>> Alexandra Petri: Let's dive
right into it.
"Are We Eating our Young?"
>> Will Bunch: Yes. So
[Laughing] it's been nice.
It's been nice
seeing all of you.
I did not come up
with the title,
but I love it.
In fact, I think I might ask
William Morrow about
changing the title
of the paperback to,
"Are We Eating Our Young?"
because it's a great title.
Because yeah,
it's been fascinating
in the last week.
I guess all of you have seen
President Biden announcing
there's a
student loan forgiveness
and it's really accelerated.
[Applause]
Yeah, I liked it [Laughing].
It's really accelerated
this conversation
that we've been
starting to have,
and we should have
probably started sooner.
And now it's picking up,
which maybe isn't,
"Are We Eating Our Young,"
but—but it is kind of
what are we doing with college?
Because there's
a couple of things
and they're kind of related
to each other.
One is...
And I mean, really the reason
I wrote the book,
I mean, I came at it
from the perspective
of somebody
who's been a political writer
for 40 years.
Because it was fascinating
to me to watch college
become the fault line
in American politics,
and the fact
that every election,
more and more you see
that whether or not
you have a college degree seems
to determine how you vote.
Seeing the Democrats
become more and more the party
of people with college degrees,
the Republicans repositioning
themselves as the party
of working class people
who don't have diplomas.
And so I wanted to find out
what was going on with that.
But—but clearly,
people in America
are more and more
are thinking that kind
of our way of college
and higher education is broken.
I mean, you're seeing it
in terms of
there's really been
a noticeable decline
in college enrollment
in the last couple of years.
I think it's dropped 9%
since the start of the pandemic.
The surveys they do.
Higher education in college
used to be, for many years,
was one of the most trusted
institutions in this country.
And in the last
just a few years,
trusting in college
or its approval rating,
I guess you'd call it,
has dropped about 19%.
And so people wanna have
this conversation
about what is college for
and who should pay for it?
Is it society's responsibility
or is it the responsibility
of the individual?
And because people
are starting to ask,
are our young
being eaten up by this system?
>> Alexandra Petri: And
I thought it was
really interesting
having the conversation
around the
student loan forgiveness,
the way what you mentioned
in your book,
the way we talk about
college students
and people
with college educations
and how that's changed
over the years
since the GI Bill
and the sort of the effort
that's been put into creating
this idea of,
these beatniks are coming in
and they're gonna transform
our lives by setting buildings
on fire and so forth.
And so how did that start?
I mean, don't spoil
the entire book [Laughing],
but you have given
a lot of thought
and research into
how did going to college
go from being this,
"Here's the thing, we're gonna
all do as a society,
as a nice gift to people
coming back from World War II"
to, "I'm not so sure about
that fella."
>> Will Bunch: Yeah.
Well, one thing
and I think this comes across
in the book
and I've even thought about it.
I think more
since I finished
writing the book is...
You know,
so I'm a baby boomer, right?
So I went to college from 1977
to 1981, and that was really
kind of the tail end of
what in the book
I call, "The Golden Age
of College,"
which is late 40s, 50s, 60s.
I'm talking about the time
when you could go
to a great state university
like Michigan or UCLA
or somewhere like that
for a few hundred dollars
a year, you know?
Well, tuition a year
at University of California
was actually free up
until the mid 1970s.
And—and once college started
once more and more people
started going to college
after World War II, you know,
because of prosperity,
because of the opportunities
that were available,
the—the atmosphere,
you know, the vibe around
college was hope.
It was hopeful.
People were excited
because it was a possibility
to do better
than your parents' generation.
And maybe your dad
had worked in a factory
and now you had an
opportunity to get an education.
And instead of working
in a factory or on a farm,
you could work with your mind,
you could do something
more creative.
And—and it wasn't
that difficult to go to college.
It wasn't as expensive.
It wasn't as hard to get in.
The admission rate at schools
was in 6%, you know.
And it was exciting.
I remember being
a high school senior
in the mid 70s,
and we would go out
on Friday nights
and talk about
what college we might get into.
And it was just very exciting,
you know.
And then flash forward
to the 2010s
and now I'm a parent
and I have two kids
in high school at that time
and they're getting ready
to go to college.
And really I think
a lot of people
in the audience,
I think can probably
relate to this.
I think the prevailing attitude
around higher education
nowadays is fear that people
and in several ways...
I mean, the biggest fear is,
how am I ever
gonna pay for this?
I mean, I think it's kinda cool
that I'm doing this
program with you,
Alexander, as a moderator,
'cause you're
a new parent, right?
