>> Sasha Dowdy:
Welcome, everybody,
to the National Book Festival
from the Library of Congress.
Thanks so much for being here.
I am super excited that we're
back in person since 2019.
And hope you are really enjoying
this in-person experience.
We're going to have a really
good time talking to these
two writers,
and they're creative
and truly unsettling but
incredibly thoughtful books.
Ryan La Sala is here with
"The Honeys".
[audience clapping]
>> Ryan La Sala: Thank you.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
He writes about surreal things
happening to queer people,
which is great
description such as
"Reverie" and "Be Dazzled".
And Tiffany D. Jackson.
[audience clapping]
She is the author
of "Allegedly",
"Monday's Not Coming",
and other titles
that tore my heart
straight out of my
chest in a good way.
My name is Sasha Dowdy. I'll
be moderating this session.
I work at the Library
of Congress Literary
Initiatives Team,
which does the book programs
for National Book Festival.
Myself and all of
our LOC and friends
are excited to have you here.
This would not be possible
without our sponsors.
So thank you to our sponsors.
And before we dive into the
conversation, I wanted you to
note that there is a Q and A
session at the end,
about 10 minutes. So
hang on to your questions
and you can see
both of these authors
at their signing
from 5:30 to 6:30.
So you get to get up close.
All right. Hold on to your hats.
We're going to start
with the fit check.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Oh, yeah.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Oh, yeah.
>> Ryan La Sala: Immediately.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Immediate?
>> Ryan La Sala: Me first.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yes.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Well, obviously.
>> Ryan La Sala: Oh, God.
Okay. Hey, everyone.
Let's see. Today I'm wearing
some banana republic.
I don't know. This is from,
like, a pajama store.
This was a shawl, but
the moths got to it.
But I figured that's a joke.
I have on some converse and some
sensible reading glasses.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: You could
really read with those probably.
>> Ryan La Sala:
I'm ready to read.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I am. Okay.
I am. I have no idea
where this dress is from.
I had a wardrobe malfunction
earlier, so we're having
kind of sixties doll.
>> Ryan La Sala:
You got like a pin-up look.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
These shoes are from DSW.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Yeah.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Good start. Good start.
We should have done
that for Nick Offerman,
but maybe next time.
All right, So, first of all,
my first question is,
how dare you write those books?
>> Ryan La Sala: I agree.
>> Sasha Dowdy: We're going to,
figure out how you dare.
But before we get into that,
just tell me about yourselves
and your book and Tiffany,
you go first.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: So hi,
I'm T.D. Jackson, obviously.
And so my book,
"Weight of Blood",
is a homage to
Stephen King's Carrie.
It is about a girl who
has been passing for White
at the behest of her fanatical
father until a surprise
rainstorm pukes up her hair and
exposes her darkest secret to
the class, which then she, of
course, is tormented and bullied
and it goes viral.
And the school is worried that
the school may
start to look racist.
So they decide to host
their first integrated prom as
a lot of schools still host
segregated proms
even to this day.
But some students are not
interested in changing tradition
and they are planning to pull
one more prank on Maddy.
But what they don't know is
Maddy has another secret that's
going to cost them all
their lives.
[all laugh]
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Lighthearted stuff.
Ryan. Tell us about "The Honey".
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yes.
>> Ryan La Sala: My secrets
never cost people their lives.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
I don't know about that.
>> Ryan La Sala: Oh, gosh.
So "The Honeys" is a story of a
genderfluid teen named Mars,
who is investigating
the death of their sister.
And they think that their
sister's death.
And it was very sort of
traumatic and very sudden.
They think it has to do with
these girls that their sister
was hanging out with that
summer camp at the Aspen Summer
Academy in the
Catskills Mountains.
And these girls at the summer
camp, they're called The Honeys.
And they sort of exert this
power upon the people around
them because they're like
popular and they're beautiful
and they're smart and
they're kind to Mars.
But at the same time, Mars is
sort of the one person at the
camp that is kind of immune to
the spell that they're casting
on everyone else. And Mars is
absolutely convinced that these
girls, despite their like,
cloying sweetness, have
something to do with the
sister's death and maybe with
the disappearances that are
happening around camp. And maybe
even with the blood-red honey
that the real beehive the girls
maintain, you know, is produced
once, once a summer.
And so Mars is trying to kind
of figure out what the
connections are there.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah, the
Red honey was incredible,
and we had to stop reading
to breathe a little bit
before we kept going.
So we spent the summer with
a few teens who did a Zoom
internship with us, and they
each wrote questions about
a book they were assigned.
So I have a question for you
from Abigail.
For both of you,
who's in New Hampshire,
if you're live streaming.
Have you two always been
drawn to the horror genre?
And if not, how did
you get into it?
>> Ryan La Sala:
Yeah. What about you?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Absolutely. Yeah.
I've been watching horror
since I was four years old.
It basically explains all that.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Not even sarcastic.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Yes.
I was literally watching like,
you know, all the cousins gather
at your grandma's house and we
would, like, get the videotapes.
I know that's like making me
ancient and historic here, but
yeah, like, I've been watching,
like Freddy Krueger and Jason
and everything since I was like
a really young girl and even,
like, my reading taste, I went
literally from Goosebumps to
Stephen King and
nothing in between.
So I've always been
in that genre per say.
And though I started in
thrillers, it makes sense.
That's very much
the cousin of horror.
So yeah, I've always been
into it.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Just kept
diving deeper and deeper.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Yes,
Yes. Until I finally, you know,
was brave enough to
sort of cross this road
because I think that writing
horror is incredibly hard.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Absolutely.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Yeah.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Yeah. I love the spooky stuff.
I love it. Spooky Season
is my favorite season.
It's also a year-round in
my household.
They never take down the
Halloween decorations.
And I've always been
drawn to like, you know, I'm a
squeamish person. I watch
everything through my--my hands
when I'm watching horror, and
I'm, like, very jumpy.
But I still really love the
sensation of being scared,
and sort of like the catharsis
that kind of comes with, like,
getting to learn about what
unsettles you, what frightens
you. And so I've always
absorbed a lot of horror. And
I don't read a ton of it, but I
do watch a lot of movies and
shows that are kind of darker
in nature.
And I think a big part of what
got me into writing horror was
I'm always like, you know, I've
been waiting for years to watch
the girl in the woods being
chased by the person with a
knife have that moment where
she gets to turn around and
slaughter them instead.
And I wanted to kind of write
that. And so that's kind of what
got me into sort of
a revenge fantasy.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Yes.
>> Ryan La Sala: Yeah.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Which actually. Yeah,
"Weight of Blood" is very
much a revenge fantasy
in a lot of in a dark way.
>> Ryan La Sala: Yeah. Yeah.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
They're twins, right?
