>> Sasha Dowdy: Welcome, everybody, to the Library of Congress National Book Festival. I hope you're having a good time. Welcome back in person. This is so exciting to see authors in person again. My name is Sasha Dowdy. I'm supposed to tell you about this boring grown-up before we get into the good stuff. But I work at the Library of Congress, and I'm one of the people who gets to put together book programs at the library, and I work with the kids. So that is the best thing ever. And this is the ultimate collection of book programs, the National Book Festival, and it cannot happen without our sponsor. So thank you to our sponsors. And just by the way, I'm subbing in for my friend Stephanie Handy. She works at Library of Congress as well, but couldn't make it today. And the smart questions are hers and the silly ones are mine. So I hope you all got something signed, ate some snacks, did something fun. And we're going to talk about kids who eat snacks and take breaks, but they also change the world and they are still kids. And we're going to talk about those two things. This panel is called "How many Times Do Kids Have to Save the World? Deep Adventure Stories" with authors Lev Grossman and Julian Randall. [audience clapping] You'll find out all about them. But before we dive in, I just want to tell you that we will have a chance to ask these authors questions during the last 10 minutes of the program. And you can also go to their signing at 5:30 to 6:30. All right. We can get started and we'll go with the general information. Could you please tell us about yourself, and the book that you're presenting today? >> Lev Grossman: Oh, man, I didn't know you're going to ask that. [laughs] My name is Lev and I am a writer. And I wrote a book called "The Silver Arrow", which was about a kid who discovers that the Earth is encircled by an invisible network of train tracks. And these trains have as their clients animals. And then I wrote a book called "The Golden Swift". Where she rides around on the train some more. >> Sasha Dowdy: Fantastic. >> Lev Grossman: Thanks. >> Sasha Dowdy: Julian. >> Julian Randall: Cool. What's up, y'all? Can you hear me? All right. Cool. All right. My name is Julian Randall. I'm the author of "Pilar Ramirez" and "The Escape from Zafar". It is a story about a 12 year old Black Dominicana aspiring documentary filmmaker. She is from Logan Square, Chicago, just like me. And she has been trying to put together a documentary about her cousin, Natasha, who disappeared 50 years ago during the Trujillo regime, which dominated the Dominican Republic for 31 years. So she's been asking her mommy. She's been asking her abuela, she's just trying to get some information. But as is often the case when we're asking older family members about, like hard periods in their lives, she's not making much progress, until one day she finds herself sucked through a page, like a blank page inside of a folder which has her disappeared cousin's exact name and date of disappearance on it. And finds herself in the magical world of Zafar, which had been dominated by the Dominican boogeyman El Cuco, for hundreds of years. So now she has to find her power, find her history, and find her way back home. >> Sasha Dowdy: It's very, very straightforward story. [panelists laugh] I felt like I was getting tossed around with both of these books, which was super fun. So let's talk about heroes. We see a lot of like Captain America or Batman, all these adults who get to be heroes. So why was it important to you to show kids as heroes in your books? >> Lev Grossman: If you wanna go. >> Julian Randall: Yeah, absolutely. At the risk of sounding like I'm pandering, honestly, kids have always been my heroes. Even back when I was a kid and my mom's is here, so she would be able to tell you just stand next to the sign and line. It'll be cool. But it was also about the fact that, you know, at the moment that you're starting to think about the world that you are inheriting. You want to be someone who is powerful enough to shift it to better be gentle. And hold the people that you love, right? Like, you want to just be able to make things just a little bit better, but nobody ever necessarily listens to you. So realistically, kids have the best understanding of what power actually is and what it looks like, and it's who the power should be with. So, I wrote a book where the power is with the kids. >> Sasha Dowdy: Sweet. It only makes sense. How about you, Lev? Especially since you wrote a whole series of books for adults. >> Lev Grossman: That's true. When I was little, when I was a kid, I definitely. I didn't feel like a hero. And, oh, I was very conscious of the ways in which I didn't have much power. And I continued in that state until I was about 35 years old. When I realized actually it was okay to put yourself out there, and try to make things better around you. And when you do that, you take on huge amounts of responsibility in your life gets much more