You just had your first child.
And not to turn the tables
on you or anything,
but I can imagine,
after the initial wave
of excitement,
you probably start thinking,
"Alright, now how am I gonna pay
for my child to go to college?"
It's like you start thinking
about that from day one.
But also a lot of
middle class families,
there's this enormous pressure
that they feel like their kid
has to go to the right college,
or else—or else
that they're not gonna
get ahead in life
if they don't go
to the perfect school,
if they don't get into
the best possible college.
So there's that.
And the thing about college
and this is an important
part of the book
and I try to explain it,
it's like you're not
gonna solve  these problems
that we have around
higher education,
unless you address the fact
that most people
don't go to college
or half of people
don't go to college
or nearly half.
Only 37% of adults right now
are people who've completed
their bachelor's degree
and have a four-year degree.
So what about the other 63%?
And their fear is different,
but their fear is
that because they didn't
go to college,
because we've established
this system that's kind
of a meritocracy in which
the merit is whether
or not you go to college
and get a degree.
And so if you're somebody
who doesn't go to college,
you will choose not to go
to college,
or you can't afford
to go to college.
People are worried
or fearful that people think
that they're less worthy,
that they lack merit,
that they have less self-worth.
So all of those bad vibes
have been surrounded
with higher education.
And it's because
we privatize the system,
that we haven't made it into.
We've gotten away
from the idea that higher
education is a public good
that society is responsible for.
>> Alexandra Petri: Two things
that came up
that I thought
were really interesting
in the book where
you talk about meritocracy.
And apparently the first time
the term meritocracy was used,
it was sort of with an irony.
It's like this
is a made up word,
because we're not sure
about this concept.
>> Will Bunch: It was satire.
It was something
that you would have written,
right?
Yeah, I know [Laughing].
It's...
Yeah.
>> Alexandra Petri: But
it's gone to being the thing
that people think very serious.
>> Will Bunch: Right.
And the people adopted it,
is yes, this is great,
a meritocracy.
And it's an understandable idea,
right?
That we give everybody...
Everybody's got the opportunity
to go to college
and get an education,
and you're gonna rise
on your own merit.
If you work hard and study
and do all the right things,
then we know
you're gonna get ahead.
But the reality is
it doesn't work that way.
I mean, for a couple of reasons.
One is, I mean,
I hate to use this word,
but the meritocracy
is kind of rigged, right?
I mean, because
if you come from...
If you become
from a more affluent...
I mean, look at the SATs.
I mean, the SATs were developed
to further this idea
of a meritocracy.
It's like we're maybe
not admitting
certain kinds of people,
so we're gonna give
everybody this test.
Everybody's gonna get a score,
and we'll know
who the people who have
the most merit are,
because they have
the highest score.
But what's happened is,
you all know,
over the years is
more affluent families
spend thousands or in some cases
even tens of thousands
of dollars on SAT preparation,
on tutors.
It's like, well,
there's also the essay question.
Well, people spend
thousands of dollars
on essay tutors
and essay preparation
And the other thing
about the meritocracy
as we all know,
is these elite colleges
that so many people
are shooting for,
give enormous preference
to the children of alumni
and legacy admissions.
And so the number of slots
that are actually out there
for Joe working class guy
who worked really hard
in his high school
and in his Rust Belt community
and did well,
there's just not as many...
There's not
that many opportunities
for those people.
So yeah.
So the meritocracy fails
on that regard.
But the other thing,
like I said,
we don't have
a universal college system.
We don't have a system
where everybody in the country
is going to college,
and we're probably
never gonna have that,
or at least
not in our lifetimes.
And so, are you really saying
that people who don't go
to college are failures
in the system?
I mean, you shouldn't,
but we do—we do tend to do
that in this society.
And it's important,
as I think a lot of you know,
because this drives
political resentment.
And political resentment
is what's driving the things
we're seeing
in the country right now.
It's driving Donald Trump,
it's driving
climate change denial.
It drove January 6th.
Those things are rooted
in resentment,
and resentment I think
is rooted very heavily
in how this
meritocracy idea went awry.
>> Alexandra Petri: And I think
in terms of the fears
and the idea going awry,
you trace through the book
and the evolution of
how people view
what the college student
is there to do,
and what the college student
is trying to get out
of this experience.
And so like in the 1920s
or 19teens,
when you've got 4%,
I think you said of the
[crosstalk agreeing]
nation is going to college.
You've got like all these people
sitting there
in their ivory towers
drinking gin out of snifters
and like a paneled library
and not going to class
for that reason.