>> Sasha Dowdy: You two met
each other like two weeks ago.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yeah. For the first time.
>> Sasha Dowdy: And now
you're besties. I love it.
And so these both titles you
did touch on it, touch on it
a little bit but they do dive
deeper into horror.
And in your author's notes, you
mentioned that these two books
are more personal
to you, even in yours
Tiffany, you had said the book
you're holding is my nightmare.
So can you tell us a little
more about that?
And I know it is more personal
so we don't have to go too deep,
but we would love to hear more
about that.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Well,
I think this was what made me
so nervous to write
"Weight of Blood".
This is the first book,
despite all of the press and
hubbub about banned books and
everything like that about me,
this is actually the first book
I ever wrote that actually
directly addressed racism. And
directly addressed lightskin
privilege. Like this is the
first book that actually, like,
gave into that. And it made me
really nervous and I've been
avoiding it. This is my sixth
solo YA. And a lot of people
have had this misconception
about everything else that I've
written, and this is the first
time I'm actually like kind of
like leaning into what everyone
already thinks about me.
So yeah, it frightens me.
It also frightened me to sort
of take on this title that,
a homage to Stephen King that's
already like nerve wracking
because we have
rabid fans out there.
And so I think a lot
of it made me nervous.
But yeah, if it doesn't scare
you, it's not like big enough,
those type of like dreams.
And so therefore I like, I
chased after it and it was,
I mean, it was really cathartic
to write this, especially in the
midst of the George Floyd
protests and everything else
in between in the middle
of this pandemic.
That's never going to end.
I felt like this was such
a release for me to write
something that was so dark
and I got so scary with it.
So yeah, I'm really proud of it.
>> Sasha Dowdy: I'm glad you
found that moment of catharsis
because we're like
building and building and
building inside of ourselves.
And the fact that you were able
to let it out and feel
the relief, the catharsis.
It's a beautiful thing.
So that means
all of you write your stories.
Your stories all matter.
>> Ryan La Sala: Yeah.
I think a big part of what
and this is in the author's note
on "The Honeys" and a big part
of why I had to write that book
is because I have dealt
with a lot of the things
that Mars dealt
with in that book.
In 2018, my sister
passed away very suddenly
and thank God it wasn't
anywhere near as traumatic as
Mars' sister's death.
Her name's Caroline in the book,
but the experience of sort of
being one moment to the next,
having a person next to you
and then having them gone,
what replaces a person?
But sort of this emptiness,
this vacuum, sort of the space
between stars and a
constellation. Right.
And I wanted to, I wanted to
explore that because I never
really had a chance to deal
with it in a real way until
suddenly during the pandemic,
I was completely by myself.
And I had had the ideas for "The
Honeys" for a very long time,
well before my sister's passing.
And I'd never started it.
And it never really made sense
until suddenly I kind of had
this, like, horrible,
illuminating grief to work with.
And that's why the book, despite
being very dark and very scary,
is sort of very luminous and
very floral and sort of very
cloying. Because in many ways
that kind of mimics the way that
grief takes your life and
lights it up with a very
spooky hauntedness. Right?
Like your house becomes haunted
when suddenly someone's gone
from it. And I wanted to
explore that, but in sort of the
natural environment with a lot
of metaphors around what happens
to someone when they're no
longer a person, when they
become sort of dispersed into
all the things that they loved.
And for Mars, that's
the summer camp.
And for a long time, I
didn't let myself touch a lot of
those emotions until it was
absolutely necessary.
And I'm very glad that I'm, I'm
not glad that I suppressed it,
but I am glad that I tapped
into it because it kind of
helped me write a pretty raw
emotion that I needed to kind of
get out of myself
and onto a page.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
You found your way out
of these things
you were holding in.
And books are beautiful
that way,
especially when you write them.
You talk about how
this book is set in summer
and it's bright and horror's
usually in the dark and
the ghosts are like.
So you talked a little bit
about it, but tell us
if there's any other reasons
why we're in daylight?
This comparison to
Midsommar, all of this stuff.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Fear of the darkness has
never made sense to me, in part
because as a
visibly queer person,
I'm most exposed and I'm most
vulnerable when I'm lit
up, when I'm on stage,
when people can see me and
decide things about me.
And I often remembered, you
know, the sensation of being at
summer camp at night and
getting to like, go up into my
bunk. And I was alone and I
felt so safe in that darkness.
And that's a big part of why
"The Honeys" is a book about
things that happen in broad
daylight is in part because of
the grief that I just talked
about, but also because
oftentimes the horrors that
happen to people, especially
especially marginalized people,
happen in broad daylight before
people that can't
necessarily recognize
that they're happening.
It's only visible
to the person that's
the victim of it.
And so I wanted to write
about a character, Mars,
who's very shrewd,
very perceptive,
and is seeing something evolving
in broad daylight in front of
all of these people and adults.
Everyone's witnessing it. But
only Mars seems to understand
that there's something horrific
about it, and only Mars is
trying to kind of ring a bell
that no one seems
to be able to hear.
And I love that.
I think that's so much more
unsettling because
a really savvy predator
is the kind
that can stalk you
in broad daylight.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah, and it can
be harder to hide your secrets
in the wide open, right?
So maybe people don't even
suspect you have dark secrets.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Yeah.
>> Sasha Dowdy: And then.
>> Ryan La Sala: Exactly. It's
much more insidious, I think.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Very insidious.
And what about you, Tiffany?
Your story is also
set in daylight mostly.
So why did you decide to do
that kind of setting where
our character isn't
in the dark much?
She's out and about.
She's visible at all times.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I mean, that was actually
a part of her fears.
Her biggest fear was the fact
that she was biracial,
and she was trying to
pretend like she didn't have.
But she wasn't that
she was just white.
And that fear, which a lot of
black people, especially people
that have been passing and was
trying to get away with it,
in a lot of ways, you know, that
is that did I mean, I don't know
if you know what really what
fear is, especially around that
time. And just holding that in
and holding your breath
every moment. And for her.
Her biggest like
indicator was her hair.
Her hair used to like,
poof out in a way.
And her father actually
her white father would...
There're scenes where you see
them or he's working
with a hot comb to make sure
her hair is bone straight
as much as humanly possible.
And then basically he drilled
in her every day.
You cannot get your hair wet,
like you cannot participate in
gym. You cannot like any
moisture in the air, nothing.
And just to live in that fear
all the time has been because
he knew mostly what her high
school, even though this
book is based in present-day,
he knew what her high
school would do to her.
And that says a lot about a lot
of different people's
experiences, even to this day,
even in 2022.
So I think that's something
that to be said, that
when racism is so in the light,
it is terrifying.
And that is a lot of what
Maddy actually has to
go through as well too.
