>> Jonathan Capehart: Welcome, everyone, to the Library of Congress National Book Festival, and this session with the author of Deaf Utopia, a memoir and a Love Letter to a Way of Life, Nyle DiMarco, who is joined by his interpreter, Gray Van Pelt. >> Nyle DiMarco: Hello, hello. Thank you so much for coming today. >> Jonathan Capehart: Nyle, I can't wait to have this conversation with you because your book truly is a love letter from its very first paragraphs, but it's also an education on a life so many don't know or didn't realize existed. My name is Jonathan Capehart, associate editor at The Washington Post, anchor of the Sunday Show with Jonathan Capehart on MSNBC and an analyst for PBS NewsHour. Well, thank you. [laughs] We will have a Q and A during the last 15 minutes or so of our conversation. So start thinking about what you want to ask right now. And don't forget that Nyle's book signing is from four until five. So, Nyle, real talk. From the opening pages, you open my eyes and fill the void of understanding. I didn't realize I had about being deaf and deaf culture. Was that your goal? >> Nyle DiMarco: Absolutely, absolutely. I think really, first and foremost, I want people, when they're reading my book who are full of questions to greet it with their curiosities. I want to, first of all, open people's minds to the fact that we have a culture and we have a community and that we have a language, but that our community is incredible. I mean, those really are the three main things. I think one of the biggest misconceptions out there is really that deaf people don't have a culture. And so I wanted to change that mindset first. I wanted to open people's eyes and really invite them to fall into the book. >> Jonathan Capehart: All right, and language and culture I want to get to in this conversation a little bit later, but talk about that title, “Deaf Utopia”. what were you trying to immediately convey to the reader? >> Nyle DiMarco: Well, it really starts with a bit of time. It took me months and months and months to figure out the title of the book. It's got to be the most difficult part about writing a book. I mean, deciding what's going to go on the front is a really big task. But I worked with a ghostwriter who's an incredible friend of mine, Bobby Siebert, and in the process of writing and thinking about what we wanted to convey, I realized that I wanted to add some sort of fun undertones, but also keep it a bit on the nose. Now, Utopia is one of my favorite words because it gives me an opportunity to play with juxtaposition. So many hearing people out there greet the term deaf with pity. They want to be sensitive to people's hardships. And so I wanted an audience that largely sees deafness as a negative, right, to also have a positive within that juxtaposition of “Deaf Utopia”. While we're often seen as being broken or handicapped or lacking hearing ability. This gave me an opportunity to reclaim that title, to make it positive, but also to make it mine. And Utopia always has a positive connotation, right? So putting that negative and a positive together, I think really bends the reader and I think really bends the mind of people who might see it on a shelf. I think it really piques curiosity. And with those two simple words, we came with a title that really reflects what it means to come from a fourth-generation deaf family. It reflects my childhood and my upbringing because it really was utopian. And I always try to use that in comparing my life with, say, a hearing person. You grew up with hearing people, right, with your parents. So being born to deaf parents is a deaf person. Our lives were exactly the same. I didn't have language barriers in the home, right? So it gave me a really great opportunity to frame it that way. >> Jonathan Capehart: One of the things and you got to this in the answer to that question, one of the things I love about your book is how you bring the reader into deaf culture. You give us its history and the evolution of how you communicate. Did you decide to write your book that way because deep down, you're a teacher. I mean, you were planning on becoming a teacher before the whole modeling thing happened. >> Nyle DiMarco: Absolutely I was -- I mean, by first, then, yes it was absolutely to teach math. But my life absolutely took a 180. I mean, but I'm still teaching. If you look at my career now, this is just a bigger classroom, right? So, yeah. And really, I think that in the process of figuring out sort of how I wanted to structure the writing and figuring out what my memoir would actually look like, I did a lot of reading of other memoirs. The biggest one that stuck out to me was Trevor Noah is Born a Crime, which highlights his experience growing up in apartheid. Now his ability to be able to pull the history of Africa through the apartheid and be able to weave that into stories of his parents and his grandparents as well as his own lived experience, was really touching to me and really inspiring to me. I wanted to structure , it that way, essentially to emulate a similar experience of deaf culture, of discrimination and oppression that my family had experienced and made a very large impact on who I am as somebody who is fourth generation in a deaf family. I wanted to tell history not only my experience, but I also wanted to honor my parents’ experience and my grandparents experience along with the larger community as a whole. And it just made for a really good story. >> Jonathan Capehart: Okay. I'm going to jump ahead. Since you talked about your parents and your grandparents, you mentioned before you are fourth generation deaf family, although now there are five generations because you now have I think it's a little nephew, right? >> Nyle DiMarco: Yes, >> Jonathan Capehart: The nephew is seven months old. >> Nyle DiMarco: Yes, yep seven months. His name is Brooklyn. And funny enough, actually, so if you remember from my own book, if any of you read it that I had talked about the experience of being in a labor room with my mom and having the doctor inform her essentially that I had failed the hearing test. And my mother was very excited. My dad coming from a hearing family, had a lot to really unpack with his own sad reaction to it. But the doctor was really confused as to why my family would be celebrating the fact that I was born deaf. But it shows what a huge change, right? I mean, I'm 33 years old, so I do have to sort of tell you my age. But my nephew, Brooklyn, when he was born, shows such a huge change because the doctor came in and informed the parents, Congratulations, your baby passed the hearing test and they said, does that mean that he's deaf? And they were like, wait, what? He passed the hearing test and they said, Yeah, that's not a failure. That's a pass, right? It just shows, I think, that doctors are becoming more culturally aware, right? They're starting to understand what deaf families want and what deaf families are