And then like,
eventually people were like,
"I wanna learn things."
And so with the GI Bill,
people would come in
and they would say,
all the civilian students
are thinking,
"This professor is ridiculous
and knows nothing."
But the GI is,
"No, they don't know anything.
And so they're here to learn."
And then you get later on
the idea that the student
is there
to be turned into kind
of a product for the employer.
And then can you sort of
talk us through that?
I'm now...
>> Will Bunch: Yeah.
No, that's a great question.
I mean—I mean,
there's—there's really
been this fascinating debate,
you know, ever—ever since
the dawn of college
probably in America, you know,
about what-what's the purpose
of going to college?
And you-you really
have these two poles, right?
On one pole is,
are you going to college
to become a better person,
to develop a philosophy of life
to become a better citizen,
to learn critical thinking,
right?
That which is so important.
And the other pole is,
I'm going to college
'cause I wanna get a job
and make money, basically.
I mean, those are the two poles.
And—and the thing is,
you know, I had always,
like, just inherently sensed
that things had changed a lot
over the course of my lifetime.
And it was interesting
researching this book
to find out that surveys
and statistics have really
borne that out.
So just backing up,
like you said,
the attitude after—after
World War II with the GI Bill,
which is when you saw
a huge surge in enrollment
because the government offered
this amazing benefit
to returning veterans
that they could go
to college free,
that they got a living stipend,
they got their books,
everything was paid for.
And like you said,
these—these were great students
because they, you know...
People—people had thought that
working class
and middle class Americans
weren't college material,
and it turned out they were,
that they were great students,
they wanted to learn.
And so that's when
that's—that's how the golden age
of college really kind of
kicked off, right?
But what was also happening
at that same time
was this was the time
in American history
we had just gone through
the Great Depression,
we'd just gone through
World War II,
World War I before that.
Horrible things
that happen in the world
in terms of totalitarianism,
whether it was fascism
or whether it was
what Stalin was doing
in the Soviet Union.
And there was really a faith
among thought leaders
and educators that—
that education was the way
out of these problems, you know.
That—that a better
education citizenry
would embrace democracy,
you know, and would,
you know, would—would value,
would develop moral values
and become better citizens.
A—and that was really
the zeitgeist, you know,
in the 40s and 50s.
And—and what I trace
in the book
and what's so important
and fascinating
and you alluded to this earlier
in one of
your earlier questions,
is so—so what happened is,
you had this incredibly
idealistic generation
of young people going to college
in the 50s or early 60s
and mid 60s,
and you think about that time,
it was JFK and the Peace Corps
and the New Frontier.
And it was just...
It was a very optimistic time
when young people, you know,
were feeling good
about democracy and these ideas.
And then they looked around
and I call it blowback
in the book.
You know, they saw hypocrisy
right here in the US.
You know, that they...
You know, it's like, well,
if we're gonna embrace
the moral values
that we're learning about
here in college,
what's—what's the deal
with racial apartheid
in the South?
You know,
why do we have segregation?
And I mean,
really, the Greensboro
lunch counter sit ins in 1960
that spread across the South
really just electrified young people
and college students
that they could,
that they could actually put
what they were learning
about democracy to use
for our cause here—here at home,
you know.
And—and so this flowed into the
Berkeley Free Speech movement,
which was a movement
for—for kids to be able
to—to do political stuff
on campus.
But it was really a lot of it
was motivated by wanting
to speak out about civil rights.
And that flowed right into
the Vietnam War.
And again,
young people saw hypocrisy
and—and thought that,
thought that American militarism
and imperialism
didn't meet the values
that they were learning about
in their sociology
and philosophy classes.
And so why this is so important
is there was a backlash.
The leader of that backlash,
you might have heard of him,
Ronald Reagan was...
Ronald Reagan was this...
Was, you know, a conservative,
kind of a long shot
underdog candidate
who ran for governor
of California in 1966.
And he—he seized
on what was happening
on college campuses,
particularly the University
of California at Berkeley
as his main issue.
That kids were, you know,
dancing to under strobe lights
and doing these
unthinkable things, and—and they
were becoming communists.
And—and he won in a landslide.
And, you know,
Reagan—Reagan said,
Reagan wanted
to end free tuition
in California.
And he said taxpayers
shouldn't be studying
the intellectual curiosity
of young people,
which is the,
is the 100% polar opposite
of that philosophy,
that of liberal education.
You know, and that became,
over time, that's become
the philosophy.
That's the beginning
of the privatization
of—of college education.
That's when college,
That's when higher education
stopped being a public good
and it started being a burden
that was to be put on families,
that this was like
an investment that you...