And the fact that she is out in
the world being scared all the
time, she didn't even make the
choice to hide who she is.
Yeah, like that was her father's
choice, and she was confused
by it and very manipulated.
But yet she realized that even
she had peaks, that even if she
did come out of "the closet",
you know,
she would not be treated well.
And that is something that a
lot of black kids who and myself
included, though I wasn't
passing in my high school years,
I, you know, I was very quiet in
my high school.
I mean, I don't know if they
would agree with you, but
I mean, but like, I was pretty
quiet and low-key and having to
sort of like steal my blackness
because that was too much for
people to handle. Because I went
to a predominately
white high school. I was
like one of like nine.
And so having being too black,
you know, would make you
a target in a lot of ways from
both teachers and students.
And that's something that Maddy
definitely experienced as well.
So I think that that was
something that I wanted to touch
upon in a way. And use that as a
vehicle and specifically use
prom as a vehicle to talk about
the story, to talk about kind of
the insidious nature of
microaggression and the way that
has affected everyone,
including people that you think
are your allies, how that sort
of played into Maddy and why
she truly is the
victim of this story.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Right. That was really difficult
to read about these things
that she was going through.
But when you're describing
yourself as a younger kid,
that actually sounds like
the character of Kendrick.
And can you tell us more
about what that was like
creating him and his two names?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yes. So Kendrick, which
he's called Kenny
in the book, is,
for lack of a better word, the
token black guy of the school.
You know, he's a star
super football player.
He's black. And, you know,
he only has white friends.
He's sort of like, you know,
kind of coveted by his school
because he's making
it to like this big.
But I don't know much about
football. So forgive me if I'm
going to like put other terms.
But he's like going to this
great college and his girlfriend
is white. And he's starting to
realize as they, as he realized
what they put Maddy through,
all those friends like
teasing her. And so, you know,
creating her as an outcast
and bullying her,
he realized like kind of
he's starting to see how like
ugly his friends can be. And the
way that, you know, sometimes
that they would do little
microaggression things like,
you know, if they
were all in a car,
they would immediately
turn on some hip-hop
because he's in the car,
like he tried to sort of
swallow that and pretend
like it didn't bother him.
But then the more, the more that
he got to know Maddy because
his girlfriend asked him to
take Maddy to the prom,
because, of course, a black and
black person going to the prom
is much better, much optically
better for their school who are
trying to do this whole
integrated prom.
A lot of times Kendrick was
starting to see how like ugly
his friend's actions were and
didn't know how to actually
approach it and how to actually
verbalize the fact that, like
this makes him uncomfortable,
makes him unhappy.
And there are so many of those
type of kids out there
who sort of like swallow their
real feelings until they like,
boil up until their senior year
and until they can escape.
So that's kind of
the--the and the--
the genesis of Kenny/Kendrick.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Yeah, he was a great character.
And the way that he had to deal
with the racist things happening
to him and his attitudes
from his friends.
It seemed like it's harder to
respond when it's more subtle,
when it's a microaggression.
He didn't really react.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Because oftentimes when we
when microaggressions happen,
and black people
actually address them like,
"Hey, that wasn't cool."
We are called oversensitive.
We're like, kind of like gaslit
in terms of like,
"Oh, you're being oversensitive.
It wasn't that deep,"
you know, all that kind
of stuff. And that's,
and I've been
like kind of living
with that all of my life, even
now in publishing, like,
but you tend to then
sort of get tired.
And so a lot of times
Kenny was just tired.
He wouldn't even address it.
He would just ignore it
or pretend like, oh, I have
to go to some other activity
or just pretend like, you
know, he didn't hear it all.
People noticed that especially
the other black students
in the school were like,
you know, you're obvious.
And so he felt like an outcast
among his peers, and also
an outcast among
the other black kids
who were in the
school as well, too.
>> Sasha Dowdy: It was a
fascinating journey for me,
a person who cannot
understand your experience
to see that in such a raw way.
Beautiful writer.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Thank you.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Ryan, we
just talked about outcasts.
Tell us about Mars.
Everything about him.
Well, about them, because
they made a lot of choices
about their name,
their identity,
and how they're perceived.
>> Ryan La Sala: Sure, sure.
So I love Mars as a character.
It was really quite the honor
to kind of get to write
someone like that, Mars.
And now it's going to sound
like I'm complimenting myself,
but Mars and I have
a lot in common.
So what an honor to
look in the mirror.
And, you know, I
clearly have always blended in.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Earth to Ryan.
[all laugh]
>> Ryan La Sala: So Mars
is gender fluid, and sort of
has this like ongoing tension
with people around him.
Because Mars even
says this in the book
that at a certain point,
you know, everyone thinks
Mars is a boy because Mars
tried to kind of offset their
femininity and would like
work out and do sports.
And it kind of gave them this
like more like muscular
physique. But at the same time,
Mars is like gender-fluid, and
kind of has this argument that,
like, it really doesn't matter.
Like the body that I have.
It's how I feel.
And everyone sort of like nods
along, not really hearing this
until he meets The Honeys. And
they're the very first people
and this is not a spoiler or
anything, but they're the very
first people to sort of see
Mars and, and sort of understand
Mars on Mars' terms.
There's like a formal that
happens in the book before
and this is actually
my summer camp did this
they had like a battle of
the sexes at summer camp.
And that's like when
you're not like
really on either side of that
battle. Like you're like the
Sweden of battle of the sexes.
Like, what are you
going to do, right?
Like when people
are like, all right,
divide it into boys and girls,
which is often a thing that
happens at like summer camp
in like, activities, like
you're kind of in the middle
in a summer camp,
like what's in the middle
of boys and girls camp.
Literally like un
navigable woods, bear traps,
you know, horrible things
like you really shouldn't be
running around. And Mars sort
of falls very clearly into that,
like un navigable area.
But at the same time, like is
really masterful about it.
And at a certain point even
explains to another camper that
like, you know, here at this
camp, there's a whole lake
between the boys and the girls
camp and where I really prefer
to be sort of drifting out on
that lake, like,
that's my identity,
that's my gender.
And most people, if they would
just step off the shore and sort
of let themselves drift even
for a few feet, would see how
many shores this lake has, and
they would really be able to
understand the full breadth of
like identity that like
they could have
and have access to.
But you never know that if
you're just standing on the
shore looking out at what's
opposite of you.
And Mars is sort of like, I'm
really glad that I got to kind
of write that conversation into
a book because for a long time
with my writing, I was a little
bit coy around things that
I wanted to talk
about on the page.
I sort of was like,
"Oh, like the readers
that get it will get it."
I think people that are gay
are going to understand this
and anybody else,
if they walk away
with a new idea like, great.
But now Mars is sort of this new
character approach that I have
where I'm like, "No, I'm going
to make a character kind of
talk about this on the page."