complicated and interested. Interesting. And I wish that I had realized one of that when I was about 11 years old. So I went back and I wrote about a kid who did, who figured that out. I was very good at figuring out reasons not to do things. I was so good at that. Even now, when I have children, my children say, you know, "Let's go. Let's save, let's save the animals. And I say, "Okay." And they say, "We're going to do a lemonade stand, and we're going to make money, and then we're going to give it to the people who save animals for a living. That's what we're going to do. And then we're going to save the animals." And I was like, "But it's COVID. And look, it's like 63. No one's going to want lemonade out there. And I have to go to get lemons. And, you know, lemonade is a lot of sugar in that." So, and so I was... I still am so good thinking of reasons not to do things. Kids are not so good at that. They just go out and do things and I really admire them for it. >> Sasha Dowdy: I do too, actually. That's a really good way of putting it. Kids are brave, you guys. You have all the time in the world to do the things you want. So these authors are here to give you that power. So, Lev, you mentioned that you didn't see yourself as a hero, so I wanted to know when did you first see yourself as a hero or even a person who could do things on their own? Start taking control. >> Lev Grossman: I mentioned... I mentioned when I turned 35. >> Sasha Dowdy: Great. >> Lev Grossman: It was really finding myself. This seems like a sort of glib thing to say, but it's actually true. I'll sound like a grown up who's lying, but I'm actually telling the truth. It was when I figured out that I could be a writer, that I really started to feel powerful. You read so many stories about people, kids who are discovering that they have a secret gift in themselves, and a secret power in themselves. Harry Potter discovers that he is a wizard. He didn't know that. And I managed to make it through the age of about 35, really believing that either that was just a fairy tale and not true, or it was like a metaphor for something. And I didn't really understand. It's not a metaphor. You do have gifts inside yourself and power, the power to do things you never believe that you could do. And one day you will discover what that power is. And I did. And you will. And that's when I felt like a hero for the first time. And it won't take you 35 years. You'll do it, like, really soon. >> Sasha Dowdy: Good. How about you, Julian? When did you see yourself as a hero? >> Julian Randall: So I thought that I was the protagonist of life for like 12 years. So ultimately, like, you know, a big author energy. Absolutely. Yeah. So I thought that I was the protagonist of life for like 12 years, and I just hadn't necessarily discovered where my power ups were. And then I read "The Golden Compass" by Philip Pullman, and that was one of the biggest, one of the biggest shifts for me in terms of thinking about, okay. In the book, in like, in "The Golden Compass", like Lyra finds that she has the result of thousands and thousands of tiny factors that have made her into the person that she is. And that made me think because I was 12 and I was like, "Okay, well, I guess I am the culmination of all of these things that have happened to me. So what if I could also happen to things?" So I started trying to think of ways to make stories about kids who were like me, and had powers that were sourced from things that were important to me. Because it's lovely to be able to save the city. But sometimes you just want to be able to save your neighborhood. Sometimes you just want to be able to save your abuela. >> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah, absolutely. The power comes in all kinds of shapes and sizes. Do you want to add something? I really admire your books because not only do you give kids that power to be heroes, you also talk about the environment and get them to care. And you talk about history that a lot of kids may not know about. So what made you want to write about it, and how did you make it so easy for kids to understand these things? Maybe we can start with history. >> Julian Randall: Yes. That sounds great. As far as the environment is concerned, I think that was actually really like one of the first things about Pilar that like unlocked. Because, at first, the first thing that comes in is she just is a character who walks into my head, says, "I'm Pilar Ramirez, I'll be taking it from here." And she's been dancing on my last nerve ever since, right? So I started putting together these sample chapters. She gets to Zafar and I see all of the sand is like bleached white, and that's the way that I see it in my head. But it feels like something is wrong. Like it wasn't always this way. And so in Zafar, the land used to be covered with this sentient black sand that contains all Dominican mythos and memory. Everything that has ever happened to our entire diaspora