Alright, if you—you know...
We'll give you...
And you still have
an opportunity.
You know, obviously,
millions of people
still go to college,
and we still have lots
of college opportunity
in this country,
but you've gotta,
you've got to invest
in yourself.
You've gotta come up
with a way you and your family
have to figure out
how to pay for this.
And we promised, you'll make,
you'll make them...
It's a good investment,
you'll make the money back.
You know,
and—and, of course,
the crisis has been
that that didn't
really work out.
>> Alexandra Petri: You
mentioned a couple
of turning points
when this could
have been different,
where in like the 40s
instead of coming up
with a grant system
just saying this could have been
we're going to package this
into the welfare
that we think people deserve
to have and that didn't happen,
and then it made it easier
to chip away.
Were there other turning points
like that when?
>> Will Bunch: Yeah.
I think—I think there were,
I think there were several
turning points, like you said.
I mean, so was so in the 40s.
I mean, the GI Bill,
there was a lot of excitement
about how well this
had worked out.
Harry Truman was the president.
He named a panel,
it was—it's kind of—kind of
lost to history.
But education history buffs
all know about this.
But he—he started
this national panel
called the Truman Commission,
a blue—blue ribbon commission
to study what America should do
about higher education.
The panel said
that higher education
should be at least free
for the first couple of years
of college, i.e.,
community college, basically.
But they didn't really
come up with any way
for the government to
directly fund higher education.
You know, I mean, it's funny
because we basically I mean,
this is a pretty simple concept,
right?
Because we, for a long time
in America have come to accept
the idea that K through 12
education is absolutely
a public good.
So if you never have children,
if your children are grown,
you're still paying taxes
in your community
for the kids of your community
to get an education
up through grade 12.
And, you know, obviously,
since—since the middle
of the 20th century,
getting an education
beyond age 12 of some kind,
whether it's
a classroom college education
or whether it's trade school
or some kind
of advanced learning is critical
for getting ahead now
that we don't,
but we didn't extend that.
We didn't extend
the make that, you know.
And we couldn't, you know,
I mean, obviously
in the 40s, 50s and 60s,
we made other programs
like—like Medicare
and Social Security
that we made into a public good,
but we elected
not to do that with college.
So—so that was
a huge turning point.
And then because
we didn't do that,
that allowed what happened
in the 70s
where you had a new wave
of conservative politicians
like Reagan, like—like Nixon,
like who turned
against higher education.
And since then, since—since
you hadn't, since you hadn't
established it as a public good,
it made them easy—easy
for them to push through
policies that made
it more privatized,
which meant that the government
gave, you know,
the size and influence
of Pell Grants,
which are the grants
that you don't have to pay back.
Those—those started
to shrink and the dependence
became more and more on loans
that people would have
to pay back.
>> Alexandra Petri: The irony,
as you say, is that
just at the time when it became
this sort of necessary
kind of credential
for a lot of the jobs
in the economy
was the time when
it suddenly wasn't paid
for anymore
because it chipped away at
so much by people
with an ax to grind
against the university
for whatever reason.
And then also that you're having
the colleges themselves
want money for various
exciting things
that they have,
what they'd like to do
to attract more people
to campus, and then it sort of
spirals out of control
>> Will Bunch: Yeah, I mean,
it was—it's a weird thing,
and I don't think this
was necessarily intentional.
It was just kind of a
perfect storm of—of bad timing.
But, you know, in—in
going back to that golden age
of college in the 60s, you know,
so many students majored
in the humanities
or social sciences, you know.
It was really the—the golden age
also of like people majoring
in English literature
or—or sociology.
You know, philosophy
was like a hugely popular major.
And, you know, when the,
when the 70s came,
a bunch of things
happened all at once.
I mean, the economy,
as we all know,
got worse in the 70s,
and all of a sudden
people realized that,
well, if I have
an English literature degree
or a sociology degree,
I may not be able to get a job
like I would have ten years ago.
And so more and more people
started majoring in business
or engineering
or things like that.
And—and at the same time,
like you said,
there's this idea
it's called credentialism.
Basically, that, you know,
job recruiters in order
to decide who they think
are the best candidates
for a job,
they started deciding,
well, the best candidate is
somebody who has
a college degree.
And—and the better, the better,
the better the name
of the college,
probably the better the applicant.
And this became
such an important credential.
So people desperately needed
this diploma to stay
in the middle class, you know,
to keep to—to
to do as good,
if not better
than their parents' parents
had done.
And but to get this,
you couldn't get a degree
without spending
an enormous amount of money.