And already the response has
been very vibrant and very
appreciative of discussions
like that, because I think
it gives people
words to describe
maybe things that
they're going through,
like their own experiences.
So that's what I mean
when I say like it's an honor,
it's kind of an honor
to kind of take a pedagogic
approach to writing a character
that has my identity and is
able to put into words things
that I could not have put into
words at that age.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Yeah, Mars is extremely astute
and I love that they have
moments of calmness and quiet,
just like the lake scenes that
you're describing as well as
tumultuous storms happening
in their head. So that was
fantastic characterization.
So you all need to read it.
If you haven't.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
It's amazing.
>> Sasha Dowdy: It is.
I have another question from one
of our teens and she wanted to
know, could you touch on the
importance of including queer
characters in literature,
especially in the horror genre?
>> Ryan La Sala: Oh, my gosh.
Yeah.
Well, I mean, first and
foremost, queer people, I want
I'm glad everyone is seated
because I don't want anyone
to pass out. We do
exist in real life.
[all laugh]
We're all around you right now.
Are the queer people
in the room?
Yes, they are out there.
They are. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah. So I kind of
maintain that we also deserve
to be in fantasy
as well, you know?
And I feel like for the longest
time, if I ever read about,
like, a queer character in a
book, it was usually some
drag queen teaching some girl
how to have confidence
by curling her lashes. And I
was like, "God bless that girl.
I hope she does great at the
talent show, but I want to know
what that drag queen
is doing later."
Like, what is she up to?
Does she not have goals?
What's her 401k like?
What's her plan for after drag?
Right. Like, and I have always
maintained that like queer
people kind of have an agenda
of their own. And things to do
other than like kind of act as
a lesson learned usually because
they're dead by the end of
someone else's story.
Right. And so I have always
written with this mission
in mind of kind of writing this
scale and writing a new
mythology around queerness, one
that has, you know, of course,
the stories that we need to
know about coming out, but also
that is inflected with
complexity and victory and joy
and despair and grief.
And that's like, you know,
that's why queer people should
be in horror. I also maintain,
no offense to the heterosexual
people, I see a few of you.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
We're ready to be offended.
>> Ryan La Sala:
I just think we're kind of
better at certain things.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Like?
>> Ryan La Sala: Well,
okay, for instance,
Mars' super power
in "The Honeys" is that
he gets to camp and he
recognizes that there's
something very wrong about the
way the camp both like holds
up these girls. The honeys as
like, perfect, but also outright
dismisses them. In society,
we sort of have this
pathological dismissal of girls
that are pretty and their
frivolity. And the acts of like
their communion
between one another.
We see that as just a mean girl
culture, and we don't really
pick away at what that might be
hiding. In Mars, someone who's
very experienced on how to
construct a gendered performance
because he has watched these
kind of people for years
with envy. Right.
And with a good deal of
contempt, understands that
potentially what these girls
are doing is not simply
frivolity or ceremony for the
sake of ceremony, perhaps.
And this is the lesson
we learn from nature.
The sweetest, most bright
things in nature are often
camouflage for something
poisonous, something toxic
and something dangerous.
And he's right.
And that's a queer superpower.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
That is enviable.
>> Ryan La Sala:
I will take my Pulitzer now.
[all laugh]
Thank you. Thank you.
>> Sasha Dowdy: This
conversation is forever recorded
by the Library of Congress.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Can you believe that?
[all laugh]
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
That they allowed us here.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Oh, my gosh. Hi. Posterity.
Good to see you.
>> Sasha Dowdy: More than
excited to have you here
and just hear your
stories and your voices.
>> Ryan La Sala:
And what an honour?
Tiffany's like a hero of mine.
And getting to do this
together is lovely.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: I'm
like, And we're so much fun too.
>> Ryan La Sala:
And we're so much fun.
And you're having fun.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
We are having fun.
You touched a little bit upon
the stereotypes, and actually
really like what you touched
upon of people dismissing girls
as the final girl thing of the
virginal girl is the what...
Can I say that? It's fine,
is the one who doesn't
get killed and Mars
does not accept these things
as mean girl, or too
pretty or anything
and actually stays, evaluates,
makes their own opinion.
We need that a lot.
>> Ryan La Sala: Yeah.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah.
Tiffany, can you talk about the
characters in the horror genre?
Because again, kind of like the
bury your gays trope,
the black characters get
killed off really quickly.
So your book is the
protagonists are all black,
and there's white people,
but they're the villains.
They're the good, they're good
ones, they're villains.
But the protagonists are not
killed, are not threatened that
kind of way that you would
expect from a horror movie, like
you would start it
and you'll be like,
"That guy's going to die."
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I mean, well, let me check.
How many of you've actually
watched or seen or read
"Carrie", any version of it?
So you guys
kind of know the end.
[all laugh]
This is no secret.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Looking for a bucket.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
There's no secret about that.
I guess one of the things
that I realized when I was
growing up, I didn't realize
right away is like, you know,
the black characters were
always being murdered.
Also, the queer characters were
always being murder.
And I was like,
"That's impossible."
Like, we don't go to
a creaky basement. We hear
something upstairs.
We out. Like it's impossible for
this to actually happen.
So, like, even when I was a
young girl.
I used to be like,
"Oh, that's dumb."
Like, right? Like, I was like
the five-year-old who was
watching like, "Chucky" and be
like, "You know, that doll is
moving. I am not doing this."
I ain't doing this, I'm not
dealing with this today,
like exactly. And so
oftentimes, even with my first
horror book, "White Smoke,"
which was a haunted house book,
there were moments in there
where you know,
Maddy was just kind of
like, "Nope, I can't."
Like that's a constant
thread of like black people.
And so one of the things
that when I thought about
the idea of black people having
some type of superpower, like
telekinesis, it's like, what
would we do with that?
And what would society do if
they knew that we had that type
of power? Like the fear, like
the idea. Like, you know,
there's I think the author,
Kimberly Jones, once mentioned
like, you know, lucky like, you
know, we want justice and not
revenge. I was like, imagine if
we had the opportunity to have
revenge?
>> Sasha Dowdy: Please
keep writing forever.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: So I
think that also sort of like
blended into the idea
because Carrie is actually one
of my favorite horror stories,
and I can't tell you why,
mostly because there is like
this unsettling silence
about her.
And I was also that kid who
felt like that unsettling
silence, like, I wish she knew
how powerful I was
until you snap. And then
you hold in all this emotion
and then you snap.
Like Carrie was like the first
kind of like, you know, first 48
snap on, like, weed TV
and stuff like that.
She was like the
first type of person.
So I wanted to sort of embody
that in this book.
And it's honestly the first
book that I wrote, like,
you know, white main characters.
And so that was fun.
