling this story of. Guess who I saw today? She's talking to her lover, her partner. And she's saying how happy this person looked, this couple, this man and this woman. And how they look so deeply in love. And she keeps going back to guess who I saw today? And then she finally says, "It was you." How was a child not going to like that story? I've been looking for that sucker punch since then for the rest of my life. So I was like, so now I'm going to be able to finally read and research. And go back to my own experience. Thank God. Seeing Nancy Wilson live at Lincoln Center. Are you kidding me? That night, it's about two years before she died. She did like five costume changes. In what, her '80s? About halfway through the show, she said, "Y'all going to have to let Miss Nancy sit down. I'm not going to be singing all this standing up." Like, how am I not going to write about that joy. So that's how I was able actually to finish the book. That's what enabled me to make the choices that I made. And there's still much to do, but I feel like I got the right ladies and the right book right now. >> Sidney Madden: Yeah. When you did decide to infuse this with your personal narrative and your personal stakes, how did you decide how much of yourself to put in and how honest to be? And what were the psychological talks you had with yourself to do that? >> Danyel Smith: One of the first talks I had was with my sister. She's two and a half years behind me, and my business is her business. And her business is my business. She's a witness to me. I'm a witness to her. Her childhood is my childhood. And our childhood was. It was raggedy. I'm not going to say we didn't have some beautiful moments in there, but the parts that were violent so often overshadow the birthday parties, and the bike rides and the things the Jackson five concerts that bring me so much joy. So I was a little bit nervous to call my sister and say... Her name is Raquel. I said, Quel. She's a third-grade teacher. She don't have time for a lot of B.S., she said. [all laugh] I said, "Quel," walking up the slope. She's like, "What is it? Just spill it. Ask it." I said... The way I talk about my editor to my family. Is this, "The man up at my book job [all laugh]. The man up at my book Job said, "I should write more about me." And she's like, "Are you not finished with that book?" I said, "No, I'm not finished with the book." But the man up of my book job said, he suggested that I insert a bit more of myself in my story. So my story is your story. So I just want to make sure. She was like, "Girl, if you don't put me in there, I don't care if you put me in there naked. Just put me in there, like you should have been and wrote about yourself." God bless her heart. And she says, "Then you need to finish." And she did say, Tell it all. She said, "Tell it all." I said, "Some folks are going to be mad." She said, "I'm not." And so that helped me when I would say, am I going to include this detail? I would say, "Quel said, tell it all." I would say, "You know, is this going to be embarrassing to myself, my sister, my mother, my grandmother's memory?" These are real questions. But you know, I think it's the job of the writer of the artist. It's the job of me. And I've tried to do it my whole career, really, is to kind of call it as I see it. To take notes. And I've kept a diary since I was eight years old, to write down everything and to try to cull from those details what the real story is. And so I said, "I'm going to do that. About me and my sister. I'm going to really talk about how we got through it." And it really has helped me a lot. >> Sidney Madden: Was there any specific moment that took a lot of rewriting and a lot of journal entry going back to the archives to really get right? >> Danyel Smith: I think the Gladys Knight chapter was the hardest chapter for me to write? One because I was going to have to go out on a limb, which I don't mind. And I'll tell you what my limb is. My limb is this, Gladys Knight and the Pips 1973, "Midnight Train to Georgia". A number one pop single is my favorite song of all time. It doesn't matter. And I'm a hip-hop girl raised in the hip hop generation. It doesn't matter. That's my favorite song of all time. As with "Guess Who I Saw Today", I like songs with a story. And "Midnight Train to Georgia" is a story, and it's a story about a California girl. "L.A.," she says, "proved too much for the man." Everyone always thinks it's about Georgia. It's about a girl from L.A., about a girl from California. And I rocked into that as a kid because when it came out, I was, what, eight years old? But, you know, "Midnight Train to Georgia" is never not on the radio right now. >> Sidney Madden: Timeless. Yeah. >> Danyel Smith: That's the type of song it is. Type of story that it tells. And the other reason that I like that song so much is because I have an interpretation of it that's probably different than a lot of people's, which is the character that Gladys is portraying. I believe that she does not get on the train with her partner. I just don't see it. She says he pawned all his hopes. And even sold his old car. She didn't say she pawned her