And for the vast majority
of people that now has...
That now means borrowing
enormous amounts of money.
And so people—people who
hadn't been paying attention
all of a sudden it's like,
"Oh my God,
where did this $1.7 trillion
debt thing come from?"
Well, that's where
it came from. So, yeah.
>> Alexandra Petri: And
it's just so frustrating
hearing people talk
about it as though,
like everyone had the same
opportunity to make
the same choice
to incur this debt
in the same way.
And some people
were responsible about it,
and they don't have any debt
and other people
were irresponsible
and have debt.
Like just the conversation
that people are having
is though there hasn't been
an erosion over time
of your ability to go to school
without having
to bankrupt your future self.
>> Will Bunch: Yeah.
I think—I think it's a lot
of, you know,
people choosing to ignore
what, you know,
who really has wealth
and-—and, you know,
and who doesn't, you know.
One—one just incredibly
important aspect of this whole
student loan situation right now
is—is the racial aspect of it.
Because, you know,
we have—we have an enormous
racial wealth gap
in this country.
You know, the average—the
average white household
has 20 times the net worth
of the average black household.
And where the rubber
hits the road is—is
college, right?
Because, you know,
so many young African Americans
desperately wanna get
a college degree
and—and move up in the world
and get into the middle class.
And that there's literally
no family wealth that—that
a typical white family
might have to fall back on.
And these are...
And so when you look at
when you—when you drill down
into the numbers of who
has these college loans,
the number of loans,
but also the size of the loans
disproportionately falls
on African Americans.
It also, I should note,
it also falls to some extent
disproportionately on women.
And remember, we live
in a society
where women don't have
the same earning power
still as men
after all these years.
And so women are...
And—and by the way,
also women now attend college
at a higher rate than men.
I think—I think right now,
women are up
to almost 60%
of college enrollment.
And so women are borrowing money
to get these college degrees
and they're going into
the workforce
where they're not paid
as much as men.
And they're expected
to pay—pay the money back
from these earnings.
So—so there's a lot...
You know, there's a lot of
racial and gender implications
to the—to the college debt crisis.
That's why—that's why
people applauded Biden
for doing this
because it's important.
>> Alexandra Petri: And
the other thing, going back
to Ronald Reagan [Laughing].
>> Will Bunch: [cross talk]
it's hard—It's hard not to.
I actually wrote a whole book
about him, too.
>> Alexandra Petri: So, good.
Well, you're—you're the man
to go back
to Ronald Reagan with.
I was struck by the fact
that he became such
a anti-collegiate fellow
because I know
one of the things
that he always cited
as his influence
for going into politics
was he was sitting there
reading the National Review.
And of course,
what catapulted Buckley
onto the national stage was
he went to Yale
and he didn't like it.
And he wrote a whole book
about how much he'd hated
going to Yale,
basically because he thought
they weren't indoctrinating
him properly as—as far
as I could tell.
I took it to the beach one year,
[Laughing] which was
a horrible mistake [Laughing].
And so it's like it's such
a small book,
but it takes so long
to read [Laughing].
But [cross talk]
"God and Man at Yale."
It's his basic thesis
was sort of throwing
another wrench,
sort of one of the cultural war
wrenches in was saying,
"I think the parents
are the consumers,
and they're paying
to send their children who are,
I guess not the consumers
in this situation
to get a specific product,
which is to be taught about God
and man and the proper way."
And instead the university's
making them ask
all these questions.
And the economics department
is not teaching economics
in the way
that I want it taught.
And I wonder if that factored
into Reagan's thinking
and—and sort of how much"
the idea like this
is a good place to have
a big cultural fight
if you see it starting
kind of there
or even trace it earlier.
>> Will Bunch: Yeah.
No, no, absolutely.
You know, I mean,
it's fascinating.
Like you said,
ever since—ever since
William F. Buckley went
to college and what was it,
the late 40s or early 50s?
You know, you've had this idea
of conservatives, you know.
I mean, academics as a field,
academics is a field
that has an ethos,
an ethos, right?
Ethic—ethics that are built
around research,
built around truth,
built around science,
it tends to attract
more liberal people than,
you know.
And it's always been
that way, right?
And so—so this conservative
complaint that colleges
are places that indoctrinate
people to become more liberal.
And, you know, it's...
I don't know if more
liberal necessarily,
but there are a lot of studies
that the college experience
is something that creates
more tolerance
and more understanding,
you know.
Because not—not just
because of what you learn,
although that's
a big part of it.
But also
because of your environment.