And everyone was kind of like,
"Wow, you write white
people really good."
I was like, "Yeah, I've been
reading y'all all my life."
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Your stories are everywhere.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: I was
like, "What do you expect?
I grew up to know how you like.
You know you can't do me.
But I could do you." Like.
So I think that that was
something that was really, like,
fun. And this is very much
a creative challenge.
I had to study telekinesis.
You guys all know how, like,
I get really deep into the
research of my books.
So of course I like, infiltrate
this, like, telekinesis group
on Facebook and like, and like,
you know, and let me just
tell you, during, like,
the height of the pandemic,
I deadass thought I could,
like, lift a pen.
Like, I was
really like, I was like
and I think I was like
texting Lamar Giles.
I was like, "I have to get out
this house."
Like, "I'm not going
to make it."
But yeah, it was like.
>> Ryan La Sala: I also
thought you could lift a pen.
So I was...
>> Sasha Dowdy:
We all believe you, right now.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Does anyone have a pen?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Like, we could try.
But, yeah, it was really fun
getting to this point
of loving on horror
characters that,
or putting love into
horror characters
and making sure
that people know that
black people belong in horror.
I get a lot of questions like,
you know, especially during
like, interviewing and stuff
like that.
People are like, "When are you
going to write about black joy?"
And I'm like, I write in the
genre of horror and thrillers."
Like, do you ask Stephen King
when he's going
to write a romance?
>> Sasha Dowdy: It brings
you joy. That's enough.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Like, why is it that it's
such a surprise to
see a black woman
or a queer man in this space?
Like, why are you so confused
by our existence?
And so I usually try to
boomerang those type of
questions back, like, you know,
sounds like you've never, you
know, walked outside your own,
like, you know, four borders
like. And it's like, "Oh, no.
I didn't mean like that."
Yes, you did.
[audience laughing]
>> Ryan La Sala:
The predominant genre
of many people's lives in a
marginalized space
is one of horror.
Even if we're surviving,
even if we're thriving,
even if we're sort of
getting to the other side
and escaping
whatever's chasing us.
It's a--it's a
survival narrative.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Yes.
Like black people literally
have been living a horror
like most of our existence.
And you're like, why wouldn't
we be in the genre?
Why wouldn't be? Like
we should be sort of like
overpowering the genre.
So even when,
like Jordan Peele came
out with "Get Out".
People were seem to be
shocked by this.
I was like, "Of course we know
how to do horror.
We've literally been
living it our entire life."
>> Ryan La Sala:
Call it a qualification.
Ap Horror for most of my life.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yes. It's
way more visceral this way.
And we have had such a surge
of books that are not just
diverse characters, all kinds
of backgrounds, but their own
voices. And it's crazy that
it's a new thing, but your own
voice, other people don't get
to tell you what kind of stories
to tell. And please keep
writing horror.
Please keep writing the queer
magical realism.
It's amazing.
Your books have not only great
characters and fascinating plot,
and are so good at ripping your
heart out.
They also are beautifully
written.
They have that craft, that
symbolism, and it's not like
English class. It's more fun to
find these things.
So can you talk about your
craft and the symbolism
that you put into your work?
Yes. Ryan, tell us, what does
honey symbolize?
>> Ryan La Sala: Honey
is the closest thing
that we have on
Earth to ambrosia.
A honeybee spends its
entire life making 1/12 of
a teaspoon of honey. So when
you're sweetening your tea
or coffee or whatever, that's
the life's work of 12 bees.
And a honey bee flies to about
8 million flowers to produce
a jar of honey right in the path
of a flight of a honeybee.
If you add it up like the hives
flight path will circumvent the
world one and one half times
just for a jar of honey.
So when you're taking honey
into your system, when you're
tasting the depth of that
flavor, you are tasting the
depth of an entire ecosystem
and everything that went into
generating that. And I think
that's such an interesting way
to conceptualize a mirror in a
way for to conceptualize a
connection and to sort of bring
someone back down to earth.
In "The Honeys",
there's a refrain
that Mars' sister sort of always
uses to kind of get Mars'
out of like daydreams.
And Caroline often says,
"Earth to Mars," you know.
And it's a pun because Mars
name is Marshalls. But he goes
by Mars. And I also wanted
to kind of take that an extra
step and say, you know, really
what, Mars is missing.
As someone who's recently
grieving the loss and sort of is
dealing with this very sudden
separation from reality, is that
connectedness to
everything else.
And that's kind of what happens
when you're dealing with grief.
You become lonely.
And so Mars is missing that
connection to the earth, and
he's missing that connection to
kind of the ambient ecology
and environment around him.
And that's kind of what the
honeys give back to him.
But that's also what honey like
is when you taste it.
So. There's more to this.
I know a lot of bee facts, let
me tell you.
There's a ton of bee facts
up in here.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Yeah, there is a lot, but
I can only touch on a few.
We have an hour. That's it?
>> Ryan La Sala:
Yeah, I'll stop.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Can you also talk about
the symbol of the camp?
And you touched on the
environment a couple of times.
Tell us what went into
your construction of this camp
for rich people.
>> Ryan La Sala:
So I'll spare you sort of the
history lesson here.
But there is a lot of history
that goes into what a summer
camp is, but at its surface
and sort of in its current
manifestation, a summer camp is
sort of like this, like
simulated natural
environment, right?
Because it's basically like
rich people send their children
to like have encounters with
nature, but like in a very safe
way that ends with
friendship bracelets.
Right. And there's this like
paradox there, because it's like
it's all safe, but you're still
dealing with like team building
and nature. But at the end of
the day, when the sun goes down
and when the adults look away,
you are in the woods
and you really can
never suppress nature.
There's something very
immutable about like the chaos
that is always going to be
surrounding you when you're in a
cabin in the woods,
you cannot escape it.
And that's why the camp horror
genre is just so interesting
because it's supposed to be
this fun, histologic, beautiful
thing. But if you are a queer
person that went to summer camp,
you know, the--the patina of
nostalgia that Americana
was probably never
available to you.
And if you're a poor person,
that sort of had to catch up
with a lot of people going to
these summer camps because
you're there, you know, like
charity or something like that,
you don't have the same access
to kind of these like
foundational summer baked
golden memories that seem to
serve as like nostalgia for the
rest of people's lives.
They're talking about something
that your standing in yet don't
have access to, and I wanted to
write about it.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
That's great. And that sense of
exclusion is so well portrayed.
And Tiffany, your book is also
lovely in its creation and the
format of true crime podcasts.
And you do have a lot of
precisely constructed sentences
and they use words
like monster a lot.
So just tell us about this true
crime podcast format that you
really wanted to use and the
monstrous ness that surrounds
that format. Your book.
Everything. You have 5 minutes.