is contained inside of here. Right. But when El Cuco made his deal with Trujillo, it started to bleach the island, and it started to turn the sand. And so Pilar understands what it is to be from a place that used to love you, and used to know how to love you, and specifically used to know how to love the black of you, which is something that we struggle so much within Dominican culture, right? But now the land is starting to forget. And we see that all over the place. We see it in Jackson, Mississippi, right now with the water shortage. We see it in Pakistan where there is this flood that has wiped out thousands and thousands of homes. And this is the world that we're inheriting, but also the environment that we can work in concert with can allow us to be more powerful. It can allow us to be heroes, as I want it, to make a collaborative magic that was inextricably tied to both blackness and what it means to take care of the land. >> Sasha Dowdy: That's amazing. i did not think about that metaphor. That's a really good one. What about you, Lev, why did you want to write so intimately about the environment? >> Lev Grossman: I didn't want to. I didn't want to. I wanted to write about talking animals because I really like them. I always loved stories that had talking animals in them. I always loved the Narnia books. I always loved books like "James the Giant Peach". I always felt more comfortable writing from the point of view of an animal than a human being. I don't know what that says about me. And I started to write this story about a girl who finds herself the conductor of this train. And the passengers are... passengers are... Passengers on the train are animals. But when the animals began to speak, something interesting happened. Because those books that I mentioned, the Narnia books and Roald Dahl and stuff like that, that's where books were. They were written 60, 70, 80 years ago. And a lot has changed in our relationship with animals, and the whole natural world since then. And everybody knows this. They know it, or at least they can feel it. And so the conversation that takes place, when you talk to a magical talking animal, it's not the same conversation it used to be when you, when the Pevensey went to Narnia and they met Mr. and Mrs. Beaver, Mr. and Mrs. Beaver were so psyched because the humans are here. And they're going to save the world. Well, when the animals show up... When the humans show up and the animals start talking, humans have got a lot of explaining to do because they are not necessarily here to save the world. They are in fact, the people who have messed up the world. And it's a very complicated thing to try to understand. Grownups struggle with it just as much as kids do. Fortunately, it's the kids this problem much more than the grownup's problem at this point. We all struggle with it. And it relates to being a hero. Because when up to the point where Kate, who's the hero of "The Silver Arrow" and "The Golden Swift" starts talking to the animals, she's fairly confident that she is the hero of this story that she is in. And something that she discovers when she begins to talk to the animals is that she's not the hero. She's the villain. And where does she go from there? It's complicated. >> Sasha Dowdy: Yes. And I really like the character of Kate because you let her fail. And I love to Pilar because she, you allow her to fail and the things around them. So we are taught to make mistakes. And then you get back up and you can do it again, but your characters make permanent choices. So how did you allow your kids to make such huge mistakes? Because the kids are like your, you birthed them from your brain. And I don't know, that seems like a really, really brave thing to do to analyze that responsibility. >> Lev Grossman: It's a funny thing to say for somebody who writes fantasy novels and about novels about magic. But I'm very interested in reality. Reality is of great concern to me, even though I really like stories about people who can do magic. And one of the great rules when you're writing a book. For me, when I'm writing a book that has magic in it, is that magic the very most important and difficult problems and urgent problems magic can't solve those ones. Magic can solve a lot of stuff, but not the big ones. And so you can't wave a wand and make climate change, or the damage that human beings have done to the environment go away. Which is challenging because when you get to the end of the book, the problem, that problem is not solved. And it's a challenging thing to write about it. It is a challenging thing to read about. But one thing that I've learned from being a parent, and being around a lot of kids is that kids are very good at knowing when you're lying. And for the book to end with nature fixed and everything. Okay, That would have been a lie. >> Sasha Dowdy: Kids want that honesty and they can handle it. >> Lev Grossman: That's the other thing. They can handle so much more than