hopes. That's not what she said. And I heard this as a kid. I grew up to become a music writer because I paid attention. I always thought she packed him a lunch and got him to the thing. >> Sidney Madden: [laughs] You have the whole fish. What was in the lunch? >> Danyel Smith: I was like, "I'll be with you in spirit, in spirit, boo." [all laugh] Now. But no shots. Everybody's not meant for that type of journey. Everybody's not meant for it. The song has shaped me, actually. Any woman here, who works hard. Maybe outside the home. And has ambitions to be more and better and smarter and higher, and maybe isn't supported by her partner in those endeavors, whether you're from high school? They don't really. You know my pain. And so that song and then Gladys Knight chapter, where I did so much research about Gladys' life and her marriages and the way she ran her musical business. And that really tied into a lot of the trauma of my tween dumb and teenage years. So it was very, very hard to write that and it took a lot of rewrites. And I say probably every time I talk about my book that a different chapter is my favorite, or my best chapter in the book. But the facts are facts. The Gladys Knight chapter is, to me, the best chapter in the book, and it is my favorite chapter in the book. And it was the hardest chapter to write. >> Sidney Madden: You said before that pop is not a sound. >> Danyel Smith: It's not. >> Sidney Madden: It's not. And you cover gospel artists. You cover disco. There's Ska in here. So what do you mean when you say pop is not a sound? And talk to me about how specifically, pop is used to marginalize at times. >> Danyel Smith: You know, this is the part where it's good that I worked at Billboard. Billboard is the trade magazine of the music industry. And then it's also good that I worked as a music editor and editor-in-chief of Vibe, actually, editor-in-chief of Vibe two separate times, in two different decades. Because the Vibe we were about rigor and passion. And a Billboard, we were just about the rigor. So I got double the rigor. And one time as a passion. And I know for a fact that pop is not a sound. Pop is a race-based category, and it's supposed to be for white artists. And when black artists would cross over into it, it was very much seen as a threat by the industry and by the culture at large. That black people were moving in on spaces that had been very safe for rock artists, and not even so much for country artists. Because you know, the rock industry very much before the 1990s looked down on country music like it was some some hillbilly stuff or whatever. And it wasn't as cool as, you know, with the Beatles and the Beach Boys and stuff we're doing when we started actually counting records via a system called SoundScan. I guess late '90s, mid-'90s. Do you remember when we all used to buy albums and we would be at Tower Records? I know there's some folks in here that remember. And then you would pay for the record. And it was like being at the grocery store, right? It would be like beep beep, Beatles, Lionel Richie. Shit. Donna Summer. You know what I'm talking about, right? And that's how they counted records at that point. But before that, and I was a part of the business for the last part of the era, where the way that you would find out how many records are sold would be that people from Billboard would call Joe's Records in Atlanta and say, "What's up? Is this Bill? Is Joe there?" "No, Joe's not here." "Okay, so what is y'all sell this week?" And they would say, "Oh, I think we did about two Elton John. I think we did about one down the summer. I think..." Folks was just making stuff up. >> Sidney Madden: They were lying. Yeah, margin of error. >> Danyel Smith: It's just lying. A little bit of Bon Jovi. No, a lot of Bon Jovi. Ooh, a whole whole lot of Bon Jovi. No, we didn't sell any country at all. Why? Because it's at the back of the record store with the black music. People had to walk all the way to the back to even find it. And so when people like Michael Jackson, Whitney Houston, Lionel Richie began in the '80s to make the most powerful inroads into the pop space because records beep, beep, beep were actually being counted accurately. I'm not saying the system is flawless, but it's way closer than what's going on Bill and Atlanta. [audience laugh] And when it began to get counted accurately, we saw who was really selling records. And that was at that time, rap and country. Oh, my God. Nobody could take it. [audience laugh] The rock establishment really could not take it. And when you wonder why, everybody said Lionel Richie is a sellout, Diana Ross is a sellout. Whitney Houston, at the beginning of her career, was not beloved. She was called a sellout. She said they said she sounded white. Same about Mariah Carey. This is recent history. Pop is not a I don't even know what a pop sound is supposed to sound like, Poppy. Fine. I don't know. I'll tell you what it sounds like. It sounds like money. It sounds like credit being given where credit is due. It sounds like Whitney Houston not having to go around to white/pop radio stations and beg to be played. But she had to. If you're not a