[all laugh]
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: So
"The Weight of Blood" is told
very much in podcast episodes,
and like excerpts from like
media and stuff like that.
It's very much an interactive
kind of experience, which is a
callback actually to my first
book. "Allegedly",
it was also told
without the podcast, but told
and sort of like excerpts and I
love like mixed media format.
I love being able to like pull
you in and actually have you
a part of the journey
specifically of this podcast.
This guy is trying to know if
Maddy is real, and one of the
things I loved about it was
like, I got a chance to sort of
like dive into the history
without actually, like giving
you a lot of back story because
he was able to interview like
Maddy's neighbor or one of the
kids that was in the class that
actually, like, survived the
prom night.
And so there was a lot of
opportunities to sort of talk
about that. And I for one, like
I love true crime, I love
podcasts as well too obviously
most of my books are true crime
or based off of a true story.
This book is actually no
different. This is actually
loosely inspired by the 2014
first integrated prom that
happened in a town like maybe 2
hours from Atlanta that happened
in 2014. There's about, there's
several towns in the south that
still have segregated proms.
Because proms are actually like,
some proms are not school
sanctioned events.
They're like outside events.
So they're still able to sort
of like have their white prom
and their black prom.
And this particular school that
was covered back in 2014,
the town was very divided.
A lot of people were like, no,
we don't want to like, do
an integrated prom. And some
people were like,
Yeah, let's do it. So they
still had an integrated prom
and they also still had
their white prom as well, too.
Some people like refused to go.
And a lot of people were they
were not shy. They were not
embarrassed about the fact that
they did not want to change
this tradition.
And some schools I even research
where they did it for one year,
and then reverted back to doing
segregated prom. Like it wasn't
worth the hassle and all the
media attention,
stuff like that. So I was
incredibly fascinated by that,
by the fact that it was we are
in the 21st, 22nd century,
21st century or
something like that.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
We are in 2022.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
We are in the Jetsons era
and we should not still be
having segregated proms like,
I'm sorry, that's the dumbest
thing I've ever heard of.
But it was all over
CNN and I thought
it was really fascinating. And
I wanted to sort of use that.
I mean, what better way to talk
about racism and politics
than a prom? A prom is probably
a teen's first like
major political event.
In a lot of ways where
there's classism and racism
and everything else in between,
there's voting, there's
kings and queens, there's all
kinds of like. There's budgets.
If you've ever been to a prom,
you know, like it's actually
expensive to go to.
Between the dress and the car
and everything else in between.
And then you also have to,
like, worry about your heart
being broken by like a date or
like, you know.
Now kids are doing like prom.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Promposals.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Stuff
like that. That costs money.
Like, there's a lot to be
learned from the real world,
from a prom experience.
And I thought, what a better
way to sort of like explain
the way microaggression and how
like, you know, what happens
when you take it too far in
terms of bullying happens,
then mixing Carrie with a prom
and bringing in segregated
aspects to it as well, too.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Yeah, that's the perfect setting
since there's that exclusion.
But that Ryan has to,
like, we all technically have
access to prom, but.
But we don't.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
But we don't all go.
I didn't go to my senior prom.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Yeah. And there are reasons.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
You almost fainted.
You're like, what?
>> Ryan La Sala:
I did go to prom. I actually won
prom king and prom queen
at the same time.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Stop. We can only hope.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Wait, hold on. But.
They thought that I was
being hate crimed,
so they didn't give me
prom queen at the prom.
Because they thought
it was going to be like
a Carrie Esque situation.
They thought that I was
about to, like, be like
something horrible is
going to happen, right?
So that's how I won.
I actually won prom queen.
But they gave me prom king, and
I was retroactively compensated.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Retroactively. Fixing the past.
>> Ryan La Sala:
But I campaigned for prom queen.
I deserved it.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah, you did.
>> Ryan La Sala:
I earned it.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
But we all know this.
We were not there,
but we all know it.
We have Q and A pretty soon,
but we are going to do lightning
round of questions so
that we get to know you.
All right, we have 5 minutes.
Let's go. And you can just take
turns.
Ryan, Tiffany, Ryan, Tiffany.
Favorite horror movie.
>> Ryan La Sala: Suspiria.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Oh, nice.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Strangers.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Nice. Oh, yeah.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yeah.
>> Sasha Dowdy: I
like. I like this.
Okay scariest villain
of all time.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Him from the Powerpuff Girls.
[audience laugh]
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
The guy from Saw.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Oh, God. Yeah.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Unsettling. Yes.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Those cheeks.
>> Ryan La Sala: Don't
trust people on a tricycle.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah. Yeah.
And you read R.L. Stine.
So you were already scarred?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yes.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Okay.
Least favorite, but secretly,
your favorite trope
in Y.A. literature?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Least favorite trope.
>> Sasha Dowdy: You
know, like love triangle.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Heterosexuality.
[all laugh]
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
It's a trope.
>> Sasha Dowdy: It is a
trope. Look it up on Snopes.
Not snopes the other one?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I don't know. I don't know
if I have a least favorite,
actually. Like all of it.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
What's your favorite then?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I love the "Love Triangle".
I love the little like cute
love triangle.
Especially like in fantasies
and stuff like that.
Like, you know, if even we go
back to Twilight, like, I was
definitely Team Edward,
but, you know,
I love the little team, Jacob.
>> Ryan La Sala: That's fine.
I just think I was team Charlie.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Yes.
>> Ryan La Sala: Not as Bella's
love obviously, but my love.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
When it just came out.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yeah. Yes.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Good.
That's all I have to say. Okay.
Song you've been
really into lately.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Oh, what's the. What's the,
alien superstar? Clearly. Yes.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I was going to say
Beyonce's "Cuff It".
>> Ryan La Sala: Yeah, right.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
We live in a good time.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Oh, pure honey. Sorry.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yeah. Yeah, I was about to say.
>> Ryan La Sala:
We'll get that in post.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Yes, we will.
Ryan, this is kind of more for
you, but who is your drag queen?
>> Ryan La Sala: Sasha Velour.
>> Sasha Dowdy: What about
you, Tiffany? Do you have one?
>> Ryan La Sala:
Ryan La Sala.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Can that be?
>> Ryan La Sala: No.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I was like, I don't know,
I guess I'll go classic.
I'll go RuPaul.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Yes, RuPaul is great.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yeah, I'll go to RuPaul.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
There's a lot of power there.
Use three words to describe
the worst date you've ever had.
>> Ryan La Sala: Oh, my gosh.
>> Worst date.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Date.
>> Ryan La Sala: Maine.
The setting, The state. Car.
There was a car.
I don't remember much else.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
So it was Maine, car?
>> Ryan La Sala: He was he had
like a very messy apartment.
There was nothing I could do
about it because I was in Maine.