they're given credit for. >> Sasha Dowdy: Absolutely. How about you, Julian? Can you tell us about that? >> Julian Randall: I started sweating for a second 'cause you're stepping off. The thing I was going to say which is for me, like it was also about that it is partially about magic, not being able to solve the larger problems, like you were saying. It is also about just straight up respect for your readers, right? Like young people, we write lots of books that promise them that everything is going to be okay. In fact, not only is everything going to be okay, everything's going to be great. Everything's going to be wonderful. And when bad things happen to kids in all kinds of, in kinds of, in all kinds of stories, it just kind of goes away or we don't necessarily talk about it again. And I don't. That was not my experience of being a kid. That was that been my experience of being alive. So why would we structure a story in that way, when we know that kids also live with the consequences not only of their actions but of ours? So realistically, like Pilar Ramirez ends up being like this intergenerational story about like, yes, the Trujillo Alto happens in the 1930s, ends in the 1960s. Right. But this is still something that then moves a whole generation of folks over to the Americas. And then a third generation, a third culture kids like me, like Pilar, who have all of these questions about this place that we came from, that we can't go back to, or that we can't reach, or this family member that we can't see anymore. And all of those things are lasting consequences that kids are curious about and that also impact the choices that they make about their lives. So ultimately, I just wanted to respect y'all that y'all were able to keep track of this. >> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah, absolutely. So when I read a book about the environment or just I'm faced with it out in the world, maybe I'll donate something. And then I'm like, "Great," but you didn't solve the problem. How do you keep your characters caring about this thing that's not going to be solved anytime soon? Jualian, if you want to go first. How do you keep caring? And it doesn't even have to be about characters. Just in general. >> Julian Randall: Yeah, I think that like the process, somebody said this on Twitter and I'll be forever upset that I didn't write down who it was who said it, because I cite this quote all the time. But they were talking about the real distinction between like adult lit versus like Y.A. versus middle grade is like access to hope, right? Is that when you're an adult, it becomes kind of like not cool to have like hope about, hope about a situation. And I think that I have tried to allow my books to be a kind of optimism in offering it to young people and saying, I want to be honest with you, that I believe things are wrong. And I also believe in your power to continue the work of trying to make it right, because I don't think that there's necessarily an alternative that leads to a world I want to live in. So I write books because I believe in the power of young people's imaginations. >> Sasha Dowdy: And it is an incredible thing. How about you, Lev? >> Lev Grossman: I guess I'll just add that it's very important for me when I write about animals to try to make them think and talk the way animals would. Not like somebody wearing an animal suit is really a person, but actually coming from that place than animals do. And you know, one thing about that about animals is they... animals never give up. They... they never give up. They don't despair. They don't sit around in a miasma of shame and guilt and self-reproach. They solve problems and they look forward. And very often as a human living in this world, which has been compromised in the way that our world has been, it's very easy for me to descend into a miasma and think, oh, it's so terrible what we've done, and so on and so forth. Animals don't care about that. They don't care if we feel guilty or not. No, it doesn't. It doesn't make any difference to them. They are into look, you can look on YouTube sometime and there's a great video of a rat trying to drag a piece of pizza up a flight of stairs. It's amazing. It goes on for 20 minutes. And finally, the rat gets that piece of pizza to the top of the stairs. And it's just you look at it and you think a human would never, ever have kept going. >> Sasha Dowdy: Only maybe an exceptional one. But animals will just keep going. >> Lev Grossman: Yeah. And what I hope is that, is that, is that... Kate and all of us can learn from animals in that respect because they don't give up and we can't. >> Sasha Dowdy: That's true. Put yourselves in the brains of the animals. And we while we care and consider where we came from and all these big things. Sometimes you get stuck and you don't know where to go next. And writers especially might get stuck. You don't know what to write next. So how do you deal with that? We all get