able to do and really be. So I think it shows how much the mindset of hearing people have changed over the last few decades, let's hope. >> Jonathan Capehart: And I love that story in the book, because for me it was a learning experience, an educational experience to read about your parents’ reaction with the thumbs up and being very happy that you and your twin brother Niko, were both deaf. But also, the reaction of the doctor who you say frowned at your parents’ reaction after he delivered the news. And it stuck out at me not only because of what it taught me, but it stuck out to me because that scene seems to be as indelible as it is emblematic of how the deaf community is viewed. >> Nyle DiMarco: Absolutely, absolutely. I think the world is really built for hearing people. There's no denying that. But the perception is so often that deafness is a negative within a larger hearing society. And most of the time, it's not their fault. It's a lack of awareness, right. We need a lot more media attention and we need more positive framing of deaf people and our experiences. That's what I'm doing in TV and film. I mean, if you look at the history of TV and film, it is historically been negative and reflective of struggles, which is so reflective of what hearing people have often associated with us, but again media is the number one real driver of what people think and where people's mindsets are established certainly in marginalizing communities and that's what we're trying to shift. It's one of the biggest reasons really why I started working in the entertainment industry, because I feel that I can make so much more of an impact there. >> Jonathan Capehart: You write in the book, doctors often think of deafness as a problem that needs to be corrected instead of a natural difference. One beautiful dot among m ny on the brilliant spectrum of human diversity, one that was also the crux of a culture, language and community, a way of life. Now, in sharing the history and story of the deaf community, you aren't shy about pointing out heroes and the villains of deaf history. And I want to start with the villain. You say, “Was a treacherous man who espoused many ideas that deeply harmed my community. That man was Alexander Graham Bell.” What were those ideas? >> Nyle DiMarco: Well, it was, in fact, AGB, you know. In the school system, how people teach about Alexander Graham Bell is often that he was wonderful, He was an inventor, he was a provider and an innovator of the telephone. Wow, what a great man. But first of all, he actually stole the patent for that phone. He didn't even come up with it. Second of all, he was one of the biggest leaders in the eugenics movement, which worked against my community. So in seeing that, how he looked at deaf people and believe that they shouldn't be able to marry, I mean, he married a deaf person, but he believed that deaf people shouldn't be able to marry other deaf people. He wanted to prevent those marriages essentially to eradicate a community, right. He wanted to prevent the spread of deafness, and he didn't want anyone to procreate deaf babies. He was a leader that banned the use of sign language around the world and worked at a conference in Milan in 1880, essentially to invite hearing educators to take over the deaf education system in a very paternalistic way and say, we're not going to teach sign language anymore. And that caused a very real decline in the use of our language. And it was a very sad era for deaf people and for deaf education. For 100 years we were teaching in deaf schools and banning sign language. And it prevented people from being able to achieve real career goals. Deaf people were fired from their jobs. They weren't able to go out and start their own businesses because it changed the view of deaf people and those schools started shrinking. And that's all thanks to Alexander Graham Bell. And those thoughts are still very pervasive in so much of the structure of education and with how society really sees us. he was behind killing a lot of bills that were brought up at a state level, essentially to provide, more language access. We now work to provide more language access at a state level and providing that legislature, the biggest villain is the Alexander Graham Bell organization. They're actually against that and providing baby’s options essentially by which to use. I mean, you're looking at hundreds of years of oppression and we've really sort of twisted that over history. And I want to bring a much better-- it's a very deep conversation, I will be honest with you. But I would like to see a bigger improvement away from him. >> Jonathan Capehart: Well, this is interesting. It's 100 years of oppression, but the impact of Alexander Graham Bell was still being felt by you when you were starting to go to school in the nineties. Which brings me to the hero, the undisputed hero of Deaf Utopia, and your personal hero is here with us this afternoon. Your mother Donna DiMarco. Please stand up, Mrs. DiMarco. [applause] So, Nyle’s mother is here. Nyle, why is she a hero? And this gives you an opportunity to talk about the incredible work your mom ,did as a as a loving parent to turn the tide of all the things you just talked about that Alexander Graham Bell did. >> Nyle DiMarco: Absolutely. I think that's one of the biggest advantages for me of coming from a generationally deaf family. My mother, her parents, my grandparents are deaf, right. So you know my mom, myself and her parents all have the experience of going to a deaf school. My grandparents were educated in an era where sign language was banned, which had very real effects, but they were often physically beaten in school for using it, right. They had a very hard time in school and were forced to really assimilate in an oral environment that wasn't built for them to thrive. My mother had seen sort of what had happened from that and the repercussions. And my mom experienced that all the way until she got to high school when she was finally allowed to use sign language on campus. So it showed a shift over time that I think my mom was able to see, right. And being from a deaf family, she was able to see the change and see how much she could make for the next generation. I think that really ignited a fire in her for her own deaf kids, but not just for her own family, but for kids nationwide, which she's been working to advocate for our entire lives. And she advocated for our access to an incredible link, to an incredible education, right, all the way from kindergarten. I remember when I first got into kindergarten, my classmates couldn't sign well, I was fluent. My teacher couldn't sign as well as I could and often was lost when I would try to answer a question or ask a question, I wasn't really able to participate because I couldn't understand them that well and they couldn't really understand me. Any time that I would offer a solution to something on the board, they'd say, now you're