I hated it.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: I'm
trying to think of three words.
That's not enough.
It's not enough.
Like Stevie Wonder hair.
Like. No, no, seriously.
The man was, like, bald up here
and had, like, three dreads,
like, hanging on for life.
And that was not in
his profile picture.
And then so that.
>> Ryan La Sala: He had taken
the dreads and put them forward.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Yes. And
then I saw it and I was like,
"Oh, wow." Like, you
know, you ever, like,
get drunk and you
sober up immediately.
That was me.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Snapped you right out.
If we visited your
hometown, tell us
what it is and the tastiest
place to eat.
>> Ryan La Sala: West Hartford,
Connecticut is my hometown,
and I don't think it's really
known for anything
other than a lot
of Dunkin Donuts.
>> Sasha Dowdy: So you're
saying leave that town
and go to New York
and eat something?
>> Ryan La Sala: That's good.
My mom's cooking is really good,
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Oh, Ryan's mom's house.
>> Ryan La Sala: Yeah. My mom
said you come over, come over.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I would say Brooklyn.
And there's so many places,
but there's a restaurant
called Soco.
They have, like, the most
amazing red velvet waffles
and fried chicken and macaroni
and cheese, and that's, like,
my jam. So, yeah, that
would be my favorite.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Thank you for
those recommendations for me,
not for anyone else.
Have you ever had
a paranormal experience since
you both have those
elements in your books?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Oh, yeah.
>> Ryan La Sala: Yeah.
>> Sasha Dowdy: It's
Rapid Fire. So I guess
you can get to tell us more.
>> Ryan La Sala: I was like
how long is the lightning?
>> Sasha Dowdy: You have
one and a half minutes.
And I have another one to ask.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Okay. Ask the next one.
>> Ryan La Sala: Well, wait.
You want a one and a half minute
paranormal experience
explanation?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Okay. Go.
>> Ryan La Sala: Oh, God.
This is way too dramatic
of a story to tell
in, like, 30 seconds.
But the day that my
sister passed away, actually,
I was in a cafe, and I did not
know that anything was wrong.
And I was writing.
I remember it was my birthday,
so I had the day off from work
and a bird flew into the cafe,
and was flying around
and no one could catch it.
And finally the bird flew
to me and I caught it,
and I carried the bird outside
and let it go.
And then I got a call
from my parents.
And that's how I found out.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Wow.
>> Ryan La Sala: Yeah.
I'm really sorry.
That's a really sad story.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Yeah, that's incredible.
>> Ryan La Sala:
But it was like it was very much
like the timing was
very, very conspicuous.
And so I do consider it
a paranormal activity.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
That was beautiful.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Thank you for sharing that.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I, so I travel a lot.
I like to do a ghost tours in
most cities, specifically
domestic city, because you
learn a lot about an actual city
based on the ghost tours,
especially the underbelly.
And I went on the Blue Orb tour
in Savannah, Georgia, which
actually Savannah's the most
haunted city in New York.
I mean, I'm sorry, in the
country, not New Orleans.
And we were on a tour I was
with like a drunken couple, and
this guy was taking photos and
caught a ghost.
And I was like, oh,
maybe he's a plant.
But then later on, I went to we
went to what was called
a originally an African burial
ground.
And my tour guide kept saying,
like, if you feel anything
strange, please let us know.
We'll leave the area
immediately. I was like, "Yeah,
sure, guide." And while we were
there, standing there and he was
telling us this whole story,
my side was hurting.
I had like this cramp and I
thought maybe I had the gas,
I had all this barbecue earlier
and I was like throwing it off.
And then and I'm like, standing
there trying to, like, hold it
together. And then when we
left, he turned to me.
He was like, "You were feeling
something." And I realized
it wasn't until we left that I
stopped feeling it and I was
like, oh, it's time to go home.
>> Ryan La Sala: Yeah.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I like, you know, basically
bathed in sage and threw pennies
over my shoulder before I went
into anybody's house.
So, yeah, it was that.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Listen to the ghost.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Something happened there.
>> Ryan La Sala: Spooky.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah.
Final rapid fire question is,
why do you like to torture
your readers?
[audience laughing]
>> Ryan La Sala: Profitable.
[all laugh]
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Yeah, that's a good answer.
I like to torture readers
because I want you to read
a story that you will never
forget. That will really stick
with you. I can't tell you how
many books I've read over the
years where like, you win one
or you're out the other.
I don't remember anything about
it, but when you read my story,
I want you to be mad.
And also I want
you to get active.
Because most of my
stories have a lesson in it.
And specifically for kids.
Like, I want you to remember a
lot of the things that happened
in each of my books because
it's affecting your current like
people around you. So that's
the reason why I do that.
I want you to like, I'm not
going to spoon-feed you lessons,
but I'm going to
give you something
that you'll never forget.
>> Sasha Dowdy: So true.
>> Ryan La Sala:
My actual answer, if I may.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
You got a good ass answer.
>> Ryan La Sala: It is.
It's directly in line with that.
When you are shaken, when you
are sort of like unsettled in a
really specific way, the pieces
don't always fall back in the
same place. You know, that tile
might be a little bit askew and
you do it to kind of peel it up
and see what's underneath.
And I think that's a really
quite incredible thing to kind
of be able to do to someone to
sort of shake them up in
a specific way. And I'm so
grateful for the pieces of art
that have done that to me and
sort of taught me and realigned
me in a really specific way so
that I have a more direct
connection with my fear
and all of the things
that kind of propel me.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yeah,
we all need to be shaken.
>> Ryan La Sala:
I think So.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Shake the table a little bit.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Yes, let's do it.
So this is all we have
for these questions, but
now it's your turn. If you have
a question, come on up
to the mic right here.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
There is a microphone here.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Yes. And you're
welcome to share your name, too.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Hi, I'm Isabella.
And I actually had two
questions for Tiffany Jackson.
Is that okay?
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Only if they're very fast.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Actually, I'll just do one. So
in "Monday's Not Coming",
that story is set here in
Washington, D.C. in Southeast.
And I know that you grew up in
Brooklyn, but then
you went to school at Howard.
And so the way you describe D.C.
is really fascinating, sort of
the relationship between the
character and her environment
and the gentrification
that's happening nearby.
So I was wondering like,
what is your
relationship to this city?
And what inspired you
to write that story here?
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Oh yeah.
So "Monday's Not Coming"
is based here, here based
in Southeast in Anacostia,
and "Borough" is actually
based off of a project
that used to be in that area
that was all torn down.
And I was really fascinated
by that as well too,
especially the basketball games,
the games and stuff like that.
But--but actually that was
loosely inspired by Real Case,
that Banita Jacks case that
happened where five girls were
found in a house while I was
still living here at the time.
And they had been
missing for months.