pop artist and you're playing on the chitlin circuit. And listen, I've been to a lot of good shows on the Chitlin Circuit. It still exists right now. I was just in New Orleans. Let me tell you something. New Orleans has live music every night of the week. Ain't nobody really getting paid, though. Shoot you $100 off the cash register. Help you get groceries for the week. That's like what you're getting paid. So why people got so mad is because now Whitney Houston can demand listen, I'm playing stadiums. My tickets are $150. I'm creating generational wealth. Why are you trying to keep me at the hoodspot? I like the hoodspot. I'll fall through the hoodspot if I feel like it. I want to hang with my folks. But you're not going to tell me that I cannot play larger stadiums. Ask Ella Fitzgerald, who had to kick down doors to integrate halls and ballrooms and stadiums. So when I say pop is not a sound, you know, that was a long way to go around. I do, but it's not a sound. We didn't sell. People didn't sell out. We got right. We began to charge what we were worth as black musicians and as black artists, men and women. >> Sidney Madden: I have a question about journalistic access. And since we're on the topic of Whitney as an example. >> Danyel Smith: Okay. >> Sidney Madden: The retelling of visiting Whitney, getting that Whitney cover for Vibe, playing Nerf football. >> Danyel Smith: I did. >> Sidney Madden: Going long. It brought up so many memories of me as also a music journalist having to contend with competitors, white publications, black publications and really having to sell your own personal buy-in and your personal worth to say why I should be the one to tell the story. Why the readers at your publication should get this story. And get this facet. How did that subjugation that you sometimes had to work against as editor-in-chief of Vibe or wherever it may be? How did you see that as an echo of the subjugation the women faced in this book? >> Danyel Smith: Oh, you mean, like. >> Sidney Madden: How did you see yourself fighting the same battles as them? >> Danyel Smith: Well, I saw myself fighting the same personal battles as them because I wanted up and I wanted out. I wanted to be the photo editor of my yearbook. Yes, I did it in high school, but I also wanted to then write for the local papers. And then I wanted. Then when I saw that I was pitching stories, and someone else always had the decision making power, and I was like, "Well, why can't I be on that side of things? Why can't people be pitching to me?" And then once I saw that when you were in that position of being music editor, that you still had to pitch to the editor-in-chief. Then I was like, "Well, shoot." [all laugh] I was like, "Is that available?" Because if that's available, I want to be on that track. And it was hard. It was hard for the same reasons that it was hard for Gladys Knight, Donna Summer, or any Ella Fitzgerald, Jody Watley, Janet Jackson. Millie Small. So many. Linda Peaches Greene from Peaches and Herb. Marilyn McCoo. Aretha Franklin. Candi Staton. Like all of us, I can't sing a lick even though I was at a part of The Wiz. I can't sing a lick. But our problems are similar in that we didn't get a lot of support that people didn't believe. And people felt that because we were black women, we needed to stand down. Yeah. Too much mouth. You got too much opinion. You're singing too loud. You didn't really write that. I wrote that. These are our problems, so. I felt that commonality. And then I think also just in particular running Vibe. I think people look back on the Vibe eras and say, "Who else has some beautiful magazines?" I got my Vibe every month. And it would get there, and we would just see the covers. And ooh, they were beautiful and the stories were written so well. And it came every month like Clockwork. Let me tell you something. We were putting that magazine out on Spit and Glue. Honey, we didn't have any type of real budget. We were... What does my mother say? Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul? And listen. Listen. It was hard. Like the facts are facts. When I got hired as the music editor at Vibe, I could not believe that. I did not even ask anything about how the magazine was doing, before I said yes to the job because Alan Light. And if he was here, he's on Sirius every day. You can listen to him tell his Bob stories too. Alan Light came into mine. I had an office. When had I had a real office before? I thought I was so fancy. I was putting posters up. Alan said, "Listen, so a couple of things, okay? So we have three months to get this magazine turned around or they're shutting it down." This is when I was music editor. Like, we were always fighting to stay alive. I know how to call the paper company and say, "Do you all have remnants for sale of these big giant rolls of paper? Big as this room that they print magazines on that we could no longer afford to buy. So my CFO taught me how to tap dance for remnants to go last on the press. This is black media. This is what it's really like. This is even our biggest and most favorite stars like Whitney Houston. She is my heart and I'm blessed to have spent the