Colleges are very
if they're—if they're well run,
it's a diverse environment.
You're meeting people
from other parts of the world.
You're meeting people
from other religions,
other backgrounds
that if you'd stayed
in your hometown,
you might not have met.
And, you know,
why—why the why the 1960s
are so important was because
college enrollment
exploded in the 1960s.
So you had more and more
young people going away
and get, and getting
these experiences
and becoming more tolerant
or more liberal or whatever
you wanna call it.
And so, yeah, if you're,
if you're William F. Buckley
or if you're Ronald Reagan
and you're the leader
of the conservative movement,
it's absolutely oppositional
to the values that you're—
that you're trying to promote.
And—and, you know,
and they found also the...
You know, Reagan
found politically,
there was a big
audience for that.
You know, that there were
a lot of people,
a lot of older people,
who didn't get the opportunity
to go to college that these
young people were getting.
And, you know, they were able
to gin up this resentment.
You know, you know,
people—people don't realize...
I mean—I mean, there was
the reaction and the backlash
to some of the student protests in the 1960s.
You know, when the—
when the Kent State massacre...
I mean, what we know
about the Kent State massacre,
basically these National
Guardsmen for no reason
turned around and fired
on a group of students
and killed—killed four people,
wounded nine people.
It was a horrible incident.
And when you ask people,
they did a poll
on the 50th anniversary,
which was in 2020.
And most people,
common sense—sensibly
said the National Guard was
to blame for what happened.
But in 1970, when it actually
happened contemporaneously,
58% of the public blamed
the students for what happened.
>> Alexandra Petri: Is it like
going to the funerals
and chanting that they should
have studied more?
>> Will Bunch: Yeah. "Kent—Kent
State Four should
have studied more."
The people who die...
The funeral services
where people who died
that they should
have studied more.
And that was, you know,
and there was a great line.
This wasn't a Kent State,
but it was one of the protests
after Kent State,
I think at Northwestern
or some other school
where, you know,
just some guy on the street
saw these kids protesting
and—and just ran up
and started attacking them
and said, "You guys are getting
the opportunity I never had,
and you're all blowing it."
And just it was a quote.
It just summed up
the whole resentment politics
that would really play out
over the next 50 years
on this road to Trump
and whatever else
we're dealing with right now.
>> Alexandra Petri: And the
funny thing is,
reading this that also struck me
that it's not a new idea.
Because I was an English
and classics major
in a sort of
a complicated manner.
But the Aristophanes,
one of his plays
that I think is funniest
and holds up the best
is about a dad who thinks
I gotta send my son
to essentially, college.
Like, he sends...
Strepsiades sends his son,
Pheidippides,
who like is betting
too much money on the horses,
and he sends him
to learn from Socrates
in this thinkery.
And basically Pheidippides
comes back and he's like,
"I no longer think that
what your values are,
are correct, Dad.
And I'm gonna use my argument
to say that my generation's
correct in ways
that your generation isn't."
And this is from like 400 B.C.
So the idea that I'm gonna
send my son to college
and he's gonna be ruined,
apparently has been a potent
one, and has been with us
for a super long time.
>> Will Bunch: Yeah,
a—absolutely [Laugh].
You know, I mean,
it's just one of the great
moral debates of all time,
you know, is—is how educated
do we need to be
and what, you know,
what is education for?
But—but—but I think
you're right.
And I think—I think
this fear that parents
and families have
that they're gonna
let go of their kids, you know,
and send them off to school,
you know, send them away,
and they're gonna come back
and not have the same values
or—or not have
the same religion,
or not have the same politics.
I mean, first of all,
I mean, it does happen, right?
So but...
So it's—it's a very real fear.
And, you know, it's really
—it's really played out.
If you want to talk about
what's going on
in America right now,
you know,
the—the George Floyd protests
have been...
Were such a change moment for this country.
And a couple of things
about that.
One, and I think—I think
a lot of people
don't understand this,
I tried to make this point
in the book is that the—the
whole—the whole George Floyd,
the whole Black Lives Matter,
George Floyd protests of 2020,
this—this was a revolution
of the college educated,
you know, sociologists
who went out
and studied who was
actually doing these protests
were like amazed
that like 80% of the people
who were marching
at some of these marches
had college degrees.
So it was not like,
it was not like
the long hot summer
of the 1960s when cities
were erupting
and it was working class,
you know, black people
in the cities.
It was—it was, you know,
and I think what—what,
what's happening right now
is that people on the right
made this connection
that, you know, why—why
are all of our young people,
you know, taking part
in these Black Lives
Matter marches?