stuck. Are we stuck now? [Panelists laugh] >> Julian Randall: I'm trying to figure out. I know what I want to say. I'm trying to figure out how I structure it. >> Sasha Dowdy: Okay. Can we go to you first? >> Lev Grossman: Usually when I get stuck, I sit down and I grit my teeth, and I try even harder and I stare even harder at my computer screen. And I remain in that posture for the next 8 hours. And then I go to bed and I start the next day. >> Sasha Dowdy: Wow. Okay. >> Lev Grossman: it's getting unstuck. I find very hard. And the only thing I've ever found that is helpful is meditation, which I only started doing a few years ago. Meditating is really good. Usually when I get stuck, I'm already in such a bad mood that I can't even meditate and it's too late. But that is what I ought to do when I want to get unstuck is just sit and try to calm down and remember how to focus my attention. >> Sasha Dowdy: That's great. Good advice. >> Julian Randall: Word up. I love that. I'm thinking about this conversation that Marlon James had with Daniel Jose Older for the, I think the fiction nonfiction podcast, where he said, like, your plot problems aren't plot... Thank you. Your plot problems, problems aren't plot problems. Your plot problems are character problems, like nine times out of ten. And so if I feel stuck, it's often because I am either without a character to follow, or one of the characters that I have already made is not doing the thing that they actually want to be doing. They're doing anything that I want them to be doing. So to give like an example, right. Like Pilar is the first part of a two-part series. The second one is called "Pilar Ramirez and The Curse of San Zenon". And it follows Pilar's first journey to the island. And there's a storm that only she can see, right? And so as it was going, I was like, "Okay, this is good. This is good." But something wasn't right. Something wasn't clicking. And I figured out that it was because in the original version of the book, the antagonist was supposed to die. And I realized that the reason the antagonist was dying was because that was what I'd been taught. That was what I came up with. Like by and large in Kid Media when I was growing up, if there was a villain, the villain died and then you maybe saw them in the sequel, but probably not because the contrast go up. But I didn't want that. I wanted imagining of like, what could it be to be more restorative in this? So I had to sit and like kind of do a similar kind of meditation where I was. I waited for the antagonist to come to my head and say, "Okay, I'm listening. Please tell me why are you like this? Why have you made this choice?" >> Sasha Dowdy: I feel like that's a question that applies to animals too. And that thing, the consistency and the way they'll just keep pushing. It's a good thing to open your mind to. So what I like about these books is that they have these huge worldwide problems to solve that they can't solve alone. They have to keep going. They're sequels. The story continues. But at the same time, they're still kids. Like Kate is seeing her classmate getting bullied and is like, "What do I do?" Or Pilar is dealing with her sister, who is a bit annoying and being a big sister. And so talk about that. The balance of real kid problems and these like heroic deeds that they do. >> Lev Grossman: It's funny. In early on in the "The Golden Swift", Kate has an experience which I also had which was that she auditioned for a part in the musical "Anything Goes". That was the school musical that year and she really wanted to get a lead, like really wanted it. And she didn't get a lead because she's really bad at singing and almost worse than that, it's not only she did not get it, but she did get put in the chorus and she was really upset and angry about it. But she couldn't quit because that would make her seem like a sore loser, which she was a sore loser, but she didn't want to seem like a sore loser to everybody. This happened to me in seventh grade. It also happened in eighth grade, ninth grade, 10th grade and 11th grade. I finally got a good part in the 12th-grade show because of pity. [all laugh] >> Sasha Dowdy: Never give up. >> Lev Grossman: That's right. Never give up. I got that piece of pizza to the top of the stairs. [all laugh] And the funny thing was that that hurt. It hurt as much as the, as the climate of the earth being destroyed. They hurt the same amount. It's weird that that should, it should hurt much more that the Earth is getting destroyed. But badly enough they hurt the same amount. And I wanted to be honest and kind of reflect that in "The Golden Swift" that you know, emotionally, just from a purely emotional point of view, they weigh the same, even though they're not the same. >> Sasha Dowdy: Sometimes kids are made guilty because they don't want to finish their broccoli. Well, there's kids who don't have broccoli somewhere out in the world, but you can't care the same way about the