way too fast for me. Slow down. What is that? What, what, what? And it was a huge waste of my time, right? And I mean, if you count all those days that I spent in a school not learning, you really start to see the effects. And my mom saw that and she worked as a proponent of change to force the school board to change things and to provide ASL and to create an improved education system. it wasn't just that, but my school also required the use of hearing aids when I was a kid. Going into school, we weren't allowed to participate in lessons or lecture without hearing aids, which is really odd if you consider that I went to a deaf school, right. I imagine that the view at the time was in order to learn, you have to be able to hear at a deaf school. That's a very dangerous idea that we're talking about. My mom worked tirelessly to advocate for that to change. And so much of the work that I was able to watch her do is what I'm working to emulate every day. >> Jonathan Capehart: Okay. Because you brought up hearing aids, I want to bring up ignorant question number one from the hearing world that I have here, and that is why-- >> Nyle DiMarco: No dumb questions. I'm here for it. >> Jonathan Capehart: And this I kept thinking about this. Why were you forced to wear hearing aids if you're deaf? What's the purpose? What is the point? >> Nyle DiMarco: Right, right. [laughs] I mean, it's wild. But in general, the view from the hearing community or the hearing world is that deaf people need to be fixed, right, and that we need to assimilate that we need to be like hearing people, that we need to belong in hearing culture. So in going into the school, essentially, they were saying your practice starts now for you to learn how to be a hearing person and work in this society, right, and to be able to understand these words that for me are almost impossible, right. They wanted me to be able to speak like them, which again, is almost impossible. I think so much of it is really brainwashing and very detrimental to a child's development. at the end of the day, you're looking at my own education being taken away from me. I'm being deprived of education and from language. That has very real long-term effects on my ability to succeed later in life. And I think honestly, that's the biggest reason why they want us to assimilate. >> Jonathan Capehart: Now, you consider yourself bilingual English, but also ASL. And I want you to talk about why folks spend so much time trying to prevent American Sign language from even being used in the classroom? >> Nyle DiMarco: Right. I mean, again, that's the thing I still don't get. I still don't get it. Like, what's wrong with it? People really value sound. Certainly, it’s a larger currency, I think, the ability to hear sound and the ability to speak I think is valued with higher currency than the ability to sign, which is funny in my own experience. I don't get it. I don't understand why hearing people are so radically against ASL when it's such an incredible language and has so many benefits. But yeah, I mean, I wish I had a better answer, but I just don't get it. I think they're just kind of clueless. It's sheer cluelessness, I guess. >> Jonathan Capehart: So then if you then-- for those in the hearing world, once you once you wrap your mind around the fact that American Sign language is a language, then you are open to understanding. >> Nyle DiMarco: Right, absolutely. And that's one thing that I will add. Now, I'll tell you a story. I remember I had an interview with the big Larry King, right. And Larry King has interviewed and met so many people from so many different walks of life from all corners of the world, right. But I remember at one point when we were having a conversation, I had to double check him for a second because he said ASL is not a language. Now, this was on an interview. They did cut this out, lucky for them. But I said, wait, what do you mean it's not a language? And he said, well, it's gesture. It's just gesture. Like, what you're doing is a system of gestures. It's not actually a language. And I said, wait, so you think this entire 25 minutes of our conversation I've been miming, right? And the interpreter is just like guessing at it. He's like, yeah, pretty much. I was like, what? So I tried to educate him as ASL is absolutely a language. It is a formally recognised language in the US. And I think, you know, Larry King of all people, right, really reflects on majority of what Americans see and think, right? They see ASL and they believe that it's a system of gestures in order for us to sort of get by in communication. But in fact, our language has a structure, it has its own complexities and its rules and syntax and grammar. So I think we just need a lot more education on the topic. >> Jonathan Capehart: But it also has its own dialects. And you write in your book “Deaf Utopia”, that-- >> Nyle DiMarco: That's the best part. >> Jonathan Capehart: That you can tell where someone is from by how they sign. >> Nyle DiMarco: Yes, yeah, absolutely. So sign the sign for a park, for example, right. There's a few versions in New York. It's not like a car park, right? It's not to park your car, but like a park that you would go and play. And for New York it's this, right? It's up here on the forehead. But let's say in Texas, right, for park, they sign park like this, right. So in New York, it's different than obviously in Texas. So if somebody signs park, I'm like, you're from Texas, right? And they're like, yeah, how do you know? I'm like, because that's the sign that you choose, right? If you see enough dialects in enough regions, you can immediately tell if they put on their forehead. I'm like, hey, it's a New Yorker. It's kind of interesting that way, right. People from New York typically sign much faster. [laughs] >> Jonathan Capehart: Shocker. >> Nyle DiMarco: Yeah, shocker. Yeah, we signed much faster. people from the Midwest in Ohio, I wouldn't say that they signed fast, but it's a comfortable pace, right, It's not so rapid, but I'm from the city, so I sign a little faster. >> Jonathan Capehart: And then what about sign language from other countries? You then have to learn a new-- you do; You have to learn a whole new language, let's say if you go to, say, Sweden. >> Nyle Dimacro: Right, right. Completely different. Especially Sweden, they are so different. Their ABCs almost don't even make sense. It bends my mind, but I love it. I can finger spell in the Swedish ABCs fluently, which is nice. I have a lot of friends in Sweden, which is really nice. But we have over 300 different sign languages globally. For example, in the UK people speak English. We also speak English, but our sign language is completely different. British sign language in and of itself is a totally different animal than what ours is, but a lot of our ASL is actually borrowed from France, is a totally different animal than what ours is, but a lot of our ASL is actually borrowed