Because you would go to places
like Mt. Vernon, Ohio,
or these conservative towns
in middle America,
and they were getting hundreds
of people for Black
Lives Matter marches.
And people on the right decided
it must be what
our young people
are being taught.
That they're being taught
these different values
than—than our values,
which is—is white privilege
and white supremacy,
apparently to some degree.
But so—so what we're seeing,
this whole freak-out
that we're seeing right now,
I mean, this is kind of beyond
a little bit past the purview
of my book, I guess.
But 'cause you're seeing it
go into K through 12 education,
really this attack
on critical race theory,
you know, which is really
just anti-racism education.
But—but they call it
critical race theory.
And—And this freak out
about what kids are being taught
about race and what they're
being taught about
the LGBTQ community,
and what they're being taught
about gender.
And this whole idea
that books have to be removed
from libraries,
i—it's all a reaction
to this idea that,
like you said,
that my kid is going to school
and he's learning
to be different from me,
and I don't like it, you know.
And that's—that's
what's happening
in America right now.
>> Alexandra Petri: And I
know we are...
I think we have to...
[cross talk]
I think we're in question time.
So if people have questions,
I think there's microphones
on either end
and you can proceed
towards them
in a stately manner.
>> Will Bunch: That'd be great
[Laughing].
Hello.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Hi,
there, quick question.
>> Will Bunch: Yeah.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Part
of the title of your book
was, "How Do We Fix It?"
>> Will Bunch: [Laugh] Yeah.
That was—that was,
that was the hardest part
of the book to write,
absolutely.
The thing the—the thing about...
The thing in the book is
what I was trying to do
was I was trying to explore
the problem.
And my point was,
we need—we need to
get back to a different mindset.
You know, the mindset
that we had after World War II,
that how can we make
college a public good?
How can the society do more
to provide opportunities
for our young people?
You know, because right now
that's not the mindset.
The mindset is
the privatized mindset.
So—so to me, you know,
in the book, it's not—
it's not like Education
Department professors
debating very specific policies.
What I argue is we need—we need
to change the mindset
to make education,
higher education
a public good, again.
You know, I think—I think
the student loan forgiveness,
I think—I think we need to...
I think this should—should
have just been the first step
that we that we need to do more
because, you know,
entire couple generations
of young people were—were
basically sold a bill of goods.
You know, they were not given
the opportunities that—that
baby boomers
and other people were given.
And, you know,
and they were preyed upon
by some of these for profit
universities and other sharks.
And so I think—I think
student loan forgiveness
is part of the solution.
And I think—I think
we—we need to figure out
how to pay for opportunities
and we need
to make them broader.
Our concept needs
to be broader,
so we need to look at people
who aren't going
to traditional universities.
So we need to have
free trade schools,
we need to have internships.
And so and I devote
a whole chapter in the book
to the idea that—that
what would really be
a huge change
and help turn things around
would be Universal National
Civilian Service.
I think—I think 18-year-olds
should have a gap year
and, you know,
the government should give
people opportunities
to work in disadvantaged
communities or work
on climate projects
because God knows
there's a lot of work
in that area to be done.
Where just—just like,
just like people used
to join the military back
in the 50s and get drafted.
We—we don't want to go back.
We don't want that,
but we want people
from different backgrounds,
people from red states
and blue states
and from cities and from—
from small towns
and the Rust Belt
to work together on—on projects
that are in the public good.
I think—I think it would break—
break some of the cycle
that we're now we are losing
our young people at age 18.
I think this would instead
we're bringing
our young people together,
we're giving them a chance
to—to work together
and also to maybe focus on—
on their future and how
we can provide for a better
future for them.
Yeah
[Applauding].
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Hello.
Thank you for coming out today.
There's this old quote,
I remember that a society grows
great when old men plant trees,
the shade under which
they will never enjoy.
And we right now are
in a community or in a society
where we have young people
that can't afford housing
and are declining
to have children because
they can't afford
to have children,
and climate change overall.
And the phrase,
"Eating our young"
transcends just college.
It speaks to all these
other things.
So my question is,
how did we get to this place
where we have forgotten
that our children
are our community
rather than an
opposition to our community?
How did we end up here
where college is a wedge issue
rather than something that is...
You understand
what I'm getting at?
How did we get here?
>> Will Bunch: Yeah,
and you're right.
You make a good point.
I mean, obviously
for young people, you know,
you probably saw the report
this week about the—the
really surprising decline
in the national birth rate.
And that's a big part of it,
right?
You know, the fact that
not—not just college debt,
although college debt
is part of it,
but, you know,
the—the insane rents
that young people
are being asked to pay.