things that are right in front of you. So that's why we got to keep trying, right? >> Julian Randall: Word. Yeah. I think in so far as like kid problems versus world problems, I often find that my... the kid problems that come up in my work are really just world problems that have kind of trickled down at a certain level. You know, we have the nature of how Pilar's relationship with her abuela, her relationship with her mommy, her relationship with Lorena. All of it runs around this central family trauma, right, of how Natasha disappeared. So there's that. Right. And at the less Zafa focused level, she is from the same neighborhood in Chicago that I am from, which is now unrecognizable, gentrified. Right. And the way that she understands this is that her best friend moved away. And when you're a kid, like, I don't know about you, but I had one, maybe I had two best friends. And if one of them moved away, which she did, I was devastated. And as a result of that, I had a lot of free time to just kind of like pour into these little side projects and whatnot. And so Pilar is dealing with a third kid problem, right, of like, I have this talent and this story to tell, but I don't necessarily have a means by which I'm going to do it or I don't know how to do it. So she idolizes this director who I made up Mira Paredes, who she watches all of her YouTube channels, and that's what ultimately gets her to think like, oh, word, I could make a documentary about this question, that I've had my entire life that affects my whole family. And then she gets sucked through a blank piece of paper and she's like, "Well, this is not what I was expecting." >> Sasha Dowdy: I did not sign up for this. >> Julian Randall: Not even a little bit. >> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah, we don't get to sign up to be heroes, really. So to deal with the problems you came in with and this new world-saving stuff. >> Julian Randall: Yeah, it'sthat Gandalf quote, right? "So do all who lived to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us". >> Sasha Dowdy: It's a good quote. Remember, everyone, this is recorded so you can come back and watch this for the wisdom flying around on the stage right now. I am pretty sure that this is time for Q and A. I'm going to check my watch. Yes. So if you have a question, please come up to the mic, and take, we're going to take turns, we're going to go that way and then that way, etc., until we run out of time. So you look like you're ready. Go ahead. >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: My question is, how long do these books take? >> Lev Grossman: How long did it take to write them or how long? >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: How long did it take to write them? >> Lev Grossman: I'll tell you, but the answer may depress you. It takes me about two... It took me about two years to write "Silver Arrow". Maybe a year and a half to write "The Golden Swift", because I already thought of some of the characters. I write slowly. It took me a long time. >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Okay, thanks. >> Julian Randall: Mine took a year. Also, I love your shirt. [panelists laugh] >> Sasha Dowdy: Go ahead. On my right side. >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Is there going to be a book after "The Golden Swift"? >> Lev Grossman: You know. I had dinner with my sister the other day, and my sister is older than me and she asked me that same question. And then she said, "I already thought of a title. You have the "Silver Arrow" and "The Golden Swift". Why don't you call it The Lead Balloon? [audience laughing] My sister is 56 years old. Ladies and gentlemen, if you think that your siblings might one day grow up and become more mature, they never will. They will never change. There will be another book. I've got it all figured out in my head, but I haven't written it down yet. >> Sasha Dowdy: Thank you. Go ahead. >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Like. Is it hard to write the books or is it easy to write the books? >> Julian Randall: It varies honestly, like some scenes are really difficult to write, and then some scenes I'm just like, "Oh my gosh, this is going so quickly. I am the greatest writer of all time." [all laugh] I could write 12 of these this year. >> Lev Grossman: It's true. It's true. Some bits are easy and some bits are really hard. There's a passage in one of my books for adults that everybody who reads it comes to me and says, "I love that one passage. That was the best part of the book." And I think back about how did I do that? That was the one bit where I became a great writer for like a day. What happened? It's just an ordinary... I didn't feel it wasn't any different from any other day. I don't know why some bits are hard and some are easy. It's one of the mysteries of being a writer. >> Sasha Dowdy: But encountering a bad day means there's going to be a good day sometime in the future. >> Lev