time with her that I did. But Whitney's publicist certainly told me she was not going to be doing any black press on this particular run. >> Sidney Madden: For waiting to exhale. Like the irony. >> Danyel Smith: Ma'am. You guys don't know me that well, and I'm really playing nice up here on this stage. But you should ask yourself how I acted. [all laugh] I mean, I kept it, Christian. But I had to outline some things about how I didn't feel that Team Whitney was taking her most important and core fans into the proper consideration. And that if Whitney did not want to be a part of Vibe on this run, then we could certainly write a story about that. And you see, we got our cover. [all laugh] So I'm saying, like, do I see myself in these women's stories? Are you kidding me? Like the stuff they had to go through to even be signed. I remember you guys know Peaches and Herb reunited, and it feels so good. "Shake your Groove Thing", all these things. Okay, so the woman that was Peaches is really one of, like, seven different women. And she's from the DMV, as a matter of fact, Linda Peaches Greene is. >> Sidney Madden: P.G. County. >> Danyel Smith: Yes. She's the one that was actually there for all the big pop hits. But first of all, can we just talk about the fact that you just feel it's okay to just have a different black woman. But everybody name is Peaches. Like people have really said to me, there's more than one Peaches. I'm like, "Ma'am, they're seven." [audience laugh] And there might be a. Because Lord knows they still touring right now. You could go to Atlantic City and see them and they put on a good show. But it's not Linda Peaches Green. She's living a whole different other life, but it's like, there's that. And then I remember she also told me. When she finally got signed as Peaches and Herb. She said, "I really don't know how the other girls did it. That didn't have their fathers, or didn't have their brothers." She said, "Because my daddy would have come up there with a gun. If somebody had tried to do to me what these label executives had done to so many of my sisters in spirit." So it's like. Do I see myself in their struggle? Yes. And that's also, to me, the gift of black women singers. Is that we all see ourselves in their struggle. You don't even have to be another black woman. Is something about us. The way we translate pain. And to what can feel like joy. It is so invitational. It's so like. Everybody. Join in with me as I tell you this story about my son, Zion. Just join in with me. Like, how did she make that happen? There's something in us. And that's why I was so serious about including the earliest history of black people in this country, because that is what is it in us that makes us that way. So. Frankly wonderful. >> Sidney Madden: [laughs] Spanning so much time. You take us from Phillis Wheatley all the way to Rihanna and Cardi B are some of your last mentions. >> Danyel Smith: Yes. Yes. >> Sidney Madden: Thinking about continuing this canon. Who are some contemporary black women who you would add to Shine Bright now? Who were some who are not just the next wave, but who are the sea change and who are adding more to the conversation, more to the narrative about black womanhood in this country? >> Danyel Smith: Too many. You already said Cardi. She's my absolute favorite. So underrated. Carrying the entire music industry. State of New York. City of New York on her back. Came about the strip clubs like it just wasn't even a problem. And like it was regular and it was going to be fine. And I'll see you while in the winner's circle. I really admire Cardi B, I love Jhené Aiko. I love Ella Mae, man. Listen, who's my Detroit rapper? I heard you, W-I-T-C-H was looking for me. I can't think of her name. Kash Doll. Oh, I love Kash Doll. I do believe she just had a baby. There's too many. Rihanna will never have to make another record for me. You guys can keep begging her. I'm laughing at y'all. [audience laugh] I mean, she might, but would you? [Sidney laughs] I wouldn't. To deal with all the wildness. Maybe she will. Because Lord knows she's having her Zion moment. You know, she didn't have to live the life that Lauren lived when the record executives pressured her not to have her child. Which is why she wrote that song and sings that song so well. Because they told her not now. And Cardi has spoken on it and said they tried to tell her that too. There's too many. Lizzo. Oh, my goodness gracious. She brings me joy. And people are like, "Oh, she's too pop." I'm like, "She's too Lizzo for y'all. Don't be mad." Like, don't be mad. So glorious. I love her. I'm seeing all types of we're going over time. I could go on all day about who I think is next. And I'm sure it's some dynamic singers and rappers, black women out of D.C. that I wish I knew who they were right now so I can mention them. >> Sidney Madden: Well, the cannon is strong. The brand is strong. Thank you, everybody, for joining us for this conversation. This has been "Shine Bright: A Very Personal History of Black women in Pop". And this is Danyel Smith. Give it up. [audience applause] >> Danyel Smith: Thank you for having me. [instrumental music]