from France, from LSF, and so we have a mix of that. We have a mix of various signs like Martha's Vineyard Sign Language. Back years ago, on the Island they were using-- even the hearing people there had acquired sign language and they had developed sort of their own community with home signs, which is really great if you look it up, it's a very fascinating story. But it's very interesting and also kind of beautiful. Sometimes, America will borrow another country sign because it makes a little bit more sense and we'll play it that way. >> Jonathan Capehart: But you also write about the acronym is BASL, Black American Sign Language. Do I have that right? >> Nyle Dimacro: Yes, yes. >> Jonathan Capehart: And you note the importance of Black American Sign Language in the overall scheme of American sign language. >> Nyle Dimacro: Definitely definitely. So BASL is pretty much ASL, but it's again with Milan, 1880, like I mentioned before, the educational conference in the banning of American sign language. In the United States, we weren't allowed to sign anymore, but the black community had their own schools, right? This is during segregation, and so they were still practicing the ASL, they were still developing signs and were evolving their own language while white deaf people had lost so much of our language because our schools were being shut down and oralism was heavily pushed in the classroom. And so ASL did have its come back, don't get me wrong, but BASL was still there and was still growing and thriving and really gave a saving grace to ASL. It's one of the biggest things that I’m thankful for from the black community is really their ability to provide us with the language. And there's so many interesting things that come from the ASL and so much of it is born generationally the way that I’m the fourth generation of my family, and we have our own signs. It’s the same with BASL. It survive generations and I would say I understand, I don't know, maybe like half of it, but it's a really incredible language. >> Jonathan Capehart: You write in the book that your grandfather had his own made up sign language from Italy within the family so when friends would come over, I guess at dinner and your grandfather would sign, your friends would whisper to you, which is signing under the table. What did he say? >> Nyle Dimacro: Exactly, exactly. It's interesting, actually, because my grandfather was born in New York, but my great grandparents had emigrated from Italy and they didn't speak English well at all, but could speak Italian. And so my grandfather being born deaf and having a hearing family who didn't know ASL, they ended up with this mix of some Italian gestures, some Italian sign, home sign that they had developed and it eventually was just passed through my bloodline and my family. So a lot of times, people don't understand my grandpa and they're like, what is he talking about? Like how he uses his elbow instead of his palm, or he'll use an Italian gesture, which means like, perfect or beautiful, and my friends would be like, I’ve never seen this before. It's kind of fun. >> Jonathan Capehart: I want to sort of fast forward a bit in your memoir. You write early in the book, and I quote, “Any time I meet someone new, I know the first fact that registers in their heads is that I’m deaf.” Really? [laughter] Because, I mean, let's just come on, let's be serious. Everyone's laughing because they know what I’m getting at. Come on, he’s a handsome guy. [laughter] And I bring that up because that runs counter to how you got involved with America’s Next Top Model. I remember in an interview you did, I can't remember who you told this to, but you said in this interview that America’s Next Top Model sent you a message on Instagram that basically said, we think you're hot, we want you to try out and you thought it was a scam, but they kept sliding into your DMs. >> Nyle Dimacro: Right, right, yeah. So now keep in mind, at that time, Instagram was really new. I mean, it was just really rolling out the DM features so to get a DM, I was like, this is a scam for sure. But they did. They were persistent. They reached out a few times they said, hey, we think you have a really good look. Why don't you try out for the show? And I was like, hey, I’m deaf. I’m not really sure if your TV show is really prepared for something like that. And the casting director said, oh, I didn't realize that. But you should go ahead and just audition anyway and see what happens. So at the time, I had just made a career change, right? I decided I wasn't going to teach math anymore and what I wanted to do was actually work in the PR department of Gallaudet University. I wanted to work to pull deaf kids from all over the world who didn't have the same experience that I did and have the same access, whether that was because of international barriers or because of language barriers or just experience with the community, I wanted to bring them to Gallaudet and really help them find their identity and give them a place where they could thrive and where they could grow and find success. So having just made that big career change, when America’s Next Top Model reached out to me, I was starting this job. I was like, oh, I mean, I thought I would give it a shot. It was a TV show, plus it was reality TV. And all they want is for you to get on there and cause some drama. That's the whole point. But I thought okay, I’ll give it a shot and I auditioned and I thought, I probably wouldn't get through the process. But two weeks later, they said, Nyle, pack your bags. You're coming to L.A. We're going to fly you out. You're going to stay here for a month. Are you ready to go? And I was like okay. And then which is funny because at the same time, by happenstance, another TV opportunity reached out. It was Switched At Birth and they said, hey, you should come shoot with us and I thought, maybe this is fate. maybe I should give this a shot and then I talked to my mom about it, obviously. And my mom said, go you're young. Why not, go to California. You can always go back if it doesn't work out. And I said, okay. So after America’s Next Top Model, I won. >> Jonathan Capehart: But I mean, yadda a yadda. I won. [laughter] >> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah, I mean honestly, it was hell, I will tell you. America’s Next Top Model was absolute hell. I won and to be honest with you, I didn't think that I was going to win. I didn't think that I was going to win because I thought from a producer's perspective having a deaf person on the show is a win in and of itself. They did it, they get their TV gold star and they get really great ratings. So I just thought that a win wasn't actually possible but winning the whole thing was a huge shock to me. And then after that, I thought I would just go back and I would work in the recruiting department. I didn't really realize how big the show was because I never watched it before I was on