Grossman: Does it mean that? Hopefully. I never give up. >> Sasha Dowdy: We all have hope. All right. We have a question on this side. >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Did you have a job before you became an author? >> Lev Grossman: Such a good question. That's a good question. >> Julian Randall: Yeah, a wonderful question. Yeah. I worked in... so I worked in publishing. And before that I was in grad school. But yeah, so I made books for different readers, and then I signed the contract to write this. And then I was like, "I would like to do this more." >> Lev Grossman: I had so many jobs before I became a writer, and in fact, I did a lot of my writing while I had another job, which is this is another depressing but true fact that I will tell you, if you're interested in being a writer, probably you will have two jobs at the same time for much of your career. You will be working during the day and then writing secretly during the night. You have a double life like a spy. It's kind of exciting, but it's challenging. For a while I had many jobs and I didn't, even though I thought of myself as a professional writer, I had a job until six years ago when I was 46 years old. So, short answer. Yes, I did have a job. >> Sasha Dowdy: Several. >> Lev Grossman: Several. >> Sasha Dowdy: What was the coolest? >> Lev Grossman: I was a reporter for a magazine and that was such a good job. I was so lucky to get that job. >> Sasha Dowdy: Nice. Journalism, everybody. All right. Go ahead. >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: How did you remember the Gandalf quote? [all laugh] >> Sasha Dowdy: Great question. >> Julian Randall: Seeing that movie way too many times. But also like eidetic memory. >> Lev Grossman: I had a quote that I wanted to say during this panel, and I'm just going to say it out of context because I memorized it for this panel. And it's an Ursula Le Guin quote. And it is, "Those who deny the existence of dragons are often eaten by them from within. It's the from within that tells you that it's Ursula. Anyway, there it is. >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: I've never read "The Golden Swift", but it looks like there's another person in it. Is that person opposing the protagonist or not? >> Lev Grossman: Oh, to tell you that, would be to tell you in some ways the ending of the book. But because it was a sequel, I wanted to introduce another kind of level of complexity to the book. And so I added a kind of co-hero to the book. So yes, and it's a complicated relationship that they have. I think frenemies would be a not an incorrect way to describe their relationship. >> Sasha Dowdy: Great. We only have a couple of minutes left, so let's do quick, bam, bam, bam kind of thing. >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: All right. So what made you think of the train system? Like, why did you make an invisible, secret train system other than like any other vehicles? >> Lev Grossman: It's a really good question. And I truly don't know the answer except to say that I have a deep love of trains. Trains have that... They don't... What do I want to say? They're super, super complicated, but they're not complicated like computers. They're not just little blocks of silicon that you look at and think, I don't know what's going on in there. I never will. They are fascinatingly huge, like dinosaur-sized things. But if you go through them and examine how they work, you can kind of figure it out. I love them. I love that about trains and I take, I take them whenever I can. >> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: What do you think is the... What do you think is the lasting effects of the books that you guys have written? >> Sasha Dowdy: Wow. Really good question. >> Julian Randall: Wonderful question. I hope that. [all laugh] >> Sasha Dowdy: We're stuck again. >> Julian Randall: A little bit. A little bit. I will get that place up there, though. I will get it up there. I think, for me, there are so many intergenerational curses that are like put forth by events like the Trujillo Alto, like the way that we're seeing climate change affect us. And I want kids to feel coming away from the book like you were always enough to break the curses that were foisted upon you. >> Sasha Dowdy: Fantastic. You are enough. >> Lev Grossman: It's such a good question. For me, it really has to do with that, that idea of keeping going. There's so much hand-wringing and self-blaming and blaming of others around this question of of what's happened to the climate and nature. It is innate of nothing. All that, all that there is is finding answers and there's nothing else. I hope people remember that. >> Sasha Dowdy: Wonderful. Thank you so much. We do have to stop right here, but the authors might answer your questions if you come up to the stage for a little bit. So let's give Lev Grossman and Julian Randall a big round of applause. Thank you for coming today. [audience clapping]