The fact that we have a
dysfunctional political system
that hasn't addressed
climate change.
They can't do anything
about gun safety.
So all of those things.
But again, you know,
as I trace in the book,
you know, it's I think—I think
it boils down to—to the haves
and the have nots,
you know, you know.
That when we—when we privatize
college education,
that—that was part of the...
That was part of the broader
problem of inequality
in our society.
That—that, you know,
privatized education
has furthered the unequalness
between the very rich
at the top and—and the broad
people who are being asked
to—to sustain capitalism
by working in jobs
that aren't
particularly fulfilling.
You know, I have to say,
I'll admit right now
to the biggest
and if I'd call it a mistake,
but my—my biggest regret
about the book,
which I'm gonna actually fix
in the paperback edition,
hopefully is, you know,
how after you've—after you've
spent two years doing
all this research
and it's finally,
the book's finally off
to the publisher,
And then a week later,
you find the killer quote
that should have been
in the book [Laughing].
Well, that—that happened to me.
So I—I learned
after I finished the book
that in 1970, right at the peak
of the campus protests
and everything,
this guy whose name
was Roger Freeman,
who I'd never heard of before,
but was actually an adviser
to both Richard Nixon
and Ronald Reagan,
and specializing
in like academic related issues.
And this Roger Friedman
gave an interview
to the "San Francisco Chronicle"
in 1970,
and he said
the quiet part out loud.
He said—he said,
"We can't—we can't have
an educated proletariat."
He said, "That would
be dynamite."
He said, you know,
he said,
"We have to—we have to accept
that college just
isn't for everybody,
that they were terrified.
They were terrified
of an educated,
poor working class
and middle class.
And the things
you've talked about
have flown from...
Have stemmed from
that attitude.
And and so I think—I think
we need,
I think we need to accept
that this was deliberate.
And, you know,
and how do we undo this?
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Thank you
very much.
>> Will Bunch: Thank you.
Thanks for coming.
Alexandra Petri: And I think
we might be at the end
of our time unless your question
is like a yes
or no question [Laughing].
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
First, after I urge everybody to
read Alexander Petri's column
daily in "The Post,"
[Applaud] and I believe
this is the most important
session and book
of this whole festival.
You know,
what you're addressing here,
and you describe it all greatly.
>> Will Bunch: Thank you.
>>MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: And
I'm just gonna say,
my—my hat says,
"Resist, organize, vote."
That's how to fix it.
But most particularly,
you alluded to the inequality,
why it is and so on.
It's the money in politics,
it's the wealthy people,
it's the Koch brothers,
ALEC, their organization,
you know, funding
the MAGA Republicans
and all the rest
that are basically
screwing the planet.
All of us, and especially
young people and
the future generations.
So money and politics,
getting it out,
reversing Citizens United, etc.,
you know, those
are the ways to fix it.
But can you add to that?
>> Will Bunch: I was
gonna—I was gonna add,
which is I think and—and
I think one of the main points
I try and make in the book
is—is that higher—higher,
higher education
and fixing this problem needs
to be a front burner issue.
It should be up in the top of
the issues we're talking about.
Because right now it's not.
And like, for example, I mean,
you look at when Biden came in
and he had a lot of good ideas
that he was pitching
and what was—what was
the first idea
that they eliminated
was free community college.
That was—that was the first idea
that got dropped
from his agenda,
when maybe that should
have been one of the first
things that they—
that they did, honestly.
And, you know,
I mean, plus it was killed by
Joe Manchin
who comes from West Virginia,
which if there's any place
in the country
that could benefit
from free community college,
it would be West Virginia,
right [cross talk]?
So—so I think—I think
you're right.
I think as voters,
we should be asking,
our elected officials, you know,
you know, what are
you gonna do?
Because, you know,
I mean—I mean, Congress
can do things.
Congress can tax Wall Street
or they can tax...
They can do a wealth tax
like Elizabeth Warren
has proposed.
And that's where the money
could come from
to give people free college
like you had in the 1960s.
And we should be doing that, so.
>> Alexandra Petri:
[Applauding] Well, thank you.
Well, thank you so much.
If you want more, read the book.
And thanks so much [cross talk]
for being here.
>> Will Bunch: This is it.
Here it is.
[cross talk] And I'll be—
I'll be 1 o'clock to two,
I'll be signing copies
if you guys wanna come by.
I—I'm so, I'm so grateful
so many of you came.
So I'd love to meet
some of you afterwards,
so that would be great.
Thanks a lot [applauding].