it. So my platform exploded and it just grew overnight. And I realized there was no turning around. It was one way forward. I was going to have to find a way and be creative and shift and adapt myself within a larger industry that I didn't know much about at the time. And the entertainment industry I will tell you, is cutthroat. So, I mean, I’m incredibly grateful for America’s Next Top Model and the entire experience. >> Jonathan Capehart: You also won dancing with this-- you won America’s Next Top Model in 2015. Then you went on to win dancing with the stars in 2016. but I want to hang on to America’s Next Top Model because and this is why I brought up Sweden. And for those of you who have not read the book, I’m not going to tell you where you'll find it, but it's in there. At the time that the episodes of America’s Next Top Model were finally running, you had already done a backpacking trip in Europe you were in Sweden at one point so far, so good, I got this right. >> Nyle Dimacro: Yes. >> Jonathan Capehart: Then, you're with all these folks and you thought that Sweden was the country that had sort of an open culture no clothing. And so you ask around and everyone's like, no, no, no, that's Finland. [applause] But you're like, hey, I’m going to do it anyway. So you take off your swimsuit. You're in the sun, everyone else joins in. The cops come and bust everything up, but what ended up happening and this was fascinating, the deaf community is so small and I believe Facebook Messenger was just getting going, that anywhere you traveled in the world, people would see it. Because someone put on Facebook Messenger, I guess, a video or a picture and everywhere you went in the world, people would say, oh, you're the American who got naked in Sweden. >> Nyle Dimacro: That is true. >> Jonathan Capehart: And this was happening as new episodes of America’s Next Top Model were happening, so you were dealing with it at the time, and now, you're getting this level of fame and now everybody is seeing this. Talk about Sweden. [laughter] >> Nyle Dimacro: Good God. In Sweden, being in Sweden, it was my first time going to Europe and I was a solo backpacker for three months, so I was excited. I had some friends from Gallaudet University who I was going to be there visiting. So we were drinking and having a great time at my friend's house and in the backyard, they have their own sauna, which is pretty typical. And so we went in and we were sitting and drinking. And I said, why don't we have clothes on? This is Sweden. We should be naked and I take my clothes off. And they were like, that's not this country. And I’m like, my bad but what if we did? I mean, we all went to college together, like, let's do it let's have a good time and have some fun. And everyone was like, yeah, okay. So we ended up stripping in the sauna, and running around and drinking and swimming and the cops did come. And the next door neighbors had called, and they said you were being too loud. And mind you, we were in rural Sweden. This is a farm the house is over here-- the other house is like without-- you can hardly see it, but they're apparently within earshot. So we're all standing there naked with these cops and they've got the flashlights out and it's a whole dramatic thing. And we were like, oh we put our clothes back on, and try to keep it quiet. But I had traveled essentially for three full months, sort of in a circle. And at the end of the trip, they had-- the deaf Olympics were happening. It's essentially like the Olympics, but it's our own version. And everyone was like, I know you. You're the American guy ,that I know from Facebook who got naked in Sweden. So that's the widely known fact. I’m Nyle DiMarco, .and I’m also the American naked guy in Sweden and still hasn't died. The deaf community has so many incredible positives. But if there's one negative, it's that rumor spread really quick. Honestly, faster than wildfire. >> Jonathan Capehart: And as you write in the book, the Facebook Messenger has been an aid, if you will, to the deaf community in terms of communicating. So as Twitter, but I just put that out there. In that chapter where you talk-- I’m sorry, go ahead. >> Nyle DiMarco: Oh, yeah, I mean, definitely. I think social media especially Facebook, has been a great aid and a great ally to the deaf community in so many ways. It offers us a new way and new place to collaborate certainly. Of course, we do share our culture, but we're very spread out and social media helps us really strengthen those ties and those bonds in a really great way. I mean I think what's your question? >> Jonathan Capehart: Well, okay. So that's the positive aspect of social media. But in the chapter where you write about Sweden, it's also you hearken back to Sweden because of something that was happening to you in that moment and that was where there was a deaf vlogger , who took a picture of you, superimposed the picture on someone else, or basically said that you were on-- >> Nyle Dimacro: Right, yeah. It's a little bit of a separate time, but very close era, yeah. So I was on my journey and I was really exploring my sexuality and finding who I am. And I was starting to realize after college that maybe I wasn't 100% straight, but I didn't really know. I was still exploring. And there was this one blogger, terrible person honestly, I hate to say it, and I had gone on a date. It was a similar to Grindr. It was Scruff but I was on Grindr, obviously. But that was a long time ago it was a long time ago. I tried it out just to try it out. But they essentially had photoshopped face of mine and put it on Scruff and told everyone that Nyle was gay. And rumours started spreading and circulating really quickly, and I never got the opportunity to come out myself. I never got the opportunity to have that conversation, that I’m queer and that moment is very self-empowering for members of my community. And it's really a rebirth and a starting of new. And it was a lot of confusing questions at the time. I didn't identify as gay because I was still exploring, and I was figuring it out. But it became very well known in the community practically overnight. And obviously, I never had the opportunity to tell my mom or to tell my family or to tell my brothers. None of it and that opportunity was robbed. I mean, my mom has a ton of gay friends. I know that she’s go to studio 54, like I know that my mom would be excited and would celebrate with me. That was a moment that I was looking for. We'd be celebrating over mimosas. It'd be a great day but-- [laughs] I mean, it's a huge bummer that, that moment was taken. And honestly, the silver lining really is that it did help me move through the process and hit the gas pedal a little bit more and put myself out there. And in that time in my life, I did feel that I wanted to maintain some kind of semblance of privacy in my life. I wanted that and I wanted that balance. The TV world, Hollywood in general requires