And I kept asking, how do black
girls just go missing?
No one hears from them,
no family, no nothing.
That would never
happen in my life,
in my specific my personal life.
But then when I started
to really dive deep into
how many black girls are missing
and who aren't getting any
attention, that really sort of
made me wake up and say like,
"Wait, we're not really talking
about black and brown girls
who are missing."
And that sort of
brought me down to like,
what would happen if my
best friend was missing
and what would I do? And so
that really inspired the story.
And of course, you know, I, D.C.
is definitely my second home.
I went to Howard here.
I lived here for
a couple of years,
worked in National Geographic.
Like, you know, it's always
going to be my second home.
And I definitely
love the community here.
And I loved learning
about D.C. culture.
I love go-go, I love mambo
sauce, I love all those things.
So yeah, I'm definitely an
honorary DC girl, so that's what
inspired it. You're all good.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Hi, my name is Matt Ryan.
That paranormal story is crazy
because the exact same thing
pretty much happened to my aunt
when my other aunt died.
>> Ryan La Sala: Wow.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE: Yeah.
Except it was a bat that
flew into her house and
eventually, they
had to get it out.
>> Ryan La Sala:
That's amazing.
Yeah. And that also kind of
leads into my question for you,
because, like, I've also lost
someone very recently during the
pandemic, and it was also when
I was like working on a story
I was writing. So what was it
like for you to take that grief
you were feeling and kind of
put it into your book and find
a way to get it out in a way
that was both
manageable for you,
but also conducive to the
story you were trying to tell?
Yeah, it was fascinating.
And grief is such a chaotic
force that oftentimes if a
creative decision had to be
made, it was sort of made by
that feeling. But it was
ultimately I mean, I feel like
if I can articulate something
to myself, I can tell someone
about it as well. And that's
kind of what journaling is like.
So I actually, with every book
that I write, will keep
a journal alongside of it, where
before I sit down to start
writing for the day, I'll write
about how I'm feeling, and
I have probably about 40,000
words, half the length of the
actual book of me just talking
to myself about this
in a kind of very
therapeutic way.
And so it was very helpful
because those were things that
I hadn't really
unpacked at that level.
But in order to explain them to
a reader, in order to kind of
put them through Mars as a
prism for my own grief, I needed
to kind of have a handle
on it myself.
And I'm very glad.
And I mean, I still cry.
I still get teared up about it.
It's no less visceral for me,
but at least I know
what I'm dealing with.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Wow.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Thank you.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Hi, I'm Simon.
And this question could be for
either of you, whoever wants to
answer. But I know you two kind
of have, I guess, different
levels of experience writing
horror. I know Tiffany,
you've written
more in this genre.
Ryan, you haven't written as
much, but this "The Honeys" is
really like kind of your
biggest, like new horror novel.
And I was wondering, like, how
you two approach horror?
Because as someone that would
really love to be able to write
in the horror genre, it's hard
to know sometimes.
Like what's something that
would be what's something
that's going to be more of a
superficial scare? And what's
something that's going to
really, like, frighten people
and get under their skin?
Like, how do you know?
How can you tell the difference
when you're writing horror?
>> Ryan La Sala: Drag
queens have a saying called
paint for the back row, right?
Like go bold with it.
Because even the people that
are furthest from you sort of
have to see the
expression on your face.
And I have found that the thing
that has guided me in writing
horror is really just going for
it, not shying away from what
scares me and really
understanding why it scares me
so that I can write it as
graphically as possible.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
I found reading mentor texts
specifically helped me sort of
like get into the mode of
horror because it's hard.
It's like it's one of the
hardest genres to write in
because how do you give these
visceral, like, how do you paint
the like, how do you
paint a visual like image
of what it's like to be scared?
Like, how do you write that out?
It's like trying to
explain how music feels.
And so that's one of the things
that I learned is by reading
a lot of different horror in
different capacities,
whether it be,
you know, monsters
or whether it be like
psychopaths and stuff like that.
Just kind of like getting
to that root of it.
So yeah, definitely read as
much as humanly possible to sort
of like maintain and grab those
sort of like key elements.
>> Ryan La Sala:
And test your stuff on people.
Traumatize your friends.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson: Yeah.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Do it.
>> Thank you.
>> Ryan La Sala: Thank you.
>> Sasha Dowdy: We have
about 2 minutes left,
so you'll be the final question,
but there's going to be
a signing line for both.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Hi, I'm Ruby,
fellow visibly queer person.
Let's go.
So this question is
for both of you all.
I was wondering how you think
things might have turned out
differently for y'all if you'd
had access to your books or
books like them when you were
kids? And just been able to see
yourself represented
in a more positive way.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Oh, yes, I would have been
an author much sooner
if I had known
that this was a viable career
and if I wasn't
pushed away from it
and if I knew that,
like, you know
or not only if publishing
actually truly knew that,
black people read.
And they actually honored
that and spoke to that,
yeah, I would have been in
publishing far sooner.
I would have actually majored
in English instead of film.
Like I would have done all
those things if I was told
if I had saw someone like me
come into my high school
or even my elementary school,
I definitely would have
done this way sooner.
But I think it's a lot of fear
that kept me from this.
Fear of trying something new.
There's a point where,
like you stop.
You have to just grow
fearless and just go for it.
So that's really what, to me,
if I had seen me earlier,
I would have been
here much sooner.
>> Ryan La Sala: I sort of
have the opposite experience
where I think if I had read a
lot of like queer characters,
I'm not sure that I would
have gotten started writing.
Because I got started
writing out of spite,
people handing me Twilight
and people kept handing me
Hunger Games and I was like,
"Where are the gay people?
What happens to us
in the future?"
Or Forks Oregon, Like
Washington, whatever it is.
And I just couldn't believe
Twilight was a book about boys
that literally sparkled in body
glitter but never like
kissed each other. That just
didn't make sense to me.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
It didn't sit well.
>> Ryan La Sala: So I
set on this cosmic journey
to right that wrong.
And I wonder if I had
been sated right at like
the level of seeing myself
represented, if I would have
felt that like smoldering spite.
And if that would have propelled
me on to kind of write Reverie,
which I started in high school.
I started it because
I was so bored and
I thought if anybody,
if any idiot can write a book
because these idiots have,
why not this idiot, myself?
And I was right.
>> MEMBER OF AUDIENCE:
Thank you.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Thank you.
[audience clapping]
>> Sasha Dowdy: Thank you
so much for coming here.
It's Tiffany D. Jackson and Ryan
La Sala, everybody.
>> Ryan La Sala:
Thank you to our moderator.
>> Sasha Dowdy:
Thank you so much.
>> Tiffany D. Jackson:
Wonderful questions.
>> Sasha Dowdy: Thank you.
Have a good day, everyone.