you to bear a lot of your soul and risk it all and give your pound of flesh. I mean, they want to twist words and they want to get your every moment and your , every reaction. So at the same time, I really was working towards balance and keeping privacy. But I realized the importance of being out, I did. Sort of in that decision, and in the sort of acceptance of a term that would label me a member of the LGBTQ community, I realized how many kids and how many teens and young adults out there were looking for somebody like me who have reached out in that time and said, I'm in the deaf community, and I’ve never seen somebody like me. Somebody who's athletic, somebody who was outgoing, somebody who's a bit masculine, who has come out and taken on this label. And my coming out, I would hope, is a journey that provides them some support. Those rumors that happened, I really hope would support them. I mean, that vlogger had rumors going around essentially that he was closeted and he wasn't in a place where he was able to come out and I think a lot of that was internalized and I became the victim of that. But times have changed and I’ve moved on. I’ve moved past it but I do see the impact on kids, which is one of the really nice, I think, sort of byproducts of it. But yeah, I mean, I think you can find a little bit of balance now that I have been out here for a while that I’m very out and proud I think you can find it. And honestly, there's nothing wrong with it and I love that it gets better. >> Jonathan Capehart: We've got our conversation. We've got less than five minutes before we open it up to Q and A. Think of your questions now and be sure that they are questions and they are short. So we can get to as many people as possible in those speeches. Ignorant question number two from the hearing world. >> Nyle Dimacro: Bring it on. >> Jonathan Capehart: So I was- I think I was at a-- yes, I was at an apple store. And the genius who was helping me was deaf. The interpreter was standing right next to them. So I have a protocol question. Should one look at the interpreter or should one look at you? And that'll explain the setup we have here on the stage. >> Nyle Dimacro: Right. So it definitely is a question that I get asked all the time, and I certainly can understand how it's easy when you rely on sound to look at the person speaking instead of the person signing. That makes sense. But formally, you would look at me. It's proper etiquette certainly. That's actually why we have things set up the way that we do. We try to structure all of our conversations so that instead of the interpreter standing next to me, and keeping an eye line with them, you're able to make eye contact with me right now and you don't have to be uncomfortable. It would be very uncomfortable for you to crane your neck and look at Gray right now, which is intentional. But yeah, this is great. We're able to keep a really intimate conversation. >> Jonathan Capehart: Is there another protocol question that I should ask that folks in the hearing world should know when communicating with someone in the deaf community? >> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah, definitely. I think it's funny a lot of hearing people will literally tell the interpreter, they'll say, tell him, hey, tell him, tell. And I’m like, I’m standing right here. Hi, that's his whole job. So, yeah, I just always say, like talk to me like there's no interpreter here. Often people forget that they're even in the room. You don't have to say, tell him or tell her or ask them. But yeah, I mean, I think that's-- I don't know. It's definitely it's a learning experience, but maybe learning ABCs ahead of time. That's always helpful. It makes it more fun when you can spell. >> Jonathan Capehart: All right. we're going to go to Q and A. I see there's a microphone there and there's a microphone there. Again, questions, short questions, no speeches. If you start speechifying, then I’m going to have to be rude and interrupt you and I don't like doing it, but I’ll do it. So let's start here. >> I don't know if you remember me, but I worked at Gallaudet many years ago. I’m going to come up, if that's okay. >> Nyle Dimacro: It’d be great. that's a little hard to see back there. >> I don’t know. Can you see me better? >> Nyle Dimacro: Perfect >> my name is Teresa, and I actually taught you years ago so good to see you. >> Nyle Dimacro: Oh, this is my former professor. Hi. >> so, first of all, congratulations on the book. I was so excited to watch the progress and read it. I read the opening part, and then, I noticed that you wrote it -- >> Nyle Dimacro: With bobby >> I wrote it with Bobby and I’m curious about your process, the ghost-writing process. You said that you signed and then he watched those videos and he translated into English, and you went back and forth with that process. So as a writer myself, I am often thinking about when I’m writing an English for a deaf audience, so when I write in English for a deaf audience, often, I’m thinking about if someone is reading my words translated into English, I want my English words and my sentences to be extraordinarily clear if they're-- if the deaf people are reading it with English as a second language. so I’m typically signing kind of in very specific word order to give clear English translation. So I’m curious about your process in the ghost-writing process if you were thinking about that when you were signing. >> Nyle Dimacro: Sure, that's a great question. Also, great to see you again. It's actually one of the toughest professors I ever had, ladies and gentlemen. [laughter] So on to the writing process. We had to have that kind of conversation obviously, Bobby and I and it's funny, we did come up with a very different process that was quite unexpected. If you've ever played with glossing, which is a system essentially of writing out in ASL structure, it's not so much for a deaf audience, but more for a hearing audience to be able to read and see that there is a varied structure but also that it's different than English. I wanted people to see that it's not broken English, but that is how we signed. We signed in a different language with different grammatical rules. And to me, it was a really fun way to invite an audience to really be able to communicate and feel like they were in community with us. It was really fun and I do hope that the way that I structured my book allows access to other writers to really play around with their own format and with their own structures. For me, I mean, my gloss is still not perfect. I certainly have more work to do in the future. But I hope that I’m inspiring more writers that I can then pull from and glean really great stuff and bring an audience to fall into the community and to sort of use that in their own writing. Yeah, that was pretty much it. I know that might not exactly answer your question, but that's about as close as I’ve got. >> Jonathan Capehart: Thank you for that question. Question over here. >> Hello my name is August. >> Nyle Dimacro: Hey. >> I recently started school at Gallaudet university, and I have a bunch of friends here today. >> Nyle Dimacro: That's awesome. >> I was wondering if you have any advice for us >> Nyle Dimacro: Your first year at Gallaudet? >> a freshman absolutely. >> Nyle Dimacro: Oh, very cool. Oh, advice oh, man. To be honest, that's great honestly, not very friendly. No, sorry, I couldn't see your face. Yeah, I would say that my advice is just have fun at Gallaudet. Honestly, like any university in general, oh, here come forward a little bit. Yeah, that's right behind you. Yeah, I don't want that to hit you, careful. But I remember in my own experience in college, it's a lot. I was a double major. I took a very heavy course load before I graduated, and I had a lot of worries that I was making the right decision. And I wasn't sure if what I wanted to do for the next 30 years was to teach math. I definitely had a bit of an existential crisis, where I was having trouble sleeping at night but I think to know that life always works out is really helpful and you can always go back and find something else that you really enjoy. You never know. I mean, tastes change and what's good for you can change. I really love working in the entertainment industry. I love being a producer, but I also really enjoyed studying math and really enjoyed teaching math. So I think you should do what you really enjoy in four years of course study what you want. But explore and make new friends, and just have a great time. you'll learn so much more about yourself. But I think most importantly honestly, have fun. Just drink light beer. [laughter] >> Jonathan Capehart: Question over here. >> hi my name is Joe. >> Jonathan Capehart: Oh, sorry go ahead. >> I’m Joe. I am a language teacher. I teach Spanish. I have a passion for languages, so I’ve recently decided to teach myself ASL. So I was just wondering if you had any pointers or pieces of advice for a beginner, somebody who's picking up the language for the first time. >> Nyle Dimacro: Oh, great question. Honestly, I think-- Do you know who Lauren Ridloff is? She's absolutely one of my favorite people she was Marvel's first deaf superhero, which is really great, her character phenomenal, but her career has really just blown up. And one of the things she told me about her hearing friends who ask her the same question, she says, just hook up with a deaf person, start sleeping with them, and you're going to acquire ASL in half the time. Honestly, and in all seriousness, that's probably the best way. But first the ASL app is really fantastic. And then there's another one called Lingvano, that's fantastic, where you can learn with both hands in a really interactive way, but you can also take ASL classes here in DC. There are tons taught by , deaf people and it's a fantastic way to pick up the language. Or there's a huge deaf community here as well. You can show up to any of our events. You are absolutely welcome, make some friends, yeah, maybe meet somebody at DC is a perfect place actually to be picking up by yourself. >> Jonathan Capehart: As with any language, just sleep with someone. Share a pillow with them, pillow talk >> Nyle Dimacro: Right, absolutely, I mean, exactly. >> Jonathan Capehart: That’s how I learned Italian. Question here. >> So I have a comment and a question. The comment for the interviewer; you mentioned that the ASL had a dialect. The English language is the same way. There is a southern twang the Texas drawl is the same thing, no different. My question I’m going to be in ASL. >> So you've modeled, danced, written. What's next? >> Nyle Dimacro: Well, so I own a production company now and my production company has one clear goal. we want to better the lives of deaf people, but we want to empower them to be able to tell stories from their own POV. So for example, Deaf You and Audible, which are both on Netflix, were projects of ours and more recently, Audible, the short documentary that we produced was nominated for an Oscar, which was thrilling and completely unexpected. But really it was the beginning and the paving of a much longer road, which is to be able to bring deaf people to Hollywood, to be able to act and to be able to write and to be able to produce. We have a few different shows happening right now with places like Peacock and with ABC and with Netflix. My next one is we're producing a limited series about the Deaf President Now, action that happened here at Gallaudet University, which gave rise to the passage of the ADA in 1990. So I think that's really my next step is just producing, thanks. >> Jonathan Capehart: Question here. >> I’m about to finish my graduate degree in American-- in counseling, in school counseling. I actually have an associate's in ASL, but I haven't practiced, so I’m really bad at it. But my question is, what advice would you give to me being a hearing person who possibly will be interacting with deaf students in a public hearing school? >> Nyle Dimacro: Whew, that is a tough one I’m not in the field, so it's not my expertise but I think knowing the options that are available and knowing what's accessible to deaf people, to be able to provide them all of the options, to be able to make their own informed choice I think you'd be surprised at how many deaf kids don't realize what's actually available and out there, out there for them. So I think as a counselor it's a big part of your job to really research those find those out and always present those on the table and let them choose the path that's really right for them. >> Jonathan Capehart: Okay, we've got a little less than 10 minutes left, and I really want to be able to get to everyone who's still standing in line. So really short questions right here, you are up. >> Hi I have one comment and one question. My name is Jonathan. I’m a graduate student at Gallaudet University. And my comment is I grew up in the hearing world and have signed and communicated with hearing people using speech and I also speak other languages, but it's hard to identify tonal language sometimes, and it's hard to express ideas. But when once I learned sign language, it was really easy for me to be able to express myself in American sign language rather than in spoken language. So I am now researching accessibility for human centered computing and you said that you traveled different places. I was wondering what was the best advice that people seen in regard to accessibility and really understanding each other when you come from different countries? >> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah, I think using the app Cardzilla is probably the most accessible for hearing people for me to be able to communicate with them because it has speech to text, which is really cool and I can text back and forth and it's big, bold print. There's actually another app where you can type in the word and find the ASL sign that matches. So I mean what's next for accessibility? I have no idea but with what we already have on the table as tools, I’m very excited, yeah. I don't know that I would have a really great answer for that, to be honest with you. I’d have to think about it a little bit. Awesome. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your well wishes. >> Jonathan Capehart: Next question right here. Yup you're up. >> Hi, my name is Chanel, and I just have a quick question for you. So we see now in the fashion world just how much boundaries are being changed and pushed with models such as Winnie Harlow and Ashley Graham. How do you feel you winning America’s Next Top Model have really further pushed the fashion boundaries and what it really means to be inclusive? >> Nyle Dimacro: Oh yeah, to be honest with you, I think after America’s Next Top Model, I really thought things would be easier. I thought things would get easier in the modeling world, but couldn't be more untrue it was really hard, actually. I wasn't booking huge jobs and huge campaigns at all. There was still so much more work that I had to do and so much more advocacy. My agent was fantastic but still, I didn't find myself in a place where companies really knew exactly what to do with me. So I think to change an industry those agencies and those modeling reps needed to have deaf representation from the inside. They needed to be able to work with clients across the board who are deaf and hearing. I think really change happens certainly inside. It doesn't happen out front just on the camera. It happens every day in the office and the conversations that they have. But honestly, I’m really happy to see that work being done and I wish those people the best in that industry. I want to see that grow and I want to see the change. I mean, there has been a change more widely for disabled people disabled people, yes. >> Thank you so much. >> Jonathan Capehart: Thank you. The timekeeper tells me we've got five minutes left and we have to end on time so next question. >> I’ll be quick, I promise. My name is Cameron. I’m from Northern Virginia, and I’m hard of hearing. So the career of yourself and other deaf actors has been super meaningful to me in terms of getting my disability normalized so that I can come to self-acceptance. But I’m curious about your experience on the other side of that equation as a person giving representation and giving normalization. How does that feel for you? >> Jonathan Capehart: Great question >> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah, very euphoric euphorically. Now, definitely feels like the right time, hearing people are curious about sign language and they're curious about the nuances of the deaf experience, the types of deaf people out there. That's a really exciting time to be alive. I think the future is very bright, but for right now, I want to challenge Hollywood. If you want to invest in deaf stories, you have to invest in deaf people first. you have to hire them into writers’ rooms and as producers and as creators. That part is still very much lacking, so we have a lot of work to do sort of behind the curtain, if you will. Obviously, I’m doing my part through my own TV and film shows where I do hire those people. Like with Deaf You, we did something groundbreaking where we had a ratio of 50% deaf and 50% hearing behind the camera. That was the first time in history that had been done in entertainment was groundbreaking. But if Hollywood wants to see more deaf stories, they need to invest on a deeper level into our people. >> Jonathan Capehart: Thank you Next question. >> I’ll be very brief. So a controversial topic, cochlear implants. What do you think is the role of cochlear implants in the deaf community if there is one? >> Nyle Dimacro: Cochlear implants, Certainly, are still a very controversial topic. I will agree with you there. Our community doesn't-- I don't think, have a correct answer for it but my personal view is I think the value that we place on those conversations should be placed on language access first and foremost, it's key. I think what we need to talk about is how many kids are arriving to the age of five without a foundation and language and how they're not being set up for success. I think we need to provide actual benchmarks and actual systems that will prevent those losses and prevent the language deprivation. Cochlear implants are welcome to stay controversial. I want to focus on language. That's a really tough answer, though. >> Jonathan Capehart: Oh, my clock says three minutes left. The timekeeper says two minutes left, go. >> Hi my name is Mary and I am a writer. And I have a character who is-- Hilariously, I didn't know a whole lot about you before coming into this panel. And my character is a gay deaf man who's-- I know this is quite exciting for me. >> Nyle Dimacro: But I can translate that >> but I was curious about little tidbits of things from the deaf culture that are very common and very normalized among the deaf community that seem very normal but then anybody who like-- any hearing people, kind of find them very odd or very unusual like those little things. >> Nyle Dimacro: Yeah, definitely, definitely, yeah. There's a lot of those, I would say like what we were talking about before where deaf people celebrate the birth of a deaf baby, many people look at that as not normal at all. I would say, yeah what else? I would say culturally and within our community, I think we're looked at as not normal we're looked at this sort of precious group but we actually have a lot of incredible identities and a lot of diversity and we don't need to be fixed as hearing people often assume >> Thank you so much >> Jonathan Capehart: You should read the book. >> I know I need to know now. >> Jonathan Capehart: You'll get all the information. We have less than a minute left. and I want to get this last question in real fast. >> Nyle Dimacro: Yes, we can do it. >> Yes, I’ll be quick. I love queer as folk and was super psyched to see that you were part of the reboot. I would love to know what your experience briefly was like on the show. >> Nyle Dimacro: Fantastic. It was an awesome experience. I saw so many other disabilities on set with me, which is great, right, more than just deafness, there were people with CP, they're wheelchair users. So many different types of disability represented and I think how queer as folk has really evolved from its first iteration up till now. And this reboot is so reflective of the work that we're doing in the industry but especially within the space of the LGBTQ community, I’m really thrilled. I hope it gets picked up for a season two. I want to go back. >> Me too. So good, thank you. >> Jonathan Capehart: The name of the book is “Deaf Utopia, a memoir And a Love Letter To a way of life.” first and foremost, Donna DiMarco, thank you for bringing us, Nyle DiMarco. Thank you very much for being here. [applause]